Wed, 29 Jun 2011 CF99


Wed, 29 Jun 2011

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Good evening and welcome to CF99.

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Tonight - Wales' first language commissioner.

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The advertisement is on its way,

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but is the position an honour or a curse?

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And are you on strike tomorrow?

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Is it a fair way to protect rights

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or an unnecessary nuisance for everyone else?

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Joining us tonight in the Senedd

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is the AM, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, from Plaid Cymru,

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Rhys Williams from the Labour Party,

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and Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses.

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Are you an energetic and committed person who fancies a new challenge?

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Well, Assembly Members have approved the process

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of appointing Wales' first language commissioner.

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Someone that will be a champion and an advocate for the language.

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But before you start revamping that CV,

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you also need the wisdom of Solomon and and patience of Job.

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That's according to the former minister

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who was responsible for forming the position.

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Yes, the First Minister is looking for a special applicant

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to fill an important role.

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Yesterday, the Assembly was given a summary of the job description

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by someone who is famous for being blunt.

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However, it wasn't Lord Alan Sugar.

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The commissioner will be a champion and an advocate for the language

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and will also play a crucial role

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in developing and raising language standards.

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So the reward for the successful applicant will be the opportunity

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to be at the forefront, protecting and promoting

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one of the most contentious issues in Welsh politics -

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the Welsh language.

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How hard can that be?

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He or she will need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of Job,

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the cunning of Salome and the chutzpa of King David.

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If you can find a person like that, all the better!

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This person will be a regulator.

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Now, that in itself could be a dry and worthless role.

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We can't afford to have that kind of person.

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We've accomplished so much with regard to the Welsh language

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over the last few years and we need to keep that momentum going.

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This person can not be a lap dog to anyone.

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-Would you apply?

-Well, it's going to be a challenge for anyone.

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Even if the commissioner is not a lap dog,

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he or she will be answerable to the Welsh Government.

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Do you regret not making the position answerable

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to the entire Assembly, considering you are now in opposition?

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The Government decides how much money will be available,

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and the commissioner needs to be able to talk to the Government.

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Every time a new commissioner is appointed, the question will arise.

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Is it the establishment's commissioner

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or the people's commissioner?

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The big difference for the Welsh Language Board

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is that the commissioner will be able to issue fines.

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The commissioner will also inherit expertise,

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with two thirds of the Board's staff being adopted by the commissioner's

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office when the work of the Board ends in March next year.

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The rest will join the ranks of the Government's civil servants.

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But before disappearing,

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the Board is determined to win one final battle.

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The row over the translation of the Assembly's record.

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The response has been very positive from the new presiding officer.

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She wants to find a way forward

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and she's been looking at ways of offering a translation

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that is available in other European countries.

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Maybe that's a challenge for me as a chair.

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That I can say, at the end of my term,

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one of the last things I did was sort out the record.

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So there's no doubt about it.

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The work of the commissioner's office will be very different

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to the work of the Welsh Language Board.

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The first commissioner will have significant freedom

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to define the position according to his or her priorities.

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However, nobody denies the size of the challenge,

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especially at the moment.

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It's ironic that we've just seen status for the language,

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and the referendum for more powers being won,

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but we're still fighting for these things.

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We still have to fight to keep our Welsh TV channel.

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It's easy to support both languages if you're a business,

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if you're in the private sector.

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The decisions that organisations have to make

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concerning the use of the language in the workplace and in business

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is also a challenge for us.

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So many pieces of the jigsaw are moving.

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It's as if the wind is blowing in favour of the language.

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If you think of Welsh as a sailboat,

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there are many favourable winds and breezes.

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However, we've lost ground with regard to the places

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where the Welsh language is used naturally and regularly.

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So it's as if the tide is going back

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but the wind's in our favour.

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Under such circumstances, and for this job at least,

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finding an apprentice is not the objective.

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Rhodri Glyn Thomas, you wear several hats in this area.

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One Assembly committee has chosen you as the person

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to represent the Assembly in the selection of the commissioner.

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What kind of person are you expecting to appoint?

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That CV from Alun Ffred was very ambitious, wasn't it?

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Yes.

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I think you could add thick skin to the list Ffred made.

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We all know that Welsh speakers can be very critical.

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We've all been there. Rhys has been there. I've been there.

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There are many Welsh speakers who spend all their time

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criticising other people instead of doing something for the language.

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So there will be criticism.

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The big question is, will this commissioner have credibility?

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Will people be able to trust the commissioner

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and the work the commissioner's office does?

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I would argue that the example is the way Peter Clarke,

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when he was appointed as the Children's Commissioner,

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established and built that commission

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and ensured that everyone had complete trust in them.

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If the language commissioner can do that,

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something important will have happened.

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However, one dilemma continues.

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The Government has not managed to separate the responsibility

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with regard to regulation and promotion.

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I don't think you can do the two things.

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The Government has to say what exactly the commissioner's role is.

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But to some extent,

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isn't it likely that if the commissioner is a strong person,

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he or she will define the position?

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He or she will decide where the boundaries are and what the role is.

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I think that's the main qualification.

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The commissioner will have to show that he or she has a clear vision

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of the role and what needs to be achieved to ensure

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that we have a situation in Wales where the two languages are equal

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and that people's rights to use either language are protected.

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Rhys, you need to be a diplomat, a policeman, a judge.

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To what extent will the individual have to shape the position?

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I think that's the case.

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I agree with Rhodri when he talked about Peter Clarke.

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He defined the position and it took two years.

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I remember seeing this man with no tie,

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he didn't look like a civil servant,

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but after two years, he'd convinced people.

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It's a bit like being the manager of a football team.

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It depends on the results after two years.

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So you want a people's commissioner, not the establishment's commissioner?

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The people.

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Someone the people can turn to and trust.

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Iestyn, is it important that this person has a high profile?

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People have said that the Board...

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People don't feel they can go to the Board to complain.

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They don't feel they know the members of the Board

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and who runs the Board.

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There's no one person they can turn to and say, this is my problem.

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It's important that this role convincesnon Welsh speakers.

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We all know what the Welsh Language Board and who's on it.

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To do that, we need to make sure people trust this person,

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the body and the status

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and everything that comes with this role.

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This is one person,

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but it's important that the precedent is there as well.

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And are small businesses eager to see the role being filled,

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or are they concerned that this policeman or policewoman

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will create problems for them?

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You've given evidence to the committee,

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and you said that they would respond better

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to requests rather than legislation.

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Small businesses face legislation and rules every day.

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So the important role for the commissioner is to promote

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and ensure that the agenda moves forward

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and also to mark where we are in terms of Welsh language legislation.

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-And to fine?

-No. Not in my opinion or the opinion of small businesses.

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What is needed is support and promotion,

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as the Language Board is already doing with us,

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to enable small businesses to use the Welsh language

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and promote the role of the language in modern Wales.

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If there too much policing and fining, will that have

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a negative effect on the language?

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I think there is a balance to be had.

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You need the trust of people that are fighting for their rights.

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And you need the trust and respect of non-Welsh speakers,

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so is there fairness and is the language given too much favouritism?

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That is the kind of balance the commissioner will have to find.

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But are you confident... I know of a council not far from

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where Iestyn lives that has been working towards a Welsh website

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for the past four years and all they have at the moment

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is Google Translate. Are you confident that a commissioner

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can give a kick up the backside where maybe the Board has failed?

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The commissioner will have much stronger powers than the Board.

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The Board does a lot of work in securing language plans.

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That is going to change now, but the commissioner will be able

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to ensure that happens and that people who want to use Welsh

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-have the right to do so.

-Now, you have another hat, Rhodri.

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You're the person on the commission, responsible for the language,

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so we'll leave you 'til last.

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Iestyn Davies, are you one of those who see this as something symbolic,

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that the bilingual record is needed?

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No, but I would like to see a bilingual record.

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Unless the Assembly and the Government, as part of that process,

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cannot ensure that the record is translated regularly,

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what option do they have when telling businesses what to do?

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Do you agree, Rhys? It's a waste of money, according to some.

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There's nothing I love more when I'm in Cardiff

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than going to the supermarket and seeing all the bilingual signs.

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Years ago, people would have said "It's not practical,

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"people don't understand it."

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But it's important, as a matter of principle,

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that people see these signs.

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A lot of people go to supermarkets, not many read the Assembly record.

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Well, I don't know. Today, before coming on this programme,

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I wanted to know what a certain word was in Welsh.

