Wed, 19 Oct 2011 at 10pm CF99

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Hello and welcome to a half-hour discussion here in the Senedd.

Tonight, who should lead them and in what direction?

The future of Plaid Cymru as it tries to step forward.

As the pressures increase,

what kind of shape will S4C and Welshbroadcasting be in?

We hear from the chairman of the authority, Huw Jones.

Tonight, we are joined by Euryn Ogwen Williams,

S4C's first director of programmes.

He's now a consultant on digital communication.

We have the chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones

and Paul Davies, the Tory deputy leader in the Assembly.

Welcome to you all.

This week, it was confirmed that the name of Plaid Cymru's next leader

will be announced on 15th March next year.

So far there are only two, Elin Jones and Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

At the same time, the party has started the process

of re-inventing itself. Elliw Gwawr has more.

No, not Gavin and Stacey but Helen Mary Jones and Dafydd Wigley

who were both in Gwynfor Evans's birth town to launch the timetable

for the new leadership race.

Only two people have put their names forward.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas has huge experience.

Elin Jones has been a wonderful minister

working in the coalition.

Either of them, or someone else whoare considering it

would lead the party into a new era and we'll see the party move forward

to be the country's next government.

If they want to fulfil that dream, prominent members acknowledge

that the support needs to be widened right across Wales.

The party has come a long way since the time of Gwynfor Evans,

but the same problems continue.

The party is still seen as a Welsh language party.

It is trying to tackle that challenge by holding meetings across Wales.

There was one in Cardiff tonight.

Earlier this week, they were in North Wales.

Here in Caernarfon, Plaid Cymru are holding the first

of their public meetings which will look at what went wrong

in the last Assembly elections and will look towards the future.

How to renew the party and increase its support before the next election.

This process of renewal is being led by Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym.

It is five years until the next election

so it's time for us now to discuss things.

We need to strengthen the party and move on.

Before winning political power we need public support.

We need to look internally at party members

and look at others who don't support the party.

Is it practical to get some of those to support the party?

But what was the response in Caernarfon?

I think we have been complacent in reaching our original targets

and maybe we have not looked forward to new targets.

Certainly in England, the English are becoming more nationalistic

andd I think the question of independence needs to be discussed.

I think we need to discuss it openly not only internally

but across Wales and within the party's supporters.

We are a left wing party.

That's not going to change.

We know what we believe in,

but it's a challenge of not changing where we stand

but putting across our message and touch the every day lives of people.

The work will be completed by the end of the year.

The challenge for the new leader is to ensure the process

leads to electoral success.

I don't want to make it obvious, but I'll start with you Paul Davies.

You had a race for the leadership recently.

On the whole, people would say it benefited the party.

In one sense, you had the same jobthat Helen Mary has now

which is to make sure that the contest is a positive one.

How can that be achieved? How did you do it?

It's important that for whoever looks at the contest

there's a fairness between the candidates.

I'm sure Helen Mary Jones will make sure of that.

If I was a member of Plaid Cymru, I'd be worried about the timetable

because it is quite long.

There is five months to go before the leader is chosen.

There is a danger the party will look at itself and not concentrate

on holding the Government to account for the people of Wales.

As an opposition it has a responsibility to do that.

What was striking in your leadership contest

where discussions between Nick Ramsey and Andrew RT Davies

showed differences between them but it was also used to put forward

quite similar messages to the public.

An election isn't just about yourself.

That's right.

Every party, when they choose a new leader, can do that

and the candidates have the opportunity to do that.

Looking at the contest we had recently, it was a very good contest

because it was an opportunity for us, as a party,

to extend outside of our membership.

Helen Mary Jones, let's get to the contest in your party.

I called it a marathon. What about the length of this contest?

Before the summer we were told Ieuan Wyn Jones was standing down.

So it would almost be a year.

If you think as to how Rhodri Morgan ensured that the process

of electing the new leader to the Labour Party went smoothly,

he announced his retirement years before he left.

No-one discussed him as a lame duck.

I accept what Paul Davies says but if you look at the performance

of our group in the Assembly they do hold the Government to account.

We are also preparing for local elections in May.

So, I think we can do the two things at the same time.

I know you are neutral as a chairman, but do you think the two candidates

at the moment, Dafydd Elis-Thomas and ELin Jones, offer a real choice?

Are they from different... Explain to us how they differ.

I have to be completely independent in this argument.

I think what is positive is that there will be a good choice.

-We have two candidates at the race already.

-More to come?

-There might be more to come.

-Leanne Wood?

You would have to ask Leanne.

