05/09/2011 Daily Politics


05/09/2011

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You can tell a summer holiday is over, the sun is out. Parliament is

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Yes, welcome to this new season of the Daily Politics, which will take

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us through the party conferences and all the way up to Christmas.

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But you wonder if we should ever have been away! We've had riots in

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major English cities. Billions of pounds of damage caused. The

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prisons filling up with those arrested and convicted. The House

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of Commons was recalled and battle joined over how to react.

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causes are complex, simplistic solutions won't provide the answer.

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We've had revolution in Libya. What seemed stalemate in July looks like

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victory in September. It's not all over yet. But Gaddafi is beaten and

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in hiding, to the delight of both rebels and Western political

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leaders. The Libyan people have taken their

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country back. A cross Libya, millions are enjoying Eid for the

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first time free of a vicious dictatorship.

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Not only that we've had the mother of all phone hacking scandals,

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turmoil in the financial markets and slowdown in the economy. Which

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makes for a busy half hour! And with us for the whole programme

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today we have the Home Office Minister, Nick Herbert, for the

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Conservatives. Shadow Health Minister, Diane Abbott, for Labour.

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And the Deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats, Simon Hughes.

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So, first day back at school here at Westminster. But no time for

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sitting around and comparing tans and holiday snaps. It's straight

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back into the serious stuff of high-politics and low mud-slinging.

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Nick Clegg's been out already this morning. He was appearing with some

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school kids ahead of a speech insisting he'd never allow Free

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Schools to make a profit. Meanwhile, over in the Commons his

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backbenchers are grumbling again about the Government's NHS reforms.

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This is ahead of a big debate tomorrow. A meeting of the Lib Dem

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Parliamentary Party takes place a little later today which will

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decide just how many of them are prepared to back their own

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ministers. For Labour, tales of woe from Gordon Brown's Cabinet just

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keep on coming. According to the former Chancellor, Alistair Darling,

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there were bitter fights over economic policy. And of course

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there is the Prime Minister himself. He took the view I was being too

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cautious. Every Treasury in the world is cautious. He took the view

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it would be over in six months. took the view I have been

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exaggerating and was misled by the advice I received.

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David Cameron might have spent some of his summer holidays at the

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Highland Games in Braemar. But he, like the rest of us, is waiting to

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find out if the Conservative Party in Scotland decides to sever all

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ties with their past. And if it does, will anybody notice?

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Diane Abbott, you fought the last election led by a man who ran the

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Government like a Cavaldi, who tried to destroy his own Chancellor

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and he thought our economic problems would be all over in six

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months, did you know any of that? am one of the people who did not

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nominate him to be leader of the party. It might have been better to

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have a contested election. I am surprised at people like Alastair

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Darling, who did nominate him, now launching these attacks.

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happened on a Thursday night in this very studio. I seemed to

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remember some anticipation on your part as Mr Brown as the Great

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Leader? I am one of these optimistic people and I am sure

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that is why I am on the left in politics. If Gordon Brown was as

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terrible as all that, why didn't he do something at the time? The

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problem is with these newspaper serialisations, you make more money

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out of newspaper then you do selling the book. And to get it see

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realised you have to have these juicy bits. I will wait to read the

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book. But, the continuity in this, which is why it is not right to say,

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it is all history. Is a man at the centre of this, who shared Mr

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Brown's views on the deficit, as opposed to Mr Darling's is Mr Ed

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Balls who is the Shadow Chancellor? He is a great man and a grey shadow

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chancellor. Will he not cut the deficit as Mr Brown did? Not at all.

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They can be decided by the shadow cabinet as a whole on her by Ed

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Miliband. Can we just write that down? Simon Hughes, Nick Clegg

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talking about free schools this morning. Almost trying to be in

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opposition in Government at the same time. He will be saying they

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won't be allowed to make a profit, when has Michael Gove said they

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would be? I'm not sure he has, it was a Tory idea and not our idea

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and came into the coalition agreement from the Tory side.

