05/07/2011 Daily Politics


05/07/2011

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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Celebrities,

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politicians. Now it's the phone of a murdered school girl. Where will

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the phone hacking scandal end? We'll be speaking to the Chairman

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of the Press Complaints Commission. Ed Miliband wants the right to

:00:41.:00:45.

choose his own Shadow Cabinet but will it be enough to stamp his

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authority on the party? And the government want to make it easier

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:01:03.:01:07.

to complain. But will it make any All that in the next half hour.

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With us for the whole programme today is Conservative Peer and

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Chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, Baroness Peta Buscombe.

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Now the shocking allegations that a private detective working for the

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News of the World was involved in hacking the phone of murdered

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school girl Milly Dowler. Detectives from Scotland Yard will

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meet executives from the paper to discuss the claims this morning.

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It's the latest in a string of stories about the activities of the

:01:31.:01:41.
:01:41.:01:42.

paper's journalists. We have the background. Yes, I do, Andrew.

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After Milly Dowler's disappearance in March 2002 it's claimed that

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Glenn Mulcaire, a private investigator working for the News

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of the World, illegally intercepted, and then deleted, messages from

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friends and relatives left on Milly's mobile phone. He was

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apparently trying to make room for more messages. It's claimed that

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these actions gave Milly's family false hope that she might still

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:02:11.:02:12.

have been alive. The phone hacking story first blew up in 2006 when Mr

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Mulcaire and the News of the World's royal editor, Clive Goodman,

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were found to have hacked into the phones of members of the royal

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household. Both Mulcaire and Goodman were jailed in 2007. Since

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then dozens of other politicians and celebrities have claimed they

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:02:34.:02:34.

were illegally targeted by the newspaper. In January, the High

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Court will hear claims from various test cases including Jude Law,

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Labour MP Chris Bryant and interior designer Kelly Hoppen. These

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developments raise tricky questions, not only for the News of the World,

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but its owner, Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation, which is planning

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a full takeover of the broadcaster BSkyB. A matter currently being

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considered by the government. The Prime Minister, who's in

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Afghanistan, was asked about the matter this morning.

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As for the issue of BSkyB, and the takeover issue, that has to be

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followed in a correct legal way. The Government, on these processes,

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is acting in a judicial way and it's quite right the Secretary of

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State for Culture Media and Sport carries out his role in that manner

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without any interference from anybody else in the Government and

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that one of the reasons I had abstracted myself from this process

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and want him to carry out his role in the way that he should under the

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law. That was David Cameron speaking from Afghanistan. And the

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Labour leader Ed Miliband has this morning called for the UK chief

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executive of News Corp, former News of the World Editor Rebekah Brooks,

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to step down from her current job. He also criticised the way the

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industry is regulated. The current system does not work because these

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abuses were going on when we had a Press Complaints Commission. Why

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weren't they stopping this happening? That's why we need a

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proper look at the proper practices of the industry so these things

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never ever happen again. We have heard from the Prime Minister and

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Leader of the Opposition. Let's now hear from Baroness Peta Buscombe.

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Why is it, since the start of the biggest crisis in British

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journalistic standards in living memory, you and the Press

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Complaints Commission has been missing in action? That's not true.

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We have not been missing in action. Words cannot describe how angry I

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am with this. Totally angry. First of all, I have been working really

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hard for the last two-and-a-half years since I arrived in 2009, to

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further improve, work hard, but the reality is we have to be careful.

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This is allegations going back to 2002. Two people went to prison in

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2007, but what was happening Ben was totally and utterly appalling.

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I understand. If you haven't been missing in action, can you tell me

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what a useful thing you have done to bring the news of the world and

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those doing the hacking to justice. We are doing it now. First of all,

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in 2007, we put out edicts right across the industry demanding that

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they introduced new guidelines and practices in terms of their

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internal practices within their organisations. It made no

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difference. Remember, these are allegations going back to what

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happened to 2002. What have you done it that's useful. I want to

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finish the question. I would like you to tell me, not issuing edicts,

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what you said is, I wanted everything in my power to ensure

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that does not behaving are brought to book. Tell me what you have done

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which has brought anybody to book? We are doing all we can. But what

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have you done? We set up a review. Following on from 2007-nine, we set

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up a review of what took place over those past years. We are holding

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the News of the world to account. In what way? There's only so much

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weight. Your report in 2009... is a police investigation about

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criminal activity. There are laws in place, statute is in place to

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take care of this. Those laws were not in place in 2002 but are now.

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We are doing all we can, given that there is a police investigation

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going on. I understand that but you're not answering a single

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question. Actually, I am not. You have not been able to tell me a

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single thing. Let me ask you this. In at 2009, November, you actually

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published a report that vindicated the News of the world. No, we

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didn't. Your report went along with the news of the World claimed that

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it was one of rogue journalist. You've indicated the News of the

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world and you were completely wrong. We didn't vindicate them. We said

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there was no evidence at that time and we doddered I personally, and

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the PCC, are so angry because clearly, we were misled. We said

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that very clearly and publicly. even attacked the Guardian a.

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didn't attack the Guardian. warned the Guardian not to publish

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things when you didn't have full evidence. But we didn't have the

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evidence. You implied the Guardian was wrong. The media select

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committee did not come up with any new evidence. You are the regulator,

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they are not. Yes but is only so much you can do when people are

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lying to us. Now we know. We didn't have the evidence them. I was not

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being given the truth. Who knows if there are other newspapers who have

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lied? But you are the regulator. You're meant to know these things.

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Yes, but that's like saying, anyone who has committed a crime, judges

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will know all the answers. That's not the case. This is what happened

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back in 2002, 2003, the 1990s. What was the culture of news

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organisations them? What was the ability of the PCC to regulate

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that? 0. Because it is a criminal activity and the point is, we are

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the regulatory body which has a hugely important role to play and

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it fulfils an important role in terms of regulating the press but

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we cannot cut across criminal activity. That said, we set up this

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review at the beginning of this year. We are looking at all that

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has taken place in the last few years. I have excellent people on a

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review committee. I have police from Cambridgeshire, a professor of

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media law. We will wait to see the results. We also talking to M I.

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I'm not going to let you a filibuster this interview. Not only

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did you implicitly attacked the Guardian, you then attacked the

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lawyer who testified that 6,000 people had been hacked. I'm not

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going into that. You had to apologise, pay damages and costs.

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I'm not going into that. I want to talk about what we have done, which

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is what you ask me in the first place. Why would you attack the

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lawyer who testified to the Commons that 6,000 people had been hacked

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and you told the Society of Editors that's not true. I didn't say that.

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You are misquoting me and that is totally unfair. Did you have to

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apologise and pay damages? I'm not going to comment on that. The PCC

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takes all have this incredibly seriously. For the last 2.5 years,

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I have been working exceptionally hard to beef up our sanctions and I

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have now demanded the publishers, the proprietors, because I am

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deeply unhappy about what has taken place. You have to understand that

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this is your industry. It is the journalists... A Which are your men

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to regulated. I'm going to ask you one more time. This is also...

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would like to ask you this question. Do you not feel that having sided

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with the news of the world, having attacked a lawyer who knew that

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6,000 people had been attacked, could you tell me one a useful

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thing that the PCC has done which is either exposing this cracking or

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brought people to book? You haven't done it yet. We have beefed up our

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sanctions, making more demands on the industry. I have demanded to

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see all the proprietors and I'm asking each one individually and

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the publishers what they had done in this area. Have you exposed any

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of the hacking? In the last two- and-a-half years since I had been

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on board, we have had one complaint about phone hacking which was

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withdrawn. So you haven't? This happened back in 2002. Andrew, I

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know it has been going on now but I didn't know that when I came on

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board in 2009. Let me finish. truth is, a lot is coming out now

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and I am so glad. I have to tell you, I have played a part. Tell me

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one thing you have revealed. I, and the Press Complaints Commission,

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were badly misled by the News of the world and I know you're

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laughing at that for some so you have revealed nothing? This is a

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criminal activity. There is a police investigation. I had a

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review committee. You have told us that. I know. It's difficult for me

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to explain. Let me ask you this final question. I cannot cut across

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the police investigation. You know that, Andrew. You must sense my

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frustration. That's not what our view was wanted. They want

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effectiveness. I do too. The Calcot report said it self-regulation

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didn't work, there would have to be statutory regulation. Is it

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important to everybody that self- regulation has not worked and the

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recommendation will have to be implemented? First of all,

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statutory regulation now exists for this criminal activity. The Data

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Protection Act,... You know what I mean, statutory regulation of the

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press. Yes or no? We have to be very careful about the newspaper

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industry regulator by the state. I am almost at my wit's end about

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this but, at the end of the day, I also care massive leak about the

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freedom of the press, responsibly, to be able to investigate

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wrongdoing. I'm afraid we have to leave it there. Thank you. Labour

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MPs are voting this evening on whether to deprive themselves of

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the right to chose members of the shadow cabinet. At the moment when

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a new leader is elected, he doesn't get to choose who sits beside him

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on his front bench. Oh no, his MPs and Peers get to pick who makes the

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grade in elections every two years. So what can we expect this evening?

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Our Political Correspondent Iain Watson joins us now. It has been a

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third of the Times, -- it has been said a few times, Iain, is this Ed

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Miliband's Clause 4 moment? It is certainly not bad. The result is at

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6:00pm. Party sources don't seem to be hanging on the edge of the seeds

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over this one. They expect MPs to back Ed Miliband but the vote is

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not binding. This is part of a much wider remit. Those reforms will

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have to be approved by the party conference in September and today's

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vote I think is the easy vote for Ed Miliband. We might stumble

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across a cause for moment. One of those challenges is he wants to

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water down the trade union influence in the party's decision-

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making. That may be more controversial. He also has to

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change the way the party leader is elected because, as you know, his

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tale is constantly tweak by Conservatives because he was

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dependent on trade union votes to beat his brother so that has to

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change as well. Interestingly enough, in the shadow cabinet,

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that's the easy bit. He a state guarantee existing Cabinet members

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:15:11.:15:12.

he would not reshuffle them as soon He needs to do something quickly.

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According to a poll became out in the Independent yesterday, it is

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not looking good for him. He is less popular than Ian Duncan-Smith

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was when he was leader of the Conservative Party. He is more

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popular the Michael Howard or Michael Foot. I think, at the

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moment, there is a feeling around Shadow Cabinet members in the pit

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of their stomach that something has to be done. Ed Miliband is not

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punching through or getting enough impact. I think people want to see

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:15:59.:16:02.

him perform better. He can help out. I do not think in any stretch his

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leadership is under threat. They should be doing better. We're

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joined now by Michael Dugher, who's the newly appointed right hand man

:16:14.:16:17.

to Ed Miliband, and by John Rentoul, chief political commentator for the

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Independent on Sunday and a critic of the Labour leader. Research

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published in the Independent today shows that Mr Miliband is more

:16:33.:16:37.

unpopular than Ian Duncan-Smith in the same stage of his leadership.

:16:37.:16:44.

We know what happened to him. has been leader for only nine

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months. With the cuts, it does feel longer. He has been leader for nine

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months. He inherited a situation where Labour suffered one of the

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worst defeats in our history. He knows we have to work harder and

:16:59.:17:03.

listen more. All our policies are being reviewed. He is determined to

:17:03.:17:09.

drive through big changes in the party. He is saying let's get rid

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of the elected Shadow Cabinet. I'm confident that will go through

:17:12.:17:21.

along with other changes. It is one of many changes I think we'll see.

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It is only the first step. At the Tory speech in Wrexham, the

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outlined a number of changes about making the Labour Party look at

:17:30.:17:40.
:17:40.:17:43.

weird and not in word. His time running out for Ed Miliband? -- in

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words. I think time ran out when he took the job. I welcome the

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important changes he made. The Shadow Cabinet elections were

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ridiculous when Labour MPs voted to keep them last year. I think it is

:17:58.:18:03.

ridiculous they're voting to get rid of them today. It is not hugely

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important. It does matter. Any leader ought to Beale to appoint

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their own people. What is more important are the changes where Ed

:18:12.:18:16.

Miliband has decided he is on the side of the voters when it comes to

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crime and law and order. Let me bring Michael back in. Labour

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people have not been for him themselves over to come out and

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support Ed Miliband. Lord Goldsmith, when asked, does Mr Mellor band

:18:34.:18:43.

still need to prove himself? He said, yes he does. -- Ed Miliband.

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Is that the best Labour people can do? Most members of the Labour

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Party would not know who look Goldsmith was. Look at what he has

:18:53.:19:03.
:19:03.:19:04.

done! You think his comment is of no virtue. It is not representative.

:19:04.:19:07.

We had the U-turn from this government. He has turned us into a

:19:07.:19:14.

very effective opposition. I think it is sustained pressure from the

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opposition. I think we get a little help along the way. He wants to

:19:18.:19:22.

turn this from an effective opposition to a future government

:19:22.:19:32.

and that means big changes. fact is, as long as Labour stays

:19:32.:19:36.

ahead in the polls, and this was not true under Iain Duncan-Smith,

:19:36.:19:42.

his personal ratings are as bad as those of Ed Miliband. The Tories

:19:42.:19:46.

are way behind Labour in the polls. As long as Labour has eight

:19:46.:19:51.

consecutive months, they were not get rid of them. I do not think it

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is to do with the opinion polls alone, it is to do with a lack of

:19:55.:20:02.

an alternative. The only realistic alternative is the brother of Ed

:20:02.:20:07.

Miliband. Ed Miliband is likely to lead Labour into the next election.

:20:07.:20:11.

I think the Labour Party is have a terribly bad situation. It is a bad

:20:11.:20:16.

for everyone who wants to see Labour win. How much comfort to you

:20:16.:20:18.

take from the reassuring fact that your leader is slightly more

:20:18.:20:26.

popular than Nick Clegg for --? real elections would real voters,

:20:26.:20:30.

we have won four by-elections on the bounce, including some

:20:30.:20:36.

difficult fights been in the Clyde. They have hundreds more councillors.

:20:36.:20:43.

We need to do better in the south and Scotland. It is good work in

:20:43.:20:48.

progress at the moment. You are a Tory peer. Do you share the view I

:20:48.:20:52.

have heard express several times by leading Tories that Mr Ed Miliband

:20:52.:21:01.

is the best asset you have. He is a remarkably good asset. He has taken

:21:01.:21:05.

a risk in getting rid of elections in the Shadow Cabinet. He wants

:21:05.:21:10.

people around him who he can trust and can work with. Why is there a

:21:10.:21:16.

risk? It is a risk because of the power of the trade unions. They

:21:16.:21:21.

play a hugely important role. has said, do not go on strike.

:21:21.:21:25.

reason he got elected in the first place and beat his brother was that

:21:25.:21:31.

he was put in there with the help of the trade unions. If he house

:21:31.:21:36.

them in terms of them having a say in terms of who is in the Shadow

:21:36.:21:41.

Cabinet, he is taking a risk. Maybe that risk is worth it. It is a very

:21:42.:21:47.

tough choice. I do not quite see the Tory Shadow Cabinet ever being

:21:47.:21:51.

elected but we leave it there. Are we any good at complaining in this

:21:51.:22:00.

country? Oh, yes. Some of us are champions! I'm sure our guest of

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the day, Peta Buscombe, chair of the Press Complaints Commission,

:22:02.:22:06.

thinks we're too good. But when we do complain, do we get an adequate

:22:06.:22:09.

response? The Government is currently consulting on how to make

:22:09.:22:19.
:22:19.:22:26.

it easier to make a fuss. Giles has been looking into this himself. We

:22:26.:22:29.

Brits are not natural complainers. There was a generation, is

:22:29.:22:34.

something was wrong, they would just say, we just won't come again.

:22:34.:22:39.

But we have got better. We are complaining more and arguably it is

:22:39.:22:49.
:22:49.:22:56.

Mrs Peggy for Clarke wrote to us about her dustbin. It left with the

:22:56.:23:03.

dust men one morning and it is still missing. They told me I could

:23:03.:23:07.

have a bag or a sack. Other sooner have a been so went to bring it

:23:07.:23:13.

back. Being able to complaint is a fundamental democratic right. It is

:23:13.:23:20.

up to you to grasp the nettle and complain. Keep going! Why, oh why,

:23:20.:23:25.

oh why? Most Brits will not still complaint unless it is something

:23:25.:23:29.

that is really important because they do not think it would make any

:23:29.:23:34.

difference. I think it is changing slowly. There are more channels. It

:23:34.:23:38.

is easy to work of any male will send a tweet to an organisation

:23:38.:23:48.
:23:48.:23:50.

that has annoyed you. -- whack off an e-mail. People who e-mail are

:23:50.:23:59.

nearly always happier than people who write in. I am being held in

:23:59.:24:02.

ecus. Michael is extremely important to them, apparently. If

:24:02.:24:07.

it were, Your coverage of person at the end of the phone. The real

:24:07.:24:12.

problem is having a real person to complain to. In giant organisations,

:24:12.:24:16.

you may have an e-mail address but there's no real person you can talk

:24:16.:24:24.

to. You have a suspicion that you are hitting a bit of the computer

:24:24.:24:31.

which gets a standard response. Thank you so much the of bread-and-

:24:31.:24:38.

butter reply to my complaint. us an e-mail to this address and we

:24:38.:24:44.

will send a standard reply back is about appearing to care. We do

:24:44.:24:50.

think we're getting more angry as a society. We asked people and they

:24:50.:24:56.

say, a no. If all else fails, I suggest to become a freelance

:24:56.:24:59.

reporter for Horse and Hound and grin of the Press Office.

:24:59.:25:09.
:25:09.:25:14.

usually does have an effect. -- Even if you do not talk to a

:25:14.:25:19.

machine, sometimes you talk to a person who is reading off a sheet.

:25:19.:25:25.

They have prescribed answers. not ring up. You are going to be

:25:25.:25:30.

listening to music for the long time. It is remarkable how long it

:25:30.:25:35.

takes. The written word is far more effective. Who reads this? I

:25:35.:25:41.

imagine they are piled underpins. You need to personalise the

:25:42.:25:46.

complaint and find an individual to write to. Do not just write to the

:25:46.:25:52.

chief executive, write to the financial director. How do you

:25:52.:25:59.

respond to those letters which are addressed to you personally? I am

:25:59.:26:05.

so pro complaints. You say I do not welcome complaints, that is what

:26:05.:26:15.
:26:15.:26:15.

the other full. I asked the question. -- what we are there for.

:26:15.:26:20.

We put up a fantastic new advertising campaign to encourage

:26:20.:26:25.

the public to come to us. It is easier to complain now, which is

:26:25.:26:29.

good. It is channelled so people have the right outcomes. Sometimes

:26:30.:26:35.

companies want to give you the appearance they are caring and

:26:35.:26:39.

sharing. They pay lip service to the idea of complaining. London

:26:39.:26:43.

Underground will give you a little token if you tick the boxes. That

:26:43.:26:51.

is what they want you to do. I'll weep easily fobbed off? We are. --

:26:51.:26:59.

are weep easily fobbed off? What we really crave is a dialogue with a

:27:00.:27:04.

real human being. I am surprised to say that. You should see some of

:27:04.:27:11.

the deters of the way that people complain to us. -- the details. It

:27:11.:27:16.

is a public service, people come to us. We work closely with all sorts

:27:16.:27:21.

of agencies. We resolve complaints to the satisfaction of most people.

:27:21.:27:26.

We care about the harm and the hurt they have felt at the butt end of

:27:26.:27:31.

the press. Someone watching us wants to complain about this

:27:31.:27:37.

programme, what do they do? report came up last week saying

:27:37.:27:41.

that the worst place in the world to complain to is the BBC for a

:27:41.:27:46.

stub your complaints system is of rubbish. I would not e-mail, I

:27:46.:27:55.

would not write in. Try and find an individual. I to take the point

:27:55.:28:01.

that people do care. The managing director of Tesco and Marks &

:28:01.:28:05.

Spencer does care about the organisation. Why don't I just

:28:05.:28:14.

write a block where her moan about it? It gets tweeted. -- a block,

:28:14.:28:22.

where I moan about it. The moment it is on the internet, it can be

:28:22.:28:28.

inflammatory. Go back to an old- fashioned expression. I love a good

:28:28.:28:37.

moan. If you want to complain, do not write to me, right to Anita.

:28:37.:28:44.

Tamara is Prime Minister's Questions and we are on early. --

:28:44.:28:48.

It is alleged that the mobile phone of murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler was hacked by a private investigator working for News of the World - where will the scandal end? The programme speaks to Press Complaints Commission chairman and Conservative peer Baroness Peta Buscombe who is the day's guest.

Ed Miliband wants the right to choose his own Shadow Cabinet, but will it be enough to stamp his authority on the party? Michael Dugher MP and John Rentoul, chief political commentator for the Independent on Sunday, give their views.

Plus, the government want to make it easier to complain - but will it make any difference to our consumer culture?


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