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I was looking at the terms from the Assembly.

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And it said... "Mynegai..." "Manwerthu..."

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Well, I've forgotten now. I wouldn't remember it tomorrow anyway.

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But it's nice that we can turn to the Assembly

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for standard language.

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There was a time when people turned to the Bible for that.

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So what about your personal opinion, Rhodri?

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My personal opinion has been put on the record a number of times.

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I complained when the decision was made back in 2009.

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I gave evidence before the board set up to review the decision.

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I argued the case in favour of a bilingual record.

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I still believe that there is a question of status here.

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What is changing is that the Language Board

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has said that we have gone against the Assembly's language strategy

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and we must respond positively.

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So are we to take from that there will probably be a bilingual record

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-eventually?

-Well, there are practical problems.

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There are cost problems. I think we must look at the situation

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where translation companies can charge the prices they do charge.

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That was the biggest problem.

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It cost nearly 400,000 originally for a record within 24 hours.

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That is not practical for the Assembly or anyone else.

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So we must raise questions about that. Technology is changing.

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But in the long-term, I must put the case forward

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and I must persuade the three other commissioners and Presiding Officer

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to support this, and we need to look at the technology

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and see if there is a way for us to use the technology

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-to make it more cost effective.

-Do you think Dafydd Elis Thomas

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has been wise in raising this?

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Dafydd had arguments that were very important at the time.

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The biggest argument was - should all this money be spent

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on a record that had been translated into Welsh in written form,

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-were there other things we could do?

-But whatever the argument,

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a former Language Board chairman as Presiding Officer

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broke the Assembly's language strategy.

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That was incredible, wasn't it?

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Well, the Assembly had every right to change the language strategy.

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-But not break it.

-What should have happened,

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for some reason it didn't, there should have been talks

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with the Board regarding this and an agreement should have been reached

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between the Assembly and the Board.

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That is what we have to do now.

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Whatever the result, we will have to reach an agreement

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with the Language Board regarding the way we move on from here.

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Right. Thank you. 750,000 teachers and civil servants

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will strike tomorrow in a dispute over pensions.

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David Cameron has urged people not to strike,

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but hundreds of schools in Wales are expected to close.

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There are strong feelings on both sides of the dispute.

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Businesses and parents are facing problems as a result of the action.

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I think we will have the support of a lot of parents.

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Parents are aware that teachers are not paid high wages

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and that the pension is part of the agreement in the public sector.

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This attack on pensions by the coalition is daft.

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If other people can strike, then anyone should have the right.

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But personally, I don't agree with it.

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Well, that's why you go on strike.

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You hit the parents and the parents have the vote.

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They can vote to tell the Government "This isn't right.

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"You have to do something."

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I'm not happy about it because of childminding, you know.

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It's unfortunate if children can't go to school.

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Parents have to stay at home. It affects business.

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I don't think the teachers have the support from the public

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in striking. We have problems with pensions,

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talks must be held, I don't think striking is the answer.

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As the voice of the private sector here tonight, Iestyn,

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do you have any sympathy with those striking tomorrow?

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To an extent, of course.

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We have a membership that is married,

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or can see the challenge and the problem.

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It's not a question of the private sector not agreeing

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with the public sector - there is a strong argument here.

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But I don't think that there is much sympathy from the private sector

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towards those people who have decided that strike action

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is the way forward - where was this movement, this protest,

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when Bosch was going bust?

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Where is this protest when the high street is suffering,

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when shops are closing, businesses are closing?

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If you really want to fight against the problem we face

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as a nation, as an economy, because of the recession...

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It depends on the strength of the unions in the different sectors.

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Yes, certainly. And we all accept that the unions

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are now stronger in the public sector.

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But rhetoric is one thing, of course.

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Another question is can they achieve anything through this process?

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I don't think they can.

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The private sector has that option to strike from time to time,

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but we need to find another way to compromise.

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Rhys, isn't it the case that even if the country wasn't in the state

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that it is, we're all living longer, pensions must be adapted,

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the Government doesn't want to change what people have paid for,

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they're just saying - from now on, as you're living longer,

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you will have to pay more and take less. It's not unreasonable.

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What is ahead is that teachers will be paying more,

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working longer and receiving less at the end.

