12/06/2013 CF99


12/06/2013

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Transcript


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Good evening and welcome to CF99,

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the postcode of the Assembly here in Cardiff Bay.

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On tonight's programme -

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Water, wind and sometimes sun, the obstructions to release

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our natural resources.

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There are companies and individuals telling us

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that they feel that Wales isn't moving fast enough.

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And is avoiding tax immoral?

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David Cameron is calling on the G8 countries to act.

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I am joined by Carol Bell, an expert on the energy industry,

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Luned Jones from Oxfam Wales and the Labour MP for Anglesey, Albert Owen.

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Welcome to you. Carwyn Jones has said that this is Wales' energy decade.

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He thinks there is great potential here in Wales.

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He says that there is potential to increase energy supply here

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without damaging the environment. But what is the reality?

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Over the last week, protests over windfarms and doubts

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over the Severn windfarm project has shown that there is a long way to go

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before that dream can be realised.

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The Welsh economy has always been driven by its natural resources.

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Mining the land and treating the land.

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Aberdulais' waterfalls have been producing power since 1584

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for some of the largest industries in Wales.

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At one time,

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most of the industrialisation of the world was here in Wales.

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Wales had a number of large ports at that time.

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Wales and energy isn't anything new really.

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What has happened is that the emphasis is on carbon,

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prices are going up and we're struggling to find the elements.

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We have to look at what is Wales

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and its relationship with energy in the future.

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This is a very different problem.

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But the Welsh Government sees the challenges of the energy industry

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as a chance than a problem because many believe that if Wales

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took advantage of its natural resources,

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then it could transform the economy.

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But the question is are we making the most of the chances available?

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No, we are not.

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If you read the reports that we have produced as a committee

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especially in the field of renewable energy and planning policies,

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there are many companies that feel that Wales isn't moving fast enough

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to get permission to invest in energy.

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At present, many large renewable energy projects hang in the balance.

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They have their supporters but some fiercely oppose.

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This week, a project worth billions of pounds to build a barrage

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across the Severn, was criticised by a parliamentary committee.

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Last week, there were even further protests against wind turbines.

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There are other ways that won't destroy the lives of people

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living in the coutryside.

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The development of a new power station on Angelsey

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is far from being completed.

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It's very hard to move forward with some of these schemes

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because developers aren't too clear

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as to where they can invest money to develop it. This is a problem.

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The Government of Wales says they are working to develop the sector.

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The First Minister chaired the first meeting

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of the Welsh Energy Strategy Group this week.

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Two years ago, Carwyn Jones said that he wanted to see

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the green sector flourish in the next ten years.

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But for some, there is a gap between the saying and the doing.

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We have the expertise here in Wales.

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If I work in England or Scotland,

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it's often that people have been trained in Wales.

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So, the people here need to know that the resources

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are being used properly.

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It is moving in the right direction but it will take time.

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Perhaps that the potential is clear

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but there are a number of obstacles to make the Government's dream

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of releasing the potential and boost the economy.

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Albert Owen,

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we have all heard that Anglesey is considered an energy island.

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There is a new scheme now in conjunction

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with Aberystwyth and Bangor universities.

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We have the nuclear power reactor, but when will people see jobs?

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The jobs were created for the nuclear power station,

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but the situation moves slowly.

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There is a bill going through the Commons at the moment.

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We need to put the framework in place to make sure people

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have the opportunities to invest.

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If we do not do this,

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then we'll have to bring in energy from other places.

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We have been moving forward quickly on wind energy.

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But people oppose wind turbines on the land.

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We need to start developing more out on the sea.

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There are opportunities, and there will be good jobs available.

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We have to make sure we have the right schemes in place.

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Things need to be in place in Holyhead so that this can continue.

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We can then create jobs and then link up with the universities

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to make sure we have the right skills in place.

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We have started on that work.

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Local Government seems to be involved as well.

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We need to cooperate across all levels to make sure

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we have what we need in order to have a low carbon-emission economy.

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Carol Bell, you travel the world with your work,

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how does Government in Britain at all levels compare with other places?

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Without a clear direction,

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we seem to have opted for wind turbines

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without having a clear scheme on it.

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Unfortunately, that's an expensive way.

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We shouldn't be creating energy in this way as it's expensive.

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As customers, we could expect to pay more for our energy

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and be less competitive than others.

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What should we be doing?

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It's difficult to bring up one option,

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but any renewable energy from that depends on subsidies

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will mean that we are just putting money in the pockets

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of those behind the schemes.

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That depends on having a subsidy

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in the sense that it has a guaranteed price.

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Yes, but that's completely different.

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The technology has been proven when it comes to other things.

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It's terrible that we have not started early enough

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when it comes to investing in nuclear power.

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We have to rely on gas and on coal as well, to some extent.

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This has to continue until nuclear power is stable.

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Luned, you are involved with those countries

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who may be paying most when it comes to climate change.

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We know that climate change affects the lives of millions

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of people around the world.

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It affects how they can grow crops and flooding and so on.

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We have a responsibility even as a small nation to ensure

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that we meet the carbon emission targets

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and cut down greenhouse gases.

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We need to look at upgrading our houses.

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They have to be much more fuel efficient.

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We have a lot of work to do.

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We also need to look at the other perspective of fuel poverty.

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We know that a number of Welsh homes are suffering from this.

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Research has been carried out which could mean that jobs

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could be created while we deal with these problems.

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Albert, can those types of jobs make up for those other jobs?

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A number of jobs have disappeared because of the cost.

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One example is the aluminium industry which has disappeared

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not only from Anglesey, but from Britain.

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But there are new technologies and we have to move forward.

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I agree we have concentrated too much on wind turbines on land,

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but many understand that we have to move into a low-carbon economy.

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We need to move on with the various options.

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We must have research and development as well.

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That is crucial.

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We can then create jobs which are of a high quality.

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The whole British economy has to move forward.

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There is a great potential to move forward with this idea.

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Seimens have moved from Germany to Britain

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because they see the potential of this.

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We have to co-operate with large companies

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but also get the infrastructure in place.

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Carole, you were responsible for the term "Ffracio" in Welsh.

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With two "f".

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Fracking is a controversial technology to get gas

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out from the ground.

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It has made a big difference in the United States.

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Can you see it coming over here?

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We do have potential here in Wales and in parts of England as well,

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but the problem is they have done a lot of this in America

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in areas which are sparsely populated, but in Britain,

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we all live on top of each other, and there isn't much room

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to talk all the noise and the problems when the hole is dug.

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You are going to have a lot of problems when the drilling takes place.

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It has had an effect already.

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The price of coal has decreased,

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and renewable energy appears to be much more expensive as a result.

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That's what has happened.

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What has happened with the price of gas falling

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to one fifth of what it was worth here in the UK,

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is that they've taken coal from the industry in America,

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and bringing it over to us.

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These low prices in America will affect us.

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We, as a small nation can't think that low prices won't affect us.

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Any government has to weigh up all these things -

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the long-term plans and the short-term plans as well.

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We can see that prices are increasing when it comes to energy,

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but we also see that income isn't going up to match it.

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People then see that the energy bills are becoming more expensive.

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It is pushing more people into fuel poverty.

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Where is the balance between the short-term -

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the pressure that customers are under and the long-term aspect?

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We have to invest in new technology now.

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If we do not do this and have a dash for gas as in the 70s,

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then we will have a situation returning as we have seen before.

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The commodity prices will increase. That is the big thing.

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We have to be very careful when we talk about making up the prices.

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Wales is an excellent country to do this.

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I'm glad that the Assembly has moved forward on this.

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They need to work with the British Government to make sure

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they have the right policies and plans in place to move forward.

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When it became clear that some large companies

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were paying little tax in Britain,

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a heated public debate kicked off about the fairness of the system.

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Next week, David Cameron will try to encourage G8 leaders

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to act at an international level to ensure companies contribute fairly.

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This is the debate according to one of tonight's guests.

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Taxes have become a political debate recently

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following attention given to Starbucks and Google.

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MPs are now discussing the morality of the practises

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that have been going on from some large companies.

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Leaders from the G8 countries will be meeting in Northern Ireland

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next week.

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David Cameron has said that tax avoidance

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will be central to those talks.

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It is a big issue in Britain,

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but it's even more important when it comes to poorer countries.

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We estimate that poorer countries are losing 160 billions a year

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through tax avoidance.

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The system is allowing the poorest countries to remain poor

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without doctors, teachers or nurses.

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The G8 needs to secure that every tax haven shares information

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and so that there is no place to hide.

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At last, tax evasion is at the top of the agenda.

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It's up to David Cameron to lead and act according to his word.

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-That was very good! But is it easier said than done?

-For who?

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It isn't easy, but there are ways, clever ways,

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where the large companies can get advice on how to avoid paying tax.

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We need to act.

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The world is in agreement that something has to be done

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to ensure that it is a level playing field for everyone.

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There is no way of carrying on with this process.

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But you can't do that without a global tax set in Government?

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The talks next week will see

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the richest world leaders around the same table.

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They need to show goodwill to try and solve this problem.

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There are people in this country suffering as a result.

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We're losing money from our public purse.

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We don't have the problems people have in the poorest countries.

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I think what's worrying is that about a year ago,

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we didn't have any idea that these large companies were doing this.

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We have to be careful about words.

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They are using legal systems that were in place in order to avoid tax.

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Well, clever or sly.

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-But if it is there, as a business person.

-They were using them!

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-It isn't just a question of morality.

-They are paying less tax!

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I believe some of the leaders are in agreement

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that they'll have to do what needs to be done.

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It's normal that people are angry.

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We've heard about these different companies,

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but in truth, isn't it their responsibility

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of a manager to do what he can do?

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As long as it is within the law.

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What we have seen here is that the business world is global

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and the tax system has not followed in the same way.

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Nobody could have seen this.

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Looking back at my own career, I would not have thought

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that things would have developed to such a global scale

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as they have done.

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To think about coffee shops which are global

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and can use these rules legally, I wouldn't have predicted this.

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David Cameron can make a difference here next week.

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They need to get the relevant authorities to talk with the bodies

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in other countries in order to make sure that everything is transparent.

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We need to know what the profits are and where the taxes are paid.

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That will be a big help. But think of Europe.

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There was a great opportunity when the European countries

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came together to sort out the taxes, but that was a failure.

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Once more, it is almost inevitable that countries will try to get

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a competitive advantage by cutting corporate tax.

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Ireland is almost boasting that its taxes are so low.

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Britain wants a part of that.

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But Vodafone isn't paying corporation tax at all,

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and they are competing against British companies which are paying.

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Starbucks have cafes on the high street in Britain,

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and they are competing against home-grown businesses

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which have to pay tax here.

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I think we have to tackle this with leaders of the G8.

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But it is also up to people like us to choose where we buy our products.

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That is a way we can protest against these companies.

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We have to draw attention to the fact that some companies

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aren't paying corporation tax.

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We could buy from British companies who have to pay

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these corporation taxes.

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It is important that David Cameron leads on this issue.

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Blair and Brown highlighted the problems in Africa

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when we had summits here in the past.

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This is a chance for David Cameron

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to get his voice heard internationally.

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We have to do this as MPs here in Britain

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It is not enough just to tackle this on a British level.

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It has to be done globally.

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We have seen examples today of Google investing a lot of money

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on tackling the issue of images of child abuse appearing online.

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This was done after David Cameron asked them to do so.

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There is a way of appealing to a company to act on an issue.

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It's not just a question of conscience.

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It is a question of transparency. We have to have transparency.

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We have to see where they pay their taxes.

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This is not transparent at the moment.

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We also need agreement between different bodies.

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You have a number of different bodies at different levels.

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It is difficult to get agreement across all of these.

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We have to make sure that the politicians and people responsible

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for collecting taxes talk to each other on an international basis.

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Albert, you talked about boycotting and protesting.

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We have seen some protests outside Starbucks,

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but there is no suggestion yet that a firm such as Amazon

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will be quaking in their boots

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because people like to use the service.

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When Starbucks was named, it has had an effect.

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Their profit has decreased in the past six months.

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The leaders going to Northern Ireland will have to work together.

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As a charity, you cannot organise boycotts,

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but would you like to see action being taken?

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We would like to see action taking place.

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People are very angry about this.

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We can see that budgets are being affected in the richer countries,

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and the situation is even worse with poorer countries.

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We need to get that money back to them.

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Thank you very much. We'll be back at the usual time of 9.30 next week.

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Among other thing, we'll be asking if we have too many councils

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and councillors.

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Join us next week. Until then, goodbye.

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