In or Out: The EU Referendum BBC News Special

Or what he says, or what he did or did not negotiate in Brussels.

And it's not about him. Or them.

No, this is now all about you, and your country.

The clock is counting down towards the country's

There's 121 days, 10 hours and 30 minutes to go.

On Thursday June 23rd anyone over 18 who's living here and is a British,

Irish or Commonwealth citizen, will have a vote in a referendum

on whether we should be in or out of the European Union -

whether we should stay or go - remain or leave.

"Remain" or "Leave" are the words which will appear

Tonight, the debate begins in the country,

so in this special programme we will debate three key issues -

immigration, jobs and sovereignty - with those who've already made

up their mind, to help you if you've yet to make up yours.

Arguing for out - Ukip leader Nigel Farage,

city chief executive Helena Morrissey,

and Tory Cabinet Minister Chris Grayling.

Ranged against them - arguing that the UK should stay in -

another Conservative Cabinet Minister, Anna Soubry,

and former Labour Home Secretary, Alan Johnson.

Our first - perhaps the most contentious subject - immigration.

By being in the EU, any British citizen can get a job or settle

in the other 27 countries in Europe and, of course,

Lucy Manning looks at how freedom of movement has affected

one British city - Leicester.

It's been named Britain's most diverse road, and the flow

of workers allowed to come to the UK has made its mark.

EU immigration is one of the key issues, and it's something that has

Narborough Road gives you a sense of how this is now a city

where the majority of people were either born abroad

or are from families who came from abroad.

The shops here are run by people from across the world,

but it's the Polish ones that have started springing up.

Michael owns a shop on this road, one of the many Poles attracted

So, what do you think you have contributed to Leicester?

I opened a business, so maybe in the future

Benefits, you get? No.

Do you think Polish immigration is good for the UK?

If they can find the work, and they work and not claim

Where Leicester's immigration was from Southeast Asia

and East Africa, now it's largely from Europe.

The last census found the number of Poles here had increased by more

than 1000%, and last year, more than 7000 EU workers

Some of them are even part of top of the table Leicester City.

A squad with an English core also has five players

from the European Union, including Denmark, Germany and Poland.

If it works well for the football team, does it work for the rest

We need to get out of Europe, if you ask me.

You want to go out of Europe? Yeah.

Because then people can't just walk in.

The door is not just freely open to anyone.

Everybody should be able to come and work for a living,

That's what we are about, really, the UK, welcoming everybody.

It's definitely affecting the schools.

People are saying it's because of immigration.

So maybe it feels like there are too many people coming to Leicester

That's the short and small of it, I think, yeah.

At St Patrick's School, nearly 100 extra pupils has

The number of families who have come from the EU has greatly increased

If the borders were to close, it would have a huge impact

We would struggle to fill the roles we currently have if we just had

So, with the number of EU workers rising and rising,

would it help or harm Britain to say it's now too much?

Conservative Business Minister Anna Soubry wants the UK

Nigel Farage is the leader of Ukip - no need to say what side he's on!

I will ask you both do something in unusual, admit the problems with the

arguments. There might be lots of good reasons for staying in the EU,

but you can't actually control immigration

but you can't actually control because effectively the borders are

but you can't actually control countries. I don't think that is

actually accurate. We still have border checks. I came back from

Brussels just last Monday. Like everybody else, my passport was

looked at. One of the joys about the membership of the European Union is

that when it comes to things like the exchange of data and information

to keep our country safer, because we are in the EU and have those

arrangements, we are safer by being a member. I asked you to be honest.

Anybody from the EU, who wants to come in here and get a job can. Yes.

And it also means that anybody who lives here and is British can go

over there. And 1.3 million people have done that. Nigel Farage, can

you be honest, if you had controls, could you want, and you could have

by leaving EU, they would come at a cost. All the other countries

currently trading with EU and the single market have to have some form

of free movement of people as well. No, you are talking about Norway and

Switzerland who are closely integrated with the European market.

All over the world countries and markets sell goods to the European

Union without the need for free movement of people. The problem is

simple, this is my British passport. We all have one of these. The first

two words on it, European Union. That passport is now held by 500

million people. We are not able to choose the numbers that come or the

type of people who come. Immigration can be good, but we shouldn't have

an open door to huge knob is of unskilled workers. America and all

sorts of countries, that doesn't also have to have some sort of deal

about having a free movement of people. I don't ... I want Britain

to leave the European Union, stand on our own two feet and still trade.

You can have had free trade deal without being part of a political

union. You realise what this means, it means we will not trade as freely

as we do now with a market of 500 million people. Our exports will be

so much more difficult. What that means is that as a nation we will be

poorer for it. We are the biggest market in the world. Cars, wine and

cheese, we need us more than we need them. Just a spell this out for

people, because they often hear this argument made, America trades with

Europe, Canada trades with Europe, what would be different if we were

to come out of the EU about our relationship that worries you? How

long and what would it look like? It would take at least two years to

come out and it would be chaos will stop the pound has already fallen

today, and the credit rating with change. Suddenly there would be

nobody coming to work here if we leave, anybody who believes that is

being misled. People are worried about immigration. It's a price

worth paying for them. Yes, the borders are more open, but it's a

price worth paying. When we say it's a price worth paying, what we talk

about is when we don't do it properly. It's the schoolteacher who

doesn't have the resources or classes. In Hireme, immigration has

been good for our country. -- inherently. We can't plan for

schools or hospitals because of the open door we have no idea how me

people will turn up. For all the people coming here, there are people

who go there. Almost one and a quarter million Brits who live out

there. Surely if you tear up that passport in the way you want to, you

are effectively saying to the British or go to Spain and Germany

and France, you probably won't be able to do that. Before we joined

the European Union lots of British people were retiring to Spain and

Germany and Brittany, where ever it may be. Nearly a million Brits are

living in Spain and spending their money and without any Spanish

economy would collapse. You are saying that we could close our doors

but somehow they couldn't close theirs? We wouldn't close anything

retrospectively. People who have moved around legally, on an ongoing

basis, Brits would be welcomed in Spain and France because they spend

money. Painfully short, but there will be lots of time to discuss over

the coming months. Next, would we be richer or poorer

in or out of this club Membership of the EU doesn't only

allow all its citizens It also allows freedom

of movement for goods, In other words, the ability

to sell things, to trade, to do business freely

across the EU's borders without having to pay

tariffs or taxes or conform Allan Little has been to a European

country that has chosen to stay out He visited from neighbouring Sweden,

which is in the EU. The water is the border

between Sweden and Norway - But you can drive straight across it

without even noticing. When you cross this bridge,

you are leaving the EU, but you don't have to

show your passport here. In fact, there is no-one

to show your passport to, Norway may not be in the EU,

but it is part of the Schengen Area, which means that anyone from the EU

can come and live and work here. 16% of Norway's population

are migrants, and they are entitled to the same welfare

benefits as Norwegians. Norwegians rejected EU membership

in referendums in 1972 and 1994. We had a lot of scaremongering

about losing jobs. They said we would lose 100,000 jobs

by standing outside the EU, but every single day since has

shown this was false. Nothing expresses Norway's

independent character more eloquently than its

relationship with the sea. Norwegians have sought

to protect their fisheries But staying out of the EU means this

salmon processing company has to pay a tariff to sell its

products in EU countries. You have tariffs on smoked salmon,

that's the only thing. It's owner thinks that's

a price worth paying. I have been very constant

in my belief that I think It's like saying, you know

what you have, but you don't know But the world is

changing around Norway. Despite its global reputation

for quality and efficiency, Norway is facing growing

competition from Poland. Similar fish products can be

made there more cheaply, Here at Norway's Parliament,

the political elites, unlike the people, have tended

to favour EU membership. Most of the laws and directives

and regulations issued by Brussels get ratified by this

parliament anyway. Norway has to fall in line with EU

law, even though it's not allowed Politicians here call that

integration without representation. One foreign policy analyst

told me that every chicken, pig and fish in Norway

is a member of the EU, We are closely integrated

into the market, but we have lost part of the sovereignty

of deciding on the rules Would it be advantageous

to Norway to be a member, I believe that, but I'm

in a minority today. Norway may have stayed out,

but the EU has exerted its gravitational pull here,

and drawn this country into the orbit of European

integration all the same. Jurgen Maier is the CEO of Siemens

UK and thinks Brexit They employ 14,000 people in this

country. Helena Morrissey, who runs the fund

manager Newton Investment Management

disagrees. The same challenge, to be open about

the downsides. Doesn't Norway, and other examples illustrate the fact

that you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want the full

benefits of trading in Europe, with all those barriers down, you end up

having to pay the price, either in money or by having an immigration

policy you might not like. No, I think we can negotiate a good

situation, we can access the single market if we decide to leave. Those

two are not one and the same. How long did it take for the Canadians

to develop a free trade deal? We will not be the same as Canada.

