22/05/2013 CF99

Good evening and welcome to CF99,

the Assembly postcode here in Cardiff Bay.

On tonight's programme: The Assembly's Presiding Officer

calls on the British press to pay more attention to Welsh politicians.

Everyone has some kind of responsibility

but if I was a politician in Wales at the moment, I would start

by looking closer to home and stop with the mudslinging towards London.

And accusations that there is too much finger-pointing and not

enough action from this minister over changes to the welfare state.

I think Huw Lewis is irresponsible and he isn't looking at what we can do in Cardiff but moreover,

he has no ambition for the people of Wales.

Joining us tonight is Lord Dafydd Wigley, former Plaid Cymru leader,

and Westminster Labour frontbencher, MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith.

First to the changes to the benefit system.

The Communities and Tackling Poverty Minister in Cardiff Bay

has been under pressure this week for not doing enough to prepare for the coming changes.

Huw Lewis says the planned government changes

will have a dramatic affect on our communities,

the major change being the decision to combine numerous benefits into one universal payment,

being introduced gradually from this autumn.

But how will he ensure Wales is able to cope with the new system?

Here's James Williams.

There are major changes ahead.

The landscape has already started to change

as some of the plans to reform the welfare state were introduced over the last few weeks.

On a sunny day like today, the stormy debate

over the future of the welfare state feels a long way off,

but the changes are far-reaching.

Some talk of social turmoil, a tsunami of unemployment.

But others dismissed this as rhetoric,

saying the most vulnerable in our society will not miss out.

The Welsh Government says that one in five people in Wales

are dependant on some kind of benefit

and Wales could miss out on £1 billion a year as a result of these changes.

The Government estimates households in Wales will lose on average

four percent of their income,

that is somewhat higher than the United Kingdom average.

The Welsh Government says that the poor will miss out as a result of these changes

and not for the first time,

minister Huw Lewis was blunt in his criticism yesterday.

We are not dealing here with a natural disaster,

having to find resources to help a community recover from a flood or landslip.

This is an entirely man-made situation.

It is the deliberate decision of a government to target

the weakest and most vulnerable members of our society.

That decision did not have to be made.

But the coalition insist it's making a complex and unfair system

fairer and has accused Mr Lewis of scaremongering.

I think Huw Lewis is irresponsible.

He isn't looking at what government can do here in Cardiff

but moreover, he has no ambition for the people of Wales,

he only feels as though the majority of the people in Wales

have no future apart from relying on benefits.

If that is Huw Lewis's ambition for the people of Wales,

I can assure them that's not what we want to see.

We want to see people in Wales getting work and being self-sufficient,

rather than relying on the welfare state, like Huw Lewis believes should be the case.

The Welsh Government was criticised by one of the Assembly committees

yesterday over the way it dealt with changes to council tax changes.

There was too much emphasis on politics to the detriment

of the correct system, in their opinion.

There have also been criticisms that the Government has been

too eager to finger point and slow to offer answers.

It's clear that the Welsh Government had hoped that it could just blame

the London Government and then use that as a weapon in the election.

But I think they've realised that they can't do that for three years.

So they do have a problem

and Huw Lewis addressed the committee the other week,

and in response to one of his own members,

he said that the government strategy was piecemeal.

That's when you react according to the situation.

That is not a strategy. That shows a lack of planning.

In a way, we've had over £100 million extra.

We welcome the extra money.

We welcome the fact they have put in £20 million extra to build more

appropriate one and two-bedroomed housing, which we know we'll be lacking,

But I would say but we need a better strategy.

The Welsh Government has said it has a number of policies

to help the most vulnerable in our society.

"From expanding support for families in our most impoverished areas,

"supporting people through our council tax benefits programme

"to investing £75 million in the Communities First programme."

According to a spokesperson for the Labour Government

it is working on behalf of the people of Wales while Plaid Cymru is once again accepting Tory cuts.

With so many changes still to come, there are fears that the most needy

will need more help before the storm blows over.

Both of you will agree that you are not happy

with all of the changes being introduced.

But Dafydd, do you share the feeling

that the Welsh Government is more than willing

to take advantage of those cuts for political reasons,

rather than finding a way to allay them?

This goes back to the 2011 election.

Labour fought the election for the Assembly, and said on stage

that they would fight to defend Wales from these cuts.

So far, they have not managed to do that.

Perhaps it is impossible, but they were elected on that promise

and now they need a strategy.

A number of Labour Assembly members are criticising their own minister.

Something has to be done.

Something needed to be done 12 or 15 months ago, when we saw this coming.

Gwynedd Council, for the past year, has been saving £800,000

has worked with the CAB and housing committees and so on,

in order to have a strategy in place to deal with this problem.

That hasn't happened at the Assembly and it's the minister's fault.

Nia Griffith, we saw Huw Lewis appear before the committee,

as was indicated earlier,

and it was interesting to see Labour members

being very critical of the Minister.

Is this a sign that perhaps Labour had taken its eye off the ball?

Introducing messages regarding the Conservatives,

with its mind on political matters, rather than thinking about

what it is they can do to reduce some of these issues.

It's important to have an honest discussion

and I'm glad members are speaking up about this issue.

But of course, it is a very difficult situation.

What often happens is that money for disabled and unemployed people

goes straight from the London Government to the individuals.

And as Dafydd said, councils are going out to see the individuals

and it is important to know what their situation is.

What is happening with the government is it's seeing that it will have to cut back

on something else if they want to fill the gap.

For instance with council tax,

the Government has found £20 million in order to help people.

Because in England, the poorest people are paying more council tax.

But that is a perfect example of the criticism from the committee,

that included Labour members,

that said that month after month you were saying,

"Nothing can be done until the figures are released."

Even though councils in England had already operated on the basis

of the projected figures and there wasn't a similar problem in Scotland.

And then the Assembly had to be called back at the last minute

over Christmas to introduce and idea,

when there was terrible uncertainty

for the individuals and councils involved.

They need to see what they are doing with the money

because they have to be certain that there weren't other things

that were more important.

That's the problem they've got.

The Welsh Government has a shortage now because of cut after cut.

And what's happening is they are trying to prioritise

helping the poorest people with initiatives like Flying Start

for young children, along with other programmes.

They've given three quarters of a million pounds to councils

to try to help with the fact that people are losing rent money.

Dafydd.

The truth is the Government here doesn't have money because Wales isn't funded sufficiently.

This is the conclusion to many reports, one after the other.

They say we're £400 million short of the Barnett formula.

With every respect, Nia,

your government had time to put this right.

You had failed to address the issues.

And there isn't a firm commitment now from a funding perspective.

And until we get those essential resources to run services,

there will be pressures like this in Cardiff Bay.

It is true this was not done during the time Labour were in power

but over here, Labour in the Assembly can't do this now?

No. So why did they say they could protect Wales from Tory cuts?

There are tools, when it comes to poverty,

Huw Lewis is grandly known as the and Communities and Tackling Poverty Minister,

but the relevant, important tools are your end of the M4.

They are in Westminster.

People are calling for strategy and so on,

but any action taken here would be on the sidelines?

The strategy is reactive to protect against the cuts taking place.

In the second chamber, we beat the Government I think 70 times in the last year.

On these measures cutting back on social funding,

I think we beat them around 20 times.

That was overturned in the House of Commons,

with a Tory and Liberal Democrat majority.

It's possible to beat the Government if there's the will to do so.

Let's look at what is likely to happen from next autumn, Nia.

You must have already had people coming to your surgeries in Llanelli

telling you they are worried

and that they don't understand what will happen.

How much pain is this likely to cause

in a constituency like yours?

This is very important.

People are suffering, that's the problem.

They are suffering now.

Many more people will suffer in future, when we have the universal credit.

But what Huw Lewis has done is look at the digital programme.

It is very difficult for many people...

..to get a computer or access to a computer

so that they can understand what needs to be done.

They have carried out a pilot now in Manchester.

If they start with us in Wales in the autumn,

many people will want to go and fill it in online

and then many people will find this difficult,

so this is an important step forward but it is very complicated.

Every individual is different. That's the problem.

Dafydd. Give us a prediction. You're experienced in this field.

People have said universal credit is this Government's poll tax,

it will be as unpopular as that and elicit a similar response.

Do you believe that this will be the case or are people exaggerating?

I think the bedroom tax will be compared to the poll tax.

You can see that start to bite at the moment.

All things considered, there are around 30,000 individuals in Gwynedd suffering.

In the Vale of Glamorgan 610 families are in danger

just as a result of this bedroom tax issue.

Of those people, 300 have disabilities.

There isn't enough money to help those with disabilities alone, let alone the rest.

People are suffering.

And this, I believe, is what will undermine the credibility of the current Government.

Thank you both for now.

The fact that you are watching this programme suggests you

are not suffering from the democratic deficit that is being talked about.

Well done you!

The Assembly's Presiding Officer Rosemary Butler believes the Assembly

doesn't get the attention it deserves and democracy is losing out.

She says part of the problem is the failure of the British press

to convey the different system that exists in Wales.

A conference will take place tomorrow in Cardiff Bay

to discuss how best to get more Cardiff Bay politics on TV and in the newspapers.

We asked Guto Harri, Director of Communications at News International,

the publishers of The Sun and The Times, where does the problem lie?

There is a problem in Wales.

The indigenous press isn't always as strong, independent

or as insightful as it could be.

The press over the border in England,

sometimes for vague reasons but otherwise fair reasons,

doesn't take enough notice of the situation in Wales

so that people can form fair and balanced views

based on what they have seen on television or radio.

Outside Wales the story about the Assembly in Cardiff

has to compete with famine in Africa or a damn being built in China.

It has to hold its ground as a story

against many other stories from around the world.

There aren't going to be many stories on the main network

bulletins in England on Assembly business,

and neither should there be.

That's not to say there's no room for improvement.

The main challenge for the Welsh press is to lift their game,

to make its work more gripping and to attract more attention.

If the Welsh public has an interest

in holding their politicians to account,

then they need to watch the programmes that are available

and read the papers that are available.

Politicians struggle to identify with people

and to communicate with people.

That is also true here at Westminster and elsewhere,

but good politicians can do this.

Alex Salmond has managed to do this.

He can convey his vision

and explain the direction he wants to take Scotland in within Scotland.

Strangely enough, as a result of this, because of his clear vision,

because of the clear picture, there is coverage on network programmes.

That's not because the English press favours him over Welsh politicians,

his vision grabs the attention of the newspapers

and he's a better orator.

Boris Johnson gets more attention than just about anyone in politics.

It is the responsibility of Welsh politicians,

rather than complaining about the press

and asking for a kind of obligatory press that people have to tune into,

to sell stories and explain what they're doing.

If they do this and the story is interesting enough,

we'll want to cover it and people will want to watch.

I'm not telling anyone to go out and buy a tie,

or go to M&S and buy a new suit or skirt.

That's not the answer, superficial things like that.

Some people should have a haircut and smarten up a bit.

We need to talk about the proper issues.

We need to grab the attention of so-called normal people.

We need to show them what we're doing,

why it's relevant and why the world would a better or worse place

if this happened or doesn't happen.

It's a key skill.

If we don't try to achieve anything then as a result,

it will be difficult to put that across so that people will have an interest in it.

Everyone has some sort of responsibility.

If I was a politician in Wales I would start by looking much closer

to home and stop with the mudslinging towards London.

Joining Dafydd and Nia now is Marc Evans,

a Communications Consultant with Civitas Cymru.

Marc, who do you blame for this?

Do you, like Guto, blame the politicians here?

I think Guto Harri was trying to get away with the issue there.

I wouldn't award him the point entirely.

The editorial in Holyrood Magazine today said

the press and media in England had

only just started examining issues in Scotland

when Gordon Brown stepped into the debate

and they recently tried to shoehorn in the issues over Europe

and Nigel Farage's visit along with what Gordon Brown has said.

They don't always understand that they are issues for the people of Scotland

and that they should respect the politicians in Scotland.

I think the same can be said of Wales.

If the people of Wales don't see the Welsh politicians

getting due respect, then they will think less of them.

If we're looking at the attention afforded to Scotland,

they're debating a big issue.

They are discussing independence, but what is being talked about here?

Plastic bags and so on.

It doesn't seem as though they are trying to find interesting topics to discuss?

Mr Gove thinks we've hit an issue that's even tripped him up!

It's a large enough issue for him.

