15/06/2011 Daily Politics


15/06/2011

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Good morning and welcome to the Daily Politics. Coming up in

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today's programme: The Chancellor orders a big shake-up of the banks.

:00:25.:00:30.

But has he done enough to avoid a taxpayers' bailout in future?

:00:30.:00:32.

Teachers vote to strike over pensions, and now civil servants

:00:33.:00:37.

look certain to go out too. How should the government respond?

:00:37.:00:41.

It's a big day for Ed Miliband - after a week of bad headlines, can

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he prove the doubters wrong in PMQs?

:00:46.:00:56.
:00:56.:00:57.

And have pensioners never had it so good? Turns 60 in Britain today,

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and it suddenly feels like life is a beach. Free bus passes, eye tests

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and massive winter fuel payments are all made available to you,

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regardless of where the work or if you are very rich indeed. But I

:01:09.:01:19.
:01:19.:01:24.

don't think we can afford it. All that coming up. 90 minutes of

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public broadcasting service at its finest. And with us for the

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duration, former Communities Secretary Hazel Blears and former

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Conservative Cabinet Minister Cecil Parkinson. Welcome to you both.

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First today, the Chancellor has decided that there should be a

:01:34.:01:36.

separation of the retail and investment operations of the big

:01:36.:01:43.

banks. Banks won't have to sell off their investment arms, but they

:01:43.:01:51.

will have to ringfence their retail divisions to protect depositors.

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He'll use his annual mansion house speech in the City of London

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tonight to make the announcement which follows the recommendations

:01:56.:01:58.

of the independent banking commission headed by Sir John

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Vickers. There had been some doubt about whether George Osborne would

:02:07.:02:10.

go as far as Vickers, though there was pressure from within the

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coalition and notably from Vince Cable to do so. Cecil Parkinson,

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has he made the right decision? think he has. You certainly have to

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separate those two aspects of banking. In fact, I sometimes think

:02:31.:02:39.

the word banking is one of the most over-used words in Britain. A lot

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of the stuff that has happened was nothing to do with Pang Qing. It

:02:42.:02:48.

was pure speculation. -- it was nothing to do with banking. We

:02:48.:02:52.

dignify the speculation by allowing people to call it investment

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banking. So I do not think, for many people who invested money with

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the big banks, had no idea their money was being used by packages of

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duff mortgages. So separating those two so that people know their money

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will not be used in that hugely speculative, dangerous fashion, is

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vital. But are you satisfied that this degree of separation, because

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he is not going the whole hog and saying that retail banking cannot

:03:26.:03:29.

be in investment banking, he is saying they have to be separate

:03:29.:03:33.

companies. Are you saying that if an investment bank goes bust again,

:03:33.:03:38.

that the taxpayer will not have to bail it out? De at is the object of

:03:38.:03:44.

the exercise. We will have to see how these Chinese walls are built

:03:44.:03:49.

and how strong they are. We have had experience of Chinese walls in

:03:49.:03:57.

the past, where banks were supposed to own shares and sell them and

:03:57.:04:03.

advise on them. They were pretty poor. The strength of the wall will

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be vital. Should you have gone the whole hog and said if you are in

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retail banking, you can't be in investment banking? And vice versa?

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This is broadly the right package. It has been recommended. There has

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been a study about it. I am keen that we retain our pre-eminence in

:04:26.:04:31.

financial services in this country. It is important to the economy. So

:04:31.:04:35.

separating it completely to look good, if it would have harmed our

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standing as a financial services centre, I would not have supported.

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But I am concerned about enforcement. We have seen that

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regulation was not tough enough when we got into this global crisis.

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I want to see not just the Chinese walls, but somebody following it up

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and making sure it is an forced. Banks are dangerous creatures and

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will slip back to their old habits unless someone keeps an eye on them.

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The danger would have been if he had gone further and done a total

:05:05.:05:08.

separation, some of the big investment banks could have gone to

:05:08.:05:13.

New York. Meyer Bloomberg is already asking them to come. That

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is true, so you have this conflict of interests. We want British

:05:18.:05:24.

banking to be strong and successful. But we do not want depositors'

:05:24.:05:32.

funds used to buy packages of dud American mortgages. So striking a

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balance was key. Thumbs up for the Chancellor from Cecil.

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Could we be heading for a summer of disappointing weather? Probably.

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And there could be a few strikes too. This afternoon, we'll learn

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whether thousands of civil servants will join teachers on the picket

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line at the end of the month. So how will the government react to

:05:51.:05:55.

unruliness in the classroom and elsewhere? Here's Anita.

:05:55.:05:58.

Yes, Andrew, co-ordinated strikes do look more likely after the two

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biggest teaching unions, the NUT and ATL, voted in favour of

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industrial action on June 30th over changes to their pension plans. And

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today, the PCS union that represents civil service workers is

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expected to overwhelmingly back striking on the same day. Their top

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dog Mark Serwotka says up to 750,000 public sector workers could

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also strike over pension changes. This all comes after the Business

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Secretary Vince Cable was booed and heckled at the GMB union's

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conference last week. He suggested that co-ordinated action may lead

:06:33.:06:38.

to tougher union laws. The Mayor of London Boris Johnson and the CBI

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are amongst those who have called for firmer legislation - they want

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the law changed to prevent a strike taking place unless at least half

:06:45.:06:51.

of the union members in a workplace take part in a ballot. This morning,

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the Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude said the government has no

:06:54.:06:58.

plans to change union laws at the moment, but did not rule out doing

:06:58.:07:06.

so in the future. Well, we're joined now by Iain McNicol of the

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GMB union. Hazel Blears and Lord Parkinson are still here. I

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understand that pensions are one of the main reasons that people are

:07:19.:07:24.

voting to strike. But given that 90% of people in the public sector

:07:24.:07:28.

have defined pensions, the nice kind of pension, and only 10% in

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the private sector, will there be much public sympathy? I think there

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will. If you look at local government workers now, the average

:07:40.:07:46.

pension that a local government member gets is �3,500. That is no

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gold-plated pensions scheme. Yes, there are a few at the top. Quite a

:07:51.:07:56.

few, actually. But the vast majority of our members, when they

:07:56.:08:06.

retire, have a pension scheme of up to �4,000 a year. But those at the

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lower end, those earning under �21,000, that is not wear these

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changes will really hit? government are looking at putting a

:08:19.:08:23.

3% tax on pensions, and that will affect all members of the scheme.

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In local government, that 3% that they have been asked to contribute

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will not go back into the pensions. I am sure there could be a fair

:08:32.:08:37.

discussion if they were going back into pension funds. But it is going

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straight back into central government coffers. So it is a tax

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on those who have their pensions now. So some public sector workers

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are only contributing 1.5% at the moment? Yes, but that is the

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minority. How big a minority? not sure. Neither am I. But the

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local government workers that Unison and the GMB represent pay 6%

:09:01.:09:07.

into their funded schemes. These are funded schemes with the money

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within them to pay for the retirement. We renegotiated the

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scheme two years ago, where extra contribution was made by those

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paying into the scheme, with a reduction of some of the benefits.

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A lot of people used to take the view that those in the public

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sector, this was at a time when private sector pensions were good,

:09:29.:09:34.

too. But it was thought that it was OK that public sector workers had a

:09:34.:09:38.

decent pension scheme, because they were not as well paid. But that has

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changed. On average, public sector workers are now paid �2,000 more

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than the average private sector workers. Do you want a race to the

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bottom? Should we be damning everything down? Or should we work

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to try and increase the money and pay and terms of conditions of

:09:58.:10:02.

those in the private sector? That is what the trade unions have tried

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to do. I understand that and I know you do not represent teachers, but

:10:06.:10:12.

if you look at some of these figures, between 2000 and 2010, a

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teachers' pay increased by 13% in real terms. They have an average of

:10:19.:10:23.

13 wicks' holiday a year in state schools, 18 weeks in the private

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schools. And they are going on strike, too. That compares to 28

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days' average in the private sector. Most people would think in these

:10:31.:10:35.

tough times, we are all suffering. There is an incredible squeeze on

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living standards going on which is hurting the poorest most. Something

:10:40.:10:46.

has to give? In the public sector, there has been no pay rise for the

:10:46.:10:50.

last two years. With inflation running at 5%, that is a 10% pay

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cut over the last two years for those working in the public sector.

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So there has been no pay rise in the public sector for two years? Or

:11:02.:11:07.

are we into the second year now? are through the second year now.

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There has been no pay rise in the LAUGHTER Sets of pay negotiations.

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There was meant to be a payment of two and �50 for the people who were

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earning less than that -- there was meant to be a payment of �250. That

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has been raised with the Government. This is a difficult one for the

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Labour Party, Hazel? On the one hand, you are sympathetic to what

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the GMB is saying here. On the other hand, you do not want a

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reputation again for supporting public sector strikes. Not at all.

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Ed Miliband has been very direct about this. He said last year that

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he would not support irresponsible strikes. Having said that, I can

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understand why people are worried about their pensions. People feel

:11:59.:12:03.

insecure about the squeeze on living standards. In the public

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sector, they often did take lower- paid, thinking they would have job

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security and a decent pension. this an irresponsible strike?

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not think anybody supports strikes. People themselves will not want to

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lose the money. But the government has a responsibility to see if they

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can go into more talks and negotiate. But if it is not

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irresponsible, why wouldn't they Labour leader and a Labour

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opposition support the GMB? would be sent to government, is

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there a way of talking this through? Is there a fair settlement

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that could be reached? Every avenue has to be explored before people go

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on strike. Your union colleague, Mark Serwotka, has been on this

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programme many times. He said he thought negotiations were not going

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anywhere. Do you agree? We are still party to the negotiations.

:12:58.:13:04.

Has he gone out of them? No. There is always hope as long as people

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are talking. This morning on the radio, you heard Francis Maude,

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when he was asked about whether he would look to change the parameters

:13:13.:13:20.

he had set, he never answered that question. The government are -- if

:13:20.:13:23.

the Government refused to negotiate, you are in a difficult situation.

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If you sit around the table and explore, as we have done with

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private companies, if you can thrash out a deal both sides are

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happy with, strikes are not inevitable. But the ones coming up

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are. Cecil Parkinson, you were in government at a time when Britain

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was synonymous with strikes. You have been through quite a few. Do

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you sense a return to these days, or is it not been the same league?

:13:51.:13:56.

First of all, the public sector was hugely reduced when we were in

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power. When I went to DDT eye on behalf of the taxpayer -- when I

:14:04.:14:07.

went to the Department of Trade and Industry on behalf of British

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Airways, it could go on and on. And they were all closed shops. They

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all had heavily unionised workforces. They are now in the

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private sector, so the scope for the disruption we had at that time

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is much less. There are still a lot of key industries. The tubes in

:14:30.:14:37.

London, the hospitals, the schools. But there are many areas which

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previously would have been unionised which now are not. Are we

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heading for a summer of discontent? I think commonsense will prevail.

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But one has to accept that the country is in a very difficult

:14:53.:15:00.

situation. I am made director of a number of private companies. We

:15:00.:15:04.

have all had to close the final salary schemes, because they were a

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threat to the existence of the company. The deficits grew and grew,

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and you were never in control of them. In the public sector, behind

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all these funds is the public sector. The country is in a

:15:23.:15:30.

difficult situation, no one denies that. But we are now in a country

:15:30.:15:37.

where the average pay of a FTSE 100 chief-executive is now nearly �3.8

:15:37.:15:43.

million. When you were in business, the ratio was 40-1. Chief

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executives earned 40 times more than the average worker. Today it

:15:47.:15:52.

is 150 times. In that situation, why would you make people earning

:15:52.:15:58.

less pay? You are not going to get me defending big City salaries. I

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cannot imagine what Mrs Thatcher would have said about some of the

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salaries that are being taken. you get my point. I do, and it

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seems to me that the capitalists seem determined to destroy

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capitalism. It is a most peculiar attitude. And the politicians have

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Let me ask Ian before we go, had you see it panning out in the next

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couple of months? There are still negotiations Turk be had and they

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will be difficult, tough negotiations -- negotiations to be

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had. But if local government understands that they are fully

:16:41.:16:46.

funded, and yes, they're always difficulties with the stock market

:16:46.:16:50.

because of the investments in shares, but I do think there is an

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opportunity to get round the table and sort this out. I do worry that

:16:54.:16:59.

the government are unwilling to get the settlement that everyone will

:17:00.:17:07.

be happy with. Iain McNicol, come back and see us. He is not going

:17:07.:17:15.

anywhere. Why is he stain? There is a very interesting bit coming up.

:17:15.:17:18.

Well, it's a big Wednesday for Ed Miliband. His performance at last

:17:18.:17:20.

week's Prime Minister's questions was widely criticised. And since

:17:20.:17:25.

then it's seemingly gone from bad to worse. We've had the 'we're-not-

:17:25.:17:27.

plotting-against-Tony-Blair really' files, and worse - accusations that

:17:27.:17:34.

he didn't get drunk at university. What a weirdo! He spent most of his

:17:34.:17:37.

time - apparently - deciding which chocolate bar to buy from the

:17:37.:17:40.

college tuck shop. Well, he's got an equally difficult decision to

:17:40.:17:45.

make today. What to go on at PMQs. But we're kind people here at the

:17:45.:17:55.
:17:55.:17:59.

Daily Politics. We have made this. Hold this. Is this all for me?

:17:59.:18:04.

have glued a number of category to a number of chocolate bars, and

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since we do not have Ed Miliband, we have is representative on earth,

:18:07.:18:16.

Hazel. Will he go on it welfare? Will he go on family-friendly

:18:16.:18:23.

policies? Will he go on strike? Inflation? Will he go on the

:18:23.:18:33.
:18:33.:18:33.

plodding? Leadership? The economy. I am glad we rehearsed this.

:18:33.:18:43.
:18:43.:18:47.

Deficit? So, hazel, which one? Quickly. Pick a bar. I will go for

:18:47.:18:53.

those too. The NHS and the economy. A we will discuss this a bit more

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seriously. Because he has had a turbulent time with his leadership,

:19:00.:19:05.

Ian McNicol, and the GMB really worked hard for him to be installed,

:19:05.:19:10.

but they have really gone off him. When asked if they approve of his

:19:10.:19:13.

style of leadership, they could not even bring themselves to raise

:19:13.:19:18.

their hand at the conference. think it was bad state of could do

:19:18.:19:23.

better. That was put to the audience, and everyone thought he

:19:23.:19:29.

could do better. Are you going off him? No, the media story is about

:19:29.:19:33.

David Cameron and Nick Clegg and he is in a difficult position to break

:19:33.:19:37.

through. What he needs to do is pick two or three issues and get

:19:37.:19:41.

out and about round the country and talk to people on the doorstep and

:19:41.:19:45.

in their constituencies and in their workplaces. When all the

:19:45.:19:51.

talking is said and done, is he up to the job? I think so. He is

:19:51.:19:56.

really up to the job. We have this book being serialised in one of the

:19:56.:20:01.

national newspapers which talks of the way the party responded and

:20:01.:20:05.

await his brother responded to him to declare his attention to stand.

:20:05.:20:08.

How much damage does it do when you hear that people are smacking their

:20:08.:20:14.

heads on the table, saying, David, go and hit him. I was told that

:20:14.:20:17.

book was sent back by the newspaper because it wasn't sexy enough and

:20:17.:20:22.

they were told to get more gossip in it, so that is the level of this

:20:22.:20:26.

debate. But you will acknowledge there was deep discomfort at the

:20:26.:20:30.

time, and there is a different kind of discomfort because people are

:20:30.:20:35.

saying he's not landing punches. Everybody wants to rake over the

:20:35.:20:40.

entrails of last year's events. I think it is time we moved on.

:20:41.:20:46.

rage over last week's entrails. His performance at PMQs was lacklustre.

:20:46.:20:51.

We to acknowledge that? A I think everyone would acknowledge that he

:20:51.:20:54.

not -- had not given a great performance. A if you go over last

:20:54.:20:59.

week, you had a fine speech on Monday when he set out the centre

:20:59.:21:02.

ground and the fact we needed people to take responsibility at

:21:02.:21:06.

the top and bottom. That was a very good speech and he did break

:21:06.:21:14.

Putting partisan politics to one side, does it matter if he is not

:21:14.:21:20.

good at PMQs, if he can deliver that kind of speech? There is a

:21:20.:21:26.

danger that new leaders always have difficulties establishing

:21:26.:21:31.

themselves. I remember one party chairman when Edward Heath was

:21:31.:21:37.

Prime Minister, every year at the party conference it was make or

:21:37.:21:42.

break for Ted Heath. And Lord Hailsham said, look, if you plant a

:21:42.:21:48.

tree or a shrub and you pull it up every week to see if the roots are

:21:48.:21:54.

striking, they never strike. So having chosen him, you have to get

:21:54.:22:02.

behind him. And he won those three elections out of four. You would

:22:02.:22:05.

maybe not be surprised to know that I was delighted it was him, because

:22:05.:22:10.

I think there is a gap between him and the public. They find him at a

:22:10.:22:17.

mysterious figure. And the second thing is, it is very difficult to

:22:17.:22:20.

lead 8 parliamentary party where the parliamentary party did not

:22:20.:22:27.

want to. So he has his own peculiar problems. You say PMQs is not as

:22:27.:22:31.

important, but it is the window into his leadership. For most

:22:31.:22:35.

people watching at home, they will see that on the news and hear bits

:22:35.:22:40.

of that on the driving to work. And if he is not effective there, how

:22:40.:22:45.

will they bridge the gulf? It is important because it is what most

:22:45.:22:49.

ordinary people see on their televisions on a Wednesday. He has

:22:49.:22:53.

had some really good PMQs. You will have some occasions when it is not

:22:53.:22:57.

perfect, and he really did score against David Cameron on the NHS.

:22:57.:23:03.

He got David Cameron to lose his temper at PMQs. I thought that was

:23:03.:23:08.

a fantastic performance. So he is comfortable then? How long has he

:23:08.:23:15.

got to settle into the job? How long will he be the new boy? It is

:23:15.:23:20.

less than a year since he became the leader. Difficult circumstances,

:23:20.:23:24.

the worst election result since 1983. He has to rebuild the party

:23:24.:23:27.

and show we have changed. It is a big job and I think he deserves

:23:27.:23:33.

support. What you want him to go on today at PMQs? I think he needs to

:23:33.:23:40.

get stuck into the NHS, have a go at Cameron and Clegg. Even the

:23:40.:23:44.

water down blueprint of Andrew Lansley? Yes, I think it is an

:23:44.:23:49.

opportunity. You have people standing back and saying that they

:23:49.:23:52.

have listened, but that does not resonate with people. I am not

:23:52.:23:56.

convinced that the party has really listened anyway. We will leave it

:23:56.:24:02.

there. Are you saying that too loyal Labour journalist sexed up

:24:02.:24:09.

their book to please the Mail on Sunday? Loyal Labour journalist? Do

:24:09.:24:16.

those words computer? There might be the odd one. -- to those words

:24:16.:24:25.

Now - it's time for a health warning. In fact you're health and

:24:25.:24:29.

safety is our first priority. Unlike some in the profession, they

:24:29.:24:32.

followed the Prime Minister and deputy PM onto a hospital ward

:24:32.:24:41.

yesterday and got this ticking off from a consultant. Just a minute. I

:24:41.:24:44.

am a senior consultant in the department. While we told to walk

:24:44.:24:54.
:24:54.:24:55.

around like this -- Why are we told to walk around like this? I am not

:24:55.:25:05.
:25:05.:25:08.

That photo-shoot went pretty well! Cecil, this is not going to hurt at

:25:08.:25:13.

all. Well, we take no such risks here so you are quite safe

:25:13.:25:17.

competing for one of our completely sterile Daily Politics mugs.

:25:17.:25:23.

will remind you how to enter, but less see if you can remember when

:25:23.:25:33.
:25:33.:26:02.

# "Just A Little Bit" - Liberty X but sometimes I feel like I want to

:26:02.:26:09.

crawl away and hide, but I won't. just don't think I'm as good at it

:26:09.:26:16.

as I was at my other job. prosecutor verses Slobodan

:26:16.:26:22.

Milosevic. No one is above the law or above the reach of international

:26:22.:26:32.
:26:32.:26:34.

My mother always said, are you eating pretzels? Chew them before

:26:34.:26:44.
:26:44.:26:50.

So, if you want to be within a chance of winning one of these

:26:50.:26:56.

beautiful things, send your answer to the e-mail address. For terms

:26:56.:27:02.

and conditions, they are on our website. Did you notice they took

:27:02.:27:09.

all the chocolate away? That was in a nanosecond. I am worried that you

:27:09.:27:14.

have touched the glove -- the market without your gloves on.

:27:14.:27:18.

is coming up to midday, so let's take a look at Big Ben, as we

:27:18.:27:22.

always do. Not a great deal out there, but it is looking clear. It

:27:22.:27:26.

can only mean one thing, Prime Minister's questions in a few

:27:26.:27:34.

minutes. And we also have some Let's play a part of the build up.

:27:34.:27:39.

It is all on a Ed Miliband. Absolutely. The reason last week

:27:39.:27:43.

was so important is that the government is in a bit of a mess.

:27:43.:27:47.

There are you turns on dustbins, health, sentencing. And there was

:27:48.:27:50.

an expectation ahead of last Wednesday that Ed Miliband would

:27:50.:27:56.

bring these things together and land a punch, but he didn't. It was

:27:56.:28:00.

the fact he underperformed to expectations. There was an audible

:28:00.:28:06.

deflation from his own side and he failed to really pin up the story

:28:06.:28:10.

on the Prime Minister and let himself become a target of media

:28:10.:28:13.

criticism and sniping from backbenchers. So today, what he has

:28:13.:28:18.

to do, his land a punch. Pick a subject, possibly the NHS although

:28:18.:28:23.

dustbins is a great subject. And try to explain to the public, who

:28:23.:28:26.

don't like Prime Minister's Questions that much, why the

:28:26.:28:33.

government is not functioning as it should. The public like PMQs and

:28:33.:28:37.

they do not like it when it is quite. Every time the Speaker says

:28:37.:28:42.

they should be quiet, we get e-mail saying they like the argy-bargy.

:28:42.:28:47.

But from a party leader point of view, it has to be professional.

:28:47.:28:51.

What line would you take on the NHS? There is a general sense in

:28:51.:28:54.

the country that the government has been all over the place on it and

:28:54.:29:01.

the coalition's divided on it. But all of this talk of GP

:29:01.:29:04.

commissioning and abolition of primary care trusts and that there

:29:04.:29:07.

will be health senates and we are getting rid of strategic health

:29:07.:29:14.

authorities, I would suggest that for most people, including me...

:29:14.:29:18.

There is a line I would and wouldn't take. I wouldn't take the

:29:18.:29:22.

line of privatising the NHS, because David Cameron will say that

:29:22.:29:25.

they are implementing the rules that your government starting. The

:29:25.:29:29.

line I would take is waiting lists. You have to have some retail

:29:29.:29:36.

politics'. That is about patients. In his speech the Prime Minister

:29:36.:29:39.

gave an unspecific pledge that waiting lists might rise, so that

:29:39.:29:45.

will resonate with people at home. We may be going over win a second.

:29:45.:29:50.

What would you advise Mr Miliband to do? I would advise him to be

:29:50.:29:53.

passionate and angry on behalf of the British people. They want to

:29:53.:29:57.

hear him standing up and pinning the blame on the Prime Minister and

:29:57.:30:02.

also asked him why it costs �800 million for the NHS reorganisation.

:30:02.:30:07.

The that is the price ticket. complete waste of money. It is

:30:07.:30:12.

unbelievable. You have been part of a big reforming government, Cecil.

:30:12.:30:16.

They want to reform the education system big time, cut the deficit as

:30:16.:30:21.

it has never been cut before, so was it wise to also come with a

:30:21.:30:31.

major reform of the NHS? The NHS is something where each party has

:30:31.:30:34.

identified the same answer. When I was in the Cabinet we talked about

:30:34.:30:41.

the internal market. Labour or abolish it then brought it back.

:30:41.:30:45.

Tony Blair said it was conservative and got rid of it, but then seven

:30:45.:30:50.

years later he goes back to where we were. The question was whether

:30:50.:30:54.

it was wise to go in for radical reform on top of all the other

:30:54.:30:57.

things, especially since we were not prepared for it? I think it is

:30:57.:31:05.

necessary. It is a huge burden, but a necessary burden, but a colossal

:31:05.:31:10.

burden for the taxpayer. And there is huge waste. In the manifesto you

:31:10.:31:14.

said there would be no more top down reorganisation of the NHS and

:31:14.:31:21.

you are doing all of this. It is unusual to be criticised for

:31:21.:31:25.

getting on with the policy that you didn't promise. Most of the

:31:25.:31:29.

criticism comes from not implementing policies that you did.

:31:29.:31:37.

There was a bit of tap dancing know. This looks pretty much like top

:31:37.:31:41.

down reorganisation, if he walks and talks like that. There is a

:31:41.:31:44.

massive centralisation of the power they would give away. On the one

:31:44.:31:47.

hand the public say they do not want reorganisation because they

:31:47.:31:52.

don't trust politicians, but we had some polling this week that

:31:52.:31:56.

suggested that the public for their big problems with the NHS. We are

:31:56.:32:05.

This morning I had a meeting with colleagues and others. Initial to

:32:05.:32:10.

know why duties, I shall have further meetings later.

:32:10.:32:16.

Thousands of people in my constituency work hard at for less

:32:16.:32:20.

than �26,000 a year. Does my right honourable friend agree with me

:32:20.:32:26.

that everybody who believes in the necessity of capping benefits must

:32:26.:32:34.

vote for the Welfare Reform Bill tonight? My honourable friend is

:32:34.:32:38.

right. We are right to reform welfare. Welfare costs have got out

:32:38.:32:44.

of control in our country. We want to make sure that work always pays.

:32:44.:32:48.

We want to make sure that if people do the right thing, we are on their

:32:48.:32:52.

side. It cannot be right for some families to get over �26,000 a year

:32:52.:32:56.

in benefits that is paid for by people who are working hard and pay

:32:56.:33:01.

their taxes. Everyone in the House should support the welfare bill

:33:01.:33:05.

tonight. It is disappointing that Labour talk about welfare, but will

:33:05.:33:15.
:33:15.:33:19.

not vote for welfare reform. THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband.

:33:19.:33:24.

Mr Speaker, when the Prime Minister signed off his welfare bill, did he

:33:24.:33:29.

know that it would make 7000 cancer patients worse off by as much as

:33:29.:33:37.

�94 a week? That is not the case. We are using the same definition of

:33:37.:33:40.

people who are suffering and are terminally ill as the last

:33:40.:33:44.

government. We want to make sure those people are helped and

:33:44.:33:49.

protected. If you are in favour of welfare reform, you want to

:33:49.:33:52.

encourage people to do the right thing, it is no good talking about

:33:52.:33:57.

it, you have to vote for it. usual, he does not know what is in

:33:57.:34:06.

his own bill. Listen to Macmillan Cancer Support. On 13th June 2011 -

:34:06.:34:11.

cancer patients to lose up to �94 a week. These are people who have

:34:11.:34:15.

worked hard all their lives, who have done the right thing, who have

:34:15.:34:19.

paid their taxes. And when they are indeed, the Prime Minister is

:34:19.:34:25.

taking money away from him. I ask him again, how can it be right that

:34:25.:34:33.

people with cancer, 7000 of them, are losing �94 a week? We are using

:34:33.:34:40.

the same test as the last government supported. All we see

:34:41.:34:44.

here is a Labour Party desperate not to support welfare reform, and

:34:44.:34:49.

try to find an excuse to get off supporting welfare reform. Anyone

:34:49.:34:53.

who is terminally ill get immediate access to the higher level of

:34:53.:34:58.

support. We will provide that to all people who are unable to work.

:34:58.:35:03.

That is the guarantee we make. He has to stop reading of his

:35:03.:35:07.

responsibilities and back the welfare reform he talks about.

:35:07.:35:12.

Speaker, he doesn't know the detail of his own bill. Let me explain it

:35:12.:35:18.

to him. Because the Government is stopping contributory employment

:35:18.:35:24.

support allowance after one year for those in work-related activity,

:35:25.:35:33.

cancer patients, 7000 of them, are losing �94 a week. I ask him again,

:35:33.:35:42.

how can that be right? Order. The question has been asked. Order.

:35:43.:35:49.

Order. The answer will be heard. is wrong on the specific point.

:35:49.:35:54.

First of all, our definition of terminally ill is the same one used

:35:54.:36:01.

by the last government. Anyone out of work will be given the extra

:36:01.:36:04.

support that comes from employment support allowance, irrespective of

:36:04.:36:10.

a person's income or assets. That will last for 12 months. He is

:36:10.:36:15.

wrong, and he should admit it. On a means-tested basis, this additional

:36:15.:36:19.

support can last indefinitely. That is the truth. He should check his

:36:19.:36:24.

facts before he comes to the house and chickens out of welfare reform.

:36:24.:36:28.

Let's be clear about this. In the first answer, he said his policy

:36:28.:36:33.

was the same as the last government. Now he has admitted that they are

:36:34.:36:37.

ending contributory best employment support allowance after one year.

:36:38.:36:44.

Let me tell him what Macmillan Cancer Support says. I think they

:36:44.:36:54.

should listen. This is what they are saying. I think it is a

:36:54.:36:58.

disgrace that Conservative members are shouting while we are talking

:36:58.:37:07.

about people with cancer. This is what they say. Many people will

:37:07.:37:11.

lose this benefit simply because they have not recovered quickly

:37:11.:37:15.

enough. Mr Speaker, asking the question again, will he now admit

:37:15.:37:22.

that 7000 cancer patients are losing up to �94 a week? Let me

:37:22.:37:28.

explain it again to him. I do not think he has got the point. Order.

:37:28.:37:34.

Order. I think it is a disgrace that members on both sides of the

:37:34.:37:37.

house are shouting their heads off when matters of the most serious

:37:37.:37:42.

concern are being debated. I repeat what I have said before. The public

:37:42.:37:48.

despise this sort of behaviour. Let's have a bit of order. This is

:37:48.:37:52.

important, and I want to explain to the honourable gentleman why he has

:37:52.:37:57.

got it wrong and what we are proposing is right. The definition

:37:57.:38:01.

of who is terminally ill, these are horrible things to discuss, but let

:38:01.:38:07.

me explain. It is the same definition, six months. Anyone out

:38:07.:38:10.

of work who lives longer than that will be given the extra support

:38:10.:38:15.

that comes from employment support allowance. That is irrespective of

:38:15.:38:21.

a person's income or their assets, and will last for 12 months, not

:38:21.:38:24.

the six months that the Leader of the Opposition said. On a means-

:38:24.:38:28.

tested basis, this additional support can last indefinitely. It

:38:28.:38:33.

is the same test as the last government. It is put in place

:38:33.:38:38.

fairly. We have listened to Macmillan Cancer Support, and we

:38:38.:38:41.

have made sure someone is reviewing all the medical tests that take

:38:41.:38:45.

place under the system. I know he wants to create a distraction from

:38:45.:38:49.

the fact that he will not support welfare reform, but I have answered

:38:49.:38:53.

his question. He should now answer mind - why will you not back the

:38:53.:38:58.

bill? In case he had forgotten, I asked the questions, and he fails

:38:58.:39:05.

to answer them. Let me try and explain it to him. Listen to

:39:05.:39:09.

professor Jane Mayer, chief medical officer or of Macmillan Cancer

:39:09.:39:13.

Support. "in my experience, one year is simply not long enough for

:39:13.:39:18.

many people to recover from cancer. The serious physical and

:39:18.:39:21.

psychological side-effects can last for many months, even years after

:39:21.:39:24.

treatment has finished. It is crucial that patients are not

:39:24.:39:29.

forced to return to work before they are ready". Macmillan Cancer

:39:29.:39:33.

Support and Britain's cancer charities have been making this

:39:33.:39:36.

argument for months. I am amazed that the Prime Minister does not

:39:36.:39:39.

know about this argument. Why doesn't he know about these

:39:39.:39:43.

arguments? The House of Commons is voting on this bill tonight. He

:39:43.:39:48.

should know about these arguments. I ask him again, will he now admit

:39:48.:39:54.

that 7000 cancer patients are losing up to �94 a week? I have

:39:54.:39:59.

answered his question three times. With a full explanation. The whole

:39:59.:40:04.

point about our benefit reforms is that there are proper medical tests.

:40:04.:40:09.

So we support those who cannot work as a generous and compassionate

:40:09.:40:14.

country should, but we make sure those who can work have to go out

:40:14.:40:18.

to work so that we do not reward bad behaviour. He is attempting to

:40:18.:40:22.

put up a smokescreen, because he has been found out. He made a

:40:22.:40:25.

speech this week about the importance of welfare reform, but

:40:26.:40:30.

he cannot take his divided party with him. That is what this is

:40:30.:40:39.

about, weak leadership of a divided party. Mr Speaker, what an absolute

:40:39.:40:44.

disgrace to describe cancer patients in this country as a

:40:44.:40:49.

smokescreen. This is about cancer charities who are concerned on

:40:49.:40:53.

their behalf, and he does not know his own policy. It is not about

:40:53.:40:57.

those who are terminally ill, it is about those recovering from cancer

:40:57.:41:02.

who are losing support as a result of this government. We know he does

:41:02.:41:06.

not think his policies through. Isn't this one occasion when if

:41:06.:41:12.

ever there was a case to pause, listen and reflect, this is it. Why

:41:12.:41:19.

doesn't he do so? This week, we have seen the honourable gentleman

:41:19.:41:26.

get on the wrong side of every issue. If it is cutting the deficit,

:41:26.:41:33.

we now have these CBI, the IMF, his brother, Tony Blair, all on our

:41:33.:41:38.

side and only he is on his own. On welfare reform, we have everyone

:41:38.:41:42.

recognises that welfare needs to be reformed, apart from the right

:41:42.:41:47.

honourable gentleman. On the health service, yes, we now have the Royal

:41:47.:41:50.

College of GPs, the Royal College of Nurses, the Royal College of

:41:50.:41:53.

Physicians, the former Labour Health Minister and Tony Blair all

:41:53.:41:57.

on the side of reform. And on his own, the right honourable gentleman,

:41:57.:42:02.

a weak leader of a divided party. That is what we have learned this

:42:02.:42:12.
:42:12.:42:21.

Prime Minister, Mike constituent's mother, a British national, on a

:42:21.:42:25.

recent visit to India, was kidnapped and then beheaded in a

:42:25.:42:29.

horrendous murder incident. Can I ask the British Government to urge

:42:29.:42:33.

the Indian authorities to carry out a fall and transparent and thorough

:42:33.:42:36.

investigation and bring to account those responsible for this

:42:36.:42:40.

horrendous murder so that my constituents and his family can get

:42:40.:42:45.

justice for their mother? understand why my honourable friend

:42:45.:42:50.

wants to raise this case. On behalf of the house, we send our

:42:50.:42:53.

condolences to the family. I understand their wish for justice

:42:53.:42:56.

to be brought to bear on the perpetrators. The Foreign Office

:42:56.:43:00.

has been providing the family with consular support, and they will

:43:00.:43:03.

arrange to meet my right honourable friend and the family to see what

:43:03.:43:07.

further assistance we can give. However, responsibility for

:43:07.:43:10.

investigating crime committed overseas has to rest with the

:43:11.:43:14.

police and judicial authorities in that country. We cannot interfere

:43:14.:43:20.

in the processes, but I take to heart the points he makes.

:43:20.:43:24.

Speaker, we know that the deficit was the price paid to avoid a

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:37.

depression caused by... Are caught by the bankers. But in March, the

:43:37.:43:42.

forecast for the budget deficit was increased by �46 billion, �1,000

:43:42.:43:49.

per person. Will he now at last accept that cuts are choking growth,

:43:49.:43:52.

that that is stoking inflation, and both are increasing the deficit? He

:43:52.:43:56.

is going too far, too fast, hindering and not helping the

:43:56.:44:03.

recovery. Yes or no? The deficit is the price paid for Labour's

:44:03.:44:13.
:44:13.:44:13.

profligacy in office. Tony Blair in his memoirs, I know they do not

:44:13.:44:17.

want to hear about Tony Blair any more, funny, that. He was a Labour

:44:17.:44:22.

leader who used to win elections. He said that by 2007, spending was

:44:22.:44:28.

out of control. We have to get on top of debt and spending and the

:44:28.:44:32.

deficit. I understand that the Labour leader is trying to persuade

:44:32.:44:40.

the shadow Chancellor of that. Good The Prime Minister will be aware

:44:40.:44:44.

that yesterday was the anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland

:44:44.:44:54.
:44:54.:45:01.

Sees the United States will he remind the President that they will

:45:01.:45:05.

never be acceptable to her Majesty's government, and if the

:45:05.:45:09.

special relationship means anything, it means that they defend British

:45:09.:45:16.

sovereign treat -- sovereignty over our own territory. He makes an

:45:16.:45:20.

excellent point and I'm sure everybody will want to remember the

:45:20.:45:23.

anniversary of the successful retaking of the Falkland Islands

:45:23.:45:27.

and the superb bravery and courage of all our armed forces who took

:45:27.:45:32.

part in that action. We should also remember those that fell in terms

:45:32.:45:36.

of taking back the Falklands. The point he makes is a good one. What

:45:36.:45:41.

I would say is this, as long as the Falkland Islands want to be a

:45:41.:45:46.

sovereign British territory, they should remain so. End of story.

:45:46.:45:50.

This week we have seen the government changed its mind on the

:45:50.:45:55.

NHS, and sentencing, student visas and dustbin collection, so will the

:45:55.:45:58.

Prime Minister tell us now whether the Prime Minister will change his

:45:58.:46:04.

mind on a government plans to force women to wait up to two years

:46:04.:46:09.

longer before they qualify for their state pensions? All parties

:46:09.:46:13.

supported the equalisation of the pension age between men and women.

:46:13.:46:16.

That needed to happen. It also needs to happen that we raise

:46:16.:46:20.

pension ages to make sure the pension system is affordable.

:46:20.:46:25.

Appoint a would make is because we have been able to do that, we have

:46:25.:46:29.

really into pensions back to earnings, and pensioners are

:46:29.:46:31.

�15,000 better off in their retirement than they would have

:46:31.:46:34.

been under Labour. I think that is a good deal and the right thing to

:46:34.:46:38.

do. If anyone in the party opposite wants to be serious about pension

:46:38.:46:48.
:46:48.:46:49.

reform and dealing with the deficit, I agree with the government's

:46:49.:46:53.

timetable for increasing the men's state pension age to 66, because it

:46:53.:46:57.

happens gradually. But I would ask the Prime Minister to think again

:46:57.:47:04.

about women's state pension age. The timetable has women's state

:47:04.:47:08.

pension age going up too quickly and leaves women of my age, born in

:47:08.:47:13.

1954, without enough time to plan for what could be two years extra

:47:13.:47:17.

work. Will the Government please look at this again? I understand

:47:17.:47:22.

the concerns about this. But I said in the House last week that over 80

:47:22.:47:27.

% of those affected will only see their pension age come in one year

:47:27.:47:31.

later. So it is actually a very relatively small number. But the

:47:31.:47:36.

key thing is making sure that the pension system is sustainable so we

:47:36.:47:40.

can pay out higher pensions. There is a similar argument that the

:47:40.:47:43.

house was having in the previous set of questions about the

:47:43.:47:46.

sustainability of public sector pensions. We have to take these

:47:46.:47:50.

difficult decisions. They are right for the long term and they mean a

:47:50.:47:55.

better pension system for those who are retiring. Does the Prime

:47:55.:47:58.

Minister agree with the Institute for Fiscal Studies that with

:47:58.:48:02.

inflation at 4.5 %, more than twice the government target, it is

:48:02.:48:06.

hitting pensioners and lower income families the hardest? The point

:48:06.:48:09.

about pensions is there is the triple guarantee that they will go

:48:09.:48:15.

up by earnings or 2.5 %, or whichever is higher, so it won't

:48:15.:48:18.

affect them in that way. We clearly want to see inflation come down.

:48:18.:48:22.

There is a shared agreement across the House that it is right for the

:48:22.:48:25.

Bank of England to have the responsibility. I notice he does

:48:25.:48:28.

not raise today the welcome news that we have seen the biggest fall

:48:28.:48:32.

in unemployment in one month figures than we have seen at any

:48:32.:48:36.

time in a decade. I think it is time the party opposite started

:48:36.:48:42.

welcoming that good news. There is increasing concern within the house

:48:42.:48:47.

and across the country about the hidden suffering of traffic to

:48:47.:48:50.

children and re- trafficked children. Does the Prime Minister

:48:50.:48:54.

agree that it is essential that a co-ordinated, multi-agency approach

:48:54.:48:58.

across the country from borders to local authorities and local police

:48:58.:49:01.

forces, including the excellent charitable organisations involved

:49:01.:49:06.

in the work, is promoted urgently? My Honourable Friend makes

:49:06.:49:10.

extremely good point and I know how hard the party works on this group.

:49:10.:49:15.

I listen very carefully on what they have to say. One thing that I

:49:15.:49:17.

hope will make a difference is the formation of the National crime

:49:17.:49:21.

agency which should bring a greater co-ordination to vital issues such

:49:21.:49:27.

as this. The SNP won a landslide in the

:49:27.:49:31.

recent elections and the mandate to improve the powers of the Scottish

:49:31.:49:35.

parliament. So will the Prime Minister respect the Scottish

:49:35.:49:39.

electorate and accept the six proposals for improvement in the

:49:39.:49:43.

Scotland Bill by the Scottish government? For we listened very

:49:43.:49:47.

carefully to what people have to say and week of course respect that

:49:47.:49:51.

the SNP won the mandate in Scotland and we are responding positively.

:49:51.:49:55.

But the first point I would make is that the Scotland Bill before the

:49:55.:49:59.

house is a massive extension of devolution. He shakes his head, but

:49:59.:50:04.

is an extra �12 billion of spending power. We will go ahead with that

:50:04.:50:08.

and look at the proposals that Alex Salmond has had. I take the respect

:50:08.:50:12.

agenda seriously, but it is a two- way street. A street in which I

:50:12.:50:15.

respect the views of the Scottish people, but they also have to

:50:15.:50:19.

respect we are still part of, and will always be part of, I believe,

:50:19.:50:26.

a United Kingdom. Last Friday was the 9th anniversary of the British

:50:26.:50:30.

Legion, and on Tuesday, 120 soldiers from the Air assault

:50:30.:50:33.

Brigade will march into Parliament to welcome them back from

:50:33.:50:37.

Afghanistan. Can have a Prime Minister repeat his assurance that

:50:37.:50:42.

the armed forces covenant will be rewritten for the first time in

:50:42.:50:46.

history and written into law? give that assurance and I'm

:50:46.:50:49.

delighted that the Royal British Legion have agreed an approach we

:50:49.:50:52.

will take in the Armed forces Bill and that is being passed through

:50:52.:50:56.

the house. I am glad that the forced -- House of Commons will be

:50:56.:50:59.

welcoming the soldiers from the Brigade as the rest of the armed

:50:59.:51:02.

forces, the bravest of the brave, the best of the best, there isn't

:51:02.:51:05.

too much we can do for the people, which is why the armed forces

:51:05.:51:09.

covenant matters and why we kept our promise Stoop double the

:51:09.:51:15.

operational allowance to soldiers serving in Afghanistan. Millions of

:51:15.:51:19.

our constituents are once more facing big increases in their gas

:51:19.:51:22.

and electricity bills. Many will find it very difficult to make ends

:51:22.:51:27.

meet. What action will the government take to help them?

:51:27.:51:32.

are taking a range of actions. Obviously, the fact we have or oil

:51:32.:51:37.

costing $115 per barrel and gas prices rising by 15 % over a year,

:51:37.:51:42.

that has an impact, but we are putting �250 million into the warm

:51:42.:51:46.

home discount and funding a more targeted warm front scheme that

:51:46.:51:51.

will help 47,000 families this year. We are legislating so social

:51:51.:51:55.

tariffs have to offer the best prices available. We are keeping a

:51:55.:51:58.

promise to say that Post Office card account holders should get a

:51:58.:52:03.

discount. We are keeping the winter fuel payment. And we have

:52:03.:52:05.

permanently increase the cold weather payments. We didn't just

:52:05.:52:08.

allow him to be increased in an election year. We are keeping the

:52:08.:52:14.

higher payments that are very valuable to his constituents.

:52:14.:52:19.

week my Honourable Friend the Member for Stoke visited a school

:52:19.:52:25.

near Stafford. In meetings, parents expressed the excellent teaching --

:52:25.:52:28.

gratitude for the excellent teaching but also of a provision of

:52:28.:52:31.

their children after the age of 19. Knowing his deep concern in the

:52:31.:52:37.

area, what encouragement can my right honourable friend give them?

:52:37.:52:41.

We have to support special schools. The pendulum again special

:52:41.:52:44.

education swung too far against inclusion, and it is important we

:52:44.:52:47.

give parents and carers proper choices to make sure they can

:52:47.:52:51.

choose between mainstream and special education. He raises the

:52:51.:52:54.

important point that many parents of disabled children when they

:52:54.:52:58.

become young adults want them to go on studying in further education

:52:58.:53:02.

colleges and elsewhere, but the current rules seem to suggest that

:53:02.:53:05.

once they have finished the course, that is it. Parents asked what we

:53:05.:53:09.

will do now and we have to find a better answer for parents who are

:53:09.:53:12.

finding their much-loved children living for much longer and want

:53:12.:53:17.

them to have a purposeful and complete life. In the face of what

:53:17.:53:22.

are crippling energy price rises, driving pensioners and one off

:53:22.:53:26.

family into fuel poverty by the thousands every day under the

:53:26.:53:32.

coalition, can I ask him, he's heat struggling with his energy bill or

:53:32.:53:35.

are any others of the 21 millionairess in his Cabinet

:53:36.:53:41.

struggling with the energy bills? And when is he going to take a

:53:41.:53:46.

personal grip of this situation? From reading the papers this week

:53:46.:53:50.

the people who seem to be coining it are the ones who worked for the

:53:50.:53:54.

last government, but there we are. Clearly fuel prices have gone up

:53:55.:54:00.

because of what has happened to World War -- world gas and oil

:54:00.:54:03.

prices, but we are serious about helping families. That is why we

:54:04.:54:06.

have frozen the council tax and a lifting one million people out of

:54:06.:54:09.

tax and a taken a set of measures to help with energy bills which I

:54:09.:54:15.

describe. We have also managed to cut petrol tax this year, paid for

:54:15.:54:20.

by the additional tax on the North Sea oil industry. I notice that

:54:20.:54:23.

while the party opposite wants to support the petrol price tax, they

:54:23.:54:29.

don't support the fuel -- increase in the North Sea oil tax.

:54:29.:54:33.

Absolutely typical of an opportunistic opposition. The Prime

:54:33.:54:37.

Minister will be aware that this week is National diabetes wheat and

:54:37.:54:41.

the theme this year is let's talk diabetes to encourage people with

:54:41.:54:45.

the condition to speak out and not feel stigmatised all worried about

:54:45.:54:50.

being discriminated against, or joked against in school or in the

:54:50.:54:58.

workplace. Would the Prime Minister please support the campaign?

:54:58.:55:02.

certainly will. And my Honourable Friend makes extremely good point,

:55:02.:55:06.

that many people with diabetes find it an embarrassingly honest and

:55:06.:55:08.

something they don't want to talk about, yet it is affecting more and

:55:08.:55:12.

more people. We have to find a way to encourage people to say that

:55:12.:55:17.

there is nothing abnormal or wrong, but we need to help people manage

:55:17.:55:19.

their diabetes, particularly because you want to see them have

:55:19.:55:23.

control over health care and spend less time in hospital if at all

:55:23.:55:27.

possible. I fully support the campaign and we have to look at the

:55:27.:55:31.

long-term cost of people getting diabetes and recognise there is a

:55:31.:55:34.

big public health agenda, particularly about exercise, that

:55:34.:55:39.

we need to get hold of. The Prime Minister will know that this is the

:55:39.:55:49.
:55:49.:55:50.

first opportunity I have had to ask him a question. I stand here fresh

:55:50.:55:54.

and full of hope, so why would give the Prime Minister one more chance

:55:54.:55:58.

to answer the question. People in my constituency and up and down the

:55:58.:56:02.

country faced enormous increases in their energy bills announced by

:56:02.:56:07.

Scottish Power. They need help now. When is the Prime Minister going to

:56:07.:56:11.

keep his promise, made in opposition, to take tough action on

:56:11.:56:18.

it excessive energy prices? As I said in answer some moments ago, we

:56:18.:56:22.

are taking action. There is only a certain amount you can do when you

:56:22.:56:27.

see fuel prices go up by as much as they have over the last year, a 50

:56:27.:56:32.

% increase in oil and gas, but we do have the warm home in Kuyt --

:56:32.:56:36.

Discount, the warm front scheme, and making sure that where there

:56:36.:56:39.

are special tariffs, companies have to offer them to their users. That

:56:39.:56:43.

makes a difference and there is the point about the Post Office card

:56:43.:56:46.

account holders who currently don't get all the discounts available to

:56:46.:56:50.

people who paid by direct debit. We are making sure they get the

:56:50.:56:54.

discount. She shakes her head, but in one year that's a lot more than

:56:54.:57:04.
:57:04.:57:08.

Would my Right Honourable friend congratulate the ladies in Ilkeston

:57:08.:57:11.

who made part of the lace on the Duchess of Cambridge's wedding

:57:12.:57:17.

dress. This is the last traditional lace factory here, and that town

:57:17.:57:20.

centre has declined in the recent years over those losses. Would my

:57:20.:57:25.

Right Honourable Friend agree with me that the review into

:57:25.:57:28.

revitalising our town centres has come at a perfect time and time by

:57:28.:57:34.

the Prime Minister to attend our constituents as part of this.

:57:34.:57:39.

would be delighted to come to the constituency. I didn't know that

:57:39.:57:42.

their constituents were responsible for the lace on the Duchess's

:57:42.:57:46.

incredible dress, but I feel I leave today's session enriched by

:57:46.:57:50.

the knowledge. We do want to see the growth in manufacturing and

:57:50.:57:54.

production in Britain, and what we are seeing in the economy,

:57:54.:57:58.

difficult as the months ahead will inevitably be, a growth of things

:57:58.:58:02.

made in Britain, whether that is cars, vans or lace for people

:58:02.:58:09.

stresses. Mr Speaker, the United States secretary of state, Robert

:58:09.:58:18.

Gates, has said - I beg your pardon, Secretary of Defence - has said

:58:18.:58:28.
:58:28.:58:30.

that the NATO operation in Libya has exposed serious security gaps.

:58:30.:58:37.

A first -- but First Sea Lord, Admiral Mark Stanhope, has said

:58:37.:58:44.

that the operation in Libya cannot be sustained for longer than three

:58:44.:58:54.
:58:54.:58:54.

months without serious cuts elsewhere. Given those problems...

:58:54.:59:04.
:59:04.:59:04.

Isn't it time that the Prime Minister reopened at the defence

:59:04.:59:10.

review and did another U-turn on his failed policies? He is called

:59:10.:59:15.

Mark Stanhope, that is his name. I had a meeting of the First Sea Lord

:59:15.:59:18.

yesterday, and he agreed we could sustain the mission as long as we

:59:18.:59:23.

need to, and that is exactly the words that the chief of defence

:59:23.:59:26.

staff used yesterday, because we are doing the right thing. I want

:59:26.:59:29.

one simple message to go out from every part of this government and

:59:29.:59:35.

every part of this House of Commons, that time is on our side. We have

:59:35.:59:39.

got NATO, the United Nations, the Arab League and we have right on

:59:39.:59:44.

our side. The pressure is building, militarily, diplomatically,

:59:44.:59:47.

politically and time is running out for Colonel Gaddafi. On the issue

:59:47.:59:51.

of the defence review, I would say this. For 10 years they haven't had

:59:51.:59:56.

a defence review, now they want to win a row. At the end of this

:59:56.:59:59.

review we have the 4th highest defence budget for any country in

:59:59.:00:03.

the world. We have superb armed forces, superbly equipped and they

:00:03.:00:13.
:00:13.:00:14.

are doing a great job in the skies By the time PMQs have finished, 450

:00:14.:00:19.

children will have died from preventable disease and famine. Is

:00:19.:00:24.

it not the case that increasing Britain's aid budget is very much

:00:24.:00:29.

the right thing to do and will save millions of lives across the world.

:00:29.:00:33.

I very much welcome the support from the Honourable Gentleman for

:00:33.:00:39.

the policy of increasing our aid budget and reaching the 0.7 %

:00:39.:00:42.

target of gross national income. I think there are good reasons for

:00:42.:00:46.

doing this. First of all, we are keeping a promise to the poorest

:00:46.:00:49.

people in the poorest countries of the world and we are saving lives.

:00:49.:00:52.

Yes, of course, things are difficult at home but I think we

:00:52.:00:56.

should keep the promise even in the midst of difficulties. The second

:00:56.:00:59.

point I would make is that we are making sure our aid budget is spent

:00:59.:01:03.

very specifically on things like that she Nations for children that

:01:03.:01:08.

will save lives. -- vaccinations. That will mean a child vaccinated

:01:08.:01:12.

every two seconds and a life saved every two minutes. The last point I

:01:12.:01:15.

would make to anyone who has doubts about this issue, is I really do

:01:15.:01:20.

think that as well as saving lives, it is also about Britain's standing

:01:20.:01:23.

for something in the world and standing up for something in the

:01:23.:01:27.

world, the importance of having a strong aid budget, mending broken

:01:27.:01:37.
:01:37.:01:37.

countries, as well as having an issue as well. In that this carer's

:01:37.:01:43.

week when we celebrate the contribution of Birmingham's care

:01:43.:01:46.

assistants and the loving families who look after their loved ones,

:01:46.:01:50.

will the Prime Minister join with me in condemning Birmingham City

:01:51.:01:57.

Council for cutting care to 4,100 of the most vulnerable in our city,

:01:57.:02:01.

branded unlawful by the High Court. Bank and I asked the Prime Minister

:02:01.:02:07.

what he intends to do to make sure that never again does Birmingham

:02:07.:02:12.

City Council fail the elderly and disabled? I think everybody in the

:02:12.:02:15.

House should welcome that it is Careys week, and I will have a

:02:15.:02:19.

reception in Number Ten tonight to celebrate that with many people who

:02:19.:02:24.

take part and are carers. This government is putting in �400

:02:24.:02:28.

million to give carers more breaks and specifically putting in �800

:02:28.:02:31.

million to make sure those looking after disabled children get regular

:02:31.:02:35.

breaks. What we have in Birmingham is an excellent Conservative and

:02:35.:02:39.

Liberal Democrat alliance doing a very good job recovering from a

:02:39.:02:49.
:02:49.:02:49.

complete mess Labour made of the Last night on Channel 4 television

:02:49.:02:52.

there was documentary called the killing fields, showing the

:02:52.:02:55.

atrocities committed by the Sri Lankan government to the Tamil

:02:55.:03:00.

people which resulted in over 40,000 people being killed. Would

:03:00.:03:03.

the Prime Minister join me in calling for justice for the Tamil

:03:03.:03:08.

people and the people who have lost their lives? I didn't see the

:03:08.:03:11.

documentary, but I understand it was an extremely powerful programme

:03:11.:03:14.

and it refers to some very worrying events that are alleged to have

:03:14.:03:19.

taken place towards the end of that campaign. And what the government

:03:19.:03:22.

has said, along with other governments, is that there should

:03:22.:03:25.

Lankan government does need this to be investigated and the UN needs

:03:25.:03:28.

this to be investigated and we need to make sure we get to the bottom

:03:28.:03:33.

of what happened. The Prime Minister will be aware of the

:03:33.:03:36.

shambles of corporate governance which is the duration at Natural

:03:36.:03:40.

Resources Corporation. I would not expect him to give specific comment

:03:40.:03:44.

on it, but would he agree on behalf of millions of pension holders and

:03:44.:03:47.

small shareholders across the country that high standards of

:03:47.:03:52.

corporate governance at the City of London is critical, as is the role

:03:52.:03:56.

of the Financial Reporting Council? I am aware of this problem and the

:03:56.:03:59.

Honourable Gentleman makes important point. We have caused

:03:59.:04:03.

want companies to come to London to access capital to float on the main

:04:03.:04:07.

market, and that is one of the attractions of Britain, that we are

:04:07.:04:09.

an open economy, but when the companies come they have to

:04:10.:04:12.

understand we have rules of corporate governance that are there

:04:12.:04:16.

for a reason and we need to obey the rules, and I'm sure the

:04:16.:04:19.

Chancellor will be addressing this not only in his speech tonight, but

:04:19.:04:29.

also in the papers we will publish in subsequent days. Mr Speaker,

:04:29.:04:33.

does the Prime Minister agree with me that if the coalition government

:04:33.:04:38.

had not adopted the economic policy that it has rather than listen to

:04:38.:04:41.

the advice of the Shadow Chancellor mortgage interest rates could be 5%

:04:41.:04:46.

higher than what they are now? Honourable Friend makes important

:04:46.:04:51.

point. In this country today, tragically, we have agreed levels

:04:51.:04:55.

of government debt that German interest rates. That is an enormous

:04:55.:04:59.

monetary boost to our economy and we should all welcome the cut in

:04:59.:05:03.

unemployment today. If we had not taken action on the deficit and

:05:03.:05:06.

proved to the markets that we had a way of paying back the debt and

:05:06.:05:16.
:05:16.:05:17.

deficit, we would be straight in Prime Minister's Questions finishes

:05:17.:05:21.

five minutes later than normal. It started two minutes later than it

:05:21.:05:26.

should have done. I think the Speaker was a lull in extra time,

:05:26.:05:31.

or maybe he needs a new watch. The Leader of the Opposition went on a

:05:31.:05:36.

specific issue of cancer patients who are under treatment and whether

:05:36.:05:42.

they continue to get a particular welfare payment or not. All six

:05:42.:05:46.

questions were taken up by that. It is a technical matter. We will

:05:46.:05:49.

speak to a representative of Macmillan Cancer Care In a moment,

:05:49.:05:53.

who originally raised this issue. And we will have a briefing on what

:05:53.:05:58.

the Government reply is. But before we go into whether Mr Mellor brand

:05:58.:06:02.

was right to go on something so specific because all eyes were on

:06:02.:06:08.

him, let's see what you thought of PMQs. John says Cameron was on the

:06:08.:06:11.

back foot. How can he say Miliband is on the wrong side of the

:06:11.:06:15.

argument when questioning the withdrawal of help from cancer

:06:15.:06:18.

patients? Another e-mail says Cameron avoided

:06:18.:06:23.

the issue today. It was a decent, if not great performance from Ed.

:06:23.:06:29.

Ivan in Cambridge seems to have written -- says we seem to have

:06:29.:06:33.

written Ed Miliband's Obituary too early. Cameron was trounced and

:06:33.:06:37.

looked flustered and foolish at the dispatch box. Some of you are

:06:37.:06:43.

getting annoyed with Ed Miliband on the cancer theme. Ed's use of

:06:43.:06:50.

cancer patients is appalling in his attempt to avoid voting on welfare

:06:50.:06:55.

reform. But hey, what did he do to his own brother? Another says I

:06:55.:07:00.

wonder what people feel about people using them as an excuse to

:07:01.:07:04.

back out of supporting much-needed welfare reform. That might be a

:07:04.:07:07.

good point to talk to Macmillan Cancer Research about, because we

:07:07.:07:12.

have the head of their campaigns here. Were you misquoted by Ed

:07:12.:07:17.

Miliband? No. We think it was a really important issue for Ed

:07:17.:07:21.

Miliband to raise. It is clear that the government had not realised

:07:21.:07:26.

that their welfare reforms will have such a big impact on cancer

:07:26.:07:31.

patients who want to work, but are not quite yet fully ready to do so.

:07:31.:07:35.

We did get in touch with the Department of Work and Pensions

:07:35.:07:39.

while all this was going on, and this was what they had to say.

:07:39.:07:44.

"people deemed too ill to work will be placed in a support group for

:07:44.:07:47.

employment support allowance. There are no requirements for these

:07:47.:07:52.

people to seek work, and the rate of the allowance they receive will

:07:52.:07:57.

not go down after a year. The Macmillan claimed would only apply

:07:57.:08:01.

to people in the Work Related Activity Book, those assessed as

:08:01.:08:07.

capable of at least some work". So it does seem as if when you are

:08:07.:08:11.

really ill, you will not be expected to work and you will not

:08:11.:08:15.

lose benefits. The at is a very technical answer from the

:08:15.:08:19.

Government, which means there are 7000 who this will apply to. There

:08:19.:08:23.

are cancer patients who will be hit under the proposals unless the

:08:23.:08:27.

Government is able to rethink them. It will be those who are recovering

:08:27.:08:33.

from cancer treatment. The people who want to work and will be able

:08:33.:08:37.

to work in the future, but not yet, because of the treatment they have

:08:37.:08:42.

had. I can't believe for a moment that the Government really

:08:42.:08:45.

understands that these people, who want to work, will be penalised to

:08:45.:08:52.

the tune of nearly �100 a week. No doubt this argument will

:08:52.:08:57.

continue as the day goes on as people try to get to grips with the

:08:57.:09:04.

issues on both sides. It seems to apply to a small number of people,

:09:04.:09:08.

although in their thousands, who are recovering from a or under

:09:08.:09:12.

treatment for cancer, but deemed still to be able to do some kind of

:09:12.:09:16.

work. The argument is what amount of welfare payment they should

:09:16.:09:23.

continue to get. Was Mr Miliband right to go on that specific issue

:09:23.:09:28.

for all six questions? I think that today will no doubt be claimed as a

:09:28.:09:32.

victory for Ed Miliband. He was passionate. The issue he picked was

:09:32.:09:37.

retail politics'. People care about this issue hugely. It is hard to

:09:37.:09:44.

argue against somebody defending cancer patients. There are very few

:09:44.:09:48.

people, David Cameron included, who would support people who are

:09:48.:09:52.

seriously ill seeing a cut in their benefit. But it was interesting

:09:52.:09:56.

that Ed Miliband did this through the whole of his entire six

:09:57.:10:01.

question stretch. And it ended up with him in a difficult place. By

:10:01.:10:05.

the end of Ed Miliband's exchanges, he was suggesting, astonishingly,

:10:05.:10:11.

that we should have a pause on the entire welfare plans. That is

:10:12.:10:17.

extraordinary. I am sure Hazelwood agree that one of Labour's problems

:10:17.:10:21.

is that people think Labour were too soft on scroungers and people

:10:21.:10:24.

who kept hold of benefits and claimed things they should not have

:10:24.:10:28.

done. And here is Ed Miliband putting himself on the other

:10:28.:10:32.

argument -- the other side of the argument on reform, calling for a

:10:32.:10:38.

pause in the week that his party is divided. So you have Ed Miliband no

:10:38.:10:42.

doubt having a victory within the Commons, but I am curious at the

:10:42.:10:48.

decision to go on that as an issue and end up calling for a rethink,

:10:48.:10:54.

given where his party is. I think he has had a good day. It was a big

:10:54.:10:58.

test, and he was passionate and angry. It was a real issue that

:10:58.:11:02.

affects people's lives, so it was right. In terms of the welfare

:11:02.:11:07.

issue, people do want us to reform welfare. They want it to be a fair

:11:07.:11:11.

system, and Ed told on Monday about taking responsibility at the top

:11:11.:11:15.

and bottom. But there are things in the welfare bill which are pretty

:11:15.:11:18.

punitive, and that is why there is a debate. But I think he did well

:11:19.:11:23.

today. Being broadly in favour of welfare reform, but disliking some

:11:23.:11:28.

of the things in the bill, is a respectable position for any a

:11:28.:11:32.

position to take. But doesn't that mean you support the principle and

:11:32.:11:36.

argue for changes at committee stage, whereas Mr Miliband has been

:11:36.:11:40.

giving the impression that he would like not to proceed with the

:11:40.:11:45.

welfare reform at all. You don't agree with that? As the committee

:11:45.:11:49.

develops, I think you will see the provisions being tested, and

:11:49.:11:54.

rightly. But I think the people of the country want us to reform

:11:54.:11:57.

welfare. But they also wanted to be fair. If you have groups like

:11:57.:12:04.

cancer sufferers who will lose �100 a week, that is not fair. On the

:12:04.:12:09.

general point of welfare reform, the arguments include people that

:12:09.:12:13.

the press called scroungers and people taking benefits they are not

:12:13.:12:17.

in part two. The more fundamental point about welfare reform is

:12:17.:12:22.

surely to remove the existing perverse incentives, where many

:12:22.:12:27.

people are better off taking welfare than going to work. That

:12:27.:12:31.

was exactly our policy, to say that in any circumstances, you will

:12:31.:12:36.

always be better off in work. We were talking about �40 a week if

:12:36.:12:41.

you were prepared to take a job. If you have a system that is so

:12:41.:12:46.

complicated, and it is, that at the margins you will lose 95p out of

:12:46.:12:50.

every pound you earn, that is not an incentives. So I support making

:12:50.:12:58.

work pay. Was welfare reform an issue too hot for Mrs Thatcher to

:12:58.:13:05.

handle at the time? I do not think so. Then why didn't the Thatcher

:13:05.:13:09.

government go with it? Well, we did. There is this myth that we did not

:13:09.:13:14.

do anything on the health service and just focused on the economy. It

:13:14.:13:18.

is untrue. You put millions on incapacity benefit instead of on

:13:18.:13:26.

unemployment benefit. That was one of our big problems. Incapacity

:13:26.:13:34.

benefit shrank alongside your record. Why didn't the Thatcher

:13:34.:13:38.

government tackle welfare reform? Not long afterwards, Bill Clinton

:13:38.:13:42.

did in the US. We had a lot of things to do when we came to power.

:13:42.:13:48.

People forget what a state the country was in. When I went to

:13:48.:13:52.

Russia as the trade minister in 1979, the Russian minister said to

:13:52.:13:57.

me, we are not going to buy any more from you. You are on strike.

:13:57.:14:04.

Your goods are never delivered on time. They are inadequate. In fact,

:14:04.:14:08.

I must tell you that we are going to buy less from you. We regard you

:14:08.:14:14.

as the sick man of Europe. Ten years later, I went to Moscow again

:14:14.:14:16.

as the Energy Secretary, and the members of the Politburo were

:14:16.:14:19.

queuing up in the hope of getting a meeting, because they saw Britain

:14:19.:14:25.

as a country that had turned itself around. But you can't do everything.

:14:25.:14:29.

Final Word From Sam. Where does this leave Mr Miliband now? Where

:14:29.:14:32.

he was before, which is still having to tackle the two big

:14:32.:14:36.

problems with Labour's reputation, firstly to repair it on the deficit

:14:36.:14:40.

and public finances, and secondly to repair their reputation on

:14:40.:14:44.

welfare reform and not being tough enough. I do not think he achieved

:14:44.:14:48.

anything on those today, although he did look competent in front of

:14:48.:14:55.

his troops. As always during Prime Minister's Questions, it is not

:14:55.:15:00.

just David Cameron and Ed Miliband who are in the spotlight. John

:15:00.:15:03.

Bercow was a controversial choice when he was elected as Speaker

:15:03.:15:06.

almost two years ago now. First, a reminder of some of his more ill-

:15:06.:15:13.

tempered interventions. Order. The Government Chief Whip has

:15:13.:15:17.

absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from a sedentary position.

:15:17.:15:24.

Order! The honourable gentleman will remain in the chamber. The

:15:24.:15:27.

right honourable gentleman has absolutely no business scurrying

:15:27.:15:37.

out of the chamber. Order! Order! The Chief Whip has no business...

:15:37.:15:41.

Order! The right honourable gentleman has known business

:15:41.:15:48.

behaving in that way. A bad example is being said by some

:15:48.:15:54.

senior members to newcomers. Order. There are far too many private

:15:54.:15:58.

conversations taking place. The public is not impressed. They want

:15:58.:16:08.
:16:08.:16:09.

Order! The minister will resume his seat. The answers have been

:16:09.:16:11.

excessively long winded and repetitive and must not happen

:16:11.:16:15.

again. I have made the position clear and I hope the minister will

:16:15.:16:19.

learn from that. So, an ill- tempered exchange with the health

:16:19.:16:28.

minister Simon Burns who was heard calling the Speaker eight stupid

:16:28.:16:31.

sanctimonious dwarf. He later issued an apology, but did he mean

:16:31.:16:37.

it? Who knows? We are joined by Bobby Friedman who has published a

:16:37.:16:41.

biography of John Bercow. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We have seen

:16:41.:16:45.

you can get angry at times and really does polarise people -- he

:16:45.:16:49.

can get angry. But he does survive through to the next election, or

:16:49.:16:54.

does he? Are I think he will survive. But as anything in

:16:54.:16:57.

politics it comes with a proviso. Because of the way John was elected,

:16:57.:17:04.

he does polarise people. When I was speaking to people for the book,

:17:04.:17:08.

they work some people who said there he was the best thing I ever

:17:08.:17:12.

met, but on the other side you have people who hate him with the real

:17:12.:17:16.

venom and a real personal venom, actually. I think John's position

:17:17.:17:20.

is a little more vulnerable than your average speaker, but only if

:17:20.:17:25.

there is a big event, and who knows what it might be. But if some event

:17:25.:17:28.

were to come up we have the kind of a powder keg building up that

:17:28.:17:31.

people would not step in to save him like they would with other

:17:31.:17:36.

speakers. But at the moment, people think, as a speaker, he is doing a

:17:36.:17:39.

good job. There is no immediate sign that people are trying to get

:17:39.:17:43.

rid of him. What is the general view of him on the Conservative

:17:43.:17:46.

backbenches? A lot of the Conservative backbenches do not

:17:46.:17:51.

like him and a lot would get rid of him tomorrow if they could. But

:17:51.:17:55.

there are others, more moderate, who were changing their view. When

:17:55.:17:58.

John was elected, one minister said to me that he had never seen

:17:58.:18:03.

anything quite so tribal within the Conservative Party as the feeling

:18:03.:18:09.

against John. Nothing has united as much as the Conservative benches

:18:09.:18:12.

have against John Bercow. But as people see how he is doing and

:18:12.:18:15.

getting more urgent questions in and getting through the order paper

:18:15.:18:19.

quicker, I think they realise he is doing quite a good job. I think

:18:19.:18:24.

that is helping. You have to remember that John Major and the

:18:24.:18:30.

government at times and I got eight text from a special adviser saying

:18:30.:18:35.

that the subject of the book was palest of expletives, but that

:18:35.:18:38.

special adviser was preparing for an urgent question that had been

:18:38.:18:41.

granted. That is what you want the Speaker to be doing and you want to

:18:41.:18:48.

hold them to account. Do we know what David Cameron thinks of John

:18:48.:18:53.

Bercow? He has never forgiven John Bercow for the attack when he was

:18:53.:19:00.

standing to be leader of the Conservative Party, he attacked his

:19:00.:19:03.

background as liking hunting and been from Eton College. It was very

:19:03.:19:07.

personal, and it was a necessary, because he was a Ken Clarke

:19:07.:19:11.

supporter, and Ken Clarke said he did not know why he did it. Cameron

:19:11.:19:15.

has stepped in to save him. He backed him in Buckingham at the

:19:15.:19:18.

last election, the constituency where he was honourable. And he

:19:18.:19:21.

also made sure that Conservative MPs did not try and get rid of him

:19:21.:19:25.

when they came back to the Commons after the election. But who knows

:19:25.:19:28.

whether Cameron would step in another time? I think there is a

:19:28.:19:32.

lasting scar, and juicy with a lot of senior Conservatives, he has

:19:32.:19:36.

stepped out of line once too often and Cameron will never forget that.

:19:36.:19:42.

But he has made quite a political journey. We have a clip from an

:19:42.:19:47.

issue of Question Time -- an edition of Question Time, from 1981.

:19:47.:19:53.

Let's see what he was like then. One more common from the audience.

:19:53.:19:57.

For Mrs Castle to describe what Mr Whitelaw said about financial

:19:57.:20:02.

assistance as economic nonsense is utterly absurd. Mrs Castle recalls

:20:02.:20:06.

in her recent book that Mr Callaghan once said that if you

:20:06.:20:10.

were a young man, he would emigrate because he did not have any answers

:20:10.:20:14.

to Britain's economic problems or any others. I would suggest took

:20:14.:20:17.

Mrs Castle that the region she sought to join the European

:20:17.:20:26.

Parliament was precisely the same. Mr Whitelaw was talking economic

:20:26.:20:32.

common sense. A very good point. that the same that man who is now

:20:32.:20:36.

the speed of the house? I think his views have changed a lot since then

:20:36.:20:43.

-- speak of the house. And his hairstyle. Be it has certainly

:20:43.:20:46.

changed for the better. But you can see that kind of energy, and when

:20:46.:20:53.

he gets his teeth into something, he will not let it go. Back in the

:20:53.:20:57.

1980s, he was very right wing and in favour of repatriating

:20:57.:21:01.

immigrants and things like that. He has done a genuine conversion over

:21:01.:21:06.

issues such as that. Now he has the same fervour over gay rights and

:21:06.:21:12.

things like that. What our guest is saying, Cecil Parkinson, is that he

:21:12.:21:16.

is the marmite speaker. You seem to love him or hate him. Is that a

:21:16.:21:21.

healthy thing for the Speaker to be? It is a fact, whether it is

:21:21.:21:25.

healthy or unhealthy, that is the situation is. Where do you come

:21:25.:21:31.

down on this? I have known John for a long time. He personally staged a

:21:31.:21:36.

riot at Essex University that I was involved in. He did not plan to

:21:36.:21:40.

stage a riot, but by the time he had finished what he was doing, we

:21:40.:21:45.

had a riot. I have kept an eye on John over many years. Tell us what

:21:45.:21:52.

happened. The week before, Teddy Taylor had been attacked by a

:21:52.:21:56.

student who smashed and it a kick into his face and cut him and the

:21:56.:22:02.

student was arrested. I was going the next week -- smashed and it

:22:02.:22:06.

paid into his face. John announced it would be a ticket only, no

:22:06.:22:13.

Labour members meeting. All the other students decided we would not

:22:13.:22:17.

getting to the room, so there were hundreds of people blocking the

:22:17.:22:23.

entrance. And we subsequently had the meeting, and we had 1,200

:22:23.:22:29.

people there. It was not a right. Do you like Marmite or not, Hazel

:22:29.:22:38.

Blears? I love the Speaker. loved the speaker? You loved the

:22:38.:22:43.

speaker? I think he is a breath of fresh air. He welcomes the new

:22:43.:22:46.

members, he gets through the business, he is about my size and

:22:46.:22:52.

we see eye-to-eye. On that shock news going across the wires of the

:22:52.:22:57.

world, that Hazel Blears is in love with the Speaker, we say goodbye to

:22:57.:23:05.

Bobby Friedman. Before we go on, we need to point out that Mike Hobday

:23:05.:23:08.

from Macmillan who spoke to us from PMQs was a Labour candidate in the

:23:08.:23:14.

last election. Just as we find these things out, we tell you them.

:23:14.:23:20.

With the country's finances still in a pretty dire Strait, should we

:23:20.:23:28.

still be paying for eye tests, bus passes? Peter Stringfellow, and

:23:28.:23:34.

even Mark not for, dire Straits, you see. It thinks that the

:23:34.:23:39.

taxpayer is already paying far too much to subsidise the over-sixties

:23:39.:23:41.

and that any increase in state funding for long-term care for the

:23:41.:23:45.

elderly which might come out in the review next month might be the

:23:45.:23:55.
:23:55.:24:00.

Turn that 60 in Britain today, and it suddenly feels like life is a

:24:00.:24:05.

beach. Free bus passes, eye tests, and winter fuel payments are all

:24:05.:24:08.

made available to you regardless of whether you are working unemployed

:24:08.:24:14.

will very rich indeed. But I don't think Britain can avoid it --

:24:14.:24:18.

afford it. Last year the old as members of the baby-boom generation

:24:18.:24:21.

began to retire. There are 17 million of them and they have

:24:21.:24:25.

better pensions, more savings and own more homes than any other age

:24:25.:24:31.

group in society, but we continue to subsidise them. A few years ago

:24:31.:24:36.

a parliamentary report found that winter fuel payments cost Britain

:24:36.:24:39.

�3 billion every year. But only 12 % of the people who get them

:24:39.:24:43.

actually need them. To me, that sounds like a terrible waste of

:24:43.:24:53.
:24:53.:24:58.

Since taking office, the coalition have cut university funding, the

:24:58.:25:01.

education maintenance allowance and even housing benefit for young

:25:01.:25:06.

people. But more than one million of them are unemployed and 25 % are

:25:06.:25:10.

still living with their parents. It sounds to me like they are the ones

:25:10.:25:12.

that need the help, especially when you consider that over the course

:25:13.:25:16.

of their tax Payne lives the younger generation will have to pay

:25:16.:25:24.

for all of those juicy benefits for the older, richer generation. Next

:25:24.:25:29.

month the deal not commission will present the Government with plans

:25:29.:25:32.

for the provision of elderly care in Britain. We do not know what

:25:32.:25:35.

they will say, but the man in charge is already indicating that

:25:35.:25:39.

he thinks that care for the elderly is the poor relation of Britain's

:25:39.:25:44.

welfare state. With so many people worried about how they will pay for

:25:44.:25:47.

care and the quality of care they receive in their old age, I

:25:47.:25:50.

understand something must be done, but my point is simple. Britain

:25:50.:25:55.

can't continue to hand out benefits to the elderly without a thought of

:25:55.:25:58.

the younger, poorer people who will have to pay for it. It is like

:25:58.:26:01.

giving one generation a big long holiday and not inviting the rest

:26:01.:26:11.
:26:11.:26:12.

So Ed Howker, what have you got against the old? I have got nothing

:26:12.:26:20.

against the old. OK. Fine, good. Isn't the reason politicians pay

:26:20.:26:26.

attention to this is that they are very involved in society?

:26:26.:26:30.

Absolutely right. So, what is wrong with that. If they are willing to

:26:30.:26:34.

pay an active part in society and those in the voting age are not, so

:26:35.:26:39.

be it? We have this thing called representative democracy, and the

:26:39.:26:42.

whole idea is that you try and govern on behalf of all people

:26:42.:26:46.

whether they voted for you or not or whether you have curried favour

:26:46.:26:52.

with them or not. My problem with this agenda which seeks to give

:26:52.:26:56.

huge swathes of benefits, often completely unnecessary ones, to an

:26:56.:27:01.

older generation, is that we have a huge quantity of young people in

:27:01.:27:05.

Britain hurting very badly and not enough is being done to address

:27:05.:27:11.

their needs. But also we talk about this all the time. There are many

:27:11.:27:14.

people in the older bracket who are hurting as well who have paid their

:27:14.:27:18.

dues, possibly 14 wars, and they have done their bit for this

:27:18.:27:24.

country. -- possibly fault in a war. Let's be polemic. You have a young

:27:24.:27:27.

generation who may be could do without this attitude that

:27:27.:27:31.

everything will come on a plate, but you have to scrimp and save

:27:31.:27:36.

like their grandparents did. course, there are complex things

:27:36.:27:39.

about how the Government approach is the idea of debt with younger

:27:39.:27:44.

people. There is a lot of talk about making them save by also

:27:44.:27:48.

making them get into debt if they want to be educated, so that is a

:27:48.:27:52.

mixed message. But there is a practical issue that young people

:27:52.:27:57.

face in the last 20 or 30 years of their working lives, a huge fiscal

:27:57.:28:01.

pressure that comes from underfunded pensions, a doubling of

:28:01.:28:06.

health care costs in the next 10 or 20 years, and there is no way

:28:06.:28:09.

whatsoever that we have thought seriously about the mechanisms that

:28:09.:28:13.

will be needed for them to pay for that whilst maintaining a good

:28:14.:28:16.

quality of a welfare system throughout the generations, and

:28:16.:28:21.

that is my problem. So perhaps they make rise up in anger and change

:28:21.:28:26.

the political system? Isn't that what democracy is about? I don't

:28:26.:28:29.

think we necessarily need a revolution. It is a very 1960s way

:28:29.:28:32.

of looking at how the young people engage in politics. It is just

:28:32.:28:39.

making sure that the basic polities address their needs. A such an

:28:39.:28:42.

interesting subject, but very squeezed because of the time. Do

:28:42.:28:49.

come back again and talk to worse. While we have been on air, the

:28:49.:28:54.

Greek banks and possibly three French banks are exposed to that

:28:54.:28:57.

debt from Greece and they could be another sovereign bank crisis.

:28:57.:29:01.

Thank you to Hazel and Cecil. No time to pick the winner for guess

:29:02.:29:06.

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