Wed, 12 Oct 2011 CF99

.

Good evening. On tonight's programme, another commission on devolution.

Have politicians in Cardiff got too much power

but not enough responsibility?

And the minister says it is time to bury the University of Wales.

Is it time to say Amen to one of Wales's oldest institutions?

Our guests are the Assembly Members, Keith Davies from Labour

and Rhodri Glyn Thomas from Plaid Cymru.

Joining us from London we have the Conservative MP, Guto Bebb.

We've had The Richard Commission, Sir Emyr's convention

the Calman Commission and now we have the Silk Commission

on the future of devolution.

The Westminster Government has confirmed that Paul Silk

will look at the Assembly's financial and law making powers.

This is Elliw Gwawr.

This year, the majority of people in Wales voted

on further powers for the Welsh Assembly.

It's an important step for devolution.

But if people thought that would be the end of the journey,

this is the just the beginning. As the Welsh Secretary announced

what the Commission will look at,

experts came here to the Norwegian Church.

There was plenty for them to think about.

In the period after the referendum

we thought that would be it for a while.

But there will be many changes for Wales over the next three years,

especially when we move towards the referendum

for independence for Scotland.

The devolution changes that we have had have stemmed completely

from internal politics within the Labour Party.

What was acceptable to the Labour Party was in the '98 law,

what was acceptable to the Labour Party was in the 2006 law.

Now we have an opportunity where we have a cross-party group

who are going to look at the whole picture.

That could be a very far reaching thing.

There was a free breakfast on offer in that meeting,

but we will all have to pay our way.

At the moment, the Assembly Government gets a grant

from the Treasury, but Cheryl Gillan has said it's time for the Assembly

to take responsibility for the money it spends.

The power to raise or lower taxes in Wales

be something the public and businesses

will find difficult to swallow?

We would appreciate it here.

It would be great for small businesses in this economic climate.

VAT is at 20%, so it would help and bring more people into our business.

One of the biggest questions is are we looking at bits and pieces,

such as elements in taxation such as stamp duty

or are we going to look at creating something comprehensive

such as creating a real Treasury for Wales,

where we look at things like income tax and small business tax?

Apparently they will start with an open mind.

I think it is important that we go into this task

with a clear mind.

We need to look at what has been done already and work through that.

And we need to move forward from that.

We need a solution that will benefit Wales.

There are some things that they will not be discussing in the commission.

Those include borrowing powers, how much money the Assembly receives

through the Barnett Formula and how Members are elected.

We will be discussing it all as a big package.

That includes measures to raise money through things like bonds.

It will be included in one package.

We should deal with one thing before moving on to another.

But whatever the Commission's results,

the Westminster Government will have the final word

and will decide if they agree with the decisions made.

Guto Bebb, the UK Government has started this process.

What do you think will come from this?

Do you agree with the point that was just made,

that the Labour Party has driven this process forward?

It will definitely have an effect on the decisions which are made.

The Labour Party in Wales isn't taking responsibility

for raising money in Wales.

The Labour Party are eager enough to condemn the tax cuts

but they don't want the responsibility

of how money is raised in Wales.

It is going to be a very open process.

It is good to see that the UK coalition government is ready

to have open talks with all the parties involved

rather than pleasing certain groups within one party.

The problem Labour has could be, there is a problem in Wales

with how much tax is being raised.

Scotland can have a row over oil,

but the tax base in Wales is very small.

I think that is a very important point that needs to be considered.

What we hear from the Assembly is the Westminster Government

is going to cut the taxes, that can be seen as being unfair.

We want to look at the tax raising situation in Wales.

We don't want to show that Wales is a poor country,

but we need to have a mature discussion

and find out how many taxes are raised in Wales

and what contribution the Treasury makes.

Keith Davies, do you think that the politicians in Cardiff Bay

have got too much power since the referendum

without any responsibility to find this money?

If we go back to the Yes campaign back in March,

all parties said we did not want responsibility for raising taxes.

Then the majority of Wales apart from Monmouthshire decided

that they wanted more powers for the Assembly,

but not the power to raise taxes. That's what the people wanted.

What do you make of this Commission?

We will have to wait and see what comes out of this commission.

We know that Carwyn Jones is not in favour of raising taxes.

-That's true.

-Do you support him?

-I do support him.

I didn't know this until I heard about this Commission business,

we're not going to be allowed to borrow money.

I think that is a weakness.

The smallest communities in Wales can raise money...

-That's a weakness in the Commission?

-That is a great weakness.

Rhodri Glyn, what do you hope to see come out of this Commission?

Due to what is happening in Scotland,

it seems the Westminster Government has had to implement

different processes.

They are concerned about allowing the Commission to discuss Barnett

due to wider implications.

What do you think the Commission can do?

I'm going to start by agreeing with Guto which doesn't happen often.

I think it's very important that we have a mature discussion

and that we look at the situation as a whole and we see what is possible.

I accept what Cheryl Gillian has said about responsibility.

We need responsibility for what is happening in Wales.

We had a discussion about it in the Chamber today

about the different options available.

There is the option of the £38.9 million grant

that comes from the Barnett Formula after the coalition decided

to freeze council tax in England. What can we do about that?

There is a way of getting £600 million from that.

Jeremy Holtham says if we take 1% percentage of the Assembly budget

we can save £2.6 billion a year.

I think we should look in detail at that option

as well as the post-devolution settlement.

We need a very mature discussion across the parties

to see what the options are and to see what we can do.

Is it a fair discussion?

What would you have to say about Rachel Banner's comments

from the No campaign in the referendum?

Where is their voice here?

There is no-one against this on the commission.

Rachel Banner has been arguing that is what

they were concerned about at the time.

I think that's a fair point.

The problem we have in Wales at the moment is there is a tendency

to move from one constitutional option to another.

We seem to tell the people of Wales over and over again,

let us have these powers and the Assembly will work for us.

Let us have these powers and things will be OK.

We will come to the point where people will say,

"Why don't you deliver what you have promised?"

They aren't arguing against the Commission.

I think we need to be careful

that we do not become seen to be creating a talking shop,

while Wales falls further behind other parts of Britain,

in relation to poverty and economic growth.

It's important not to complicate the situation.

We do not want people to think the Assembly is failing them.

In the end, everyone wants the Assembly to be a success.

-Is it another step on the slippery slope?

-I don't think so.

I accept Guto's point, as well as the point Keith made earlier.

We spoke to the Welsh people in the referendum. They had their say.

People in Wales will not forgive us

if they think there was a hidden agenda

and that we're trying to move things further

than we originally told them during the referendum.

We need the people of Wales to trust us,

but there are opportunities here for the first time

to have discussions across the parties

regarding the situation that is facing us at the moment.

Richard made a very important point.

This is the first time we will have discussions across the parties,

and it is a real chance for us to have a mature discussion.

Keith Davies, there is no reason why the commission

cannot work alongside the usual business of the Assembly,

but the problem is that people are worried about public services,

they are worried about losing jobs

and they are thinking, "They're concentrating on themselves again".

And the truth of the matter is,

I know we often blame Westminster, but they are to blame.

The Holtham Report discussed the Barnet Formula.

We are not being fairly financed.

We need more support in Wales than people in England.

If we can change that formula, then we can move forward

and look at having more responsibility over our budget.

You were in power year after year,

both in Westminster and in Cardiff.

But you haven't changed things.

I have not got the details,

but things have deteriorated over the past 12 years.

I read some statistics earlier today

that looked at how much we used to have a head in Wales

compared to those in England,

and we had something like 129% a head

more than they had in England back in 1999,

but that's now down to 110.

So the funds we've been getting have gradually decreased.

Thanks for the time being.

Judgment day is approaching for the University of Wales.

Education Minister Leighton Andrews has said he felt it was time to bury

the institution that, he believes, has damaged Wales' reputation.

He made his comments after UWIC announced it was leaving.

The other universities have called for the name to be dropped.

Mr Andrews called for the University Council's chairman to resign.

The situation that is facing the University of Wales is despicable.

It is very important that we see changes being made now.

The Assembly Government is considering the situation.

Leighton Andrews isn't the undertaker,

he does not have the constitutional power.

-Do you think he is right?

-He looks like an undertaker.

We talked about the need for a mature discussion about devolution.

I think we definitely need to have discussions about this issue.

We are all aware there have been obvious failings in the University.

There are new people in charge now. Medwin Hughes is Vice Chancellor.

He said he will get to grips with the situation.

I think it is too young to bury the institution yet.

The University of Wales brand is very important.

-It is now based in Southwest Wales.

-The brand is still important.

I would not like us to bury it without examining all the options.

They are in very deep waters and we must be aware of that.

There have been serious failings. Can we get to grips with those?

Or, as Leighton has said, should we bury the University of Wales?

