Wed, 7 Dec 2011 at 22.20pm CF99

Hello and welcome. Tonight, how good is your local school?

From tomorrow, secondary schools are to be graded, but is that fair?

In our final programme of the year,

we take a look back at an eventful political year.

We are joined by Rhys Williams of Labour,

Nerys Evans of Plaid Cymru,

and Harri Lloyd Davies of the Conservatives. Welcome to you all.

Here's a question, do you think the ability to compare

your child's school with others will improve the education available?

That is what the Welsh Government is hoping.

Tomorrow, all high schools in Wales will be separated into five bands.

For the schools at the bottom, extra help will be made available.

Well this improve standards or simply cause embarrassment?

Here's Arwyn Jones.

There have been substantial changes to Welsh education over the years.

There are also big differences between England and Wales,

of course, especially in the way we compare schools.

In England they have league tables,

where they can compare schools on the basis of their exam results.

The Welsh Government decided not to adopt a similar system,

and that schools did not need to be compared.

That is all about to change.

The Government is about to place all high schools in Wales in bands

ranging between one and five.

It will be based on exam results,

but also the number of children receiving free school meals

and the levels of attendance.

We think banding will lead to schools being branded.

From tomorrow onwards, when we have these five bands,

I think the schools in the highest bands will be celebrating.

That is probably a good thing.

Unfortunately there will also be schools in the lower bands.

The purpose of banding is not to encourage competition,

the purpose is to raise standards.

To raise standards and to provide a fair comparison.

We want to compare schools that are truly similar,

that's not how things stand at the moment.

Hand in hand with banding

is the hope is that more resources and support

will be made available through four consortiums.

The structure to provide the support will not be available

until next year, nine months after the bands are announced.

Tomorrow the schools will hear

which band they have been placed in under the new system.

What is less obvious is what financial support

will be made available to them following the banding.

I think it will undermine schools to a large degree.

There is no point banding schools,

saying, "This is band one, this is band two,"

unless you do something useful with that information.

That's especially if you feel, as we do,

that it is not a full illustration in the first place.

The Welsh Government told us

that even though the consortiums won't begin until September 2012,

each region has plans in place to offer support

once the bands have been announced.

Over the decades, the goal to offer a better education hasn't changed,

but for the first time in years,

there is disagreement over how that should be achieved.

Rhys Williams, you're a Labour man

and also a former NUT officer,

do you think this is a step backwards?

No, I do share the concerns of Geraint Davies and Anna Brychan

but on the other hand, Leighton Andrews has emphasised

that his goal is not to name and shame schools.

The big task facing education is how to share best practice.

We know that there are schools achieving great things,

but that is too often confined to the classroom.

When you see teachers go to events to listen to experts orate,

they'll often say that there wasn't much content to the speeches

and that the best information was gleaned during lunches

as they shared information with teachers from other schools.

But these bands will be made public and if you are a parent

in an area with a local school in band five

and another in band three,

you are going to try to send your child to the school in band three.

It will be very difficult for the school in band five.

They won't be able to attract the best pupils.

I think you are seeing it from that point of view to start with.

I would hope that they will look at how to raise the standard

of the school from band three to band five.

If poverty is part of the problem,

how can one school overcome that and the another school can't?

We must share best practice,

which already exists, between schools,

That is something we need to do

and that is something we have failed to do over the generations.

Do you think this will be different to league tables

that were available in the past?

This data that has been collected is quite different.

Will that mean that it can avoid stigmatisation?

It will still lead to comparisons, of course.

That's an inevitable consequence of releasing such data.

Plaid Cymru said before the election this year,

that we needed to share more data and information with parents.

We want parents to feel more of a sense of a duty

so that head teachers can feel as though

they can share information with parents and prospective parents.

What's the point of doing this unless extra resources

will go into the schools at the bottom of the pile?

The danger is that there is no additional money

to be directed towards these schools in band four or five.

If they get these resources,

those resources are dependent on the number of pupils.

But if they lose pupils

because they have a bad reputation as a result of this banding,

it makes no difference.

The money will be directed towards other schools.

We need to put this in a wider strategy and framework.

We need a mechanism in place to share best practice.

According to Estyn's report,

there is no incentive for schools to share expertise.

They want to show off the fact they are excelling.

We need a structure within our local authorities

so there's an incentive for this information to be shared

and education standards are improved.

Maybe these regional consortia will help share information.

At the end of the day, improving educational standards

should be the aim of these policies.

The Education Minister himself wants to raise standards.

He has made this clear. Is this the way to do it?

Bearing in mind where Wales stands in the Pisa report and so on,

where international comparisons are made.

I think this is the problem at the root of education in Wales.

We need to understand what we can do to turn this around.

After deciding to scrap league tables 10 years ago,

Wales has not compared favourably to other European countries.

League tables aren't the only reason for that,

but it's an important step in the right direction.

Scrapping them was a bad move and this is a step towards that.

I know they say it's nothing to do with it,

but banding is the same kind of thing.

The problem is that nobody quite understands how banding works.

I was going to say, if you are a parent,

you can understand what proportion of pupils get what GCSE grades,

but this is quite a complex formula.

And that's the problem with banding.

We should just make the data available to parents

and let them decide what's important.

But the Government is trying to be fair, that is what it would argue.

It's trying to consider other factors, Nerys,

including the number of students receiving free meals and so on.

One head teacher has said that he could go up a band

by attracting more pupils who receive free school meals.

That's nothing to do with the education.

But if he gets more in, he'll go up a band.

A lot of this data is already publicly available.

Anyone can gather it together.

The context of free school meals

will be the additional piece of information

that will be announced tomorrow.

But we need to examine the purpose of this.

If resources are already scarce,

we need to make sure best practice is shared

and resources are targeted towards where they are most needed.

Teachers' expertise is most important.

Take literacy, is that a mechanical process,

or is it about a teacher encouraging a child to enjoy reading?

Enjoyment is the key to reading.

I think we also need to look at head teachers' accountability,

to make sure teachers and leaders within the school

feel responsible for raising standards

and to include them so they feel accountable.

Leighton Andrews won the Politician of the Year award yesterday.

There are reforms of universities and schools

going on left, right and centre.

Do you think this department is in danger of making mistakes?

Perhaps they are rushing into things

because he's a politician who is eager to make a difference?

It was interesting that Leighton won it, to be honest.

He is trying to do a lot of things at the same time.

Some would say he's the only politician trying to do anything.

The problem is that it might be another five years

before we know how it will end up.

It might be that he is trying to do everything at the same time

and it might work out better if he took it one project at a time

to make sure it's a success.

He's trying to reform every part of the education sector.

That is the problem, maybe he doesn't see each bit through.

Thanks. Now there's a chance to look back at the political year.

In March, Wales voted in favour of extending the Assembly's powers.

By May, Labour were back in charge,

but financial insecurity has dominated the agenda.

Here are two experts to share their thoughts on the political year.

Without a doubt, the referendum result

is the big political story of 2011.

The constitutional changes in question

were not enough in themselves to deserve a referendum,

but the fact it was unnecessary

doesn't mean that the result was not important, it was important.

There have been great changes since the referendum

and there are more still to come

in terms of taxation and legislative powers.

These are things that people said wouldn't happen

before the referendum was held but are now happening.

The election was a phenomenal success

for the Welsh Labour Party, to be honest.

It was also successful for the Conservatives.

It was a certainly a disappointing election for Plaid Cymru

after the end of their first term in office.

The Liberal Democrats miraculously escaped unscathed from the election.

With yourselves, we want to make sure that we deliver for Wales.

The events of 2012

strengthened Carwyn Jones' position to a large degree.

He took the reins in the referendum campaign

and I think he struck a chord with many interested parties in Wales.

It resounded throughout the population.

He also fronted a very successful election campaign in May.

The most important thing for me by a long way

has been the events in Europe concerning the euro

and the European economy, as well as the economy here and in America.

These events will change the world as we've known it since WWII.

I think the challenges facing Plaid Cymru are significant.

There is a cross-party wave of support for the referendum

and constitutional changes which means Welsh politics have changed.

This context leads us to question the role of Plaid Cymru.

I think perhaps Plaid Cymru has moved too far to the left.

I know many people who are Tory

but have been voting Plaid Cymru for many years.

They're not happy that Plaid Cymru has become so left-wing.

It's difficult for Plaid Cymru to please everyone,

to gather supporters ranging from the political left and right.

It is difficult.

Harry Lloyd Davies, let's start with the economy.

After such a troubled year, as European leaders meet in Brussels,

do you think we are at a turning point?

I'd like to say so but I think next year will be very difficult as well.

Everything we're looking at will become very difficult.

We do not know how long this will take.

By the end of next year I think we will start to see things

return to the way they were and a successful future.

It's hard at the moment and it will be hard for another year.

Looking back at the efforts to save the euro,

how would you describe Merkozy's efforts?

Well, it has to work.

Nobody in the eurozone wants to see it fail.

I think they'll come up with a deal.

I don't know why it has taken so much time.

It's unfortunate but I don't think we have seen enough leadership

shown from any political figure in Europe, not just the Merkozys.

It is going to be very important.

Once we sort the euro out, we can start looking to the future.

That's the biggest problem facing us at the moment.

Looking at the state of the economy, it's 18 months since the election.

Aren't you surprised that, looking at the polls,

you can see you are only two or three percentage points ahead,

when you look back at Thatcher's days,

Neil Kinnock was in front of the Conservatives by as much as 20%,

and he still lost the election.

He didn't win in the end.

You're not doing as well as you should be.

Something strange has happened to the country,

it has become a bit of a macho competition

over who can make the deepest cuts the soonest.

And the Tories at the moment are making the most of it.

George Osborne is like some character out of Dickens.

He is trying to make our skin crawl.

The truth is that we need to plan for the future

and we need to look to economic growth.

I think the Tories have cut too deep too soon.

You are on message, as they say.

In truth, isn't it right that you've got the wrong leader,

and that's the reason you have not gained ground?

I do not think so.

Speaking of leadership, I saw it said on the television,

and I though that the unspoken truth is that the SNP have Alex Salmond

and that is what Plaid Cymru lacks.

He has made a big impact.

We will come to leadership in a moment, Nerys,

but looking back on the referendum,

which was a great success for you, what went wrong in the election?

If you look back on the year, the referendum was the big push for us.

That's what party members supported when we went into Government.

It was a poor election for us and it was an interesting time for me

in Carmarthenshire West,

but I think we didn't focus on what we achieved in government.

Our tactics just didn't strike a chord with people.

Perhaps you need to redefine

the purpose of Plaid Cymru after the referendum.

Certainly, but there was not much time between the referendum

and the Assembly elections.

It was new ground for us for us, being in power.

All Welsh counties apart from one voted in favour of further powers.

This is new political ground and we need to respond to that.

That's why we are conducting an internal review

which will report back before the end of the year

and we need to move on and respond to it.

Harri, you campaigned in favour of further Assembly powers.

In a way it made no difference

because now we've got this silk commission, as some call it.

Rhys mentioned Alex Salmond and the developments in Scotland.

Someone here told me very openly,

"Before long we might need to talk about

"what this country will be called and what its flag will be."

The future of the kingdom is under discussion.

The constitutional question hasn't disappeared.

No, and I don't think it will ever disappear.

There is always another step you can take towards independence.

Many people, including myself, have had enough

and would like to see the Assembly simply make use of its new powers

and start to improve the situation in Wales.

The talk about independence will never go away

and we need to keep discussing it

until we have tax-raising powers and so on.

I think we'll get it one day,

but until then, it will still be a talking point.

It's an important subject as you look for a new leader,

what we be looking for?

Someone like Elin Jones, who trumpets the cause of independence,

or will it be a campaign about bread and butter issues,

such as education, health and the economy?

What about redefining the party?

We need both. I think we need to look at delivering on policy

in terms of now, delivering on the economy,

as we have seen from Ieuan's leadership over recent months,

but we also need to find that vision.

Elin Jones has shown what our vision is.

You support Elin Jones?

Yes, and I am hoping that she will win. She has a clear vision.

One thing our members have told us is they are keen to see our vision.

We are not controlling Wales every day

but are thinking of the long-term and how we respond to Scotland

and co-operate with the SNP as we've done so in the last few months.

-Elin Jones does that.

-Is she the Welsh Alex Salmond?

The two countries are different.

The parties are different and their needs are different.

Elin has a vision to take us to the next step.

Nerys used the word vision.

Labour had a successful election by protecting Wales.

But has this government got a vision for this country

apart from protecting us from the Tories and the horrid Liberals?

Yes because I think that Labour is the party for the whole of Wales.

It was interesting listening to Rod Richards.

He was talking about Plaid Cymru

and suggesting that they were everything for everyone.

That's the challenge.

Labour has said that Plaid Cymru is everything for everyone.

In North Wales, they are Tories and in the south, they are socialists.

The question was about Labour's vision not Plaid Cymru.

Yes, but we want equality in Wales.

We want to raise the standard of living, the standard of education

and raise the standard of health.

-Which hasn't worked for the past ten years!

-You have had a new leader.

We are looking forward to RT Davies. Has he created an impression?

It's very early.

I don't think he's had a chance to make an impression

but it will happen in the next year.

He has had an affect.

After the election, it takes two or three months to decide.

I don't think the Assembly has had a lot of attention

in the past six months.

This means that Andrew hasn't had much time.

He has been around Wales for a long time.

He has been listening to people.

How has the party changed since the days of Nick Bourne?

I don't think it has changed.

Andrew is listening to what we want out of the party.

It's nice to know he doesn't run off

and start ruling in a different way.

He wants to know what we want and I'm glad of that.

Rhys and Nerys, are you scared of Andrew RT

or are you thinking, great!

It's a completely different direction to Nick Bourne.

He tried to make the party more Welsh and fair play to him.

He made a good job.

Andrew RT is British

and I can see the Britishness is coming out in the chamber.

I agree with you there. Andrew is traditional. He's entertaining.

We had a very good election but we still didn't get a majority.

We have to find something in the future where we can have a majority.

Andrew RT Davies sold a turkey to a Labour cabinet member.

That will come out soon! Thank you very much.

That's it for another week and another year.

We will be back mid January with all the gossip in the political world.

Until then, a Happy New Year and a Happy Christmas to you.

-Goodbye.

-Goodbye.