09/01/2013 CF99


09/01/2013

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Hello and welcome to CF99.

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Coming up tonight: Still no agreement between Radio Cymru

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and the musicians - we'll hear from the director of BBC Wales.

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This is a complicated situation. It'll take some time to resolve.

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We've heard from Cameron and Clegg.

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Tonight, the view from the backbenches of the coalition.

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Has the coalition been a success? What are the tensions?

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Will it last for another two and a half years?

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Joining us tonight are the Labour MP for Swansea East, Sian James,

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the Plaid Cymru Assembly Member for Arfon, Alun Ffred Jones,

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and the political commentator and former minister Rod Richards.

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We'll discuss the dispute between the BBC and Welsh musicians in a moment.

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But first to Westminster, where the coalition has arrived

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at the midway point of the parliamentary term.

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We asked the Conservative MP Guto Bebb

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to give his views on the government.

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In Wales, we're familiar with coalitions, but it's new in London.

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There are a number of questions to answer.

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Has the coalition been a success? What are those successes?

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What have the tensions been between the two parties

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and is the coalition going to last for another two and a half years?

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The priority was to stabilise the economy

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and to make sure the Westminster Government could pay its way.

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In that sense, the last two years has been a success.

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But there have been failings,

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in any coalition there will be difficulties.

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But what people want is stability in the economy.

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Things like the Lords are small issues

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in comparison to the success of the economy.

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The challenge over the next few months will throw up

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two difficult situations.

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We need to avoid another recession

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because a triple dip would be a major disaster.

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We hope the figures show that there's still growth in the economy.

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The second issue is Europe. That is a very important issue.

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It could create problems. Particularly within the Tory party.

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Since the coalition was formed, people have questioned

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whether it would survive the political time.

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There have been difficult times,

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not least to the vote on the House of Lords.

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But I don't think anything has damaged the coalition.

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I see it lasting until 2015.

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What about the future?

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We said if we deal with the debt, the electorate would thank us.

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The opinion polls don't reflect that at the moment.

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But the Tory vote it seems to be just 4% lower than in 2010.

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That is not a terrible situation,

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considering the big decisions we have been forced to make.

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We want to continue to grow the economy

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and help improve the situation in the country.

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Rod Richards, are you surprised that the coalition

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has survived relatively comfortably so far?

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We saw the two leaders coming together a few days ago.

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Before Christmas it looked as though the coalition

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was starting to disintegrate.

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Nick Clegg was giving his own opinion and some Tory members

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were also giving their own opinion which were not necessarily

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in line with the coalition front.

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That has created some political uncertainty

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and economic uncertainty.

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They came together a few days ago to say they are still as one.

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They are determined to stand together for another two years.

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But they don't really have a choice.

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An election now would be a disaster for both parties?

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They wanted to show that political uncertainty

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will not affect the economy.

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Only one thing will win the next General Election

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for the Conservatives and possibly the coalition

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and that is the economy.

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If they can't deliver just hope in terms of the economy,

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they are in trouble.

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Sian James, it seems to me that Ed Miliband

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has proved to be a lucky leader in a way.

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Can he take advantage of the fact the coalition is not so popular?

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No, Labour has got to prove it has earned the right to be in power.

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What worries me most is that while we have this love-in

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between the two coalition parties,

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we are not concentrating on the bigger problems such as the economy.

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Things have not worked out as they had promised.

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They said that by now things would have improved.

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As we heard in the report, there could be a triple dip recession.

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A lot of people in my constituency, in Cardiff

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and across Wales are worried about the economy.

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But just saying their recipe is not working is not going to be enough.

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You have to come up with a solution yourself.

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We have got to focus on it, because people are suffering.

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We know that families in the current climate,

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when we look at benefits and so on,

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there are people facing difficult times.

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A headteacher in my constituency

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was told this week that she will lose her child benefit.

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She will lose it and she will have to pay for childcare.

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she has lost it all.

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There's another house where two people are living in it

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and they're earning £90,000. And they have lost nothing.

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That is what's worrying people. How all this is affecting them.

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The Labour Party charge-sheet is easy to put forward at the moment,

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it is the fact the coalition is not popular going to be enough?

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That is unlikely.

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It is strange in one sense that the Tories

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are still as popular as they are. Although they are unpopular,

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they are not as unpopular as you would expect in this situation.

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But if the Liberal Democrats are losing votes to Labour,

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Labour can benefit?

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When we approach the election,

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the leaders will face far more difficult questions.

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I think context is important.

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No matter who was in government,

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there were going to be significant cuts to public spending.

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The fact is that Tories

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said they would be out of this deficit by 2015.

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They haven't achieved that, and that undermines their promises.

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The big message was we are all in this together.

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In order for that message to be delivered,

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people must feel that the government's policies are fair.

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That is the message Cameron and Clegg

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have failed to deliver.

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The example of child benefit is an obvious one.

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Every policy is going to be unfair on some one.

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The objective is to make sure that you can help

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as many people as possible.

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Sometimes people for just on one side or the other,

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but they have got to be cuts.

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But they don't seem fair.

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You can mention the tax many large businesses have not been paying.

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The government is tackling this in the G8 summit.

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All these issues are very important.

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Everybody has got to shoulder some of the burden.

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-Alun Ffred, we have to move forward.

-We talk about this fairness,

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and there is no doubt that there is a lot of animosity

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towards the bankers and the whole economic industry.

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As well as a lot of people have made a lot of money

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and they don't seem to be paying their share.

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I include the large businesses who have been avoiding tax in that.

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The important issue is trust. Do people have faith in the coalition?

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I don't think that they do.

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All the opinion polls say people do not have faith in the coalition.

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That was the big message from the coalition.

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The Labour government left us in a complete mess.

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Thank you. We have to move on.

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Radio Cymru is still unable to play thousands of Welsh songs

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as the dispute between Radio Cymru and Welsh musicians continues.

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It has affected the station's schedule and broadcasting hours.

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But what are the wider implications? Tomos Livingstone reports.

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It is a familiar tune, but since New Year's Eve,

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the language has been different.

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There have been fewer pop songs and more hymns and English songs.

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But where is the Welsh language pop music?

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Radio Cymru is unable to play thousands of songs

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because musicians are calling for better pay and royalties.

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We have received support from the public and many other agencies.

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They include poets, the Archdriud and a number of organisations.

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They can see that the situation is unfair.

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We have only have that support since withdrawing all this music.

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It also shows that the music is very valuable

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than what PRS and the BBC thought it was.

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Until last year, the musicians were members of PRS,

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who represented them with the broadcasters.

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But more than 300 of them moved to a new body called EOS.

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BBC Wales says EOS rejected a offer before Christmas

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just days before the old contract came to an end.

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The fact Radio Cymru still hasn't reached an agreement is a problem.

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EOS has received support from many prominent figures.

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The row has turned very political.

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If this had happened in London,

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this would have been a nationwide story by now.

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The fact that one of our national services is second rate

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and can't supply the sort of service we would like to hear,

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which would attract young people, I think it is an embarrassment.

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The Government needs to do something.

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For every day this dispute goes on, they lose listeners.

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Radio Cymru, which has such a small audience, can't afford to do that.

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EOS has put a new offer before BBC Wales,

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giving the corporation until tomorrow to respond.

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But the BBC says further talks are needed.

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Will they reach an agreement?

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It is hard to believe some sort of deal will not be struck eventually.

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But money makes the world go round.

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Earlier I spoke to the director of BBC Wales, Rhodri Talfan Davies,

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and asked him why reaching a settlement has been so difficult?

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This is public money, so it is vital that we reach a settlement

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which is fair and sustainable.

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-Is there an agreement on the horizon?

-I hope so.

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We held talks earlier this week and continued to do so

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towards the end of the week,

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but this is a difficult and complicated situation.

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I think it will take time to resolve.

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-Are we talking weeks or months?

-I don't know.

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There are two sides, and I don't want to put a timetable on it.

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BBC Wales is eager to reach a settlement as soon as possible.

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There is also a third party, which is Radio Cymru listeners.

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People are working very hard to maintain the service,

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but it is not the same service as it was.

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I would like to pay tribute to the team at Radio Cymru.

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They have been working hard to maintain this service.

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It is not the ideal service at the moment.

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But there are many parties that need to be represented.

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As a public body, and during such a difficult financial time,

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it is important that we reach a sustainable settlement.

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That is at the heart of our discussions.

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What is a fair price for these royalties?

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You say these are difficult financial times,

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but S4C has managed to reach an agreement in the past.

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S4C is an independent body, as you well know.

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I don't know what was agreed was between S4C and Eos.

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What's in front of us is a number of offers from Eos.

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We have also made a number of offers to Eos

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which could increase the price of the royalties.

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This would acknowledge their cultural value.

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I think we have moved forward over the last few months

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and I hope we can reach agreement in the near future.

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Some people say you could reach an agreement,

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but that people in London are afraid that it might set a precedent.

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I know it appeals to many to see this as a battle

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between Wales and London.

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I lead the discussion on behalf of the BBC.

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I work very closely with my staff at BBC Wales,

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and I have got to make a decision.

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-Is it your decision?

-Of course.

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There are many people involved in the discussions

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but I will be accountable to the taxpayers in Wales

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for the level of royalty that is set.

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I have to be certain that the level is fair and sustainable.

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But the situation in Wales is different.

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There are hundreds of radio stations which play English-language music.

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You can earn a lot of money,

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but this is the only market for these musicians.

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I agree, there is a commercial value

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but there is also a cultural value to these royalties.

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There is a unique situation here in Wales. We

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have previously acknowledged that

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and have offered what we believe is a fair price.

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It was a lot more than has been paid in the past.

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But this dispute goes back to 2006.

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That was when the money paid to musicians changed,

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because it encompassed music played in public and so on.

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This is what at the root of this dispute.

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I understand why musicians want more for their money

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because that would fill that gap.

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My responsibility is to provide a fair price.

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Alun Ffred Jones, what do you make of this?

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It is very damaging for Radio Cymru and the BBC.

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Although he said he is in charge of the discussions,

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there is no doubt that London has an influence.

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What makes you say that?

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They are afraid to make an agreement outside PRS.

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The want to use just one body.

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The word used was fairness.

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These musicians are paid something like 50p per minute

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on Radio Cymru, the national network they get around £6 a minute.

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Would members of staff at BBC Wales

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except 12 times less than other staff members in the BBC?

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Yes, but there are a lot more people listening to that radio station.

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If we take that to the extreme, we should all be paid a lot less.

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We are being paid a lot less than what we should

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but that is not happening.

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That doesn't happen because there is such a thing as a fair price.

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And that is what they are calling for.

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This is a very important source of income for many of them.

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I think we have to find a fair price.

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We have to decide whether Radio Cymru

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and Radio Wales are our national stations

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or is it just a regional broadcaster?

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What worries me is that it suggests the BBC in London

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doesn't appreciate what a Welsh-language service

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means in Wales.

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This doesn't bode well for S4C either.

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Sian James, what do you make of this?

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Do the musicians have a point?

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Would you protest with them?

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We have to be fair. Many of them are trying to make a living

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and they need to earn money from us.

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They have to have a fair price for their work.

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What worries me most is that we are drawing attention

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to the differences between us in Wales and England, or London.

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I am worried what will happen as a result of this.

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If we lose ground here, what else could we lose out on in future?

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Rod Richards, you are a cynical on many issues,

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are you cynical about this?

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If this music was more popular, more people would buy it

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and they wouldn't have to rely on Radio Cymru?

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I wouldn't say that.

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This is a classic dispute between producers and customers.

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The value of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it.

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As it happens, this is a unique situation for the BBC.

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We can measure the value of this music because they can see how

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many listeners they have while they are not playing the music

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compared to what they had while they were able to play those songs.

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Otherwise it is like asking how long is a piece of string?

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But the danger is, Rod,

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once you lose an audience it can be difficult to get them back.

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If you look at the figures of S4C audiences,

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and what has happened with the Heno programme,

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that programme has found it hard to get that audience back.

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I don't agree with that.

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It is always possible to attract an audience back

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if you have something worthwhile for them to listen to.

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The truth is, I don't listen to Radio Cymru very often any more,

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I don't know what sort of effect it has on the Welsh language any more.

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When I was a young man, I used to listen to Galw Gari Tryfan.

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If that came back, maybe I would listen to Radio Cymru again!

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I don't think that included music!

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I think this is an issue about people's interests.

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Are we broadcasting what people want to hear?

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I have been asking people over the last few days to name a Welsh band.

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And to name the last Welsh record they bought.

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The last thing my son bought was a song by Carlota 10 years ago.

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The last record I bought was Sgrech by Crys in 2006.

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That says more about you than it does about Sain though!

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-But I don't even know what's available now.

-Our time is up.

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Ffred, that's all for tonight, we'll be back the same time next week.

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For the time, thanks for watching. Good night.

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