Seven years, it was. We will have two years to start negotiating.

Brexit will be the start of a process, not an event in itself. You

manage vast sums in the city, why would you take a risk at a

time the global economy is not very stable and say, we may get a better

deal, we're not sure, it may take two years or it may take seven, why

do that? We used to be called the sick man of Europe. Europe's

economic malaise is self-inflicted. They do not have a good vibrant

approach. I think as a global economy we would be better off

seeking our place on the global stage. Juergen Maier, you have been

part of the sick man of Europe, now you are an Austrian by birth, you

run a German company, basically the European economy is a mess, why

would we want to tie ourselves to a corpse? It is not true that it is a

total mass. The whole of the global economy has been struggling

somewhat. But we only tend to hear the bad news. The last two years,

the European economy has started growing again. Spain last year grew

faster than the British economy did. And just remember that 44% of our

trade is done with the European economy. Why would we want to cut

that off? That there are lots of successful economies which are not

part of the EU, we just saw one, Norway. Why not be honest and say we

would thrive perfectly well outside? Norway is Norway and Britain is

quite different. I actually remember coming to the UK in 1974, when we

were the sick man of Europe, and look at the progress this country

has made in the last four decades as part of Europe. In your own case,

the example of Siemens, 14,000 people employed, are you saying

there is jobs would go if Britain left the EU? I have never said the

jobs would all go. What I am saying is, how can we create many more

jobs? We can create more jobs by being in Europe, have influence with

Europe. Essentially, life would go one, we would trade? We would

thrive. We have partnerships with the rest of the world. You have good

presence in Norway, for example. Our success in Britain is not dependent

on our membership of the EU. We are big manufacturer here in the UK at

Siemens, and we would not be able to thrive outside of the EU. We would

do OK. Does that mean when he decided to invest in a new factory

making wind turbines or magnets for hospitals, you would say, not here,

somewhere else? Let me give you a specific example. We at Siemens and

other small engineering companies see a future in driverless cars. We

can either get inside and help influence, create the best chance

for British industry, all we can sit on the margins and we can hope that

Brussels will look after us and that sounds pretty naive to me. And yet

he makes things, he sells things, you move money around. Isn't the

truth that people like you are against the EU is because Brussels

came for the hedge fund is and the boys and girls in the City of London

and you don't like it? We would still have to subscribe to

regulation if we left the EU. It is a poor argument to say with friends

like that, who needs enemies. I think we should be working on a

positive future. I think Europe has a huge number of problems. It would

be great if we saw fundamental reform. Youth unemployment is still

huge in Spain, Italy and Greece. That is a tragedy and we are not

seeing it addressed. I think Britain can go it global. We have to

leave it there but one sentence? This is the point, there will be

regulation if we are in or out, so why do it? Thank you, both of you.

Perhaps the main reason the question of our relationship with Europe has

been so controversial for so many years, is that it raises fundamental

Do we have less sovereignty - less control over our own lives -

by being in a big European club in which we can be outvoted?

Or do we have more influence - more power to shape the world -

because we are part of something much bigger than these islands?

In a moment, Alan Johnson and Chris Grayling will debate

the question of sovereignty but first, James Landale explains

how power is divided between the UK government and parliament

in Westminster and Brussels - the city where the EU is run from.

We live in a parliamentary democracy.

That means we get to choose the parliaments

that make decisions on our behalf here at Westminster.

But more than 40 years ago, Parliament decided to give up

It chose to pool some power with other countries,

in what was then called the European Community.

And some say that was the right decision.

There is a sacrifice of sovereignty, in that our Parliament can't

overturn laws made say about the environment,

once they are made at European level, but the original decision

to go in, was to share some of our sovereignty,

There are things that we can do collectively,

So where does power lie in the European Union,

and what say does Britain have?

Well, much of the power that has been pulled together

lies with the European Commission, the executive arm

Every country, including Britain, has one commissioner around

the table and their key power is the right to propose new EU laws.

The European Commission cannot set Britain's tax rates, its health

But it can propose things like common trading rules,

farm subsidies and environmental policies.

The Commission though does not get to decide those new laws.

That is the job of the European Council, which represents

the governments of the 28 member states.

This is the body where British ministers, that we elect,

can veto or vote against proposals they don't like.

And let's not forget the only directly elected parts

of the EU, the European Parliament.

It has 751 members, known as MEPs, of which 73

represent Britain, the third-largest national grouping.

There is also the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg,

the judges who make sure no one breaks EU law.

But critics say all that means too much power has left Westminster.

We have given away our right to self-government, so instead

of the people you elect to Westminster being responsible,

being allowed to do their best and you can get rid

of them if they make a mess, you cannot

change any of these things because they have been settled

in Brussels by 28 countries, and there is no

chance of getting 27 other countries to agree with us,

So critics say there is a gap between the free market many thought

they were joining and the centralising bureaucracy

of Brussels that is deciding stuff

that really should be a matter for our Parliament.

And supporters say the EU is still greater than the sum of its parts.

Ultimately, this referendum will be about power.

Should it reside wholly at Westminster

Chris Grayling is one of the six Cabinet ministers to go

against his Prime Minister and campaign to leave the EU.

Alan Johnson is a former Home Secretary

in charge of Labour's efforts to stay.

Alan Johnson, I will start with you, if I may, be honest, you do

obviously lose control, you lose sovereignty if you join a great big

club because you can be outvoted? Isn't it honest to admit that? You

can. The argument John Redwood was making was being made by Scots last

year saying if we leave the United Kingdom we could have control over

our own affairs. Our argument was if you are part of something bigger you

gain in Scotland and the whole of the UK would gain as well. I don't

think I can think of an example whether it is the United Nations,

Nato or the World Trade Organisation, where you don't lose

some of your control, in order to cooperate with other countries to a

meaningful effect? If a businessman in your constituency wanted to sell

all of oil in six litre containers, some rule from Brussels would tell

him he could not -- olive oil. People say, why should we tolerate

that? That was the case I would look into that. It is a case. The

competition rules say that for our big markets for our companies to

sell into, bigger commercial markets than the US or China, there have to

be rules that govern that, in our interests as well, for the olive oil

maker in Hull, who I have not heard of yet but I am sure he is there. We

have ceded to Brussels by treaty to our Parliament. He has said you give

a bit, but you give something back. Chris Grayling, you said recently it

would be disastrous to stay in the EU. Puzzled by this. We still

control matters of war and peace, we still control the NHS, we still

control our schools, we control taxes, the minimum wage, day by day

the main business of government is controlled by Westminster and

Whitehall. But there are plenty of issues where that is not the case.

The EU has decided what vitamin tablets we are allowed to take.

They're also the big issues. At the moment, our statisticians are saying

our population will rise to 75 to 80 million. I don't believe we can

cope. We have not got the schools, houses or hospitals. But we cannot

set limits on the large numbers of people who want to come and live and

work in the UK. If large numbers of people want to come from Eastern

Europe, we cannot set limits. I asked you to talk about sovereignty,

there is an enormous amount we control, we make a decision on

immigration and as I two Nigel Farage, people go the other

direction as well. We have just had two successful international visits

from the Chinese president and the Indian Prime Minister. We are not

able now to forge our own free trade agreements with India and China. We

have to ask the EU's permission to get on with that. Why is that in our

interest? We have to wait for the whole of Europe. The Prime Minister

of India said Britain should remain in the EU. Our exports to India

Pakistan have gone up by 93% since we were members. People in 1975

agreed that actually we should have on competition law, it should be

European wide, so that British companies don't suffer from

uncompetitive practices. That is the point, Chris Grayling, at the

moment, if a British company is discriminated against in Europe, you

can take it to the European Court. Someone in your constituency can

say, this is not fair, the rule for not being applied. If you leave,

there's nothing you can do? For a long time we have been the good

guys, often our businesses find it is not happening elsewhere. When

they knock on your door you will have to say, search me, nothing I

can do. Within which gives us a really strong hand in all of this,

in what you are talking about now and in Brexit and what comes

afterwards, they depend on us much more than we depend on them. They

spend far less money with us than we do with them. 65 million people by

more... It is all they end them. This is 27 countries on our own

continent who we decided to work with originally to stop wars

starting in Europe. The result of which was carnage for the 20th

century. The idea that we should get together is have George or Rather

than war war was Churchill. It was Nato to keep the peace. We do not

have to be in the EU to keep the peace. Is this it? It is a decision

one way or the other. I hope people will decide to leave because that is

what makes us an independent country once again. Thank you.

I'm often told that it doesn't matter how you vote because "they"

are all the same and "they" are all in it for themselves

The choice will be a simple, plain, black and white one -

Now, though, is not about their future.

It is about you and yours and your country's.