Wed, 28 Sep 2011 CF99

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Stay with us for discussion and questioning and a lot of fun.

Tonight, lessons for Labour on Merseyside.

How can the power of the party in Wales revive the UK party

and as Scotland creeps towards independence,

what's the future of devolution?

We are joined by the deputy Agriculture Minister, Alun Davies,

and Alun Cairns from the Conservatives and Jonathan Edwards.

He's from Plaid Cymru.

I'm not Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, I am me and that was the message

from Ed Miliband, who is in Liverpool this week with his party.

The little brother believes he is opening a new chapter in the history

of the party, but is there lessons to be learnt from the party in Wales?

The docks area in Liverpool has been transformed in the last few years.

The old port has been revived with shops and restaurants.

The Labour Party hopes it can revive the party

and attract the voters once again.

It was a clear message in the speech of Ed Miliband.

A new bargain in our economy shows that reward is linked to effort,

a new bargain based on values so we can pay our way in the world,

a new bargain to ensure responsibility from top to bottom.

It will be tough to change Britain.

But, I'm up for the fight.

But while the UK party tries to find out what went wrong

in the 2010 General Election, the Welsh members here feel victorious

after they increased their vote in May.

At the Welsh evening at the conference,

Ed Milliband said Carwyn Jones is preparing the ground

for a Labour government in Westminster.

On every measure Welsh Labour won the election.

And importantly for the party it sent a message across these islands,

a message that, despite the outcome of the last General Election

Labour is back in the saddle.

It's setting out another vision to people right across the UK.

We are doing very well in Wales under Carwyn Jones.

All the problems we have had in Wales,

we have dealt with them.

Under Ed Miliband sometimes we feel like he stands back.

It's important to create strong principles

and build more detailed policies.

What we need to start with is to increase confidence in the party.

We need to show what Labour can do.

The opinion polls show Labour is doing better than the Conservatives.

We have to send out key messages

that only Labour can protect our public services.

There might be another three-and-a-half years

until the General Election, but as Carwyn Jones announced

his programme of work,

there are signs that some within the party are looking towards

Welsh Labour to help them lead the party back to power in Westminster.

Alun Davies, you were not in Liverpool,

but I'm sure you listened to the speech.

A lot of people said there were interesting ideas in there,

but it did not sound like the speech of somebody

who would lead Labour back to power.

It was nice to hear somebody talking about personal values.

You don't hear it very often.

I was very happy to hear him talking about his values.

And how his values would lead him

while we are in opposition in Westminster.

But as a party in power here in Cardiff

we are showing how our values can lead the party in government.

If I had just lost my job or worried about my job or losing my house

I wouldn't want to hear about this man's values.

I would want to know what Labour would do to save my house.

That is what we are doing here in power in Cardiff.

We are showing how the party can protect jobs

and protect the public sector and invest in the economy.

We are doing that here.

We also need to work with the party in Westminster

to show leadership across Britain.

How important is it for Labour on a UK level that this Government

here in Wales is a successful one?

I think it is becoming more and more important.

We have already heard that doctors have said that they would

rather work in the NHS here than across the border.

As the success of the Government here strengthens the economy

and strengthens public services, I think more people will come.

It's an opportunity for us in Wales.

We hear very often about people complaining

and this is an opportunity to show what we can do in Wales.

Jonathan Edwards, Ed Milliband said good businesses

would be rewarded and volunteers too.

Is it right for politicians to say things like that?

Ed Milliband comes across as a nice man.

I don't know him personally.

He spent most of the conference apologising for their poor record.

I am not sure whether that was the best thing to do.

Labour is not going to win the next general election

with Ed Miliband in charge.

The reason for that is that the economy has been dominating

the political agenda during the last government

and it will continue to do so in the next few years.

The main two men in Labour were advisers to Gordon Brown.

They haven't got an economic policy.

But they have brought the plan B forward haven't they, Alun Cairns?

Ed Balls has underlined that in his speech.

They are in a very difficult situation,

because every call they've made on the economy recently,

they are not sure whether they are apologising for the mess

in the economy, and they don't know what to do

apart from vote against the cuts the Government is making in Westminster.

They are in a difficult position.

If we go back to IDS, he found it difficult

to relate to the public and that is Ed Milliband's problem as well.

But is this deja vu, the Conservatives were out of power

and you tried William Hague and Michael Howard and IDS,

it was one after another?

Does it matter who the Labour Party leader is, does it just take time?

That's true.

There was an article in the Times this week

talking about the people deciding the future of William Hague

after he became the leader of the Conservative Party,

but the people who criticised him then support him and his style.