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Clegg said it was in your manifesto? They are slightly

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different, I won't get into the technicalities but it was a bid

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from the Tory side of the coalition. We came to an agreement. Then there

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is a concern they were going to give them a special status and

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position and there was a risk they would take money from money that

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would be in the pot for local authority schools. What Nick Clegg

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was trying to do this morning was a lay some of the concerns of things

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that wouldn't happen. Is he worried about people like you and about

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people in the Lib Dem conference coming up. Because in your

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conference last year, live on the Daily Politics, your conference

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approved a motion urging people not to take up the free school option.

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Your party is against it? believe the best way is to have

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comprehensive education in a Democratic way. So you are against

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free schools? It has always been tension as to what you give people

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the freedom to create a school. That is why you can justify

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denominations schools. Whether that eats into the resources available.

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My judgment has always been we need to make sure they don't take

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resources that are available for schools. Are you for against free

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schools? I prefer local authority schools. So you are against them?

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I'm not against them... You won't be encouraging any to be formed in

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your neck of the woods? No, I won't. Nick Herbert, I know it is not your

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decision because you are an English Tory, but do you agree with the

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idea the Scottish Conservative Party should just abolish itself?

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think it is a reasonable debate to kick off. In the end it has to be a

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decision for because they have -- Scottish Conservative Party.

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tried to pre-empt that answer. is a perfectly reasonable debate to

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have. What the Scottish people want, I think it is a real choice and I

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think that if they are able to be given the choice in terms of the

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things we stand for, it is a possibility. You are Unionist?

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a Unionist, but I am happy for this debate to be had. The decision

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should rest with members... It is a good debate to have, we are having

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it, it is not your decision, but what is your opinion? My opinion is

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I am happy and proud to be a member of the Conservative Party which is

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a Unionist Party. But, equally in Northern Ireland for instance, we

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ran on a platform in the last election or where we had an

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association with members of another party. That is something that could

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be considered. Let's have the debate. Wouldn't it be seen as a

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cosmetic, rebranding exercise? is a thing we have got to decide.

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The person advocating this said it would be about a fundamental change.

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They have to have the debate and let it take place in Scotland and

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let the members of the party decide. He rebranded yourselves? You used

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to be the Tories' and then in 1834 U became the Conservatives. But we

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still call you the Tories? You do, and parties go through periods

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where they remain themselves but the core values survive of security

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and individual responsibility. Those will remain. Now there used

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to be a time we called the 'silly season' between the House of

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Commons going into recess in mid- July and the start of the Party

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Conference season in mid-September. Most August months are news-free

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zones. A barren month punctuated only by shots of fresh-faced

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teenagers celebrating their A level results and the latest parade of

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wannabes and D-list celebrities parading into the Big Brother House.

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But not this year! Here's David Thompson So the summer was blighted

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by riots across England, Parliament was recalled and no-one was talking

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This is the most humble they are my life. The ICA the fightback has

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begun, we will protect you. It might not have been a long hot,

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summer but it has not been dull. We have had riots, Libya and phone

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hacking and Parliament has been recalled not once, but technically

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twice. Testing time for politicians. How have Ed Miliband and David

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Cameron done? Does this summer give us any political clues about the

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summer ahead? England's troubles cities have given David Cameron a

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major challenge. Can he turn crisis into opportunity? David Cameron

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emerges from this with a chance to relaunch his premiership. We are

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about to discover whether he can use the riots and accommodation of

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the lift he will get out of his victory in Libya, will he use that

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as a chance to really give his Government a new mission this

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autumn? We will know the answer to that probably by the beginning or

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the middle of October. Given the correct response to the riot was

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vital for Ed Miliband, too. But did the phone hacking round give his

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leadership a makeover? Ed Miliband has had a good summer. He was

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convincing on the whole Rupert Murdoch scandal. Tying it into what

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many people regard as the corrosion of public life and on the riots, he

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didn't fall into the trap of being seen to equate it with the cuts all

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the great social discord. images which define the summer, but

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will they fade with time or help shape the party leaders?

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Miliband responded effectively to the phone hacking crisis and showed

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he had some steel and his party liked it. But he hasn't formulated

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a message of a kind which really seems to Connect in any meaningful

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way with the sort of voters he needs to stand a chance of winning

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the next election. That is what this autumn will be about for him,

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he has to put flesh on the bone. The greatest criticism within the

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Tory party and outside it and that of the David Cameron is he is not

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strongly right wing, people don't know what he is. He asked to define

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that this autumn. As normal service resumes in Westminster, the

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extraordinary events of recent weeks will fall into perspective.

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But now, this feels like a summer of change.

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The summer season was blighted by riots, Parliament was recalled and

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nobody was talking about hugging hoodies any more. On 10th August,

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David Cameron said, "There are pockets of our society that are not

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only broken, but frankly sick". The following week he vowed to tackle

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the "slow-motion moral collapse" affecting parts of the country. By

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contrast Labour leader, Ed Miliband, talked about a wider "crisis of

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values". In a speech on the 15th August he made a link between the

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values of the looters and those of the bankers. "Our whole country is

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held back by irresponsibility, wherever it is found". Deputy Prime

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Minister, Nick Clegg, attacked the "smash and grab" culture of those

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involved in the unrest. Although he did also say that the best response

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was to give people "opportunities to get ahead so they feel they have

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a stake in their own future". Diane Abbott, let me come to you

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first. Now it has died down a bit, we are standing back a bit. Did

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these riots have anything to do with coalition policy or not?

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practical terms, no, not least because the coalition policies have

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yet to feed to those on the ground, particularly the cuts. I never said

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the cuts caused the riots. But David Cameron and Nick Clegg have

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agreed an inquiry where they will go into communities and ask them

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what they think happened. So when Harriet Harman specifically linked

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the riots to the cuts in the educational maintenance allowance,

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that wasn't true? It is not a causal link, but there is no doubt

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cuts in education funding have affected communities and their

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perception of what opportunities there are for them. Nick Herbert,

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you are talking about taking �2 billion out of the police budget in

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the spending round and increasing the budget for international did

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allotment by �2 billion. How does It is exactly why our policy of

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free schools is designed to extend educational opportunities. In

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relation to police funding, we have to deal with the deficit, of a

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police can make their share of the savings. A report today has been

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produced by policy exchange, an independent think-tank, pointing

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out there are thousands of officers in backroom positions who Onuoha

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near the front line. We can make savings and still do that in a way

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that protects the visible and available policing. The Policy

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Exhange, you call it an independent think-tank, it is centre right.

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is a good report. The Inspectorate of Constabulary have said exactly

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that the same thing. They said there were 25,000 police officers

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in back and middle office positions, not on the front line. There is

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plenty of scope for savings if forces work more efficiently. Have

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I reject the idea that a cut in funding means there has to be a

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poorer service for the public. they are Johnson of London -- and

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Boris Johnson said the riots undermined the case for cutting

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police budgets, he was wrong? disagree. In London, he is

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increasing the numbers of officers from the level he inherited. It is

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not about that in London. He was talking about outside London.

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Meyers are bound to bid for... is the Mayor of London. He was

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talking about outside London. is not the time to think about

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making substantial cuts in police numbers, I am looking at the

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country as a whole, he said. He was talking about outside London. He

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said himself he had addressed the situation in London and he was

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increasing the numbers. Snares are bound to bid for more money. --

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Meyers. We have a deficit and we have to be -- deal with it. There

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is plenty of scope for saving. did it take a riot, or several

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riots, for you to decide you needed to do something about gangs? That

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is simply not the case. There has been ongoing work. The government's

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College and a set up by David Cameron in opposition when he

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talked about social responsibility and some of the social measures we

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need to take in terms of radical reform in both education, that

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Michael Gove was talking about last week, extending opportunity and

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improving discipline and opportunity, and Iain Duncan

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Smith's agenda of welfare reform, were set in train some time ago.

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Could they have been embraced under a coalition programme. We are

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embarked on an agenda that his social reform. Simon Hughes, you

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warned against knee-jerk policy responses, have you seen any?