I don't think we've reached that point.

People have an emotional attachmenttowards the University of Wales.

It has many institutions which are important to Wales.

But it is starting to damage the reputation of other institutions.

We've been getting emails from abroad asking if we're connected.

It is a difficult and fragile situation.

It is heart-breaking.

I attended the university because Aberystwyth was a part of it.

It has now broken up and that is very sad.

The University of Wales was a strong brand. But it's been destroyed.

The same happened with the WDA.

But the institution we have now isn't as I remember it.

I don't want to say it's the end.

Leighton Andrews is being aggressivetowards the HE and FE sectors.

He tends to implement from Cardiff without much discussion.

But the University of Wales is facing a very difficult situation.

Leighton Andrews wants fewer universities which co-operate more.

But he wants to do away with this umbrella organisation. Why?

It isn't a full umbrella any more.

The universities in Cardiff, Aberystwyth, Swansea and Bangor

no longer offer University of Wales degrees.

Do you think there is a hope of re-building that brand?

I do not see that happening.

The problem is the University of Wales is not answerable to anybody.

As Vaughan said earlier, they have plenty of assets across Wales.

I think that we, in the Assembly, should...

I believe they have £27 million in reserve and as assets.

Was it a mistake when the colleges tried to recreate the university

with new colleges and this massive international business?

At one point, it was Britain's second largest university.

But it seems the regulation was not strong enough.

With this kind of organisation, you need strong leadership.

It's obvious it was not there. The leadership was very weak.

Your only option is to change the situation.

Leighton Andrews has not said he'll get rid of it,

but he will study its management.

We have also been talking about the institutions in Wales, including S4C.

Is there enough scrutiny in our institutions?

As a nation, does Wales like to have power, but not the assessment?

There are institutions which have believed they were not answerable

and wouldn't have to justify anything they did.

Some, including S4C and University of Wales, have learned lessons.

They should be answerable.

The University of Wales situation is serious.

Let's discuss the situation and see what happens in future.

We can then see if it's possible to develop the brand for the future.

If not, I'll be happy enough to support calls for its abolishment.

But we haven't had the necessary discussion here, in the Chamber.

We need it before making any decisions.

You referred to Leighton Andrews' attitude towards the sector.

We can see that from the pressure on universities to merge.

As well as being answerable, there needs to be a distance

between politicians and the education system.

That's true. We have a number of educational establishments.

I have been talking to members of different bodies

who are being pushed to co-operate more with the Assembly.

When you ask them what the rationale is for working closer together,

they cannot see what it is, but the Assembly insists that they do it.

That isn't a mature attitude.

What we have is someone saying he has the power to make changes.

I think, in North Wales, we have some bodies that work well together.

They have to answer the Assembly's dictat and that's unfortunate.

You know that Andrews as a politician can be like a dog with a bone.

If he thinks we should get rid of the University of Wales,

that is what he will insist will happen.

Leighton Andrews is looking at this so that we have strong universities

that compete with universities across England and overseas.

That is not true, but there we are.

On Friday, the Assembly Commission's consultation

into the use of Welsh and English languages here will come to an end.

Has the debate over the decision

to withdraw bilingual records of proceedings raised its head again?

You are a language commissioner, it must have.

The irony is that, from that situation,

and as the first person to raise the issue and voice my opposition,

we have now reached a more cost-effective way of recording.

-What is that formula?

-We have new technology.

-We are translating with the use of this.

-Is it Google Translate?

-No.

Some people are opposed to that option.

There's Google Toolkit and there are other options as well.

At the moment, an assessment of options is taking place.

-Regarding cost?

-It will be more cost-effective.

The most exciting thing is that we will then be able

to help organisations throughout Wales to ensure they can have

a more effective way of translating, especially in the voluntary sector.

Translation costs can be expensive. It will save them a lot of money.

When you say, technology, are there actual people in this system?

There are editors. They will be able to write in Welsh.

It will be a more interesting process for the translators.

What do you think of this?

The decision to get rid of the bilingual record was disappointing.

If we can take a step forward with this, I would welcome it.

it is important to remember the small businesses in Wales.

We do not want this technology to ruin translators' livelihoods.

Keith? It sounds promising. We were glad to hear what Rhodri said.

We have got a lot of support for the Welsh language in the Assembly.

Thank you for joining us this evening.

We will be back at the same time next Wednesday.

All the best to Wales in the rugby on Saturday.

-Thank for watching. Good night.

-Good night.

.