Browse content similar to Wed, 29 Jun 2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good evening and welcome to CF99. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
Tonight - Wales' first language commissioner. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
The advertisement is on its way, | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
but is the position an honour or a curse? | 0:00:28 | 0:00:30 | |
And are you on strike tomorrow? | 0:00:30 | 0:00:33 | |
Is it a fair way to protect rights | 0:00:33 | 0:00:35 | |
or an unnecessary nuisance for everyone else? | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
Joining us tonight in the Senedd | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
is the AM, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, from Plaid Cymru, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
Rhys Williams from the Labour Party, | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
and Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:50 | |
Are you an energetic and committed person who fancies a new challenge? | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
Well, Assembly Members have approved the process | 0:00:54 | 0:00:57 | |
of appointing Wales' first language commissioner. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
Someone that will be a champion and an advocate for the language. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
But before you start revamping that CV, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
you also need the wisdom of Solomon and and patience of Job. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
That's according to the former minister | 0:01:11 | 0:01:13 | |
who was responsible for forming the position. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
Yes, the First Minister is looking for a special applicant | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
to fill an important role. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
Yesterday, the Assembly was given a summary of the job description | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
by someone who is famous for being blunt. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:41 | |
However, it wasn't Lord Alan Sugar. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:46 | |
The commissioner will be a champion and an advocate for the language | 0:01:46 | 0:01:51 | |
and will also play a crucial role | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
in developing and raising language standards. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
So the reward for the successful applicant will be the opportunity | 0:01:58 | 0:02:02 | |
to be at the forefront, protecting and promoting | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
one of the most contentious issues in Welsh politics - | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
the Welsh language. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:09 | |
How hard can that be? | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
He or she will need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of Job, | 0:02:12 | 0:02:17 | |
the cunning of Salome and the chutzpa of King David. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
If you can find a person like that, all the better! | 0:02:21 | 0:02:25 | |
This person will be a regulator. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
Now, that in itself could be a dry and worthless role. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:32 | |
We can't afford to have that kind of person. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
We've accomplished so much with regard to the Welsh language | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
over the last few years and we need to keep that momentum going. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
This person can not be a lap dog to anyone. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:46 | |
-Would you apply? -Well, it's going to be a challenge for anyone. | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
Even if the commissioner is not a lap dog, | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
he or she will be answerable to the Welsh Government. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:56 | |
Do you regret not making the position answerable | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
to the entire Assembly, considering you are now in opposition? | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
The Government decides how much money will be available, | 0:03:04 | 0:03:10 | |
and the commissioner needs to be able to talk to the Government. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:15 | |
Every time a new commissioner is appointed, the question will arise. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
Is it the establishment's commissioner | 0:03:19 | 0:03:21 | |
or the people's commissioner? | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
The big difference for the Welsh Language Board | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
is that the commissioner will be able to issue fines. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
The commissioner will also inherit expertise, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
with two thirds of the Board's staff being adopted by the commissioner's | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
office when the work of the Board ends in March next year. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
The rest will join the ranks of the Government's civil servants. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
But before disappearing, | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
the Board is determined to win one final battle. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
The row over the translation of the Assembly's record. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:55 | |
The response has been very positive from the new presiding officer. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:59 | |
She wants to find a way forward | 0:03:59 | 0:04:01 | |
and she's been looking at ways of offering a translation | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
that is available in other European countries. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
Maybe that's a challenge for me as a chair. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
That I can say, at the end of my term, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
one of the last things I did was sort out the record. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
So there's no doubt about it. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
The work of the commissioner's office will be very different | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
to the work of the Welsh Language Board. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:26 | |
The first commissioner will have significant freedom | 0:04:26 | 0:04:29 | |
to define the position according to his or her priorities. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
However, nobody denies the size of the challenge, | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
especially at the moment. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
It's ironic that we've just seen status for the language, | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
and the referendum for more powers being won, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
but we're still fighting for these things. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
We still have to fight to keep our Welsh TV channel. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:51 | |
It's easy to support both languages if you're a business, | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
if you're in the private sector. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:57 | |
The decisions that organisations have to make | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
concerning the use of the language in the workplace and in business | 0:05:00 | 0:05:04 | |
is also a challenge for us. | 0:05:04 | 0:05:05 | |
So many pieces of the jigsaw are moving. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
It's as if the wind is blowing in favour of the language. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
If you think of Welsh as a sailboat, | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
there are many favourable winds and breezes. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:21 | |
However, we've lost ground with regard to the places | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
where the Welsh language is used naturally and regularly. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
So it's as if the tide is going back | 0:05:29 | 0:05:35 | |
but the wind's in our favour. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
Under such circumstances, and for this job at least, | 0:05:38 | 0:05:42 | |
finding an apprentice is not the objective. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
Rhodri Glyn Thomas, you wear several hats in this area. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:52 | |
One Assembly committee has chosen you as the person | 0:05:52 | 0:05:56 | |
to represent the Assembly in the selection of the commissioner. | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
What kind of person are you expecting to appoint? | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
That CV from Alun Ffred was very ambitious, wasn't it? | 0:06:04 | 0:06:10 | |
Yes. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:12 | |
I think you could add thick skin to the list Ffred made. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
We all know that Welsh speakers can be very critical. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
We've all been there. Rhys has been there. I've been there. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:25 | |
There are many Welsh speakers who spend all their time | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
criticising other people instead of doing something for the language. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
So there will be criticism. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
The big question is, will this commissioner have credibility? | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
Will people be able to trust the commissioner | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
and the work the commissioner's office does? | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
I would argue that the example is the way Peter Clarke, | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
when he was appointed as the Children's Commissioner, | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
established and built that commission | 0:06:53 | 0:06:57 | |
and ensured that everyone had complete trust in them. | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
If the language commissioner can do that, | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
something important will have happened. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
However, one dilemma continues. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
The Government has not managed to separate the responsibility | 0:07:08 | 0:07:12 | |
with regard to regulation and promotion. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
I don't think you can do the two things. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
The Government has to say what exactly the commissioner's role is. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
But to some extent, | 0:07:23 | 0:07:25 | |
isn't it likely that if the commissioner is a strong person, | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
he or she will define the position? | 0:07:29 | 0:07:31 | |
He or she will decide where the boundaries are and what the role is. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:36 | |
I think that's the main qualification. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
The commissioner will have to show that he or she has a clear vision | 0:07:38 | 0:07:44 | |
of the role and what needs to be achieved to ensure | 0:07:44 | 0:07:49 | |
that we have a situation in Wales where the two languages are equal | 0:07:49 | 0:07:55 | |
and that people's rights to use either language are protected. | 0:07:55 | 0:08:00 | |
Rhys, you need to be a diplomat, a policeman, a judge. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
To what extent will the individual have to shape the position? | 0:08:04 | 0:08:09 | |
I think that's the case. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
I agree with Rhodri when he talked about Peter Clarke. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
He defined the position and it took two years. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:19 | |
I remember seeing this man with no tie, | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
he didn't look like a civil servant, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
but after two years, he'd convinced people. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
It's a bit like being the manager of a football team. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
It depends on the results after two years. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
So you want a people's commissioner, not the establishment's commissioner? | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
The people. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
Someone the people can turn to and trust. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:48 | |
Iestyn, is it important that this person has a high profile? | 0:08:48 | 0:08:54 | |
People have said that the Board... | 0:08:54 | 0:08:58 | |
People don't feel they can go to the Board to complain. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:03 | |
They don't feel they know the members of the Board | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
and who runs the Board. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
There's no one person they can turn to and say, this is my problem. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:15 | |
It's important that this role convincesnon Welsh speakers. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
We all know what the Welsh Language Board and who's on it. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
To do that, we need to make sure people trust this person, | 0:09:22 | 0:09:27 | |
the body and the status | 0:09:27 | 0:09:29 | |
and everything that comes with this role. | 0:09:29 | 0:09:34 | |
This is one person, | 0:09:34 | 0:09:35 | |
but it's important that the precedent is there as well. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
And are small businesses eager to see the role being filled, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:44 | |
or are they concerned that this policeman or policewoman | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
will create problems for them? | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
You've given evidence to the committee, | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
and you said that they would respond better | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
to requests rather than legislation. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
Small businesses face legislation and rules every day. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
So the important role for the commissioner is to promote | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
and ensure that the agenda moves forward | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
and also to mark where we are in terms of Welsh language legislation. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:16 | |
-And to fine? -No. Not in my opinion or the opinion of small businesses. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
What is needed is support and promotion, | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
as the Language Board is already doing with us, | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
to enable small businesses to use the Welsh language | 0:10:26 | 0:10:31 | |
and promote the role of the language in modern Wales. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
If there too much policing and fining, will that have | 0:10:34 | 0:10:39 | |
a negative effect on the language? | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
I think there is a balance to be had. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
You need the trust of people that are fighting for their rights. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
And you need the trust and respect of non-Welsh speakers, | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
so is there fairness and is the language given too much favouritism? | 0:10:54 | 0:11:00 | |
That is the kind of balance the commissioner will have to find. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
But are you confident... I know of a council not far from | 0:11:04 | 0:11:09 | |
where Iestyn lives that has been working towards a Welsh website | 0:11:09 | 0:11:14 | |
for the past four years and all they have at the moment | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
is Google Translate. Are you confident that a commissioner | 0:11:17 | 0:11:21 | |
can give a kick up the backside where maybe the Board has failed? | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
The commissioner will have much stronger powers than the Board. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
The Board does a lot of work in securing language plans. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
That is going to change now, but the commissioner will be able | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
to ensure that happens and that people who want to use Welsh | 0:11:37 | 0:11:43 | |
-have the right to do so. -Now, you have another hat, Rhodri. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
You're the person on the commission, responsible for the language, | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
so we'll leave you 'til last. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
Iestyn Davies, are you one of those who see this as something symbolic, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
that the bilingual record is needed? | 0:11:58 | 0:12:00 | |
No, but I would like to see a bilingual record. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:04 | |
Unless the Assembly and the Government, as part of that process, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:09 | |
cannot ensure that the record is translated regularly, | 0:12:09 | 0:12:14 | |
what option do they have when telling businesses what to do? | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
Do you agree, Rhys? It's a waste of money, according to some. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
There's nothing I love more when I'm in Cardiff | 0:12:22 | 0:12:28 | |
than going to the supermarket and seeing all the bilingual signs. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
Years ago, people would have said "It's not practical, | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
"people don't understand it." | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
But it's important, as a matter of principle, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
that people see these signs. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:45 | |
A lot of people go to supermarkets, not many read the Assembly record. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
Well, I don't know. Today, before coming on this programme, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
I wanted to know what a certain word was in Welsh. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:58 | |
I was looking at the terms from the Assembly. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
And it said... "Mynegai..." "Manwerthu..." | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
Well, I've forgotten now. I wouldn't remember it tomorrow anyway. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:12 | |
But it's nice that we can turn to the Assembly | 0:13:12 | 0:13:16 | |
for standard language. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
There was a time when people turned to the Bible for that. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
So what about your personal opinion, Rhodri? | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
My personal opinion has been put on the record a number of times. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
I complained when the decision was made back in 2009. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
I gave evidence before the board set up to review the decision. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:41 | |
I argued the case in favour of a bilingual record. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
I still believe that there is a question of status here. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:48 | |
What is changing is that the Language Board | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
has said that we have gone against the Assembly's language strategy | 0:13:51 | 0:13:59 | |
and we must respond positively. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:01 | |
So are we to take from that there will probably be a bilingual record | 0:14:01 | 0:14:08 | |
-eventually? -Well, there are practical problems. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
There are cost problems. I think we must look at the situation | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
where translation companies can charge the prices they do charge. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:21 | |
That was the biggest problem. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:23 | |
It cost nearly 400,000 originally for a record within 24 hours. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:28 | |
That is not practical for the Assembly or anyone else. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:31 | |
So we must raise questions about that. Technology is changing. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
But in the long-term, I must put the case forward | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
and I must persuade the three other commissioners and Presiding Officer | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
to support this, and we need to look at the technology | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
and see if there is a way for us to use the technology | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
-to make it more cost effective. -Do you think Dafydd Elis Thomas | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
has been wise in raising this? | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
Dafydd had arguments that were very important at the time. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:59 | |
The biggest argument was - should all this money be spent | 0:14:59 | 0:15:03 | |
on a record that had been translated into Welsh in written form, | 0:15:03 | 0:15:08 | |
-were there other things we could do? -But whatever the argument, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
a former Language Board chairman as Presiding Officer | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
broke the Assembly's language strategy. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
That was incredible, wasn't it? | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
Well, the Assembly had every right to change the language strategy. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:27 | |
-But not break it. -What should have happened, | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
for some reason it didn't, there should have been talks | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
with the Board regarding this and an agreement should have been reached | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
between the Assembly and the Board. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:40 | |
That is what we have to do now. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:43 | |
Whatever the result, we will have to reach an agreement | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
with the Language Board regarding the way we move on from here. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
Right. Thank you. 750,000 teachers and civil servants | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
will strike tomorrow in a dispute over pensions. | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
David Cameron has urged people not to strike, | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
but hundreds of schools in Wales are expected to close. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:07 | |
There are strong feelings on both sides of the dispute. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
Businesses and parents are facing problems as a result of the action. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:15 | |
I think we will have the support of a lot of parents. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:24 | |
Parents are aware that teachers are not paid high wages | 0:16:24 | 0:16:30 | |
and that the pension is part of the agreement in the public sector. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
This attack on pensions by the coalition is daft. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
If other people can strike, then anyone should have the right. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:48 | |
But personally, I don't agree with it. | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
Well, that's why you go on strike. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
You hit the parents and the parents have the vote. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
They can vote to tell the Government "This isn't right. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
"You have to do something." | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
I'm not happy about it because of childminding, you know. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
It's unfortunate if children can't go to school. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
Parents have to stay at home. It affects business. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
I don't think the teachers have the support from the public | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
in striking. We have problems with pensions, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
talks must be held, I don't think striking is the answer. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
As the voice of the private sector here tonight, Iestyn, | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
do you have any sympathy with those striking tomorrow? | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
To an extent, of course. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
We have a membership that is married, | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
or can see the challenge and the problem. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:50 | |
It's not a question of the private sector not agreeing | 0:17:50 | 0:17:54 | |
with the public sector - there is a strong argument here. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
But I don't think that there is much sympathy from the private sector | 0:17:58 | 0:18:03 | |
towards those people who have decided that strike action | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
is the way forward - where was this movement, this protest, | 0:18:06 | 0:18:11 | |
when Bosch was going bust? | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
Where is this protest when the high street is suffering, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:18 | |
when shops are closing, businesses are closing? | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
If you really want to fight against the problem we face | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
as a nation, as an economy, because of the recession... | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
It depends on the strength of the unions in the different sectors. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
Yes, certainly. And we all accept that the unions | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
are now stronger in the public sector. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
But rhetoric is one thing, of course. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
Another question is can they achieve anything through this process? | 0:18:42 | 0:18:47 | |
I don't think they can. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:49 | |
The private sector has that option to strike from time to time, | 0:18:49 | 0:18:53 | |
but we need to find another way to compromise. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
Rhys, isn't it the case that even if the country wasn't in the state | 0:18:56 | 0:19:02 | |
that it is, we're all living longer, pensions must be adapted, | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
the Government doesn't want to change what people have paid for, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
they're just saying - from now on, as you're living longer, | 0:19:10 | 0:19:14 | |
you will have to pay more and take less. It's not unreasonable. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
What is ahead is that teachers will be paying more, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:24 | |
working longer and receiving less at the end. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:31 | |
But receiving less for a much longer period, an average. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
Isn't that the point? | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
The point is that any union worth its salt wouldn't accept that. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
Iestyn was saying they should hold talks. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
The unions have been trying to hold talks. | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
And the Government has said, this is their style these days, | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
that is strength, that they will not hold talks... | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
But the question is, are the unions and the teachers, | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
who will affect a lot of us as parents and businesses tomorrow, | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
do they accept that the bar has moved? | 0:20:02 | 0:20:05 | |
As Vaughan says, we're living longer, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
things have changed, compared with the way it was. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:13 | |
They say about living longer... One thing the Government has done | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
is bring the elderly and younger people together. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
The younger people these days, the newly qualified teachers, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:25 | |
instead of paying 6.4%, they'll be paying 9.8%. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:31 | |
Now then, I have a relative who works in the private world | 0:20:31 | 0:20:36 | |
and she said, "Oh, that is awful!" | 0:20:36 | 0:20:41 | |
"Starting off with a mortgage and all the things you need..." | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
"In the private sector, it goes up gradually. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:51 | |
"Is there another option?" I said, "No." | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
You opt out of a pension. | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
Rhodri, Vince Cable has warned that if the strikes go ahead, | 0:20:56 | 0:21:00 | |
there will be legislation to restrict the power of the unions, | 0:21:00 | 0:21:07 | |
if you like, that they must have a clear majority in a vote, | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
so are the unions damaging themselves by striking tomorrow? | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
I think there must be respect on both sides. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
If you take our situation, as elected members here, | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
there will be a strike and there will be picketing here. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
I won't be crossing the picket line tomorrow. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
I respect the unions' right to strike and argue their case, | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
regarding what is happening, but the unions must show the same respect. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
If all the unions are going to come and picket the Senedd, | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
as elected members, we cannot carry out our jobs. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
Tomorrow, those picketing will be people that work here. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
They have the right to do that and we should respect that. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:56 | |
-You'll be working elsewhere. -I'll be in Brussels tomorrow. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
But even if I were here, I wouldn't be crossing the picket line. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
But this question of respect is a huge question here. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
I don't want to return to a situation where the unions | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
are stopped from expressing their opposition to Government policy, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
that would be totally unacceptable. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
Talking of respect, Rhys, some parents who have to rearrange | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
childcare tomorrow - they have terrible problems | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
when they try and take a child out of school to go on holiday, | 0:22:27 | 0:22:32 | |
so what does that say about teachers, that they're prepared | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
to deny children education in that way...? | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
You're talking about respect, Vaughan. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
What respect has the Government shown towards teachers | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
when they change the pensions at the last minute, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
-when they change... -They're not changing anything | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
where people have already paid for it. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
They will have to pay more for their pensions. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
-In the future. -There has been a change in the policy deal | 0:23:02 | 0:23:09 | |
because of the huge changes that have taken place | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
since the pension system was established. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
In these talks, no-one is denying that. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
But at the same time, they need to find a third way, if you like, | 0:23:19 | 0:23:25 | |
to move forward on this subject. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
And why should someone who works in the private sector | 0:23:28 | 0:23:32 | |
work for longer to pay taxes to pay for pensions for teachers | 0:23:32 | 0:23:39 | |
-and nurses and so on? -If you are a parent or anyone, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:43 | |
common sense says there will be a crisis in 15 years | 0:23:43 | 0:23:47 | |
when teachers are in their 50s and 60s, | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
it will break down and there will be a crisis | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
and I take no pleasure in saying that. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:59 | |
Rhodri Glyn Thomas, is part of the problem here | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
that politicians so far have not changed their pensions plans? | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
That is a fact and it's easy for David Cameron and George Osborne, | 0:24:06 | 0:24:12 | |
who are millionaires independently, to tell ordinary workers - | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
you must accept these cuts and we're all in it together. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
It's easy for a millionaire to say that. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
On that note, we must leave it for tonight. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
Thank you for joining us this evening. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
We'll be back at the slightly later time of 10.30pm next Wednesday. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:35 | |
-Until then, goodnight. -Goodnight. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 |