18/04/2012 CF99


18/04/2012

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Good evening and welcome to CF99, for half an hour of live debate.

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Tonight, who will be getting your vote at the local elections and why?

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Will local matters of national matters help you decide?

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And a chance to take a look at one of our local authorities' biggest bills, education.

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And you can get involved on Twitter.

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We're joined tonight by Baroness Morgan of Ely, Eluned Morgan to you and me, from Labour.

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And Councillor John Davies, leader of Pembrokeshire Council and the WLGA.

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In our Bangor newsroom, we have Plaid Cymru AM Alun Ffred Jones,

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who leads the party's local election campaign. Welcome.

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Politicians from the other parties will be here to give their opinions next week.

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The main parties have launched their campaigns and the candidates

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are already pounding the streets and knocking on those doors.

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Yes, there's another election, but what will influence your vote as you choose your local councillors?

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The state of the streets, or the parties in Cardiff Bay and Westminster?

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James Williams is looking for answers, beginning in Caernarfon.

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Four years on from the last local elections,

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the fate of the main parties relies on public opinion, as ever.

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Apart from the people of Anglesey, the rest of Wales will be voting

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for their councillors in just over a fortnight.

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These people are responsible for a number of local decisions that affect our lives.

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They set council tax, decide when the bins are collected

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and they also run the education, transport and social care systems.

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But are people aware of that?

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To an extent, yes. But I hardly ever see anyone knocking on my door.

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And when they do, you never see them again.

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So I don't know who I'm going to vote for.

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What's important to you when you vote in the local elections?

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A good man. A man in which you can depend.

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-More than the policies?

-Yes.

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Local people go to the councillors,

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the councillors go to the council, they do something and so on.

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According to the American saying, the heart of politics is local.

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We saw an example of that in this area in the 2008 local elections

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when Gwynedd Council's schools reorganisation policy

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influenced the result.

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But it's obvious that what happens outside the council meetings

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also plays a role in the local elections.

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In Aberystwyth, there is another matter influencing things.

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Proposed changes to Ysbyty Brongalis are a concern for local people.

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More than 500 campaigners took their protest to the Senedd over a month ago.

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I think we have more of an idea right across Wales,

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but also in areas like Ceredigion, that the decisions in Wales

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are made at the Assembly.

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So I hope that we as a nation can see that the power

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is in Cardiff Bay.

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But for some, this election will be a vote on the economy and living standards.

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National politics has an influence on local elections.

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So what we expect to see the parties

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that are popular on a British level to do well.

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If they're doing well in the opinion polls,

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they should do well in the local elections.

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On the other hand, when they're unpopular we expect them

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to have a hard time.

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Following the local elections in 2008, David Cameron visited Barry

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to celebrate the Conservatives' success in taking the Vale of Glamorgan.

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For many, it was a referendum on Gordon Brown and the Labour Party.

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But four years on, David Cameron is prime minister of a coalition government and the Conservatives

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and the Liberal Democrats are behind in the opinion polls. Will the results reflect that?

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I'm more than happy with the Westminster Government's record.

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The message may have been complicated recently.

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That's why I think it's important that people vote locally

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for what is important to them locally.

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We have a good record, we have a good story and I hope people will reflect on that when voting.

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Across the country, from Caernarfon to Barry,

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there are different patterns to politics.

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But we will have to wait until the start of May to test the waters.

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As James began in the north, we might as well start there too.

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Alun Ffred Jones, local elections but I'm sure this will also be some sort of a referendum

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on the popularity of the Westminster Government and possibly Cardiff Bay.

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Yes, it's a mixture.

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The influence of what is happening in London and maybe the unpopularity

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of the Tories and the Lib Dems to an extent will affect the urban areas

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where everyone usually stands for a particular party.

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In rural areas, in villages, personality becomes more important.

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But local circumstances of a local decision

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regarding a planning application or a row can also influence matters.

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So you often see a mixture of things.

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But one thing I would say is it would be a pity if this became

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a referendum on the Westminster Government's performance.

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After all, you're voting for people to run local services.

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That's what we have tried to emphasise,

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the importance of electing people you can rely upon.

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It's a difficult situation,

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regardless of who is in charge in London.

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There is no money available. There will be less money available.

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Everyone will be facing difficult decisions.

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You need responsible people in charge.

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Eluned Morgan, is it right that we have Carwyn Jones

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and Peter Hain calling for voters to send a message to Cameron and Clegg?

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"It's your chance to voice your opinion on the Budget." These are supposed to be local elections.

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Yes, but remember in 2008, we paid a high price for the fact that people were voting on Gordon Brown.

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We paid a high price for that.

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I think what you must remember is whatever happens,

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it will be dissected on a national level.

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And if that goes in favour of the Tories

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and the Lib Dems, I think they will be very pleased.

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But this could be a lucky election for you as a party.

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You had a disappointing result last time, losing 5% of the vote.

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To an extent, you're bound to do better this time.

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And also what has happened since the Budget.

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The wind is blowing against the coalition at Westminster.

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Well, we hope so. I think they have made mistakes.

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-People are furious about the cuts.

-But it will be a negative vote against them,

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rather than a positive one in favour of your ideas.

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Of course, what we want is for people to look at what

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is happening locally, that's what we've tried to do.

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There is no national campaign this time.

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What we have is every local authority acting on what is important locally.

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It will be difficult for us to say - this is the Welsh campaign.

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It's not happening that way this time.

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Back in 2008, for the first time in years,

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more independent councillors were elected than from any of the parties.

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Does it sadden you to hear the parties trying to make this a referendum?

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This is difficult for you, standing independently.

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I don't think it's difficult. It strengthens our hand.

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When you see the 2008 result,

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more independent councillors than any party, but it is a referendum on local services,

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local provision and local politicians.

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Local government...

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It's St David politics - do the small things.

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We all know as politicians on different levels,

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it's the small things that matter to people.

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-All politics is local.

-But are you entirely independent?

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We've heard about these covert Conservatives and Lib Dems.

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Is there any such thing as an entirely independent councillor these days?

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People are standing independently.

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They're standing on what they believe. Alun was right.

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It's down to those individuals. People have to buy into that.

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Otherwise you wouldn't have had an independent majority.

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I know we are a thorn in the side of the political parties because we take votes.

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But the fact is people are important, not party politics.

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These independent candidates are elected

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and then they form a party or a group within the council.

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They are often whipped.

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So they behave like a party but with no manifesto.

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I accept there is a place for independents in local government,

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but in reality you are not independent once you are governing.

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That's an old line, as far as the whip.

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It comes out during every election.

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There is no whip. You can't whip true independents.

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But we are seeing, I won't go after Anglesey because there are no elections there,

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but people stand as independents and then after that...

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In Powys you have the Pigs and the Nigs, as they're called.

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You have an independent group and then independent independent and so on.

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Shouldn't there be some sort of manifesto or some kind

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of indication from the independent candidate as to what he or she intends?

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There should be a manifesto when there is an independent group

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putting itself forward as an independent party.

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The fact is you have a collection of individuals

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and they are there to do what they believe is right,

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without being influenced by political parties or party whips.

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If that is not acceptable then the majority will be reduced on May 4th.

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That is the situation. People are sick of party politics.

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Eluned, what's the behind this idea of not having a national Labour manifesto?

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Is it laziness? A lack of a message? Or is it devolution?

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I think it is devolution, but also an acknowledgement that what

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happens locally is something on which local people should decide.

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That is something very different to what we have seen in the past.

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Coming back to this point,

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with independent people there is a lack of accountability.

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When you decide on school closures or this and that,

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there is no way for people to come back to the group. They can only return to the individual.

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And the other thing is I think there is a danger the people who really have the power then is the officers

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who run the council because there is no wider vision within a group.

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If that is the case, why did the people of Wales, four years ago,

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choose more independent councillors than Labour councillors?

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And saying we are not accountable - there is accountability.

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There is nothing more accountable than the voting booth.

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Thank you. The gap between what is spent on pupils in England

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and Wales has had plenty of attention.

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But what about the differences between different councils in Wales?

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Government figures show that some local authorities are better

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than others in ensuring that money reaches the classroom.

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By why? Carl Roberts has been scratching his head.

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It's a common complaint that less money is spent on education in Wales, compared to England.

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It's around £600 per head per year, on average.

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But the differences between the different councils is also striking.

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On average, nearly £5,500 per head is spent every year.

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That figure corresponds to 76% being distributed directly to schools,

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with authorities retaining the remainder centrally.

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We want to ensure that the bureaucracy is reduced.

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Where it is possible, we must ensure that every penny is used.

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The Welsh Government wants to see high levels of spending

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reaching the frontline.

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It's 80% at the moment. They want to see that rising to 85%.

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If that happens without increasing the bureaucracy,

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that will improve the situation.

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But there is no certainty that spending more money on frontline

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services will close the spending gap between local authorities.

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According to the latest figures, Ceredigion Council

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spends the most on education, nearly £6,500 per child on average.

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In the Vale of Glamorgan, the council spends less than £5,000 per head on education.

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That's a difference of over £1,500.

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Spending more is not always positive.

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You have to consider the standard of the education, the standard

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of the building and the standard of support the child receives.

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That also affects the child's attitude,

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the parent's attitude towards the school and the teachers' attitudes.

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That will also be reflected in the school's performance.

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The Welsh Government is also keen to see more money reaching the classroom

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and says that local authorities have agreed to increase the percentage

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of money spent by the schools themselves over the coming years.

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John Davies, wearing your WLGA hat now,

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explain first of all why the money that comes from here

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to the local authorities doesn't go straight to the schools.

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We've heard around 76% on average. What about that other quarter?

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76%, there is an agreement to increase that to 85%,

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as mentioned in the report.

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But there is a lot more behind the headlines.

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You need to compare like with like.

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Special needs education requires a lot of spending.

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And that happens in different ways in different local authorities.

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Ceredigion, at the top of the tree as regards spending,

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but Ceredigion has more small schools per head than many other counties.

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Their spending is not necessarily going to the classroom,

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or the individual pupil, it's going to the location.

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In the Vale, there are good results.

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The education authority has a good reputation,

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but less money is being spent.

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1,300 on average is kept back in reserve.

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-Transport in Powys and Gwynedd...

-Is too much held back in reserve?

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Clearly, there's a commitment to increase the amount reaching the schools.

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There are good reasons for that. Transport is a part of that.

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In places like Powys, transport in rural areas is much higher

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than it is in somewhere like Merthyr.

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When you look at that factor, the bureaucracy, there's not much in it.

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It's very small.

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Is money the important thing here? John mentioned the Vale of Glamorgan.

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We know that some of these schools are getting the best results in Wales.

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Comparing like with like is important.

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You have to be very careful.

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If you have a lot of schools, a lot of money is spent on buildings

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and heating and wages, of course.

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Special needs education also, if you have to place a child outside the county as a result

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of special needs, that can cost £50,000 to £100,000 per head.

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Maybe more in some cases. That all affects the picture.

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What I think is important is to remember the bigger the school,

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the more money you can take directly to deal with situations.

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But if you're in a comparatively small school and you have a child

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with special needs, you can't look after that child within

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the amount received by the school, so the situation is complicated.

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You need to be careful when comparing different counties.

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As you found in Gwynedd four years ago, and as other councils

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have seen, sometimes it's very difficult to explain to parents

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- to get the best value for money, we have to make difficult decisions.

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To be fair, communities have strong ties to their schools.

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That is particularly strong in rural areas. And especially in Gwynedd.

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I think that a lesson was learned.

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Although the aims were fair.

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Other counties have closed schools with much less fuss, including Ceredigion.

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But it is not a matter of closing schools.

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It's seeing what's best and how you can make the most out of the money you have.

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This is a debate that is continuing and will continue.

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But with fewer children, especially in some rural areas,

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some parts of Wales, it is a fragile situation.

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Not just in primary schools, but in secondary schools.

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For parents watching who are concerned about their children's education,

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the curriculum is decided here. AMs make those decisions. But councillors are important.

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Yes, they are.

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As a parent, what is important is that your child has a good education.

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They're not comparing this county with that county.

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We have to compare performances with our friends in England.

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Our children will be competing with them in a few years' time.

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Unless we sort out the problems right across Wales,

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there will be problems.

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So we should be concentrating on raising standards.

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But that's the job of Leighton Andrews.

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But it's not possible to do this without cooperation.

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It's a fact that there has been an agreement between local government and the Assembly.

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People understand on the two levels that it is a problem

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and we must work together to raise standards.

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I don't want to discuss the Assembly too much,

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but Labour has been in power for 12 years.

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It's a bit late to start realising there's a problem.

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Well, there is a problem. We've seen there is a problem.

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Maybe we should have been acting sooner, but this is where we are.

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We've seen there is a target.

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We've increased the amount of money we spend on education.

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So I hope we will now see an improvement.

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I'm glad that Eluned acknowledges that there is a problem.

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It has been 12 years.

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What is needed now is to learn from that failure

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and let our teachers do the simple thing, to educate our children.

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With the best will in the world,

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we've tried to do too much within the curriculum.

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We need those basic elements to teach our children.

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Would that be the independent manifesto?

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The Pembrokeshire Council manifesto has always been very close, as regards education.

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Alun mentioned spending and school closures,

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Pembrokeshire Council has been leading the way.

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Eluned mentioned the importance of bringing the councils and the assembly together.

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-As regards independent members, that is not possible.

-Of course it is. It now happens regionally.

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Every council in Wales has signed an agreement with the education minister to raise standards.

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We all realise the importance of that.

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Alun Ffred, you have been a minister, a council leader,

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is the relationship close enough?

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No. And there is a lot of nonsense talked about links

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between ministers and local government.

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I'm sure John will say everything is fine.

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But the truth is it is not always good.

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We must avoid what has happened in England

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where we have seen the minister virtually attacking teachers and schools.

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I think we need to raise standards, that is true.

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All parents want the best for their children.

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It's important there's an understanding

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and we don't try to break teachers and schools by being over critical.

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But the performance is not consistent.

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-There are some weak areas.

-Sorry, on that note, we must leave it.

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Thank you. That's it for tonight.

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We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.

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We'll be joined by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems.

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-Until then, good night.

-Good night.

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