07/11/2012 CF99


07/11/2012

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Hello and welcome for another half an hour of politics here in Cardiff Bay.

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America has elected its new President and a week tomorrow,

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we will be at the polling stations as well.

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More on the Police Commissioners in a moment.

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But first, we will be discussing the latest on the allegations

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of abuse in children's homes in North Wales during the 1970s and '80s.

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What was hidden and why?

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Joining us tonight are Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd,

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the Conservative Felix Aubel and journalist Gareth Hughes.

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Welcome to you.

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After the Jillings and Waterhouse reports,

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Westminster has agreed to set up two new inquiries

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into allegations of abuse at children's care homes in North Wales.

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There are allegations that a prominent political figure

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is part of that case and that previous inquiries had failed

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to reveal the truth.

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Tomos Livingstone has the latest.

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Bryn Estyn in Wrexham.

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It is a scar on the history of Wales

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and one that has been re-opened this week.

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Children were sexually abused here during the '70s and '80s

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but questions have been raised about who was to blame.

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Was the 1996 independent inquiry thorough enough?

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With stories about Jimmy Savile in the newspapers,

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there's pressure to look again into the Bryn Estyn case.

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Keith Towler has raised his concerns

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with the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

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What kind of inquiry will take place?

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Will it be held by a judge or a Commissioner?

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You can't open the old inquiry

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because many people have died since then.

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The question for me

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is how can we move forward to make sure that people get answers?

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There were feeling in Cardiff Bay

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that Westminster should be leading this one.

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Steve Messham travelled to London

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to hear two new inquiries are to be held.

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One into the North Wales Police

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and the other will look into the Waterhouse Report.

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It is important the victims have the opportunity to a fair hearing.

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I am pleased that Mr Messham came to talk to us.

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It was very important to him as well.

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There were claims that Conservative politicians

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had been abusing children in North Wales.

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One of the politicians is alive but has not been named publicly.

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Last night, one victim said that Sir Peter Morrison,

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the MP for Chester who died in 1995, had visited the children's home.

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Questions have to be asked about why the inquiry

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was blinkered in a way at that time.

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There were debates within Parliament

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after the report was published why people weren't named.

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There were also questions as to why the police

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didn't look into the allegations.

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Can these allegations be properly looked at

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as so much time has passed?

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The victims hope that this is a chance for the truth to come out.

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Elfyn Llwyd,

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do you share these concerns about the Waterhouse Inquiry

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as someone who has been involved in the legal circles in North Wales?

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Yes. I think the biggest problem is that the remit of that inquiry

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was too narrow. It should have been expanded.

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It wasn't good enough in my opinion for anyone to say

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because this abuse took place outside of the care home,

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it wasn't something that they could investigate.

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The evidence should have been looked at very carefully by the police

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to see how far it went.

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It is a matter what the remit was at the time.

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I remember the investigation was welcomed

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and it has raised many issues and showed abuse on a wide scale.

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But many of us argued afterwards what has happened

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to those who took part in the abuse,

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why only six or seven have been prosecuted.

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That is the point. Many things happened,

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including setting up the Children's Commissioner for Wales post?

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Nothing was set up to get justice for the victims.

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That is why I am worried.

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I agree with what the Welsh Secretary said.

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I agree with the Children's Commissioner.

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Shehas said that extra resources will be brought in from London.

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We need to look at what happened with Waterhouse.

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I think the remit was too narrow.

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There won't be any mismanagement with that inquiry.

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That inquiry did as well as they could.

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What I don't understand is for some of them to suggest

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to these young people because it was outside the remit

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they did not want to know anything about it,

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that doesn't make any sense. The police should have come right in.

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Dozens were named in the report. I remember reading the report myself.

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Dozens of people haven't been prosecuted.

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Felix Aubel, William Hague was the Welsh Secretary at the time

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and he called for this inquiry.

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Why did he put in place such a narrow remit?

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That is a mystery.

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We have to look at this current situation rather than looking back.

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But we have to look back in order to learn lessons?

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David Cameron wants to have a detailed report of what happened.

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Looking back Waterhouse,

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why didn't they look at abuse that happened outside the care homes?

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We have to ask the politicians. I don't have that answer.

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But was something being hidden?

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We had the Jillings Report that was shelved.

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Questions have to be raised as to what was being hidden.

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It is possible that some people only gave evidence if they weren't named.

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I remember when I was working in North Wales

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there were rumours about Peter Morrison.

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People tended to turn a blind eye.

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But there was no link between that and care homes in North Wales.

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Let's look at what the Welsh Government has done here.

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They have left the Westminster Government to sort it out

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as devolution hadn't taken place then.

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Are you surprised that Carwyn Jones has told them to look after it?

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I'm not surprised.

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The Assembly don't have the right to look into police matters.

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But they are responsible for child welfare?

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If you look at what happened in the '90s,

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there was a lot of talk about how the police dealt with the problem.

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Those who gave evidence said there were some accusations

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against some people in the police force itself.

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I think Westminster should look into the matter.

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Would you agree with that? Do you think there could be a joint inquiry?

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I hope that Carwyn Jones will take part in this process.

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We need to look into Waterhouse,

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but with the police it hasn't been devolved to Wales yet.

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It is important that Westminster takes the main role in that respect.

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But Carwyn Jones has to talk with Westminster

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and represent the people of Wales to tell them

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what kind of inquiry we want to look into the events of Waterhouse

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You can't wash your hands of the matter

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and say it is a matter for Westminster.

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Felix Aubel, there have been calls for a much wider inquiry.

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We have got quite a few inquiries going on.

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We need some sort of Leveson Inquiry to look at the matters in general?

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I would welcome that.

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Terrible things have taken place and we have to sort it out

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and find out who did what and when.

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We need to learn from the past in order to improve our future.

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Isn't there a danger of hysteria here?

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Somebody just wants to call for an inquiry and it's given?

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If somebody makes an allegation like this,

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I don't think these young people here haven't had fair play.

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The victims haven't been treated fairly

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for example Savil's victims and these victims in North Wales.

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I think we need an inquiry into this.

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But the question is what kind of inquiry.

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I think it should be one big one because things overlap.

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Some are asking whether Jimmy Savile was in North Wales.

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So, we should look at it as a bigger picture.

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Realistically, the idea of prosecuting people,

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and having a jury find them guilty

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is going to be very difficult after such a long time?

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I don't think so. Only two weeks ago that a man in his late 80s

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was prosecuted for abusing girls in the 1970s.

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It is possible to do that if the evidence is in place.

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As Gareth said, there were allegations

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against one high-ranking officer in North Wales.

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I don't know whether that is true or not.

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But it is a good thing that experts, who specialise in child abuse,

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are coming in to help in this inquiry.

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We need a truly independent inquiry into this.

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But in an extensice inquiry,

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some things could slip through the cracks.

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We have to concentrate on what happened in North Wales.

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You can't open the umbrella too much otherwise you will lose the details.

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But as inquiries, such as Hillsborough and Bloody Sunday,

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because they are over such a long period of time,

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does it mean you can reach the truth after such a long time?

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But after time passes, people tend to forget.

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In the case of what has happened in children's homes in North Wales,

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you have to act immediately while it is still fresh in the mind.

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But do you think they will have a fairer hearing now

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than they would have during the Waterhouse Inquiry?

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I think that's true. We should have a panel of people

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like they did during the Hillsborough inquiry.

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They all had different abilities

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and looked into things in more detail.

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I would like to see an inquiry and things being more open.

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Thank you very much.

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An election will be held in Wales a week tomorrow,

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although the race to choose new Police Commissioners

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hasn't been given much attention.

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These are new posts.

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How much of an affect will these new Commissioners have?

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Is there a better era for policing in Wales on the horizon?

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High-ranking police officers come to Glamorgan University

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to hone their skills.

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This control room is used to interview suspects

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and to try to control civil crisis.

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Before long, they will be answerable to a new chief,

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an elected Police Commissioner.

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The new commissioners can't make day-to-day policing decisions

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but they will have powers.

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They will rule the budget.

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They will decide on the policing priorities.

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But will it lead to more local and community policing?

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Is that asking too much of one officer?

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The main debate will be prioritising.

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How will the people connect with the communities?

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How will they pull out the priorities the communities need?

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We think of a community as one thing, but it isn't.

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Community is different to everyone.

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It could be a community on the internet or elderly people.

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It could be a community of young people.

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You have to take into account everyone

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and how they are going to vote for the new commissioner.

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But is there a potential to break new ground?

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Law-and-order has not been devolved to Wales, but one expert says,

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it is possible that a new Welsh way of policing will develop.

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What is the role of policing in Wales?

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How should we organise policing in Wales in this devolved era?

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What are the needs of Wales when it comes to the Welsh language?

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There is an opportunity here to create a new climate

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that will lead to public discussion on the strategic role.

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This is the real value of this role.

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What is the shape and form of policing in Wales?

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But the preparations have been uneasy so far.

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Thousands of English language voting slips had to be binned

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after a mistake by the Home Office.

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Not everyone believes that we are on the verge of a new era

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of policing in Wales.

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We are worried that the turnout is going to be very low.

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This raises questions about mandate.

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It doesn't matter how hard candidates have worked.

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There are questions about how information is going to be given

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to the public about candidates. It hasn't been organised very well.

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Many mistakes have been made during this campaign.

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We will be stepping into a new era

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with the election of four new Police Commissioners.

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It's possible that the four will lead Wales to new grounds.

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With money tight, any dramatic changes will take time.

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If you want more information on all the candidates,

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please visit our website.

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-Elfyn Llwyd, these Police Commissioners, is it a good idea?

-No.

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I don't see the point in having them.

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There are dangers in bringing politics into policing.

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Policing exists because the public have a relationship

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with the police where they allow the police

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to do their work and they help them.

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Bring politics or the idea of politics into this

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and that relationship will fail.

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90% of crimes are solved after information is given by the public.

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If you destroy that very important relationship,

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policing could be very difficult

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and we could be going down a slippery slope.

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Damian Green, The minister responsible for policing said today

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that it would be unlikely that something like that could happen

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with one individual in this post.

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Scandals such as the North Wales homes abuse couldn't happen?

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I think that is a desperate justification.

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That is something quite shocking to say the least.

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We have just heard that the Commissioner

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won't have the right to interfere in day-to-day policing.

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Damian Green is talking nonsense, which is a shock.

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If that's the best reason to justify the posts,

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he is in a fragile position.

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Gareth Hughes, even if this person is neutral and balanced,

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the public's perception of him is going to raise questions.

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Say there is a sensitive inquiry into a quango

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and there is a connection with the Commissioner and the quango,

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-it is going to raise questions?

-We have had recently problems

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with the connection between the Labour Party and the charity AWEMA.

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There was a link between Labour and people running AWEMA.

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If someone had been elected to control the police,

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some would argue that this isn't fair.

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Are they going to look closely at these problems.

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-Problems like these are bound to arise, aren't they?

-Without a doubt.

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Some researchers in the Conservative Party have decided

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that the American Commissioners was the way to go.

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Then they have convinced the party leaders.

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The idea is going through without any proper research.

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I do urge people to support these commissioners.

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We are going to have these Commissioners but I am very dubious.

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I don't think we should bring politics into policing.

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It seems Labour is going to do well in the elections.

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We might have a monopoly of Commissioners

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from one party in Wales.

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You wouldn't want Boris Johnson in the Met.

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That is the role, isn't it?

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I think the police should be responsible for running the police.

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But who should be keeping an eye on them, the Police Authority?

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We shouldn't have political interference in the system.

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I am worried about this. I think it will damage the police's image

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if it is linked with party politics.

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The police is neutral and that's why the public are willing to help them.

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This is the question of transferring policing powers to Cardiff Bay?

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If that happened, the Assembly would supervise the police?

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Yes. I think that Felix is right.

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The problem is a person who has been put forward on behalf of a party,

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they are under pressure to be in that post.

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The party then has an idea on how much to spend and what to spend on.

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When the Anti-Social Behaviour Orders came in,

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the Home Office would directly interfere

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with every police force right across Britain

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to get them to use these ASBOs.

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I think similar ideas like this will be pushed on to people.

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But when the police will be devolved,

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and I think it is coming ever nearer because the debate is strengthening,

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the Assembly and the Ministers here will be the ones

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that will be supervising the policing.

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What about the fact that this is a way of making the police forces

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more answerable to the people of Wales?

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I don't think it will.

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The power to supervise the police should come to Wales.

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It's not likely to come in the near future either.

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I think it is silly what the Conservatives have done.

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Those who have been elected will say

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that they had better have a national political committee

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like the WLGA for the Police Commissioners.

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They will be telling Westminster they have evidence of doing this.

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Maybe this would have worked better during the time

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when budgets for the policing was increasing?

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And you'd would be spending money on more things.

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But the commissioners will have to look for cuts.

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This is true. Many people have talked to me about this.

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You put another layer of bureaucracy on policing,

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it will cost £100,000 a year for these Commissioners

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and you expect police forces to make cuts.

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Policing should be devolved to Wales.

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If it is good enough for the Northern Ireland Parliament,

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it is good enough for the Assembly in Wales.

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-There are concerns that will be a low turnout?

-I think it will be very low.

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It will be very low. I had my postal vote two days ago.

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I don't know who to vote for.

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I didn't have any information at all.

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9% is the lowest ever, that was opening pubs on Sunday.

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-Will it be lower than that?

-That is quite an important issue.

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What will be the percentage?

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No percentage. Everybody on the fence. Many thanks to you all.

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We will be back at the earlier time of 9.30pm next Wednesday.

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-Good night.

-Good night.

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