25/04/2012 CF99

Good evening and welcome to CF99 for half an hour of discussion.

Tonight, a week before the local elections,

we look at one of local Government's biggest duties, care for the elderly.

Are you excited about the Olympics?

Tonight, we look at its cultural side.

Joining us here are Suzy Davies of the Conservatives,

Myrddin Edwards of the Liberal Democrats

and broadcaster Beti George. Welcome and happy birthday, Myrddin!

There's only a week to go until we choose our new councillors.

For those who will be elected, they face huge decisions.

One of the biggest is how to provide care for the elderly

when money is tight.

After education, expenditure on Social Services,

which includes elderly care, is the biggest cost for councils.

Often it's families who shoulder the financial burden

and that's a huge concern for many.

James Williams has been assessing the challenges.

A lunchtime club in the Tumble.

Everybody over 60 years old is welcome here.

They have an opportunity to socialise over lunch and bingo.

But this group is very worried about the future.

Now that I have more aches and pains, it does hit you.

Thankfully, my mind is still active.

You could get care in the community.

It works well when it is good.

But everything breaks down.

If the carers are ill and if people don't come in for their shifts,

it is difficult for elderly people.

This kind of care is very expensive

and this is a challenge that faces local authorities.

How do you keep standards with less?

The Welsh Government believes the current system isn't sustainable

and they hope to change it by using new law-making powers.

A consultation on elderly care will last until the summer.

The aim is to give people more control over their own care.

This is the first bill for Wales.

It will give us legislation to go forward

and to pull everyone together. It is important to move on.

We need move the system to support people to live independently.

I think that's what everybody is trying to aim towards,

but creating such a system, which is about the needs

of the individual is difficult and will take a lot of time.

But what breaks the heart of many people

is having to sell their homes to pay for care.

The cost for staying in residential homes is a lottery across Wales.

It depends on what is available locally.

Anyone who has any money worth more than £23,000

has to pay for their cost fully.

In Cardiff, this ranges from just over £300 to £800 a week.

In Gwynedd, just under £600 is the norm. It's £469 in Pembrokeshire.

This is a copy of the Welsh Government's documents

on charging the elderly for residential care.

With over 120 pages, it's quite big,

which shows you how complex this issue is.

For one person receiving residential care,

another three receive care in the home.

The cost an individual pays for receiving care at home

depends on a financial assessment.

Those who can, pay towards their care.

£50 a week is the maximum an individual pays.

This isn't the situation for most people who need care.

96% of the care in communities across Wales

is done by volunteer carers.

The majority of people who are carers

are 50 years old and over.

If you change the system, it will mean that those wanting care

will receive less care in future.

The pressure is going to be moved onto the carers.

Local authorities are under pressure to make most of the cards

they hold over the next few years.

Beti George, viewers will have seen your film on dementia.

But people of a certain age will need some sort of care

-and that is costly.

-Yes, it is.

But I haven't had an opportunity to look into the cost yet.

I have forms in the house that I am supposed to fill

and that will give me £48 or something like that.

There are so many things you can do.

But where do you start? The cost?

The most important thing for me is the standard of care.

But it is so complex.

Anyone who has had to deal with this, it's very complicated.

If a person doesn't have a family

they have to deal with this themselves.

That's the point. Everybody should cooperate.

The Health Service, Social Services and so on.

Why aren't they? In Wales, we are a small country,

it would be perfect to have some sort of scheme to have these things

working together so people know who to turn to.

But isn't this the new bill that is coming through,

more cohesion between different departments?

Isn't the Government trying to do this?

We have commended Gwenda Thomas for her work on this.

But things is going to be difficult now.

People are living longer and it will put more pressure on the budget

here in the Assembly and also across the councils.

But there is a disconnect between the Health Service

and Social Services.

I have an example of somebody who went into hospital

after breaking their leg.

They were ready to go home,

but there wasn't a connection between the hospital

and the Social Services to make sure they could go home immediately.

They had to wait weeks until the paperwork went through.

That person stays in the hospital, is taking a bed that costs money,

but they can't go home where they want to be.

It is better for people to live independently at home.

There is a delayed transfer of care now.

The NHS and Social Services aren't cooperating.

It is a waste of money but it also a burden on the individual.

Suzy, people in the different departments

are trying to protect their own budgets.

If a person is in hospital, the Social Services

don't have to pay for the care, so they save money in that case.

This does happen.

They need to work closer together.

This unfortunately doesn't happen.

Doctors and voluntary groups are trying to work together

so people can remain at home.

But there are some examples where doctors

don't buy into that system.

So people go into hospital when there's no need.

But what about these carers? They are usually family members?

That saves £8 billion to the Westminster Government every year.

-But should family members be paid to do this work?

-I don't know.

When they mentioned the prices of residential care,

when I did my programme, they mentioned that they would charge

people with dementia £2,000.

That is the cost of good care.

-We are talking about £2,000 a week.

-Who can afford that?

That is a problem.

I have another example of a couple, where the woman has dementia

and the husband who is in his 80s needs a break.

