16/05/2012 CF99

Good evening and welcome to half an hour of political discussion,

live from the Senedd.

Tonight, the Welsh Language Commissioner

proposes new standards for institutions,

but amidst the savings, how much welcome will there be

for her challenge to improve Welsh language services?

And should a teacher in Barry get the same salary

as one in Barnet?

We'll get to the heart of the debate about regional pay.

And, as ever, you're welcome to join the debate via Twitter,

using the hashtag #CF99.

Here to debate tonight are the Plaid Cymru AM, Llyr Huws Griffiths,

Eric Davies, a spokesman for the CBI in Wales,

and Sian Howys from Cymdeithas yr Iaith is in our Aberystwyth studio.

Welcome to you three.

I wonder how good Welsh language services are in your area?

From today until the end of the National Eisteddfod,

the Welsh Language Commissioner wants the opinions

of as many people as possible on new standards which will be set

on institutions and companies.

According to Meri Huws, the aim of these standards

will be to strengthen the place Welsh has in every aspect of life in Wales.

Well, before the first public meeting tonight in Cardiff,

Meri Huws explained to me what the purpose of the standards was.

In setting these standards,

what was driving us was actioning the Measure,

ensuring the status of the Welsh language,

and I think that's important for us to acknowledge,

and developing standards which create consistency,

which are clear to the provider and the user,

and which allow those bodies across Wales to plan ahead.

Shall we look at some examples, then?

For example,

if someone in a council-owned old people's home in Carmarthenshire

wanted a Welsh-speaking nurse,

would that individual have the right to insist

on a Welsh-speaking nurse?

When the standards are accepted and actioned,

and are actioned in the health board in that particular area,

the standard says that a service needs to be maintained

according to the individual's language requirements.

That standard would have to be actioned.

And if they don't provide a Welsh-speaking nurse,

what could you do?

What would happen then was we'd expect a complaint,

or we as part of our monitoring process

would see that they weren't providing it.

But the complaints process will be extremely important

to enable us to recognise when people fail to reach the standards.

And would they then be fined?

There's a fine, that possibility is in the Measure,

and I hope we won't have to use that too often, but it's there.

There was a big debate during the Measure

about goodwill and obligation.

Are you worried that a lot of goodwill will now be lost

because these standards will seem very drastic to a great many people.

We're talking about a period of years.

And then, I hope, in opening the discussion

from how these standards look to the user and the provider,

we'll get understanding.

And I've already been astonished by people saying,

"Fine, I understand, it's now law. How can we succeed, then?"

And fairly unlikely people saying that.

In terms of the timetable, you're what, many years, how long?

It's... Let me remind you too

that we've only been around for six weeks.

So I think we've done extremely well

to get a document like this out within six weeks,

knowing that people want things to change.

The Measure sets out a process of putting these standards in place,

turning them into law.

Once they're in place, we'll action them straight away.

We don't want to sit around, either.

In terms of the entry at the Assembly,

the Assembly itself breaks these standards at the moment.

At the moment.

So they'd have to improve, as well, and set an example?

I think as standards are actioned,

they'll want to conform fully with those standards.

Or the Assembly could be fined.

That's a possibility.

At the beginning of a consultation like this one,

many people would say you're setting the bar high.

Is your aim to know...

Was it your mindset to know it would have to be lowered?

If there are strong arguments to move the bar in any direction,

up or down, we'll listen.

And lastly, do you feel in terms of legislation,

that the language is in a stable enough condition at the moment,

or do you foresee that a new Welsh Language Measure will be needed?

Well, one of the duties of the Welsh Language Commissioner

is to feed into that process.

I'd foresee, perhaps, that that situation would arise quite quickly,

not needing a new law or measure, but reform of the current one.

Meri Huws.

Sian Howys, I think I'm right in saying that this idea of standards

hasn't been used anywhere else in the world.

How confident are you that this idea could work,

and work more effectively than the old system

of public sector language schemes?

It's really hard to know, isn't it?

Of course, we have worries about the Measure itself,

in terms of the standards,

that they're unbalanced in that they give too much focus

to the institutions and bodies themselves,

rather than prioritising people's needs.

The people of Wales want to see a shift.

They want to see change in terms of creating a bilingual society,

ensuring services, ensuring the right to use the Welsh language.

That's what we want to see,

and so what's important is that the standards can now

deliver that right to use the Welsh language,

and don't give some get-out clauses to institutions and bodies.

That they're simple and clear, and that it means there will be change

in a way which moves things forward from the old language schemes.

Policing is important, isn't it,

because we all know of examples of public bodies

which had good enough language schemes,

but if you went, for examples, to their website,

they'd be for years "working towards a Welsh-language website,"

and so on.

Is that right for the individual to complain to the Commissioner,

and for the Commissioner to levy a fine, a key element?

It is key, and of course, we campaigned for a long time,

and an important part of what we were asking for as a society

was a commissioner, to be a champion for the people of Wales

in terms of using the Welsh language,

and that will be important too,

that the commissioner expects to be available

to listen to the people of Wales and take action

on behalf of service users, and shows that side,

of giving the obligation when it's needed,

because that's certainly what was missing

in the previous language act.

Eric Davies, we've been mainly discussing the public sector,

but in terms of the business world,

companies which receive more than £400,000, for example,

from the public purse, will be affected here,

and smaller companies which perhaps do work for councils, and so on.

What will the response be in the private sector?

Quite a bit of turmoil on reading the consultation for the first time.

Once any businessman hears the words "law" and "obligation,"

"you are obliged to conform," it will cause some alarm,

and many of our members are very dubious about it.

If you get a £400,000 grant towards a project

that perhaps costs £2 million or £3 million,

and when we're asking for investment into Wales,

this raises another question, if you like,

for the campaign to get people into Wales...

Are you suggesting they're keeping away because of this?

Perhaps not keeping away because of this, but it may be a shock

if there's an obligation to conform fully if you receive £400,000.

It's not a huge sum,

compared with the investment we're asking for in Wales.

Llyr, it strikes me that if you're a private company

that has a long-term contract with the public sector,

there are all kinds of things you have to do to fulfil your contract,

and that's reasonable.

It's perhaps harder for a company bidding for one piece of work,

which perhaps only lasts six or nine months.

I'd think that would be more of a problem.

Well, you use the word "problem,"

perhaps it's more of a challenge, you know, for those businesses,

but the reality is that if they want the work,

they're expected to reach a whole host of standards and expectations,

in terms of insurance, in terms of being properly qualified, and so on,

and I don't see the right or the ability to provide a service

in someone's preferred language...

-It's another thing to add to all those things, isn't it?

-Of course it is.

And if you're a company, perhaps especially a small company,

weighing up whether or not to make a bid, you know,

we hear frequently in this place

that small companies find it hard to get contracts

because there are expectations in so many fields.

It's an extra expectation, isn't it?

Yes, but the expectations from small businesses will be proportionate,

I'd imagine, with what's practical, I'd assume.

But the truth is, of course, we're looking at it as a problem.

Many people in the private sector see bilingualism, for example,

as a chance to reach a new, wider audience,

where customers can identify better with their business,

and therefore use their business above others.

Right, but there'll be a cost, won't there, Sian Howys?

It will cost companies to action this,

and that during a time of big cuts and savings.

Every pound that is invested in Welsh language services

will stay in Wales.

It will help to strengthen our economy,

because it is only here that it can happen.

That is a very important issue.

Eric Davies, what is your reaction to that?

We have built up a lot of goodwill through the process.

Mary Huws has been part of that process.

Good will has been built but you have to consider

whether it is profitable for the business.

I have recruited Welsh speakers because it helps my business.

Employing people who speak different languages helps the company

with business. It gives me extra opportunities in business.

And that is what drives businesses.

As Welsh speakers, we should be using Welsh more in business.

Llyr, there's a problem where you have a company

which deals face to face with the public in Wales,

such as a supermarket or a bank.

We have seen these companies putting up bilingual signs,

some in the Welsh language even, but it is much more difficult

to deal with companies that operate on the internet

and could be based outside of Britain.

I'm sure these factors have been considered by the Commissioner.

It is a long-term issue.

This'll will not happen at the flick of a switch.

Eric was talking about recruiting Welsh speakers.

This will be a factor when this is implemented.

But I am pleading on Meri Huws to be brave about this.

There is a chance here to change culture.

It is important that Welsh speakers consider their rights

but providers when they consider the rights of Welsh speakers.

If the Commissioner doesn't show a bit of courage,

I'm worried we'll miss an opportunity to change our culture

sooner than what we would have wanted.

Are the policing powers strong enough?

A fine of £5,000 isn't going to mean a lot though these large companies.

No. When you look at the annual reports,

we'll have to make sure this isn't a tick box exercise

for some officer somewhere.

It will be important for the Commissioner

to listen to the people of Wales.

As a Welsh Language Society, we still receives complaints.

We'll be handing over a black book to Meri Huws

when we meet here in June.

It is important that she is available and that she responds.

It is important that people can have confidence in her

and that she understands the problems that Welsh speakers face.

You said the reaction will not be too good to start

but then time will mellow things.

That is what goodwill is all about. Business is not anti-Welsh.

Business priorities concentrate now on keeping above water.

But you have to look to the future rather than the short term.

Do public sector workers earn too much?

The Welsh Government doesn't think so and the other parties here agree.

Chancellor George Osborne argues that a regional pay system

needs to be introduced to boost the private sector

and to create a more balanced economy.

James Williams has more.

The start of the day at Nantgaredig School in Carmarthenshire.

They are learning about the hungry caterpillar.

They learn about the dangers of eating too much.

It is an important lesson for the public sector

after years of inflated wages.

Introducing regional pay would mean that some workers like teachers

would receive a salary that would vary from region to region.

Following the Budget, Westminster ministers said

that they should consider introducing such a system

because they have evidence showing big difference

between public sector and private sector pay.

But the Welsh Government argues that this isn't true.

According to Treasury figures, Wales has the largest pay gap.