I think it's very difficult for the Labour Party.

I don't think Ed Milliband can lift the party's morale.

Do you think they chose the wrong brother?

I was in Liverpool and David Miliband had more attention than his brother.

He was only there for one night. All the cameras followed him.

There was charisma. There was a fuss surrounding him.

You create that because you followed him around.

You create the story and then report it.

Oh no! There was a buzz! He was marching like a soldier.

We all know what happens in these places.

Would you prefer to have had David Miliband as leader?

I voted for David Milliband.

The election is over.

It's been over for a year and we have to move on.

It's not always easy, but you have to do it.

When we look at the larger picture in Britain at the moment,

when I look at Ed Miliband and look at where we are at the moment,

not back to IDS or William Hague but I think back to Gordon Brown.

When he was leading the West' response to the economic crisis.

We both got the G8 in London when President Obama came over here

to listen to what Gordon Brown had to say.

It's obvious now when you look at the eurozone and what is happening,

it's lack of leadership and I think that will be

a big political subject in the next few years.

Where do you stand on this apology business?

Do you think there's been too much of it and Labour needs to apologise?

I agreed with every word he said,

but I don't think it's the best political tactic.

When you talk about lessons from Wales, the Labour Party strategists

look at the community belt around London, that is the key target.

The same programme will not be put forward

in the General Election as here in Wales.

I don't think that is going to be relevant.

It's an interesting debate now,

because there is a different party in charge in London and Cardiff.

We see a difference between Labour in Cardiff and London.

Ed Miliband said this week that tuition fees would be introduced

and Labour would charge £6,000, but why don't they do it in Wales?

There are differences between the parties in Westminster and Cardiff.

You know and I know

and we all know that in a devolved country

we are going to have different policies here.

Yes, but it's going to be hard to do that in the long term.

What is the problem with that?

The point about the fees is interesting,

because what they are going to do is introduce the Tory light programme.

What kind of message is that?

They will treble tuition fees in England and Labour will double it.

What kind of message is that?

I don't see Ed Miliband as a Tory light.

He's so far to the left. He's so far to the left.

By rewarding people who volunteer in the Big Society?

He can see the message from Cameron

and he can see it is being positively received.

If we look at his speech and what he said about business,

obviously he is not on top of his game with business.

When the economy is in a difficult period

you have to support and push businesses.

Not take the attitude he takes at the moment.

The success of the SNP in Scotland and the promise of a referendum

on independence has caused a headache for politicians in the UK.

How do you fight back with regard to message and heritage?

What will be the result of the referendum?

What will the effect of independence be on the UK?

These are difficult questions, but Karl Roberts enjoys a challenge.

In Scotland, the SNP wants to hold a referendum on independence.

It's a decision that has caused controversy.

Murdo Fraser has said that the image needs to be changed,

while Labour says it has changed its policies to strengthen its leader.

In Wales, David Melding says the Conservatives here

the brainy deputy Presiding Officer,

should consider changing their name and try to be more independent.

Plaid Cymru, they want us to look at how practical

independence would be for Wales.

Should Welsh Labour in Government try to distance

itself from the national party?

That's within the next few weeks and we'll know the commission

that looks at the future of devolution in Wales.

That commission is expected to report back in two years' time.

Alright?

You went over two seconds!

Jonathan Edwards, you have written a lot about this,

calling on the other parties to devolve more

with regard to structure, but that could be bad news for you?

I think that is the natural development from devolution.

There are two dynamics in politics. Especially the Celtic countries.

Now you have the traditional left-right dynamic

and the dynamic between the unionists and the nationalism.

The political structures we have to respond to those two.

I don't think the structure we have at the moment responds to that.

You would lose your USP then as a Wales-only party?

The parties brand themselves as Welsh anyway.

I've got strong feelings about the use of that term.

They aren't really Welsh parties.

If they brand themselves like that, then they should devolve completely.

Alun Cairns, David Melding wants to rename your party

and call it Forwards.

Nick Bourne wasn't keen. What do you think?

David Melding talked about this a few years ago,

when the Conservative Party in Wales was having a difficult time.

They were trying to relate to the public.

I am very glad that that phase has passed.

It's important we remain relevant and positive.

I think we should keep the name.

If the Welsh Conservative Party wants to change the name,

it could, because it is independent.

David Cameron is eager to give people as much freedom as possible.

Going back to devolution, I'm not necessarily against devolving

more powers to Cardiff Bay,

but we have had a referendum and constitutional changes recently.

We do not see the Government in Cardiff Bay

responding to and using that power.

We're asking for more devolution all the time,

it's fine when it is needed,

but even when they have the power they don't use it.

Alun Davies, on this question of political structure,

are you a fan of the changes you are seeing in Scotland,

where the party leader actually leads the party

and is not just a member of the troupe,

and decisions are made locally?

Or do you think the structure is fine as it is?

On the point of what's happening in Scotland,

I've been thinking about how it will affect us in Wales,

and how we should respond,

I can't think of any occasion where the party in Westminster,

the British party, has told us that we have to do and what we can't do.

We make policies for Wales in Wales.

Our Assembly is in Wales and we make policy for Wales.

-And we have a leader like Carwyn.

-But he isn't party leader in Wales.

We have a leader like Carwyn Jones and he has the mandate to do that.

-It's all semantics.

-What Alun Davies says it wrong.

Oh! Thanks for that!

In Wales you want to reform the Barnett formula

but Ed Balls is against that. He's the one that would have to deliver.

What you don't understand is the Barnett formula is a British policy.

It's a Treasury policy.

If you want to change it, you have to change it on the UK level.

What I'm talking about, maybe you didn't understand,

is when we talk about reform of the NHS for example,

we can do that in Wales and nobody in England tells us how to do it.

Why promise to reform the formula in your Assembly manifesto

knowing full well that Ed Balls opposes it?

Because that is the policy of the Government here in Cardiff.

We need to discuss with the Treasury,

like I hold discussions with Defra and others in Westminster,

to change their policies.

But there is a question, a difficult one that sounds rather technical,

Labour members and journalists in Scotland

tell me that Labour suffered

because it based its organisation on the Westminster government.

On the Westminster constituencies, which differ to Parliamentary ones.

The same thing will happen in Wales.

What should the unit be? Assembly or Parliamentary constituency?

I would say that they are just as important.

It's not often I agree with Alun Davies,

I think it's semantics when you talk about who the leader is in Wales.

Whether it be Carwyn Jones, Ed Miliband,

Andrew RT Davies or David Cameron.

Because to be honest in the Conservatives and the Labour Party,

you have the freedom to form your own policies

on education on the NHS and any devolved matter.

If it's semantics, is it symbolic?

No. I think it's a media construct.

I have to go back to the Barnett cormula,

I must respond to the point that was made,

because the only people stopping the reform of that is Scotland.

Plaid Cymru works closely with the SNP in Westminster.

I didn't know the SNP was so powerful!

Plaid Cymru works closely with the SNP in Westminster

but you need to influence them so they can accept policy change.

On the point of the Labour Party in Scotland,

in the changes they are introducing now in terms of the leadership race,

they are going to cast their nets far and wide

to include European MPs.

Will Plaid Cymru do the same as you look for a new leader?

You would be eligible to stand!

Well, I don't think so!

I think the political focus of Plaid Cymru is clear.

On the institution behind us.

It's important that the political leader

is somebody who can talk in this chamber.

I don't think there's any doubt about that.

If I may raise an abstract question, theological, even.

If Scotland was to vote in favour of independence,

and becomes independent,

Wouldn't you have to look again

at the settlement between Wales, England and Northern Ireland?

I'm sure there would be a debate if that happened in Scotland,

but the Welsh and English economy are so closely linked.

The culture, not only the economic culture,

but policy culture, is closer between Wales and England,

so there is a big difference in image in Scotland and England.

It's totally different to the relationship

between Wales and England.

It will be a debate, but I'm not worried about it.

Ed Miliband has said tonight that he will wake up

to that debate in Scotland

and attack the importance of the union in his opinion.

David Cameron has also said that he thinks it's important.

Have politicians south of Scotland been sleeping on this issue?

If you want me to be completely honest,

I would like Wales to grow out of this obsession with Scotland.

I'm fed up of discussing Scotland.

I want to talk about the future of Wales.

What happens in Scotland could transform what is happening in Wales.

When we talk about devolution in this place,

I want to see devolution in Wales, on behalf of Wales.

I don't want a knee-jerk reaction in Wales

because of what happens in Scotland.

I want to see a constitutional settlement for us. For Wales.

The reason Scotland is so important, of course,

is because equality with Scotland

is one of the strongest messages in Welsh politics.

That's what prompted the referendum result.

Developments in Scotland will affect Wales.

That's totally irrelevant to the referendum.

We must also remember the influence of Alex Salmond.

Our time is up, I'm afraid. Thank you all.

That's it for another week.

We'll be back at the same time next week.

We'll be concentrating

on the Conservative conference in Manchester.

There will be plenty to discuss.

-Join us then. Goodnight.

-Goodnight.