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have seen the courts be tougher than normal. And I think some of

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those will have sentences which may be reduced on appeal. There should

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be an addition for taking part in a riot. Were these tough sentences

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knee-jerk? They were a response... A word a knee-jerk? They weren't a

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knee-jerk response, but they were a response that was a difficult one

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to judge. OK. I have seen a debate which I welcome about how we are

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more effective with our policing. I am very clear and I am a London MP,

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I don't think you need to see a reduction in police numbers if you

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see a reduction in budget. Brian Paddick said this morning that if

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you look, for example, at the extras that senior police officers

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in the net get, extra accommodation, chauffeur-driven cars, there are

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lots of things you can take out. I discovered, I didn't know this

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before, that most police officers in London are not allowed to go out

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and deal with public order offences because they are not trained to

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have body armour and helmets. That is ridiculous. All police on the

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streets ought to be on to deal with all situations. Wood cutting the

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welfare benefits of a family with a member involved in riots could be a

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knee-jerk response? I am not in favour of that. I have warned that

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kicking people out of public sector housing and taking benefits await

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seems the wrong response. Evicting a family from council property,

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which Southwark council has, that his knee-jerk? They haven't yet.

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They have talked about it. They want to do it. I will tell you why

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it is illogical. If you have two people who go into Argos to make

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staff and one happens to live in a council property and one is also

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living in private property, to distinguish between them is invalid.

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Younger siblings will suffer. On the question of sentencing, I would

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say this. The public would expect sentencing to be a little higher

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given the context and the system of appeals will help to deal with them.

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Will we see more riots? I hope not. I would add on sentencing,

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exemplary sentences are important and they have been set

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independently. I visited one of the courts. How can you support

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exemplary sentences, which is basically banging people up for a

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longer time than normal, how can you do that and cut prison funding?

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For the Prime Minister has been clear. There will be enough places

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provided to ensure the courts can give a prison sentence. There is a

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difference between cramming people in and giving them the sort of

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experience that might help to rehabilitate them. I would agree

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that up he might have space to cram them in. Are you prepared at more

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prison spaces? We will provide sufficient prison spaces.

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police could end up arresting 25,000 people and there might be a

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lot more convictions. You are prepared to add more prison places

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to accommodate these people? So far there have been over 2000 arrests

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and half of those have been charged. We can learn the lessons over house

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with just as was. That has not answered my question. Sufficient

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places will be available. Does that mean you are prepared to increase

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the prison population? The Prime Minister answered it, he said

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enough places will be available. I agree with Diane, it is not just

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about incarcerating people, it is also about reducing reoffending and

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breaking the cycle. Where will these extra prison places come

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from? We have been able to accommodate those that have been

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incarcerated in present by sentences in response to the riots.

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It is the government's responsibility to ensure there will

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be sufficient... Are you confident they are getting the education they

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would normally get? Are you confident they are getting the

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support they would normally get? is so important that we have a

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prison system that does work and works to reduce reoffending. 17% of

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those that have been charged in the riots have had previous convictions.

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-- 70%. We need to move on to Libya. Diane Garbutt, you described Libya

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in May as an elf entered intervention. -- Diane Abbott. It

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is not sustainable. Would you like to change your opinion? A lot of

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backbench MPs thought that. We were glad to vote for the original

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intervention because we thought we were protecting the people in the

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cities. You have been proved wrong by events. This is a bit like Iraq.

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There was a point when everyone was crying victory. Bush had this

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banner, mission accomplished. Let's not say mission accomplished yet.

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You also said, where advisers go, troops can be found behind. The

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British public will be wringing their hands tomorrow. Troops have

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and followed and I am glad of that. I think it is right that backbench

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MPs should express what a lot of the British public were thinking.

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It would have been very poor... Even if you were wrong.

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public's concerns are valid. Let me bring the one to another public

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concern. How ashamed are you to discover the incredible extent and

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complicity of the last Labour government with Colonel Gaddafi?

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Well... As you know there are a number of aspects of the last

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Labour government I was not absolutely thrilled was. Things

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will come out... Things have come out, how ashamed of you? The idea

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that our security services, under a Labour government, would be

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complicit in returning someone to Libya clearly to be tortured, and

:24:34.:24:43.

he was tortured, for three years. have always been against any breath

:24:43.:24:45.

of intimation that British government could be involved with

:24:45.:24:50.

torture. How about the Prime Minister helping side Gaddafi with

:24:50.:24:56.

his PhD thesis? Why was it necessary... I understood and the

:24:56.:25:01.

point that he wanted to change the trajectory that Libya was on, but

:25:01.:25:04.

it did not mean that Labour had to climb into bed with them.