One thing that has pleased me, as an old feminist,

is that one of the candidates is a woman.

There is an opportunity to have a female leader.

Not to say I'd orefer Elin over Dafydd.

The point has arrived where we have natural leaders, like Leanne.

There are other possible leaders within the party.

We do have good members.

Mr Jones has delayed in order to give the new members

time to settle in and give the public time to get to know them.

Euryn Ogwen Williams, I remember you standing for Plaid Cymru

around 40 years ago.

You must be old, Vaughan!

Isn't it strange when you look at it

that you hold the review that could tie the hands of the new leader?

You could have a new leader who won't like it.

I think the length of the process will help,

that someone goes through it all.

As Paul said, maybe it seems like a long time,

but on the other hand I don't think it is.

Brand is the important thing in the end.

Once someone goes into an election, what is the brand?

The key part of the brand is the leader.

Somebody creates the brand around him or her,

or rebranding if necessary.

I do think that it is...

And what do you make of the brands on offer at the moment?

I'm sure you don't want to give a personal preference,

but you are an expert in communication in the modern world.

Do the two of them offer that?

It's a very strong competition.

The digital media,

Twitter and Facebook.

They are all going to be important elements in the contest.

Especially among young people.

As we try and strengthen the party, people can now join on the internet.

When you talk about branding, anybody in advertising will say

is that you need a positive brand.

There is room for a bit of negativity.

You're supposed to be positive.

I went on Google the other day and I put in,

"Wales is losing out says Plaid Cymru."

There were 50,000 hits.

Is Plaid Cymru's re-branding a bit too negative at the moment?

What contradicts that is what happened in 2005.

to the Labour Party when Tony Blair was re-branded.

The negative aspects were used to bring people back to him.

The problem with the digital media is things stay out there forever.

If you say one wrong word it's out there forever.

You can't win.

If we don't stand up for Wales we're in trouble.

We have to say when things are unfair

but also we need to try and be positive.

What do you think the big issues of this contest should be?

The economy? Education? Health or the constitution and independence?

They go hand in hand.

We want to see an independent Wales.

Not just because we want Wales to be independent...

Is independence a big issue?

I don't think independence is a big issue.

We have to put forward the argument

as to how the economy would be better.

But why not be more honest about independence?

But we are.

The balance and discussion will be part of what Eurfyl and others

will be discussing in the review.

Going back to the point you made earlier,

I think it's important that we decide, as a party,

which direction we want to go in.

Then we elect the best leader to deliver that.

We have a good choice already, maybewe'll have more.

We need to know where we're going

before we can slot the best leader into the brand.

We have to use that kind of language.

Thank you. It's been a very difficult year for S4C.

This week it was confirmed Ian Jones will be the new chief executive

although he will not take the helm for a few months.

There is suggestion that a financial agreement between S4C and the BBC

which will provide the channel with money until 2017

is about to be announced.

Yesterday, I had the resposne of Huw Jones, the chair of S4C's authority

to these developments.

That would go beyond what was discussed with the BBC last October

between the BBC and the Secretary of State.

If it is the BBC's wish to give S4C more information,

on terms that are acceptable, that would be welcomed.

We would hope to see some kind of commitment

from the Secretary of State about the public money

for the two years in question.

You announced the name of the chief executive, even though it was known.

But you said he would not be starting until next April.

Is that a problem, considering what the channel's been through?

We would prefer the chief executive to start earlier

and that might happen.

The date that was announced as the latest possible date

for him to start.

There is a temporary chief executive in place.

They have the Authority's support.

The commissioning team is commissioning programmes.

So, we have confidence in the system.

The sooner we get the new chief executive, the better.

Elan Closs Stephens called for an end

to what she called the war between BBC and S4C.

Is that war over?

I would not agree with those words.

What you have here is two bodies with two conflicting principles.

Set out by the Secretary of State.

S4C wants to protect its independence

and the BBC wants to show that it's not being top-sliced.

They are difficult to resolve.

As a result, discussions have been very detailed.

Is it possible that through sharing technology and closer co-operation

between Radio Cymru and S4C, good things could come of this?

Of course, of course.

That will be one of the main tasks over the coming years,

to try and find out where there is possible co-operation,

so we can plan long-term,

so that co-operation is planned

in order to secure financial savings and benefits all round.

The principal for me is that it's possible for S4C,

considering all such offers,

that it's possible for S4C to take its own independent view

over whether the offer, whatever it is,

will benefit the channel and S4C's viewers.

You also announced that you wanted to end things like company cars

and private health schemes at S4C.

There is this image of people being paid a lot of money at the company.

How much has it harmed S4C?

I don't think it is a fair image at all.

It does exist.

Some people like creating that kind of image, for whatever reason.

I don't think it's an image that survives any

detailed investigation of the situation,

or any comparison to other public bodies.

Euryn Ogwen Williams, you were there right at the start.

There has been a lot of discussion about S4C's independence.

What does it mean to you,

because during your speech at the Wrexham Eisteddfod,

you talked about independence,

but you said you valued the freedom of the channel. What did you mean?

I think it would be a huge price to pay for editorial freedom

and freedom to work within Wales

to create an establishment that is solely independent.

The freedom from political pressures and marketing pressures

and from pressure

that comes from certain parts of society

is more important than the independence.

The editorial independence

and operational independence,

which has been offered by everybody so far, is very important.

So you are not overly concerned about the way forward with the BBC?

That doesn't worry me at all.

I don't think it matters where the money comes from.

It's the terms that come along with the money, that's the problem.

I do think, in this case, that the system with financing it

through the license fee,

will help towards the devolution of broadcasting in Wales.

It takes the money away from the politicians.

Yes.

It shouldn't be a problem for any party to have a relationship

with regards to the financing of S4C.

Paul Davies,

if we look at the relationship between the BBC and S4C.

As someone who works for the BBC and programmes on S4C,

there has been a childish element,

when there should have been co-operation.

That isn't a reason for doing this.

But we could get rid of that, at least.

What's important is co-operation,

that S4C and the BBC work in partnership with each other.

I think independence for S4C is important.

For a long time,

I've been calling for S4C's independence to be safeguarded.

I've been calling to make sure there is a sustainable

financial system in place in future.

S4C is very important to us in Wales.

That leads us on to when we form a national language strategy

for Wales, the part S4C plays in that is key.

Its partnerships with the Assembly Government

and other broadcasters have not been able to create that.

It's important to make sure that the framework is in place

and that the partnership can go forward into the future.

That's what's important, I think.

I've been calling for devolution with regards to S4C broadcasting.

That makes sense, in my opinion.

To respond to an earlier point,

if money comes through the license fee in the future,

will that make devolution more attractive?

I think we'd have to look at the details.

But the money wouldn't have to come from here.

I think the principal is right that we do look to devolve

responsibilities for S4C to the Assembly. That makes sense.

I think my fellow members agree with that.

Helen Mary Jones, when do you see it happening?

We want to see that. It would also be easier through the license fee.

When we talk about partnership,

it's my experience that it's difficult to have a partnership

when you have one strong side which holds the purse strings

and the other side is weaker

and has to depend on the other partner for funding.

-It's a recipe for disaster.

-That doesn't mean it's impossible.

It's not impossible but I do disagree a little because I think

the channel needs some kind of structure of independence.

I agree with the point about the freedom.

Especially editorial freedom, that's the most important thing.

How to you create the structures to ensure that happens?

My biggest disappointment

is that the Welsh Government hasn't done anything since the election.

What Paul said pleased me.

There was a lot of work before the election

and there was an all-party agreement, but since the election,

we have not seen the Government working hard on this at all.

Carwyn Jones has said this week

that S4C's oporational and editorial independence is crucial

and yet there is talk about pooling resources and maybe even buildings.

Do you fear that it's a slippery slope?

I think we're concentrating too much on S4C.

I think we have to look at it as a whole.

Over the next few years, the media will change so much.

The Assembly has made steps forward with rolling out

broadband throughout Wales.

The preparations there are a step forward.

I hope it's realised.

The way programmes are delivered is going to change so much.

I think the Assembly has to be aware about the importance

to the economy and the culture

that media in Wales is properly financed and is properly managed.

On the subject of that economic role,

not far behind us we have the BBC's huge new drama studio.

Apart from Pobol y Cwm, most of the dramas are not Welsh.

But they do have economic value.

They keep the technical skills, for British drama for example, in Wales.

They can be used to strengthen Welsh drama.

I'm worried about the possible impact on the independent sector.

In Llanelli we have an independent company,

Tinopolis is waiting for an announcement from S4C tomorrow.

It could either protect or axe about 100 jobs.

We've been discussing the importance of the BBC treating S4C fairly,

but S4C should treat the independent sector fairly.

Whatever the structure,

there should be programmes from the independent sector.

This is another important sector.

We have to leave it there. Thank you all three of you.

That's it for tonight.

There will not be a programme next week because the politicians

are having a week off for half term, but we'll be back in a fortnight.

Don't forget to join us then.

Thanks for your company and goodnight.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd