Donald Rumsfeld Breakfast with Frost


Donald Rumsfeld

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BBC Four Collections -

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specially chosen programmes from the BBC archive.

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For this Collection,

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Sir Michael Parkinson

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has selected BBC interviews

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with influential figures

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of the 20th century.

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More programmes on this theme

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and other BBC Four Collections

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are available on BBC iPlayer.

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President Bush, Tony Blair and other NATO leaders

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are arriving today at all different hours for a crucial NATO summit.

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The President, of course, coming just from Ankara across to Istanbul.

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One key issue is, of course, Iraq.

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So far, British and American troops have been the primary force

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trying to establish security ahead of the handover

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to the interim government this week.

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The US Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld,

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is the man in charge of all American military operations,

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therefore military operations in Iraq.

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And he has just arrived in Istanbul.

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I spoke to him just a few minutes ago for a rare interview,

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and I began asking him whether the NATO alliance

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remained as important as it was during the Cold War.

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Well, I think it is.

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It's a different role and a different time in our world's history,

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but NATO remains the most outstanding military alliance

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on the face of the Earth.

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It serves as the critical linkage between Europe and North America.

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And it fulfils a function and has the potential to, prospectively,

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that really can't be filled by any other institution.

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It could, of course, do more on some issues, like Iraq,

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but for the fact, obviously, that you have that...

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the three members of old Europe there - France, Germany and Belgium.

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It would be difficult to have anything other than

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a coalition of the willing if you're going into a new crisis.

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It does hold back what NATO can do a bit.

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Well, when you have an organisation with that many members, now 26,

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and you have an operation that's based on consensus,

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it's understandable that it will take some time to discuss and debate

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and consider and make sure everyone is working off the same fact pattern.

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To the extent people have the same threat assessment,

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they tend to do the same things and react the same way.

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To the extent people look at things from a different perspective

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and they're not working off the same sheet of music,

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it's not surprising when they go off in different directions.

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With the case of Iraq, we anticipate that at this summit,

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the heads of state will end up agreeing that NATO,

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the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation,

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will, in fact, have a role in training and equipping

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the Iraqi security forces, which is a very good thing, if that happens.

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Tell me, Mr Secretary, are you where you hoped to be 14 months ago

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when the war came to an end,

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or not?

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Oh, no.

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One would always hope for better.

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You know, you... Wars are unpredictable

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and postwar recoveries are unpredictable.

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Most countries have a very difficult time.

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I've been reading statements about how long it took

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the United States to move towards a democracy,

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and history books on Japan and Germany

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and some of the Eastern European countries.

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It's never been easy, it's always difficult,

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it's frequently violent and sometimes it's even ugly.

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Um, it was Jefferson who said

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that one ought not to expect to be transported towards democracy

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on a feather bed.

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It is a tough path,

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and the Iraqis are going to go through a tough period.

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But they're doing pretty well.

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The schools are open, the hospitals are open,

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the people are coming back in,

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refugees are returning, internally displaced people, there.

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They have food, they have electricity,

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they're selling oil, they have a budget.

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They also have a lot of Iraqis being killed by,

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in some cases violent Iraqis, extremists,

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in some cases by foreign terrorists.

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But they are on a path.

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The new government is a good thing

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and it'll take responsibility in two or three days.

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I have a lot of confidence that they'll be able to find their way

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towards a truly Iraqi solution.

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It won't look like your country and it won't look like our country

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but it will certainly look an awful lot better than

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the Saddam Hussein killing fields and mass graves

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and shoving people off the tops of buildings to kill them

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and cutting off their hands

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and pulling out their tongues with pliers and chopping them off,

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which is what that repressive regime did.

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But people do all say, Mr Secretary, at the same time,

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that we were responsible, partially, for the security situation.

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We clearly completely underestimated the degree of violence,

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lack of security that there would have been.

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We would have had more soldiers there,

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we would have done something different

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if we hadn't underestimated the danger on security.

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Well, there are people who say that.

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There are also people who argue the other side -

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that the real task of security is not to flood a country

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with more and more troops and become a foreign occupier.

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If you think about it, the Soviet Union had 300,000 troops

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in Afghanistan and lost the war.

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So victory and success is not inversely proportional

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to the number of people you have in the country.

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We don't want to be an occupying power.

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In the last analysis, governance and essential services

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and progress economically go hand-in-hand

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with successful security.

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The Iraqi people are going to have to provide

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for the security of that country, and they are well on the way to doing it.

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And in terms of Mr Allawi, the prime minister,

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when he was with us back in December and again just a few weeks ago,

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said on both occasions that he thought that one of the big mistakes

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was to disband the Iraqi army.

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He could see why it might have been seen as a good idea at the time,

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but putting all of those people out of jobs,

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that was a really serious error

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and affected our inability to patrol the borders and all of those things.

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I've read that and I've heard him say it.

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In fact, I've visited with him about it.

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His hope is to reconstitute some aspects of the Iraqi army.

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And I think that's a good thing.

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The reality is that we did not, in effect, disband the Iraqi army.

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The Iraqi army disbanded itself.

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It stopped fighting, it left, it disappeared into its villagers

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and took their weapons with them.

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And now the task - I think Mr Allawi is exactly correct -

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is to try to keep recruiting those people back.

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We've already recruited back some 206,000 Iraqis

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into the security forces -

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the police, the army, the Civil Defence Corps,

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site protection and border patrol.

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And his goal is to increase that number above the current 206,000

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by some significant margin, and I think that's a good thing.

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But do you think...

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I mean, Tony Blair was saying here on the programme

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that he was hoping very much that the number of British troops in Iraq

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by the end of next year would be greatly reduced.

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And the President, on the other hand,

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said you're there for as long as it takes.

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But it actually is possible, isn't it, that you will need

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in this current crisis of the handover

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maybe to increase the number of troops?

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There are reports that your nominee for the next commander

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wants 25,000 more troops.

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Is it possible in the short term you'll have to put in more troops?

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Well, what the new commander, General Casey,

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said in his confirmation hearing was that if he needed more troops,

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he would ask for them - number one.

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Number two - that we were already doing the planning

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in the event that that requirement became necessary.

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And that's only prudent planning.

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I initiated that some months ago - that we would take a look.

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And I said to General Myers,

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the Chairman of our Joint Chiefs of Staff,

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"Get the work done now. In case General Abizaid or General Casey

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"decide they need more troops,

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"I need to know where we would get them, what they would look like

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"and where they would be located, how they'd be deployed."

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That does not mean we will need them,

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it means that we're doing the prudent planning to need them.

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Now, in answer to your other question,

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we've actually gone from 113,000 troops up to 141,000 troops

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over the past three or four months already,

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so we've had a fairly significant increase.

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Coming on for a moment to the awesome subject, really,

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of the abuse of prisoners and so on.

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The headlines about that,

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probably in every country in the world,

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have been there all this week, of course,

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because of the administration's release of the documents

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regarding prisoner abuse and so on.

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And reading through them, Mr Secretary,

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there's one that says about how in December 2002

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you approved a list of new interrogation techniques

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to be used at Guantanamo Bay, which included dogs, nudity,

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hooding of prisoners, fear of dogs, use of stress positions,

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er, isolation for up to 30 days, 20-hour interrogations,

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forced shaving and so on.

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Now...

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Instantly, one would say, that six weeks later you retracted that.

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But what changed your mind?

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Well, the sequence went like this.

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I received a proposal

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from the commander in charge of Guantanamo Bay

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to permit a series of techniques to be used for interrogation.

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They were checked with the lawyers, they were determined to be

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within the President's order that the treatment be humane.

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And I ended up looking at the list

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and rejected a number of them

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and accepted some and approved it.

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Shortly after I approved it, in a matter of weeks,

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there was some discussion that took place among some lawyers

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that they were concerned about some of those techniques.

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So I said, "Fine."

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I orally discontinued the use of those techniques,

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said, "Get the lawyers' group together.

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"Let's have another discussion over this

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"and come back and tell me what we think is the appropriate way,

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"consistent with Geneva Conventions and consistent with humane treatment,

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"that they ought to be treated."

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So, that first tranche of techniques

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were in place, I believe, for a matter or five or six weeks

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and then they were discontinued,

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and about a month later we issued a new order

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indicating what the procedures and techniques would be permitted.

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You asked how it happened.

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It happened because there was a single detainee

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that was being interrogated -

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his name was Qahtani, al-Qahtani -

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who was considered to be the 20th hijacker

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in connection with the 9/11 attack on the United States,

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where 3,000 people were killed -

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men, women and children from dozens of different countries.

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And he was not being cooperative

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and the request came up in connection with that person.

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The techniques that you described were not used, I'm told,

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on anyone other than Qahtani.

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We may find out that's not correct at some point in the future,

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but at least my information thus far is that that's the case.

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And that's kind of the background for that.

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This was a very bad person, a person who clearly had information

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about attacks against the United States,

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and the techniques had all been approved by the legal community

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and the Joint Staff and in the Department of Defense

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and at the Combatant Command.

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And it was after some concern came up

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that we decided to rescind them and relook at them.

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And... But, of course you're very close to these things,

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but when one reads things in these documents about lawyers

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in the Justice Department or other departments

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coming up with judgements like,

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"Certain acts may be cruel, inhuman or degrading,

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"but still not produce pain and suffering

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"within the requisite intensity

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"to fall within the law's proscription against torture."

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You can probably understand that's shocking,

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to think of people trying to widen the definition

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of what they can do that isn't torture.

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It just seems bizarre. Or worse.

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It... It... Well, it seems like

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a bunch of lawyers debating legal points.

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In fact, that set of debates took place

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not in the Department of Defense, as I recall,

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- but in the Department of Justice... - Right.

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..and didn't really have any bearing on the procedures

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and techniques that ended up being used by the Department of Defense.

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And in terms of the famous Major General Miller,

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the hard man of Guantanamo, who was sent to improve the record,

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or the flow of information, on his first trip just for a few days,

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people say that in those few days he affected the whole climate,

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that he sent lists of what he did in Guantanamo

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to battalion commanders and so on, and your Brigadier General,

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or then Brigadier General, Janis Karpinski,

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said that Major General Miller insisted

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that prisoners should be treated like dogs.

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Now the FT say this, and I don't know... This is the FT,

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the Financial Times, said, "One fact remains undisputed.

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"Less than two months after his departure from Iraq,

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"the first of the shocking photographs were taken.

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"Whether one event helped cause the other is the question that

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"could decide the fate of an administration."

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Well, I've not seen the article you are referring to.

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I think the reality is that the administration

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has seen those photographs,

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the photographs were released by the government

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of the United States, by the military in Baghdad.

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They weren't found by the press, there was

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no investigative reporting or anything, discovering anything.

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The minute it was determined that those photographs existed,

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the military went out to the press

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and said there are allegations of abuse and there's an investigation.

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Within a short period of time, they announced that there

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are criminal prosecutions under way with respect to those photographs.

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Every thing we know, thus far,

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suggests that the...what was taking place in the photographs was abuse.

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We have not yet determined in any connection at all

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between that abuse and an interrogation process.

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Indeed, the majority of the people in those pictures

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engaged in that abuse

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were individuals who were not even security detainees -

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that is to say they were not people

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that were even being interrogated, for the most part.

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Some may very well have been being interrogated,

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but not necessarily in those photographs.

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They may have been detainees that people wanted information from,

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but those activities, I think, it would be

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a mistake to suggest, er, represented interrogation techniques.

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Now, we're going to know as the trials proceed precisely what

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happened and I'm in an awkward position because I'm not allowed to

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talk about these things for fear of being accused of command influence.

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What one can say is that the acts depicted

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in the pictures were abusive.

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We now have to complete the investigations to determine

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exactly how they occurred, why they occurred,

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and to see that the individuals engaged in them receive a punishment

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that's appropriate with whatever may have been done that was incorrect.

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Well, we've mentioned Guantanamo

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and moving on to, in fact,

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this week, Mr Secretary,

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on Guantanamo that, as you will have read,

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Lord Goldsmith, who's the Attorney General here, said that

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that there are certain principles which there can be no compromise,

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a fair trial is one of those,

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and the reason why we in the UK have been unable to accept that

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the US military terms proposed for those at Guantanamo Bay

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offer sufficient guarantee of a fair trial and so on.

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What's your response to that?

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Well, I'm not a lawyer and I'm familiar with his views

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and, of course, there are other views by other individuals

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who are considered to be fine attorneys.

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The circumstance at the present time

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is there is a process in Guantanamo Bay to review the detainees.

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They currently have still, I believe, about 595.

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Some 150 to 200 have already been released -

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some have been released to the UK, I think four or five.

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Er, there is an annual review process where each individual

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is reviewed to determine whether or not

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their continued detention is appropriate.

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The... If you think about it, in every war,

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people who have been captured have been captured for various reasons.

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One reason might be to try them for having done something wrong.

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Another reason might be to interrogate them

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to see what one can learn that could save additional lives.

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And a third reason is to keep them

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off the battlefield during the continuation of the conflict,

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even though you may not learn any information more from them

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and even though you may not end up trying them.

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You simply don't want them going back on the battlefield

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and killing more of your people.

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We've let loose thousands and thousands of people

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that have been captured.

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It's the case, I think, that a few weeks ago the Prime Minister

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asked whether the four Brits out there could be sent back to Britain

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and then another suggestion was

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could they be tried under American trial rules in America,

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but is that now no longer negotiable?

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I mean, they are going to be tried in Guantanamo or is it still negotiable?

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I just don't know.

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My recollection is that there were nine Brits involved

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and four or five have already been released...

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- That's right. - ..back to the UK,

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and that there are four or five left

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and what ultimately will be done,

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whether they'll be tried in a military commission or eventually

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returned to the UK for their handling, I just don't know.

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That's all being dealt with... I don't make those decisions.

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It's been dealt with in an orderly process.

0:19:080:19:11

Well, I guess the Prime Minister and the President can sort it out

0:19:110:19:14

- over the soup today or something. - Exactly.

0:19:140:19:18

What about Iran, Mr Secretary?

0:19:180:19:20

I would have asked you about this anyway

0:19:200:19:23

but we had that announcement on Friday that they are resuming

0:19:230:19:27

their nuclear programme, at least for the centrifuges and so on.

0:19:270:19:30

- That's a bad sign, isn't it? - Well, it is.

0:19:300:19:35

You have a country that's ruled by a handful of clerics

0:19:350:19:40

that is repressing the Iranian people,

0:19:400:19:43

that is causing harm in Afghanistan,

0:19:430:19:47

causing harm in Iraq, is actively working with Hezbollah

0:19:470:19:52

and Syria to spread terrorism down through Lebanon into Israel.

0:19:520:19:58

Er, it's a government that has been not telling the truth

0:19:580:20:04

about its role in its nuclear development. It's a country

0:20:040:20:09

that has been harbouring senior al-Qaeda leadership for some time,

0:20:090:20:15

and most recently we've seen them resisting the UN process

0:20:150:20:20

that they previously seemed to have agreed to,

0:20:200:20:24

but are obviously not adhering to.

0:20:240:20:27

Are we winning the battle with al-Qaeda? I mean, we see the...

0:20:270:20:31

How much of what you were saying earlier about the two forces

0:20:310:20:34

that are causing death in Iraq, do you think we are winning

0:20:340:20:37

the battle or is it a draw at the moment, a tie?

0:20:370:20:42

Well, in Iraq, I think

0:20:440:20:46

that, over time, we'll see that despite the difficulties,

0:20:460:20:49

despite the deaths and despite the problems that we see,

0:20:490:20:54

that the Iraqi people will end up recapturing their country

0:20:540:20:59

and fashioning an approach to government that will be

0:20:590:21:03

a peaceful one for its neighbours

0:21:030:21:05

and ultimately provide much greater prosperity for the region.

0:21:050:21:09

Separate out the global war on terror,

0:21:110:21:14

or the struggle that's taking place between extremists and radicals

0:21:140:21:19

against moderates, both within that religion

0:21:190:21:23

and out of that religion... Answering the question

0:21:230:21:26

as to whether we're winning that is a very difficult one.

0:21:260:21:30

I wrote a memorandum that ended up, leaking its...finding its way

0:21:300:21:36

into the newspaper unintentionally where I described it as,

0:21:360:21:39

"It'll be a long, hard slog" and the reason I say that is

0:21:390:21:42

because we're being very successful, with a 90-nation coalition,

0:21:420:21:46

we're being very successful in exchanging intelligence information,

0:21:460:21:50

in freezing bank accounts, in capturing and killing

0:21:500:21:54

senior members of these organisations.

0:21:540:21:57

On the other hand, we don't have a good visibility

0:21:570:22:00

into how many new recruits are coming in, the intake,

0:22:000:22:04

and going to these radical madrasah schools

0:22:040:22:07

and learning how to go out and kill people and being encouraged

0:22:070:22:12

and equipped and trained and deployed to do those suicide missions.

0:22:120:22:17

We don't know that and unless one knows that, you can't answer

0:22:170:22:21

the question, "Are you winning or losing?"

0:22:210:22:24

I think the struggle is not so much a global war on terror.

0:22:240:22:29

Terror is really the weapon of choice,

0:22:290:22:32

it's the technique they're using -

0:22:320:22:34

what the struggle really is... It's a...

0:22:340:22:37

almost a global insurgency

0:22:370:22:40

by a very small number of extremists and radicals

0:22:400:22:44

that are determined to attack the state system -

0:22:440:22:47

countries, civilised societies, in an attempt to terrorise them

0:22:470:22:52

and intimidate them and alter their behaviour.

0:22:520:22:55

And one final question, just briefly, Mr Secretary,

0:22:550:23:00

if President Bush wins the election

0:23:000:23:02

and invites you to return to the Pentagon, would you do a second term?

0:23:020:23:07

I'm already doing my second term, David.

0:23:090:23:12

Oh, yes, you were

0:23:120:23:13

- the 13th Defense Secretary as well. - That's right.

0:23:130:23:17

As Adlai Stevenson said, "I'll jump off that bridge

0:23:170:23:20

"when I get to it." FROST LAUGHS

0:23:200:23:23

Well, thank you very much for joining us today

0:23:230:23:25

for a wide-ranging discussion and we hope to do it again soon.

0:23:250:23:29

I look forward to it.

0:23:300:23:31

- Thank you very much. - Thank you.

0:23:310:23:33

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