24/04/2013 CF99

Hello and welcome to CF99, live from the National Assembly in Cardiff Bay.

On tonight's programme, the Treasury discusses the future of devolution.

Questions over the future of the pound in Scotland

and taxes in Cardiff.

Unless you have those powers,

it becomes very difficult for Wales to deal with,

if you like, the long-term effect of the economic situation we face.

From talking to striking.

As some argue for the first general strike since 1926,

what is the most effective tactic for the unions?

We're stating our opposition to some policies,

but also using influence as far as we can to offer new ideas.

Well, I'm pleased to say that Anna Brychan from the NAHT joins us

in the studio,

along with Aled Robert, North Wales Assembly Member for the Lib Dems, and

the member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, Paul Davies of the Conservatives.

Welcome to you all.

Well, it's been a busy week for Danny Alexander,

the Lib Dem deputy to George Osborne in the Treasury.

He was in Glasgow yesterday to challenge SNP plans to keep

the pound in an independent Scotland.

Two days earlier, he was in Cardiff, discussing devolving tax powers.

He insisted that action was needed, but does everyone agree?

Tomos Livingstone visited Dyffryn Gardens in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Which path should devolution take next?

The Welsh Government spends billions each year,

but they do not have tax raising powers.

We have reached a crossways, says the UK Government.

It's time to take a more accountable and democratic path.

An independent commission has published a map suggesting

the way forward.

The Silk Commission says that giving the Welsh Government powers to

vary income tax levels is the answer.

Along with transferring powers for a number of minor taxes too.

The Lib Dems in the UK Cabinet are keen to go ahead.

We need a new model of devolution for Wales.

A model in which additional responsibility for raising

revenues strengthens accountability too.

A model in which significant income tax powers unlock borrowing

powers for Wales too.

We're still working through our response to the

Silk Commission with the Welsh Government.

But I will not allow a response to Silk that doesn't meet those

aspirations.

So who is standing in the way?

Is it possible that the other side of the coalition,

the Conservatives, are happier with a more relaxed journey?

If the dramatic changes,

which include organising a referendum, are to happen before

the next general election, everyone needs to be urged to take action.

I think the biggest problem we are facing is the fact that

Scotland is not going to stand still.

Whatever happens with the referendum on independence,

Scotland will have significant powers

and that will include powers on taxes

and then Wales would be the only country within the UK,

and of course the only country in Europe too,

where there is a process of devolution but no tax powers.

So is the Labour Party the problem? They are in power in Cardiff Bay

but uncertain at Westminster over the direction of devolution.

In the past, Carwyn Jones has put more emphasis on reforming

the grant the Welsh Government receives,

but now the First Minister supports the devolution of income tax powers,

as long as a referendum is held first of all.

But he acknowledges that the party's MPs have different feelings.

What is very important for us in the Labour Party

is that we are certain that Wales will not be at a disadvantage.

That is what is important is

if there is any suggestion of the devolution of taxes,

for example, and in particular income tax, there should be a

referendum to hear the voice of the people of Wales, the Barnett Formula

should be reformed and we should be certain that it is far for Wales

and does not put Wales at a disadvantage.

The key decisions will be made behind closed doors.

Some kind of agreement or concession is expected over the coming weeks.

One option being discussed at Westminster is to wait

and include ideas in the parties' manifestos,

maybe missing out on a referendum altogether.

But it's possible that things will become clearer after next

month's Queen's speech, listing the UK Government's priorities.

So was Danny Alexander reminding everyone that the clock is

ticking or are some people fed up of the wandering, looking ahead

to a period of rest before devolution takes its next step?

Dyffryn Gardens looking wonderful in the rain.

Paul, this is a dialogue,

so I don't want to portray it as a situation with splits within

parties, but do you get the feeling that different factions within

the parties, different parties, different governments,

-are reaching some sort of consensus?

-I think so.

And here in the Assembly, of course,

the parties have all made it pretty clear that they accept

the recommendations of the Silk Commission,

so I want to see this going ahead as soon as possible.

I think what is important now is that the Welsh Government has

responsibility to raise some taxes

because we hear these constant excuses from the Government.

To me, it makes no sense that the Welsh Government

receives around £15 billion a year from the UK Government with

no responsibility for raising any of that money

because I think it is now important that there is accountability,

as far as the Welsh Government.

Do you think that David Jones, the Welsh Secretary,

is as enthusiastic as you and Danny Alexander?

Well, of course you will have different opinions regarding

some powers, but I think that everyone is on the right track

and we have all accepted

the recommendations of the Silk Commission and we will

see what the response is from the UK Government now in the coming weeks.

You must be happy with what Danny Alexander said, Aled,

but are you certain that Danny Alexander's words will be realised,

remembering that there are different viewpoints within the Cabinet?

We need to discuss matters, of course, but as Paul said, there is

unanimity within Wales regarding the way forward and also it was

expected that measures would be introduced within this parliament.

We're not sure right now if it will be included in the Queen's

speech on the 8th of May, but...

If it is not, it is unlikely to be within this parliament, I'd say.

-Two years until the next general election.

-Yes.

I think that we must move forward, but I would not say it is impossible

to move ahead within this parliament

if there is nothing on the 8th.

It will be more difficult and I think, from what I have heard,

steps forward are being taken.

But time will tell.

Anna, I'm not asking you to predict anything - you don't have the links

these two have, but to what extent do you think the process is maybe

a more important step for the Assembly than the last referendum?

That the question Paul raises regarding responsibility,

-accountability, is key?

-Yes, it is key.

And it is interesting that we are already on our third settlement

since 1999 regarding how we go about things.

And what is striking is that we now have the

experience of legislating

and we have all played a small part in that process,

or a large part of that process, that the

parties in the Assembly are all of the opinion that we need to

move forward to ensure the process is as strong as it can be.

And I accept this argument regarding accountability.

It is a strange situation, as I understand it,

community councils have more money raising powers than the Assembly.

I'm not sure everyone realises that.

And that then affects the government's

accountability in Cardiff Bay and people would accept that argument.

There is no-one from the Labour Party here,

so I don't want to give you too much of a free hit,

but it makes it very easy for a government of any colour here

to blame the Westminster Government for things.

Yes, maybe it does.

Some of the debates in the Senedd are not always that much fun

to watch for that reason,

but it's not only the Labour Party who are to blame for that.

I think if we were able to move

forward from that, it would benefit the public debates we have in Wales.

The debate over Wales, of course, is not as important to the

UK Government as the debate over Scotland.

There, we're talking about changing national boundaries,

the end of the Kingdom, if you like.

To what extent, Paul,

do you believe that people like David Cameron are saying to themselves -

look, we need to be seen to be generous, giving Wales what it wants,

to show people in Scotland that they are willing to do something?

If independence is turned down that they will be generous?

It doesn't benefit the UK Government to be difficult regarding

devolution right now.

No, and I understand that

and I think that the public in general understands that.

It is a situation that can cause

tensions between the UK Government and Scotland.

But what is important here is, and I am confident that

when the referendum is held next year that the people of Scotland

will want to remain within the UK, and that is what is important.

Carwyn Jones has called for a constitutional convention,

David Cameron has more or less agreed,

but says that it should come after the Scottish referendum,

if Scotland votes to remain within the UK.

Would such a convention be able to reach a relatively permanent

settlement, Aled? I must say, I'm a political anorak.

I've been covering this story since the '79 referendum.

And I'm starting to get bored!

How long did they take to write the US Constitution? A week? A year?

I don't know. But they didn't take decades.

I think the situation in Britain is very complicated

because of the size of England compared to the other countries.

And until we know exactly what the people of Scotland think,

it's hard to know how things will move forward.

My party has of course always stood for some

kind of self-governance within the UK.

But of course, there are difficult matters

because of the size of England.

But I don't personally see it being a simple process.

Do you foresee any permanent settlement in the near future?

It doesn't look very likely at the moment.

But if the US Constitution was written in a week,

some aspects of that, regarding gun control and so on, they still

cause problems now, so maybe they should have taken longer over it.

Paul.

I think it is important that we see a constitutional

settlement across the UK

and that it is balanced because unfortunately

we have in Wales a form of devolution,

we have something different in Scotland and Northern Ireland

and of course there is nothing in England

and that is why I believe we must have this debate to

ensure that there is a balanced constitution across the UK.

And that is what I am urging my party to do,

to have this debate, and I have said it before,

if I was a Conservative MP in England, more than likely,

I would be campaigning for an English parliament because

I want to see parliaments across the UK and to have that balance.

Thank you. Well, things are not

good between the English Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and the nurses.

At the beginning of the week, the RCN called one of his policies "stupid".

Well, he served a political volley back in their direction.

The matter was an English only policy,

so we won't go after that, but it is another example of an

increasingly harsh attitude from the unions towards the coalition,

with some union leaders even considering calling

for a general strike.

But how should unions deal with governments?

Should they be cooperating

and charming each other or is fighting the best option?

Anna Brychan, one of our guests this evening,

explains the path her union is trying to follow in the world of education.

No ifs, no buts, no pension cuts!

When NAHT members, heads and deputies in our schools,

went on strike for the first time in our history, it was over pensions.

And proposed changes to pensions.

And that was a Westminster policy.

And the government in Cardiff

and Assembly Members in Cardiff did tend to support the unions in this.

And so, it was a matter of holding talks with two governments.

Our starting point as a union each time is to represent

the professional opinion of our members.

They are heads in our schools,

they have vital expertise that they can offer to the

work of forming education policies that affect our schools in Wales.

That is our starting point.

We lobby the government, suggesting policy changes, we also

suggest ways in which the government can present and introduce its ideas.

We're trying to create and sustain a professional relationship in that.

In the long-term, of course,

this is a government that has been elected to do the work

and we can't stop them from doing things,

just by saying that they are taking the wrong steps.

That is democracy.

Sometimes we reach a point where we realise that we are not going

to reach an agreement, that we cannot influence or change matters,

and if that then leads to a decision that we cannot agree to,

that we think is truly damaging for our schools, then the decision

comes to make the matter public, to explain to the public and to parents

why we disagree so strongly regarding some aspects of policy.

And I also think that politicians realise, or I hope that they

do, that from the standpoint of confidence and faith,

the public have more confidence in our teachers

and our heads than they do in politicians.

And that is also an important consideration in moving forward

and stating our opposition to some policies,

but also using influence as much as we can to put forward new ideas

and try to maintain a constructive relationship each time.

We do not always succeed,

but sometimes we have to take further steps.

-Anna Brychan, thank you for being our correspondent!

-You're welcome!

A new experience for me!

I take it that heads would not join a general strike.

As I said, we have only been on strike once in our history,

which is 115 years, so we do not take strike action lightly.

Talks over a general strike, as the footage at the top of the programme

suggested, what is going through our minds is the general strike of 1926.

I doubt we would see something like that again.

It would be a day of action. A day of coordinated strikes.

-Yes.

-Aled, when we discussed the death of Mrs Thatcher last week,

it was interesting that one thing that she did that most people

agreed with was the changes she introduced to the unions -

insisting on a vote before a strike, a secret ballot,

electing for specific periods and so on,

so are you saddened to see Boris Johnson for example

saying that he wants to take the fight to the unions?

The unions aren't what they were during Margaret Thatcher's time.

No, the unions still have a role to play in representing

their members' interests.

And I think it is important that we defend those rights.

But there is a step further, if unions just create political

situations against a government elected democratically.

The problem there is the boundary.

The government makes decisions, political decisions,

because of the state of the economy, they are political decisions,

but the effects on individuals...

It affects their salaries and working conditions.

So what is a political decision for a government is

a matter for union members.

Yes, but I think that most of the population now

understand that the country is in a very difficult economic situation.

And as a result, they have to take steps to deal with the deficit.

But I don't think that it is beneficial for ministers to

attack unions.

We need a constructive relationship and I don't think what

we have heard this past fortnight helps either side.

On Radio Cymru today, Paul, Guto Bebb, the member for Aberconwy,

attacked what he called the comfortable services -

the public services. Do those kind of words help?

Well, what is important at the end of the day is that there is a

positive relationship between the unions and any government.

And I think that on the whole that is what is happening.

When I was the Conservative spokesperson here for education,

I has a very good relationship with Anna and her union.

And that is what is important - that unions

and governments sit down together to discuss matters.

Of course, there will be disagreement on matters

and policies, but while people are talking, that is what is important.

You said earlier, picking up on your point on Margaret Thatcher,

that people did not oppose what she did - well, there was

opposition at the time.

You had people like Arthur Scargill and others.

But I think Margaret Thatcher won the argument

and I think that the Conservative Party won the argument.

And no-one now, not even the unions,

say that we should return to those times.

So why are some politicians, such as Boris Johnson,

maybe Guto Bebb, returning to the rhetoric of that time?

I'm not sure that they want to return to that time.

No, but the type of language and rhetoric that is being used.

They want to make the point and warn the unions

and others that we are facing difficult financial situations

and that we must deal with it.

Also, it is important to understand now that a percentage of the workers

within the comfortable services, to use that phrase,

is far smaller than it was even ten years ago.

And so there are clear questions regarding

whether the unions have the power to carry out a general strike.

Well, I would say, Anna, that the unions would have the power to

cause a lot of inconvenience for a lot of people.

If people walked out of leisure centres and so on,

that does cause inconvenience, but it does not seem to me that the

traditional strike exists, where people walked out and stayed out.

For weeks, for months. For over a year, three years even.

That does not happen. Lose a day's pay, maybe an afternoon.

No, we will not see a return to that kind of strike action,

but as far as rhetoric, I think that it is dangerous.

It creates a scenario that I do not believe is the right scenario.

And our members in England, in particular,

have been concerned about this,

that headteachers are being urged to take up a fight against the unions

representing teachers up against a government that wants an argument.

Michael Gove, is England's Leighton Andrews. He likes a fight, it seems.

Ooh!

I don't know what either would think about that! You'll have to ask them!

Ask Leighton Andrews next time he's on the programme.

But I think it's a mistake to try and create a public

portrait of that kind and to bring back the images of the '80s.

We don't live in that world any more.

And I think it is a mistake

and it is misleading to suggest otherwise to the public.

Thank you. That is it for another week.

Thanks to my guests and thank you for watching.

We're back at the same time next week. Until then, good evening.