Wed, 15 Jun 2011 CF99

Good evening and welcome to us here at CF99

for half an hour's debate.

Tonight, Ieuan Wyn Jones will be talking bluntly

about the future of his party.

He says there's no turning back, a firm message to his successor.

Perhaps a warning for one of our guests

who's being tipped as a candidate for Plaid Cymru's leadership,

Elin Jones.

Also here is Paul Davies, temporary leader of the Welsh Conservatives.

Professor Richard Wyn Jones,

Director of the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University

joins us from our Glasgow newsroom.

Welcome to all three of you.

It's essential to follow the road of expanding the party's appeal,

in order to secure Plaid Cymru's future according to its leader,

Ieuan Wyn Jones.

He will stand within the next two and a half years.

The message to his successor is that it would be a mistake

to retreat to their heartlands.

Earlier I questioned Mr Jones about his decade and more at the helm

referring firstly to that holiday in France

and his absence during the Assembly's royal opening.

Ieuan Wyn Jones, let's start with last week's debacle.

Do you regret missing the royal opening?

Fir the past 25 years, I've been to every opening

and present at every event and I felt, for once,

although I'm disappointed the clash happened,

but it happened and I felt I should put my family first.

I made that decision and I don't regret it.

So in the words of Edith Piaf and Norman Lamont, you have no regrets.

If you like. They are your words, but there we go.

Enoch Powell said that every political career ends in failure.

Does that strike a cord with you? Is that how you feel?

Not at all. I do feel a lot has been completed

especially during the last four years

because that's when, after preparing policies, for 80 years

the party had the opportunity to implement them.

I don't think we'd ever have missed the opportunity

to make sure the party could follow a programme of government

with the polices we had worked on for so long.

Compared to what the SNP, Alex Salmond, has accomplished

Ieuan Wyn Jones's reign hasn't been a sweeping success.

Scotland has always been in the lead,

the SNP has always had more support in Scotland.

The whole government mechanism in Scotland has been different

since the middle of the 19th Century.

Many things have been different.

But I still believe that there is an opportunity for the party

to be a bigger power in Welsh politics than we are now.

Before we discuss the future and looking back once again,

you have referred to your time in government,

-were you a successful minister?

-I think I was.

It's a matter to others to decide if that's true.

I agree that I accomplished a lot

and had the opportunity to accomplish a lot.

I transformed the way the department worked.

That was needed...

But that was behind the scenes, and everyone agrees you worked hard

changing the mechanism.

With regard to the economy, what did you succeed in doing?

What you have to remember, and what I learned early on,

a minister only has a small amount of power to make the big shifts

which are needed for the economy.

The Economic Minister has few powers compared with the Chancellor.

That's where the big power lies in regard to taxes, direction,

and huge investment.

There are things you can do as a minister

and I'm confident that the Welsh economy will become stronger

due to the different things we did in Government.

But the big changes won't be able to take place until the Assembly

-has more powers...

-So, politicians here are playing on the sidelines?

No, they're not playing on the sidelines.

In other fields we do have proper powers.

Looking back at your leadership and the more difficult periods.

Going right back to the start when you became leader.

You were a politician who had a vision for the party,

you wanted to move it forward. have you accomplished that vision?

I don't think we accomplished the vision

but we are on the way to accomplishing it.

There has been a change in the way

the party has looked at politics in Wales.

If you're going to be a political party

that needs support in Wales, and wanted to increase that support,

you have to naturally expand your appeal outside your heartlands.

The party has done that quite successfully in some areas

but there's still a long way to go.

That is the message I would want to transfer to anyone

who leads the party in future,

we have to remain on that path of expanding the party's appeal.

We have to make sure we appeal to people outside our heartlands

and that we are a party that can represent the whole of Wales.

In 2003, you had to resign as a result of disappointing results.

There were rumours of plot against you. Did that hurt?

Naturally, that hurts, but because of that mainly,

but because there was a feeling of splits within the party.

