20/06/2011 Daily Politics


20/06/2011

Andrew Neil and Anita Anand have the top political stories of the day, including the latest news from Greece and a look at free schools.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. European finance

:00:23.:00:26.

ministers meeting in Luxembourg have agreed in principle to provide

:00:26.:00:33.

Greece with emergency funding of �10 billion. But they say it's

:00:33.:00:36.

dependent on the Greek parliament approving a new round of austerity

:00:36.:00:42.

measures. We'll be asking, are they just throwing good money after bad?

:00:42.:00:45.

Ministers are to stick to their timetable for changing the state

:00:45.:00:51.

pension age despite being urged to think again by backbench MPs.

:00:51.:00:54.

Are free schools all the rage? The Government hopes so! It says more

:00:54.:00:58.

than 100 of them will open next year run by parents, teachers and

:00:58.:01:03.

charities. And gone but in no way forgotten.

:01:03.:01:05.

We'll be discussing the legacy of the anti-war campaigner Brian Haw,

:01:05.:01:15.
:01:15.:01:17.

All that in the next half hour. And with us for the whole programme

:01:17.:01:20.

today is the former deputy headteacher who was forced to

:01:20.:01:23.

resign from her job following a speech she made to the Conservative

:01:23.:01:31.

Party conference, Katharine Birbalsingh. Welcome back. First

:01:31.:01:33.

this morning, let's talk about pensions because MPs unhappy at the

:01:33.:01:36.

Government's plans to raise the retirement age for men and women to

:01:36.:01:40.

66 by 2020 will get a chance to voice their opposition when the

:01:40.:01:49.

Commons debates the Pensions Bill today. Critics say the move is

:01:49.:01:52.

unfair on around 330,000 women who will be forced to work for two

:01:52.:01:58.

years longer than they expected. But ministers are, so far, sticking

:01:58.:02:01.

to their timetable. Our correspondent Jo Coburn can tell us

:02:01.:02:11.
:02:11.:02:12.

more. We are talking about quite a bit of opposition. Yes, cross-party

:02:12.:02:17.

opposition. Not many Tory MPs, 61 signatures for an early day motion

:02:17.:02:23.

to force a debate on this issue. A significant number of Lib Dem and

:02:23.:02:27.

Labour MPs who are leading this campaign are saying remitted --

:02:27.:02:31.

women will be targeted unfairly because of the equalisation of the

:02:31.:02:35.

state pension age for men and women. They have already agreed to

:02:35.:02:41.

increase the state pension age to 66 by 2020, but in order that men

:02:41.:02:44.

and women will be able to get to that stage at the same time, they

:02:44.:02:49.

will have to increase the rate for women and there will be a certain

:02:49.:02:54.

group of women who will not be able to claim their pension until 65 by

:02:54.:03:00.

2018 and they will be unfairly poor. I heard that Iain Duncan Smith

:03:00.:03:05.

himself has expressed reservations to George Osborne. In view of the

:03:05.:03:10.

fact that even the welfare Tsar is uncomfortable, how long can they

:03:10.:03:14.

stick to that possession -- position? Iain Duncan Smith will be

:03:14.:03:18.

uncomfortable, they will be uncomfortable that the idea that

:03:18.:03:24.

women might be unfairly targeted. What we don't have is the exact

:03:24.:03:28.

figure, how much money would have to be thrown at this in order to

:03:28.:03:32.

subsidise and pay the women they might lose out over those 18 months.

:03:32.:03:36.

But some of the figures have been something like �3 billion. The

:03:36.:03:39.

Treasury would have to come up with that and at the moment I don't get

:03:39.:03:43.

the sense they are keen to do so. That doesn't mean they have closed

:03:43.:03:48.

the door on this, but the issue will be raised this afternoon and

:03:48.:03:50.

it will be interesting to see whether they give any indication

:03:50.:03:56.

that in a few years they might tried to find the money. Thank you.

:03:56.:04:00.

Looking forward to working until 66? I have to say I do love

:04:00.:04:08.

teaching. I would happily teach forever. 66 might be too early!

:04:08.:04:12.

Indeed, it would be for me. But I realise that is not necessarily the

:04:12.:04:17.

normal response from people. Clearly it is a concern. People

:04:17.:04:26.

having to work longer. But at the same time, our population... We

:04:26.:04:31.

can't have it all. We have to live within our means. People are living

:04:31.:04:35.

longer. I was about to say unfortunately, it is not

:04:35.:04:40.

unfortunate, but there are consequences. His there anybody in

:04:40.:04:43.

the teaching profession in the state schools, you have got to

:04:43.:04:49.

retire at the retirement age? you can continue working longer if

:04:49.:04:57.

you want. In teaching it is always said that the longer you wait to

:04:57.:05:01.

retire, the more likely you want to die earlier. It is such a stressful

:05:01.:05:06.

job and it takes so much out of you that when you stop suddenly, you

:05:06.:05:16.
:05:16.:05:19.

are in a bit of shock. Treadmill. Yes, you have to go on forever.

:05:19.:05:21.

The Greek debt crisis and the austerity measures that the

:05:21.:05:24.

government is trying to implement make the situation in Britain look

:05:24.:05:27.

like a walk in the park. The government in Athens says it will

:05:27.:05:30.

run out of funds within weeks unless it receives the next tranche

:05:30.:05:33.

of money from the bailout agreed last year. EU finance ministers

:05:33.:05:35.

meeting in Luxembourg have postponed a final decision until

:05:35.:05:38.

the Greek parliament agrees a new round of spending cuts. But they

:05:38.:05:41.

will also need to negotiate a second bailout to prevent a default

:05:41.:05:47.

further down the line. Not everyone, though, is happy about more public

:05:47.:05:50.

money being committed. Anita has more.

:05:50.:05:54.

Are we just days away from a Greek tragedy? Last year, economic

:05:54.:05:57.

collapse was averted by a 110 billion euro bailout from the EU

:05:57.:06:03.

and the IMF. The Greek government, led by George Papandreou, promised

:06:03.:06:07.

to implement tough austerity measures. Now, though, a new

:06:07.:06:11.

bailout is needed to stop Greece defaulting on its debt - maybe a

:06:11.:06:17.

further 120 billion euros. Most of the money would have to be put up

:06:17.:06:20.

by other countries in the eurozone. But German Chancellor, Angela

:06:20.:06:23.

Merkel, says that private investors should take some of the pain too,

:06:23.:06:27.

perhaps by rolling over loans. And she may seek the participation of

:06:27.:06:32.

countries outside the eurozone, including the UK. Boris Johnson

:06:32.:06:36.

says that Greece should be allowed to default and leave the eurozone.

:06:36.:06:43.

Agreeing a second bailout would be "chucking good money after bad".

:06:43.:06:46.

George Osborne insists that Britain should not have to contribute to a

:06:46.:06:51.

new rescue. But the Government fears that a Greek default could

:06:51.:06:55.

spark off a new banking crisis. With financial markets unsettled by

:06:55.:06:58.

the uncertainty, a decision will have to be taken soon one way or

:06:58.:07:02.

the other. I'm joined now by our correspondent Steve Evans, who's in

:07:02.:07:07.

Luxembourg where EU finance ministers have been meeting. Maybe

:07:07.:07:15.

you can tell us firstly which way... What have they decided? They have

:07:16.:07:19.

decided, given the money -- give them the money, but only if they do

:07:19.:07:23.

the tough bit. They are not going to say you can have the money and

:07:23.:07:27.

we will wait to see what happens with the austerity measures.

:07:27.:07:31.

Basically, you can have the money, but you need to do it. There is a

:07:31.:07:35.

game of bluff going on because the eurozone ministers' meeting in

:07:36.:07:40.

Luxembourg know quite well that Greece defaulting would be a crisis

:07:40.:07:45.

for all of them. Greece has strong cards to pay, the eurozone

:07:45.:07:49.

ministers clearly have strong cards to pay in that they have the money.

:07:49.:07:53.

There has a lot of bluff going on, and arm-twisting, with the IMF

:07:53.:07:57.

saying you need to put up your bit of the money from the eurozone to

:07:57.:08:03.

keep this thing afloat. The great unspoken argument is, would it be

:08:03.:08:09.

better if Greece simply was cut loose from the eurozone? There is

:08:09.:08:12.

the difficulty of that for the people here because that would

:08:12.:08:16.

precipitate a banking crisis in Greece and that would probably

:08:16.:08:19.

precipitate banking crisis in other countries, perhaps including

:08:19.:08:27.

Britain. It is very much being shouted from the hilltops here,

:08:27.:08:31.

Boris Johnson saying cut them loose, let's not give a penny to them. How

:08:31.:08:39.

could Britain be pressured to do it and are they likely to do it?

:08:39.:08:43.

pressure would be if there were a crisis, let's imagine them acquire

:08:43.:08:47.

a Greek default, the Greek banking system collapsed, the Greek

:08:47.:08:51.

government could not repay its debts, you then look at the banks

:08:51.:08:55.

which have lent to Greece, they are primarily France, another to

:08:55.:08:59.

Germany, number three Britain. All of those banks would be going to

:08:59.:09:03.

their governments and saying, remember Lehman Brothers clumber --

:09:04.:09:08.

Lehman Brothers? Are you going to let us for? What are you going to

:09:09.:09:12.

do about it? That is the way the real politics would unfold in that

:09:12.:09:17.

extreme situation. It is not certain to happen. Maybe the

:09:17.:09:21.

austerity will go through, maybe the Greek economy will start to

:09:21.:09:27.

sort itself out, maybe productivity will rise and maybe this drip-drip

:09:27.:09:33.

approach of the bail-out will work. But the possibility, the scenario

:09:33.:09:38.

at the darkest end of it, is a very serious one. If British people

:09:38.:09:41.

think we are not in the eurozone so it doesn't affect us, the view here

:09:42.:09:48.

would be they are wrong. Thank you for that.

:09:48.:09:51.

With us now is Professor Costas Meghir, an economist from the

:09:51.:09:53.

University College London, and Sajid Javid, the Bromsgrove MP and

:09:53.:10:03.
:10:03.:10:06.

a former director at Deutsche Bank. That -- it is the German banks who

:10:06.:10:10.

have the second biggest exposure to Greek debt after the French banks.

:10:10.:10:16.

They have already had 110 billion euros. And they need more, a lot

:10:16.:10:21.

more. Yet the Greek financial situation is just as bad as when

:10:21.:10:26.

they got there first bail-out. Why throw good money after bad? In my

:10:27.:10:30.

opinion Greece will almost certainly do fault, it is the

:10:30.:10:34.

question of time. It is a matter of months rather than years. The key

:10:34.:10:38.

issue is because time is so important, if more time can be

:10:38.:10:41.

purchased to help banks and other investors to prepare for this, it

:10:41.:10:46.

will benefit everyone, including the UK economy. They are not going

:10:46.:10:51.

slow in Europe to prepare for a default, they are going slow to try

:10:51.:10:57.

to negotiate the right terms in the hope of avoiding a default. In my

:10:57.:10:59.

opinion they went the vault -- avoid the default. The whole

:11:00.:11:03.

European project was based on political dishonesty in the first

:11:03.:11:08.

place and that has been continued by European leaders. Greece can't

:11:08.:11:16.

recover unless it leaves the euro, but it is better that more time is

:11:16.:11:20.

purchased so we avoid a Lehman Brothers scenario. Many observers

:11:20.:11:24.

believe Greece doesn't suffer from a liquidity problem, it is not

:11:24.:11:27.

short of cash and they need money just to tide it over until the

:11:27.:11:33.

money comes in, it is effectively bust and no amount of bail-out can

:11:33.:11:37.

rescue a bust economy. That is absolutely true. Greece is

:11:37.:11:43.

basically insolvent because of deep structural problems. The Labour

:11:43.:11:47.

markets and product markets and other aspects of the Greek economy

:11:47.:11:50.

have been not only neglected, but going worse over the last 30 years.

:11:50.:11:59.

What is happening now is that the Europeans have to think through the

:11:59.:12:04.

whole euro project. The 12 billion that Greece needs now to remain

:12:04.:12:07.

afloat will be forthcoming and I think there will be a vote of

:12:08.:12:11.

confidence passing on Tuesday because nobody is ready for an

:12:11.:12:16.

early summer apocalyptic scenario. But then they will have to think,

:12:16.:12:20.

they need to realise Greece is insolvent and the need to decide

:12:20.:12:27.

what to do. They Iraq two options. One is they decide, OK, the

:12:27.:12:33.

eurozone project is very important, we will go to some kind of fiscal

:12:33.:12:36.

union and we will forgive part of Greek debt against tough reforms

:12:36.:12:42.

and the market. Germans telling you how to run your fiscal policy.

:12:42.:12:45.

Exactly, or so the structure of the economy, like markets,

:12:45.:12:51.

privatisations. They would do that for you as well? That will go down

:12:51.:12:59.

a bomb in Athens! That is only one option. The other option is that

:12:59.:13:03.

Greece leaves the euro, it makes the debt into Crapper, which is a

:13:03.:13:11.

default. Your debt would still be in euros. -- drachma. If Greece

:13:11.:13:16.

left the euro, it would do nominate its debt in drachmas and default. A

:13:16.:13:22.

its current debt distilling euros. All Greek debt, 90% of group debt

:13:22.:13:27.

is under Greek law. Effectively nobody can stop them from

:13:27.:13:32.

dominating it in another currency. It will be a default, but it makes

:13:32.:13:38.

no sense for Greece to before start of the euro without nominating...

:13:38.:13:43.

The EU and the IMF are saying we will probably give you this but we

:13:43.:13:48.

want see evidence that things will change. I read this morning that

:13:48.:13:51.

this privatisation programme that is supposed to raise so much money

:13:51.:13:58.

has not even got off the ground. Nothing has been sold. And that in

:13:58.:14:02.

an economy dominated by the public sector, so far not a single civil

:14:02.:14:07.

servant has lost their job. Yes. is not happening. You're absolutely

:14:07.:14:12.

right and that is exactly the problem. You're asking what should

:14:12.:14:22.
:14:22.:14:23.

happen. I think what should happen is that we need to start a very

:14:23.:14:28.

deep programme of reforms. You are talking about privatisations, but

:14:28.:14:32.

only a public finance issue, at the same time you need to change the

:14:32.:14:35.

structure of the economy, you need to increase competition and change

:14:35.:14:41.

the legal structure. Griggs paying tax would be interesting. Then

:14:41.:14:46.

there is another misconception. That the constitution does not

:14:46.:14:51.

allow firing civil servants, it does. There should be a big reform?

:14:51.:14:56.

Yes. Does the British government have a policy? I think it does. We

:14:56.:15:02.

have to act in our best interests. What is the policy? It is in our

:15:02.:15:05.

best interests that there is no immediate collapse of Greeks and

:15:05.:15:10.

other peripheral countries in the euro countries. We trade over half

:15:10.:15:16.

our exports with the eurozone. Almost 500% of GDP, which leads to

:15:16.:15:20.

greater exposure to the eurozone. We are in favour of a second juror

:15:20.:15:30.

K bailout should be managed by the eurozone countries. I would not

:15:30.:15:34.

like to see us participate in a second bailout. I did not as

:15:34.:15:38.

whether we should participate. Regardless of whether we

:15:38.:15:43.

participate or not, is the British government in favour of a second

:15:43.:15:47.

the EU bailout? I cannot speak for the British government, but what is

:15:47.:15:50.

interesting is that there was a meeting of European ministers

:15:50.:15:53.

yesterday, and I gather the Chancellor did not attend. I think

:15:53.:15:57.

if he had, they would have expected him to bring his cheque from. That

:15:57.:16:02.

speaks for itself. If we step back from this, the euro was always a

:16:02.:16:06.

bankruptcy machine. The causes may be different in the different

:16:06.:16:10.

countries, but the trigger point is exactly the same, and that is the

:16:10.:16:15.

euro. Fundamentally, the countries in their need to move to fiscal

:16:15.:16:20.

union all we need to get rid of it. The Chancellor had an important

:16:20.:16:27.

event to attend, his 40th birthday! Have before tax money to be used to

:16:27.:16:33.

bail out Greece? -- happy for your tax money. I like people, schools

:16:33.:16:38.

and countries to be held to account. I will take that as a no! Thank you

:16:38.:16:44.

for coming back. His story is going to run all through the summer,

:16:44.:16:47.

particularly because the Government's majority in Greece is

:16:47.:16:51.

about five seats. This morning, Michael Gove gave a

:16:51.:16:57.

speech at a think tank just around the corner. Katharine was there. He

:16:57.:17:01.

was crowing about the success of his free schools policy with about

:17:01.:17:05.

20 to open in September. We have been following one, a primary

:17:05.:17:08.

Academy in Berkshire, and Max Cotton has been to meet the new

:17:08.:17:14.

teachers who have been appointed since we were last there.

:17:15.:17:18.

This is Langley Hall, and we have been watching it transformed from

:17:18.:17:23.

the grain of an idea into a real school opening its doors after the

:17:23.:17:27.

summer holidays. Like other free schools, this one will be funded

:17:27.:17:32.

out of general taxation, but they are controlled and run by private

:17:32.:17:36.

companies or individuals. Since we were last here, the teaching staff

:17:36.:17:41.

have been hired, and while the building work at the school goes on

:17:41.:17:44.

in preparation for the arrival of Langley Hall's first pupils, we

:17:44.:17:49.

have gone to the local pub. In primary school tradition, we

:17:49.:17:55.

started with a bit of show and tell. Priya has been teaching for 12

:17:55.:18:00.

years and will be concentrating on the youngest pupils at Langley Hall.

:18:00.:18:05.

Brendan has been teaching for 11 years, and his expertise is in

:18:05.:18:11.

special needs. Elaine has been a teacher for more than 30 years, and

:18:11.:18:16.

her subject is music. I want to ask you all, what has attracted you to

:18:16.:18:20.

this school? Many things. The main thing is the ethos of the school

:18:20.:18:25.

matches my home. The Health is preparing children for life. --

:18:25.:18:28.

ethos. We will be doing that through looking at life skills,

:18:28.:18:34.

which is very much in tune with the early years curriculum. It is new,

:18:34.:18:38.

exciting we are experiencing it from the start, and we have got a

:18:38.:18:42.

great team of people who are determined to make it work. Have

:18:42.:18:45.

you been able to pay for it to light out of the curriculum? Is

:18:45.:18:50.

that a good thing? Yes. It is choosing the things that are right

:18:50.:18:54.

for the children we are going to be teaching. When I first started

:18:54.:18:59.

teaching 32 years ago, it was a more free form of education. I saw

:18:59.:19:02.

the national curriculum cumin and teachers being channelled down a

:19:02.:19:07.

specific path. There are aspects of the natural curriculum which we are

:19:07.:19:10.

going to take, and we want to take them on because they are right, but

:19:10.:19:14.

certain parts we can now tailor to what we want to do and what is

:19:14.:19:23.

right for the children. Is it elitist? It is not selective. The

:19:23.:19:28.

admissions criteria are in line with admissions criteria for other

:19:28.:19:32.

local authority schools. You have got people leaving independent

:19:32.:19:37.

private schools to come to this school, haven't you? Only 25%, the

:19:37.:19:42.

rest are coming from state schools, so it is a great mixture. And that

:19:42.:19:45.

is not elitism, it is parents choosing to send their children to

:19:45.:19:50.

the school. They are not being selected as such. They have to be

:19:50.:19:54.

alive at the same admissions criteria as anyone else applying. -

:19:54.:19:58.

- in line. And you're all being paid much more money, is that

:19:58.:20:05.

right? Hardly! We are being paid in line with standard pay scales.

:20:05.:20:11.

it is the same Quetta mark you are not in it for the money? No.

:20:11.:20:17.

are all idealists customer TS. As many as 20 free schools will be

:20:18.:20:23.

opening in September. The take-up next it could be over 200.

:20:23.:20:28.

Our guest is planning to set up a free school in south London, and in

:20:28.:20:31.

the Middlesbrough studio is the Labour education spokesman, Ian

:20:31.:20:36.

Wright. You are setting up any borough of Lambeth, I think. That

:20:36.:20:42.

is right. If the local education authority, which I assume controls

:20:42.:20:46.

most of the schools in that area, is it helping or hindering? Well,

:20:46.:20:50.

at the moment we are in discussions with the local authority, and I'm

:20:50.:20:55.

hoping that they will be held for. What you need from them? Well, the

:20:55.:20:59.

building that we would like is an old school building, and it belongs

:20:59.:21:04.

to the council. It would be for the council to negotiate with the

:21:04.:21:07.

Department for Education and when the time comes. So they could

:21:07.:21:12.

refuse to let you have the building. You have another one? No. We would

:21:12.:21:17.

be in trouble. How much money when you get from the government to run

:21:17.:21:23.

the school? Well, schools are funded on a pay-per-view basis. --

:21:23.:21:33.
:21:33.:21:35.

Our intention is to build up the number of pupils every year.

:21:36.:21:40.

main advantage that these schools have is that they are independent

:21:40.:21:45.

of the local authority, so people think. But the school that you got

:21:45.:21:49.

into so much trouble in after a speech was independent of the local

:21:49.:21:54.

authority as well, wasn't it? It was an academy. You are right to

:21:54.:21:57.

say that they will be run in the same way that academies are run.

:21:57.:22:01.

They are exactly the same, really. The difference is that a free

:22:01.:22:08.

school is set up by people in the community, and what academy status

:22:08.:22:11.

for free school status in says Gould is the freedom to be ever to

:22:11.:22:17.

make decisions. Just like that teacher was saying, certain parts

:22:17.:22:20.

of the curriculum are useful for their population of children, and

:22:20.:22:26.

some parts are not. It seems silly that people from the local

:22:26.:22:28.

authority who do not know about teaching should come and tell

:22:28.:22:33.

teachers how to teach, or tell the governors have to govern. Let me go

:22:33.:22:38.

to Ian Wright. We have not got much time, I am afraid, but we will come

:22:38.:22:44.

back to the subject. I'm interested, for our viewers and for myself, his

:22:44.:22:49.

Labour for or against establishing these free schools? Good morning.

:22:49.:22:52.

Labour is against the establishment of free schools as national policy,

:22:52.:22:58.

I hope that is fairly clear. It is fairly clear, and your boss, Andy

:22:58.:23:02.

Burnham, when asked on another BBC shows said, yes, I am against them

:23:02.:23:08.

as well, but he then said that he rather liked the look of a free

:23:08.:23:13.

school being started up by a Labour supporter, Peter Hyman. I think

:23:13.:23:17.

Andy, to be fair to him, is very pragmatic. He recognises that when

:23:18.:23:22.

we get back into power in 2015, the educational landscape will be very

:23:22.:23:27.

different. He also appreciates that many parents and people setting of

:23:27.:23:29.

free schools have the best interests of pupils and children at

:23:30.:23:35.

heart. He has to be pragmatic, quite rightly, because we cannot

:23:35.:23:38.

support that kind of blanket statement. But as a national policy,

:23:38.:23:43.

Labour is opposed to free schools. So why has the support of Peter

:23:43.:23:47.

Hyman setting up a pre-school? is right in thinking that,

:23:47.:23:52.

depending on local circumstances, what is available and turns of a

:23:52.:23:58.

specific area, different approaches are needed. -- in terms of. So you

:23:58.:24:01.

may be for or against them depending on local circumstances.

:24:01.:24:05.

think I have been clear in saying that as a national policy we are

:24:05.:24:09.

against it. If it is national policy to be against them, why are

:24:09.:24:13.

you in favour of one set up by a Labour adviser? You are posing one

:24:14.:24:19.

set up by a Tory sympathiser, Toby Young. Why you in favour of Peter

:24:19.:24:25.

Hyman's? We are opposed to it as a national policy. Far too much time

:24:25.:24:29.

and attention has been devoted by Michael Gove and Department for

:24:29.:24:32.

Education officials on the matter, and we should have a policy for all

:24:32.:24:35.

children, to stretch all children to have the ambition for every

:24:35.:24:40.

single child going through the process, not just for a narrow

:24:40.:24:44.

elite. If and when you get back into power, will you abolish free

:24:44.:24:51.

schools? No, and I think that is where Andy is being pragmatic.

:24:51.:24:55.

Let's look at local circumstances and see how these schools are doing.

:24:55.:24:59.

Thank you for joining us from Middlesbrough, thank you very much.

:24:59.:25:04.

Now, you may agree or disagree with what he stood for, but there was no

:25:04.:25:07.

doubting that Brian Haw made his mark on Westminster through 10

:25:07.:25:10.

years of protest in Parliament Square. His death was announced at

:25:10.:25:14.

the weekend. Adam has been having a look back at his life.

:25:14.:25:18.

Anyone who came to Westminster, whether they were working or

:25:18.:25:22.

visiting as a tourist, saw this, the protests started by Brian Haw.

:25:23.:25:26.

He first pitched up in 2001. He was angry about sanctions being imposed

:25:26.:25:32.

on Iraq, but his protests grew in the wake of the war on terror, the

:25:32.:25:36.

war in Afghanistan and the war against Saddam Hussein. In his ten-

:25:36.:25:39.

year vigil, he around three different prime ministers, often

:25:39.:25:43.

with a megaphone, until it was taken away from him. The local MP

:25:43.:25:47.

said that Brian Haw enjoyed being a pain in the neck. He will be

:25:47.:25:50.

pleased to know that his anarchic spirit lives on amongst his

:25:50.:25:55.

supporters. I have said to the skies that, out of respect I will

:25:55.:26:00.

not put anything... But some of them were willing to speak to us.

:26:00.:26:04.

have come to erect a blue plaque for Brian Haw to commemorate the

:26:04.:26:08.

sterling work that he did for the peace movement in Parliament Square

:26:08.:26:12.

through the years, through wind, rain and snow. There were numerous

:26:12.:26:17.

attempts to remove them, including a law which bans demonstrations at

:26:17.:26:20.

Westminster, but he often found that as a peaceful protest of the

:26:20.:26:25.

law was on his side. Last year, a new group of activists this to up,

:26:25.:26:29.

leading to serious divisions among the parliaments were protesters. --

:26:29.:26:33.

pitched up. The big question is what happens now that Brian Haw has

:26:33.:26:37.

passed away? The local council and many MPs, while up holding the

:26:37.:26:41.

right to protest, would be glad if this was no longer a permanent

:26:41.:26:46.

feature on their doorstep. Jenny Jones from the Green Party is

:26:46.:26:50.

with us, very much a Brian Haw supporter. What was he like? You

:26:50.:26:55.

knew him, didn't you? He was clearly very brave, very committed,

:26:55.:26:58.

and I think millions of people in Britain will think he was right in

:26:58.:27:03.

trying to bring our troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan. He was

:27:03.:27:07.

political Marmite, wasn't he? Some people objective to the spectacle

:27:07.:27:10.

that he created in Parliament Square. There was a running joke

:27:10.:27:14.

that he ought to have a designer in on his placards and then he might

:27:14.:27:19.

be more acceptable to the establishment. He is one of those

:27:19.:27:22.

great British eccentrics, and we should remember him like that, an

:27:22.:27:26.

incredibly brave man. Although it did not make much difference in the

:27:26.:27:29.

end, did it? How much to these protests make a difference? It is

:27:30.:27:33.

difficult to say, because they colour the whole political

:27:33.:27:37.

landscape in a certain way, so it is difficult to know. But he was

:27:37.:27:40.

somebody who put his life on the line. You could say he was another

:27:40.:27:44.

casualty of war, because living outside for 10 years cannot be good

:27:44.:27:49.

for your health. Should the protesters now move away? I do not

:27:49.:27:53.

think so. I think they have a right to be there and make their point.

:27:53.:27:57.

When the climate can was there, it was amazing how many tourists

:27:57.:28:01.

thought it was part of the two has seen in London. But Westminster

:28:01.:28:07.

council now has a real duty and should probably put paid blue

:28:07.:28:11.

plaque there for Brian Haw. heard that argument, fixture, I saw,

:28:11.:28:16.

where do you stand? I am all for the blue plaque. I am not sure I am

:28:16.:28:21.

all the protesters. On the other hand, there is the right to protest.

:28:21.:28:25.

It is a difficult one, I think I might sit on the fence, but I am

:28:25.:28:29.

all for the blue plaque. Some may say 90 need a lifetime of

:28:29.:28:35.

achievement for that 10 years of protest may not qualify. That is it

:28:35.:28:39.

for today. Thank you to our guests, especially Katharine for being

:28:39.:28:43.

guest of the day. We are back at 11:30am tomorrow, the early start

:28:43.:28:47.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS