11/08/2011 Daily Politics


11/08/2011

Andrew Neil presents live coverage of David Cameron's House of Commons statement and debate on the riots.


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Morning folks. Welcome to this special edition of the Daily

:00:27.:00:31.

Politics. In the aftermath of the riots of the past week MPs have

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returned to Westminster for an emergency session of parliament to

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discuss the violence, looting, widespread lawlessness that has

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swept across most of England's major cities.

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After four nights of disorder last night was much calmer, thanks to

:00:45.:00:49.

large police numbers and heavy rain, while courts sat through the night

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to deal with the hundreds of those arrested.

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In half an hour the Prime Minister will outline more details of what

:00:57.:01:00.

he's called the fightback against the riots when he addresses the

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Commons. We will have his statement live here at 11.30am. And, as

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markets tumble further over questions now about France's

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economy, Chancellor George Osborne will be making a statement on the

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global financial turbulence. So, all that to come before 1.00

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this afternoon on this Daily Politics special. With me for the

:01:26.:01:30.

duration Conservative Party chairman Baroness Warsi and former

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Labour Home Secretary Charles Clarke. Welcome to you both.

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Now, after four nights when the streets of England's cities became

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the scene of riots and looting, sometimes unchecked by the police,

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last night was that bit quieter. But if the immediate threat of

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continuing riots appears to have died down the questions about

:01:53.:01:56.

police tactics, police response, police numbers, and the political

:01:56.:02:00.

argument over just why England has been riven by riot with areas given

:02:00.:02:06.

over to anarchy for hour upon hour, well they're only just starting.

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Speaking this morning Labour's shadow Home Secretary, Yvette

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Cooper, told the BBC that the Government must reverse its

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decision to cut police budgets. We've always said that we think the

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scale and pace of the cuts to the police budget is too great. It's

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unsustainable and is unfair on communities because it is taking

:02:24.:02:28.

risks with law and order. I think the events of the last few days

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have made it abundantly clear that if you have more officers on the

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streets, if you have more police out and about it makes a real

:02:36.:02:41.

difference. Speaking for the Government the Liberal Democrat

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leader and deputy prime minister Nick Clegg rejected the idea that

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the rioting was linked to cuts in police numbers. I think it's simply

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ridiculous to say that people have been smashing windows, looting

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shops, thiefing, stealing, because of Government policies or indeed

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about cuts to some police numbers which haven't happened and all of

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which we judge as a Government are entirely managable and will allow

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the police in the future, just as they have today, to deploy large

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numbers into areas where that is needed.

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That's a taste of what we may hear more of in the Commons from the

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coalition and the Labour opposition in just under half an hour. Charles

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Clarke, are these riots, will they result in a watershed in British

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politics? I think they'll be very substantial, at a whole set of

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levels. Firsly, it tells you that there are consequences to what

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happens and that means on economic policy, on policing policy and so

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on, there are consequences. So, I would be very surprised if all the

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Government - doesn't want to stop and think again about the various

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policies they're pursuing. Secondly, I think the Prime Minister's

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metaphor of sickness, which is an interesting one to use in some ways

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a poor one to use, in my opinion, does raise the question what is the

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sickness, who is sick, what's the diagnosis, what are the steps that

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have to be taken in a variety of different ways, in particular areas

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and so on? In that sense it's a debate worth having. There's a lot

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to be said about it. Do you have this debate during the 13 years you

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were in power? Absolutely if you... What went wrong? If you take the

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sickness metaphor, we went through a set of programmes to recreate and

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strengthen communities in inner cities. For example, the Sure Start

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programmes, neighbourhood policing, anti-social behaviour, a range of

:04:37.:04:40.

different things which were done to address this. Doesn't seem to have

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worked, does it? The biggest failure, I think, was not have a

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Coe here -- coherent enough approach to children, a group

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alienated and that's a failure we had. Generally speaking we did

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commit to solving problemss. Will this be a watershed for the

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coalition, will it have to rethink its approach in a number of areas.

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It will have to become more front- footed about some areas we have

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been talking about. I agree with Charles, that this is a really

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important debate to have. What is the sickness, where does it come

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from, what are the underlining causes and what can you do to deal

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with it? What I would define as a sickness is this culture, this

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feeling of a lack of personal responsibility. People feeling that,

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if I can I will. If you hear about some of the people going through

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the courts these are not deprived disadvantaged or even young people

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some of them, we heard about some people now in their 30s with jobs

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who took advantage and it's this culture of I can take advantage of

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this, I don't have to suffer consequences of my actions and

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there is that underlining deep- seated cultural... Why does it take

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a riot to make the political system face this? We have seen in this

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country an underclass festering for 40 years and getting more and more

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entrenched and yet on the left and the right you have effectively

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looked the other way. When we have spoken and I have spoken about the

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underclass in the past, I mean I have spoken about, for example, my

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own working class roots and... That's very different. That's

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different to what we see now as an underclass and we see it across all

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communities and I have spoken about it in relation to specific

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communities. When I have spoken about this or indeed when David

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Cameron has spoken about this when he spoke about broken Britain,

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there were a lot on the left and even the kind of intelligence on

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all sides who were a bit sniffy about saying why are we talking

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about this and maybe in some ways that important debate that David

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was having and the the khrfs were - - Conservatives were having. Seems

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to have dropped it recently. Despite much op significant from --

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op session from people -- opposition not to talk about what

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it means to have a strong society, to have strong parenting we managed

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to continually talk about it and this highlights why it's important.

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OK. Charles Clarke, you doubled public spending in the Labour

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Government, you had massive amounts of money going into these areas,

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yet it did not eradicate the core problem of a largely unemployed

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underclass. It didn't eradicate it. It made massive impact on it and I

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don't agree with your picture of 40 years of nothing happening in these

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areas. We had an enormous range of programmes which were targeted

:07:28.:07:31.

specifically at the inner city. For example, the parenting example. We

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had massive support for parenting precisely to try and address some

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of these particular problems. I will concede, of course, that we

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did not solve the problems, that's definitely the case. But it's

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certainly not the case it was broken Britain or this analysis

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being described. Britain looks pretty broken to people abroad

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today. You have a group of thousands of people who have been

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doing this terrible action, creating fear and if you look at

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the numbers from the Met, from the West Midlands, that's what it is,

:07:56.:07:59.

thousands, not tens of thousands of people. All right. Thank you for

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your initial impressions, we will go into more detail in a minute.

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But let me remind you of how events have unfolded on England's city

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streets over the past few days. Here is Adam Fleming.

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Trouble first flared on Saturday night in the north London borough

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of Tottenham. Police cars were attacked then set on fire, local

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businesses damaged, homes destroyed. I was trying to get out of the

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building, we were in such a panic and then we got outside and then I

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saw the building. Flames going up the building. It started as a

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peaceful sreupblgily by the -- vigil by friends and family of this

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man, Mark Duggan who was shot a few days before. Then came the looting

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at a nearby retail park, where clothes and electronics were stolen.

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As the community counted the cost of a night of violence, messages

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were circulating across the city on BlackBerry mobile phones calling

:08:59.:09:03.

for more. That came on the following night. On Monday youths

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fought battles with riot police in Hackney, south of the river in

:09:06.:09:10.

Croydon a furniture warehouse that survived the two world wars was

:09:10.:09:16.

burned to the ground. The affluent suburb of Ealing looked more like a

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war zone and shops in Clapham Junction became targets for more

:09:21.:09:27.

looting. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, flew back early from his

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holidays, so too did the Prime Minister who called in

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reinforcements for the under pressure met police. The Police

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commissioner has said compared with the 6,000 police on the streets

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last night in London, there will be some 16,000 officers tonight. All

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leave within the Metropolitan Police has been cancelled. There

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will be aid coming from police forces up and down the country.

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That led to a night of relative calm in London, a city that felt

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like it was in lockdown. But trouble flared in other places,

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including Birmingham, elsewhere in the Midlands, Manchester, Salford,

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Gloucester. An ever widening spiral of disorder that's led to hundreds

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arrested, that's left politicians struggling to keep up and which has

:10:13.:10:17.

stretched the police almost to the limit.

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Adam Fleming with an overview of events of the past week. We can now

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join him in parliament as MPs gather for this emergency statement

:10:26.:10:30.

by the Prime Minister. It will happen at 11.30am.

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Morning, Andrew. MPs are coming back from their holidays for this

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emergency recall of parliament to listen to David Cameron's statement,

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then there's going to be a debate lasting to about 7.00pm. I am

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delighted to say I am joined by Priti Patel, the Conservative MP,

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and Chuka Umunna, the Labour MP for Streatham in London, there was

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actually trouble in your constituency at the weekend. Now,

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how do you make sure this isn't a talking shop with people standing

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up to condemn the violence and nothing gets done? Well, I think

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the condemnation will come, that's inevitable, there's no doubt about

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that. I think the questions will also come in terms of policing, in

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terms of also the sanctions against these people that have committed

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these crimes. Actually I think, certainly from my constituents and

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I am sure others written to, that's what the public want to hear, that

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action will be taken and importantly they want to know that

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the state has regained control as well, particularly of our streets.

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What sort of sanctions are you talking about? I think it's

:11:29.:11:33.

punishments for those that are convicted of violence and

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criminality. I have spoken this morning about this issue already. I

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do think we have to look at taking away some of those -- where they

:11:43.:11:47.

have been convicted of criminal acts. What does that mean for

:11:47.:11:51.

sentencing reforms planned by Ken Clarke the just Secretary? That's

:11:51.:11:54.

an open question. That's a piece of legislation going to go through the

:11:54.:11:58.

Commons in the autumn. I think we got to look at the eninforcement of

:11:58.:12:02.

punishment and this is also about welfare reform as well, another

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piece of legislation, looking at housing benefits, for example and

:12:05.:12:09.

some of the welfare benefits that people are currently getting. We

:12:09.:12:14.

have to relook at that, where they have committed acts of violence and

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criminality. There was disturbance in your constituency, do you have a

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theory about the root causes behind all of this? The first thing I

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would say I don't think we should engage in knee-jerk reaction to

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what's happened, I say that as an constituency MP who has had an

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constituency affected by this, it's not just a question of the law,

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it's a question of the application and enforcement of it. Of course,

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that brings in lots of issues, for example, police numbers. I mean,

:12:41.:12:45.

there was points in my constituency at the time over the weekend where

:12:45.:12:50.

we were just overwhelmed and so resourcing is an issue there. But I

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hope today that we are not going to have a competition to see who can

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express the most outrage and come up with perhaps the most punitive

:12:58.:13:03.

sanctions, hang them and flog them tone of debate, I hope we don't go

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down that avenue. Secondly, I hope people like myself and my

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constituents, we are entitled to have a discussion about the deep

:13:11.:13:14.

profound causes of what has happened without accusations that

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we are somehow appeasing or excusing what went on, because I

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tell you what, we are the ones who suffered from it. So if anyone can

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see there is absolutely no justification for what has been

:13:23.:13:27.

going on, it's people in my constituency and members of

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parliament like myself who represent those that have been

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affected. Do you agree with your Labour colleagues like khreufbg and

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Harare har Ken Livingstone and Harriet Harman? I am not sure I

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necessarily would put it that way myself. Partly because some of

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those things have still to come through. But there clearly is

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something that has gone profoundly wrong here. Even although I have

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said time and again this was opportunistic behaviour, completely

:13:55.:13:59.

inexcusable, we have to look at why is it that people behaving in this

:13:59.:14:04.

way, why are they doing these things? Unless we look for an

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explanation, unless we look to have a deeper understanding of what has

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gone on, instead of engaging in a kind of armchair commentary based

:14:13.:14:16.

on anecdotal-style debate we are not going to prevent it happening

:14:16.:14:19.

again. I do not want the people I represent ever having to feel that

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they can't go and walk on their streets at night ever again. Thank

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you very much. An idea there I think of some of the things that we

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will hear in the debate when they get to talk after the Prime

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Minister's statement. Thank you. Indeed, that is a sense

:14:37.:14:43.

of the mood inside parliament as MPs return and as they were

:14:43.:14:47.

discussing the debate is focusing, part anyway, on police tactics and

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police numbers. This morning the acting Metropolitan Police

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Commissioner defended the way the capital's police forces acted

:14:54.:15:01.

What I would like to do is pay tribute to the men and women who

:15:01.:15:06.

went out on Monday night, when we faced unprecedented, unprecedented,

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violence and damage and criminality and looting. They were so brave. I

:15:12.:15:16.

was so proud of them, in terms of how they did stand up. Any

:15:17.:15:23.

suggestion that the officers stood back is wrong. We are joined now by

:15:23.:15:27.

the former Scotland Yard police commander Bob Milton. Good morning.

:15:27.:15:32.

Welcome to the programme. Sayeeda Warsi, did increasing the numbers

:15:32.:15:36.

of police on the streets on Tuesday night, particularly in London, stop

:15:36.:15:41.

the riots? Yes, I think it made a material difference. So doesn't it

:15:41.:15:45.

follow, therefore, that if you cut the police numbers, as your

:15:45.:15:50.

Government is planning to do, we are more likely to get disorder?

:15:50.:15:53.

what follows police officers should be out on the streets more. They

:15:53.:15:57.

should be spending more of their time in frontline policing rather

:15:57.:16:01.

than completing paperwork. There's a statistic which says the average

:16:01.:16:08.

officer spends 14% of his or her time on patrol and spends 22 % of

:16:08.:16:12.

their time completing paperwork. Are you telling our viewers that,

:16:12.:16:19.

even though overall police numbers are being cut, that's inco

:16:19.:16:24.

veritable, your Government admitted that, there'll not with a reduction

:16:24.:16:29.

of police on the streets? That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's

:16:29.:16:32.

a promise, a guarantee? The Home Secretary has been saying

:16:32.:16:37.

consistently that visible policing, which is what made the difference

:16:37.:16:41.

that night. I understand that. visible policing and the situation

:16:41.:16:48.

of the last three days, that if God forbid a situation like that was to

:16:48.:16:52.

arise we would have the visible police numbers to deal with it

:16:52.:16:55.

after the cuts. So to be clear, whatever the cuts in police budgets

:16:56.:17:00.

that are taking place, that will not lead to a reduction in police

:17:00.:17:04.

numbers fon streets? It will note lead to a reduction in police

:17:04.:17:09.

visibility on the streets. Police officers who currently maybe are

:17:09.:17:13.

sitting... What's the difference between visibility in numbers?

:17:13.:17:18.

actually be a police officer which is a statistic and part of the

:17:18.:17:22.

number but not spend any time on patrol. We are very clear about

:17:22.:17:25.

police visibility on the streets. In fact the reforms are about

:17:25.:17:29.

saying we don't want police officers sat in back rooms. I get

:17:29.:17:36.

the point. Charles Clarke, you are a former Home Secretary, according

:17:36.:17:42.

to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, in many areas only

:17:42.:17:51.

10% of the total police complement are in their -- are on the streets?

:17:51.:17:55.

In principle it is possible. That's what we were doing about numbers on

:17:55.:17:59.

the streets when I was Home Secretary and beforehand. A series

:17:59.:18:04.

of measures, the most important of which was neighbourhood policing,

:18:04.:18:08.

and establishing the police community support officers. The

:18:08.:18:11.

paperwork Sayeeda refer to is necessary to bring about the

:18:11.:18:16.

conviction of criminals. That's what police are engaged in doing.

:18:16.:18:19.

The airwave radio system, designed to increase the number of people

:18:19.:18:23.

going out on if beat. However, the core point is there's a cynicism

:18:23.:18:28.

and a dishonesty in what both the Home Secretary is saying and what

:18:28.:18:33.

Sayeeda just now said, with the suggestion that somehow you can cut

:18:33.:18:36.

the police gucts the scale that's necessary and at the same time

:18:36.:18:39.

retain the same or more police presence on the streets. I've

:18:39.:18:45.

spoken to many Chief Constables about this and to Denis oh Conor,

:18:45.:18:49.

it is simply not possible at this level. But if only 10% of police

:18:49.:18:56.

are on the streets, why is it not possible, why are 90% elsewhere?

:18:56.:19:00.

Because there's a whole set of patterns of policing, including

:19:00.:19:06.

focusing on areas of particular need. The policing the other need,

:19:06.:19:10.

that would mean there is much less police presence elsewhere. We

:19:11.:19:16.

called off football matches for that purpose. I'm not contesting,

:19:17.:19:22.

Andrew, that it is necessary to get a higher proportion of police time

:19:22.:19:26.

on the street. Would say however, that was being done, is being done,

:19:26.:19:29.

and cannot be done enough to justify the cuts in police numbers

:19:29.:19:34.

which the Government is proposing. You are a former policeman. What do

:19:34.:19:37.

you say? It is not simply how many police officers on the street, but

:19:38.:19:41.

how they operate. The communities over the last few days have given

:19:41.:19:45.

the Police Service a clear mandate. They do not want a Police Service

:19:45.:19:50.

that panders to who shouts loudist, and they are monitored to death.

:19:50.:19:53.

They want police officers going out there enforcing the law. Maybe they

:19:53.:19:57.

want a police force rather than a Police Service. You could say that.

:19:57.:20:03.

The point is that over the last 15- 20 years we've seen a slow erosion

:20:03.:20:06.

of the authority of police officers on the street. What's happening now

:20:06.:20:10.

is the shackles are being removed. We are seeing that large numbers of

:20:10.:20:15.

police officers are not sustainable. Of course we can't keep 16,000. But

:20:15.:20:18.

having police forces on the streets of London and the rest of the

:20:18.:20:22.

country on a 24 hour basis has shown communities what can be done.

:20:22.:20:28.

What do you make of reports in the media that the Metropolitan Police,

:20:28.:20:32.

as these riots gathered pace, and before the show of strength on

:20:32.:20:36.

Tuesday night, that ordinary bobbies in the riot gear and on the

:20:36.:20:42.

streets were instructed, "To stand and observe" rather than take on

:20:42.:20:45.

the rioters. There are two issues there. Can you confirm that?

:20:45.:20:49.

can't confirm, that because I wasn't in the control room. No, but

:20:49.:20:54.

you have contacts in the police. What I can say clearly is when you

:20:54.:20:59.

have disorder, you have to stamp it out straight away. That means

:20:59.:21:02.

getting sufficient people there early. Once you've done that the

:21:02.:21:07.

problem goes away. We didn't get sufficient people there early,

:21:07.:21:10.

because we didn't have sufficient police officers on the response

:21:11.:21:15.

teams 24 hours ago. Police community support officers are a

:21:15.:21:20.

good ideal. A good idea which hasn't worked. These officers

:21:20.:21:24.

individually may be very good but collectively they can't deal with

:21:24.:21:28.

this problem. They very expensive. They are not designed to deal with

:21:28.:21:33.

this type of problem. We need to build up the 24 hour response teams.

:21:33.:21:37.

We need to remove police officers from the offices. Concentrate on

:21:37.:21:42.

police officers on the street who can deal with problems. The rest of

:21:42.:21:45.

the criminal justice system needs to step up and support the Police

:21:45.:21:50.

Service as well. Could you, as chairman of the Conservative Party,

:21:50.:21:56.

could you advise Conservative candidates in Croydon, Ealing,

:21:56.:21:59.

Battersea, all margin of seats which you could win or lose in an

:21:59.:22:03.

election, to justify your Government's policy of cutting

:22:03.:22:11.

police budgets by 2.5 billion and increasing overseas aid by �2.7

:22:11.:22:14.

billion? They are two separate issues. But they are both parts of

:22:14.:22:20.

the pot of money. Tell them how to justify that. Let me deal with the

:22:20.:22:23.

two issues separately. In relation to the police budget cuts, let's

:22:23.:22:28.

not forget this is about 6% in real cash terms. When we keep talking

:22:28.:22:31.

about billions and trillions it is very important to work this out in

:22:31.:22:35.

terms of what the police will be losing in real cash terms, and how

:22:35.:22:41.

they can be sure that the police numbers... The Mayor of London, a

:22:41.:22:45.

Tory.... He has every right to make a bid for more money, but that was

:22:45.:22:50.

the decision that was taken. Internationally it is not

:22:50.:22:54.

particularly popular and not particularly something that

:22:54.:22:58.

everybody would support. Wouldn't people think it is time to give aid

:22:58.:23:02.

to Croydon, Ealing and Tottenham and the inner cities of Manchester

:23:02.:23:05.

and Liverpool? I think you are completely wrong to compare the

:23:05.:23:11.

famine in Somalia, the floods in Pakistan, all the other programmes,

:23:11.:23:18.

to what happened in Tottenham. These are two completely different

:23:18.:23:21.

areas. I think as Conservative Party co-chairman one of the things

:23:21.:23:23.

I am proud about is the fact that the Conservative Party is saying

:23:23.:23:28.

that, as a party, we value the fact that despite being in tough

:23:28.:23:32.

financial circumstances we should stand by the poorest in the world.

:23:32.:23:36.

Bob Milton, have the police have a loss of confidence? Has there been

:23:36.:23:42.

a problem of the events of the G20 summit and the policeman, where the

:23:42.:23:47.

news agent was killed. Absolutely. And complaints about kettling

:23:47.:23:51.

during the student demonstrations, even though some were quite

:23:51.:23:55.

violent? Is there a feeling in the police force if we come down too

:23:55.:23:59.

hard we get thumped, and if we stand back we get thumped?

:23:59.:24:02.

Absolutely. I'm in contact with young police officers on the street

:24:02.:24:06.

and they are fearful. They have to think three or four times before

:24:06.:24:11.

making a decision. This this change this? I think it will. This is a

:24:11.:24:16.

watershed. If politicians, leaders of the police force and communities

:24:16.:24:18.

get together, there is an opportunity here to really change

:24:18.:24:22.

the way we police London and the rest of the country. And the

:24:22.:24:28.

Government is about to make it worse by getting Boris Johnson who

:24:28.:24:32.

sacked Commissioners of police and eroded that morale. That is not

:24:32.:24:38.

true, Charles. I'm sure some people in Ealing and Battersea and

:24:38.:24:41.

Tottenham wish they had more control over the police on Saturday

:24:41.:24:45.

night. But not Boris Johnson. leave that to Boris.

:24:45.:24:48.

The debate about police tactics and numbers centre stage, but what

:24:48.:24:53.

about the deeper questions, about why these looters and rioters, why

:24:53.:24:59.

did they take to the streets in the first place? Was it opportunistic?

:24:59.:25:01.

Yesterday the Prime Minister returned to his broken Britain

:25:01.:25:05.

theme. He made a lot about nit opposition. He said, "There are

:25:05.:25:10.

pockets of our society that aren't just broken but are frankly sick."

:25:10.:25:17.

Harriet Harman struck a more sympathetic tone, citing youth

:25:17.:25:20.

unemployment and the Education Maintenance Allowance.

:25:20.:25:24.

She said young people feel they are not being listened to by the

:25:24.:25:28.

current Government Boris Johnson chose the moment to fire an awkward

:25:29.:25:34.

shot across the bows of the Government. He said this is not a

:25:34.:25:38.

time to think about making substantial cuts in police numbers.

:25:38.:25:43.

Ken Livingstone blamed the rioting on the Government's spending cuts.

:25:43.:25:45.

The economic stagnation and cuts being imposed by the Tory

:25:45.:25:49.

Government, he said, inevitably create social division.

:25:49.:25:53.

So, the political blame game is now well under way. We'll probably get

:25:53.:25:59.

more of it when we go to Parliament at 11.30. For the moment we are

:25:59.:26:04.

joined by the BBC's Nick Robinson. Nick, good to see you in August!

:26:04.:26:08.

Labour's line on this, I'm a little unsure what it is at the moment. It

:26:08.:26:12.

seemed for a while they were emphasising the law and order

:26:12.:26:15.

approach. Now we have Harriet Harman, put aside Ken Livingstone,

:26:15.:26:18.

who is a law under to himself, but Harriet Harman talking about

:26:18.:26:22.

Government cuts. I think Ed Miliband has been determined to

:26:22.:26:27.

keep his party talking about one thing - public order. Which is why

:26:27.:26:31.

he didn't back Ken Livingstone when he seemed to link wit the cuts. He

:26:31.:26:35.

certainly didn't back Harriet Harman when she, in rather

:26:35.:26:40.

difficulty language, and she insists she was misquoted by

:26:40.:26:43.

Newsnight, she seemed to suggest there was a cut in Education

:26:43.:26:49.

Maintenance Allowance, cuts in koulth services. Is it?

:26:49.:26:55.

directly. You have to have policies to help aspiration. The idea that

:26:55.:26:57.

the Government's policies are causing the action on the streets

:26:57.:27:02.

is wrong. It doesn't help what's happening in inner cities but to

:27:02.:27:06.

say these events took place because of a Government cut on EMA, that's

:27:06.:27:11.

wrong. Who was in charge, Warsi works of the country when the riots

:27:11.:27:17.

began on Saturday night? The Prime Minister was in charge. He was

:27:17.:27:20.

informed constantly what was happening. He was in Tuscany.

:27:20.:27:24.

was informed what was happening. The Home Secretary was aware of

:27:24.:27:30.

what was happening and when he realised things were getting worse

:27:30.:27:34.

he returned. People do want to know who was in charge. Even if the

:27:34.:27:37.

Prime Minister was in charge, I understand about modern

:27:37.:27:44.

communications, and he was only in Tuscany, not that far away, only an

:27:44.:27:50.

hour's time difference. Where were you? I was in France, but I don't

:27:50.:27:54.

run the country. Of course not. he was in charge, why did it take

:27:54.:28:00.

until Tuesday night to get a robust response? Wing we can sit here and

:28:00.:28:04.

we can talk who was where at what time? What's the answer to my

:28:04.:28:07.

question? What is moist important is did we make sure that our

:28:07.:28:11.

streets were protected. You didn't! Did the Prime Minister make sure

:28:11.:28:15.

the situation was brought under control. Many people would say you

:28:15.:28:19.

didn't. Why did it take until Tuesday night, so that people in

:28:19.:28:24.

Tottenham and in Hackney and in Birmingham and Liverpool, Ealing

:28:24.:28:28.

and so on, by then ordinary shopkeepers had been burnt out of

:28:28.:28:31.

their premises. If the Prime Minister was running the country on

:28:31.:28:35.

Saturday night, why did it take until Tuesday night? If you are

:28:35.:28:39.

saying that if the Prime Minister had been in the country none of

:28:39.:28:43.

that would have happened, which is what you are suggesting. No, I'm

:28:43.:28:47.

not making the issue of where he was. I'm asking you, if the Prime

:28:47.:28:50.

Minister as in charge of the country, why did it take until

:28:50.:28:53.

Tuesday night? Because, if that's what you are suggesting that the

:28:53.:28:56.

Prime Minister was not in the country. Just answer the question.

:28:56.:29:00.

I'm not suggesting anything. are. I will ask it again. If the

:29:00.:29:04.

Prime Minister was in charge of the country on Saturday night, why did

:29:04.:29:09.

it take until Tuesday night, after which so much destruction and

:29:09.:29:14.

ordinary people had their lives shattered y did it take until then.

:29:14.:29:18.

You can keep eemphasising the question. This was a changing set

:29:18.:29:22.

of circumstances. We have in the past had public disorder, looting,

:29:22.:29:27.

robberies and burglaries. What we had on these nights were looting,

:29:27.:29:31.

robberies and public disorder, widespread, in different areas at

:29:31.:29:38.

the same time, with gangs using social networking sites, BlackBerry

:29:38.:29:41.

Messenger and Twitter to get together quickly and move on to a

:29:41.:29:47.

new area. I'm sure once our streets are safe, once we've moved on from

:29:47.:29:52.

all of this, of course lots of people will look back at what could

:29:52.:29:55.

have been done operationally, whether policing would coo have

:29:55.:30:00.

been done differently. These will have to be answered. Let's admit

:30:00.:30:03.

not forget the extreme circumstances we found ourselves.

:30:03.:30:09.

It was right for the Prime Minister to say when he realised this was an

:30:09.:30:12.

everchanging matter he was in the country and he made sure our

:30:13.:30:17.

streets were protected. Sundaying morn there was anarchy in

:30:17.:30:23.

Wood Green. Shops were being looted, people terrorised, with impunity by

:30:23.:30:27.

Sunday morning it was clear something different was taking

:30:27.:30:35.

place. Why was there no real This was a constantly changing

:30:35.:30:38.

situation which the Prime Minister was aware of and when he felt the

:30:38.:30:41.

matter had got worse, having been in contact constantly throughout

:30:41.:30:44.

that period, he returned. He took charge and what we should look at

:30:44.:30:48.

is how we then took charge, how he then made sure that the streets

:30:48.:30:53.

were protected, the operational changes were made, and people felt

:30:53.:30:57.

that their streets were protected. We can go over this over and over

:30:57.:31:00.

again, or we can actually say right now what's the most important thing

:31:00.:31:04.

is to make sure people feel safe on the streets of London and in other

:31:04.:31:07.

cities and things get back to normal. People will now make up

:31:07.:31:09.

their minds whether you have answered the question or not.

:31:09.:31:14.

have. It's up to the viewer. It's not for me to decide or the you,

:31:14.:31:18.

the viewers will decide and will let us know in these days of tweets

:31:18.:31:26.

and e-mails. What's the mood on the Tory backbenches at the moment?

:31:26.:31:31.

will discover, most of them have been away. I was in Wolverhampton

:31:31.:31:33.

with the Prime Minister yesterday. What you were talking about there,

:31:34.:31:36.

there was a debate in Downing Street about whether to bring the

:31:36.:31:39.

Prime Minister back with some people inside Number 10 concerned

:31:39.:31:43.

that the act of bringing him home would somehow make it appear more

:31:43.:31:47.

of a crisis. Bear in mind there are always calls on senior politicians

:31:48.:31:52.

to come back from holidays and always resistance from them and

:31:52.:31:55.

their aides because the danger is you set a precedent and you do it

:31:55.:31:58.

endlessly. There had been calls for the Prime Minister to return

:31:58.:32:01.

because of the economic crisis before this happened but it's clear

:32:01.:32:05.

that there are a number of people in Number 10 saying do not bring

:32:05.:32:09.

David Cameron home, it will make it look worse and eventually those who

:32:09.:32:14.

were in favour of persuading him to come home did succeed but they now

:32:14.:32:19.

regret I think they didn't do it sooner. I was trying to raise the

:32:19.:32:22.

issue of not whether or not the Prime Minister should have come

:32:22.:32:26.

home or not, that's a matter of judgment, but if as the chairman

:32:26.:32:29.

has told us the Prime Minister was in charge of the country from

:32:29.:32:32.

Tuscany, with the help of others, why did it take so long to get a

:32:32.:32:36.

response? That's an excellent question, the issue is about the

:32:36.:32:39.

command and control mechanism which is not about where the Prime

:32:39.:32:42.

Minister is physically. That was my point. The question is what was the

:32:42.:32:46.

command and control mechanism. I don't understand why COBRA was

:32:46.:32:50.

brought together over the Prime Minister returned. COBRA could have

:32:50.:32:53.

been brought together on Sunday or Monday by the Home Secretary or by

:32:53.:32:56.

another Minister as appropriate, not even necessarily Government

:32:56.:32:59.

Minister, it could have been a senior official, if it was

:32:59.:33:02.

necessary to bring together. Presumably the Prime Minister could

:33:02.:33:06.

have joined by video or phone. easily. I believe the reason

:33:06.:33:09.

actually is that the scale of the problem wasn't understood by the

:33:09.:33:14.

Government, possibly even by the Metropolitan Police until as late

:33:14.:33:18.

as about Monday lunchtime. Isn't there another factor here, which

:33:18.:33:21.

you will know from your time as Home Secretary, part of the change

:33:21.:33:24.

in the responsibilities for the Metropolitan Police means nobody's

:33:24.:33:27.

sure who is in charge, not only do you have an acting Commissioner at

:33:27.:33:34.

the met, he has two bosses, the Home Secretary and the Mayor of

:33:34.:33:37.

London, who both happened to be on holiday. There seemed a lack of

:33:37.:33:40.

clarity. And this was an operational matter and should have

:33:40.:33:44.

been dealt with by the operational response of people responsible.

:33:44.:33:47.

It's why I am concerned about the whole question of elected

:33:47.:33:52.

Commissioners and so on. You have an absolutely clear operational

:33:52.:33:58.

accountability, without that accountability being consistently

:33:58.:34:00.

second-guessed, as Boris Johnson done with this police force in

:34:00.:34:06.

London and led to a morale collapse at the top of the Met meaning a

:34:06.:34:10.

real absence of leadership at a time when it was needed.

:34:10.:34:12.

tactics clearly did change later in the week and changed after the

:34:12.:34:16.

Prime Minister returned, chaired COBRA and the Prime Minister's not

:34:16.:34:21.

in charge of it at all. You had Kit Malthouse, Boris Johnson's deputy

:34:21.:34:25.

was in the country dealing with the police, then Boris Johnson returns,

:34:25.:34:29.

in the end it did appear that tactics consciously changed after

:34:29.:34:33.

the Prime Minister returned. Let me tell our viewers it's now just

:34:33.:34:39.

coming up to 25 minutes to 12, you are watching a Daily Politics

:34:39.:34:42.

special to coincide with the return of parliament. You should be able

:34:42.:34:47.

to look at it there, it's a packed House. They've all come back from

:34:47.:34:50.

holidays. We are waiting on the Prime Minister to make his

:34:50.:34:53.

statement, it will be followed by a statement from the leader of the

:34:53.:34:57.

opposition and then the Prime Minister will take questions from

:34:57.:35:06.

backbenchers on both sides. Charles Clarke, a lot of talk about

:35:07.:35:12.

the traditional forms of social deprivation that can cause social

:35:12.:35:16.

unrest and so on. If you take Tottenham, I was looking at the

:35:16.:35:19.

figures, where this all started, I am going to have to hold that

:35:20.:35:24.

question... We go straight to the House.

:35:24.:35:31.

The question is as on the order papers. The ayes have it. Statement

:35:31.:35:35.

from the Prime Minister. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:35:35.:35:39.

With permission, I would like to make a statement. First of all, let

:35:39.:35:42.

me thank you Mr Speaker and honourable and right honourable

:35:42.:35:45.

members for returning. When there are important events in our country

:35:45.:35:49.

it is right that parliament is recalled and that we show a united

:35:49.:35:53.

front. I am grateful to the leader of the opposition for the

:35:53.:35:56.

constructive approach he has taken over the past few days. I have

:35:56.:35:59.

tried to speak with many of the members whose constituencies have

:35:59.:36:02.

been affected and I would like to pay particular tribute to the

:36:02.:36:05.

member for Tottenham for his powerful words and actions over

:36:05.:36:10.

recent days. What we have seen on the streets of London and in other

:36:10.:36:14.

cities across our country is completely unacceptable and I am

:36:14.:36:18.

sure the whole House will join me in condemning it. Keeping people

:36:18.:36:21.

safe is the first duty of Government. The whole country has

:36:21.:36:26.

been shocked by the most appalling scenes of people looting, violence,

:36:26.:36:31.

vandalising and thiefing. It is criminality, pure and simple and

:36:31.:36:35.

there is absolutely no excuse for it. We have seen houses, offices

:36:35.:36:40.

and shops raided and torched, police officers assaulted and

:36:40.:36:44.

firecrews attacked as they tried to put out fires. We have seen people

:36:44.:36:48.

robbing others while they lie injured and bleeding in the street.

:36:48.:36:51.

And even three innocent people being deliberately run over and

:36:51.:36:56.

killed in Birmingham. Mr Speaker, we will not put up with this in our

:36:56.:37:00.

country. We will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our

:37:00.:37:04.

streets and we will do whatever it takes to restore law and order and

:37:04.:37:09.

to rebuild our communities. First we must be clear about the sequence

:37:09.:37:14.

of events. A week ago today a 29- year-old man named Mark Duggan was

:37:14.:37:17.

shot dead by the police in Tottenham. Clearly there are

:37:17.:37:22.

questions that must be answered and I can assure the House that this is

:37:22.:37:26.

being investigated thoroughly and independently by the Independent

:37:26.:37:28.

Police Complaints Commission. We must get to the bottom of exactly

:37:28.:37:33.

what happened and we will. Mr Speaker, initially there were

:37:33.:37:36.

peaceful demonstrations following Mark Duggan's death and

:37:36.:37:39.

understandably and appropriately the police were cautious about how

:37:39.:37:45.

they dealt with this. However, this was then used as an excuse by

:37:46.:37:49.

opportunistic thugs in gangs, first in Tottenham then across London and

:37:49.:37:53.

in other cities and it's completely wrong to say there is any

:37:53.:37:59.

justifiable causal link. It is simply preposterous for anyone to

:37:59.:38:05.

suggest people looting in Tottenham, days later in Salford were in any

:38:05.:38:09.

way doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan. The young people

:38:09.:38:13.

stealing televisions and burning shops, that was not about politics

:38:13.:38:18.

or protest, it was about theft. Mr Speaker, in recent days individual

:38:18.:38:21.

police officers have shown incredible bravery and worked in

:38:21.:38:24.

some cases around the clock without a break and they deserve our

:38:24.:38:31.

support and our thanks. But what came increasingly clear this week

:38:32.:38:35.

there was simply far too few police deployed on to our streets and the

:38:35.:38:40.

tactics they were using weren't working. Police chiefs have been

:38:40.:38:43.

frank with me about why this happened. Initially the police

:38:43.:38:47.

treated the situation too much as a public order issue, rather than

:38:47.:38:51.

essentially one of crime. The truth is that the police have been facing

:38:51.:38:56.

a new and unique challenge, with different people doing the same

:38:56.:39:00.

thing basically looting in different places, but all at the

:39:00.:39:04.

same time. Mr Speaker, to respond to this situation we are acting

:39:04.:39:08.

decisively to restore order on our streets, to support the victims of

:39:08.:39:11.

this terrible violence, and to look at the deeper problems that have

:39:11.:39:16.

led to such a hard core of young people to decide to carry out such

:39:16.:39:20.

appalling criminality. Let me take each in turn. First, restoring

:39:20.:39:24.

order. Following the meetings of COBRA which I chaired on Tuesday

:39:24.:39:26.

and Wednesday and again this morning we have taken decisive

:39:26.:39:31.

action to help ensure more robust and effective policing. Because of

:39:31.:39:34.

decisions made by Metropolitan Police Commissioner Tim Godwin and

:39:34.:39:37.

other police chiefs up and down the country there are more police on

:39:37.:39:42.

the streets, more people being arrested, and more criminals being

:39:42.:39:44.

prosecuted. The Metropolitan Police increased the number deployed on

:39:45.:39:50.

the streets of London from 6,000 to almost 16,000 officers and this

:39:50.:39:54.

number will remain throughout the weekend. We have also seen large

:39:54.:39:58.

increases in deployments of officers in other affected areas.

:39:58.:40:01.

Leave in affected forces has been cancelled. Police officers have

:40:01.:40:06.

been bussed from forces across the country to areas of greatest need

:40:06.:40:10.

and many businesses have also quite rightly released special constables

:40:10.:40:15.

to help and they performed magnificently as well. More than

:40:15.:40:18.

1200 people have been arrested. We are making technology work for us

:40:18.:40:22.

by capturing images of the perpetrators on CCTV so even if

:40:22.:40:26.

they haven't been yet arrested their faces are known and they will

:40:26.:40:31.

not escape the law. As I said yesterday, no phoney human rights

:40:31.:40:34.

concerns about publishing photographs will get in the way of

:40:34.:40:38.

bringing these criminals to justice. Anyone charged with violent

:40:38.:40:42.

disorder and other serious offences should expect to be remanded in

:40:42.:40:46.

custody, not let back on the streets. And anyone convicted

:40:46.:40:50.

should expect to go to jail. Courts in London, Manchester, and the West

:40:50.:40:53.

Midlands have been sitting through the night and will do so for as

:40:53.:40:59.

long as is necessary. Magistrates courts have proved effective in

:40:59.:41:01.

ensuring swift justice. Crown courts are starting to deal with

:41:01.:41:04.

the most serious of cases. We are keeping under constant review

:41:04.:41:06.

whether the courts have the necessary sentencing powers that

:41:06.:41:10.

they need and we will act if necessary. As a result of the

:41:10.:41:14.

robust and uncompromising measures that have been taken, good progress

:41:14.:41:18.

is being made in restoring order to the streets of London and other

:41:18.:41:21.

cities around our country. As I have made clear, nothing should be

:41:21.:41:26.

off the table, every constingency should be looked at. The police are

:41:26.:41:31.

also authorised to use baton rounds and while they would not be

:41:31.:41:35.

appropriate now, we do have in place plans for water cannon to be

:41:35.:41:39.

available at 24 hours' notice. Some people have raised the issue of the

:41:39.:41:42.

Army. The acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said to me

:41:42.:41:46.

that he would rather be the last man left in Scotland Yard with all

:41:46.:41:50.

his management team out on the streets before he asked for Army

:41:50.:41:54.

support. That is the right attitude and one I share. But it is the

:41:54.:41:58.

Government's responsibility to make sure that every future contingency

:41:58.:42:01.

is looked at, including whether there are tasks that the Army could

:42:01.:42:06.

undertake that might free up more police for the front front --

:42:06.:42:09.

frontline. Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck by

:42:09.:42:14.

how they were organised by social media. Information can be used for

:42:14.:42:17.

good, but it can also be used for ill so we are working with the

:42:17.:42:20.

police, intelligence services and industry to look at whether it

:42:20.:42:23.

would be right to stop people communicating via these websites

:42:23.:42:26.

and services when we know they're plotting violence, disorder and

:42:26.:42:31.

criminality. I have also asked the police if they need any other new

:42:31.:42:35.

powers. Specifically on face masks, currently they can only ask for

:42:35.:42:39.

these to be removed in a specific geographical location and for a

:42:39.:42:42.

limited time. I can announce today that we are going to give the

:42:42.:42:47.

police the discretion to require the removal of face coverings under

:42:47.:42:50.

any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion they're

:42:50.:42:54.

related to criminal activity. And on dealing with crowds, we are

:42:54.:42:59.

looking also at the use of the existing des%al powers and with

:42:59.:43:02.

wider power of curfew is necessary. Mr Speaker, whenever the police

:43:02.:43:07.

face a new threat they must have the freedom and the confidence to

:43:07.:43:09.

change tactics as necessary. This Government will always make sure

:43:09.:43:14.

they have the backing and political support to do so. The fightback has

:43:14.:43:18.

well and truly begun. But there will be no complacency, and we will

:43:18.:43:22.

not stop this mindless violence and thuggery is defeated and law and

:43:22.:43:26.

order is fully restored on all our streets. Let me turn to the

:43:26.:43:29.

innocent victims. No one will forget the images of the woman

:43:29.:43:32.

jumping from a burning building, or the furniture shop that had

:43:32.:43:38.

survived the blitz but now has been tragically burned to the ground.

:43:38.:43:42.

And everyone will have been impressed by the brave words of

:43:42.:43:46.

Tariq Jahan, whose son was brutally and tragically run over and killed.

:43:46.:43:51.

Shops, businesses, homes, too many have been vandalised or destroyed.

:43:51.:43:55.

And I give the people affected this promise: We will help you repair

:43:55.:43:59.

the damage, get your businesses back up and running and support

:43:59.:44:03.

your communities. Let me take each in turn. On repairing the damages I

:44:03.:44:06.

can confirm that any individual home owner or business that's

:44:06.:44:10.

suffered damage to, or loss of their buildings, or property as a

:44:10.:44:14.

result of rioting can seek compensation under the riot damages

:44:14.:44:23.

Act even if uninsured. The Whereas normally claims must be received

:44:23.:44:28.

within 14 days, we will extend the period to 42 days. The Association

:44:28.:44:31.

of British Insurers have said they expect the industry to be paying

:44:31.:44:35.

out in excess of �200 million and have assured us that claims will be

:44:35.:44:39.

dealt with as quickly and constructively as possible. On

:44:39.:44:43.

supporting business, we are we are setting up a new �20 million

:44:43.:44:46.

support scheme to help affected businesses get back up and running

:44:46.:44:51.

quickly. And to minimise the cost facing businesses the Government

:44:51.:45:01.
:45:01.:45:03.

will enable authorities local to We will defer tax payments for

:45:03.:45:06.

businesses in greater need. For houses and businesses that have

:45:06.:45:11.

been most badly damaged we've instructed the valuation office to

:45:11.:45:14.

stop liability for council tax and business rates. A specific point

:45:14.:45:18.

was raised with me in Wolverhampton yesterday, that planning

:45:18.:45:22.

regulations make it difficult for shops to put up protective shutters.

:45:22.:45:25.

We will weed out unnecessary planning regulations to ensure that

:45:25.:45:29.

businesses can get back on their feet and feel secure on our high

:45:30.:45:33.

streets as soon as possible. On supporting local communities, I

:45:33.:45:40.

can confirm that the Bellwyn scheme to support local authorities will

:45:40.:45:46.

be parable. However, to support urgent funding we are establishing

:45:46.:45:50.

a �2 million recovery scheme to support councils to make areas safe,

:45:50.:45:53.

clean and clear again. The Government will meet the immediate

:45:53.:45:58.

costs of emergency accommodation for families made homeless by these

:45:58.:46:00.

disturbance. The Secretaries of State for communities, local

:46:00.:46:03.

Government and business have made available to the House details of

:46:03.:46:06.

all those schemes today. The situation continues to evolve and

:46:06.:46:10.

we will keep any additional support under close review.

:46:10.:46:15.

Finally, Mr Speaker, let me turn to the deeper problems. Responsibility

:46:15.:46:20.

for crime always lies with the criminal. MEMBERS: Hear, hear..

:46:20.:46:23.

These people were all volunteers. They didn't have to do what they

:46:23.:46:30.

did, and they must suffer the consequences. But crime has a

:46:30.:46:34.

context, we must not shy away from it. I've said before there's a

:46:34.:46:38.

major problem in society with children Gloag up not knowing the

:46:38.:46:42.

difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty but

:46:42.:46:47.

culture. A culture that glorifys violence, that shows disrespect to

:46:47.:46:53.

authority, that knows everything about rights and nothing about

:46:53.:46:56.

responsibilities. In too many cases the parents, if they are still

:46:56.:47:01.

around, don't care where their children are or what they are doing.

:47:01.:47:05.

The possibly consequences have been clear for too long without enough

:47:05.:47:08.

action being taken. As I said yesterday there is no one step that

:47:08.:47:13.

can be taken but we need a benefit system that rewards work and is on

:47:13.:47:17.

the side of families. We need more discipline in our schools, action

:47:17.:47:20.

to deal with the most disruptive families and a criminal justice

:47:21.:47:24.

system that score as clear and heavy line between right and wrong.

:47:24.:47:28.

In short, all action necessary to help mend our broken society. At

:47:28.:47:33.

the heart of all the violence sits the issue of street gangs.

:47:33.:47:37.

Territorial, hire ark cal and incredibly violent, they are mostly

:47:37.:47:43.

composed of young boys, mainly from dysfunctional homes. They earn

:47:43.:47:46.

money through crime, particularly drugs, and are bound together by an

:47:46.:47:50.

imposed loyalty to a gang leader. They have blighted life on their

:47:50.:47:57.

estates with gang on gang murders and proup volcanoed attacks on nebt

:47:57.:47:59.

bystanders. There is evidence that they've been behind the co-

:47:59.:48:02.

ordination of attacks on police and the looting that followed. I want

:48:02.:48:09.

us to use the record of success against gangs from cities like bost

:48:10.:48:15.

ston in the USA and Strathclyde Police, andened want this to be a

:48:15.:48:18.

national priority. We've introduced gang injunction and I can announce

:48:19.:48:21.

today we are going to use them across the whole country for

:48:21.:48:25.

children and adults. There are further sanctions available beyond

:48:25.:48:28.

the criminal justice system. Local authorities and landlords already

:48:28.:48:32.

have tough powers to evict the perpetrators from social housing.

:48:32.:48:36.

Some local authorities are already doing this. I want to see others

:48:36.:48:40.

follow their lead. We will consider whether these powers need to be

:48:40.:48:43.

strengthened further. The I've asked the Home Secretary to work

:48:43.:48:47.

with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other

:48:47.:48:53.

colleagues on a cross-Government programme to act on gang come. We

:48:54.:48:59.

should be looking beyond our shores to learn lessons, and that's why I

:48:59.:49:06.

shall discuss further with the Commissioner of Police in Los

:49:06.:49:10.

Angeles. The problem is not just gangs. There were people who saw

:49:10.:49:14.

shop windows smashed and thought it would be OK to go in and steal. It

:49:14.:49:18.

is not OK. These people too will have to face the full consequences

:49:18.:49:21.

of their actions. Mr Speaker, in the past few days

:49:21.:49:28.

we've seen a range of emotions sweep this country. Anger, fear,

:49:28.:49:33.

frustration, despair, sadness, and finally a determined resolve that

:49:33.:49:37.

we will not let a violent few beat us. We saw this resolve in the

:49:37.:49:42.

people who gathered in Clapham, Manchester, Wolverhampton with

:49:42.:49:51.

brooms to clean up our streets. We saw any knows that patrol in --

:49:51.:49:56.

patrolled the roads. Those who protected the Southall temple to.

:49:56.:50:00.

The law abiding people who play by the rules and are the overwhelming

:50:00.:50:04.

majority in our country, I stay fight-back has begun. We will

:50:04.:50:08.

protect you. If you've had your livelihood and property damaged we

:50:08.:50:12.

will compensate you. We are on your side. To the lawless minority, the

:50:12.:50:16.

criminals who've taken what they can get, I say this. We will track

:50:16.:50:20.

you down. We will find you. We will charge you. We will punish you. You

:50:20.:50:24.

will pay for what you have done. We need to show the world, which has

:50:24.:50:28.

looked on frankly appalled, that perpetrators of the violence we've

:50:28.:50:31.

seen on our streets are note in anyway representative of our

:50:32.:50:36.

country, nor of our young people. We need to show them that we will

:50:36.:50:40.

address our broken society. We will restore a sense of stronger

:50:40.:50:43.

morality and responsibility in every town, in every street and in

:50:43.:50:50.

every estate. And aee away from the Olympics we need to show them the

:50:50.:50:53.

Britain that doesn't destroy but that builds. That doesn't give up

:50:53.:50:58.

but stands up, that doesn't look back and always looks forward. I

:50:58.:51:03.

commend this statement to the house. THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband.

:51:03.:51:07.

Speaker, can I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and

:51:07.:51:11.

thank him for his suggestion to suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that

:51:11.:51:16.

Parliament was recalled? Whatever dedisagree on, week by week, month

:51:16.:51:20.

by month, today as a House of Commons we stand shoulder to

:51:20.:51:23.

shoulder, united against the vandalism and violence we have seen

:51:23.:51:27.

on our streets. The victims are the innocent people, who live in many

:51:27.:51:32.

of our cities, who have seen their homes and businesses destroyed.

:51:32.:51:36.

Their communities damaged. And their confidence about their own

:51:36.:51:41.

safety undermined. There can be no excuses. No justification. This

:51:41.:51:46.

behaviour has disgusted us all. It can't be allowed to stand. We will

:51:46.:51:51.

not allow it to stand. I want to join the Prime Minister in mourning

:51:51.:51:54.

the loss of life we've seen, including those killed in London

:51:54.:51:58.

and Birmingham. Our thoughts are with the family and friends of

:51:58.:52:05.

those who've died. With people like Haroon Jahan. We stand -- people

:52:05.:52:09.

like Tariq gentleman gentleman. He is the true face of Britain, the

:52:09.:52:15.

Britain of which we are all proud. I want to thank our brave policemen

:52:15.:52:19.

and women for the work they've been doing on our behalf, and the

:52:19.:52:24.

emergency services. We salute them for their courage, their dedication

:52:24.:52:27.

and their willingness to put themselves in harm's way for all of

:52:27.:52:31.

us and all our communities. Mr Speaker, thank to them a degree of

:52:31.:52:35.

order has been re-established on our streets. But from all sides of

:52:35.:52:40.

this House we know what the public want and are entitled to. A return

:52:40.:52:44.

to normality as well as order. Normality does not mean shops

:52:44.:52:49.

having to shut at 3.00pm because they fear looting. Normality does

:52:49.:52:53.

not mean rushing home because you are scared to be on the streets.

:52:53.:52:57.

Normality does not mean being fearful in your own home. They want

:52:57.:53:01.

to have back the most fundamental of all liberties, the ability to go

:53:01.:53:06.

about their business and lead their lives with security and without

:53:06.:53:11.

fear. They have a right to expect it and we have a responsibility to

:53:12.:53:16.

make it happen. Mr Speaker, to do this Parliament needs to do its job.

:53:16.:53:20.

Uniting against the violence, and being the place where we examine

:53:21.:53:25.

and debate all the issues involved. How we've got here, what it says

:53:25.:53:28.

about Britain, and what the response should be. First on

:53:28.:53:33.

policing, Mr Speaker, on the Army, I agree with what the Prime

:53:33.:53:37.

Minister said, which is that this is a job for the police. Can he in

:53:37.:53:41.

his response say what functions he thinks the Army might be able to do

:53:42.:53:46.

to relieve pressure on the police? Can he also confirm that the

:53:46.:53:49.

additional operational cost, which are significant, that police are

:53:49.:53:53.

facing, will be funded from the trez reserve and not place

:53:54.:53:57.

additional pressure on already stretched budgets? Can he also

:53:57.:54:01.

confirm that the increased presence on our streets which he said would

:54:01.:54:05.

remain in place until the weekend, will remain in place beyond the

:54:05.:54:09.

weekend until the police can be confident that the trouble will not

:54:09.:54:13.

recur? Mr Speaker, the events of the last few days have been a stark

:54:13.:54:16.

reminder to us all that police on our streets make our communities

:54:16.:54:21.

safer and make the public feel safer. Given the absolute priority

:54:21.:54:25.

the public attach to a visible and active police presence, does the

:54:25.:54:28.

Prime Minister understand why they will think it is not right that he

:54:28.:54:34.

goes ahead with the cuts to police numbers? Will he now think again

:54:34.:54:38.

about this issue? Secondly on criminal gist, the public are clear,

:54:38.:54:43.

they want to see swift, effective and tough a to send a message about

:54:43.:54:47.

the penalties and punishment from follow from the violence we've seen.

:54:47.:54:51.

We must see swift progress from charge to trial in these cases. Can

:54:51.:54:54.

the Prime Minister confirm there's a capacity within the courts and

:54:54.:54:57.

among our prosecutors to deal with cases swiftly not just for first

:54:57.:55:03.

appearance but throughout the trial process, including when people get

:55:03.:55:07.

to trial. It is right the Crown Prosecution Service is taking into

:55:07.:55:11.

account the aggravating circumstances within which is

:55:11.:55:15.

horrendous criminal acts took place. Does the Prime Minister agree that

:55:15.:55:18.

magistrates and judges need to have those circumstances at the front of

:55:18.:55:21.

their mind so that those found guilty of this disgraceful

:55:21.:55:25.

behaviour receive the tough sentences they deserve and the

:55:25.:55:29.

public expect? As the Prime Minister said, we have also been

:55:29.:55:33.

reminded about the importance of CCTV in catching those responsible.

:55:34.:55:40.

So will he undertake to look again at his proposals on CCTV, has been

:55:40.:55:44.

absolutely sure they in no way hinder bringing criminals to

:55:44.:55:47.

justice? Third, we need all of our cities back on our feet and

:55:47.:55:52.

operating as normal. That work began, and I pay tribute to the

:55:52.:55:55.

heroism of the thousands of volunteers who reclaimed our

:55:55.:56:00.

streets and showed the true spirit of our cities and our country. I

:56:00.:56:03.

welcome what the Prime Minister said and the elements of help he

:56:03.:56:06.

announced. Can he reassure us that the help that's provide Liberal

:56:06.:56:09.

Democrat meet the need and there won't be an arbitrary cap on the

:56:09.:56:13.

amount that he announced, if it turns out that further resources

:56:13.:56:17.

are required? Can he assure us these funds will flow straight away

:56:17.:56:22.

so that people can rebuild their lives and communities? Fourth, on

:56:22.:56:27.

the deeper lessons we need to learn, the Prime Minister said in 2006,

:56:27.:56:32.

understanding the background, the reasons, the causes. It doesn't

:56:32.:56:36.

mean excusing crime but it will help to tackle it. Mr Speaker, to

:56:36.:56:42.

seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are

:56:42.:56:46.

arguments of individual criminality. But we all have a duty to ask

:56:46.:56:49.

ourselves, why are there people who feel they have nothing to lose and

:56:49.:56:54.

everything to gain from wanton vandalism and looting? We cannot

:56:54.:56:59.

afford to do this to let this pass, to calm the situation down only to

:56:59.:57:03.

find ourselves in the same position again in the future. Mr Speaker,

:57:03.:57:08.

these issues cannot be laid ti door of a single cause or a single

:57:08.:57:12.

Government. The causes are complex. Simplistic solutions will not

:57:12.:57:17.

provide the answer. But Mr Speaker, we can only tackle these solutions

:57:17.:57:21.

by hearing from our communities. What the decent people I met on the

:57:21.:57:24.

streets of London and Manchester told me, and will tell the Prime

:57:24.:57:29.

Minister, is they want their voice to be heard. They want us to go out

:57:29.:57:32.

and listen to them in thinking about the solutions that are

:57:32.:57:39.

necessary. And before saying any of us we know all the answers, or have

:57:39.:57:43.

simple solutions, we should all do so. The Prime Minister explain how

:57:43.:57:46.

those in areas affect Liberal Democrat have their voice heard, as

:57:46.:57:50.

the Government seeks to find solutions to the issues we've seen?

:57:50.:57:55.

Will the Prime Minister agree there must be a full independent

:57:55.:57:57.

Commission of Inquiry, swiftly looking at what happened in recent

:57:57.:58:03.

days and the lessons that need to will be learned. Not an inquiry in

:58:03.:58:07.

Whitehall but reaching out and listening to those affected, the

:58:07.:58:10.

decent law abiding majority affected by these terrible events?

:58:10.:58:16.

They deserve and need to be heard. Mr Speaker, we need look at and act

:58:16.:58:19.

on all the issues that matter. The responsibility we need from top to

:58:19.:58:24.

bottom in our society, including parental responsibility. And an end

:58:24.:58:29.

to a take what you can culture which needs to change from the

:58:29.:58:31.

benefits office to the boardroom. The Prime Minister is right, we

:58:31.:58:36.

need a sustained efforts to tackle the gangs in our cities. Something

:58:36.:58:41.

we did know about before the riots. Will the Prime Minister look

:58:41.:58:44.

urgently at the Youth Justice Board report published last June which

:58:44.:58:47.

had a whole series of recommendations about what the

:58:47.:58:50.

Government should be doing to tackle gang culture? And of course,

:58:50.:58:55.

Mr Speaker, as we look at the solutions we need, questions of

:58:55.:58:59.

hope and aspiration are relevant. The provision of opportunities to

:58:59.:59:04.

get on in life which don't involve illegality and wrongdoing. When we

:59:04.:59:10.

talk about responsibility we must not forget ours. Not to the tiny

:59:10.:59:14.

minority who did the violence but the vast majority of law-abiding

:59:14.:59:18.

young people. They are a generation. This is not about any one

:59:18.:59:20.

Government worried and their prospects, and we can't afford to

:59:20.:59:25.

fail them. We can't afford to have the next generation believe they

:59:25.:59:28.

are going to do worse than the last. They should be able to do better.

:59:28.:59:32.

That's the promise of Britain they have a right to expect. Mr Speaker,

:59:32.:59:35.

let me say in conclusion, successful societies are built on

:59:35.:59:39.

an ethic of hard work, compassion, solidarity and looking after each

:59:39.:59:44.

other. Ours must be one society. We all bear a share of responsibility

:59:44.:59:49.

for what happens within it. It is right that we came back to debate

:59:49.:59:53.

these issues. It is right that public order must be paramount. But

:59:53.:59:58.

it is also imperative that even after order and normality are

:59:58.:00:02.

restored we do not ignore the lessons. We can't afford to move on

:00:02.:00:06.

and forget. For all the people who've been in fear this week, for

:00:06.:00:13.

those who've lost loved ones, homes and businesses, we owe a duty to

:00:13.:00:16.

ensure no repeat of what we've seen. That is our responsibility to the

:00:16.:00:20.

victims. It is our responsibility to the country. And we on this side

:00:20.:00:27.

will play our part in making it First of all, can I thank the right

:00:27.:00:29.

honourable gentleman for what he said today and also what he said in

:00:29.:00:33.

recent days and if I can say the way in which he has said it. He

:00:33.:00:37.

made a number of points. First of all, he is right to praise the

:00:37.:00:39.

emergency services and the work they've done. It's particularly

:00:39.:00:42.

remarkable that in spite of the fact that fires have been started

:00:42.:00:48.

in many cities across our country, there have been no casualties from

:00:48.:00:51.

those fires and I think that speaks volumes about the professionalism

:00:51.:00:56.

and brilliance of our firefighters nationwide. He rightly says that

:00:56.:00:59.

it's important that as soon as possible we get our high streets,

:00:59.:01:03.

our cities, our towns back to a real sense of normality. I would

:01:03.:01:06.

say first of all that has to start with this increased police presence

:01:06.:01:10.

so people feel the confidence to go out and to enjoy their towns and

:01:10.:01:13.

cities and I believe that will happen so that our cities become

:01:13.:01:16.

the great and bustling places we want them to be. He asked questions

:01:16.:01:20.

about police, about courts, communities and the deeper lessons.

:01:20.:01:23.

Let me say a word about each. On the police, what I said about the

:01:23.:01:29.

Army, I choose my words carefully, none of us want to see a break away

:01:29.:01:32.

from the great British model of policing where the public are the

:01:32.:01:34.

police and the police are the public. But I do think that

:01:34.:01:38.

governments have a responsibility to try and look ahead at

:01:38.:01:41.

contingencies and potential problems and start asking potential

:01:41.:01:45.

problems and difficulties in advance and that's exactly what

:01:45.:01:49.

COBRA has done, in terms of simply asking if there were tasks for

:01:49.:01:52.

instance, simple tasks that could be done that would free up police

:01:52.:01:55.

for more frontline duties. This is not for today or even for tomorrow,

:01:55.:01:59.

it's just so you have contingency plans in case it became necessary.

:01:59.:02:04.

He asked about operational costs, the Treasury reserve is being used.

:02:04.:02:09.

He asked about policing numbers beyond the weekend. Deployment must

:02:09.:02:14.

be an issue and a matter for police chiefs. They will want to assess

:02:14.:02:16.

the intelligence and the situation before making those decisions, but

:02:17.:02:20.

as far as the Government is concerned they should feel free to

:02:20.:02:24.

deploy as many police as they need for as long as they need. What

:02:24.:02:27.

matters most of all, more than anything else, is restoring order

:02:27.:02:31.

on our streets. He raised the issue of police budgets and I am sure

:02:31.:02:35.

this will be debated. Let me make a couple of points. What we are

:02:35.:02:39.

saying over the next four years, we are looking for cash reductions in

:02:39.:02:41.

policing budgets, once you take into account the fact there is a

:02:42.:02:46.

preset that helps fund the police of 6% reductions over the next four

:02:46.:02:51.

years, I believe that is totally achievable without any reductions

:02:51.:02:58.

in visible policing and - a growing number of police chiefs are making

:02:58.:03:03.

that point. Let me make two additional points on this. Today we

:03:03.:03:07.

still have 7,000 trained police officers in back office jobs, part

:03:07.:03:11.

of our programme of police reform is about freeing up police for

:03:11.:03:15.

frontline duties and that's why I can make this very clear pledge to

:03:15.:03:19.

the House, at the end of this process of making sure our police

:03:20.:03:24.

budgets are affordable we will still be able to surge as many

:03:24.:03:28.

police on to the streets as we have in recent days in London, in

:03:28.:03:31.

Wolverhampton, in Manchester, and I do think this is important people

:03:31.:03:36.

understand that. He asked about the courts system and whether we are

:03:37.:03:39.

able to surge capacity in our magistrates and Crown courts, yes

:03:39.:03:44.

that is exactly what COBRA has been asking for in recent days. On

:03:44.:03:47.

sentencing I choose my words very carefully, of course it's a matter

:03:47.:03:51.

for courts to sentence, but if you look at what the sentencing council

:03:51.:03:56.

says those people found guilty of violence on our streets should

:03:56.:04:01.

expect to have a custodial sentence. He asked questions about CCTV, we

:04:01.:04:06.

fully support CCTV. We want to regulate it to make sure it is used

:04:06.:04:09.

properly, but it has been immensely valuable as I have seen for myself

:04:09.:04:13.

in police control rooms up and down the country. He asked about in

:04:13.:04:18.

terms of communities whether there would be any cap on the Monday

:04:18.:04:22.

that's available for -- money available. Of course the Act

:04:22.:04:27.

doesn't have any any cap and because we are allowing the 42-day

:04:27.:04:30.

period people will be able to apply and the Government will stand

:04:30.:04:33.

behind the police. When it comes to the deeper lessons, I think he is

:04:33.:04:38.

right, he quoted a speech I made, I said it's explaining doesn't mean

:04:38.:04:42.

excusing and he is right to say the causes are complex. I hope that in

:04:42.:04:48.

the debates we have the causes don't immediately fall into a

:04:48.:04:52.

tiresome discussion about resources, when you have deep moral fail

:04:52.:04:55.

failures you don't hit them with a wall of money. It's right, the key

:04:55.:05:00.

word that he used and that I used is the issue of responsibility.

:05:00.:05:02.

People must be responsible for their actions, we are all

:05:02.:05:06.

responsible for what we do. Finally he asked about the question of how

:05:06.:05:10.

we will listen to communities and what sort of inquiry is necessary.

:05:10.:05:14.

I think in the first instance, and I found this from talking to many

:05:14.:05:17.

members of parliament on both sides of the House of Commons who are

:05:17.:05:20.

deeply in touch with their communities, in touch with their

:05:20.:05:23.

police forces and police chiefs, that one of the first things we can

:05:23.:05:26.

do in this House is properly bring to bear all the information that we

:05:26.:05:30.

are hearing from our communities and I understand that the home

:05:30.:05:32.

affairs select committee is going to hold an inquiry and I think we

:05:32.:05:37.

should try and ask a parliamentary inquiry to do this work first and

:05:37.:05:40.

on - I thank him for the general tone of what he says and I hope we

:05:40.:05:43.

can keep up this cross-party working as we deal with this

:05:43.:05:53.
:05:53.:05:53.

difficult problem. Why have our police been dispersing

:05:53.:05:58.

these hoods so that they can riot in other vicinities, instead of

:05:58.:06:06.

rounding them up? Does the Prime Minister remember that in 1971 at

:06:06.:06:14.

the peak of the opposition to the Vietnam war in the United States,

:06:14.:06:20.

that the US Government bought 16,000 troops in to Washington in

:06:20.:06:27.

addition to the police, that they rounded up the rioters, they

:06:27.:06:36.

arrested them, and they put 40,000 of them into the DC stadium in one

:06:36.:06:40.

morning. Has he any plans to make the Wembley Stadium available for

:06:41.:06:46.

similar use? I want the Wembley Stadium to be available for great

:06:47.:06:50.

sporting events. It's important that as we get back to a sense of

:06:50.:06:53.

normality those sporting events go ahead. Let me make this point,

:06:53.:06:56.

because the right honourable gentleman does ask an important

:06:56.:06:59.

point, which to be fair to the police and all of us should think

:06:59.:07:02.

carefully before we start criticising police tactics when

:07:02.:07:05.

they are the ones in the frontline. To be fair to the police, they now

:07:05.:07:09.

say that I think to begin with they spent too much time concentrating

:07:09.:07:13.

on the public order aspects and not enough on the criminal kpwreut as -

:07:13.:07:17.

- criminality aspects and it's been the greater police presence on the

:07:17.:07:19.

streets and the greater arresting of people that's helped to bring

:07:19.:07:22.

this situation under control and I think the police themselves, one

:07:22.:07:26.

chief said to me yesterday it's time to tear up some of the manual

:07:26.:07:29.

about public order and restart it. He said we have done this many

:07:29.:07:32.

times before in the police, we will do it again and we will get it

:07:32.:07:37.

right. It's in that spirit that we should praise British policing.

:07:37.:07:44.

Order. A great number of colleagues are trying to catch my eye. I issue

:07:44.:07:52.

my usually exortation for briefity. Can I I welcome what the Prime

:07:52.:07:56.

Minister said about the death of Mark Duggan and indeed about the

:07:56.:08:01.

compensation for victims. 45 people have lost their homes in Tottenham,

:08:01.:08:05.

burnt to the ground, running out of their homes carrying their children

:08:05.:08:12.

in their arms and their cry is where were the police? We can have

:08:12.:08:16.

this debate today, but it is no replacement for hearing from the

:08:16.:08:19.

people themselves. Will the Prime Minister come to Tottenham and

:08:20.:08:27.

speak to those victims and indeed to the independent shopkeepers,

:08:27.:08:32.

hairdressers and jewellers whose businesses are lying in cinders?

:08:32.:08:38.

And will he also commit to a public inquiry that looks at why initial

:08:38.:08:44.

skirmishes were allowed to lead to a situation in which the great

:08:44.:08:50.

Roman Road of Tottenham High Road is in cinders? I will certainly

:08:50.:08:54.

take up the invitation to go to Tottenham and hear for myself. I

:08:54.:08:58.

found in the visit I made to Croydon real anger on the streets

:08:58.:09:01.

about what happened, about how it could be allowed to happen and yes,

:09:01.:09:05.

a lot of questioning of the police tactics and the police presence. As

:09:05.:09:08.

I said in my statement, to be fair to the police I think to begin with

:09:08.:09:12.

because of the situation with Mark Duggan they were hanging back for a

:09:12.:09:16.

very good reason. But they clearly understand and they accept that

:09:16.:09:19.

that went on for too long and the police presence needed to be

:09:19.:09:24.

greater and it needed to be more robust and needed to be protecting

:09:24.:09:27.

people's homes and shops and people's houses. We will now do

:09:27.:09:31.

everything we possibly can to get those people rehoused quickly, to

:09:31.:09:37.

make sure that money is available, and I know my honourable friend has

:09:37.:09:42.

been in touch with almost all the leaders affected. In terms of the

:09:42.:09:45.

inquiry and what inquiries are necessary I think we should start

:09:45.:09:48.

with the home affairs select committee inquiry and let's let

:09:48.:09:53.

them do their work and let's take it from there.

:09:54.:09:58.

Will the Prime Minister encourage media organisations to immediate

:09:58.:10:01.

release -- immediately release all unseen footage of criminal

:10:01.:10:04.

behaviour to assist the police in bringing criminals to justice?

:10:04.:10:08.

will certainly do that. I was impressed in the control room of

:10:09.:10:13.

the West Midlands Police and emergency services yesterday, how

:10:13.:10:15.

amateur photographers have been sending in footage to help the

:10:15.:10:20.

police to arrest those that were guilty. As has been said today,

:10:20.:10:23.

everyone has a responsibility. Media organisations have a

:10:23.:10:30.

responsibility too and I hope they will act on it. Mr Speaker, no one

:10:31.:10:35.

disputes for a second the Prime Minister's determination to meet

:10:35.:10:38.

what he describes as the first duty of Government to keep the streets

:10:38.:10:42.

safe, but will he not understand that his repetition of what amounts

:10:42.:10:48.

to Treasury lines about police numbers and police budgets and also

:10:48.:10:53.

prison numbers sounds very complacent and could I beg of him

:10:53.:10:57.

to recognise a reality that these cuts will lead to fewer police on

:10:57.:11:03.

the streets, but also that he must reverse the softer sentencing plans

:11:03.:11:08.

of his Justice Secretary and stop the ludicrous plan the Justice

:11:08.:11:12.

Secretary has to close prisons when there is now patently an urgent

:11:12.:11:18.

need for more prison places? First of all, I don't accept what he says

:11:18.:11:22.

about police numbers and indeed neither do Chief Constables. Many

:11:23.:11:26.

Chief Constables, if I take the Chief Constable of the Thames

:11:26.:11:29.

Valley, what she said is what I haven't done at all is reduce the

:11:29.:11:32.

number of officers who do the patrol functions, so the officers

:11:32.:11:37.

you see in vehicles on foot, in uniforms on bicycles, we haven't

:11:38.:11:41.

cut those numbers. I think one of the things that was demonstrated by

:11:41.:11:45.

the last three days in the Met, where we have 32,000 officers, is

:11:45.:11:50.

actually they could take the action to surge from 3,000 on the streets,

:11:50.:11:54.

to 16,000 on the streets. I think that's a demonstration of using

:11:54.:12:03.

what you have to maximum effect. While Metropolitan Police Officers

:12:03.:12:08.

showed great courage and determination, will the Prime

:12:08.:12:11.

Minister agree with my concern that there were reports that police

:12:11.:12:16.

officers on several occasions were instructed to stand and observe

:12:16.:12:21.

rioting and looting that was taking place? Would he agree with me that

:12:21.:12:25.

cannot be acceptable behaviour and that if the police perhaps for

:12:25.:12:27.

understandable reasons for concerned because of the

:12:27.:12:31.

controversies after the G20 summit that they might be criticised for

:12:31.:12:35.

overreacting, there is an urgent need for fresh guidelines so that

:12:35.:12:41.

there is noam by tkpwaouity that's it's the police and not looters and

:12:41.:12:44.

rioters that will control our streets?

:12:44.:12:48.

He makes a good point. Obviously we will be looking again at the

:12:48.:12:51.

guidance. Let me be clear, there was no instruction to police

:12:51.:12:54.

officers to stand back but as I have said, and I think police

:12:54.:12:57.

chiefs have been very frank about this, that the balance between what

:12:57.:13:02.

is right for public order, and what is right for stopping criminality,

:13:02.:13:05.

looting and thiefing, that balance wasn't got right to start with.

:13:05.:13:09.

They admit that. They accept that. But they were, to be fair to the

:13:09.:13:13.

police, who do this very difficult job on all our behalf, they were

:13:13.:13:16.

facing a new set of circumstances. Yes, they've had riots before, yes

:13:16.:13:20.

they've had looting before, yes there's been violence and vandalism

:13:20.:13:23.

before but we haven't in our country before had the same thing

:13:23.:13:25.

happening in different places with different people all doing it at

:13:25.:13:28.

the same time. That was a challenge for them, a challenge I believe

:13:28.:13:31.

they're now meeting excellently, but they didn't get everything

:13:31.:13:36.

right to start with and they're the first to admit that. I am grateful

:13:36.:13:39.

to the Prime Minister for his telephone call yesterday, but what

:13:39.:13:43.

happened in Salford on Tuesday night was not about protest, it was

:13:43.:13:47.

about deliberate organised violent criminality. Will the Prime

:13:47.:13:51.

Minister give his full backing to the police to intervene in these

:13:51.:13:54.

circumstances because it was the case that some officers had

:13:54.:13:57.

instructions where they didn't have riot gear, where they weren't

:13:57.:14:01.

trained, that they had to stand by and watch what happened. The effect

:14:01.:14:05.

on public confidence is devastating. Will he ensure that the police have

:14:05.:14:09.

that backing and that confidence, review that guidance so that never

:14:09.:14:13.

again do we see the police fall back in the face of a violent mob

:14:13.:14:22.

as we saw on our streets? She knows this issue well and

:14:22.:14:31.

discussed this with the chief Chief Constable of Greater Manchester.

:14:31.:14:35.

Khaoerl what happen -- khaoerl what happened was unacceptable. I expect

:14:35.:14:38.

the gangs and criminals saw it as an opportunity to reassert

:14:38.:14:42.

themselves. All these lessons must be learned. I know the Greater

:14:42.:14:45.

Manchester police chief chief who I have spoken to, wants to learn

:14:45.:14:49.

those lessons. It's not right ever to cede control of our streets to

:14:49.:14:52.

hooligans which happened briefly in Salford but we have to judge, we

:14:52.:14:56.

have to to wrest with the operational judgment of police

:14:56.:14:59.

chiefs when they're on the streets but the time to learn lessons is

:14:59.:15:07.

Can I commend the Prime Minister for his decision on action on

:15:07.:15:12.

gangs? But I would like to raise another issue with him. He quite

:15:12.:15:17.

rightly raised or told the House about the fact the whole country

:15:17.:15:24.

was moved by the dignified words of the father of Haroon Jahan

:15:24.:15:29.

yesterday. When the father made those comments he did so against

:15:29.:15:32.

the background of ethnic tension and managed to calm the

:15:33.:15:36.

circumstances then. There's a risk that evil-minded people will try to

:15:36.:15:41.

use these conflicts to try to raise further ethnic conflicts in future.

:15:41.:15:45.

Is the Government going to take action with the communities to make

:15:45.:15:48.

sure that is not done? Government will certainly do that.

:15:48.:15:51.

I was in Birmingham yesterday and joined a meeting of community

:15:52.:15:56.

leaders from all religions, all creeds, all races, who came

:15:56.:16:00.

together to make sure that the communities did not respond in an

:16:00.:16:04.

inappropriate way to the dreadful events that had happened. I pay

:16:04.:16:07.

tribute to the Chief Constable of the West Midlands forest, to the

:16:07.:16:12.

leader of Birmingham City Council, and all those people who from their

:16:12.:16:16.

meeting went to their communities and appealed for calm. The scenes

:16:16.:16:19.

we saw on our television screens last night of communities coming

:16:19.:16:23.

together in Birmingham to try to stop violence taking place was a

:16:23.:16:28.

model of how these things should be done. What justification can there

:16:28.:16:32.

be in the West Midlands, bearing in mind what the Prime Minister just

:16:32.:16:36.

said, for very experienced police officers who have served 30 years

:16:36.:16:40.

or more being forced to retire against their wishes because of the

:16:40.:16:46.

cuts? Isn't at this time case, where there is no adequate police

:16:46.:16:50.

presence, as has been the case once or twice unfortunately during the

:16:50.:16:54.

last few days, it is the mob that takes over? I think the honourable

:16:54.:16:58.

gentleman is entirely right. When I was in Wolverhampton yesterday,

:16:58.:17:01.

what I heard was that the number of police officers was something like

:17:01.:17:04.

doubling overnight compared with the previous night. I suspect the

:17:04.:17:09.

same was happening in Walsall, West Brom itch and other parts of the

:17:09.:17:13.

West Midlands. One of the lessons we need to learn is the ability to

:17:13.:17:17.

surge the number of police officers rapidly in our communities when

:17:17.:17:21.

problems arise like this. Let me say again. The police do a

:17:21.:17:25.

difficult and dangerous job on our behalf. They learn from experience.

:17:25.:17:29.

They are hugely experienced at dealing with difficult situations.

:17:29.:17:33.

We must praise them when they get it right. We must say that some of

:17:33.:17:38.

the tactics need to change, but not substitute our judgment for theirs.

:17:38.:17:42.

That wouldn't be a sensible approach. My constituents and I

:17:42.:17:47.

witnessed some shocking events in Enfield on Sunday and Monday. But

:17:47.:17:54.

what was particularly shocking was the age of a number of the cull

:17:54.:17:59.

In the incidents that Would the Prime Minister assure me that he

:17:59.:18:03.

could ask the police authorities to work with the education authorities

:18:03.:18:06.

in an attempt to identify many of the secondary schoolchildren who

:18:06.:18:12.

were out there causing these crimes? I certainly think that's a

:18:12.:18:15.

sensible suggestion, but over and above that we have to recognise

:18:15.:18:19.

that the responsibility for the fact some of these children, and I

:18:19.:18:23.

use the word children individualsedly, rests with their

:18:23.:18:28.

parents. We need to have a sense that parents are going to take more

:18:28.:18:31.

responsibility for their children, teach them the difference between

:18:31.:18:37.

right and wrong and point out the that behaviour is unacceptable.

:18:37.:18:47.

is undeniable that these criminals who looted, stole, rioted, caused

:18:47.:18:51.

intolerable damage to the people who are the victims of this, must

:18:51.:18:57.

be dealt with by the police by the justice system. What I want to ask

:18:57.:19:03.

the Prime Minister is, do we regard these people, however abject their

:19:03.:19:12.

acts, as ir reclaimable to society, at great cost to the police, the

:19:12.:19:17.

justice system and prison system, or will we have positive policies

:19:17.:19:21.

to try, if possible, to reclaim them for society? I agree with the

:19:21.:19:25.

right honourable gentleman, we must never write people off, however bad

:19:25.:19:30.

they are. We must try and build a stronger society where you can turn

:19:30.:19:33.

people's lives around. I think one of the lessons from this is too

:19:33.:19:37.

many people have been left for too long. We need much earlier

:19:37.:19:40.

intervention. This is something where members on all sides of the

:19:40.:19:44.

House have spoken about, so when we see children going wrong we

:19:44.:19:48.

intervene earlier rather than leaving them to fall out of school

:19:48.:19:52.

and lapse into a life of criminality. If these riots had

:19:52.:19:57.

broken out in any city or town in Australia or America, the police

:19:57.:20:03.

would have had at their instant disposal water cannon, plastic

:20:03.:20:07.

bullets and tear gas. Across the UK British people watched on

:20:08.:20:10.

television while police were instructed to stand back, while

:20:10.:20:15.

shops were looted, homes or torched and cars set on fire. Does the

:20:15.:20:19.

Prime Minister really believe that 24 hours' notice of the US of water

:20:19.:20:24.

cannon is enough? Is it not that this is not about police numbers

:20:24.:20:28.

but about police being given the troops to do the job? First of all

:20:28.:20:34.

let me say to the honourable lady that the police do have access to

:20:34.:20:38.

baton rounds and they are able to make that decision to use them. In

:20:38.:20:42.

London they came quite close to making that decision. That must be

:20:42.:20:44.

an operational decision for the police. On the issue of water

:20:44.:20:48.

cannon, the very strong advice from the police is that, because on the

:20:48.:20:52.

whole they weren't dealing with very large crowds but very mobile

:20:52.:20:56.

crowds of people Hoare were intent on criminal behaviour, water cannon

:20:56.:20:58.

wouldn't have been appropriate in these circumstances. That's the

:20:58.:21:03.

police view. The point very made is that we should be ready for every

:21:03.:21:06.

possible contingency in the future, so we should know how we would

:21:06.:21:10.

answer future questions, which is why they are now available at 24

:21:10.:21:15.

hours' notice. I don't agree with her, I think the greatest possible

:21:15.:21:18.

deterrent to the sort of lawlessness we saw, is for people

:21:18.:21:22.

to know if they do that looting or violence they will be pulled out of

:21:22.:21:25.

that crowd, arrested immediately and be in front of a court that

:21:25.:21:28.

night. That is the answer. The Dee that is more police on the streets,

:21:28.:21:34.

so they are able to be more robust in the way that they intervene.

:21:34.:21:38.

I welcome all the steps taken by the Prime Minister since the start

:21:38.:21:42.

of these disorders and join with him and others in condemning the

:21:42.:21:47.

criminality and also praising the police? I, like he, was out on the

:21:47.:21:52.

streets of London yesterday. The key issue was police visibility. Is

:21:52.:21:57.

he saying that, if a police force has to dip into their con tinge sis

:21:57.:22:01.

in order to pay for what has been going on over the last few days

:22:01.:22:06.

that the Government will reimburse all this money? Can I thank the

:22:06.:22:09.

right honourable gentleman for what he said and the work his committee

:22:09.:22:15.

will be doing in the coming weeks? The Treasury is standing ready to

:22:15.:22:20.

assist police forces. The bill for the Metropolitan Police will be

:22:20.:22:24.

large. If they continue to deploy in these numbers lit get larger and

:22:24.:22:28.

the Treasury will stand behind that. Those of news the communities

:22:28.:22:32.

affected give our thanks to the police and the emergency services.

:22:32.:22:36.

But are conscious if the best deterrent is being caught, the

:22:36.:22:41.

police have a minority of their officers trained and able to use

:22:41.:22:48.

riot head gather and equipment. Can he look at that being reverse sod

:22:48.:22:52.

most police officers can act and intervene, and make sure the full

:22:52.:22:56.

force of the law doesn't good on the 50 per community, the serial

:22:56.:22:59.

communities, but adults with children who were going into the

:22:59.:23:04.

shops and nicking stuff, not just the children, to whom they are

:23:04.:23:07.

meant to be sitting an dismal the first point, yes of course

:23:07.:23:12.

there'll be a proper review in terms of what is the right balance

:23:12.:23:16.

between riot police and nor borough police sog we meet these

:23:16.:23:19.

emergencies were in future. In terms of prosecuting the guilty,

:23:19.:23:24.

the police should go after everybody. They've got the CCTV

:23:24.:23:31.

images. People all over the country are ringing up and explaining their

:23:31.:23:37.

neighbour has I qired a new 42 inch Palace ma screen. I would ask more

:23:37.:23:41.

people to do that. The people of Liverpool are united in their

:23:41.:23:44.

absolute condemnation of the criminal acts that wreaked so much

:23:44.:23:49.

havoc and caused so much fear in parts of Liverpool over the last

:23:49.:23:52.

few days. But what specific arrangements has the Prime Minister

:23:52.:23:56.

made to enable to city and indeed others who have suffered similarly

:23:56.:24:02.

to be able to be assisted in a swift recovery? I pay tribute to

:24:02.:24:05.

the honourable lady for speaking on behalf of Liverpool, which too

:24:05.:24:09.

suffered in terms of this violent disorder. Liverpool will be able to

:24:09.:24:13.

apply not only through the Bellwin scheme but through this new special

:24:14.:24:18.

scheme which doesn't have a threshold you need to cross to

:24:18.:24:23.

claim payments. The riot damages Act is effectively unlimited in the

:24:23.:24:27.

claims you can make. The Home Office will stand behind police

:24:27.:24:30.

forces. There'll be written statements in the House today so

:24:30.:24:35.

she can see details and share them with her council leader. I know

:24:35.:24:38.

Prime Minister will agree that we in Britain still have the best

:24:38.:24:42.

police force in the world. However, will he agree with he that's time

:24:42.:24:47.

that the police were refocused back to being crime fighters instead of

:24:47.:24:52.

social workers? I think the police have the clearest possible message,

:24:52.:24:57.

that we want them to be a police force, we want them to be focused

:24:57.:25:01.

on crime. We don't want them fighting paper behind their desk.

:25:01.:25:05.

They have had a clear message from the whole country this week that

:25:05.:25:08.

people want visible policing and robust policing too. The Prime

:25:08.:25:13.

Minister will be as pleased as I am there's been no rioting or looting

:25:14.:25:20.

in South Shields. He has rightly praised the independence, the

:25:20.:25:23.

professionalism of the Chief Constables why. Therefore does he

:25:23.:25:27.

wants the get rid of them all and make them stand for election?

:25:27.:25:30.

are not proposing to make Chief Constables stand for election. What

:25:30.:25:34.

we are proposing is to have police commissioners stand for election,

:25:34.:25:39.

replacing police authorities. The point I would make is this, that in

:25:39.:25:44.

recent days, in recent days I think the argument that yes you have out

:25:45.:25:49.

police Chief Constables, yes they have to be responsible for their

:25:49.:25:52.

judgments, but it is important they are accountable politically.

:25:52.:25:57.

There's a discussion that can take place between politicians and

:25:57.:26:04.

police chiefs is a good one. Ealing town centre was badly smashed up on

:26:04.:26:07.

Monday night. A man is critically ill in hospital, having been

:26:07.:26:16.

attacked by a yob when he tried to put out a fire in a litter bin.

:26:16.:26:20.

Morale was slightly lifted when the Prime Minister said that those big

:26:20.:26:23.

enough to take part in the protests are big enough to take the

:26:23.:26:27.

consequence. Can he ashaur that those found guilty will feel the

:26:27.:26:32.

full force of the law, including prison sentences? Yes, can I give

:26:32.:26:37.

her that assurance. I want to thank her for the briefing she gave me of

:26:37.:26:41.

what had been happening in Ealing on Monday night. The sentences must

:26:41.:26:45.

be a matter for the courts but the sentencing guidelines council is

:26:45.:26:49.

clear that people taking part in violent disorder should expect to

:26:49.:26:55.

go to prison. Can I invite the Prime Minister to join me and the

:26:55.:26:59.

people of Walthamstow not only in putting on the record our gratitude

:26:59.:27:03.

to the police who work sod hard to restore calm to our streets, but

:27:03.:27:07.

the outreach and community workers Hoare have been out every night

:27:07.:27:11.

talking too people to reduce the tension and restore order on our

:27:11.:27:15.

streets, in partnership with the police? Can I invite him to meet

:27:15.:27:20.

with those people to understand it is not tiresome and we must learn

:27:20.:27:25.

from their experience in restoring order every day in our communities

:27:25.:27:30.

across the country? I will certainly will happy to meet with

:27:30.:27:33.

the honourable lady. The point she makes that reclaiming the streets

:27:33.:27:38.

is not just an issue for the police but for everybody I think is

:27:38.:27:40.

absolutely right. We've seen fantastic examples of that across

:27:40.:27:44.

our country. The point I was trying to make about resources, of course

:27:44.:27:48.

resources will be debated in the debate that follows later, but I

:27:48.:27:54.

hope also we can have a debate about some of the culture, the

:27:54.:27:57.

upbringing, the parenting and the deeper point that lie behind these

:27:57.:28:04.

problems. Mr Speaker, frontline officers were telling me last night

:28:04.:28:10.

they've been afraid to use a measure of physical force because

:28:10.:28:13.

of concerns about criticisms by members of Parliament, which

:28:13.:28:17.

they've seen before. When the Prime Minister said we'll be robust and

:28:17.:28:22.

too whatever it takes, can he assure us that members of the House

:28:22.:28:28.

will support the police if they have to strike be batons or kettle

:28:28.:28:32.

them in? Force has to be met with greater force. I know the

:28:32.:28:36.

honourable gentleman serves as a Special Constable himself. People

:28:36.:28:39.

do want to have robust policing. Of course the police have to be

:28:39.:28:43.

sensitive to things that have happened in the past. Sometimes the

:28:43.:28:47.

pendulum can swing too far one way and too far the other. I'm sure

:28:47.:28:52.

message is loud and clear, that when there is this sort of violent

:28:52.:28:57.

criminal behaviour, people want a robust support. The Prime Minister

:28:57.:29:02.

has talked about the role played by gangs and technology the disorder

:29:02.:29:06.

that has taken place over the last week. Does he share my concern

:29:06.:29:10.

about the popularity and accessibility of internet footage

:29:10.:29:15.

glorifying gangs and knives? And what will he do to ensure that

:29:15.:29:20.

these despicable videos are taken down? I think honourable lady

:29:20.:29:24.

speaks powerfully for Lewisham, her constituency, and on this issue,

:29:24.:29:27.

where frankly everyone has responsibility, not just members of

:29:27.:29:31.

Parliament, police, parents but media companies and social media

:29:31.:29:35.

companies, who are displaying these images. All of them should think

:29:35.:29:38.

about their responsibilities and taking down those images. That's

:29:38.:29:43.

why the Home Secretary is going to have meetings to see what more can

:29:43.:29:53.
:29:53.:30:05.

be done. Can he reassure me and my

:30:05.:30:07.

constituents that we are not just going to see a temporary change in

:30:07.:30:11.

police tactics and visibility but a permanent one?

:30:11.:30:14.

I thank the honourable gentleman for what he did to introduce me to

:30:14.:30:20.

some of the shopkeepers and affected home owners in his

:30:20.:30:24.

constituency, some of whom have been made homeless. One of the

:30:24.:30:28.

things that's been demonstrated is the importance of surging police

:30:28.:30:32.

numbers quickly. There are 32,000 officers in the Met and having just

:30:32.:30:38.

3,000 on the streets on Monday, - on Sunday, 6,000 on Monday, wasn't

:30:38.:30:40.

enough, that's why action was taken to increase it and I am sure

:30:40.:30:44.

lessons will be learned in that regard.

:30:44.:30:48.

We are leaving the House of Commons now, if you want to continue

:30:48.:30:51.

watching the debate and question and answer session you can do so by

:30:51.:30:56.

switching to the BBC News channel or the BBC parliament channel. You

:30:56.:30:59.

are watching a special edition of the Daily Politics here on BBC2 as

:30:59.:31:03.

parliament has been recalled for an emergency session following the

:31:03.:31:07.

riots in London and other English cities over the past few days. In

:31:07.:31:10.

his statement to the Commons and the nation the Prime Minister had a

:31:10.:31:16.

message for those who have been harmed by the riots, we are on your

:31:16.:31:20.

side, he told the country, and for those who took part in the riots, I

:31:21.:31:24.

paraphrase, he used a version of what Mr Reagan once said about

:31:24.:31:28.

terrorists, you can run but you cannot hide. The Prime Minister

:31:28.:31:32.

admitted that the police got the balance wrong at the start of these

:31:32.:31:36.

riots, they should have gone in harderment he -- harder. He says

:31:36.:31:40.

they admit that themselves but they're now on top of matters. The

:31:40.:31:43.

leader of the opposition, Ed Miliband, responded with a number

:31:43.:31:47.

of questions. It was a pretty bipartisan House that met today,

:31:47.:31:51.

there wasn't a lot of party political points scoring. The only

:31:51.:31:59.

sense of disagreement between both sides was when the Prime Minister

:31:59.:32:03.

argued that you can cut police budgets but still keep the number

:32:03.:32:07.

of police required on the streets without harming that. The leader of

:32:07.:32:12.

the opposition said he wanted an inquiry into what had happened but

:32:12.:32:16.

an inquiry that involved not listening to experts in Whitehall

:32:16.:32:22.

but listened to those who had been victims and sufferers of violence

:32:22.:32:26.

over the past few days. With me Conservative deputy chairman

:32:26.:32:31.

Michael Fallon and Sayeeda Warsi had to leave us to listen to an

:32:31.:32:34.

equivalent statement in the House of Lords. And we still have the

:32:34.:32:38.

former Labour Home Secretary Charles Clarke and the BBC's

:32:38.:32:41.

political editor Nick Robinson. Give me an overview of what you

:32:41.:32:44.

have seen. I was struck, as you have said, by the tone really. I

:32:44.:32:48.

expected it, I thought the House would want to send a unified

:32:48.:32:52.

statement, but we have listened to a lot of contributions and I

:32:52.:32:56.

thought by now someone might have raised a slightly discordant note,

:32:56.:33:02.

they've not. What's striking is a shift in the mood about police

:33:02.:33:05.

tactics and a shift in the mood about the desire for tougher

:33:05.:33:08.

measures, so you have had criticisms from a former Home

:33:08.:33:13.

Secretary, Jack Straw, echoing those made by by Charles Clarke

:33:13.:33:16.

here and really you are hearing voices on Labour benches and

:33:16.:33:19.

Conservative Party benches and even from Simon Hughes on the Liberal

:33:19.:33:22.

Democrats benches which is surprising, essentially calling for

:33:22.:33:26.

the police to act tougher, for the courts to sentence for longer, and

:33:26.:33:30.

then that debate about police resources as well. After a moment

:33:30.:33:34.

in which both frontbenches, Conservative and Labour, appeared

:33:34.:33:44.
:33:44.:33:44.

to take a more civil Lib tearian line, I think we have seen quite an

:33:45.:33:50.

important shift. I wonder what the significance of this shift, we have

:33:50.:33:55.

the Labour MP for Tottenham, David Lammey, bemoaning the fact the

:33:55.:33:59.

police weren't there. We have had shopkeepers of all races and

:33:59.:34:02.

colours, small shopkeepers who have built their lives from nothing,

:34:02.:34:06.

many of them first, second, third generation immigrants saying where

:34:06.:34:09.

were the police? There's no law and order in this country. I remember

:34:09.:34:13.

covering the Brixton riots in the early 80s when the demand there was

:34:13.:34:17.

the police had been too tough, police had no relations with the

:34:17.:34:21.

community. This is a shift and it may, to put it in rather vulgar

:34:22.:34:25.

language of politics, has this country shifted several notches to

:34:25.:34:29.

the right on these matters? This is very interesting. I was a

:34:29.:34:34.

councillor in Hackney in 19... Where that all happened at that

:34:34.:34:37.

time and the issue was about the police being heavy-handed. There

:34:37.:34:41.

was a shift towards community policing, I think a positive shift.

:34:41.:34:45.

And over the last five years I would say on the civil liberties

:34:45.:34:49.

issues, even on the Conservative benches, even David Cameron,

:34:49.:34:53.

certainly David Davis were extremely Lib tearian against some

:34:53.:34:59.

of the things we were trying to do. Opposing what we were doing. I

:34:59.:35:02.

thought the tone of what the Prime Minister said was extremely

:35:02.:35:05.

interesting and significant and I would say positive, in shifting

:35:05.:35:09.

back towards giving the police the support they need to be able to

:35:09.:35:12.

police properly. I think the police's morale has been seriously

:35:12.:35:16.

weakened by all the issues around the subjects like kettling, around

:35:16.:35:20.

the issues around Mr Tomlinson. the G20. The demonstration. Even

:35:21.:35:24.

around some of the issues around Jean Charles de Menezes and the

:35:24.:35:27.

issues around that. So, they've become very concerned about how to

:35:27.:35:31.

act, where to act. There's been a widespread civil liberties lobby,

:35:31.:35:34.

some parts of the Labour Party, large parts of the Conservative

:35:34.:35:38.

Party, some parts of the media, and I thought the tone as you rightly

:35:38.:35:44.

said and Nick also said, of this statement today signalled a change

:35:44.:35:47.

in tone which is significant and important and I would say positive.

:35:47.:35:51.

Are we seeing a move as a result of what has happened with all segments

:35:51.:35:56.

of society calling for a tougher police response? The police getting

:35:56.:36:00.

on the neck a few times there in parliament for not being there when

:36:01.:36:04.

they were needed, other MPs saying they weren't there in Salford. Are

:36:04.:36:08.

we seeing a shift in public attitude? I think we are. Also the

:36:08.:36:11.

police have been honest about this. Those Chief Constables where they

:36:11.:36:15.

did have an operational manual where if you didn't have the right

:36:15.:36:18.

kit you were to stand back and observe and hope to catch them

:36:18.:36:22.

later on CCTV, they've now admitted, as the Prime Minister said, they

:36:22.:36:27.

got that balance between public order and criminality wrong.

:36:27.:36:31.

the Conservatives get it wrong as well? I don't think so. Will we

:36:31.:36:36.

hear more about hug a hoody? What you are getting now under police

:36:36.:36:40.

reforms is elected police Commissioners and I don't think now

:36:40.:36:43.

you are going to find Chief Constables saying it's sufficient

:36:43.:36:47.

to observe. You are going to get local members of parliament and

:36:47.:36:50.

councillors and so on saying directly to their police

:36:50.:36:54.

commissioner why aren't they being more robust, it won't take the

:36:54.:36:57.

Prime Minister coming back from holiday. We already have an elected

:36:57.:37:02.

police commissioner, that's Boris Johnson, what he has done is to get

:37:03.:37:09.

rid of one commissioner, undermined the morale of the senior leadership

:37:09.:37:16.

of the force. Did Boris Johnson get rid of Paul Stevenson? He certainly

:37:16.:37:19.

withdrew support directly and publicly, including on the Today

:37:19.:37:25.

programme and without that support from the chairman - my point if I

:37:25.:37:28.

can finish is that at the end of the day you need police who have

:37:28.:37:32.

confidence and morale, not always being second-guessed on everything

:37:32.:37:37.

they do in relation to civil liberties and elected police

:37:37.:37:42.

commissioners will undermine the police directly. You also need 9

:37:42.:37:46.

public public to have -- the public toffs confidence in the police --

:37:46.:37:50.

public to have confidence in the police. They felt the police got

:37:50.:37:52.

that balance wrong. The Prime Minister was honest about that.

:37:52.:37:55.

Chief Constables have been frank about that. And that I hope will

:37:55.:38:01.

now change. But the Government did not come to power saying it would

:38:01.:38:04.

do any of this. This Government came to power, particularly the

:38:04.:38:09.

Conservative side of it, questioning the need for CCTV to be

:38:09.:38:13.

as extensive as it is, a hug a hoody speech where we must

:38:13.:38:18.

understand where these people come from, rather than condemn them and

:38:18.:38:22.

other civil liberty issues, which were top of Mr Cameron's agenda.

:38:22.:38:25.

Has that now changed. Let me take that head on. First of all the

:38:26.:38:28.

Government came to power saying we needed to free up the police to

:38:28.:38:31.

deal with this sort of stuff on the streets, that was the whole point

:38:31.:38:35.

of our police reforms to cut out the tasks being done in the back

:38:35.:38:39.

office, to make sure more people were freed up for visible frontline

:38:39.:38:43.

policing, to introduce the reforms which frankly they shied away from,

:38:43.:38:47.

we don't want to be too political today, but they shied away from in

:38:47.:38:51.

13 years, to free up officers to be deployed properly on the stroets

:38:51.:38:54.

and to introduce -- streets and to introduce much tougher sentencing

:38:54.:39:00.

powers which we are now doing. interesting, Nick, that the Prime

:39:00.:39:03.

Minister quoted the Acting head of the Metropolitan Police saying he

:39:03.:39:06.

would rather be the last man on the streets sort of thing before the

:39:06.:39:09.

Army could be brought in. I take that, I am interested to hear your

:39:09.:39:11.

view, that there's been a discussion about bringing in the

:39:11.:39:15.

Army and the Prime Minister is not ruling it out. It's clear he didn't

:39:15.:39:18.

rule it out. He seemed to say that they would play a limited role if

:39:18.:39:21.

they played any role, sort of guarding a particular building,

:39:21.:39:25.

allowing police to be on the frontline. I think policemen are

:39:25.:39:28.

nervous, politicians are nervous about the symbolism of having the

:39:28.:39:32.

Army take to the streets. I think I have my history right in saying the

:39:32.:39:36.

last time they took to the streets in the capital was 100 years ago,

:39:36.:39:43.

in order to deal with public order. Clearly, there... The Army was

:39:43.:39:51.

brought in to Heathrow. Not parts of London. 19 11-12 when there was

:39:51.:39:54.

industrial unrest at that time. There was unrest on - it's said

:39:55.:40:04.

that gentlemen left their clubs carrying pistols. I thought it was

:40:04.:40:07.

interesting today when both sides mentioned the issue of the use of

:40:07.:40:11.

the Army, there wasn't a great hysterical reaction. It may be

:40:11.:40:14.

there are some tasks they can do. That's a matter for the police and

:40:14.:40:20.

Government to decide. As you - there was a real surprise in the

:40:20.:40:23.

tone that people didn't raise these, but police cuts is clearly one

:40:23.:40:29.

issue. The Prime Minister also interestingly mentioned Bill

:40:29.:40:34.

Bratten who was chief of police in New York when Guilani became mayor

:40:34.:40:38.

of New York and between them they fell out quite quickly, between

:40:38.:40:42.

them introduced the zero tolerance approach to policing, which in New

:40:42.:40:49.

York has reduced crime to the lowest levels since records began.

:40:49.:40:54.

Is it your sense that the Prime Minister would like to consider Mr

:40:54.:40:58.

Bill Bratten becoming chief of the police? I doubt he wants him to be

:40:58.:41:01.

the chief, I think he does want to see the possibility of people

:41:01.:41:05.

brought from overseas to either advise or be assistant

:41:05.:41:08.

Commissioners in a way that's currently discouraged by police

:41:08.:41:12.

structures. Remember, that we heard this from the Prime Minister after

:41:12.:41:15.

the resignation of Paul Stevenson as head of the Met, he made it

:41:15.:41:19.

clear then he wanted to see a shake-up in the assumption that

:41:19.:41:22.

chief police officers had to start on the streets and work their way

:41:22.:41:25.

up gradually, that he wanted people recrueltied from outside. --

:41:25.:41:28.

recruited from outside. There's no doubt that people around the Prime

:41:28.:41:31.

Minister and the Prime Minister himself are pretty scathing about

:41:31.:41:34.

the quality of some of the Chief Constables and want to bring other

:41:34.:41:38.

people in. When I was Home Secretary I met Bill and talked to

:41:38.:41:42.

him, he is an interesting and inspirational police leader and

:41:42.:41:45.

would have a lot to recommend it. It was interesting the Prime

:41:45.:41:47.

Minister referred to that specifically in the context of gang

:41:47.:41:51.

crime and that was the one bit of news which emerged from what the

:41:51.:41:55.

Prime Minister said, of a focus on gang crime. He effectively declared

:41:55.:41:59.

war on the gangs. And he should and the fact is that the problem about

:41:59.:42:03.

gang crime is fighting gangs, it's almost entirely about intelligence

:42:03.:42:06.

and establishing intelligence about what the networks are, which

:42:06.:42:08.

immediately takes you to the civil liberties issues we were talking

:42:08.:42:12.

about. Interestingly, he raised the possibility of going to internet

:42:12.:42:17.

firms and saying social media should be stopped, blocked Facebook,

:42:17.:42:20.

Twitter, BlackBerry messages stopped during this sort of unrest

:42:20.:42:27.

which would be... A good way of reducing intelligence. He drew

:42:28.:42:33.

attention to Strathclyde. Charles will confirm there's no...

:42:33.:42:38.

really think Glasgow is a safe city, when were you last there. A few

:42:38.:42:42.

months ago. There's no legal bar on somebody coming in from abroad. We

:42:42.:42:44.

sent senior police officers to other police forces around the

:42:44.:42:49.

world and I think this is one of the kind of reforms we need to

:42:49.:42:51.

reinvigorate the leadership of some of our police forces. Let us bring

:42:52.:42:56.

us back to the social conditions from which a lot of these rioters

:42:56.:43:01.

emerge. We have had reports about a school assistant and a grammar

:43:01.:43:04.

schoolgirl and the rest of it, but it's pretty clear when you look

:43:05.:43:13.

it's a consequence of a biindication of our society, that

:43:13.:43:22.

the old working class - a chunk of the old working class slipped into

:43:22.:43:26.

an underclass which is different from a poor working class. Is our

:43:26.:43:31.

political system - are our politicians across this? Do they

:43:31.:43:35.

understand what's really going on? Let me ask you this, Tottenham at

:43:35.:43:39.

the height of the boom when there were jobs aplenty, the unphreuplt

:43:39.:43:46.

rate -- unemployment rate was 19%. Today, it's 20. I don't think

:43:46.:43:52.

anybody could argue 1% has the explanation from peace to war.

:43:52.:43:55.

agree completely. I would say the learning process began actually

:43:55.:43:57.

when you were talking about earlier, when you were reporting these

:43:57.:44:03.

matters 30 years ago. I think that was a total shock, the Brixton

:44:03.:44:08.

riots, and so on, was a total shock to the system. I think all

:44:08.:44:10.

politicians actually, Michael Heseltine did a great deal as

:44:10.:44:13.

Conservative politician at that time and I would say the Labour

:44:13.:44:17.

Government really tried to focus on these problems. But obviously we

:44:17.:44:21.

have not succeeded in certain respects, in particular we haven't

:44:21.:44:26.

succeeded at reaching those very, very small sections of the

:44:26.:44:29.

population who feel completely excluded from what's going on and

:44:30.:44:33.

what's important is to develop a society within which everybody

:44:33.:44:37.

feels they have a stake in society and what we have seen in the

:44:37.:44:41.

streets the last few days indicates we have failed. I can list a set of

:44:41.:44:44.

programmes Labour put forward which were attempted to try and do that I

:44:44.:44:48.

can also indicate certain failures where we didn't do it. What I think

:44:48.:44:52.

needs to happen now for this Government is to say what's this

:44:52.:44:55.

Government's analysis of your exact question, and what are the measures

:44:55.:44:58.

we are ready to go forward with or not? The controversies about things

:44:58.:45:02.

like education and maintenance allowances and so on is that we see

:45:02.:45:06.

those as important issues of trying to provide as spiration for those

:45:06.:45:13.

people which have been cut and this Would seem to be that the old

:45:13.:45:18.

working class had a lack of money and a lack of opportunity. If you

:45:18.:45:24.

gave them that they got on. This is a subset of society which seems to

:45:24.:45:31.

be beyond normal political policy, and beyond the ken, to use a good

:45:31.:45:36.

Scottish word, of the understanding of politicians. Have any three of

:45:36.:45:42.

you seen a BBC programme called The Scheme? I know of it. It is a BBC

:45:42.:45:45.

Scotland problem. Scheme in Scotland means council estate. This

:45:45.:45:49.

is set in a particularly difficult council estate. It's been shown on

:45:49.:45:54.

BBC One in England as well. I would love every politician in

:45:54.:45:58.

Westminster to watch this programme and then consider what they talk

:45:58.:46:01.

about, because often what you talk about has no relevance to what

:46:01.:46:06.

these people are going through. remember, Andrew, when you say,

:46:06.:46:10.

that and I don't mean this cynically, but as an observation of

:46:10.:46:14.

fact, those people tend not to vote, so politicians tend not to spend a

:46:14.:46:20.

lot of time trying to persuade them to vote for their party. As much as

:46:20.:46:26.

they do vote it is in areas of safe seats for the Labour Party, and

:46:26.:46:30.

there is not much focus on the two frontbenches which focuses on that

:46:30.:46:35.

group. Because the lives of those people have now affected the lives

:46:35.:46:39.

of everybody else, there may now be a demand from the population as a

:46:39.:46:42.

whole to sort the problem, where before people were quite happy to

:46:42.:46:48.

close their eyes and say, "It doesn't really affect me." The last

:46:48.:46:52.

Labour Government did try, they chucked a lot of money at the

:46:52.:46:55.

problem, but we still inherited this generation of youngsters who

:46:55.:46:58.

have time on their hands. The reason they've got time on their

:46:58.:47:02.

hands is because they are not skilled to get into the labour

:47:02.:47:05.

market. They are completely excluded from it. We do need to

:47:05.:47:08.

think again about the kind of skills they do need and the work

:47:08.:47:13.

ethic they need to get up in the morning and do a job. If you come

:47:13.:47:18.

to this country from Poland, Lithuania or New Zealand, you can

:47:18.:47:21.

get a job in London tonight. They don't have the skills to do that.

:47:21.:47:26.

Why is it that so many of these youngsters are unemployed, and yet

:47:26.:47:32.

under the Labour Government, 2.5 million new jobs created, 80-90% of

:47:32.:47:35.

those went to people outside the country who wanted to work, had the

:47:35.:47:39.

skills, would turn up in the morning, would work hard and want

:47:39.:47:43.

to get on? It is a complex, firstly the benefit system, everybody is

:47:44.:47:50.

right in saying it needs reforming. Secondly illegal migration. Thirdly,

:47:50.:47:53.

a question of the education and skills and the relationship between

:47:53.:47:58.

the world of education and the world of work, which remains

:47:58.:48:03.

extremely flawed, in my view. I do think, Michael, it is not

:48:03.:48:08.

principally the absince of skills that are involved in this rioting,

:48:08.:48:15.

but the commitment to society, commitment to the community, which

:48:15.:48:18.

is where we need to build things together. I'm going back to the

:48:18.:48:24.

debate in a second. Just a last thought. Ed Miliband did call for

:48:24.:48:29.

an inquiry, but it was pretty clear the Prime Minister doesn't want any

:48:29.:48:34.

such inquiry. That isn't what he said. He wants to wait for the Home

:48:34.:48:39.

Affairs Committee, which is about to announce. There are a lot of

:48:39.:48:43.

inquiries at the moment. You need an immediate inquiry into what

:48:44.:48:47.

happened on command and control from last Thursday to this Tuesday,

:48:47.:48:52.

something like that. And what orders were given. What decisions

:48:52.:48:56.

were taken? There'll be an inquiry into the death of Mark Duggan,

:48:56.:48:59.

carried out by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Then

:48:59.:49:02.

the Home Affairs Committee will carry out its work. The debate

:49:02.:49:05.

about the riots is continuing in the House of Commons. Let's look at

:49:05.:49:08.

more of the exchanges that are taking place in the past few

:49:08.:49:15.

minutes, starting with a question from a Labour MP, Diane Abbott.

:49:15.:49:21.

was on the streets of Hackney at the height of the rioting on Monday

:49:21.:49:28.

night. I know how frightened people are and remain. I believe the most

:49:28.:49:33.

important thing is to regain control of our streets. But on the

:49:33.:49:39.

question of the Army, let me say this to this House. I'm well aware

:49:39.:49:43.

how attract tiv further militarisation of this situation is

:49:43.:49:47.

to some members of this House, even to some of my own constituents. But

:49:47.:49:52.

let me say this, he will be aware that Sir Hugh Orde, who has ordered

:49:52.:49:56.

baton rounds and the use of water cannons in Northern Ireland, is

:49:56.:50:00.

against the use of these things in the current situation. I say to

:50:00.:50:06.

this House, whether it is a popular thing to say or not, the further

:50:06.:50:12.

militarisation of the situation we face will not help, and may bring

:50:12.:50:19.

things to an even worse level. First of all let me agree with what

:50:19.:50:24.

the Ron rabble lady said about the fact this was -- the honourable

:50:24.:50:28.

lady said about the criminality and how frightened people were. I agree

:50:28.:50:31.

with Sir Hugh Orde and others who said now is not the time to take

:50:31.:50:34.

these steps. Government has a responsibility to ask about con

:50:34.:50:41.

tinge sis to work out what next, what if it got worse? Let's take

:50:41.:50:44.

this opportunity to pay tribute to what the armed services do often do

:50:44.:50:48.

in our own country when it comes to floods and other emergencies. They

:50:48.:50:52.

play an incredible role and we should thank them for it.

:50:52.:50:55.

Speaker, would my right honourable friend agree that at a time like

:50:55.:51:00.

this and facing the circumstances that we face, it have a nonsense

:51:00.:51:03.

that magistrates have to refer cases to the Crown Court because

:51:03.:51:07.

their own sentencing powers are inadequate. Will he take immediate

:51:07.:51:12.

steps to give magistrates courts the powers to deal with these cases,

:51:12.:51:17.

so the perm traitors can be where they belong - behind bars? We keep

:51:17.:51:21.

sentencing powers under review. Magistrates courts can sentence up

:51:21.:51:24.

to six months. They've been passing sentences overnight and referring

:51:24.:51:28.

cases to Crown Court. It is vital we make sure that there is enough

:51:28.:51:33.

Crown Court capacity to deal with these cases quickly. Mr Speaker,

:51:33.:51:38.

can I beg the Prime Minister to change his mind about a Commission

:51:38.:51:43.

of Inquiry? This isn't going to go away. We could wish it to go away.

:51:43.:51:47.

This is a complex, changing social phenomenon we've got to understand

:51:47.:51:52.

in order to combat it. If he announced this week a Commission of

:51:52.:51:58.

Inquiry, really at the roots of this, I'm a great supporter of

:51:58.:52:03.

Select Committees, but it is not enough to leave it to a Select

:52:03.:52:06.

Committee inquiry. We need a national inquiry. I think we should

:52:06.:52:10.

have more confidence in our Select Committees in this House to do this

:52:10.:52:13.

work. I think the Home Affairs Select Committee does an excellent

:52:13.:52:16.

job. I don't rule these things out for the future. Let us start with

:52:16.:52:21.

that. Sometimes commissions of inquiry have had to be ordered

:52:21.:52:23.

because committees of this House haven't been able to get to the

:52:23.:52:28.

information or people. I don't sigh why this should be the case in this

:52:28.:52:31.

circumstances. Some cities have suffered hugely this week while

:52:32.:52:37.

others have avoided violence. And have managed to squash any

:52:37.:52:41.

potential trouble before it kicked off. When inquiries are established

:52:41.:52:45.

will the Prime Minister ensure that we learn lessons not only from

:52:45.:52:49.

those areas where violence was kicked off but from cities like

:52:49.:52:53.

Cardiff and Sheffield where there wasn't any trouble? Maybe we can

:52:53.:52:59.

learn lessons from what went right in those areas. She is right. Any

:52:59.:53:03.

inquiry should do that. Prime Minister, may I thank you for

:53:03.:53:10.

visiting Croydon earlier in the week, where you met our decent

:53:10.:53:14.

citizens who had become victims, their businesses burnted down and

:53:14.:53:18.

offices and shops trashed. The people in that Croydon war zone,

:53:18.:53:24.

that is what it was, were making the plea, where was the police? For

:53:25.:53:30.

hour after hour people were free to pillage and loot with no uniformed

:53:30.:53:36.

officer to help. On behalf of the people I met in the last two days,

:53:36.:53:39.

distraught and sad people, the people of Croydon North, the

:53:39.:53:43.

victims, may I plead with the Prime Minister on behalf of my

:53:43.:53:46.

constituents to think again about police numbers? The people of

:53:46.:53:50.

Croydon and people of London want more police in London and not fewer.

:53:50.:53:55.

Fewer would be precisely the wrong policy at precise through wrong

:53:55.:54:01.

time for our society? With the right honourable gentleman the time

:54:01.:54:06.

I spent in Croydon was incredibly powerful. To hear about the anger

:54:06.:54:10.

and frustration that shopkeepers and householders and tenants felt,

:54:10.:54:14.

but the problem was that the police weren't on the streets. The problem

:54:15.:54:18.

wasn't about police budgets in four years' time. The problem was about

:54:18.:54:22.

the availability of the police right now. There are 32,000

:54:22.:54:27.

officers in the Met. We needed to get more on the streets more

:54:27.:54:30.

quickly and more to Croydon. It is about now, not the budgets of the

:54:30.:54:33.

future. That was the Prime Minister. The

:54:33.:54:36.

exchanges are still going on in this special session of Parliament,

:54:36.:54:41.

recalled for the first time in many years back to an August session. We

:54:41.:54:46.

are coming to the end of our coverage here of this Daily

:54:46.:54:53.

Politics special of Parliament being reconvened to discuss the ry

:54:53.:54:57.

ots. Some final thoughts from our panel. Michael Fallon, Boris

:54:57.:55:04.

Johnson once dismissed the idea of a broken society as "piffle". Can

:55:04.:55:08.

there be any doubt in your mind that parts of our society are

:55:08.:55:12.

seriously broken? Absolutely not. I think if the last few days have

:55:12.:55:16.

shown us anything it is how right David Cameron was to address the

:55:16.:55:19.

problems of the broken society and say we need to think of better

:55:19.:55:23.

answers for it. We've inherited a generation of youngsters who have

:55:23.:55:27.

never been in work, don't have the skills to get into work and don't

:55:27.:55:31.

have the appetite to get into jobs. We need to tackle that.

:55:31.:55:35.

Metropolitan Police, as Home Secretary, you once had

:55:35.:55:40.

responsibility for them. They have had a bit of a battering, not just

:55:40.:55:45.

today or recent da days but over several years now. Where do we need

:55:45.:55:50.

to go to restore? We are used to this view of the police in this

:55:50.:55:54.

country were the interest integrated and most admire of any

:55:54.:55:57.

democratic society. It what be hard to argue that now. Where do they

:55:57.:56:02.

need to go? The first and most important thing is to appoint a new

:56:02.:56:05.

Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. For that person to be given

:56:05.:56:08.

support and confidence by the political environment. I mean the

:56:08.:56:11.

Mayor of London, the Government of London, the Government of the

:56:11.:56:16.

country, in carrying through what's needed. Secondly is a set of

:56:16.:56:20.

operational decisions that have to be taken about ensuring that the

:56:20.:56:24.

Met is more effective in certain respects. Some decisions were taken,

:56:24.:56:29.

to establish the borough commanders, neighbourhood policing, which is a

:56:29.:56:33.

big step forward from what it had been. But there still remain a

:56:33.:56:37.

series of reforms that need to take place. Thirdly, this question of

:56:37.:56:41.

gangs is much more serious than people think and require as very

:56:41.:56:45.

focused look by the police in conjunction, as the Prime Minister

:56:45.:56:51.

said, with other said. And yet it took a riot. We have done items on

:56:51.:56:56.

gangs. We've known about gangs. Our major cities are riddled with gangs.

:56:56.:57:00.

I don't it is right that took a riot. People haven't been able to

:57:00.:57:07.

get hold of these issues. Not easy to resolve. The question of the

:57:07.:57:12.

civil liberties environment within which the debate takes place. To

:57:12.:57:20.

the way the attitude of society is a major part of the turning point

:57:20.:57:25.

we may see today. The right would like a much tougher line than even

:57:25.:57:28.

the Prime Minister a outlining and those on the left, particularly on

:57:28.:57:32.

the Labour side, who would like more emphasis on, "It's the cuts,

:57:32.:57:37.

it is society, we are unequal" and the rest of it. We didn't hear from

:57:37.:57:41.

them. We will particularly at the party conferences. Remember, the

:57:41.:57:44.

moment at which our political leaders will have to try and, if

:57:45.:57:48.

you like, inject a political narrative into the story of the

:57:48.:57:52.

next week is in their party conference speeches. So we will see

:57:52.:57:55.

first from Nick Clegg, then Ed Miliband and David Cameron. They

:57:55.:57:58.

will come under enormous pressure from their own parties. David

:57:58.:58:02.

Cameron I believe at his conference will come under vast pressure about

:58:02.:58:06.

police numbers and resourcing, prison reforms and numbers, and to

:58:07.:58:10.

be tougher. The Ed Miliband will come under pressure to talk more

:58:10.:58:15.

ooct the cuts and the impact think have on communities. So how they

:58:15.:58:18.

find a way through will define what it means. That's all to come I'm

:58:19.:58:23.

afraid. The very to stop. That's it for today. We've run out of time.

:58:23.:58:27.

Thank you for joining us on this Daily Politics special here on BBC

:58:27.:58:32.

Two. Thanks to my guests, Charles Clarke, Michael Fallon, Sayeeda

:58:32.:58:35.

Warsi and Nick Robinson our political editor. We thank you for

:58:35.:58:39.

being with us on this August day. If you want to continue watching

:58:39.:58:42.

proceedings in the House of Commons switch over now to the BBC News

:58:42.:58:47.

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