01/05/2013 CF99


01/05/2013

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Transcript


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Good evening and welcome to CF99,

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live from the Assembly in Cardiff Bay.

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On the programme tonight:

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As we approach local elections on Anglesey and parts of England,

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we ask what's at stake?

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Welsh Lions will be leading the team out onto the rugby pitch

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but is Scotland the key player in the constitutional game?

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And we'll ask this man

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whether our politicians make enough use of comedy.

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Gary Slaymaker will join us in a moment but joining me

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here is Richard Wyn Jones from the Wales Governance Centre

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at Cardiff University and the political commentator, Gareth Hughes.

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Welcome, both.

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Tomorrow, the people of Anglesey get a chance to elect new

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councillors following a troubled time in the island's political history.

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This is the only part of Wales to vote tomorrow,

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though there are by-elections in several parts of England.

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Here's our political editor Betsan Powys

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with a summery of the battle being played out on the island.

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Anglesey. Famous for its bridges, port and its power station.

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But over the last few years, its headlines have made painful reading

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as a result of its political problems.

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Those problems were so bad that the minister in Cardiff,

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his patience exhausted, sent a crew of commissioners to oversee things.

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And they wouldn't leave until the new minister was satisfied

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that the council was being run as it should.

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The independents make the point that things have improved recently

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under their own leadership but it's clear that tomorrow's election

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is an opportunity for the political parties to make their mark.

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All five parties promise to offer disciplined political

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leadership to the council.

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The four main parties and UKIP are eager to slacken the grip

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of the independents and gain ground on Anglesey.

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So what are the hot topics on the doorstep?

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The economy, work, the need for job creation for young

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people in particular, investment in roads, libraries and post offices.

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But the message on all the doorsteps is change.

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The appetite not to turn back the clock

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but to open a new chapter on the history of Anglesey.

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So Anglesey, the mother of Wales,

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but in the past the naughty little child of Welsh local government.

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To what extent has that already changed?

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What effect will the new electoral system have tomorrow?

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How brave will the people of Anglesey be with their second

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and third votes? How much change will we see in reality?

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From Mon over to Vaughan. Discuss.

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Betsan Powys.

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As you're from Anglesey we'll begin with you, Richard.

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In one sense, Carl Sargeant can be fairly satisfied

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that his scheme has worked in the sense that

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he's got rid of these undisputed elections,

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ensuring that the parties nominate candidates. That's succeeded.

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Yes, and we must acknowledge that.

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There's been a real problem with councillors on Anglesey.

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Certainly nobody on Anglesey denies that.

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And at least there's an opportunity to set up a new structure

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and a discussion on policy

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so know what people stand for before they're elected,

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and they know what party they're a member of before they're elected.

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There's a tradition of politicians

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becoming members of after being elected.

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Probably the only place in the world where that happens.

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So there has been a change.

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I don't want to be negative but there's a problem

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with local government structure in Wales.

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There are far too many small units

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and some of the key problems on Anglesey will remain as a result, unfortunately.

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So Gareth, I must ask the question,

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are the independents going to be a rare breed come Friday?

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The debate is going to change.

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The debate will move from the council chamber over to the political parties.

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And we know what that's like behind-the-scenes.

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I don't know if this is imbued with new democratic significance.

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I don't really see that myself.

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I've got lots of experience of political parties

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and you never know what on earth is going on!

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So is that a good thing or a bad thing?

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There has been a big problem with councillors being elected in uncontested elections.

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At least there is competition this time.

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I think everybody has to welcome that change.

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But of course, we don't know the result. It's hard to know.

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There are so many parties and possible factors,

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maybe there won't be a sensible majority within the council.

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That's interesting, isn't it?

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Gareth, it's interesting that Carl Sargeant hasn't pulled out the commissioners from the island.

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He clearly wants to see a Cabinet elected with a governing majority and a programme of government.

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That's what we're lacking, of course.

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There are parties there, how are they going to work together?

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Will Plaid Cymru and Labour, the two largest parties,

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I would have thought, after tomorrow,

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are they able to co-operate?

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They have worked together before on the island

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but Labour Party members were thrown out at the time.

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John Chorlton and others, there.

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So I don't know if that will be something that's going to happen

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because the Labour Party is very conservative when it comes to coalition.

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Let's cast an eye over the other side of Offa's Dyke.

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UKIP has received a lot of attention.

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One opinion poll, in particular, has received a lot of attention.

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I believe people have misinterpreted that

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because it measured votes just in rural parts of the country.

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People saw it as a bad thing that Labour were on an even footing

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with the Conservatives.

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That is seen as a good thing in Tory areas, Richard.

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What can we read from that?

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You know, the big story will be the UKIP performance,

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whether it be bad or good.

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There is so much pressure on that result, now.

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But in terms of the Conservatives and the Labour Party,

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because the interesting thing in the North of England

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is that now the Liberal Democrats have fallen behind,

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where is the opposition to Labour in Labour strongholds?

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And I think UKIP will do moderately well to very well

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in completely unexpected areas

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just because there is no other challenge to the Labour Party.

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So I think the UKIP story could be interesting on several levels.

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I think this is a new phenomenon on in the United Kingdom.

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You hear about countries like France

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where there are movements they call pugilist,

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populist right-wing movements.

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We see it in the US as well.

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It isn't something we've seen in the United Kingdom.

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No, and I think it will be interesting,

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as we were saying before, if you look at the results in Wales last time,

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UKIP were behind the BNP when you looked at parties in Wales.

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The BNP, when you looked at the parties in Wales,

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in every place the BNP stood, UKIP trailed behind.

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It shows that there is an extreme right-wing vote.

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UKIP have gone far beyond the field of the National front,

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the BNP or League of Empire Loyalists or whoever.

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I am spending time at the moment, writing a big piece on UKIP.

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One of the interesting things about them is in terms of the identity

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of the people who vote for them, it is English people who vote for them, not Britons.

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Even though it's to do with the Union Jack.

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Just saying this is an extreme right-wing movement is too simplistic.

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There's a wave of discontent in England and they will surf it.

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It is a very, very English party in terms of identity.

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In Wales, it is more British but in England, it is an English party.

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Yes, interesting. We must move on, friends.

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In a letter to the chancellor George Osborne this week,

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the first Minister of Wales says that devolving financial powers

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to Wales could influence the independence debate in Scotland.

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What is the significance of this latest development in the constitutional game?

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James Williams turns to the playing fields to analyse the strategy.

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From the political fields in Cardiff Bay, Westminster and beyond,

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find news on analysis on CF99.

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In sport, the big news is that the Lions coach

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Warren Gatland has announced the squad for the tour of Australia.

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The big challenge is to ensure the players from all four teams

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all push in the same direction.

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But politically speaking,

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there's not much cooperation between members of the United Kingdom.

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The future of Britain is uncertain

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as Scotland threatens to leave the team altogether.

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Welsh captain Carwyn Jones wants to keep the squad together.

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He sent a letter to the chancellor George Osborne to say

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he should action the Silk Commission recommendations on the future

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of devolution to set up a fair funding system for Wales,

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because that would show that devolution can work to the benefit of the union.

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Failing to do so, he says, would be handing over the momentum to the leader of the SNP, Alex Salmond,

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and those campaigning in favour of Scottish independence.

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The thing is that the United Kingdom Government says that

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Scotland would be handed more powers after a referendum.

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In order to show there's goodwill, it's important that they can say, "look what's happened in Wales".

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There hasn't been a referendum there but despite that,

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further powers have been handed to the Assembly in Wales

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so you can trust us after the referendum.

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I obviously want to make sure that Scotland

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stays in the United Kingdom.

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The concern for the Lions is that they would be too much

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Welsh influence in the squad but constitutionally speaking,

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is there a threat that Scotland is dictating the terms?

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There is a danger of that and say we must make sure that Welsh interests

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are considered by the United Kingdom Government.

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Like the Lions, who haven't won a test series since 1997,

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there is a point to prove.

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And for supporters of the union, they need to show that devolution

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and not independence is the best model for the countries of the UK.

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James Williams.

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Gareth, what do you make of this tactic from Carwyn Jones?

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I don't think it's going to influence

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what is going on in Scotland at all.

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The debate will wage on in Scotland

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and Richard has a better knowledge of that than me.

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But I'm not sure that was Carwyn's reason for writing the letter.

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He wants to influence Westminster to give us these powers. Why?

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He wouldn't have a hope of receiving those powers

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if Labour was elected after the next general election

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because the majority of the Labour Party in the House of Commons

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are opposed to giving further powers to this place.

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Owen Smith has gone around saying that he doesn't want

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tax-raising powers in Wales at all.

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So that is Carwyn Jones's tactic, to make sure that is

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out of the way before a Labour government gets in at Westminster.

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That's an extraordinary thing to say, for someone who knows the Labour Party.

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-Do you agree?

-I hadn't considered that angle at all.

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I saw it as a strike across the bows to David Jones.

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We've had a couple of interesting weekends where the Liberal Democrats conference was held,

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where Danny Alexander made a very, very, very strong statement

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in favour of implementing Silk Commission guidelines in full.

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Then the following weekend,

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the Home Secretary didn't mention it,

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literally didn't mention it, in his speech.

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I think that's quite revealing that he isn't eager to devolve more power to this place.

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So I saw it in terms of the internal battle within the London coalition,

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which is certainly going on,

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to try and strengthen the Liberal Democrat arm of the coalition.

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But isn't there something a bit

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- and I'm trying to choose my words carefully, here -

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something a bit precocious, perhaps, to suggest that Westminster

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Government decisions over the Silk Commission

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recommendations on funding for Wales

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will have a massive influence on the result of the Scottish referendum?

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I'd go further to say there is no reason in the assumption

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that catching up with Scotland now, perhaps, will mean that Scottish people will say,

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"We don't need independence because Wales has now caught up with us."

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I just don't see that.

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The debate on the future of Scotland is a completely different one

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and nobody in Scotland is taking any notice of what's going on in Wales.

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What is even stranger is that today,

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after saying he wants to implement the Silk recommendations in full,

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now he says, "Look, boys. We want to reform Barnett."

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Reforming Barnett could mean a lot of things but quite literally,

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it means taking lots of money out of Scotland.

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The best way to ensure Scotland votes Yes

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is to reform the Barnett formula

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but it seems today that's what Carwyn Jones is calling for.

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That is very strange.

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But that's why I'm saying it's nothing to do with Scotland.

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It has more to do with Welsh politics

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and Labour Party politics in Wales.

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An issue for Welsh MPs and Assembly members.

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And there is a schism between them.

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And that is the point of that letter.

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I know that in this place,

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they have been complaining about what's been going on

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with the Labour Party in England,

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about Welsh MPs going out and saying they don't want Barnett.

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Carwyn Jones knows that and that was his tactic.

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Is there an aspect, here, that perhaps there are people here

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and on opposition benches as well as in government,

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that believe London isn't receiving the message loud and clear,

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because there are Welsh politicians in England saying, "Don't listen to the Assembly.

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"They don't really want these things. They are just saying it."

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Certainly, that's happening. There is no doubt about that.

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And there are people that say things publicly in this place

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and then say slightly different things in different circles.

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And so it isn't unreasonable for some of these Welsh politicians

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to go around in London and say,

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"They're not serious about this, boys."

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Have we reached a situation where the Westminster Government must now decide who to listen to?

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They have promised a decision before the end of spring.

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I think spring technically lasts until 20th June.

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I only learned that today. But they need to decide soon.

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The commission, now they are talking about tax-raising powers

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and I think that is something the Conservatives fundamentally want.

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They want to hand responsibility to this place for its own spending.

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I don't think it would be difficult for David Jones to bite his tongue and to see this through.

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Just briefly, I was at a meeting with Ruth Davidson,

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the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, last weekend,

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and she was arguing in favour of devolving taxes

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from a right-wing perspective

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but the Welsh Conservatives in the audience,

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for them it was a totally alien prospect.

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Thank you.

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We all know that politics is a serious business

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but it's important for us all to smile now and again.

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Barack Obama has succeeded in doing that in a video

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where he pretends to play Daniel Day Lewis playing Barack Obama.

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Was it hard playing Obama?

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I'll be honest. Yeah, it was.

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This accident took a while.

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Hello, Ohio. Hello, Ohio! I love you back.

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Look. Look. Let me be clear about this.

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'The cosmetics were challenging.

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'You wouldn't believe how long it takes to put these ears on.'

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I don't know how he walks around with these things.

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The hardest part? Trying to understand his motivations.

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Why did he pursue health care first? What makes him tick?

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Why doesn't he get mad? If I were him, I'd be mad all the time.

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But I'm not him. I'm Daniel Day Lewis.

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Well, how effective is comedy in politics

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and are there enough laughs in Welsh politics?

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I am joined by entertainer and comedian Gary Slaymaker.

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It's hard to imagine a British politician even attempting something like that.

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Yes. I think this is the domain of the Americans.

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That was part of the Press Association speech that he

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made at the beginning of the week and it was full of humour.

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And it was humour aimed at himself.

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I think the problem is that our politicians overthink things.

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So they can't make fun of themselves.

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But what was interesting,

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and I'm sure he had a team of writers behind it

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and a professional film crew to capture it

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but it does require some degree of natural comedic timing, doesn't it?

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-He clearly has it.

-Yes. That was clear to see in the speech itself.

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Anyone can learn to tell a joke that's timing is innate.

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Barack Obama clearly has it.

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George W Bush, even though I wasn't a fan,

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clearly had it to some degree. He made several of these as well.

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There was just something in his nature.

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I think he knew that he was a buffoon, to say the least

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and of course, the scripts were then written with that in mind.

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I would have thought that the fear for British politicians is that things could go wrong.

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One can think of examples, like Tony Banks calling William Hague,

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"looks like an aborted foetus", I think was one.

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-The disaster that happened when the Liberal Democrats...

-Sarah Teather.

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Yes. Anyone who performs comedy has watched that.

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There was also a clip on Question Time

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when a woman in the audience made a biting quip

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and Sarah Teather didn't realise that it was a joke

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until David Dimbleby had to point it out to her.

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What I say is if you don't understand a joke, don't tell it!

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Because she would just read out these jokes and you could almost see

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the tumbleweed rolling through the studio!

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Why, Richard, do you think, and there are examples of politicians

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using humour, Tony Banks is one of them.

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But it is rare in our politics, isn't it?

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Obama is in a situation where not only is he a great orator

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but the role of president is a bit above politics

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so you got a bit more freedom in that role

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but I've been to party conferences in Wales over the past few weeks

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and I heard just one good joke,

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which was Nick Clegg's joke about Lembit Opik.

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That was the only genuinely funny one.

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The other efforts were truly painful. Lots of mentions of sport.

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I was going to say, more painful than the stuff about Cardiff city

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-and the Swans and the Grand Slam?

-It was awful.

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Those efforts to connect with people were embarrassing.

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There was just one good joke in all of those conferences!

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The problem is they get good scripts but they can't present them well.

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I think that is also lacking in our politics.

0:19:450:19:50

In the chamber here, how many speeches do we hear?

0:19:500:19:53

And half of them can't even read out their questions!

0:19:530:19:56

They aren't going to tell a joke if they can't even read out

0:19:560:20:00

a question on politics, which is their job!

0:20:000:20:04

And yet Gary, there are comedians, plenty of them,

0:20:040:20:09

who make political comments. It stems back to Ben Elton.

0:20:090:20:13

They are almost all left-wing.

0:20:130:20:16

There is a history, especially in Wales, we have a history of satire.

0:20:160:20:19

I fronted a programme on Radio Cymru for five years

0:20:190:20:22

where we just lampooned figures in the news.

0:20:220:20:25

You can go back to Pupur a Halen on Radio Cymru, Pelydr X,

0:20:250:20:30

programs like this.

0:20:300:20:32

It's easier to be on the outside, looking in on these

0:20:320:20:35

targets in government because PR is everything in politics now.

0:20:350:20:40

Image is so important. They can't let go.

0:20:400:20:43

We have the same problem in politics as in sport.

0:20:430:20:46

There are no personalities left.

0:20:460:20:47

Everything is controlled to such an extent that humour is stifled.

0:20:470:20:52

You talk about a lack of personalities.

0:20:520:20:55

What about someone like Boris Johnson,

0:20:550:20:58

who I'm not quite sure if he's making jokes

0:20:580:21:02

or whether he's some kind of performance art in himself.

0:21:020:21:06

Boris is an exception. He is a lovable buffoon.

0:21:060:21:10

A lot of the humour stemming from politics

0:21:100:21:13

comes from the perspective of the absurd.

0:21:130:21:16

Like John Redwood trying to sing the national anthem

0:21:160:21:18

or Boris stuck in a harness at the Olympic Games last year

0:21:180:21:22

or David Cameron being elected Prime Minister.

0:21:220:21:24

It doesn't get more absurd!

0:21:240:21:27

But I think that's what it is.

0:21:270:21:29

When we see these perfect personalities at their worst,

0:21:290:21:32

-that's where the comedy comes from.

-In a way, it's our fault.

0:21:320:21:37

We've just been making fun of Sarah Teather

0:21:370:21:39

for trying to tell a joke and failing.

0:21:390:21:41

The thing is it's easier for them not to take the risk.

0:21:410:21:44

It's easier for them to play it safe

0:21:440:21:46

because if they happen to get it wrong,

0:21:460:21:49

and even comedians get it wrong sometimes, they won't be forgiven.

0:21:490:21:52

We will be there making fun of them on programmes like this, sniggering about it.

0:21:520:21:57

The best jokes happen by accident.

0:21:570:22:00

Maggie Thatcher saying,

0:22:000:22:03

"Every prime minister needs their own Willie".

0:22:030:22:06

I hadn't realised at the time she was talking about Willie Whitelaw!

0:22:060:22:09

Isn't that the problem, Gareth?

0:22:090:22:12

British humour is fairly crude and if you say something that is crude,

0:22:120:22:16

the Daily Mail and the Daily Express will be after you in their usual puritanical way.

0:22:160:22:22

As Richard said, why take the risk?

0:22:220:22:25

Yes but the thing is, what I'm saying is

0:22:250:22:28

they don't take the risk but they remain figures of fun in our world.

0:22:280:22:32

There is comedy in the House of Commons.

0:22:320:22:37

If we look at Dennis Skinner for example,

0:22:370:22:41

you can't get a better comedian than Dennis Skinner

0:22:410:22:44

and when you hear him speak in places like Blackpool,

0:22:440:22:47

he's better than any stand-up, in my opinion.

0:22:470:22:50

But the nature of the House of Commons has changed as well.

0:22:500:22:53

We don't have so many of those kind of skirmishes

0:22:530:22:57

as we had in the early days.

0:22:590:23:03

Gary, you were talking about the tradition of satire in Wales.

0:23:030:23:06

There isn't so much of that around nowadays.

0:23:060:23:10

-Is that because of a lack of characters?

-To some extent.

0:23:100:23:13

At the same time, you can't write comedy

0:23:130:23:15

that rivals what the parties are handing us at the moment.

0:23:150:23:18

Miliband looks as though he was created by Aardman animation company

0:23:180:23:21

in the first place so there isn't much you can do to add to that.

0:23:210:23:24

Of course, the clowns we've got in this coalition,

0:23:240:23:28

it's one mess after another.

0:23:280:23:30

It's hard to write jokes when they do it for you.

0:23:300:23:35

You were talking about some of those programs like Haciwr and so on,

0:23:350:23:39

Spitting Image in English, where are those programs today?

0:23:390:23:43

It's a shame because you only got Mock The Week

0:23:430:23:46

and Have I Got News For You?

0:23:460:23:48

Our political situation is so interesting

0:23:480:23:52

that there should be more satire.

0:23:520:23:54

Thank you very much.

0:23:540:23:56

That's all for tonight. Thank you for watching.

0:23:560:23:58

We'll be back at the same time next week. Join us then.

0:23:580:24:01

For now, from the Assembly in Cardiff Bay, good night.

0:24:010:24:05

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