:25:04.:25:09.

Parliament known, you can be assured parliamentarians on both

:25:09.:25:14.

sides would have expressed their concern about these things. In your

:25:14.:25:21.

view, what is worst of the Blair years, the way Mr Blair cosy up to

:25:21.:25:26.

Mr Gaddafi or Mr Blair becoming a godfather to one of Mr Murdoch's

:25:26.:25:32.

children? You are tempting me! In the long run, the fact that Tony

:25:32.:25:37.

Blair was godfather... It is a close call. Was it acceptable that

:25:37.:25:42.

MI6 helped Mr Gaddafi's forces with anti- Gaddafi rebels? I would not

:25:42.:25:48.

be able to comment on that allegation. Other than to say that

:25:48.:25:52.

clearly such matters are serious. The Prime Minister is making a

:25:52.:25:58.

statement to the House later and I understand he has suggested that

:25:58.:26:03.

this may be a proper matter for an inquiry. There is an existing

:26:03.:26:06.

inquiry, the gives an inquiry, and that could be extended to consider

:26:06.:26:09.

matters of such collusion and the British government must always

:26:09.:26:16.

stand against torture and improper behaviour. There must be a concern

:26:16.:26:19.

among MPs like yourself that this sort of thing isn't continuing

:26:19.:26:24.

elsewhere. Firstly, we should have gone into Libya to protect Libby --

:26:24.:26:29.

Libyan people. Secondly, I was very clear that it looked on the

:26:29.:26:33.

evidence as if there was illegal rendition in the last government.

:26:33.:26:37.

The gives an inquiry is the right place to start and it would be

:26:37.:26:40.

logical to get a High Court judge to look into this. But I do have

:26:40.:26:46.

the concern that there are other despotic regimes in North Africa

:26:46.:26:50.

and the Middle East. We must be very careful that our foreign

:26:50.:26:54.

policy does not continue to sustain them in the same way, including

:26:54.:26:57.

potentially detention of people in large numbers in Syria. My

:26:57.:27:02.

particular concern is the way we manage our arms trade. We have

:27:02.:27:07.

often made a lot of money out of selling arms to countries with

:27:07.:27:10.

regimes we should in no way be publicly supporting. I hope that

:27:10.:27:15.

will be a review. A on the economy, why it is the recovery worse than

:27:15.:27:21.

the recession? In what respect? Falling living standards,

:27:21.:27:26.

unemployment among young people, no sense of growth, growth is lower

:27:26.:27:30.

than it was a year ago. For most people the recovery is hurting more

:27:30.:27:36.

than the recession. Globally, we have seen the problems in the

:27:36.:27:40.

United States. We can't pretend we are insulated from that and

:27:40.:27:44.

insulated from things like rising commodity prices. But it is

:27:44.:27:48.

important that remain tame the course of getting hold of the

:27:48.:27:53.

deficit by doing that. We succeed in having market confidence in the

:27:53.:27:57.

economy. You have to do something about growth as well. For most

:27:57.:28:01.

damaging thing we could do in relation to growth would be to

:28:01.:28:08.

choke it off. By losing that confidence, taking the advice of Ed

:28:09.:28:13.

Balls and others who say we should increase spending at this time, we

:28:13.:28:16.

have seen the fact that a huge surge of spending in the US has not

:28:16.:28:21.

produced the growth they want. The important thing is to maintain that

:28:22.:28:26.

confidence, maintain our course. What spending would Labour make --

:28:26.:28:31.

spending cuts would lead to make to cut the deficit? But we have run

:28:31.:28:37.

out of Tarin! Don't say I am not good to you! -- we have run out of

:28:37.:28:40.

time. That's all for today, thanks to our

:28:40.:28:43.

guests. I'll be back tomorrow along with Jo Coburn for an extended

:28:43.:28:46.

programme. There's just too much politics to cram into half an hour.

:28:46.:28:49.

Not least Boris Johnson in front of one Select Committee talking about

:28:49.:28:52.

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