But as a leader, you naturally become part of that.

The type of split that happened in the party in 2003

hasn't happened this time because the party learned its lessons.

But to remain with 2003...

Just to make this point, if you want to move forward

in order to take the party to the next step

you can't spend two years arguing.

You have come through a lot and held on to a marginal seat on Anglesey.

Where does that determination come from?

Basically I wanted to do things.

I've always been a politician who doesn't like huge symbols,

who has a big rhetoric, but one who wants to do things.

When I came into politics, I wanted to think that when I left it

that I'd accomplished something.

I was determined to deliver something to Wales and the party.

You've now decided that it's time to leave the stage, as it were,

as leader.

Was that a difficult and sad decision for you?

Not really.

My intention would have been to stand down this term anyway.

Whatever would have happened.

The likelihood is that I announced that earlier than expected.

But as for standing down as leader I didn't see myself

leading the party into the 2015 election,

2016 now with that extra year.

I didn't see that happening.

I was going to transfer power at some point

and the fact it happened earlier than expected, there we go.

Yet, you say you're going some time during the first half of this term.

Doesn't that leave the party in some sort of limbo?

A decision is needed, a date is needed.

The big problem with that is that's what we did in 2003

and we landed in a huge hole.

I don't' want to return to that.

One of things I was told,

because you discuss these things with friends within the party,

and one thing that was mentioned clearly to me

was that I wasn't to do what happened in 2003,

to try and transfer the reigns straight away.

The party needs to seriously consider its future.

What that means is that a review will be held

and I've said I will fit in with that review.

When people feel that work has been completed, I will naturally...

So this isn't your personal decision?

Not at all.

I've come to the conclusion it would be daft stand down immediately.

But it was also a consensus within the party and I'm happy with that.

I think it is a sensible thing to do.

A political party should sit down after an election

and decide the way it wants to take.

I hope that party will accept this, although I feel Plaid Cymru

has to have the ambition of being in government,

that doesn't mean we have to be in government every term.

Before we turn to that, just to be clear, the party has asked you

to stay and take care of the shop before the cleaning takes place

-while you look at yourself...

-No...

-A post mortem, if you like.

I don't like that description.

What you are doing is see how you can expand your appeal.

In order to that you have to talk to people outside the party.

But shouldn't there be a race for the leadership

in order to have that discussion?

Once I've stood down, everyone's free to say what they like.

But the discussion won't start until you've gone.

What I'm trying to say is there is an element

of looking at the leader as the only thing that's counts in a party.

That's not true. The leader has to have a party to lead.

He has to have the machine, he has to have policies,

he has to have a good communications system.

You have to have the basics in place for any new leader.

If that doesn't happen, the party won't be able to move on.

I don't expect you to name your successor today,

but will there be a good choice in this race?

Will there be a choice of Ieuan Wyn Jones's direction

or maybe going back to the more familiar areas?

Do you see the debate developing?

I'm not sure. Until people put their names forward,

we're not sure what their agendas will be.

I am hoping the party will realise it can only go in one direction

and that's to expand its appeal

and make sure it continues as a government party.

I think the party's viewpoint on the government spectrum is clear.

I don't think that will change, you have to be to the left.

Many are saying maybe it is the time to say independence is the next step.

It was something you were eager to hide.

If you look at what Alex Salmond has done in Scotland

maybe hiding independence as a goal was a mistake?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'hiding independence'?

That's been part of the party's policy since 2003.

It's been in every manifesto since 2003

and there have been many discussions.

But it was never a priority?

The reality is, we might as well be honest about it,

Wales's constitutional development must follow a different path

from Scotland's and everyone accepts that.

Anyone who thinks independence will happen in five year's time,

it's not going to happen in five year's time.

It's going to take time.

The people of Wales have to be comfortable

with the steps we are taking.

We have taken an important step

that wouldn't have happened without Plaid Cymru in government.

That was the referendum on law making powers.

I think Labour's vision for the next step in Wales is weak.

What's your vision?

Without doubt, it's having new finance powers,

new taxing laws, as well borrowing powers.

Wales will only go forward with that.

As well as crowing for independence a bit more as a party?

That's for the new leader to decide.

But Plaid Cymru can't feel the only way it can move forward

is to talk about constitutional affairs.

We have to have practical answers to people's lives.

If you had to write a letter to your successor

giving some advice, what would your message be?

What would your warnings be about the dangers?

There are always pitfalls.

The Labour Party in London is going through this right now,

when you return to what you think is your core message.

The reality is, you can't win an election on a core message.

You have to appeal beyond that to your tradition supporters

in order to win any election.

Wales needs a party which has vision.

And a coalition as soon as possible?

I wouldn't say as soon as possible.

The other thing I want to say is,

you don't have to be in government every time.

There are times when a party has to revive itself.

How would you like your leadership to be remembered?

Hopefully, as someone who has led Plaid Cymru into government

and had delivered something that was important to us as a nation,

to have a real parliament for Wales.

Ieuan Wyn Jones. Richard Wyn Jones, we start with the Anglesey Joneses.

Is what Plaid Cymru's facing now an existential crisis

or just a process that any party faces after a disappointing result?

I can be very academic and say somewhere in the middle.

It isn't a huge crisis in the fact

the party's future hangs in the balance.

In many ways, the party is very healthy.

I don't think they've lost many members during the time

they were in government which was a feat for a party

that went into government for the first time.

They are still financially healthy.

They have young, talented people joining the ranks.

But I think the referendum closed a chapter.;

What we've seen over the last decade is Welsh politics

slowly moving to Plaid Cymru's direction.

Everyone now is a Welsh nationalist with a lower case 'n'.

If you read the election manifestos,

the Tories wanted to go much further with constitutional changes,

as well as the Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru.

Even Labour, despite being the most conservative,

also wanted to go further.

The other parties have responded to Plaid Cymru's success in 1999

by being more similar to the party.

What's Plaid Cymru's purpose now?

Is that the problem now? The electorate believe that Plaid Cymru

has completed its job?

In a way Plaid Cymru has to decide that.

What's become apparent over the last few days

is if you analyse what's being said in the media

by different Plaid Cymru commentators or spokespeople,

a new narrative has started to appear.

It focuses on economic growth and I think they'll make that a priority.

Once you look at Wales's economic situation it is quite depressing

to say they least.

I think that's the direction that goes back to the roots

of an economic plan drawn up by Dafydd Wigley and Eurfyl ap Gwilym

back in the 1960s.

I think that's the type of direction that's starting to appear

although it's early days considering the review Ieuan Wyn mentioned.

Elin Jones, we also discussed the purpose of Plaid Cymru

this morning with Ieuan Wyn Jones.

He said that, "We are a Welsh party, the other parties are from London."

You also made that point in the Western Mail.

But it's an old argument. The other parties have moved.

Paul's party is now more "Welsh", the Labour Party is more "Welsh".

Does that argument about being Welsh, your USP,

does it stand up today?

Well, it's obvious Plaid Cymru is the only party

that focuses on Wales and takes its values from the people of Wales,

without an HQ in London and so on.

It's an obvious point to make, but it remains important.

I don't feel I'm in a crisis, as a Plaid Cymru member.

I think the description from Richard Wyn Jones

was a better description of how I feel right now,

that we're coming to the end of a chapter

and there's now an opportunity to start the next chapter.

What is that chapter?

What we need to do as a party, and Ieuan has put this in context...

We need to take this step of looking

to see what are the next steps for us as a country and as a party

to strengthen our nation, to strengthen our nation economically,

to make the case for more self-government,

further devolution of powers...

On that constitutional path, what is the next goal?

More economic power, as far as taxes or independence?

Going for it and starting to talk openly about independence,

as Adam Price suggested this morning.

Plaid Cymru is very comfortable

with our constitutional aim,

that we want an independent Wales within the European Union.

But the people of Wales will decide that.

Plaid Cymru's responsibility is to make the case for that.

At the moment, I'm a fairly realistic politician,

the people of Wales on the whole do not support independence right now,

so we have a responsibility...

But shouldn't you start persuading them to support that?

The argument has not been put forward.

That is the exact point I am making.

This next chapter, this is Plaid Cymru's role,

to build the nation, to put forward the case for more self-government,

that would eventually lead to independence.

I don't think that will shock anyone,

that will be the next chapter for Plaid Cymru.

Paul Davies, your party is going through a leadership race

and yet to some extent, it is a cleaner race.

Nick Bourne has gone, straightaway, he has lost his seat

due to your party's success.

Does that make the race and the internal debate, if you like,

a little easier, rather than the leader still being there?

Maybe it does,

as Nick unfortunately lost his seat in the Assembly election,

but we are going through this race.

I think we have moved quickly

in order to choose a new leader for the group in the Assembly.

And the race will be over in around a month.

Is there a danger you could return to that comfortable habitat,

while looking for a new person?

Not at all. I think that the two candidates that we have

want to ensure that we expand beyond our traditional support

and that is what Nick or Andrew will be doing,

whichever one becomes leader, of course.

Richard, there is a problem for any party in this country,

or if you look at foreign countries,

that the party members' opinion differs to public opinion.

That is one thing I wanted to say.

I think there was an assumption in some of Bethan's questions

that having a leadership battle was cleaner and more honourable

and more effective.

If you look at recent British political history,

I don't think you can maintain that argument.

If you look at the Labour leadership contest to succeed Gordon Brown,

I don't think that has settled anything,

in the same way the Conservatives chose a series of leaders

after Major, without settling anything.

What Plaid Cymru is doing is a little different

and is maybe braver, in the sense that they will have

this debate on their direction.

I'm sorry to be a bit boring regarding Plaid Cymru's history,

but if you go back to the start of the '80s,

there was a process of being very self-critical

and I think that taking the process away from the personalities

can be a wise move for a party.

I'm not sure that just having a quick contest

involving maybe Elin Jones and whoever would settle anything.

But Paul, if you listen carefully, you have to listen carefully,

to the two candidates in the race, there are differences between them.

They are polite to each other, but there are differences.

One talks about a more pioneering and more Welsh politics,

more or less portraying himself as the successor to Bourne's vision,

with the other slightly different - concentrating more on unity.

So there is an internal debate within your party.

I don't think there is that much to differentiate the candidates.

There may be a difference in style.

I think that's what the contest will come down to.

But I think it is healthy that we have a contest.

I think it's healthy within a democratic party to have a contest.

But if it is a contest only on personality,

rather than vision, doesn't that contest become irrelevant,

where one candidate is saying, "I'm a family man,"

and the other saying, "I'm the voice of the future, the voice of youth."

You have a kind of Miss Wales contest!

But I don't think there is that much of a difference

as far as policy between the two candidates,

so our members will then have to look at their style

and who they believe can reach beyond our traditional support.

Elin Jones, are you going for it?

To lead the Tory Party? No! I have no interest in that!

Closer to home?

Well, the timetable will become a lot clearer...

The timetable will become clearer at some point

and I'll have to make a decision.

One quick question. Time is short.

Is Adam Price going to be a problem,

in the sense that you have prince there,

and any leader that is chosen will be seen as temporary?

I don't think any party would describe Adam Price

as a problem for that party.

Having someone like Adam Price as an external commentator

on the membership is an important contribution

for Plaid Cymru and for politics.

I think any party should be grateful for someone like Adam Price.

We're lucky in Plaid Cymru that he's with us.

Thank you. We'll get the answer out of you at some point.

Thank you. That's all for tonight.

-We'll be back at the same time next week.

-Until then, goodnight.