16/06/2011 Daily Politics


16/06/2011

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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Education

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Secretary wants to hundred of the worst-performing primary school sin

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England to be removed from local authority control and transformed

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into academies under different leadership.

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Ed Balls has been calling for a temporary cut in VAT to help boost

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the economy. IVF on the NHS - it's meant to be

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free for everyone, everywhere. But it's not always the case.

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Roll up your shirt sleeves, please get your woolly jumpers out because

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the Lib Dems are having an awayday than we will find out just what

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they get up to. All of that in the next half an

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hour. With us for the duration, Robert Winston. Welcome back to the

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programme. Let's talk about the economy, because the shadow

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chancellor, Ed Balls, has been delivering a speech on the very

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subject this morning. He has called for - get this - a tax cut! This is

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what he said. My suggestion to George Osborne, whilst he won't

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agree to reverse his mistaken VAT rise permanently, he should reverse

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its temporarily bed least until the economy is growing strongly again.

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By putting more money directly into people's pockets, it would boost

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consumer spending for consumers who are feeling the squeeze from rising

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prices and taxes, especially pensioners and those on low, fixed

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incomes. That was Ed Balls this morning. Just as the European

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sovereign debt crisis is reaching the peak, because countries have

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borrowed too much. Why would it be sensible for Britain to increase

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the size of its deficit? Ed Balls's. It is by reducing that you would

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increase retail spending. Retail spending is in a serious crisis at

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the moment. You would increase the deficit? You may do, but he is

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asking for it temporarily to give a boost to the economy. I think it is

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a good idea and it has been asked for in the House of Lords by a few

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distinguished economists. We still have a very weak pound. Let's stick

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to the deficit at the moment. There is no doubt a cut in VAT would

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increase the size of the deficit. A cut in VAT to 17.5% would cost

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about �12 billion. We have a deficit which is a percentage of

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our GDP, about the same as Greece. At the moment, do you know how much

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Greece has to pay in interest to get its debt away? It is a great

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deal of money. It has to pay between 16 and 26%. We pay, because

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the markets think we are getting our deficit down, we pay less than

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4%. Can you argue if we increased our deficit, if we reversed the

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deficit reduction plan, we wouldn't be paying a lot more for the debt?

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I would have to see the exact figures. It is difficult to make

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that assumption without knowing what the figures involved. Ed Balls

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is, I think pretty well aware of what that would be. He did not

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touch on that in his speech. We have a great size deficit but we

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paid German interest rates. We pay less than 4%. I really don't

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understand and there would be grateful if you could understand,

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if we increased our deficit, we would have to pay more in interest

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payments because of the bigger deficit? At the moment, people are

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paying vast sums of money we cannot afford. If we increase spending we

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would boost the economy and that is what Ed Balls is suggesting.

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will see, this debate is going to go on.

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Just as you were talking, Greek bank stocks we have been told, have

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hit 15 year lows because of the political turmoil.

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Because of the Greek banks hold a huge chunk of Greek Government debt.

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They were told to buy it. If it has to take a cut, the bank balance

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sheets will be shot. 15% interest, extraordinary. Only if you are not

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in full control of your senses! return isn't bad. It is time for

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the quiz. Since we have a science and fertility expert, we will give

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you a bit and an exam. Please don't panic, it won't have an impossible

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At the end of the show, Roberts will sort it out. He will answer it.

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It is very easy! Regular viewers of this programme,

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and I have been told there is at least three of you - will be a

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weather Government's revolutionary drive to organise public services

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in England has been driven back. Not on education, where Michael

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Gove is expanding Tony Blair's academies and introducing his own

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version of three schools. Independent schools that still

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state funded, depending on the number of pupils you can attract.

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Anita has the details. The Government's revolutionary

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drive to reform public services in England has been driven back on a

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couple of fronts. Just as comrade Lansley about it. But not in

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education. The Education Secretary Michael Gove is in fact, expanding

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the role... He is expanding the role of Tony Blair's academies and

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introducing his own free schools. Independent but state funded, as

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Andrew said. In December the Education Secretary compared

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himself to Chairman Mao. He said he was embarking on a long march to

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freedom of our education system. Promising a cultural revolution. In

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a speech to headteachers in Birmingham this morning, he laid

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out the latest thinking from his little red book. At the moment

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secondary-school so are considered failing if less than 35% of pupils

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get five GCSEs at grades A to C. This so called for target will rise

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to 50%. Schools unable to meet this target may be taken over by a

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neighbouring Academy. 60% of pupils basically reach -- reach basic

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levels of English and maths. 200 of the worst primary school as will be

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taken out of local authority control and turned into academies.

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This could involve significant change in terms of staffing and in

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some cases, the headteacher would be removed entirely. The glorious

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Revolution continues. David Blok is head of a primary school in south

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London. Fans of being with us. Is this a good idea?

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I don't think it is a very good idea. I worry about the capacity of

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good or outstanding schools to support failing schools. Parents in

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the school where I work expect to see me in the playground, expect to

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see the leadership team in the playground. Expect us to respond to

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their questions, to meet them regularly. I don't see how we can

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do this if we were having to look after a second school. I don't

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think it is about money, it is about the capacity of schools to

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run another school. I think what would happen is standards in the

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good or outstanding school would go down. If somebody asked you

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tomorrow please take over and neighbouring school which is

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struggling, you would say? I would say no, there aren't enough hours

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in the day. If we can go back to basics, why does a fine -- primary

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school fail? What happens there? think the primary reason why

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schools fail is because there aren't enough good teachers around.

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It is very, very difficult to find teachers in inner London who can

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deliver the goods. There is all sorts of reasons for this. Teachers

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can't afford to live in the inner city. I wonder about the standard

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of teacher-training. We find it very difficult to find good

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teachers. We have good teachers in the school, but at this time of

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year when we are looking for teachers for next year, it is hard.

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Schools can very, very easily dip into failure if they cannot find

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adequate staff. I would love you to stay with us because you might be

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interested in what Andrew and his panel say next.

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Little gremlins in our electronic script system. I am holding on to

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the old fashioned paper! With us now, the Conservative MP,

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chairman of the Education Select Committee, Graham Stuart. We tried

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to get a minister on, but although we could not get one, we are

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delighted we have used. You said when the Academy's Bill was going

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through last summer, not long after the coalition formed power, they

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may be rushing things. He said he would like to have longer to

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reflect on these changes, suggest changes and improvements to make

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sure there aren't any problems that have not been considered. Are they

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still rushing it? On the question of urgency, it is central. Is this

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system in need of small adjustments or does it need shock treatment?

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Are we falling behind competitors? What is the answer? We need to move

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fast. The Government did move on the passage of the Academy's bill.

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They said they would change things like special educational needs. You

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need to combine with careful consideration with a sense of

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urgency. The warning you gave last July, you wouldn't make? When you

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are trying to push the pace of changes, there is a risks that

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unforeseen and perverse consequences... I am not sure what

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you're saying, are they right to make these changes now or are they

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rushing them? Depends which changes you are talking about. These

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primary school is have been identified as failing for a long

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time. Are we going to continue accepting this? Hopefully we will

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get answers to the questions from the Government in the next few days.

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Fundamentally, are they right to say these 200 schools need external

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support and stimulus - they are. This was Shiv primary school Stiven

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more independent Academy sector, how does that alleviate the

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desperate need for more primary school places, which this country

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has. Financial Times saying we need another 140,000 extra places?

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about raising the quality, it is a different issue. What is the

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Government going to do? They are allocating from the devastated

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capital budget. Too much money was sent on monuments to political

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vanity. Huge, new schools were they put an existing schools, was a

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waste of money when there were dilapidated schools that needed

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repairing. We have a budget which has been overspent and Miss

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allocated in its use. Do you want these 200 primary schools to become

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academies? To be the praetorian guard of AC change? Do you want to

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see a lot more primary schools become academies? I am cautious

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about that. Primaries, by their nature tend to be smaller and more

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fragile, making them independent and autonomous without working out

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there is a whole series of supports around them is risky. Way you have

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200 schools which have failed repeatedly on a sustained period,

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there is a case of coming in, gathering whoever will be prepared

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to contribute... In secondary schools it is no longer just fail

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schools becoming academies. 47% of children in academies set up by

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Michael Gove, are from the richest 30% of the population. Under Labour,

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47 came from the poorest 20%. It is changing now? It is the same vision

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Tony Blair had, which is to see every school, independent school,

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secondary-school. Personally I am yet to be convinced on the primary

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issue. This did start under Tony Blair and the Tories have given it

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wings? I have a lot of time for Michael Gove, he is thinking very

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hard. There are big issues, valuing teachers more and getting more

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teachers in that are better qualified. If you look at the

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record of the academies, take south London, the Harris academies in

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Peckham and elsewhere, they have improved the educational standards.

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People who were underperforming on a performing very well. There is a

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strong case for what the Secretary of State is saying. A headteacher,

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just listening to Robert Winston, a Labour peer, he seems to think what

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Michael Gove is doing is the next logical stage which was started

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under the last Government? I am not sure how relevant and Academy is a

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four primary schools, it is a red herring. Are you not just

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frightened of the competition, you are the Establishment at the

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moment? No, my school is very oversubscribed. We're not afraid of

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competition from anybody. Primary school has are being tempted into

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becoming Academy's because their budget will go up and headteachers

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are mindful of budgets. All sorts of issues to do with governments

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and employment law which are not clear to me. We haven't decided at

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my school which way we will go. The reality is, we don't have enough

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information on which to make a Robert Winston, we are coming onto

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the issue you know a lot about. Babies, money and the National

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Health Service - there are not many issues as emotive as these. What

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happens when you roll them together? Should the state paid to

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help infertile couples have a child? Government guidelines say

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that women between the ages of 23 and 39 should be entitled to three

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cycles of IVF for free on the NHS, but it has emerged that in many

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areas, that is not being offered. Technicians at a private IVF clinic,

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doing some tricky science, but in the middle of an even tougher moral

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issue. Couples who are infertile are entitled to up to three cycles

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of IVF treatment for free on the NHS. That is the guidelines set out

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by the board who advise on the availability of healthcare, the

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National Institute for Clinical Excellence, NICE. But those are

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just guidelines. The Primary Care Trusts who administer healthcare in

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each local area are not obliged to stick to them. Across the country,

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almost three-quarters of Primary Care Trusts provide less than the

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recommended number of cycles. That is according to recent research by

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a Conservative MP. A small handful provide no IVF at all. This doctor

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at his private clinic sees some of the couples who end up paying for

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the treatment themselves. Some of them actually cry, because they

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feel they have been denied what they feel is their right. As

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taxpayers, they contribute to the economy. The prime minister waded

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into this emotive issue a week ago. The deputy chief executive of the

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NHS is writing to all primary care trusts, reminding them of the NICE

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guidance. Of course, some PCTs have worst deficits than others and a

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more difficult process to follow, but we want to make sure everyone

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has access to this treatment. this letter, which was actually

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cent in January, does not guarantee that anything will change. These

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decisions are delegated to local PCTs. You are almost bound to get

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variation between them. We know they will not take the decision not

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to fund IVF lightly. It will be because of cost pressures elsewhere.

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You always have to choose between funding cancer, maternity services

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and mental health services. NICE is revising its guidelines, and new

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ones will be issued next year. But for this treatment to be free for

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everyone everywhere, that guidance will have to be toughened up and a

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lot of money will have to be found to pay for it.

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Lord Winston is still with us. What you don't know about this is not

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worth knowing. On the question of health budgets, there is so much

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pressure. We have an ageing population, you know the arguments.

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Can we afford to give people the chance to have a child when that is

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not a life-or-death issue? There are several issues here. Firstly,

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being infertile of course causes massive pain, and there is a proper

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case for proper reproductive medicine within the NHS. But the

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real issue is something more subtle. At present, the NHS is not costing

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out what it really costs to deliver the service. In my view, they are

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charging too much. If you centralise these services, you

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could have staff costs per cycle of around �500 to �800 per cycle. If

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you add in the drugs, it is still under �1,000. What is it currently?

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It is based on the private sector, which charges �3,000, which is

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massive profiteering. It is a big issue for the health bill coming

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through parliament. The health service is not good at costing a

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range of packages. If the PCTs were charged what the economic grade

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really was, they could deliver three cycles, and they could do

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much better medicine. That is a real issue for the health service.

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That is a strong word, profiteering. I mean that. You cannot justify, in

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London, most private clinics are charging more than �3,000 for a

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bare IVF cycle without the consultation fee and without

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investigation and without seeing the consultant and without

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ultrasound, simply as the upfront fee, paid in advance by the patient

:20:28.:20:33.

before they have anything done. What would be the cost to them? To

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the provider? I think the cost to the provider is about half that.

:20:37.:20:41.

Massive salaries are being made. The freezing of embryos, which will

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be more important if you are going to reduce multiple birth rates,

:20:47.:20:52.

people are being charged at �350 a year to destroy an embryo. Liquid

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nitrogen costs 50 pence a litre. To do this eight times will still not

:20:59.:21:03.

cost more than �5. The costs being charged in the private sector, on

:21:03.:21:10.

which the NHS is based in some of its fees, make this and realistic.

:21:10.:21:15.

A let us accept your premise that it is an unfair and an real cost

:21:15.:21:20.

that PCTs are paying. But still, on that price list you have things

:21:20.:21:24.

like hip-replacement, knee replacements, things which are

:21:24.:21:29.

fairly cheap. Some will say, do more of those and fewer of the IVF

:21:29.:21:34.

treatments, because one transforms a life and the other is a choice.

:21:34.:21:38.

That is not true. Having a child transforms your life more than

:21:38.:21:42.

anything else. We are living in a society which does not value the

:21:42.:21:46.

most important thing, the next generation. For people who are

:21:47.:21:51.

unable to have children, of course nobody has a right to have a child.

:21:51.:21:56.

But everybody in the UK has the right to get health treatment which

:21:56.:22:03.

is due to the pain they are suffering. In my view, the pain of

:22:03.:22:06.

infertility is as serious as the treatments you are talking about.

:22:06.:22:10.

We touched on that in the stuttering review added of

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education policy. Andrew Lansley has been pushed back in some of his

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ambition. It is called a watered down blueprint. Are you happy with

:22:16.:22:21.

what we have? No, because I have not seen the Bill as it comes

:22:21.:22:25.

through the House of Lords. We know a lot about what is in it. At least

:22:25.:22:28.

they have got some academic medicine and evidence that there

:22:28.:22:33.

will be experts in the commissioning process. But DD10 of

:22:33.:22:39.

that deal, it is still a very big bill. You will have a tough time in

:22:39.:22:43.

the Lords. I think we probably will have a tough time in the Lords.

:22:43.:22:46.

There are situations where the Labour Party will agree with the

:22:46.:22:55.

Government. But I think we will see a considerable extended stage.

:22:55.:22:59.

There is still a big problem in healthcare, which is what you do

:22:59.:23:03.

with the people who need support in the community after they leave the

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hospital and how you follow them up properly and give them adequate

:23:06.:23:12.

healthcare. Those are big issues which are not fully worked out yet.

:23:12.:23:15.

Now, we love a good awayday on the Daily Politics. We have cake

:23:15.:23:25.
:23:25.:23:25.

competitions and play petanque. In fact, I came second last year. In

:23:25.:23:29.

the petanque. I did not do the cakes. The Liberal Democrats have

:23:29.:23:32.

not one, but two away-days. And they are off on one now. Giles has

:23:33.:23:38.

more. Roll up your sleeves, be relaxed.

:23:38.:23:43.

Try to forget to buy and your boss. I want you to think about some

:23:43.:23:49.

works stuff, but in a relaxed and fun way. You are probably wondering

:23:49.:23:53.

why I am wearing sunglasses. It is because the future for us is so

:23:53.:23:59.

bright, I have to wear shades. Oh, dear, oh, dear. Yes, the

:23:59.:24:03.

awayday, once the preserve of companies keen to try and get their

:24:03.:24:06.

employees to bond. It was not long before politics had embraced them

:24:06.:24:10.

as well, taking the reins of the Conservative Party in 1997, William

:24:10.:24:14.

Hagues or the awayday as key. He also had a secret weapon to pull

:24:14.:24:19.

over his party's fusty image, the jumper, the dress down look that

:24:19.:24:24.

says, we are all equals. Despite the bijou nature of the Liberal

:24:24.:24:26.

Democrat parliamentary party, its leaders have also seen the awayday

:24:26.:24:30.

as a way of knitting the party together and forging his identity.

:24:30.:24:34.

But does the political awayday served as nothing more than a

:24:34.:24:39.

slightly dodgy photo op? Sadly, paintballing has yet to feature on

:24:39.:24:43.

a political awayday, much favoured by companies. But the politicians

:24:43.:24:48.

do go in for those team problem- solving exercises - building trust.

:24:48.:24:54.

The problem is, one day in politics, your colleagues catch you, the next

:24:54.:24:57.

day they let you fall flat on your face.

:24:57.:25:01.

Just like the office! You saw him in the film and he

:25:01.:25:06.

joins us now - former Liberal Democrat MP Lembit Opik. What do

:25:06.:25:12.

you get up to? It is feel good. Whatever we have said in Parliament,

:25:12.:25:17.

we are all basically pulling the same way. The only thing we do not

:25:17.:25:22.

do is sing the Lib Dem national anthem, the Gland. I will not sing

:25:22.:25:28.

it for you. -- of the Land. would like to keep our viewers! Do

:25:28.:25:32.

you play bonding games? Sometimes, but they tend to be in the evening.

:25:32.:25:41.

In the daytime, there are worthy discussions about policy. There is

:25:41.:25:44.

always the hardy perennial about what went wrong with tuition fees.

:25:44.:25:49.

In the evenings, we have dinner and a quiz. Then there is a surprise so

:25:49.:25:52.

tough questions about politics, and everyone gets competitive. Do you

:25:52.:25:58.

play any other games? Where are you reading with that question? It is

:25:58.:26:02.

an awayday. We do not do the paintballing stuff. I was not

:26:02.:26:06.

thinking of that. Are you being a bit naughty? No, I was just asking

:26:06.:26:10.

if you play any other games. Does anything could come of these

:26:10.:26:19.

events? Sometimes you get clarity in policy areas which have caused

:26:19.:26:24.

controversy. That will be an issue with health. Sometimes you can also

:26:24.:26:28.

get bonding with a leader if he has been controversial. But it is not

:26:28.:26:31.

guaranteed. Sometimes you come back, and everything is the same as it

:26:31.:26:36.

was before. You still hope to be your party's mayor for London

:26:36.:26:46.
:26:46.:27:08.

candidate. Let's look at your Power to the people! There is

:27:08.:27:12.

nothing like using an old '70s sitcom opening titles for a

:27:12.:27:15.

campaign. Mr Clegg does not seem to want you to be his candidate.

:27:15.:27:21.

he said that? He said it to the Welsh Liberals. He said, we have

:27:21.:27:24.

even had a Liberal Democrat celebrity flying the Welsh flag in

:27:24.:27:28.

the depths of the Australian jungle. That is one fresh tree disaster

:27:28.:27:32.

that we are not responsible for. I would not call that a wholehearted

:27:32.:27:37.

endorsement. He was using me as cover for the Forestry Commission

:27:37.:27:41.

disaster of policy. But we picked upon that and said we thought it

:27:41.:27:47.

was a bit partisan. The leader has withdrawn from that position. I

:27:47.:27:51.

have had a lot of negative briefing from some mysterious sources in the

:27:51.:27:58.

party. What are they afraid of, the fact that I have a profile? We have

:27:58.:28:01.

run out of time. There is just time before we go to

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:16.

find out the answer to our exam. Robert, what is the correct answer?

:28:16.:28:21.

I suppose it is sexual reproduction, isn't it? I do not know if they

:28:21.:28:24.

will be doing that at the Liberal awayday. He is right.

:28:24.:28:28.

Before we go, we didn't have time to pick a winner to our guess the

:28:28.:28:31.

year competition, so you get to pick a winner today, Robert Winston.

:28:31.:28:40.

The answer was 2002. I have two here. End Livingstone guess the

:28:40.:28:45.

year. From Yeovil in Somerset. I will be back tonight for This Week

:28:45.:28:52.

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