06/07/2011 Daily Politics


06/07/2011

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Good morning, this is the Daily Politics. Tabloid journalism in the

:00:22.:00:27.

dock. More damaging allegations over phone hacking at News of the

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World. Claims that its former editor, Andy Coulson, once David

:00:31.:00:33.

Cameron's right-hand man, authorised payments to police

:00:33.:00:38.

officers. Where will it all end? MPs debate the whole affair this

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afternoon. We'll have the latest. Who wants to take on David Cameron

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at PMQs? Last week it was The Speaker. This week, will Ed make

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more of a mark? Join us for all the live action at midday. We celebrate

:00:55.:00:57.

the achievements of the House of Commons Backbench Business

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Committee. It is not as boring as it sounds. In fact, quite the

:01:02.:01:12.

opposite. And what do the French do best? Strike of course. PY Gerbeau

:01:12.:01:22.
:01:22.:01:23.

tells us why we should not be Yes, all that and more coming up in

:01:23.:01:32.

the next 90 minutes of TV wizardry at its best. And with us for the

:01:32.:01:35.

duration, we have the Voldermort and Dumbledore of political thought.

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I leave it to you to decide which is which. Yes, with us today is

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Tony Blair's former Director of Communications, Alistair Campbell,

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and the former Shadow Home Secretary, David Davis. Now first

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let's turn our attention to a story that caught our eye on page six of

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:02:05.:02:11.

It may be a good day to very bad news. Because, this afternoon, the

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House of Commons is to hold an emergency debate about the News of

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the World phone hacking controversy - a story we covered in depth

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yesterday. New allegations have emerged overnight and this morning.

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Anita has more. The pressure is piling up on Rupert Murdoch's News

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International. We already know of allegations that Milly Dowler's

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phone was hacked and now it has been alleged the parents of the

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murdered Soham girls, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, may have also

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had their phones intercepted. It has also been revealed that at

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least one family of one of the 7/7 bombing victims has been contacted

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by the police and told their phone may have been hacked. Another

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parent has said he was contacted. But that's not all, News

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International have now confirmed that they have handed emails over

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to an investigation which allegedly shows former News of the World

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Editor, Andy Coulson, authorised payments to the police. This brings

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the saga right to the door of David Cameron as Mr Coulson was

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previously the Prime Minister's Director of Communications before

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he resigned. The allegations also heap pressure on Rebekah Brooks,

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now a senior executive at News International, who was Editor of

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News of the World when the voicemails of Milly Dowler were

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allegedly intercepted. But it is not just News International

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newspapers who are making the headlines. Along with the Sun, the

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Daily Mirror has been charged with contempt of court over stories

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published following the murder of Jo Yeates. Little wonder perhaps

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that a recent MORI poll on public trust found that only 19% of people

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They trust presenters a bit more. We're joined now by the former

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Chairman of the Conservative Party, Norman Fowler, who has been calling

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for an urgent independent inquiry into how the media operates. You'd

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do not, at the moment, look as if you're going to get your way, am I

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right? I think you are probably wrong. I have been doing this for

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six months. Bit by bit the Government has been edging towards

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it. Yesterday, a minister said in the House of Lords they were not

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actually going to rule it out. I think we will get it. I do not

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understand why the Government does not do it. They have said they have

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to wait for the police inquiry. Are they right to do that? Yes. You can

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announce it now that after the police inquiries are ended and the

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court cases have come to an end, then you can do that. It should go

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much wider than News of the World and phone hacking. We have

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discussed in the use of private investigations, the links between

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police and private investigators have - it is criminality at

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virtually every level of newspapers. Norman has been pushing on this for

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some time. The press has been in denial. If David Cameron has any

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sense, he will announce a wide- ranging inquiry to take place as

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soon as it is practical. Who could do it? It is difficult to think of

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anyone above you, or below. Personally I think it has almost

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got to a point where you need a judicial inquiry. You need the

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ability of the Chairman of the inquiry to subpoena people, bring

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them in and put them under oath. the media, we think judges are

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hostile to the press. You sometimes think that. If it has got to carry

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public support, then I think if you put a judge in charge of it, and

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other people who are expert in this area, then I think you get the best

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possible service. It has to have investigative capabilities. It will

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:06:59.:07:00.

not happen soon. We did announce an inquiry. Here you have at least one

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criminal event, if it is true, paying policeman is a criminal

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offence. Most of this hacking is a criminal offence. The three of you

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want an inquiry. How much of a mistake was it for David Cameron to

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hire and Nicholson as spin-doctor in opposition and then make him

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head of communications? -- Andy Coulson. He knew he had been

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involved and it appeared he did the honourable thing and step down.

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knew there was a hacking investigation. I do not think he

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could walk away at that point. he established eyeball to or --

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eyeball to eyeball that nothing would emerged that was potentially

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embarrassing, I can never be clear that that happened. We do know that

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step-by-step it has become more serious. It was not on the scale it

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is now. It has gone from the Westminster wine bars to every pub

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in the learned. This week it has been avalanche. We have some

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breaking news with Nick Robinson. He has been working hard this

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morning. Welcome to the programme earlier than usual on a Wednesday.

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I understand that News International executives have

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uncovered what they believed to be evidence of who in the organisation

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sanctioned and commissioned the hacking off the phone off Milly

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Dowler. You remember that Rebekah Brooks, the chief executive officer

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of News International, said when this revelation came out that she

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was shocked and appalled, I am told the evidence does not point to her.

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They did do a documentary will, and evidence trawl, including e-mail

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from within the organisation and they believe they have pieced

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together the jigsaw of who Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator

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who apologised yesterday, who exactly he was dealing with and on

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what basis. Instant mate we want to know who that is was Doug News

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International are not going to save. I cannot say because I do not know.

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I am not hinting it is Andy Coulson because I have no evidence to

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suggest it was him. He has always denied some wrongdoing. News

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International believe they know pretty clearly who was involved.

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You would assume they would have to discipline someone if they were

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still on the staff or if they do not discipline someone, they are

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suggesting it is someone who already left the building. It is

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clear that deputy heads must roll. When deputy head's role, they have

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a habit of telling you what the boss told you. It is not

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necessarily a get out of jail card for Rebekah Wade because it

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happened on her watch and it may have been one of her senior

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executives. What is interesting about that is the phrase, happened

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on her watch. And Nicholson resigned as editor of News of the

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World insisting that he did not know anything about phone hacking.

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-- Andy Coulson. He had to go because it happened on his watch.

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Rebekah Brooks does not regard that as a precedent that, in that case,

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someone had gone to prison - the royal reporter of the News of the

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World. She is not planning to resign simply because it happened

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on her watch. She said it was inconceivable she knew about it at

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the time. There is still a determination she will continue to

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lead to this company. The owners of this company - its shareholders -

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will have to contemplate whether she credibly can continue to lead

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both the investigation and the company when it is coming in for

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such huge criticism. All eyes will be on what David Cameron has to say

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at Prime Minister's questions in a few minutes' time about the scandal

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as a whole and about Andy Coulson. Just briefly on that, there is

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remarkable revelation that came out last night, I forget when but News

:11:51.:11:57.

International itself has handed over at e-mails to the police

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purporting to show that Andy Coulson was making substantial

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payments to the police itself. What do we know about that? We know that

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is what happened. News International handed over those e-

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mails. Why do we know it? Vanity Fair approached News International

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and they had the story saying that News International were withholding

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the e-mails. They said they were so determined to clear their name on

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at least the issue of co-operating with the police, they decided to

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confirm that many weeks ago they did indeed hand over e-mails that

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allegedly showed there were a series of payments to the police

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sanctioned by Andy Coulson when he was editor of News of the World. It

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makes it a more political story than it was before. I do not know

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what the Prime Minister will say. I am clear there is a mood change

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among those people around David Cameron. They realise it will no

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longer do to simply say it is a police matter, wait for the

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evidence to be uncovered. Thank you very much. If Vanity Fair can get

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stories, there will be a lot coming up. If the distinction is that

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somebody went to prison, I will be astonished when it is concluded,

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that a lot of people... If it is right to send someone to prison for

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hacking into a royal... Most people think that it is bad. We had all

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these stories from News International. They have had a

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thorough investigation. They have looked at the e-mails. Every time

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they are back on the defensive, they find new e-mails. I believe

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what has happened is because we have Prime Minister's Questions and

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there is the MPs debate, they want big brokers to switch to David

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Cameron and Andy Coulson. -- the focus. Can Rebekah Brooks survive?

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I think it will be very difficult. If Rupert Murdoch wants to touch

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things out, he well. It has now reached a position where, if I had

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been in the back of a cab with all the people that had been involved,

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they're all talking about it. It has reached eight tipping point.

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is embarrassing for David Cameron because of his relation with Andy

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Coulson. You supped with these people as well? At times. So were

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you, so were the BBC. Throughout the time of Tony Blair in Downing

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Street, I was there once. Rebekah Wade was there more than once.

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was Rupert Murdoch. You were very close. You are both just as bad.

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That makes the point. The worst thing that can happen is it becomes

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a party political debate. As you rightly say, both parties have been

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guilty of getting too near to the Rupert Murdoch press in all kinds

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of ways. What one needs to do is look at the issue itself which is

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the abuse of power. I do agree with that. Latterly towards the end of

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the Tony Blair pecked -- Premiership, I was adding that the

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press had become a real problem. Tony should be thinking about doing

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something. He always said the public cared more about health and

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education and jobs and it was not the parity. David Cameron now has

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to show some leadership on this. The public has accepted the press

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they get is not the press they deserve. The mood has changed. Nick

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is right about that. Up until a short time ago, less than 24 hours

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ago, people were still talking in terms of this is simply a media...

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David Cameron told me he was not going to do to Rupert Murdoch what

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Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell had done. Within six months he is

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doing exactly that. It seems the political leaders of our country

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feel they cannot run this country There is little doubt that the

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pressure on any Prime Minister is to talk to these people more than

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they should. Can I make one other point? Of course the pressure is

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building but the risk in politics is when the pressure gets massively

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on to one side and we have a free press and must be very careful that

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the swing the other way does not become one of over-regulation.

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is fine, as long as that inquiry includes, and I agree in principle,

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that that inquiry includes the Press Complaints Commission and

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what those powers and functions are. This has been going on for years.

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As I said to the leader of the Press Complaints Commission

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yesterday, the report said if Sega Red Ed - aka self-regulation did

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not work, we must move to statutory. In principle I still support self-

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regulation but yesterday, you're interview showed why the Press

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Complaints Commission has become such a joke. It is a body of the

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press and for the press. Any inquiry has to have investigative

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powers but policy, including what system of regulation replaces this.

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Dare I say said, these issues that have come up, they're far too big

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for any self-regulating organisation, this is about police

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not doing their job, accepting criminal action. There has always

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been a grey area in the press were we accept there is public interest

:18:25.:18:29.

for buying stolen material. And people have not objected to this

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because of the public interest but what has happened is police have

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stepped back completely and except that the police -- press can do

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what they want. This is bigger than any self-regulatory operation.

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Would anyone want the sun or the News of the World having an

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endorsement for the next election? Let me just say something. We did

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not win the election in 1987 because of the Sun. Or 1992? Even

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on that, we did not lose the election in 1982. I have myself

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said the Sun likes to be on the winning side. But that begs the

:19:13.:19:18.

question, why were you so close? In your darkest hour, the days after

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the death of David Kelly, who said to you, you have done nothing wrong,

:19:26.:19:31.

just hang in and don't give them the satisfaction? Rebekah Wade.

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was a press and communications person and it would be ordered by

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was not speaking to journalists. That is a personal message. I know.

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Painting to Downing Street endlessly... Lots of people... I am

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not saying they do not matter, I say that their influence and

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standing is overstated, not least by themselves. The son marketed

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themselves as the endorsement for the election. Of course it

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matters... Weather David Cameron not win a majority of with

:20:07.:20:11.

virtually all the press behind him? He if you have one organisation

:20:11.:20:16.

that controls almost 40% of the press, it is inevitable that that

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matters for political leaders, we must be realistic. We have not got

:20:19.:20:24.

time for the rights and wrongs. At the very least, should the

:20:24.:20:34.
:20:34.:20:34.

Government delay the Murdoch bid for BSkyB? Yes. Yes. And on that

:20:34.:20:39.

uncharacteristic and shock unanimity, we must move on. You are

:20:39.:20:46.

being held hostage. Norman Fowler, the release you! Fascinating

:20:46.:20:52.

discussion. We will go to another. I don't want any doubt out there.

:20:52.:20:58.

The very well-known statutory instruments committee. It is a body

:20:58.:21:05.

we like to keep close tabs on every now and then. Stop that! Yesterday

:21:05.:21:08.

the members backed a proposal to make extra loans worth around �9

:21:08.:21:10.

billion available to the International Monetary Fund to fund

:21:10.:21:14.

the bailout of Greece. However, Labour members voted no and a group

:21:14.:21:17.

of Conservative non-members gate- crashed the meeting to vent their

:21:17.:21:25.

fury at the plans. Because of the vote in favour, the proposal should

:21:25.:21:28.

go to what's known as a silent vote in the house, but the rebels

:21:28.:21:31.

haven't given up hope and one of the chief troublemakers, the

:21:31.:21:41.
:21:41.:21:43.

Conservative MP, Douglas Carswell, joins us now. Before we learn about

:21:43.:21:49.

the noise you'll make, tell us what happened yesterday. These

:21:49.:21:52.

committees are normally very staid affairs and the powers that be

:21:52.:21:55.

expect to get business through. On lot of none committee members who

:21:55.:22:00.

felt strongly about this, and you can buy long-term care for older

:22:00.:22:03.

folk with that money and it is wrong to increase the subscription

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in this way. We turned up to say what we thought our constituents

:22:06.:22:11.

would like us to say. I'm very pleased that on the strength of the

:22:11.:22:14.

argument, Labour voted against these proposals and there will be a

:22:14.:22:18.

ballot of the whole house. Short of making a racket about this, you

:22:18.:22:23.

will not be able to change anything? I am not so sure. There

:22:23.:22:28.

is a fundamental problem, the IMF seems to preside over the first be

:22:28.:22:32.

like in history that has involved ladling more water into the boat.

:22:32.:22:37.

Traditionally, the IMF has followed the principle of what you might

:22:37.:22:42.

call devaluation of the currency, defaulting on debt and downsizing

:22:42.:22:47.

the public sector. Yet, in the Eurozone, it does the opposite and

:22:47.:22:52.

by coughing up �9.2 billion, we allow this problem to be made worse.

:22:52.:22:57.

That is an issue of real concern. Thank you very much. Let's turn to

:22:57.:23:01.

the panel. Is there any justification for giving this money

:23:01.:23:06.

to the IMF when they needed so badly at home? I have not follow

:23:06.:23:10.

the argument they had yesterday but I can see circumstances when it

:23:10.:23:15.

would be, yes. Even though we have the obligation, you would say...?

:23:15.:23:21.

Should we? I can see circumstances were we could. Just because we have

:23:21.:23:25.

massive problems domestically, it does not mean you don't have

:23:25.:23:29.

international obligations. I did not follow the debate yesterday but

:23:29.:23:33.

I can see circumstances were that could be the case. Labour MPs say

:23:33.:23:38.

no, we hate this. They were at this and they are across the argument.

:23:38.:23:42.

You asked me the question if I could see the circumstances and I

:23:42.:23:48.

say yes, I can. I am trying to find out whether, even though we have

:23:48.:23:52.

the obligation, if we should be able to back out gracefully? Is it

:23:52.:23:57.

morally wrong to give this money away? The Treasury minister today

:23:57.:24:00.

said we have to pay this money or we will lose a receipt at the table.

:24:00.:24:05.

It must be the most expensive armchair in history. The truth is,

:24:05.:24:10.

the IMF should not do this, they should leave it to the ECB. The

:24:10.:24:14.

real point is that bailing out something, bailing out a country

:24:14.:24:17.

and actually softening the blow for the country, the country must take

:24:17.:24:24.

measures itself to bring its own economy under control. There are

:24:24.:24:31.

strings attached and you have listened to this. Yes... My point

:24:31.:24:35.

is we cannot separate the globalised economy and domestic and

:24:35.:24:42.

international. Very briefly, do we keep that seat at the table at any

:24:42.:24:46.

cost? Of course, we do not keep the seat at any cost but we must take

:24:46.:24:51.

the arguments on its merits. I have not followed this argument, I say

:24:51.:24:54.

that we do have as a big international player, we must

:24:54.:25:01.

recognise this. Thank you but very much for being with us. Reports are

:25:01.:25:05.

coming to us that this might be the last we see of Speaker Bercow for a

:25:05.:25:08.

while. Stop crying at the back! After the robust exchanges between

:25:08.:25:11.

him and the Prime Minister last week, an aide to David Cameron has

:25:11.:25:14.

suggested John Bercow could now be off to Afghanistan to take part in

:25:14.:25:21.

a job swap with the speaker of the Afghan parliament. No doubt Channel

:25:21.:25:25.

4 will have a reality show on this! Lucky old him. Apparently, Mr

:25:25.:25:29.

Bercow says he'll only go if he can take a Daily Politics mug with him.

:25:29.:25:33.

But he hasn't got one, so he'll have to enter this week's Guess the

:25:33.:25:38.

Year competition. Yes, indeed. Hope you're watching carefully, Mr

:25:38.:25:48.
:25:48.:26:04.

Speaker. We are on iPlayer! Can you There is so much harassment, we

:26:04.:26:14.
:26:14.:26:28.

None of the members of the commission are Marxist and the

:26:28.:26:38.
:26:38.:26:44.

arguments on the report are well- A Labour council hiring taxis to

:26:44.:26:54.
:26:54.:26:57.

scuttle around the city and hand It is ideal for shopping, any

:26:57.:27:07.
:27:07.:27:16.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:27:16.:27:19.

answer to our special quiz email address. That's [email protected]

:27:19.:27:22.

You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess the Year on

:27:22.:27:29.

our website, bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Are used

:27:29.:27:39.
:27:39.:27:42.

during his tea for him? Cross- party! -- are used during his tea?

:27:42.:27:46.

Anyway, enough of this trivia! It's coming up to midday. Just take a

:27:46.:27:50.

look at Big Ben. That can mean only one thing: Yes, Prime Minister's

:27:50.:27:53.

Questions is on its way. And that's not all. James Landale is with us,

:27:53.:27:59.

just back from accompanying the Prime Minister to Afghanistan.

:27:59.:28:04.

Welcome back. Congratulations. Thank you. You told us that sending

:28:04.:28:08.

the Speaker to Afghanistan isn't a joke? It is true, he will go out

:28:08.:28:12.

there. We will get the Afghans bickered and MPs and Peers will be

:28:12.:28:16.

sent out there, it's to beef up the Afghan parliamentary institutions.

:28:16.:28:25.

That is the theory. That will really work. Hacking? Very hard for

:28:25.:28:30.

the two front benches to ignore this. Both would rather. What

:28:30.:28:35.

tactic does Mr Miliband play to get at Mr Cameron? It's a big Judgement

:28:35.:28:39.

Call, for Ed Miliband, something which he presents himself as a

:28:39.:28:44.

tribune of the people for? Putting pressure on the political Whitehall

:28:44.:28:51.

Westminster elite? Or does he focus more on David Cameron's judgment in

:28:51.:28:55.

Harry Andy Coulson. That is the choice he has. David Cameron, I

:28:55.:28:59.

have been to a briefing at the Prime Minister's spokesman office

:28:59.:29:02.

and we have no view on whether there should be an inquiry, just

:29:02.:29:06.

the Government has the view that MPs should do get this. That line

:29:06.:29:11.

will not hold. Does David Cameron be bold and does he say something

:29:11.:29:16.

has to change? And how far does he go? Does he keep this to the narrow

:29:16.:29:20.

focus on what happened but does he said we need a wider look at the

:29:20.:29:24.

whole issue of media regulation? What angle would you advise and to

:29:24.:29:29.

tie? The first. I would not go down the road of Andy Coulson and

:29:29.:29:33.

Stephen Cameron, this is a bigger subject and he must stay focused on

:29:33.:29:37.

the public revulsion and the public belief that there has to be changed

:29:37.:29:41.

in the media system. If David Cameron is sensible, he will start

:29:41.:29:44.

the process by which there will be an inquiry leading to a new system

:29:44.:29:48.

of regulation. Afghanistan has been overshadowed by this, right or

:29:48.:29:54.

wrong, but there will be a statement? We were on a flight

:29:54.:29:58.

yesterday morning and the only arrived in the UK at 10pm last

:29:58.:30:02.

night so do it Cameron has had a lot of catching up to do. There has

:30:02.:30:06.

been a lot of work overnight and in terms of Ghana Stan, we will get a

:30:06.:30:10.

reduction in troop numbers, around 500. The point is, David Cameron

:30:10.:30:14.

has given in to the generals and he will delay this until the back end

:30:14.:30:18.

of next year. There is a good few fighting seasons with large troop

:30:18.:30:23.

numbers static. The message from the Government to the rest of the

:30:23.:30:27.

NATO allies is, do what we do, not the Americans. But we must follow

:30:27.:30:32.

the Americans? We are entirely dependent on their support system?

:30:32.:30:36.

David Cameron's a collisions that by saying all combat troops will be

:30:36.:30:41.

out by the end of 2014 gives them some slack and within that period,

:30:41.:30:45.

to delay that process and he feels that he can do this by making

:30:45.:30:49.

another statement. He must follow the aggregate timetable and he must

:30:49.:30:54.

make sure the troops are as safe as possible. They will say, cut strips

:30:54.:30:58.

and cost lives. Those who remain will be more vulnerable? Exactly.

:30:59.:31:06.

I'm quite sure that will be the argument. You sense any U-turn?

:31:06.:31:09.

is under huge public pressure. Whenever David Cameron talks about

:31:09.:31:13.

this he talks about the context of... Yesterday, he said these are

:31:13.:31:17.

the questions the public are asking. This is the reassurance I can give.

:31:17.:31:27.

That is his context. Let's go I am sure the whole House will wish

:31:27.:31:32.

to join me in paying tribute to Scott McLaren of The Royal Regiment

:31:33.:31:38.

of Scotland. This week I witnessed at first hand the sacrifice of our

:31:38.:31:41.

soldiers. I pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of this

:31:41.:31:46.

particular soldier who was lost in such tragic circumstances. Our

:31:46.:31:51.

thoughts will be with his family and friends. We pay tribute to him

:31:51.:31:55.

and all like him his serve our country so magnificently in

:31:55.:31:58.

Afghanistan and elsewhere. This morning I had meetings with

:31:59.:32:03.

ministerial colleagues and others. I shall have further such meetings

:32:03.:32:13.
:32:13.:32:13.

later today. I agree with the sentiments the Prime Minister has

:32:13.:32:19.

made. It is a dreaded going thinking about the knock on the

:32:19.:32:25.

door and he is lost in action. Our sympathies go with his father and

:32:25.:32:31.

family at that particular time. Is it right, Mr Speaker, that

:32:31.:32:39.

yesterday we gave �10 billion to be bailed out of the bank's in Greece?

:32:39.:32:46.

We gave �7 billion to the bail out in Ireland. We gave 100 billion -

:32:46.:32:53.

of this is the British tax pair - 100 billion a year for the quality

:32:53.:32:59.

of the banks in this country, for insurance purposes and other

:32:59.:33:04.

purposes. Why does the Prime Minister not get on his bike and go

:33:04.:33:14.
:33:14.:33:18.

down to his friends in the City and sack the few spivs and speculators?

:33:18.:33:23.

First of all, it is this government that has put a bank levy on the

:33:23.:33:27.

banks so they are paying more in every year than they paid in the

:33:27.:33:32.

bank bonus tax under the last government. In terms of Greece, I

:33:32.:33:37.

have kept us out of the European bale out of Greece. In Ireland,

:33:37.:33:41.

that economy is so close and integrated, it is right we give

:33:41.:33:46.

them support. That is the right approach. This government is tough

:33:46.:33:53.

in making sure the banks pay their fair share. Severe drought,

:33:54.:33:57.

conflict and food prices have combined viciously in the Horn of

:33:57.:34:02.

Africa creating desperate hunger and threatening the lives of

:34:02.:34:10.

millions. What is the Government doing to help? As ever, we are

:34:10.:34:14.

being extremely effective in trying to help with the crisis where 10

:34:14.:34:19.

million people are at threat of starvation. We are right to

:34:20.:34:25.

maintain and increase our spending in this area - difficult as the

:34:25.:34:30.

arguments sometimes are. In spite of the difficulties, it is nothing

:34:30.:34:36.

like these people facing starvation and death unless we help them.

:34:36.:34:41.

I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Highlander Scott

:34:41.:34:45.

McCarron of the Highlanders forced Battalion The Royal Regiment of

:34:45.:34:50.

Scotland. He was young man, serving our country who died in the most

:34:50.:34:54.

horrific circumstances. The thoughts of the whole House are

:34:54.:34:58.

with his family and friends. The whole country has been appalled

:34:58.:35:04.

about the allegations of phone hacking - the 7/7 victims, the

:35:04.:35:10.

parents of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, and of course Milly Dowler.

:35:10.:35:15.

That anyone could listen to the messages and delete them, giving

:35:15.:35:21.

false hope to those parents, is immoral and a disgrace. Given the

:35:21.:35:26.

gravity of what has occurred, will the Prime Minister's support the

:35:26.:35:32.

calls for a ball, independent, public inquiry into the practices

:35:32.:35:39.

of British newspapers? Let me be very clear, yes, we do need to have

:35:39.:35:44.

an inquiry, possibly inquiries into what has happened. We're no longer

:35:44.:35:50.

talking about politicians and celebrities. We are talking about

:35:50.:35:56.

murder victims, potentially terrorist victims, it is absolutely

:35:56.:36:00.

disgusting. Everyone in this House and the country will be revolted at

:36:00.:36:05.

what they have heard and seen on the television. May I make a couple

:36:05.:36:10.

of points? People need to know there is a major police

:36:10.:36:14.

investigation under way. It is one of the biggest police

:36:14.:36:20.

investigations currently under way in our country. It does not involve

:36:20.:36:23.

the police officers who were involved in the original

:36:23.:36:29.

investigation. That clearly did not get to the trees. It is important

:36:29.:36:34.

we had inquiries that are public and independent and have public

:36:34.:36:39.

confidence. It seems there are two vital issues we need to look into.

:36:39.:36:43.

The first is the original police inquiry and why did not get to the

:36:43.:36:47.

bottom of what happened and the second is about the behaviour of

:36:47.:36:53.

individual people and individual media organisations. A wider look

:36:53.:36:58.

into media practices and ethics in this country. As he says, we cannot

:36:58.:37:02.

start all that sort of inquiry immediately because you must not

:37:02.:37:07.

jeopardise the police investigation. It may be possible to start some of

:37:07.:37:11.

that work earlier. I'm very happy to discuss this with him, with

:37:11.:37:15.

other party leaders to make sure we get this right and that lessons are

:37:16.:37:22.

learnt from what has become a disgraceful episode. Let me say to

:37:22.:37:26.

the Prime Minister I am encouraged that he does recognise now the need

:37:26.:37:31.

for a full public inquiry into what happened. He is right to say this

:37:31.:37:39.

the police investigation has taken its course. As he said in his

:37:39.:37:44.

answer, that may take some years. It is possible for the Prime

:37:44.:37:49.