The media doesn't seem to have shown that Wales has been taking

a different direction to Westminster for some time.

They haven't respected the fact that Wales can take another route.

It's Guto's right that Assembly members

need to make more of an effort,

the charities and bodies trying to grab their attention

have made a great effort to use all sorts of ways

to grab people's attention

and imagination to contribute to the argument.

We don't want to hear politicians talk without giving people

a chance to respond.

There's a promising future there

as new media is opening up avenues for people to contribute to debates

and respond to politicians.

Dafydd, do you believe that there is too much complaining going on

and the truth is the Welsh media looks at what is happening here

and if people don't want to know about it, then that's that?

The situation in Scotland is different to Wales.

First of all, there are half a dozen Scottish papers

published each morning.

And also, the British papers have a special Scottish edition.

There's much more attention paid there.

It was only in 2011 that Wales was given full legislative powers,

along with the opportunity to introduce programmes

on education and health that truly grab people's attention.

Two years have gone by and we need to take advantage of that now.

But if the people of Wales are unhappy with the coverage Wales gets

in the Daily Mail, The Sun or Daily Mirror,

they don't have to buy the big papers, they could turn to the

Western Mail if they wanted to know about Welsh politics. But they don't.

Yes, that's true, but that says more about the Western Mail or Daily Post

which comes out in the morning in Wales.

But you will find that more papers in Scotland look at the issues within that country,

even Newsnight has a Scottish focus in the second half of the programme,

but here in Cardiff Bay, we need to capture people's attention.

We need people, as individuals and parties,

to work more effectively to reach people's minds

and put forward the ideas that will make a difference to their lives.

Nia, are you concerned about that situation or do you think,

"If people want to find out what is happening they can even follow

"Carmarthenshire's County Council's meetings online?"

The stuff is there if people look for it.

I'm concerned because people will watch the main network programmes,

which is in England,

and they will think these things will happen in Wales.

Because sometimes they say, "In England, these changes..."

but they don't mention that the situation is different in Wales.

When you consider that education and health is different,

and so are issues at local council level,

like planning, for example, is different,

so things can be very complicated.

People are getting the wrong message if they just follow network news.

Politicians can confuse people as well.

A website was launched today

as part of a Labour campaign

to oppose changes to hospitals in Wales,

which is part of the Welsh health service,

but Labour are in power in Wales?

How is the electorate meant to know what on earth is going on?

We all need to look at what's online, as Marc said.

What we need are ways to get Welsh news in front of people.

With the BBC we have BBC Wales and people can switch onto this.

But in many cases, people are not directed towards that.

The other thing is we don't use local papers enough.

Because what's happening is people are buying fewer national papers

but people love to see photographs

of local children dressed up for Saint David's Day, for example,

and if local papers made more of national Welsh news...

..it would help even more.

Marc, if you were contracted to advise here, on how to grab people,

how could you lift the profile of this place?

I wouldn't put all my faith in new media.

Some politicians have already learnt that by speeding up

and shortening their message on the spur of the moment,

that mistakes can be made with new media.

There are better ways of returning to the old ways,

speaking in public in local areas, in their constituencies.

Now you can use new technology to store and broadcast

this to spread this further, more effectively.

Some people are working hard to build up a following

who are interested in what people are saying

and they help to spread the news,

but we still need to have discussions.

Do we need more theatre in this place?

Thinking back to the days when you were in the Assembly with Rod Richards and Alun Michael,

there was plenty of drama in the Chamber.

The place seems very flat now?

There are differences between here and Westminster.

In the House of Commons, there's a possibility,

come the election, there'll be a change in the governing party.

We are in the fourth term here now

and Labour has led the Government every time.

We need the possibility of a change in Government

if people are going to start

to buy into the drama that takes place here.

Do you miss this place? Would you like to be back here,

shouting across the Chamber to Carwyn Jones?

No. I've learnt in my present job not to shout as much as I used to.

I am older and wiser now.

There are times when you feel you would like to be here

in order to put forward new ideas.

There's so much potential for that in Wales

and that is the challenge for every party, to improve that.

Thank you very much to all three of you. That is all for tonight.

There won't be a programme next week,

but join us again on 5th June for another edition of CF99.

Until then, enjoy the sunshine and good evening.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd