15/05/2013 CF99


15/05/2013

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Good evening and welcome to CF99 live from the National Assembly

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in Cardiff Bay.

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On tonight's programme -

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David Cameron had just grown out of his short trousers in the early 90s

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but Europe is still causing concern for his party.

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I am very sceptical of the relationship that we have now.

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We need a referendum and we need a discussion.

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And why does this golden haired boy want to change the Assembly's name?

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I'm joined by former First Minister Rhodri Morgan,

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the Liberal Democrats' head of communications, Myrddin Edwards

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and Bethan Kilfoil, a reporter with RTE from Dublin.

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Welcome to all three of you.

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Later, someone who you have seen on the news, Glyn Davies.

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Back in the early 90s, a mobile phone looked like a brick,

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the age's miracle was a fax.

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And young people used to dance madly to acid house music in fields.

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But some things haven't changed.

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Dafydd Iwan is still threatening to hold his last concert

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and the Tories are still arguing over Europe.

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There was no raves nor Dafydd Iwan for the young Tomos Livingston,

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he was busy swatting constituency statistics in his bedroom!

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Tonight, he looks into the archives to consider whether the 90s arguments

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still ring true today.

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Who remembers the battles and the arguments of 20 years ago?

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We believe in the United Kingdom, and I promise you we will fight

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for the United Kingdom.

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It's possible that even Conservative MPs had forgotten

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who were at the top of the charts or who won the Grand National.

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But one thing that continues to cause debate, Europe.

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Europe is very important for the Conservative Party.

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People believe soundly in Britishness.

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You could argue that some within the Labour Party

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don't believe strongly in Britishness,

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but you also have strong left-wingers who believe strongly

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in Britishness and don't believe in Europe.

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The Maastricht Treaty nearly tore John Major's government apart.

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But it was the image that the Tories spent time

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on a constitutional subject that did the most damage.

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David Cameron was in the background at the time.

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He was working for the Chancellor, Norman Lamont.

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He hoped to change his party's views.

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The backbenchers only quietened for the time being.

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Following the general election,

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they have not been doing anything to keep things quiet.

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The Tories agree that there is a need for a referendum,

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everyone accepts that.

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David Cameron and even Douglas Caswell agrees on that.

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The difference is we have a coalition.

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Half the coalition,

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or the smaller part of it, is not in favour of this.

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The differences between the Liberal Democrats

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and the Conservative Party.

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The Conservative Party is more Euro-sceptic now than in 1992.

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But why is there such an obsession when opinion polls show

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the general public are more interested in other things?

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The Conservative Party is more an Euro-sceptic,

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because there is more evidence by now, 20 years later.

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More evidence that Europe is not working in the way

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the leaders of this country had hoped it would.

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Will there be an escape for David Cameron?

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The Prime Minister hopes there is some electoral advantage from this.

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The Welsh Labour Party says we do not need a referendum at all.

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There is always a case of a negotiating the UK's position

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in the EU and influencing the EU.

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Why would we want to support a referendum which may lead

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to people losing billions of pounds in Wales? It doesn't make sense.

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Some may argue that the political wheel has turned.

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Their party is more united than in John Major's time.

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But will Europe excite the voters in the next election,

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or is it a question from the past?

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Tomos Livingston. Were you longing for those voices

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which you use to report on before?

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It made me feel old. Things haven't changed much, have they?

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The arguments about Europe

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and within the Conservative Party are still there.

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There was a period of fighting over Europe in the early 1990s.

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It happened within the Conservative Party in Westminster.

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Margaret Thatcher came to Brussels to fight her corner.

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We couldn't see it in the European Parliament.

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Margaret Thatcher was a big character,

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but by the time John Major came to power

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most of the battles to a place in Westminster rather than Europe.

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I know that you remember the time well.

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All this argument made John Major look weak.

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He looked like he was being blown in every direction.

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He was a prisoner to his party and the Euro-sceptics within the party.

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It was a government that didn't have a big majority.

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The European Commission realised he did have problems

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and that he had to perform and say certain things

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because of the situation.

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He was acting one way in Brussels and in the European Union

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and then acting in a different way when they went back to Britain.

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He was a prisoner of his own circumstances.

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Can you understand, talking to Conservatives that time

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and people in Europe, do people in Brussels

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understand why this Euro-sceptic wave has continued

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when it seemed to have disappeared in other countries?

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Opinion polls show there has been an increase in Euroscepticism

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in a number of countries.

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Ireland has benefited a lot from Europe over the years,

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but the people of Ireland have voted against European agreements.

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They voted against the Nice and Lisbon Treaty is in recent years.

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They have voted against them twice.

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There are strong feelings in a lot of countries, not just Britain,

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but the feelings are much stronger in Britain.

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We have much stronger Euro-sceptics in Britain.

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How do you think Brussels will react

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when it hears this promise of a referendum?

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They are dealing with Cyprus and Spain and Portugal

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and the economic situation there.

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Are there some that will have had enough of Britain?

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That is the general feeling.

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Britain has caused a great deal of problems for Europe in the past.

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You have a strong relationship between France and Germany,

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and you have Britain on the sidelines once again.

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That is the feeling.

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The Conservatives once again fighting over Europe.

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Thank you for joining us.

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If I can turn to you, Rhodri Morgan,

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you were a representative of the European community,

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as it was known at the time.

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Why do you believe this Euroscepticism

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has continued with the Conservatives, mostly in the right-wing sector,

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but it appears to be going throughout?

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We saw this at its worst during the debate on the Maastricht Treaty.

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There was a lot of physical battles in those days.

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Rod Richard had to push Walter Sweeney to vote with him,

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but then I had to push Rod Richards out of the way.

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I thought I had a right to do that

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because I lived in Walter Sweeney's constituency at the time.

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Those were the old days, 20 years ago.

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Things have become much worse.

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The psychology of the backbenchers has changed.

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Around 50 rebels were involved in 1993,

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now there are over a hundred.

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I remember the vote on the referendum on the measure.

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They were people who wanted a referendum now not in five years.

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There were 89 rebels two years ago.

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I spoke to them later and they said

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that was the most important rebellion since the Norway vote

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which led to Winston Churchill coming in as Prime Minister.

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There were 40 rebels that time.

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It was enough. It was enough because it caused the fall

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of Neville Chamberlain's government.

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But David Cameron has yielded ground to these rebels.

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Yes, but you are much more prepared to rebel against the whip now

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than people were before.

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The psychology now tells you that rebellion is more popular.

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I was under the impression that this was to do with

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the constituency boundaries changing,

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so it is not going to happen now,

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but people want to prove that they are better MPs.

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But that isn't going to happen now but the psychology has changed.

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The more Euro-sceptic you are, the more popular you are,

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and the more likely you are to be chosen as their representative.

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Glyn Davies, we heard you on the news programme earlier

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saying you didn't understand why this was happening.

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David Cameron has given these people what they want,

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but 130 of them have gone through this again.

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What's odd is that all these 130 MPs

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just want what we I want and what David Cameron wants.

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The message will be going to the European Union

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that Cameron wishes to save the relationship between us and the EU.

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But I'm not sure what was behind it.

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How much damage will this do for the party?

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If people believe the party is split

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then people will not have any faith in the party?

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Everyone knows that I'm not happy about what has happened.

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I didn't want to see an amendment on the Queen's Speech.

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I didn't think it was something we should do as Conservatives.

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But this has happened.

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More people voted in favour of the amendment than I expected.

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It is a strong message, but I am not sure what the message is.

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It is a message for the European Union.

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We all want to have this referendum.

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Perhaps the message was if the Conservatives

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believed they will win a majority,

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they would accept David Cameron's word.

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But a significant amount believes there will be

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another hung parliament and this vote is to tell David Cameron

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to realise that this is the red line that he must not yield on?

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Personally, this shows weak leadership in David Cameron.

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He has given in on this far too easily.

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What are they going to ask for next?

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The Conservatives work better when they work in a pack

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and they are faithful to the party.

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Things are looking very shambolic at the moment.

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I was watching Prime Minister's Questions yesterday,

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Nick Clegg had an opportunity to differentiate and show

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what the Liberal Democrats believed.

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As Liberal Democrats, we are happy.

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Labour seem to be happy arguing with the Conservatives,

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but Nick Clegg replaced David Cameron today

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and show that we as Liberal Democrats believe

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the foundation blocks of the coalition are most important.

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This issue is taking away from matter.

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Is there a danger that the affect of this on the public

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will make them unhappy with the Conservative Party,

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but also unhappy with politicians in general?

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People are concerned about their jobs and the NHS and hear the politicians

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talking about Europe again.

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If you are unhappy with politicians,

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then the most likely thing you will do is vote for smaller parties

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such as UKIP.

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They are seen as anti-politics,

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but they are even more obsessional about Europe.

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I can't see how you can make any sense

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out of that circle.

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That is what is happening at the moment.

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They wanted to kick the traditional parties,

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and then they moved to these other parties.

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UKIP are obsessed about Europe.

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Glyn, do you believe that the fear of UKIP is what is behind all of this?

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I think they have had an effect.

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At the next general election in 2015,

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people will be looking at who has offered the referendum.

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Perhaps they will vote for UKIP or to get a referendum, the Tories.

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Do you believe that it's true or do you believe that Ed Miliband,

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sooner or later, will make a promise for the Labour Party?

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He has avoided the question so far.

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They cannot accept the government message.

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The government has conditions connected to this promise

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of a referendum.

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Cameron says he wants to renegotiate Britain's place in Europe.

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It's only after all these dealings take place

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that a referendum would be held.

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We do not know what the terms would be.

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If Cameron started that process now, then we would have a better idea

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about whether things are heading in the right direction.

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There would be a situation then,

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and we would know that it would make sense to hold a referendum.

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But he has said this will not happen until after the next election,

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and that he must still be in power at the time.

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We have to remember that the government has legislated

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to make sure if there is any change,

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then we must hold a referendum.

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We have many advantages of being part of the union in Wales

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and I personally would like to stay in the EU.

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What should we call this place? Decent suggestions only!

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The name of the establishment is the National Assembly of Wales.

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But during Welsh Questions at the House of Commons,

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the MP for Lichfield called for a change.

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In the light of the Silk review,

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which is likely to give fundraising powers to the National Assembly,

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does he not agree with me and with the leader of the Welsh Tories

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that now is the time to start considering calling it

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the Welsh Parliament?

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The Silk Commission has not yet completed its work,

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it will be reporting next year.

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The title National Assembly is one that is used

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by the primary legislators of countries

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like France and South Africa and by the regional legislators for Quebec.

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The issue is what the legislator does and not what it is called.

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I don't think we can call that a slap to RT Davies,

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the leader of the Welsh Tories, but it was not far from that.

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That sounded very much like Andrew RT Davies,

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She came up with the idea last summer.

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I happen to see the Welsh Secretary coming in

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when that question was asked.

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She had said no at the time. He said no just then.

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I would rather Andrew RT Davies and David Jones

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work together so we can see the recommendations

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of the Silk Commission coming through.

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Does it matter?

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No, I would like to know what Glyn Davies thinks.

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He is one of the few people

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who have crossed from the Assembly to Westminster.

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There are two others, Alun Cairns and David Davies.

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Tory members of Parliament are much more devolution sceptic

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than the Conservative members in the Assembly.

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It seems to be a split.

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Conservatives tend to be devolution sceptics,

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anything that sounds like an increase in status or power

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or prestige, they will want to diminish.

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The same can be said about Europe.

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They want a House of Commons that has control over everything.

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Perhaps you could say the same for Labour MPs and Labour AM?

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Glyn, does it matter?

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It doesn't matter that much if Assembling members

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wanted to have a new name, then they should vote on it.

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If they use the word Parliament,

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I'm sure it would catch on and other people would call it that as well.

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People will use whatever name we give it.

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Rhodri Morgan was the one who decided we would call it

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the Welsh government rather than the Welsh executive.

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We also changed the terms Secretaries to Ministers.

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No-one in Wales understood the term, Secretary.

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No-one understood what First Secretary meant

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or what the terms Secretary of this and that, meant.

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But they did understand the term, Minister.

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They have changed the terms in Scotland to Secretaries,

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so they change from time to time.

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I did not phone Tony Blair to ask for permission.

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I did it and people were happy with it.

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Did Tony Blair say anything about it?

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No, I don't think so. I think the biggest devolution sceptics say

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I played a big part in legislation, but there is nothing

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in the constitution to say you should use the term Prime Minister.

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The correct title is First Lord of the Admiralty.

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The term, Prime Minister was a little bit insulting.

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I decided that we needed a First Minister in Wales.

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We'll have to leave it there. That's all for this evening.

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We will be back with CF99 at 10pm next week. Good evening.

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