Minister to start his process now. He should immediately appoint a

:37:49.:37:54.

senior figure, potentially a judge, to lead this inquiry. Make clear it

:37:54.:37:58.

will have the power to call witnesses under oath and establish

:37:58.:38:03.

clear terms of reference, covering a number of key issues. The culture

:38:03.:38:07.

and practices of the industry, the nature of regulation which is

:38:07.:38:12.

absolutely crucial, and also the relationship between the police and

:38:12.:38:18.

the media. I wonder whether he can just respond on those points.

:38:18.:38:23.

want to respond positively. Of the two issues I mentioned, the conduct

:38:23.:38:27.

of the earlier police inquiry and the broader lessons about ethics in

:38:27.:38:32.

the media, I do not think it is possible to start an investigation

:38:32.:38:37.

into the format until the police investigation is continued. There

:38:37.:38:42.

would be a danger of jeopardising the current police inquiry. I do

:38:42.:38:45.

think responding positively to what he says it may be possible to make

:38:45.:38:50.

a start on other elements. I do not want us to rush this decision. I

:38:50.:38:55.

want us to get it right, having discussed it with other party

:38:55.:38:58.

leaders, the Attorney-General and the Cabinet Secretary. All too

:38:58.:39:02.

often these inquiries are set up to early without thinking through what

:39:02.:39:12.
:39:12.:39:12.

needs to be done. I think the Prime estate is applied -- implying that

:39:12.:39:20.

it can start now and it is very important that we do so. A beer to

:39:20.:39:29.

the day, he did appoint an inquiry about the treatment of detainees.

:39:29.:39:34.

Let me go on to ask him about what happens in the meantime pending

:39:34.:39:39.

this public inquiry. We have consistently said the BSkyB bid

:39:39.:39:42.

should be referred to the Competition Commission and not

:39:42.:39:46.

dealt with in the way the Culture Secretary has done. The Prime

:39:46.:39:52.

Minister must realise the public will react with disbelief if, next

:39:52.:39:57.

week, the decision is taken to go ahead with this deal at the time

:39:57.:40:02.

when news International is subject to a major criminal investigation

:40:02.:40:07.

and we do not yet know who charges will be laid against. Does the

:40:07.:40:12.

Prime Minister agree the BSkyB bid should now be referred to the

:40:12.:40:16.

Competition Commission to provide a breathing space that is required?

:40:16.:40:21.

Let me answer the point about Gibson. It is a good and fair point.

:40:21.:40:27.

We established the Gibson Inquiry but it has not made much process --

:40:27.:40:31.

progress until criminal proceedings had been brought to an end. You do

:40:32.:40:36.

not want to jeopardise a police operation which you would do so if

:40:36.:40:40.

you start questioning witnesses through a public inquiry process at

:40:40.:40:44.

the same time they are being questioned through a police process.

:40:44.:40:50.

I want us to get on with this issue. The faster we can set up other

:40:50.:40:54.

elements of the inquiry, the happier I will be. About BSkyB,

:40:54.:40:59.

what we have done is followed the correct legal processes. That is

:40:59.:41:06.

what the Government has to do. The Secretary of State is in a quiet

:41:06.:41:12.

side judicial rale - he has to follow that. The leader of the

:41:12.:41:17.

Labour Party said that the issue of competition and plurality is

:41:17.:41:20.

separate from the very important issue we are discussing today.

:41:20.:41:25.

These processes must be followed properly, including bike of calm.

:41:25.:41:34.

They have the duty to make a recommendation. -- including by

:41:34.:41:40.

Ofcom. Mr Speaker, I am afraid that answer was out of touch. The public

:41:40.:41:47.

will not accept the idea that, with this scandal engulfing the News of

:41:47.:41:50.

the World and News International, that the Government should, in the

:41:50.:41:55.

coming days be making a decision outside of the normal processes for

:41:55.:42:00.

them to take control of one of the biggest media organisations in the

:42:01.:42:05.

country. I know this is difficult for him but I strongly urge him to

:42:05.:42:10.

think again and send this decision to the proper authority, which is

:42:10.:42:14.

the Competition Commission. This will provide breathing space for

:42:14.:42:19.

legitimacy and the proper decisions to be made. I would say to him that

:42:19.:42:24.

the decision making has been through the proper processes. It is

:42:24.:42:27.

right the Government acts are legally in every way. That is what

:42:27.:42:32.

it has done. One is about morality and ethics and a police

:42:32.:42:37.

investigator that needs to be carried out in the proper way. They

:42:37.:42:41.

have total independence. The other is about plurality and competition

:42:41.:42:46.

which has to act under the law. Incredible as he has done a U-turn

:42:46.:42:53.

in order to look good in the House of Commons. Mr Speaker, this is not

:42:53.:43:03.
:43:03.:43:05.

the time for technicalities or low We have said consistently,

:43:05.:43:10.

throughout this process, that this bid should be referred to the

:43:10.:43:14.

Competition Commission. This is the right way forward. The Prime

:43:14.:43:20.

Minister should speak for the country on this issue. This is what

:43:20.:43:25.

people want him to do. I hope he will think again because it is in

:43:25.:43:28.

the interests of the media industry and the British public that this is

:43:28.:43:32.

properly referred to the Competition Commission in the way

:43:32.:43:37.

that all other bids are dealt with. What we also know, as well as

:43:37.:43:42.

needing a public inquiry and the BSkyB bid referred to the

:43:42.:43:45.

Competition Commission, these were not the actions of a rogue

:43:45.:43:50.

individual or a road reporter but part of a wider, systematic pattern

:43:50.:43:58.

of the abuses. The public sees no one wanting to take responsibility

:43:58.:44:03.

for what happened. No one is denying the phone off Milly Dowler

:44:03.:44:10.

was hat. No one is denying it happened on the watch of the editor

:44:10.:44:15.

of the newspaper at the time. Will the Prime Minister join me if he

:44:15.:44:18.

believes the people taking responsibility for insane she

:44:18.:44:26.

should take responsibility and consider her position? -- in saying.

:44:26.:44:30.

Let me deal with the technicalities. When you are dealing with the law,

:44:30.:44:33.

you have to look at the technicalities because there is

:44:33.:44:38.

something called up to process that you have to follow. That is

:44:38.:44:45.

necessary for any government. -- called due process. Everyone needs

:44:46.:44:50.

to ask searching questions at News International. Everyone is subject

:44:50.:44:54.

to one of the largest police investigations under way in this

:44:54.:44:58.

country. We should let the police do their work was done they should

:44:59.:45:03.

follow the evidence, Brett it needs was a big people are guilty of

:45:03.:45:08.

wrongdoing, they should have no hesitation in making sure they are

:45:08.:45:18.
:45:18.:45:19.

I am clear, she should take responsibility and stand down. And

:45:19.:45:24.

Mr Speaker, these events show a systematic set of abuses which

:45:24.:45:27.

demonstrate the abuse of power without responsibility in the

:45:27.:45:30.

country and is in the interests of democracy and the public that these

:45:30.:45:33.

are sorted out. With the biggest press scandal in modern times

:45:33.:45:37.

getting worse by the day, I'm afraid he has not shown the

:45:37.:45:41.

leadership necessary today. He has not shown in leadership necessary

:45:41.:45:46.

on BSkyB, or on a News International. And is it not the

:45:46.:45:52.

case that if the public is to have confidence in him, he must accept

:45:52.:45:59.

that he made a catastrophic error of judgment by bringing Andy

:45:59.:46:09.

Coulson... Into the heart of his Downing Street machine? What

:46:09.:46:15.

people... Order! Order! The Prime Minister should not have to shout

:46:15.:46:20.

to be heard or should the leader of the opposition. It is thoroughly

:46:20.:46:25.

disorderly. The Prime Minister will be heard. I take full

:46:25.:46:28.

responsibility for everyone I employed and everyone I. And I take

:46:28.:46:31.

responsibility for everything my Government does. What this

:46:32.:46:36.

Government is doing is making sure that the public, and I felt

:46:36.:46:40.

appalled by what has happened, murder victims, terrorist victims

:46:41.:46:45.

who have had their phones tapped, that is disgraceful and there must

:46:45.:46:48.

be a full police investigation of all the powers they need. That is

:46:48.:46:51.

why it is important we have as inquiries to get to the bottom of

:46:51.:46:55.

what went wrong and the lessons that need learning. That is why we

:46:55.:46:58.

need to enquire as to how we improve the ethics and morals of

:46:58.:47:01.

the press in this country and make sure they improve for the future.

:47:02.:47:04.

That is what needs to be done and what this Government is doing and

:47:04.:47:11.

we don't have to take lectures from him about it. Nicky Morgan. Thank

:47:11.:47:17.

you. For the year 9 pupils at a high-school and my constituency,

:47:17.:47:22.

they have joined hundreds of other pupils to the send my sister to

:47:22.:47:25.

school campaign and will the Prime Minister and support to the scores

:47:25.:47:29.

and I should not remind people that good education here or overseas

:47:29.:47:34.

transforms children's lives and their life chances. I am delighted

:47:34.:47:38.

to welcome the campaign that she mentions and her personal support.

:47:38.:47:43.

The fact is that across the world there are 39 million curls out of

:47:43.:47:47.

school and even if they are in school, the gender gaps we see are

:47:47.:47:52.

appalling and in the UK, with the aid budget, we are securing

:47:52.:47:57.

schooling for 11 million children by 2015, that is more in the UK but

:47:57.:48:02.

we can do this at 2.5% of the cost. This is a good investment for

:48:02.:48:08.

British taxpayers to make sure we reduce inequality in the world.

:48:08.:48:11.

the Prime Minister explain whether he thinks the cost of his NHS

:48:11.:48:15.

reforms, set to rise even further with the revelation that a new

:48:15.:48:18.

super quango in the NHS will be created, might be partly

:48:18.:48:21.

responsible for the funding squeeze affecting health services in

:48:21.:48:27.

Harrow? It puts at risk services at the popular Alexandria Avenue

:48:27.:48:32.

clinic in my constituency. What we have seen since this Government has

:48:32.:48:36.

taken office is more than 2000 doctors and 4000 fewer managers.

:48:36.:48:40.

And we're cutting bureaucracy by one-third. They don't like to hear

:48:40.:48:45.

it, but if we follow their plans and cut in a chest and -- spending,

:48:45.:48:49.

we would see the numbers of doctors and nurses coming down and just

:48:49.:48:53.

this morning we have seen the numbers of diagnostic tests going

:48:53.:49:00.

up. Because of the investment going in under this Government. The Prime

:49:00.:49:04.

Minister will be aware of the news this morning that Portugal's debt

:49:04.:49:07.

has been downgraded. Does he agree that it is a warning to every

:49:07.:49:12.

member of this house that you cannot put off difficult decisions

:49:12.:49:19.

and the only plan B is bankruptcy? My friend is right, Plan B stands

:49:19.:49:22.

for bankruptcy. We can see what happens when governments do not get

:49:23.:49:27.

a grip of their debt and deficit. That is what this Government does

:49:27.:49:32.

and the party opposite have learnt nothing. Does the Prime Minister

:49:32.:49:35.

agree with me that the maximum sentence for the offence of

:49:35.:49:40.

dangerous driving does not properly reflect the potential harm caused

:49:40.:49:45.

to victims? Sometimes these victims are left paralysed and brain damage.

:49:46.:49:49.

Will the Prime Minister's support me and my front bench in increasing

:49:49.:49:54.

the maximum sentence took seven years? I know that the Honourable

:49:54.:49:57.

Gentleman speaks with personal knowledge about this, not just

:49:57.:50:00.

because of his constituency case that he wrote to me about but

:50:00.:50:04.

because of his work as a barrister before coming to this place. I

:50:04.:50:14.
:50:14.:50:16.

brought to me, someone was really damaged permanently for life and

:50:16.:50:19.

the next one sentence is two years. We are looking at this issue and we

:50:19.:50:27.

hope to make progress. To even more us. What the Prime Minister agree

:50:27.:50:35.

that the event should be allowed from the opposition of �10 billion

:50:35.:50:41.

isn't just the fear not in the IMF and in the 1970s, the IMF bailed

:50:41.:50:51.

out their government? I agree with what my friend said and it was

:50:51.:50:55.

remarkable yesterday that the Labour Party put themselves in a

:50:55.:50:59.

position of opposing our involvement in the IMF. Britain is

:50:59.:51:01.

a serious global economy and we should take responsibility for

:51:02.:51:09.

serious global issues, including through the IMF. David Simpson.

:51:09.:51:13.

Does the Prime Minister agree that details of all the weapons and

:51:13.:51:16.

explosives be commissioned in Northern Ireland should be made

:51:16.:51:22.

public, as promised? And will he agree to have negotiations with the

:51:22.:51:25.

Irish government to move forward to the Americans to see that it

:51:25.:51:33.

happens? The Independent Commission did not provide us with an

:51:33.:51:36.

inventory, they were an independent body and this was a decision for

:51:36.:51:42.

them to make, difficult as that is. They stated that we would not want

:51:42.:51:46.

to inadvertently discourage further decommissioning with groups that

:51:46.:51:54.

are actively engaged. This is difficult and we're having to deal

:51:54.:51:58.

in Northern Ireland with difficult things in order to bring conflict

:51:58.:52:01.

to an end and keep conflict to an end and this is what the

:52:02.:52:09.

commissioner's report did. On the issue of delaying inquiries, the

:52:09.:52:13.

public have little confidence in the Metropolitan Police, were

:52:13.:52:17.

investigations concerning News International are concerned. Colour

:52:17.:52:22.

remind him of a question I asked in April, will he have a full judicial

:52:22.:52:25.

inquiry that looks particularly at the link between News International

:52:25.:52:30.

and the Metropolitan Police? Clearly this is a very important

:52:30.:52:34.

issue and my friend is disgusted with the Commissioner of the

:52:34.:52:39.

Metropolitan Police. -- has discussed it. Let me try to

:52:39.:52:42.

reassure the house and the on and a gentleman about this because even

:52:42.:52:47.

before you get to the point about independent and public inquiries,

:52:47.:52:50.

what the public needs to know is that the police will go about their

:52:50.:52:53.

job properly in terms of this investigation and they do need to

:52:53.:52:58.

know that this is an investigation completely separate from the

:52:58.:53:02.

previous investigation and as it stands today, it is one of the

:53:02.:53:06.

largest police investigations going on anywhere in the country. Teresa

:53:06.:53:11.

Pearce. Thank you. The victims of knife crime in London have

:53:11.:53:15.

increased by 8% over the last three months. On the streets of London

:53:15.:53:18.

have children carrying knives and other children afraid of the

:53:18.:53:23.

journey to and from school. Last Friday, on a busy shopping parade,

:53:23.:53:28.

a 16 year-old constituent of mine was stabbed to death. Two children

:53:28.:53:31.

have been arrested in connection with this and what with the Prime

:53:31.:53:36.

Minister do to ensure that the mayor of London gets a grip on this

:53:36.:53:41.

problem and that was one of the election promises? The case that

:53:41.:53:44.

she raises is a tragic one and there are still too many victims of

:53:44.:53:48.

knife crime, particularly among young people, in our cities. What

:53:48.:53:52.

we're doing is creating a new offence with a mandatory sentence

:53:52.:53:55.

to send a clear message to those who carry knives. The offence would

:53:55.:53:59.

apply to those with the knife who threaten and endanger others and a

:53:59.:54:03.

public place. It will send a clear message to those who possess nice,

:54:03.:54:09.

if you threaten anyone, you go to jail. What the Prime Minister agree

:54:09.:54:13.

that those who pay back early their student loans are doing the right

:54:13.:54:19.

thing and should be encouraged? If so, how is it consistent with the

:54:19.:54:22.

government policy which is apparently want to discourage

:54:22.:54:26.

people from paying back early and indeed penalising them for early

:54:26.:54:31.

repayment? I would urge my friend to look carefully at the details of

:54:31.:54:36.

what we propose. We want a progressive system were people who

:54:36.:54:39.

earn more pay back more and that is why we have the system were nobody

:54:39.:54:44.

pays anything until they earn �21,000 and you don't pay back in

:54:44.:54:49.

full until �35,000. We are proposing that people who pay back

:54:49.:54:53.

�3,000 a year, as they earn money, should not be discouraged because

:54:53.:55:01.

that is the right thing to do. opposition the Prime Minister was

:55:01.:55:08.

clear that... Last week, he said I fell back on the same explanation

:55:08.:55:11.

is that he refused to accept when they were given to him by the

:55:11.:55:19.

previous Prime Minister. What has changed? We have banned the Taliban,

:55:19.:55:25.

we have taken action, and as my friend, the Lord Chancellor, will

:55:25.:55:30.

history testify, it is endlessly frustrating that we are subject to

:55:30.:55:33.

so many legal requirements but I'm afraid we have to be a government

:55:33.:55:43.
:55:43.:55:47.

under the law. Order! Mr Robert Hall Farm... Given that the

:55:47.:55:51.

Olympics and the Diamond Jubilee are next to, is the Prime Minister

:55:51.:55:55.

aware that emigration Special Branch officers are concerned that

:55:55.:55:59.

the common area of travel channel allows illegal migrants, Islamists

:55:59.:56:03.

and terrorists, into the country without passports being checked.

:56:03.:56:08.

Will he take steps to close this loophole immediately? By friend

:56:08.:56:11.

makes an important point but I would say that passport free travel

:56:11.:56:14.

between the UK and Crown dependencies and the Republic of

:56:14.:56:18.

Ireland has been in place for many years and it offers economic and

:56:18.:56:22.

social benefits. I except that these routes can be open to abuse

:56:22.:56:26.

and we're determined to resolve this, the UK Border Agency is

:56:26.:56:29.

working closely with Ireland and others to make sure this happens

:56:29.:56:31.

what we want to try to do this without disadvantaging people who

:56:31.:56:41.
:56:41.:56:41.

can take advantage of this common travel area up to now.

:56:41.:56:44.

committee's secretary and the DWP secretary has said that British

:56:44.:56:49.

employers should employ British workers. Will the Prime Minister

:56:49.:56:59.

start with the DWP offshore or company in offering -- outsourcing

:56:59.:57:05.

jobs to Bangalore? I understand the case she makes... Order! I want to

:57:05.:57:11.

hear the answer! What we need to do is make sure that our welfare

:57:11.:57:16.

reforms are encouraging those people who sit on welfare and could

:57:16.:57:20.

work and make them go out to work. Under the party opposite, yes,

:57:20.:57:24.

economic growth but 5 million working-age people living on

:57:24.:57:31.

benefits. That isn't good enough and we will change that. What the

:57:31.:57:40.

Prime Minister agree that centres in rural areas provide a valuable

:57:40.:57:43.

service to their local communities and hundreds of my constituents

:57:43.:57:49.

send this message to Derbyshire NHS as they threaten the closure of the

:57:49.:57:54.

centre? I agree of my friend and we want to see maternity networks so

:57:54.:57:58.

that mothers can make a choice about where they can give birth.

:57:58.:58:02.

Whether that is in a community setting, midwife lead or in a

:58:02.:58:06.

district general hospital, where they have all the paraphernalia of

:58:06.:58:14.

consultants, and it should be a choice made by them. Is the Prime

:58:14.:58:18.

Minister aware that when yesterday Bombardier had to announce

:58:18.:58:22.

redundancies, including skilled engineers and signers, the company

:58:22.:58:27.

made public for the first time that they had offered to establish a new

:58:27.:58:31.

Academy in this country for the design and manufacture of cars for

:58:31.:58:35.

the next generation of high-speed trains in this country and across

:58:35.:58:40.

the world. More jobs and jobs with even higher skills. He won't have

:58:40.:58:43.

had time to familiarise himself with the details but will he

:58:43.:58:47.

undertake to look into this with care to give substance to the

:58:47.:58:49.

commitment to give in my constituency to British

:58:49.:58:54.

manufacturing? I will look very carefully at what the Honourable

:58:54.:59:00.

Lady has said about this but let me just say this... I Want to See More

:59:00.:59:04.

British jobs in manufacturing and as we are seeing across the country

:59:04.:59:09.

but in case of Bombardier, the procurement process was designed

:59:10.:59:16.

and emaciated by the Government of which she was apart. We are bound

:59:16.:59:19.

by the criteria they set out and therefore we must continue with the

:59:19.:59:23.

decision that has been made according to that. Separately, we

:59:23.:59:27.

are setting out to ask the question, what more can we do within the

:59:27.:59:31.

current rules to make sure that the boost manufacturing in the country?

:59:31.:59:38.

And not have situations like this in the future. 12 days ago a young

:59:38.:59:43.

constituent of mine was the victim of a vicious knife attack. This

:59:43.:59:48.

last weekend, another 16 year-old man was also the victim of a knife

:59:48.:59:53.

attack. Will my Right Honourable friend join with me in condemning

:59:53.:59:57.

this upsurge in gang related violence and confirm that those

:59:57.:00:04.

that carry knives will be facing a custodial sentence if apprehended?

:00:04.:00:10.

As I have said, it is important to send a clear message about this and

:00:10.:00:12.

we're doing that with the new offence that carries a mandatory

:00:12.:00:16.

sentence and that is a single to anyone who contemplate carrying a

:00:16.:00:22.

knife. We should be frank. Surely looking at this from a criminal

:00:22.:00:26.

justice situation isn't the answer. We have to ask ourselves why so

:00:26.:00:29.

many young people joined gangs and why aren't families and communities

:00:29.:00:33.

doing more to keep them close and prevent the carrying of knives and

:00:33.:00:42.

that is something that runs across government. It isn't the case of

:00:42.:00:47.

the Government follows the normal process in relation to the takeover

:00:47.:00:51.

of BSkyB. Why does he believe the assurances that News Corporation

:00:52.:00:55.

executives give are any more credible than the ones they give

:00:55.:01:01.

over phone hacking? We have followed the correct processes and

:01:01.:01:05.

indeed, if you do not know the correct process, you will be

:01:05.:01:07.

judicially reviewed and all the decisions you would like to make

:01:07.:01:17.
:01:17.:01:20.

for a political point of view it will be struck down in the courts.

:01:20.:01:25.

Order! If the house can overcome its collective mirth, we will hear

:01:26.:01:35.

Mr Ian Miss Wales. I visited a school in my constituency which is

:01:35.:01:39.

the 17th most deprived primary- school in the country. Will the

:01:39.:01:42.

Prime Minister join me in congratulating the school and the

:01:42.:01:46.

community in their work to convert an area of demolished houses into a

:01:46.:01:50.

playing field and will he ensure the Government improves its pupil

:01:50.:01:59.

premium policy to support this excellent work? I believe the

:01:59.:02:06.

people premium which will pump billions into the most deprived

:02:06.:02:08.

children in deprived parts of the country will make a huge difference

:02:08.:02:18.
:02:18.:02:30.

That was the penultimate Prime Minister's Questions. That is the

:02:30.:02:40.
:02:40.:02:43.

second last! Yes! Phone hacking dominated the exchanges. We have

:02:43.:02:46.

agreement that there should be an inquiry but exactly when and with

:02:46.:02:52.

the terms of reference, obviously there are no concrete piece of news

:02:52.:02:56.

but there is disagreement on whether Mr Murdoch's attempt to buy

:02:56.:03:00.

60% of BSkyB that he does not own should be referred to the

:03:00.:03:08.

Competition Commission for at least delayed. Why that was going on in

:03:08.:03:18.
:03:18.:03:19.

Parliament, the outside world is We learned in the last half hour

:03:20.:03:24.

that Halifax, Virgin Holidays, Lloyds Bank and Vauxhall Motors had

:03:24.:03:31.

also withdrawn. There is a sense of an avalanche. There is talk of

:03:31.:03:35.

Renault, cabarets, at NatWest, Coca-Cola, Body Shop pulls up

:03:35.:03:44.

various others may not be advertising. That think can hurt.

:03:44.:03:54.
:03:54.:03:56.

We remember what happened to The Sun paper macro. Boycotts can hit

:03:56.:04:03.

you. Rupert Murdoch likes big, thick bottom lines. One of the new

:04:03.:04:08.

things we have been doing is monitoring the tweets that come in.

:04:08.:04:12.

In the Westminster village, those people who make their business

:04:13.:04:16.

punting on these issues, they thought that Ed Miliband scored a

:04:16.:04:23.

clear win. Wiped the floor with David Cameron. These up all people

:04:23.:04:30.

who work in the business. What about you? This one from Peter in

:04:30.:04:35.

Oxfordshire. David Cameron failed to address the public perception of

:04:35.:04:39.

the close link between News International and the Conservative

:04:39.:04:45.

Party. It seems Ed Miliband judges people before they are found guilty,

:04:45.:04:51.

says Maureen Ryan. Chris from Sheffield says what a disgusting

:04:51.:04:57.

attitude by members of the opposition towards the Prime

:04:57.:05:01.

Minister. He was being heckled constantly by Labour backbenchers.

:05:01.:05:06.

Another one, what a waste! What we care about is trying to make a

:05:06.:05:12.

static way to go even further week after week. Alastair Campbell,

:05:12.:05:15.

adviser to David Cameron and the Prime Minister, and they say that

:05:15.:05:20.

because he wrote a new block. I have heard to say before that Mr

:05:20.:05:24.

Cameron would stand up and then as he would agree to the principle of

:05:24.:05:30.

a broad-based inquiry and that is what he did. I am glad he did it.

:05:30.:05:34.

Ed Miliband Havel did extremely well. David Cameron did the right

:05:34.:05:43.

thing. -- Ed Miliband handled it extremely well. I think now of this

:05:43.:05:48.

inquiry has to be wide ranging. It cannot just be about the News of

:05:48.:05:52.

the World. It is about links with police and private investigators.

:05:52.:05:58.

It has to lead to a settlement between politics and the media. A

:05:58.:06:03.

lot of politicians will start to think that maybe Selfridge it --

:06:03.:06:09.

self regulation is best. The Prime Minister a's line is that we have

:06:09.:06:16.

to follow to process. The Culture Secretary does not meet without

:06:16.:06:21.

half a dozen lawyers in the same room so he is being seen to act to

:06:21.:06:24.

the letter of the law. Public opinion and the public mood is

:06:24.:06:32.

another thing. Can apposition be sustained? I thought the first part

:06:33.:06:37.

was Parliament at its best was that it was the right tone was a bit

:06:37.:06:47.
:06:47.:06:51.

came a par with the BSkyB quote. -- -- beat it where it came apart was

:06:51.:07:00.

with the BSkyB quote. What is very likely to happen is that somebody

:07:00.:07:06.

will resurrect all bring up the fit and proper test. There is a

:07:06.:07:10.

requirement, said Labour media takeovers, that the person taking

:07:10.:07:18.

over has to meet a fit and proper test. The default option is Ofcom.

:07:18.:07:23.

That is the regulatory body for the media. It looks rather weak. I

:07:23.:07:28.

think Mr Cameron will go back to No. 10 and say, find me a way through

:07:28.:07:34.

all of this. Why can it not be referred to the Competition

:07:34.:07:43.

Commission? New information, I have changed my mind. It is more fit and

:07:43.:07:49.

proper. This whole picture has changed completely. We do not know,

:07:49.:07:54.

we will not know for months, quite how far up the Murdoch organisation

:07:54.:08:00.

the blame for these problems goes. That is the key issue. If it goes

:08:00.:08:07.

right to senior level... You do not do �750,000 settlements with Gordon

:08:07.:08:16.

Taylor without it going very high up. It will open the doors to much

:08:16.:08:19.

more. If you came back of a plane last night and were presented with

:08:19.:08:26.

a problem like this, you can announce two inquiries - one on the

:08:26.:08:31.

police and one on the issue of wider media regulation. He had no

:08:31.:08:36.

alternative about that. So many people will say, if we touch the

:08:36.:08:42.

BSkyB issue, we have to get it right. We cannot get it wrong. The

:08:42.:08:49.

moment something goes wrong with it, the consequences could be huge.

:08:49.:08:55.

supplied to Ben Bradshaw was rather tetchy. We will have to go and find

:08:55.:09:00.

out what is the wiggle room the Government have. The question by

:09:00.:09:05.

Ben Bradshaw was quite interesting. He knows a bit about the background

:09:05.:09:13.

to this. I think David is right. I think David Cameron looked very

:09:13.:09:18.

uncomfortable. The public, whether he likes it or not, they are

:09:18.:09:24.

linking the two issues. It is big enough to have a public inquiry

:09:24.:09:29.

into the media but to have a public inquiry into the police and the

:09:29.:09:33.

media would be unprecedented and potentially devastating for a lot

:09:33.:09:37.

of people. Labour members of the Metropolitan Police have authority

:09:37.:09:46.

have called upon Paul Stephenson to refer the bourse voluntary -- be

:09:46.:09:51.

forced voluntary to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

:09:51.:09:57.

are dragging people out of bed at midnight and all the rest of it.

:09:57.:10:07.
:10:07.:10:09.

Compare the lack of zeal on this! You, I understand, are currently

:10:09.:10:13.

Labour's largest individual donor. Why it is Ed Miliband not

:10:13.:10:19.

attracting more financial support? We are the third most interesting

:10:19.:10:25.

party at the moment. In Scotland we are the 4th most interesting party

:10:25.:10:29.

or they may be the Lib Dems do not count. It you have got to be head

:10:29.:10:34.

of the Tories and the Lib Dems. We're the third most interesting

:10:34.:10:38.

party. The Tories are the Government. Business has moved back

:10:38.:10:43.

a fair amount and Ed is finding it hard to attract that sort of

:10:43.:10:49.

support. That is inevitable at this stage of the parliament. David will

:10:49.:10:53.

know this from when he was trying to raise money through his campaign,

:10:53.:10:58.

money does tend to go a bit towards where they think the winners Mike

:10:58.:11:05.

bees. It is about -- might be. It will have done him and the PLP a

:11:05.:11:14.

lot of beard. I was surprised my donation was the largest last month.

:11:14.:11:20.

Next month it will be the guy who paid for the dedication of my book

:11:20.:11:30.
:11:30.:11:31.

was up is that this book here? said, during the leadership

:11:31.:11:35.

campaign, I think Ed Miliband is a really nice guy. The need to

:11:35.:11:39.

differentiate between making the party feel ABOUT losing a making

:11:39.:11:45.

the party face up to what it needs to get into shape again. He is yet

:11:45.:11:51.

to do that, hasn't he? If he has started the process. He has the

:11:51.:11:57.

space now. I think a lot of us, and a lot of our people, have found it

:11:57.:12:02.

hard to adapt to the fact the are no longer in government. It cannot

:12:02.:12:09.

have opened debates. If somebody says something... We are having

:12:09.:12:14.

them, why can't you? I think the Labour Party can have a much more

:12:14.:12:20.

lively and much more robust debate about past, present and future. Ed

:12:21.:12:26.

is getting a very bad press most of the time. He should get a

:12:26.:12:32.

reasonable press after today. Ultimately, politics is about

:12:32.:12:37.

making big strategic choices. I do not think we up their lead in terms

:12:37.:12:43.

of being clear about the strategy we want to pursue. -- we are bare.

:12:43.:12:49.

Up he said he would be the Iain Duncan-Smith of the Labour Party.

:12:49.:12:56.

can remember, that is ridiculous, it cannot be as bad as that. In the

:12:56.:13:01.

latest poll in the Independent on Sunday, it says that Ed Miliband is

:13:01.:13:06.

more unpopular than Iain Duncan- Smith in the same stage of his

:13:06.:13:11.

leadership. The mood around him has been very negative. He needs to

:13:11.:13:16.

keep going. There has to be a big debate. There is no problem with

:13:16.:13:21.

having an open debate and differences of opinion about why we

:13:21.:13:27.

lost and the economic policies pursued, we should have that debate.

:13:27.:13:33.

Ed does have the manner. He has a nice touch with people. He is

:13:33.:13:38.

developing in Parliament. The important thing is about policy. We

:13:38.:13:41.

can afford to have a much more robust debate the we're having at

:13:42.:13:51.
:13:52.:13:52.

the moment. Some in your party will not one that debate. There is no

:13:52.:13:57.

agreement over the past. Some people in the party, Ed Balls among

:13:57.:14:02.

others, think a debate that looks to the past is distracting. The

:14:02.:14:08.

next election should be fought on future issues. You should not enter

:14:08.:14:18.
:14:18.:14:19.

an argument about who did what rank in the last Parliament, at the last

:14:19.:14:22.

government. That is why we should all recognise that nobody has

:14:22.:14:28.

anything to fear. I think it would do the Labour Party a lot of good.

:14:29.:14:32.

Every time I read about, if somebody says something slightly

:14:32.:14:38.

different to what Ed has said, there is a plot going on. There is

:14:38.:14:43.

no plot that I know off. It is a desire to learn lessons about why

:14:43.:14:48.

we lost and what we did when we were winning elections. That is

:14:48.:14:54.

really important. Just a comment on the poll thing. Whoever won the

:14:54.:14:59.

leadership election, with the in a difficult position. That is the

:14:59.:15:04.

biggest story. All of them would be in trouble. Unless you have this

:15:04.:15:09.

debate, that is all we will talk about. The Tory high command view

:15:09.:15:13.

at the moment where they have not got a lot to cheer about because

:15:13.:15:18.

they're in the worst part of the political and economic cycle... Of

:15:18.:15:24.

the second worst part. These draw they grasp is that we're up against

:15:24.:15:31.

Ed Miliband, they say. Isn't that dangerously complacent? It is good

:15:31.:15:36.

for rattling the other side. When Iain Duncan Smith was leader we

:15:36.:15:40.

used to have a weekly meeting, sitting down. We used to work out

:15:40.:15:46.

what his drinks were, what his weaknesses were. -- his strengths.

:15:46.:15:56.
:15:56.:16:09.

You should never underestimate your Thank you for being with us. And

:16:09.:16:13.

things aren't moving with the News of the World story and we learnt

:16:13.:16:19.

that the court has also suspended its dealings with News of the World

:16:19.:16:22.

and an investigation is taking place. It's often thought the

:16:22.:16:25.

French dress better than us, cook better food than us and produce

:16:25.:16:30.

better wine. And, of course, they strike better than us. According to

:16:30.:16:33.

the French entrepreneur PY Gerbeau, they take to the streets on an

:16:33.:16:38.

almost daily basis. Here's his soapbox on why we should not be

:16:38.:16:48.
:16:48.:16:57.

trying to emulate our friends across the Channel. I left my

:16:57.:17:02.

beloved France 11 years ago to work and live in the UK, mainly to avoid

:17:02.:17:06.

the end this French striking culture. There is a strike almost

:17:06.:17:11.

every day which not only paralyses the country but also stops any

:17:11.:17:16.

entrepreneurs of being able to run any business. The French population

:17:16.:17:21.

is constantly taken hostage by trade unions that basically to not

:17:21.:17:28.

represent anybody in France. This is a recipe for disaster. The UK

:17:28.:17:33.

has always been synonymous with the fantastic business model were an

:17:33.:17:36.

entrepreneur can succeed and were the trade unions are no safeguard

:17:36.:17:41.

but can be supportive, unlike in France, where they are entirely

:17:41.:17:47.

destructive. There is a big pot. With Brussels and its constant

:17:47.:17:52.

threat of bringing more red tape to the showers and the slow, dangerous

:17:52.:17:55.

drift towards the field French economic system, we have a massive

:17:55.:18:00.

reason to be worried. Last week saw much protest which could only be

:18:00.:18:04.

the tip of the iceberg with cuts coming in and as a businessman I

:18:04.:18:09.

question what impact it will have on UK plc because all of us should

:18:09.:18:13.

focus on three things - getting ourselves out of recession, making

:18:13.:18:16.

sure we create and protect jobs and make sure the country gets back on

:18:17.:18:26.

its front foot. The UK population is desperate for good news, to be

:18:26.:18:31.

able to face the tough economy. But the reality of our day-to-day life

:18:31.:18:35.

is transport chaos, massive strikes, the Olympics, which should have

:18:36.:18:40.

been the greatest news but it's a project four times over budget and

:18:40.:18:44.

the population isn't able to buy tickets. That isn't a recipe to

:18:44.:18:54.
:18:54.:18:56.

motivate and inspire people. We're joined now by PY Gerbeau. We get

:18:56.:19:03.

people to crunch numbers, you do not deserve your reputation. You

:19:03.:19:07.

are actually the European average. We do it very noisily and disturb

:19:07.:19:14.

everybody. They bring sheep and tractors and stop everything.

:19:14.:19:18.

hardly take to the streets. And with so many cuts and so much pain,

:19:18.:19:22.

is it not right and proper in a democracy that people can come out?

:19:22.:19:28.

A exactly, I am not against trade unions. In France they're totally

:19:28.:19:31.

disruptive and I am totally for the liberty of protesting. My problem

:19:31.:19:38.

is when they take people hostage, people cannot go to work.

:19:38.:19:42.

convenient strike is pointless in many people's eyes? Nobody will

:19:42.:19:50.

notice! Were we to like us to go on strike?! We can go on strike we

:19:51.:19:54.

should not have the opportunity to disturb people's lives and take

:19:54.:19:58.

them hostage. That is what my problem is and that is what the

:19:58.:20:03.

entrepreneurial spirit has disappeared and why my colleagues

:20:03.:20:07.

are economic refugees. Alastair Campbell, you were talking the Big

:20:07.:20:13.

Top, is that where we should be going? Convenient strikes? I have

:20:13.:20:17.

been at a few strikes in France and their like social occasions, people

:20:17.:20:22.

bring their children and food and wine and they sit around. They do

:20:22.:20:27.

have a very different attitude. Partly it is about the media, our

:20:27.:20:29.

media is very conditioned to covering strikes from a very

:20:29.:20:34.

negative perspective. Striking is always bad. In France, a lot of

:20:34.:20:39.

people think they are part of the industrial culture. There was more

:20:39.:20:49.

public support. I agree with Alastair. Let David Davies come in

:20:49.:20:54.

on this... I think they chewed strikers to cure advice, until

:20:54.:21:02.

three in the morning. Who noticed? On the issue of striking, it is an

:21:03.:21:07.

important point, is it right, morally, for the public sector to

:21:07.:21:12.

be striking when actually in many areas they are better off than in

:21:12.:21:17.

the private sector? The private sector perhaps complaint that it

:21:17.:21:21.

did it do? To be serious, they should be tougher rules for public

:21:21.:21:26.

sector strikes. If you are in the private sector and go on strike,

:21:26.:21:30.

there is a competitor who will look after your customers and the public

:21:30.:21:33.

sector there is a monopoly, you cannot get to work, you cannot do a

:21:33.:21:40.

job. Whatever that might be. In those circumstances, we have had

:21:40.:21:43.

debate about requiring the majority of the workforce and not just the

:21:43.:21:50.

electorate. Vince Cable is playing footsie with this notion. Should we

:21:50.:21:57.

look at the terms and conditions of the strikes? He is playing footsie,

:21:57.:22:03.

and the balance is right. Thatcher pushed this in a very certain

:22:03.:22:06.

direction and it came back a little bit but this whole idea that the

:22:06.:22:10.

public sector leader these gilded lives with their so-called gold-

:22:10.:22:14.

plated pensions, a teacher who works for several decades doing a

:22:14.:22:18.

bloody good job, they don't end up on these massive pensions that

:22:18.:22:25.

people talk about. They will have a half a million pound pension pot!

:22:25.:22:29.

They will have a decent pension that will retire them over their

:22:29.:22:34.

old age. Better than most people, ordinary workers, will know. That

:22:34.:22:38.

is because of what has happened to the pensions industry but I still

:22:38.:22:42.

think that playing this as a game between the private sector being

:22:42.:22:47.

terribly poor and the public sector... We are running at a time,

:22:47.:22:51.

very quickly, looking at this, is there room for negotiation or are

:22:51.:22:54.

strikes inevitable over the next few months? There should be room

:22:54.:22:58.

for negotiation and advanced in his public support but this is changing.

:22:58.:23:02.

There is a lobby group of traditional workers who are fed up

:23:02.:23:08.

with being taking -- taken hostage. There is a place for protesting.

:23:09.:23:11.

France they always say they want change but when it comes to it,

:23:11.:23:17.

they don't. We are special that we! Thank you very much for being with

:23:17.:23:22.

us. If you ask politicos what the most memorable debates in

:23:22.:23:24.

Parliament have been recently, they'd probably say the ones about

:23:24.:23:27.

wild animals in circuses and voting rights for prisoners. They might

:23:27.:23:30.

never have happened if it hadn't been for the relatively new

:23:30.:23:36.

Backbench Business Committee. You might never have heard of it but

:23:36.:23:38.

it's becoming an increasingly powerful way for backbenchers to

:23:38.:23:45.

get stuff off their chests. Yesterday Adam had a bit of a nose

:23:45.:23:55.
:23:55.:24:01.

around. It is Tuesday at 1pm and MPs are flocking to the regular

:24:01.:24:05.

meeting of the backbench business committee. They will compete in a

:24:05.:24:10.

Dragon's Den style format for a slot to have a debate on the topic

:24:10.:24:14.

of their choice. If they do secure that, it can lead to fireworks...

:24:15.:24:21.

Can be to prisoners should not have the vote. Rapists, drug dealers,

:24:21.:24:28.

frankly it does not matter what the crime is. Given its seriousness.

:24:28.:24:33.

Many of these animals have been so domesticated over so many years, to

:24:33.:24:41.

wrench them out of the life there used to what be more cruel...

:24:41.:24:45.

community was created as part of a package of reforms to plump up the

:24:45.:24:49.

role of backbench MPs. It has just celebrated its first birthday.

:24:49.:24:52.

are to meet congratulate the backbench committee over the last

:24:52.:24:57.

year. It has made a difference in Parliament and I think it is quite

:24:57.:25:01.

right that actually a House of Commons can choose to debate the

:25:01.:25:04.

subject of its choosing on a motion of its choosing at a time of his

:25:04.:25:08.

choosing. That is right and it has discussed a range of issues from

:25:08.:25:14.

the very mundane to the quite obscure. It has been a year of

:25:14.:25:17.

bread and circuses! The backbench business committee is responsible

:25:17.:25:21.

for scheduling debates on 35 days of the year and they would love

:25:22.:25:25.

more. But that would require the Government to seriously relax its

:25:25.:25:31.

grip on the Commons timetable. We can speak now to the chair of the

:25:31.:25:36.

Backbench Business Committee, the Labour MP Natascha Engel. Welcome

:25:36.:25:40.

to the Daily Politics. Are you the most popular woman in Parliament?!

:25:40.:25:45.

I don't think so. It depends on who you talk to. Not with the

:25:45.:25:52.

Government. Backbench MPs are always eager to get their

:25:52.:25:57.

particular hobby-horse aired and they must come to you? Yes, and I

:25:57.:25:59.

think that has been the one innovation that we have introduced

:25:59.:26:04.

that has been successful. We are guided by what backbenchers bring

:26:04.:26:09.

to us rather than a community of it people just making up the bits as

:26:09.:26:15.

we go along. What criteria do you use? Topicality is very important.

:26:15.:26:20.

But we do look at making sure that we do not choose debates that are

:26:20.:26:22.

merely in opposition to the Government, we want to hold the

:26:22.:26:25.

Government to account and there is a subtle difference but it is

:26:25.:26:29.

important. We want cross-party support for debates, we don't just

:26:29.:26:36.

want... We have had this on everything. It isn't an extra

:26:36.:26:40.

vehicle for the opposition? It is for things that Parliament wants to

:26:40.:26:44.

discuss? Absolutely right. Which the executive might not want to

:26:44.:26:48.

discuss? If we look at the phone hacking scandal, for example, if

:26:49.:26:52.

the speaker had not wanted any urgent debate today, that is the

:26:52.:26:55.

sort of thing that the Government may not bring to the floor of the

:26:55.:26:59.

house and we now have a way of bringing a foreword by coming to

:26:59.:27:04.

the backbench committee. You have a Dragon's Den star performers. You

:27:04.:27:08.

have appeared in front of this? What did you have to do? Did you

:27:08.:27:12.

bring any invention? I had to bring Jack Straw! That is a little

:27:12.:27:18.

invention! And I made my case. Why does this matter? It was prisoners

:27:18.:27:23.

votes. Why did this matter? The House disagreed with the government

:27:23.:27:27.

line and so we wanted to make that point. And I think a change the

:27:28.:27:31.

Government's position. We got that you get, we had a huge debate with

:27:31.:27:35.

the huge turnout and it was a great victory on one side and the

:27:35.:27:40.

government had to change its position. Do the party whips try to

:27:40.:27:48.

influence you? Singing, I don't think that is a good idea. They are

:27:48.:27:53.

the wrong party whips! They don't try to influence me and they don't

:27:53.:27:58.

talk to me that often. Something the Labour whips may not like

:27:58.:28:03.

discussed? It has not worked out like that. What happens is that it

:28:03.:28:07.

really is the backbenchers. Sometimes there is a sense that

:28:07.:28:09.

backbenchers have been influenced a little bit by the party whips but

:28:09.:28:15.

we can see through that quickly. So, no, it isn't like that. What is the

:28:15.:28:20.

next did it? We have had all our time taken away and that is a

:28:20.:28:23.

problem, it is time allocated by government. Back to work in the

:28:23.:28:27.

autumn? Absolutely. Thank you for coming in and we will keep an eye

:28:27.:28:34.

on that. And the answer to our Guess the Year competition was 1985.

:28:34.:28:42.

Guess what? I think it was! We will check... We will not pick any

:28:42.:28:46.

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