19/06/2013 CF99


19/06/2013

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Good evening and welcome to CF99 from Cardiff Bay.

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On tonight's programme:

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They collect bins, repair roads and schools and much more,

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but is it time to cut the number of councils in Wales?

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The world is changing and we need to be prepared

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to move with it and we need to be ready to lead that that change.

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And do council chambers adequately reflect our society?

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Joining me tonight are three experts on local government

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Assembly Member and former Wrexham Council leader, Aled Roberts.

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Labour Cabinet member from Cardiff Council, Huw Thomas

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and Ceredigion Council leader, Ellen ap Gwynn from Plaid Cymru.

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Welcome.

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It hasn't been a good year for local government leaders in Wales.

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Tomorrow, at a summit in Cardiff

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they will have an opportunity to commiserate

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after months of cuts to services and criticism over pay rises.

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At the top of the agenda will be restructuring

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and cutting the number of councils.

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One academic has told CF99

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that it would be a mistake to make drastic changes.

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Here's Aled ap Dafydd.

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This is the Llanofer building that opened opened in 2012.

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One school servicing four local authorities.

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For six years, pupils from Torfaen, Newport, Monmouth

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and Blaenau Gwent all receive their education Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw.

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The headteacher, Ellis Griffiths, has seen almost £15m

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spent on this school in the last year.

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It was extended to include a new building and new equipment.

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I think it is important the local authorities co-operate

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in order to create facilities of this standard.

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We need investment and we also need co-operation

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with scarce resources so I think this is the way forward.

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I think the smaller local authorities have suffered

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in terms of investment in the past.

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The way forward is for them to work together with other authorities.

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In 2006, the Beecham report said more co-operation

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was needed between local authorities in Wales.

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The warning was if that hadn't happened by 2011

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then the number of local authorities should be cut.

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Two years after that deadline, the question is whether

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that message has reached council chambers across Wales?

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Professor Steve Martin took out the research work for the report.

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He warns against any far-reaching changes.

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I would be in favour of looking at some of the smallest authorities

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to see whether if we can amalgamate them with larger authorities.

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But I would be reticent over a wholesale reorganisation

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of local government for two reasons.

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It is impossible to get the optimum size

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for a local council because it depends

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which service you are looking at.

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Some are best delivered by bigger authorities

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and some by small authorities and some in between.

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The process of reorganisation itself is a huge distraction.

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Running our local authorities is a challenging task

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in the economic climate.

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They spend £5.7 billion between them.

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In the last five years, there has been a cut of 8.4% in their budget.

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For some, local government is a world of gluttony.

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Too many executives on high wages.

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In Caerphilly, council workers were angry after the Chief Executive

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received a pay increase that was ruled illegal.

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£140 million needs to be saved,

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but some people are still receiving pay rises.

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The question is what is the service quality?

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What do people get for their money?

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What kind of services are they offering?

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That's the conversation that needs to be had on the streets

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rather than levels of pay.

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I think people care about what they receive

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in return from their council services.

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Tomorrow is the Wales Local Government meeting.

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Everyone will merge to unite.

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Many people will also know that a shake-up could mean empty seats.

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The axe is likely to fall, but who knows how..

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Aled ap Dafydd reporting.

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There is some kind of consensus that the shake-up

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that took place in the 1990s has not produced the ideal system.

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There is also a consensus that a shake-up at a time of cuts

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would be extremely difficult.

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The Government says the answer is co-operation,

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but is that happening? The Education Minister says it isn't.

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I know it is happening in Ceredigion.

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We have two schemes in place where we are working closely

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with Powys Council on food waste for instance.

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We have the Quick scheme which means that we are sharing officials

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when it comes to building work.

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It's important because it keeps these professional jobs in the area

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and I think when we talk about a shake-up

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that we need to remember that we are talking

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about a massive geographical area in the centre of Wales

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that is in danger of being forgotten unless we are careful

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We will come to boundaries and constituencies in a moment.

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In terms of co-operation especially in education,

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it seems the minister is feeling very frustrated.

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He's saying the consortium isn't working

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and some are worse than others.

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It appears that he is feeling that way.

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I'm happy that it is working in my area.

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It has in terms of the consortium.

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In the South East, we formed three hubs.

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Ceredigion and Powys are co-operating

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with Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire

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and Swansea and Neath Port Talbot are co-operating

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and we are improving education through that consortium.

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It is in terms of the improvement in standards,

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that's what we think is really important.

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It is important that that we provide good education.

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What has gone wrong with these consortia?

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I was listening to the question session here earlier this week.

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Leighton Andrews said that he's lost patience with this consortia.

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He said that he had lost his patience. What has happened?

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I don't feel as though the Government leadership

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was strong enough in the first place.

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He decided it was possible for different models to be formed

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between the four consortia. And also as a result of that,

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there was no agreement between the different councils.

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I think the minister is frustrated

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because certainly in North Wales,

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the consortia won't be ready by September.

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Does that mean that you as Assembly members

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will have to say, "This isn't an ideal time for a shake-up."

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There isn't an ideal time for a shake-up,

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but we have to do something about these small councils

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for example Merthyr Council.

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A commission has been formed by the First Minister

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and we need to wait and see what that cross party commission decides.

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I also think that we have a tendency in Wales

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to always restructure things rather than to get to grips

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with problems concerning the quality of services

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rather than just the infrastructure.

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Huw Thomas, you are part of one of the largest councils in Wales

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in terms of the number of people it services.

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When you look at councils like Merthyr with 60,000 people,

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there aren't many more living in Blaenau Gwent.

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Do you see such councils as rather small?

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We don't have time to focus on other councils, Vaughan!

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There is a problem in terms of the different sizes

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of councils in Wales.

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I think we have to look at the way of restructuring this,

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but that is a long-term process.

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We are currently facing an economic crisis today

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and so what is the best way for us to co-operate strategically

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in order to make savings that protects core services

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but make efficient savings?

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Let's now discuss what we heard from Lesley Griffiths

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on Newyddion Naw just half an hour ago.

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She said quite frankly we have protected

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local Government budgets in the past but from now on,

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we just can't do so. You will be facing the kind of cuts

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that councils in England have faced.

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Will that force councils to co-operate?

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I think it will.

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I think there is more co-operation between councils now

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especially in the South East.

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They tend to be Labour councils but they tend to work together

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because they acknowledge the economic reality.

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I think it's inevitable, but I think we will see in the summit tomorrow

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that Welsh councils will be ready to co-operate,

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acknowledging that's the better way to go.

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Ellen ap Gwynn,

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do you think there will be some kind of benefit as a result

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of these changes, however painful they might be?

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Do you think all the arguments will disappear?

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I hope so.

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Facing such a challenge is also a great opportunity.

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We have to look again at how we provide our service.

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We don't necessarily need to restructure councils

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but we need to look at the way we deliver services.

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As Dyfed said earlier,

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people want to know when their bins will be collected,

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where their children will go to school

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and whether family members will receive social services.

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That's what people care about.

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Those services are expensive

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and they take up around 75% of our budgets -

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education and social services.

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If those services are protected within the budget

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the minister gives us, that means we are given less and less

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to deliver the other services such as refuse collection,

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the road maintenance and so on.

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And Huw's portfolio in Cardiff.

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Huw, are you expecting the axe

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as a result of the exact factors Ellen is talking about?

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You have to spend on these services, and your portfolio,

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the ministry for fun as it were, will see cuts?

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I have to be honest.

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I am worried about the future.

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Of course, it is important to make the argument,

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how do theatres, leisure centres make an economic contribution

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to towns and cities.

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How do they contribute to the health agenda, for instance?

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So those services make a huge contribution to society

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that aren't reflected in the bottom line council budgets.

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But the problem is, people see the Millennium Centre behind you

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and I'm sure that the Millennium Centre brings in

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millions of pounds worth of business into Cardiff every year.

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But if you present the electorate with a choice between

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carrying on giving money to the arts,

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but cutting back on the amount of help your mother receives,

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everyone would go with the core services at the end of the day?

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I'm sure that's a factor and in our last budget in Cardiff,

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that is the decision we took.

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We decided to protect social services and education

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and actually increase their budgets.

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But there were cuts to leisure and sports budgets

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and for those areas which weren't protected.

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So what we have to do is co-operate

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and look at other ways of delivering services.

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I will put all three of you on the spot

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to end this discussion.

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If you were starting again and there were no restructuring costs,

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if you could draw the map from anew,

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how many local councils would you have in Wales?

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We have 22, what's the ideal number?

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-I think between five and seven.

-Five to seven. Huw.

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Certainly less than ten. I would imagine about eight.

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I wouldn't go back to that system because

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Ceredigion really suffered under Dyfed.

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There wasn't any investment at all.

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We don't want to see those large councils again.

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I would go back to the old system.

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Not even 13, but somewhere around that.

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The pattern would be different but around 14-15, I would say.

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Very interesting. Thank you.

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We'll come back to you in a moment.

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Next - We've got two here tonight but what comes to mind

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when one thinks of a councillor?

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A woman like Ellen or a young man like Huw? Unlikely.

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Recently Local Government Minister Lesley Griffiths

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said that we needed more variety in our chambers

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and had to encourage more women and individuals from ethnic minorities

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to stand as county and community councillors.

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But what's the situation at the moment?

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Steffan Messenger has been crunching the numbers.

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There are more than 9,000 county and community councillors in Wales.

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Some of them will come here tomorrow to the City Hall

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for the annual summit of the Welsh Local Government Association.

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Recently a question has arisen over

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whether our councils reflect society.

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Is there enough variation?

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Or is it too easy to guess the profile of Welsh councillors?

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According to Welsh Government statistics published recently,

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the majority of Welsh councillors are over 60.

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57% of county council and 61% of community councillors.

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99.4% of councillors are white

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and just 32% are women.

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Last month, the Local Government Minister, Lesley Griffiths,

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said that things had to change.

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She has set up a special group to look at how to open up

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council chambers to reflect the community they represent.

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There are two ways you can do this.

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I think the way the minister has done it is

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by reaching for the plasters to try and cover the cracks.

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That's that they're going to do now.

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But I think what we need to do in my opinion,

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is to get to grips with the core problem

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which is the fact that local government structure in Wales

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is all wrong. Everyone knows that.

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But they are unwilling to get to grips with it.

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The voting process needs to be tackled.

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3,000 county and community councillors were interviewed

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for the Government's recent figures.

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83% said they had previously been councillors.

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That might be a sign that new blood is rare.

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As one of the youngest councillors at Gwynedd Council,

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Mair Rowlands is aware that she is in the majority.

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I think people have a certain image in their heads

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of what local authorities are like

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and have never thought about standing.

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Once you support them and if they do take part in their community

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and are enthusiastic such as young mothers

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or somebody who has had a successful career

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in a specialised, area, it is important to encourage them,

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but there is a stigma surrounding local government.

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The hope now is to smash that stigma

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to make sure our councils have different characters.

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That was Steffan on the streets of Cardiff.

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Some of the figures are quite frightening, aren't they?

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Yes, and unless councils change their structure

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in terms of council meetings and so on,

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then it is hard to see it changing.

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Is it the councils or the parties?

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I think the main problem is the council.

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It is possible for parties to look at targets

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in terms of women and ethnic minority candidates.

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But I think we can attract more people in

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but once they're in and they see the way the councils work,

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I think it is difficult to see how they would carry on to be honest.

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Huw, your group on Cardiff Council is full of new councillors.

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-You had about 13 before the election, and now you have...

-46.

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What is the representation in your group?

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I didn't recognise that bulletin, to be honest

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because it is quite a mixed group, to be honest.

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We've clearly got Heather Joyce as leader

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and the only other female leader is Ellen ap Gwynn here.

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We have three aged under 32 on the cabinet.

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We have several young members

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and over a third are female so it is not a perfect balance.

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We have some from ethnic backgrounds as well.

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Not the perfect balance but it's certainly better

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than what was described there.

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Did that happen naturally?

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Is that because Cardiff is a multi-cultural and a mixed city

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or did the party go out of their way to make sure that happened?

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One thing we had was, all our target seats had a woman on the shortlist.

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Because Cardiff has three seat wards?

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Exactly, but apart from that it was a natural process

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and there was plenty of competition for places.

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But that is just the talent of the Labour Party in Cardiff.

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That was a party political broadcast!

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How about in Ceredigion, Ellen ap Gwynn?

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I remember years ago I attended a meeting

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and I think it was full of farmers.

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That has changed. That has changed.

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As a result we have changed matters at the council.

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But saying that, I've already had this chat with the minister,

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I actually went out of my way to attract more

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and more women to stand before the last election.

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And I found it extremely difficult to persuade them to stand.

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-Why?

-Mainly because they were working.

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They have children and they have family commitments

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and in a rural area, it can take me three-quarters of an hour

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to go from my house to the head office where we meet.

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If the county is going to grow up to Carmarthen,

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an hour-and-a-half away,

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that is going to mean even fewer people standing.

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It is difficult enough to persuade people to stand now.

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We have six out of 42 members in Ceredigion who are female.

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One is with me on the Cabinet.

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We have got young blood on the Cabinet as well.

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So there is a variety of ages.

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We have got more young people coming in after the last election,

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but we don't have enough women.

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That's not for the want of trying.

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It's easier to get them in the community.

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I think jobs are very relevant

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because I see it all the time.

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The fact that councillors work part-time as well as council duties,

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is often used as a political weapon.

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We need to look at that.

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I think we need to accept the fact that people

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aren't prepared to put their careers on hold as it was

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in order to become councillors.

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That's very difficult, and as a father with children,

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unless your partner is eager for you to take on that work,

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it is very difficult.

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Aled Roberts, we are both old enough to remember

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when councillors worked for free.

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Some people thought if councillors were paid,

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a fair wage, that would free people up.

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But the responsibilities that councillors have

0:21:440:21:47

are much heavier now than when I started 25 years ago.

0:21:470:21:51

It used to be four meetings a month.

0:21:510:21:55

If you're talking about a leader

0:21:550:21:58

or a cabinet portfolios within any council,

0:21:580:22:01

you need to work at least part-time as a councillor

0:22:010:22:05

and as a council leader it is hard not take it on as a full-time job.

0:22:050:22:09

So what kind of move has to be made to improve the situation?

0:22:110:22:15

Is there a magic bullet solution or is Local Government

0:22:160:22:21

just a reflection of where power lies in our society?

0:22:210:22:25

I think we need our structures to be more flexible

0:22:270:22:31

and we shouldn't think of people who are over 60

0:22:310:22:35

to be in charge of everything.

0:22:350:22:38

And to some extent power still lies with white males over 60.

0:22:380:22:42

And that goes for women too.

0:22:440:22:46

What is your magic bullet solution?

0:22:470:22:50

-Sorry?

-One thing to change the situation?

0:22:500:22:53

We need to attract more women and persuade them

0:22:530:22:56

that they can do the work.

0:22:560:22:58

I think there is a problem to do with lack of confidence.

0:22:580:23:01

They think they can't do it.

0:23:010:23:03

They are willing to stand on the community councils,

0:23:030:23:06

but it is a different matter.

0:23:060:23:08

Once they try it out and gain experience they are fine,

0:23:080:23:11

and they are excellent,

0:23:110:23:13

but it is persuading them in the first place

0:23:130:23:15

and we need to raise confidence.

0:23:150:23:18

And what do you think?

0:23:180:23:20

We need to get the parties to speak to people so that

0:23:200:23:23

people realise that councillors are normal people too.

0:23:230:23:26

Thank you all. That's it for tonight.

0:23:260:23:29

We will be back at 9.30pm next Wednesday.

0:23:290:23:34

I hope you will join me then.

0:23:340:23:36

There is more political chat on O'r Bae on Radio Cymru

0:23:360:23:40

at 2.00pm on Friday. Good evening.

0:23:400:23:43

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