17/04/2013 CF99

Hello and welcome to CF99, live from the National Assembly in Cardiff Bay.

Today, the attention of the political world has been on the events

in London.

On the day of Margaret Thatcher's funeral and in the days

since she died, her career has been debated.

Tonight, we will discuss the response from politicians in Wales in remembering

one of the most controversial figures of recent history.

At the beginning of a new political term,

we're joined by the Labour AM for Llanelli, Keith Davies,

and the former journalist who is now a media consultant, Elin Wyn.

And in our Westminster studio,

the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies.

Good evening.

Over 2,000 people gathered at St Paul's to bid farewell to

Margaret Thatcher - her family, friends,

leaders and politicians from Britain and the rest of the world.

Over recent days, her place in the history books has been debated.

James Williams takes a look at the response from politicians

here in Wales.

It was a day to remember.

To cry.

For the famous

and the ordinary.

To respect and to protest.

There are few who would deny Baroness Thatcher transformed Britain,

but was that for the better or for the worse?

The debate over the former Prime Minister's legacy has been

continuing since she died nine days ago.

I think it has been a lively debate in Wales.

I think it has been an honest debate.

And it has been a debate.

And all of those things reflect Margaret Thatcher's legacy.

An honest politician, a clear politician and a politician

who was always prepared to debate on a national level.

In the Assembly yesterday,

a special session was held for tributes to Margaret Thatcher.

Some Plaid Cymru and Labour members decided to stay away,

including the former Presiding Officer.

I won't be taking part in any memorial for Baroness Thatcher.

I didn't go to London last week. I couldn't.

I would have considered myself a hypocrite if I had done so.

When I was the leader of Plaid Cymru during the miners' strike,

I did everything I could to defend communities in Wales and failed.

The First Minister was treading carefully, as he showed a political enemy respect.

It is right to say, Llywydd, that she

brought many of us in this Chamber into politics.

Some on the benches opposite, of course, in support of her views.

Others of us in strong reaction to what she did.

Indeed, it was what happened during the course of the miners' strike

that brought me on the political path that I have taken every since.

She was an inspiring leader and a brave leader.

And I think she transformed the political

landscape of Britain for ever

and I think when she leaved the post of prime minister, this

nation was far more successful and confident and far more enterprising.

From the Falklands War to the miners' strike in 1984,

the first female prime minister made her mark on Wales and the Welsh.

We will probably see the effects of Margaret Thatcher for 20 years

and maybe even longer.

Mao Tse Tung was asked 200 years after the French revolution

about the effects of the French revolution

and he said it was too early to tell.

Maybe in 100 years, we will still be trying to work out exactly

the impact of Margaret Thatcher.

But she has affected everyone who lives in this country.

For some, she was a heroine, for other, a villain.

And in bidding farewell to Margaret Thatcher, her influence over

Wales and its politics remains a topic of discussion.

James Williams. Glyn, you were at today's funeral.

It was a dignified funeral.

I don't think anyone would deny Margaret Thatcher such a funeral.

But what about everything else?

The marching, the ceremonies and so on before the funeral?

Was that really needed?

I understand why people are asking that question.

But what I am asking is what did the people of Britain want?

And I think what happened today was what the people of Britain wanted.

I know that some people didn't want that,

some people did not admire lady Thatcher,

but I think the majority in Britain saw her as an exceptional

prime minister and I think they wanted to see some

sort of ceremony, as we have seen today.

Were you pleased...? It seemed to me there was some booing,

but the people who disagreed with Margaret Thatcher on the whole

seemed to have decided to stay away rather than protesting.

If people don't want to go, they feel that they cannot go,

well, it's better that they stay away. I understand that.

But there were a lot of people at today's funeral who disagreed

with some of Margaret Thatcher's policies.

I understand that.

But they went because they saw her as someone who won three

general elections, she was popular throughout Britain,

she had over 40% support, 30% in Wales.

But people see that and respect that

and I think that people disagreed with some of her policies,

but they were there today to pay their respects to someone who

changed Britain and someone who is seen as a special person.

Keith Davies, we saw in that film that there was a session

here in memory of Margaret Thatcher. Was that appropriate?

I don't think so. What did she have to do with the Assembly?

I don't know.

But what I didn't like was what you mentioned earlier - they went up to

Westminster last week

and the Bishop of Grantham saying today that he was

surprised that they had a funeral that had cost so much

money at a time when millionaires are saving money on income tax

and then benefits are cut.

Well, that doesn't make sense.

But the last Labour government in Westminster had agreed to this.

Well, I don't know about that, but all that money that was spent,

they could have gone to Westminster yesterday,

they didn't have to go up there last week.

And they didn't have to have all these people at the funeral today.

Were you one of the ones who stayed away from the Chamber?

Yes, of course I was one of them.

I come from a mining village in West Wales.

What people there think about Margaret Thatcher, I couldn't

repeat it here.

Where do you stand on this split?

I don't think anyone is saying that Margaret Thatcher should be

buried in a pauper's grave or that she doesn't deserve a big

funeral, but did you feel...?

She was a key figure during the late 20th century.

And everyone is saying - the first female prime minister,

but she's the only female prime minister we've had in Britain.

And I think we'd have had the same kind of funeral

if Labour were still in power.

Obviously, Blair and Gordon Brown followed on from her,

as far as policies, to a large extent.

I don't think we will see another funeral like that again,

until the Queen dies. And certainly,

we will never see a funeral like that one for a politician ever again.

But saying that, you can disagree with her policies,

but I admire what she achieved as a woman.

She was chosen to stand in a parliamentary seat

when she was 25 years old.

Even now, that would have been thought of as young for a woman.

And she was just over 50 when she became prime minister. 53.

At that time, it was also quite young.

So I have respect and admiration for that.

As far as being a female politician, of course,

she didn't have a good record on appointing other women.

No. It was clear that she wanted to be... People said she was like the queen bee

and she didn't want other women around her.

But in that clip, Carwyn Jones mentioned the influence

she had on him entering politics because the miners' strike.

And we have a generation of female politicians,

especially in the Labour Party, who have come into politics

because of the miners' strike.

Look at someone like Sian James now, who is an MP.

She would never have become a politician without the miners'

strike and the effect of Thatcher.

Glyn, I'm not sure if you appreciate Margaret Thatcher as a recruiting sergeant

for the Labour Party, but let's take a look at her contribution.

We're drawing to the end of the week since her death.

What do you think will be remembered most of all? The Falklands?

Was that the main thing?

If I had to choose one thing, I think it is

what happened to the unions.

I remember the '70s and during the '70s,

the unions wanted to run and were running the economy.

She had to stop that. Challenging that was very controversial.

Margaret Thatcher did that.

And she was successful and power returned to Westminster.

That's where I want to see the power.

And the Falklands were important too.

There are a number of other things. Being a female prime minister.

I think that was also important.

It gives each party an example, showing it is

possible for a woman in Britain to get to the top of politics.

I think that is important.

Keith, you have told us about the opinions in your local area,

but let me put you on the spot and say,

there are some things that she did, you would not want to reverse.

Glyn mentioned the unions. I'm not talking about the miners' strike.

But things like union leaders elected for life.

Strikes being called without a secret ballot.

Those are changes for the better, aren't they?

I can accept some of that with the unions,

but I can tell you now I was a member of a union that represented

consultants from England and Wales and we went to ACAS to ask for a pay

increase and I remember that because what happened there was that

you had the unions in one room and the employers in another room.

-Proximity talks.

-Proximity talks.

And this person went back and forth from one room to the other

and we said, "We need a pay increase."

"We wouldn't want to do that.

"If we did that, Margaret Thatcher would be in here and have me up against the wall!"

And then about two months later, in London with Kenneth Baker,

who was the education minister at the time.

And as a union, what we wanted was

for each county in England and Wales

to appoint 14 advisors, primary,

secondary, to help the schools. And Kenneth Baker accepted that.

He went to the Cabinet and what did Margaret Thatcher say to him?

"Look, if I agree to what you want, Kenneth, it'll mean all those

"county councils will expect me to pay for it and I'm not doing it."

So that's my experience of dealing with her.

You mention that. Ed Miliband said it too.

At least she was a politician to which ideology was important.

She was a politician who felt that ideas were important.

Politicians like that are pretty thin on the ground these days.

Yes.

When you talk about her influence, I think

it goes further afield than Britain.

I spent some time in Eastern Europe in the '80s.

They worshipped Margaret Thatcher there.

I saw it strange, when I was watching the funeral,

a quick shot of Lech Walesa, the former president of Poland,

at the funeral and of course he created a trade union

and in creating a trade union, that led to the fall of Communism.

And that is her influence, along with privatisation -

the privatisation that took place in Britain took place over quite

a long period of time, but when it moved to Russia,

they privatised everything overnight,

the workers having shares, a poor economy, the workers then selling

their shares to the people who are now oligarchs,

people like Abramovich and Berezovsky, who has died recently.

And it has created a huge inequality in countries like Russia,

directly from following Thatcher's policies.

And if you think of such things, Keith,

it's unusual to have a politician from a country

the size of Britain, 60-odd million people, having that effect.

I think she was lucky, extremely lucky.

She was lucky to win in '83 because of the Falklands, Gorbachev

was in Russia, he wanted to change things.

The troubles in Northern Ireland, both sides

fighting against each other and she could go in there and save it.

So I think she was lucky to last as long as she did.

What did Napoleon say? Give me a lucky general!

We'll move on. Some have described Baroness Thatcher as one of the 20th century's

iconic figures.

But what do we mean when we talk about icons?

Which other politicians would be considered iconic?

The real aim of this election has been very cunningly concealed

in the folds of the Union Jack.

I've been the minister for health longer than any other

minister for health in the history of Great Britain.

The fact is that we have won the greatest victory for the Welsh

language, not only this century, but in centuries.

Where there is discord, may we bring harmony.

Where there is error, may we bring truth.

You turn if you want to.

The lady's not for turning.

Well, do we need to name them all?

Lloyd George, Churchill, Nye Bevan, Gwynfor Evans, Margaret Thatcher.

Elin, what makes an icon? Why do they stand out?

Is it their achievements or something else?

I would say vision

and I think that is what is missing with many politicians nowadays,

they have ideas but they do not have a vision.

And also the will to continue working to ensure their vision

is realised.

A lot of people believe that ideas are enough.

But you need more than that.

And you also need to take people with you in trying to realise

the vision. And that's what those people did,

people like Churchill, Lloyd George, Thatcher.

They took people with them, but with Thatcher, by the end,

she wasn't taking people with her.

She didn't have her Cabinet with her.

And that's what led to her losing the leadership.

But image is important too.

Churchill with the V and the cigar and the hat.

Margaret Thatcher, a woman, but also that helmet of hair.

Lloyd George with his moustache. Gwynfor Evans' way of speaking.

Nye Bevan's unique way of speaking.

There have to be physical and vocal aspects too.

Yes, it's interesting because I'm enough of an anorak to have watched

the 1979 election programme shown on BBC Parliament over the weekend.

And there was a debate on that, back in 1979, about Thatcher's image.

And this was as she was being elected.

And the fact that she had people in to change her image so early on.

That was pioneering.

-And Saatchi, even then.

-Yes. It was pioneering at the time.

We take it for granted now. But she had to change her voice.

They thought that a female leader couldn't have a high voice.

So she had to learn how to lower it.

And that is something everyone knows about now.

Glyn, what makes an icon, in your opinion?

I'm certain you'd agree that Margaret Thatcher is an icon.

But is it...the willingness to take risks?

If we think of all those politicians,

they were all prepared to take risks.

Well, there needs to be an opportunity.

There needs to be some sort of challenge to do

something that is a risk. They had to take risks.

Lloyd George took risks, so did Churchill,

and I think Atlee took risks.

I think Attlee was also an icon.

And Margaret Thatcher. They had to do things...

Mrs Thatcher with the Falklands,

a lot of people were against her doing that.

Dealing with the unions,

a lot of people in Wales opposed what she wanted to do.

There needs to be an opportunity,

something that needs to be done, with people against it.

So then a person needs to be strong. But each time, what happens...

People will turn against Margaret Thatcher.

The party turned against Lloyd George.

Sometimes they turned against Churchill.

Churchill lost a general election. That's what happens.

If you go in and do something, you don't

go in to try and be popular, you want them to change things

and I think that's what's most important in creating an icon.

I think Margaret Thatcher will be an icon in the long run,

but it's a little too early. We will need to look back.

And I think she will be a great icon.

Keith, what makes an icon, in your opinion?

For me, it's what people do, maybe not their image.

The person you didn't include earlier,

who I thought changed things was Clement Attlee.

I didn't ask you to name someone and as you've named him...

Also with Clement Attlee,

unlike many politicians today who come through the system.

Clement Attlee was a barrister at one time.

And he went to work in social services.

At the end of the Second World War,

he was the right person to be prime minister because he knew what people

wanted and he ensured that we had a new system in the country and

he was responsible, I would say, for things like the health service.

I accept what you're saying, as far as change,

but was he an icon in the sense that with the others their voices would be

enough, you could take their pictures onto the street

-and people would know them.

-Yes, I accept that.

If you want me to name two others from the last century, and talking

of risk takers, it would be Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.

They took huge risks. And one was assassinated.

Icons, suggestions, from Britain or further afield?

I would agree with Nelson Mandela

because he clearly had a huge vision.

And continued over many years.

But for me, with my background,

I would put Gorbachev up there as an icon.

Because his ideology, Perestroika, Glasnost,

it transformed the Communist system.

No, he wasn't acknowledged in the Soviet Union,

but he was outside the Soviet Union.

He was iconic.

I think today, if you showed his photo,

people would remember who he was.

A prophet not recognised in his own land.

Glyn, would you like to suggest another icon?

I was thinking of saying Boris Johnson,

but that is something for the future!

Well, I mean, I admire Gorbachev.

I don't know what people in the future will think,

but looking at Margaret Thatcher now and what she did.

I think the work that Margaret Thatcher did with Ronald Reagan

and Gorbachev, that is

the reason why people right across the world look to Britain today.

The work with the pair of them and the way they changed the world.

I think that will be more important in the future, than anything else.

Glyn Davies, thank you. And thank you, all three.

That's all for this week.

Join me on Friday afternoon for O'r Bae on Radio Cymru.

But for now, thanks for watching and good evening.