03/07/2013 CF99

Good evening and welcome to CF99 live from the National Assembly.

On the programme the language,

the First Minister and a late night for Assembly Members.

First, let's welcome our guests tonight -

the Language Commissioner, Meri Huws,

Llyr Roberts, a business lecturer at the University of South Wales.

And the chair of the Welsh Language Society, Robin Farrar.

Tomorrow, the First Minister will host a conference

on the government's Welsh language scheme, the Big Conversation.

Our reporter, James Williams, has been back to Carmarthenshire

to assess the state of the language where he was brought up.

St Clear's is a small town in Carmarthenshire.

It was central to the Rebecca Riots 170 years ago.

I was raised in this town and went to a Welsh-medium school here,

but English was the language in the local shops,

at the football club and the local rugby club.

Although Carmarthenshire is seen as a stronghold for the language,

this is where the largest fall was seen in Welsh speakers

in the last census.

Fewer than half the people here now speak Welsh.

Ten miles away near the town of Carmarthen

is Bro Myrddin Comprehensive School.

Huw Griffiths was my geography teacher.

Have you seen a big change?

I don't think so. Welsh is thriving in this school.

I do hear English spoken on the corridors.

Very often they speak English naturally together,

but they are able to speak Welsh.

They just decide not to use it every time.

Because we live in a Welsh-speaking area,

many think the Welsh language will go on for ever,

but I think we need to make it clear how fragile the Welsh language is.

If we don't use it, it will disappear.

Although there is a strong Welsh community in the area,

you don't always hear Welsh spoken on the schoolyard.

I have been brought up in a Welsh-speaking home,

so it comes naturally for me.

For children from English-speaking families,

they find it easier to talk in English.

I think many people feel they have to speak Welsh properly.

They see the Welsh language as something people criticise.

Although we both met at comprehensive school

and we both come from Welsh-speaking families,

my friend and I often speak English together.

He is one of my friends who has decided to stay in the area

where he has started a buy-to-let business in Carmarthen.

How important is Welsh to you

in terms of attracting business and developing your company?

Very important.

It is so important because if we speak to a customer in Welsh,

you have an immediate connection.

People who rent homes from us so far only a few people I've come across

have been able to speak Welsh.

A lot of the people we have found homes for

are people like doctors from over the border

or English-speaking families.

The burning issue in Carmarthenshire at the moment

is the effect of planning applications on the language.

If the ambition to build 300 homes in the area likely to alter

the future of the language here?

People are also scratching their heads over the best way

to encourage people to use the Welsh language in their daily lives.

That is very important in making sure the next census figures

are more encouraging.

Those are the sort of questions the First Minister wants us to discuss.

Have we been spending too long discussing

things like the status of the language rather than asking

more fundamental questions like, how often people use the language?

All those questions are important, and we need to look at them all.

I welcome the fact this conference is taking place tomorrow.

It is not one question or the other. We need to discuss all options.

We heard the young people there talking about their impression

of the Welsh language, and it strikes a chord with me.

We have to discuss whether it is about the way Welsh

is used at home or at work.

Does age come into it?

We saw a pupil there, I went to school with his father.

I spoke English to his father, if I remember correctly,

but if we met now, we would speak Welsh.

There is pressure on children which doesn't exist when you get older.

That is very true. I used to speak Welsh at school as a protest.

It was part of the way I defined myself, I suppose.

We need to look at why people choose to use either language.

Rather than condemning people, we need to encourage people.

Have we been slow to ask these questions and consider

broader subjects than issues like bilingual signs and so on?

I would say the Government has been slow in this case.

The strategy they have been following

hasn't been ambitious enough.

It hasn't enabled them to reach their own targets.

The First Minister acknowledged that earlier.

He said everyone's language had failed,

what should the Government do?

It's good to hear the First Minister finally acknowledging that.

That has been obvious since the census result was released.

What they have to do now is to make sure

the current strategy doesn't fail.

In order to achieve that, they need to adopt far-reaching policies,

which we have suggested in our manifesto.

We made 38 recommendations, things like language standards,

making sure they're achieved.

We need to get these things right. I agree with Meri Huws.

We do need to consider all options,

but there are a number of issues we understand already.

We need to set up clear guidelines for the language and its future.

We need the planning system to take the language into consideration.

It is important that it meets local demands.

We need to take action immediately

There was one throw-away sentence in that report when he said

"One of a few of my friends decided to stay in the area."

Isn't that the heart of the problem

in Welsh-speaking areas, people tend to move to Cardiff perhaps?

Without a strong local economy,

it's difficult to keep young people in the area.

That is a big problem to tackle.

We all agree that we need an economic revival in these areas.

The crisis we are facing with the language is a lot deeper

than just Carmarthenshire.

What we need urgently is a marketing campaign

to give people confidence to use the language.

Something wonderful happened to me today.

I organised to go to a garage in the capital on the internet,

and I left a message in English.

I received an answer phone message in Welsh.

We need to create that environment

and that confidence in people to use Welsh in the workplace and socially.

-That is where we need to focus.

-But is that enough?

Many would say the difference between the state of the Welsh

in Carmarthenshire and in North Wales

stem from decisions made by Gwynedd Council

regarding the education system.

Today, we live with the outcome of those decisions.

We are still living with those decisions 25 years on.

That may be true, but we have to face that today.

We have to look at the strategies we can put forward today.

We need to look at the skills

we nurture in young people in further education.

They need to take those skills through to the workplace.

A Director of Education in North Wales said in 1975

every primary school in Gwynedd should be a Welsh-medium school.

Is that possible today in Carmarthenshire?

It's been done in South Ceredigion.

There is nothing to stop it, but we go back to the planning system.

We need a national planning system

which takes the Welsh language into account.

We need to it ensure that Welsh remains a living language.

I would say standards are very important

because we need standards in order to create growth.

Robin, I mentioned the conference on the Big Conversation.

Many people might see it as a talking shop.

How would you measure its success? Is that possible?

Within a few days, we will see whether the First Minister

is showing the necessary leadership in terms of policy.

This is a critical time for the First Minister.

I'm looking forward to seeing how he will tackle the problem tomorrow.

Will he make the difficult decisions which are necessary

in order to make sure that we don't find ourselves in a situation

similar to the planning situation in Carmarthenshire?

The Welsh language hasn't been taken into account there.

Decisions have been taken based on decisions

which are over 20 years old.

That doesn't take the language into consideration.

Those decisions have to be made on a statutory basis.

There are wider questions,

and we will discuss those over the years to come.

I don't disagree but we are talking

about an immediate crisis here.

I think we need to act urgently. We need to invest heavily immediately

to promote the language.

We need to educate people

and create opportunities for people to use the language.

I would like to have a better idea of which direction the Government

is going in after tomorrow's conference.

We'll have to leave it there, thanks to all three of you.

We've heard the First Minister's comments on tomorrow's conference.

Speaking to Aled ap Dafydd, he also explained why he took

responsibility for the language when he reshuffled his Cabinet

following the resignation of the Education Minister, Leighton Andrews.

It is important that I have responsibility for the language

because we are facing a significant challenge.

The language is a cross-departmental issue in the Assembly.

That makes it very important. Our language has changed.

Languages are constantly evolving.

My language is similar to that spoken in South Carmarthenshire.

I've changed it a little.

I don't use words like coethan, aelwyd and colfen

when I speak in public or no-one would understand me.

I have a duty to show people I can communicate with people in Wales.

And I need to show people that they too can speak Welsh with confidence.

I need to suggest to people they can use Welsh with confidence.

As we are talking about changes within the government.

When you look back at the last two weeks, how would you describe them?

No-one could have predicted what happened.

I came into work on Tuesday, and things change.

It's often important to bring in new Ministers.

In an article in the Western Mail,

Leighton Andrews said he was sacked. Is that how you see it?

No. It was a very difficult situation.

It was difficult for Leighton Andrews

in his role as Education Minister.

I am sure he will play a part in the Government in years to come.

Meri Huws, you have had a few clashes with Leighton Andrews

as many people before and after you. Were you glad to see him go?

I am glad the First Minister has taken responsibility

for the Welsh language,

and I am glad he has given the language that status.

Are you expecting a better response to some of your suggestions?

I am glad to say we had a meeting this afternoon,

and it was a very constructive meeting.

We managed to cover a lot of ground.

I am very hopeful that the First Minister

will see the importance of the development of standards.

Let me ask you about those standards.

Leighton Andrews refused your suggestions regarding standards.

-Are those back on the table?

-It is still early days.

I'm sure we will have an interesting discussion on it.

The Welsh Language Commissioner knows how to be diplomatic.

How do you read those words, Gareth?

It looks to me as if she is very happy that the First Minister

is take an interest in the Welsh language.

He is the top man, and if you want a decision to go your way,

it has to come from the top.

And how do you interpret the role of the First Minister

regarding the language? He is a busy man.

Will he be able to give the necessary time to focus on the language?

He certainly has a broad portfolio,

and he won't be able to focus only on the language.

But the Education Minister had a broad portfolio as well.

One thing is important, and that is that he can't hide away,

and he can't blame anyone else the buck stops

with the First Minister.

Listening to that interview, I think the First Minister is defiant.

He is someone who understands the size of the challenge.

He is very supportive of the language and its development.

Whatever you say about Leighton Andrews,

he did make you think and he did tackle the difficult decisions.

I hope the First Minister will have as much oomph.

You need someone with a bit of oomph to push these civil servants.

But I bet a bottle of champagne has been opened at the office

-of the National Eisteddfod.

-I can't comment on that!

At this time last night, AMs were still debating in the chamber.

At the end of the epic session, a clear majority voted in favour

of legislation that will change the organ donation system in Wales.

But is there a broader significance?

Many see it as an important milestone for devolution.

It has been a big day for Wales. It has been a big day for the Assembly.

We have shown that we are able to use the powers afforded to us

and use them successfully.

But I also think it is a big day for those people

waiting on the transplant list.

Gareth Huws, as a political commentator,

is this an historic moment?

The Assembly hasn't been here long,

so every day is an historic day in a way.

We have many firsts here,

but I don't think it's as significant as people are saying.

What was most significant was the fact that the media in England

took notice of the Assembly.

Can't we decide our own agenda without someone from the outside

telling us how important it is.

We just give it a small mention on the news.

Is that how we determine what is important?

I don't think it should be.

But they are now discussing something that deserves

a place on the national news.

Well, this place should be blamed for that.

We've had a great deal of time to discuss this.

This legislation has been debated

since the very start of the Assembly.

Dai Lloyd was debating this at the start of this establishment.

It is only now we have had the vote after ten years.

If we are going to take that long to create all legislation,

we're going to find it very difficult.

Llyr, I think it's impossible to be quite so cynical as Gareth Hughes,

-do you share that cynicism?

-Not at all.

I walked past this building earlier today, and I was so proud of it.

Wales has its own Parliament.

These are complicated issues that are now being discussed here.

There was a sensible and important debate from both sides,

and this decision, I feel, will lead to many lives being saved.

For me, it was a historic step.

Meri, is this historic?

The Health Minister spoke about the powers to legislate.

It is now the Assembly's job to legislate for the people of Wales.

They need to learn how to draft these laws

and create laws that are clear and understandable.

That is something Assembly members will have to learn over time.

I have not yet been convinced those skills exist in the chamber.

Would you like to expand on the problems

that has been with this measure?

Rather than talk about the problems, I'll just say

that it's a measure which is defined by a process.

What we need to learn to do in Wales

is to legislate for the people of Wales.

I would challenge the members to establish a constitution for Wales.

We live in Britain, where there is no constitution, and that creates

problems when we talk about the rights of the individual.

I think we should have a human rights law here in Wales.

That is very ambitious.

Do you expect to see one of those in the near future, Gareth?

It would be historic,

but it would take some time to achieve something like that.

At one point yesterday,

they discussed the agricultural wages board.

Yes, but they didn't make it law.

Twice in this place,

I think they have made a mess of legislation

on more than one occasion.

This time I think it has gone well,

but I don't think the legislation will make much difference.

I'm far from convinced.

But it's a good thing even if it saves just ten or 15 lives.

I think it's worth it just for that.

But Llyr, Labour was whipped.

The First Minister was the only one standing up for Labour.

-Were you surprised by that?

-Yes, I'm glad.

I don't really understand the arguments against this measure,

so I can't be neutral.

The result is what matters to me, and the standard of scrutiny.

Thank you very much. That's it for tonight.

We'll back at the same time next week. Goodbye.