He isn't a burden, but he's had to pay £2,000

to put her in a home for two weeks for him to have respite care.

The daughter has tried to sort this out

between the local authorities and the NHS.

Trying to get respite care is really complicated.

This person works in the Health Service

and knows what she is talking about.

She has insisted on having this care.

But who can afford £2,000 a week?

If the individual can't, then a local authority has to pay.

How can a local authority afford £2,200 a week?

What is cheaper for the council? Wouldn't it be better for them

to have their own unit, as I showed in my film?

One would be in Llan Ffestiniog.

Rather than depending on the private sector?

Let's raise the private sector now.

I don't know if you watched the Panorama programme this week,

that is worrying families.

If you have to put a person into residential care,

you want to make sure that they're receiving the best care.

A daughter watched her mother being treated awfully.

There is no excuse for such low standards.

I hope it doesn't happen anywhere,

but I'm sure there are examples out there.

I am pleased this has been shown on this television programme.

All the parties in the Welsh Government

are looking at expertise in residential care at the moment.

Why not have a nurse who is an expert in dementia

in every residential home?

There is a lesson here for politicians and society here.

Why doesn't society look after their elderly?

In countries such as Japan and France,

families take care of their elderly members.

That is one of the things that worries me.

Society isn't aware of what the needs are of people.

I am living with someone with Alzheimer's disease.

It is a responsibility on us in the media to raise awareness,

the Welsh Government has to do more about the matter.

-We need to raise awareness on this.

-Should we put more money into it?

Money doesn't always work.

We need to have better care.

I saw some out there that wasn't acceptable at all.

I also saw excellent care. Why can't we have that throughout Wales?

The problem is getting worse.

There are 37,000 people in Wales who are living with dementia.

That will grow by 21% in the next few years.

It is something that we will have to look at in future.

We need to deal with it, because it will be a problem.

It is as if they are trying to hide it.

They need to tackle it now.

Wales is the perfect place to have an example for other countries.

It's small. We all know each other.

The Government here should be tackling this now.

They should be saying that Wales will care for elderly people.

Wales is a small country. We all know each other.

We are a country that has a name for being caring.

The Government should show that Wales can tackle this problem.

They should be saying that Wales will show an example.

Stirling has made itself a dementia friendly town.

Glasgow has the same plans.

Scotland is in the lead now. I don't like that.

I want to see Wales leading the way.

Thank you very much.

On that note, there's exactly three months to go

before the start of the Olympic Games in London.

They'll be starting in Cardiff, as it happens,

with the football games at the Millennium Stadium.

But it's not only athletes who'll be taking part.

Over the next few months, a number of cultural events will also be held

across Wales and the rest of the UK, as part of the Cultural Olympiad.

Elliw Gwawr has more.

The original Olympic Games in Greece was a sport and arts festival,

and when the Olympic Games came to London the last time in 1948,

poets and artists celebrated their work side by side with the athletes.

And they could even win medals.

There's been considerable criticism of the amount of money

being spent on the London Olympic Games at the expense of Wales.

But as the Cultural Olympiad is launched here in Cardiff,

the organisers hope that people from all over Wales

will be able to take advantage of the cultural events in their area.

My first duty was securing £1.67 million back for Wales,

and with that money, we've developed projects

that have been running for four years,

which are now worth £3 million, and I think we're making the most of it.

Over the next few months, a number of performances and events

are being held across Wales as part of the Cultural Olympiad.

And one of those projects is Adain Avion,

and old plane which has been transformed into a mobile art space,

which will travel around Wales.

It's great, of course,

to be directly connected with the Olympic Games,

and also that people across Wales feel they're taking part,

that it's not just in London.

So there's a chance for people to get involved with the arts.

Of course, in the original Olympic Games,

there were prizes for artists,

so this, in a way, praises artists in Wales.

And as part of the plan,

the artist Owen Griffiths has worked with local people

to transform part of the Vetch, Swansea FC's old home,

into a vegetable garden for the community.

But will the events succeed in making people here in Wales

feel part of the Olympic Games?

There are events across Britain,

but not much money is being spent on them

compared to the huge, some would argue disastrously huge,

amount being spent on sports in London.

But with that, of course, some things are coming to Wales,

and Adain Avion is one example of that,

because it's something that will, hopefully, unite different places

which perhaps don't see themselves as being part of the same union.

So do the Games give an international stage

to Welsh artists as well as athletes?

Or are the eyes of the world only on London?

Well, Myrddin, it's an old tradition, of course,

to combine all the sports and cultural sides,

it's been going for four years this time,

but there's not much excitement, is there, about this Cultural Olympiad?

I did some research and looked for what exactly this is,

and as you say, it's been running for four years,

but I haven't heard much mention of it.

And we're talking now about how much money comes to Wales for the arts,

and of course that's very small money

compared to what's been lost through funding the Olympics.

I do agree with the Olympics, and it will be a stage for Britain,

and hopefully Wales, to sell itself to the world, and I hope...

Yes, what is there for Wales at the Olympics?

Not only culturally, but the whole thing.

Well, that's the thing.

We've been complaining about this at the Assembly for some time.

We don't think the Welsh Government, Labour and Plaid Cymru at the time,

has done enough to take advantage of the contracts

which were won across the UK.

Scotland and Northern Ireland won millions and millions

in the Tier One project, the big projects,

where companies from Wales could profit from the Olympics.

We looked into how much representation the Government made,

Ieuan Wyn Jones's department

when he was Minister for the Economy at the time.

Not much at all, not even contacting the Olympics Committee to see...

Well, to be fair, the argued back at the time, didn't they,

this was raised by Guto Harri, wasn't it,

when he said Wales has to try its best to be enthusiastic.

Compared to what the Scottish and Northern Irish governments did,

they went out and said, "Right, this is coming, there's lots of money.

"What can we do to get more money?"

That's what the Assembly Government didn't do.

Suzy Davies, £1.6 billion isn't a small amount,

it's not small change you find down the back of the sofa.

But the point is, compared to what's taken from the Lottery funds,

which funds the arts, heritage and so on in Wales,

it's not much, is it?

You know, the arts in Wales have suffered because of the Olympics.

Well, I'm glad to see any money coming back to Wales

to support the arts and heritage, of course.

We don't get much and we don't spend much

on these subjects in Wales anyway,

so I welcome any money that comes here,

but as Myrddin said, not many people know this is happening.

I'm sure people taking part in the Cultural Olympiad

will get a lot of it, but when the minister said, for example,

that 95% of people will be within two or three miles

of a Cultural Olympiad event, well, I'm not sure that that will happen.

And also, there's not a great theme to it, is there?

You know, much of it is things, you think,

well, yes, it's possible enough that a Welsh national theatre company

would have presented a Shakespeare play at the Eisteddfod anyway.

That that's where the money has gone.

Well, there's a point there,

because there are four specific projects which go across Wales,

but it's open to anyone to make a bid to be part of that.

16 million people have taken part in the performances, it seems,

have seen them across the Olympiad, so far,

but Beti, this Olympiad is supposed to inspire people.

Do you think there'll be a cultural inheritance after the Games?

I don't think so.

That is, these things happen.

As Vaughan suggested, I think these things would happen anyway.

And I do welcome any cultural things happening in Wales.

But the question that I ask is,

we can afford these things, we can afford the Olympic Games and things,

but we can't afford to look after our old people.

So would you be interested in... Have you bought tickets?

-Goodness, no.

-A boycott.

-Yes.

-Really?

-Yes.

Myrddin, do you feel so strongly?

Um... No, I'd like to go, I'd like to be a steward in London,

to try to be part of it,

because the last time it was here was in 195...

-..48.

-48!

And of course, I wasn't alive then.

THEY LAUGH

-But, um...

-Me neither, if you're suggesting otherwise!

-THEY LAUGH

-I was!

-THEY LAUGH

-And I don't remember anything about it.

And, you know, I want to...

I'd like to be part of it,

but I am looking forward to the Olympic Games,

because I hope it can sell Britain and Wales to the world, and...

You must be in favour, Suzy.

Well, I don't see much inheritance for Wales, I must admit.

Of course, there's no money to build theatres or performance spaces.

But as Myrddin said, in the first place,

the whole Olympics didn't have enough ambition.

And yet, the whole thing starts here in Cardiff,

the whole thing starts here in Cardiff, doesn't it,

and there are tickets left for the first football game.

Well, there's a lot more to Wales than Cardiff.

Right.

We have a chance now to raise the big question of the week,

will Jeremy Hunt still be in his job in time to get Olympic tickets?

-Beti.

-No, he won't.

No, he won't.

-Yes, he will.

-THEY LAUGH

What did you make of his performance today, Suzy?

Since we're talking about the Olympics, to do with the Olympics.

I didn't see that, of course, because I was down in the Assembly,

but I've seen some of it on the news afterwards.

He's just said,

"I'm coming to Westminster to say

I'll be taking part in the Leveson Inquiry too."

We'll see what he says.

I see him...

-Vince Cable said the opposite thing...

-Yeah.

That he was against the merger with Murdoch,

he said, "Declare war against Murdoch,"

so he was taken from that role, so I think it's right that Jeremy Hunt,

that something happens to Jeremy Hunt,

that he takes responsibility too,

because he's meant to be like a judge, taking neither side,

and making his own decision,

but it's clear that before going into this process,

he was on the side of the Murdochs.

And Beti, I sense you wouldn't be sad to see the back of him.

Well no, when I remember what he said about S4C

before he changed his mind, he wasn't especially kind.

He was like... He knew nothing about S4C or the Welsh language.

No, I wouldn't miss him, I must say.

Right, well, that's it, we'll see,

maybe he'll be here next week, maybe not,

but we'll certainly be back next week.

A little later than usual next week, 10.05pm,

on the eve of the election, of course,

so we'll have members of the four main parties with us next week.

Until then, thanks for your company and goodnight.

Goodnight.