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But receiving less for a much longer period, an average.

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Isn't that the point?

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The point is that any union worth its salt wouldn't accept that.

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Iestyn was saying they should hold talks.

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The unions have been trying to hold talks.

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And the Government has said, this is their style these days,

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that is strength, that they will not hold talks...

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But the question is, are the unions and the teachers,

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who will affect a lot of us as parents and businesses tomorrow,

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do they accept that the bar has moved?

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As Vaughan says, we're living longer,

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things have changed, compared with the way it was.

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They say about living longer... One thing the Government has done

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is bring the elderly and younger people together.

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The younger people these days, the newly qualified teachers,

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instead of paying 6.4%, they'll be paying 9.8%.

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Now then, I have a relative who works in the private world

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and she said, "Oh, that is awful!"

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"Starting off with a mortgage and all the things you need..."

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"In the private sector, it goes up gradually.

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"Is there another option?" I said, "No."

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You opt out of a pension.

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Rhodri, Vince Cable has warned that if the strikes go ahead,

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there will be legislation to restrict the power of the unions,

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if you like, that they must have a clear majority in a vote,

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so are the unions damaging themselves by striking tomorrow?

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I think there must be respect on both sides.

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If you take our situation, as elected members here,

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there will be a strike and there will be picketing here.

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I won't be crossing the picket line tomorrow.

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I respect the unions' right to strike and argue their case,

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regarding what is happening, but the unions must show the same respect.

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If all the unions are going to come and picket the Senedd,

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as elected members, we cannot carry out our jobs.

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Tomorrow, those picketing will be people that work here.

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They have the right to do that and we should respect that.

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-You'll be working elsewhere.

-I'll be in Brussels tomorrow.

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But even if I were here, I wouldn't be crossing the picket line.

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But this question of respect is a huge question here.

0:22:030:22:08

I don't want to return to a situation where the unions

0:22:080:22:11

are stopped from expressing their opposition to Government policy,

0:22:110:22:15

that would be totally unacceptable.

0:22:150:22:18

Talking of respect, Rhys, some parents who have to rearrange

0:22:180:22:24

childcare tomorrow - they have terrible problems

0:22:240:22:27

when they try and take a child out of school to go on holiday,

0:22:270:22:32

so what does that say about teachers, that they're prepared

0:22:320:22:36

to deny children education in that way...?

0:22:360:22:39

You're talking about respect, Vaughan.

0:22:390:22:42

What respect has the Government shown towards teachers

0:22:420:22:46

when they change the pensions at the last minute,

0:22:460:22:51

-when they change...

-They're not changing anything

0:22:510:22:55

where people have already paid for it.

0:22:550:22:59

They will have to pay more for their pensions.

0:22:590:23:02

-In the future.

-There has been a change in the policy deal

0:23:020:23:09

because of the huge changes that have taken place

0:23:090:23:12

since the pension system was established.

0:23:120:23:16

In these talks, no-one is denying that.

0:23:160:23:19

But at the same time, they need to find a third way, if you like,

0:23:190:23:25

to move forward on this subject.

0:23:250:23:28

And why should someone who works in the private sector

0:23:280:23:32

work for longer to pay taxes to pay for pensions for teachers

0:23:320:23:39

-and nurses and so on?

-If you are a parent or anyone,

0:23:390:23:43

common sense says there will be a crisis in 15 years

0:23:430:23:47

when teachers are in their 50s and 60s,

0:23:470:23:51

it will break down and there will be a crisis

0:23:510:23:55

and I take no pleasure in saying that.

0:23:550:23:59

Rhodri Glyn Thomas, is part of the problem here

0:23:590:24:02

that politicians so far have not changed their pensions plans?

0:24:020:24:06

That is a fact and it's easy for David Cameron and George Osborne,

0:24:060:24:12

who are millionaires independently, to tell ordinary workers -

0:24:120:24:16

you must accept these cuts and we're all in it together.

0:24:160:24:21

It's easy for a millionaire to say that.

0:24:210:24:24

On that note, we must leave it for tonight.

0:24:240:24:27

Thank you for joining us this evening.

0:24:270:24:30

We'll be back at the slightly later time of 10.30pm next Wednesday.

0:24:300:24:35

-Until then, goodnight.

-Goodnight.

0:24:350:24:37

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