Public sector workers are paid up to 18% more

than their private sector counterparts.

Across Britain the average is 8.3%.

But the Welsh Government has put across new evidence

which has found a smaller total.

Assembly parties, including the Tories and the Liberal Democrats

have united against the plans which have angered the unions.

We have national pay rates.

The current Government is trying to attack that.

What will happen after this?

This is the annual dinner of the Federation of Small Businesses.

Whilst the body itself faces a regional pay, not everyone agrees.

The private sector is suffering with the economy at the moment

and there is no spare money.

If you want to attract the right people,

you have to be willing to pay,

but the public sector press the private sector.

People in the public sector get paid the same amount

no matter where they live.

This cuts the market, in a way.

That means private sector companies in Wales cannot compete.

More than 50 MPs called on the Government

not to press on with its plans regarding this issue.

An independent body on salaries is looking into this at present.

We will have to wait until the summer for the results.

Eric Davies, let's start with the argument

in favour of regional pay.

Speaking on behalf of the CBI,

we believe people in the public sector should be paid

regarding what's happening in the local economy.

There's a difference of around 10-15% between the public

and private sectors.

There is also a difference of some 8% or 18% or 14%

between the public and private sector.

When you put these things together,

it is only fair that public companies

are allowed to compete in the market.

But with less to spend, the local economy will suffer.

The private sector helps to pay for the public sector

and we need the same kind of response in the sector

regarding pay and contracts.

Local authorities go for the lowest price.

I can guess that the same thing is true in the public service.

But you're not going to strengthen the private sector in Wales

by weakening the public sector.

Let us look at the principle.

We often hear from the unions

that a nurse should be paid the same no matter where she works.

But she should get the same standard of living as well.

But you can live quite comfortably on £40,000 in Wales

but you would not be able to in the south-east of England.

No, I disagree. The Government is saying

because you are poor will you be paid less.

You will lose good workers to better places

and services will suffer.

You will see the economy suffering

because there is less money in that economy.

It is just helping the poverty.

Your party argued in favour of devolving teachers pay.

Unions have recognised that there's a difference between regional pay

and devolution of pay.

-Would you be paying more?

-No, we would not be doing that.

We would just be able to defend the level we have.

There has been a difference in courts which came in under Labour

and there wasn't a revolution then.

It has been settled and everything's fine.

If it happens across the board then it will lead to poverty in Wales.

Our economy depends heavily on the public sector.

Many areas such as the one I live in depend on the public sector.

The public sector is dependent on the private sector.

There'll be less money around and it will lead to more poverty.

These are Tory policies.

The Government of Wales say they do not want this kind of competition

and the capitalistic market extending.

Eric, you and I may be old enough to remember the problems

where people moved out of the rural areas.

Ceredigion was one of the poorest counties for decades.

There are many public sector jobs there now

and that's transformed the economy of these areas.

The wealth comes from the private sector.

Universities are funded by the private sector in the end.

But that is not true for every area.

The public sector may look after an area such as Cambridge

but the private sector is based elsewhere.

The private sector doesn't have to lead in every area

-in every local economy.

-We're talking about the real world.

The universities will create inventions

and so on and that can go into the private sector.

Protecting the public sector doesn't mean

we don't want to see it being created in the private sector.

I am in favour of seeing the private sector growing.

The weakness of the Welsh economy is that the private sector is too weak.

But you shouldn't punish the public sector.

You also have the problem of housing.

People are finding it difficult to be able to live

in their communities.

I think it is a wider social problem that needs to be looked at.

Eric Davies, if you are in favour of the principle,

what about regional pay within Wales?

That already happens in the private sector

especially in accountancy.

There's a difference between Cardiff and Swansea in some jobs.

It is already happening in the private sector.

But you wouldn't pay nurses in Cardiff

more than those in North Wales would you?

Nurses and people in the public sector offer a service.

The pay in the private sector

depends on people's ability to pay for that service.

If the regional pay system means it's cheaper to employ

someone in the public sector, that is going to happen in the end.

The BBC has a regional pay scheme.

Dewi Llwyd gets a little bit less than Huw Edwards!

Thank you for the time being.

Labour Assembly Member Keith Davies has been censured for his behaviour

following a drunken night in Cardiff.

The Standards Committee's report was accepted unanimously here

and his party has been assured that he will not misbehave again.

We'll have a quick word with Llyr Huws Gruffydd.

You are on the Standards Committee. We need new rules here?

We have started the work of reviewing the code of conduct

and the punishment available to us as a committee.

We looked at this case with the rules that were already in place.

Work has already begun to revamp things.

Labour could have taken this further.

They could have withdrawn the whip for a couple of weeks,

but they decided not to.

They decided, as did the Assembly, to censure him.

-Was that disappointing for you?

-The Assembly didn't have a choice.

Labour didn't take much action and I am very disappointed with that.

Thank you very much for a very interesting discussion.

That's all for another week. Until the same time next Wednesday.

Remember Dau o'r Bae on Friday at 1:15pm.

-Until next week, good evening.

-Good evening.