06/09/2011 Daily Politics


06/09/2011

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn discuss the day's parliamentary committee hearings with author and political commentator Frederick Forsyth and Labour MP Chris Bryant.


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- folks. Welcome to an hour-long special edition of the Daily

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Politics. Yes, there's just too much to into a piffling 30 minutes

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today. The rioters were a feral underclass, according to the

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justice secretary, Ken Clarke. Equally worrying, he said, was the

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instinctive criminal behaviour of random passers-by. Strong words. In

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the last hour, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has been telling

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parliament that what he thinks caused the August riots, and he's

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not a man to hold back, either. other big parliamentary story

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today: further inquiries into the News of the World and the phone

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hacking scandal. In the last Daily Politics special but one, we

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broadcast the evidence to parliament of Rupert Murdoch and

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his son, James. Today, the same select committee has been hearing

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from some of their former employees. Did the mur docks' evidence stack

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We will look back and ask what, if anything, the protesters achieved.

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That's coming up in the next half- hour. With us for the duration is

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Freddie Forsyth. Welcome back. Thank you. It's been too long.

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You're the inviter. I made that bit up! First, today,

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let's talk about Libya and the apparent extent of the links

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between Britain and Colonel Gaddafi's intelligence services.

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Some of it centres on a Libyan rebel commander - you've seen him

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on television recently - there he is. Evidence suggests that our MI6

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colludeed with the CIA in transporting him back to Libya in

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2004 where he was almost certainly tortured, because that's what they

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do, by the Gaddafi regime. David Cameron yesterday promised that the

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allegations would be investigated. There is indeed already a committee

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set up to do that under I think Lord Gibson. Freddie, I can

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understand the realpolitik of wanting to build better relation

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was Libya, particularly on within of we're going to get rid of their

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weapons of mass destruction, but does that mean that we have to hand

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over people to be tortured by them? I wouldn't have thought it did, no.

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What happened with Libya was bizarre, because this man Gaddafi

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has been, for 30 years at at least, a die-hard enemy of the West. One

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of his apes murdered PC Yvonne Fletcher; another one put the bomb

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on the Pan Am jet; he funded Baader-Meinhof for the Black

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September, and gave the IRA five ships of weapons, and we only got

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the fifth. This has been going on for 30 years. Then suddenly he

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decides to change, which is most unusual. Normally, dictators either

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fall or stay the way they were. They don't become better people.

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This one decides to reform. Bearing in mind he did at the time have a

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nuclear programme, which was well advanced, and he had, what do you

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call it, a gas warfare programme. Biological and - Chemical weapons -

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he had the lot. We cut with with deal with him. We had no choice but

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to do it saying if you dismantle the lot under our supervision, you

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can be readmitted into the community of nations, which he

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accepted, and, it all was dismantled under our supervision.

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So he didn't keep anything - co- operate keep anything back -

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because we were there. I understand the diplomacy that that involved.

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The thing that I don't understand is why didn't we, having done that,

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still sup with a pretty long spoon with him, but instead we're handing

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over people to be tortured. It seems from the evidence given. We

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have got Mr Blair helping Saif Gaddafi with his phd, we've got the

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second senior figure in MI6, a famous or Rabiest writing friendly

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letters to mousse Ka to Mousa Cousa. My father spent five years in the

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like that. Why are we now sending nice letters to them. What went

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wrong, I think, was that we accepted his expressed desire to

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reform; we supervised the dismantlement of most of his really

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nasty stuff, which was much, much more, and worse than Saddam Hussein

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ever had, who didn't seem to have anything at all anyway. Then

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someone at the top - I suspect Blair, personally, went over the

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top. Suddenly, he starts schmoozing, he wants to be best palls. There is

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no need to do that. You can accept the reformation of a tyrant, a

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dictator - he went on being a savage bustard internally, and

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still to treat him with frosty courtesy, nothing more. Why we had

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to go so far, I don't know. That was really bad form. Thank you,

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that was the point of my question, thank you. Finally on this, how

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badly does this damage our intelligence services to be seen to

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be in cahoots with people like Mous Kousa and the Libyan Gestapo -

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let's call it what they are. This begs a rather long lecture, but I'm

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not going to give it to you. Basically, the entire intelligence

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world out there beyond our shores is one ever-changing kaleidoscope,

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and most of those who participated in it, whether they're the Russians,

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the Chechens, or the dictators of the Arab world, the dictators of

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the black African world, are bustards, OK? And we have to deal

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with them as best we can. Sometimes they rise, sometimes they fall,

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sometimes they rarely convert, sometimes they are toppled,

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sometimes they're assassinated - not usually by us, the Israelis are

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rather good at that - we leave them to it. Klabation: yes. We have to

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collaborate. It's the only way. All our intelligence services have got

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one job, and that's one job, and that is to protect our country from

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its citizens and enemies whatever it takes. If they go to a minister

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- and you'll hear some ministers laying what they call moral law

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down - if they go to a minister and say this is going to happen, a

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major bomb has been planned for this country, what do we do? The

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answer would be "whatever it takes", and then the second sentence would

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be "but we didn't have this conversation," in other words - and

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there is nothing you can do about it, unless you want to say we butt

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out of it in which case there can probably be a 7/7 every six months.

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Is that what you want? No. It's not what we want. I remember Robin Cook

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talking about an ethical foreign policy. In a was way back at the

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beginning of Tony Blair's - learn quickly. There's no such

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thing. Two big developments today in the whole News of the World

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phone hacking scandal. Lord leave son is beginning the judicial

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inquiry into the whole matter. There is another development in the

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Commons too which we will come to in a minute. Ross Hawkins is there

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for us. Tell us what's happening at the Royal Courts of Justice. At the

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moment, those people who think they should have a special status in the

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inquiry, their lawyers are standing up and making the case. When you

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listen to them, you get a sense of just how big the range of people

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there are just waiting to try to explain what the press and the

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media did to them. There are lawyers in there representing over

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a hundred phone hacking victims, politicians like criticises Bryant,

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Tessa Jowell, Lord Prescott, Dennis McShane, representing people like

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Kate and Jerry McCann, even the son of Harold Shipman and Max Mosley,

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all very much wanting to have their say. The second point of what we

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heard today is the sheer size and scale of what this man has got to

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do. He's got an enormous amount to get through. He's going to start

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with sessions trying to learn about how the media works and what it

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does, including one behind closed doors - probably sensibly, Andrew -

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on how you intercept e-mails and phone calls. When is he going to

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finish this report, then? By 2020, do you think? He's got two stages

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to do it in. He's got a latter stage where after the police

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investigations, he will look at what happened in the News of the

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World. This one, the Prime Minister only gave him a year. If you look

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at his opening statement, he has said well, we will do our best to

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stick to that but we're not going to do that at all costs. He kept on

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he's got to look at: the relationship between the public and

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the press, between politicians and the press; regulation; the way the

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whole legal structure is set up. These are big, big questions with,

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on the one side, all sorts of special interest groups trying to

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stop change from happening, cluck the media, and, on the other side,

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a bunch of hurt, angry and upset victims. It is going to be quite a

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series of hearings and it is going to take some time. Because, if you

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want to know how to phone hack, you only have to read Piers Morgan's

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memoirs where he explains how - I'm not saying he did it - but he

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explains how to do it. I don't understand why that is in camera.

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Will anything else be in camera or will we get to see stuff being

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played out? He referred to learning sessions and seminars which all

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sounded terribly pleasant. Most of it will be exposed. He also

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referred to in that private session about e-mail interceptions. When

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you you speak to some people around this story, you think maybe there

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is technologically more than that than that old trick of trying to

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get in someone's voice mail which, as you say, has been fairly

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widelyert roed. This is a judge who takes a lot to learn before he

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takes a single bit of evidence and long before he reaches a single

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final public decision. Sounds like you'll be standing outside that

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building for quite a while in the weeks and months ahead! I would

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find the nearest coffee bar and open an account with them. Over

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there! Now, within the last hour, there

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have been developments in the other inquiry into what went on at the

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Murdoch newspapers, this one being carried out by the culture select

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committee. Last month, you may remember, we carried it live here

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on the Daily Politics in another special when Rupert and James

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Murdoch went went in front of the MPs. That was of course the foam

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pie incident and Mrs Murdoch becoming a heroine. Joe, who is in

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the spotlight today? The four people appearing may not have the

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star quality of Rupert and James Murdoch, or even Mrs Murdoch, but

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their evidence promised to be explosive. First up this morning

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was former legal adviser, Jonathan Chapman, and Daniel Cloke, who was

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News International's HR director. Following them was Colin Myler, and

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tomorrow kroepb, another legal adviser. One of the big issues for

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these two is a document which has been dubbed the "for Nev I am" e-

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mail, this not only implicates another journalist in the scandal,

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but it also contains detailed evidence of hacking at the paper.

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When asked if he was aware of the document in July, James Murdoch

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replied, "I was not aware of that at the time." In a joint statement,

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both Colin Myler and Tom kroepb dispute this claim. James Murdoch

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has since issued a statement saying he stands by his evidence. The

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committee are also expected to try to get to the bottom of both Rupert

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and James Murdoch's assertion that they believe phone hacking was

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limited to just one rowing reporter, because they were relying on a

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review of staff e-mails by the legal firm Harbottle and Lewis.

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However, Jonathan Chapman disputes this evidence as very misleading

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and said that inquiry had a very restricted remit. The law firm has

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also issued a statement saying the the scope of their inquiry was very

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specific. So what really went on at Britain's Sunday newspaper

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according to its executives? The committee starting off questioning

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the head of legal affairs Jonathan Chapman and the former head of

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resources at the company Daniel Cloke. Phillip Davies pressed them

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on the circumstances surrounding Clive good man who was jailed for

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phone hacking in 2007. Committed a criminal offence and bringing the

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company to shame, it seems the group HR director would have had no

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involvement at all in the decision to sack him or the decision to -

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can I just go back. It seems that, during his trial, when he was

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pleading guilty, he employed the services of John Kelsey-Fry to

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represent him in court, one of the most expensive lawyers in the

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country - if not the most expensive lawyer in the country - and it

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appears News International paid for his legal representation at that

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case. Who authorised News International to pay for Clive

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Goodman's legal costs at a trial when this is a chap pleading guilty

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to a criminal offence that's a summary dismissal and is bringing

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the company to shame? Who authorised that News International

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would pay his legal fees? I don't know. I think, Mr Davis, you'll

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have to ask Mr Kroepb that because it's a matter for the newspaper

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lawyer that. Even though the company were not obliged to do

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anything at all, in lieu of his previous work for the company, they

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would as a gesture of goodwill pay a year's salary to him which

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appeared to be in the region of �90,000. Who decided that that was

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a good course of action to pay him a year's salary based on the fact

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that he had committed a criminal offence? I think that is a a

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question you will have to ask Mr Hinton. Decisive said, I was not

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involved until the appeals pro-set. Mr Chapman, were you not involved

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at all? Mr Hinton asked me to help him with that letter, indicated he

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was going to pay 12 months' salary, and he said that he wanted to do it

:14:57.:15:01.

on compassionate grounds because of the family situation of Mr Goodman.

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That's all I can recall on that. It is a question for Mr Hinton.

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you not express any surprise that this was a strange resident for the

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company wanting to be set in to pay a year's salary for the committing

:15:14.:15:17.

of a criminal offence? It could be seen on the outside as a strange

:15:17.:15:21.

thing to do, but it was Mr Hinton's decision. Would it not seem a

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strange thing to you on the inside? I can see it - I can see both sides

:15:27.:15:30.

of it. I can see viewed externally, it looks strange, but I can also

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see that if you have someone who has got a hitherto unblemished

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record and they have family to throw them straight out with no

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financial support leaving the family is a tough thing to do, so I

:15:43.:15:46.

can do both sides. You didn't raise any objections to this as a

:15:46.:15:50.

strategy? Mr Hinton had decided to do it. According to James Murdoch,

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you two took the decision not to defend yourselves at a tribunal,

:15:55.:16:02.

but to pay off Clive Goodman not to the tune of �60,000, but to the

:16:02.:16:12.

tune of �140,000 plus �130,000 of costs. Now, if you had made the -

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�13,000 of costs. If you had made the decision and there was no basis

:16:15.:16:19.

for Clive Goodman's allegations, what on earth were you doing paying

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him a 40 �140,000 on top of the �90,000 he had already been given

:16:24.:16:28.

as a year's salary. May I answer that? Please do. We didn't take the

:16:28.:16:32.

decision. The decision was taken by Mr Hinton that it should be settled

:16:32.:16:36.

following our work on it, and recommendation having been told to

:16:36.:16:42.

try to get a reasonable settlementor him - settlement for

:16:42.:16:46.

him. Within the last few minutes, it has started hearing from the

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former News of the World editor Colin Myler and the paper's chief

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lawyer, Tom Crone. Can I start with asking you about what has become

:16:58.:17:02.

known as the "for Neville" e-mail which is essentially the same

:17:02.:17:07.

reason why we first wished to ask you to come since you made a

:17:07.:17:10.

statement following this committee's session with Rupert

:17:10.:17:15.

Murdoch and James Murdoch in which, essentially, you gave a different

:17:15.:17:22.

account of what had occurred. Can I first of all establish that both of

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you are certainly, in your mind, you told James Murdoch about that

:17:28.:17:33.

e-mail when you came to discuss the terms of the settlement with Gordon

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Taylor? I'm certain. You're certain. It was never referred to as a "for

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Neville" e-mail. That was quite significant. And me too. I'm as

:17:44.:17:51.

certain as I can be, yes. Perhaps I can just explore that. I think, Mr

:17:51.:17:55.

Cone, you essentially have said it was the sole reason for settling

:17:55.:18:02.

with Gordon Taylor? That's correct. So, in your mind, this changes the

:18:02.:18:06.

picture entirely. Until you were made aware of this e-mail, there

:18:06.:18:11.

wasn't reason to settle, and this "Right, everything is now different,

:18:11.:18:18.

we're going to have to settle"? that was the decision or the advice

:18:18.:18:23.

that was sort of formulated in consultation with the outside

:18:23.:18:30.

lawyers after sight of that e-mail transcript, yes. Well, Tom Crone

:18:30.:18:34.

there giving evidence. For the latest, our political correspondent

:18:34.:18:39.

Vicky Young joins us. What strikes us here is the evidence we've heard,

:18:39.:18:45.

this insistence from Tom Crone in Tom Myler, the former editor, that

:18:45.:18:49.

James Murdoch seemed to indicate that phone hacking was more

:18:49.:18:53.

widespread than they initially thought. As you say, this is still

:18:53.:18:57.

going on. Tom Cone has talked more about that e-mail. He said he did

:18:57.:19:00.

have a conversation with James Murdoch about it which he said

:19:00.:19:04.

lasted for 50 minutes; he he said there were no notes made about it,

:19:04.:19:09.

and he can't recall all the details. He twhas then pushed further and

:19:09.:19:13.

asked "Did James Murdoch show you a copy of that e-mail?" He said,

:19:13.:19:18.

"I've been reminded recently it had very restricted access." He was

:19:18.:19:23.

told he was not allowed to make copies of it - this was by Gordon

:19:23.:19:27.

Taylor's lawyers who said they wanted it to have restricted access

:19:27.:19:32.

- and he was limited what he could Murdoch is ever called to this

:19:32.:19:35.

committee, because it's clear the committee felt they haven't got to

:19:35.:19:38.

the bottom of this, and that is a possibility of course. Then he will

:19:38.:19:41.

have that defence that he didn't see the e-mail itself although he

:19:41.:19:44.

was made aware of it. I think we've seen today in past committees, a

:19:45.:19:49.

lot of people saying, "I don't recall this." It struck me clearly

:19:49.:19:54.

you've got a bank of lawyers sitting behind the lawyers, saying,

:19:54.:19:57.

"I haven't got any notes" and able to say I can't recall the details

:19:57.:20:00.

of one thing or another. I don't think the committee will be happy

:20:00.:20:04.

with some of the answers they've been getting.

:20:04.:20:09.

He's now the former News of the World political editor David

:20:09.:20:14.

Wooding and criticises Bryant was - Chris Bryant a victim of is phone

:20:14.:20:18.

hacking. Chris Bryant, I suggest to you given the testimony we've just

:20:18.:20:21.

heard there which directly contradicts the testimony that

:20:21.:20:24.

James Murdoch gave to the same select committee in July that there

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is no doubt that James Murdoch will be recalled. I would be amazed if

:20:29.:20:31.

he's not recalled. I think one of the problems that we faced in this

:20:31.:20:33.

whole process is there was the original criminality which was

:20:33.:20:36.

scandalous enough, but then on top of that, there's been this

:20:36.:20:41.

sustained cover-up. It's gone on and on and on, and anybody knows

:20:41.:20:44.

that once you're found out, the first thing to do is to put your

:20:44.:20:48.

hands up and get all the facts out there, tell the truth. That's not

:20:48.:20:50.

what has happened. I think parliament needs to learn a 11.

:20:50.:20:53.

I've been going through all the evidence that people have given.

:20:53.:20:58.

I'm up to 53 lies to parliament to parliament so far - direct lies,

:20:58.:21:04.

not just casual evasions. You mean by Murdoch organisation people?

:21:05.:21:09.

News International, by police, by a variety of different people.

:21:09.:21:13.

Four more, and you'll have 57 varieties. I think I might get up

:21:13.:21:22.

to 77 trombones or is it 76! The point is of course the courts can't

:21:22.:21:25.

deal with that as perjury because of parliamentary privilege. If we

:21:25.:21:31.

are to deal with the powers in the land, whether that is Murdoch or

:21:31.:21:35.

Tesco, or BP or whoever else, we need to know that the evidence that

:21:35.:21:37.

is being given to parliament is true and honest, the whole truth

:21:37.:21:41.

and nothing but the truth. As they do in major congressional

:21:41.:21:46.

committees on Capitol Hill. Indeed, and I think we should move to a

:21:46.:21:49.

system where we have all evidence being given on oath. They can't lie

:21:49.:21:56.

to Lord Leveson, can they? Exactly. That's why, when you see the

:21:56.:22:01.

Murdochs giving evidence on oath and being probed I think very, very

:22:01.:22:04.

carefully, and for that matter when the police complete their

:22:04.:22:06.

investigations, I think we'll see that we're still only at act three

:22:06.:22:13.

in a five-act play. Are we seeing a cover-up unravelling here in that

:22:13.:22:20.

the News International used to form a pretty solid united phalanx on

:22:20.:22:25.

most issues. It was more united on the invasion of Iraq Iraq than the

:22:25.:22:29.

Blair or Bush governments, for example. Now they seem to be more

:22:29.:22:33.

like a circular firing squad. Is that what we're seeing? We had

:22:33.:22:38.

James Murdoch saying, "I did not see this crucial e-mail", the

:22:38.:22:44.

crucial mart of it would have expanded it, and former employees

:22:45.:22:48.

saying, "We told him about it." What has been clear this morning,

:22:48.:22:53.

and I will try not to add to Chris's tally in your answers to

:22:53.:22:58.

your questions today, is that this investigation they had we heard

:22:58.:23:00.

this morning from the human resources directorate and the legal

:23:00.:23:05.

manager, that it wasn't quite as thorough as we thought it would be.

:23:05.:23:10.

The question we're asking now was it covered up or was it just not

:23:10.:23:14.

unearthed because they didn't do a proper inquiry? It's going to be

:23:14.:23:17.

one or the other. The senior people at News International pretended

:23:17.:23:23.

that inquiry into the 2,500 e-mails had given News International help.

:23:23.:23:27.

That's completely and utterly untrue. The other thing is that

:23:27.:23:32.

when James Murdoch said they had to pay Gordon Taylor �700,000 because

:23:32.:23:37.

the lawyers had told them they would have to pay �100,000 if it

:23:37.:23:41.

went to court and then you would have to add on all the legal fees,

:23:41.:23:45.

that's not how it works. They're either stupid or got really, really

:23:45.:23:49.

bad lawyers or just just lying. In truth, they were trying to buy his

:23:49.:23:52.

silence. You see, that is one conclusion that you can take from

:23:52.:23:55.

this morning's hearings. The question was asked was Clive

:23:55.:24:00.

Goodman who was the Royal correspondent went to jail for

:24:00.:24:05.

criminal behaviour in the employ of News of the World. Why, given that

:24:05.:24:09.

he went to jail, and they are all contracts, if you bring this

:24:09.:24:13.

company into disrepute, you're subject to summary dismissal - why

:24:13.:24:17.

did he have to be paid anything? That was quite shocking this

:24:17.:24:23.

morning that he was paid nearly �250,000, a year's salary twice. I

:24:23.:24:26.

think some of the 280 people who lost their jobs, many of them, the

:24:26.:24:29.

vast imagine order of them innocent, who had nothing to do with any of

:24:29.:24:33.

this, will be wondering why this man is getting such a large amount.

:24:33.:24:36.

So what is the answer other than a cover-up? I do understand, I do

:24:36.:24:43.

take the point that was made this morning that a company tries to aan

:24:43.:24:48.

industrial tribunal if it can. if you're dealing with an employer

:24:48.:24:52.

who's been stuck in the slammer for four months. They said they didn't

:24:52.:24:56.

want to go to a an industrial tribunal was because they didn't

:24:56.:24:59.

want it to go to the public. That's backfired completely. Did you know

:24:59.:25:03.

that the phone hacking was widespread? No, I've never hacked a

:25:03.:25:09.

phone in my life. You knew something was going on? We knew

:25:09.:25:12.

something was going on because two people were jailed five years ago

:25:12.:25:16.

and then it was talked about some people were doing it. We didn't

:25:16.:25:21.

have an idea it was as widespread as - You thought it was more

:25:21.:25:23.

widespread than a rowing reporter in We thought some people were

:25:23.:25:27.

doing it into celebrities once or twice, that's all. You think, I'm

:25:27.:25:31.

told, by our team of researchers, that this is Much Ado About Nothing.

:25:31.:25:38.

I do. Why is that? Minority view. Not for the first time in my life!

:25:38.:25:43.

Well, firstly, two adjectives: one is surprising, one is shocking. No,

:25:43.:25:47.

it's not surprising, as far as I'm concerned. Call it hacking, but

:25:47.:25:50.

it's actually evesdropping. It has been going on sips the Old

:25:50.:25:57.

Testament. It was going on in the days of Sir Francis Walsingham, and

:25:57.:26:04.

when we were young, it was called bugging. In the Old Testament, the

:26:04.:26:10.

story of Hannah in the elders, that's evesdropping and the elders

:26:10.:26:14.

got it in the neck. I'm sure people will get it in the neck here. The

:26:14.:26:17.

other thing -. It's not surprising. We're on the word surprising. There

:26:17.:26:20.

is nothing surprising about people listening to other people's

:26:20.:26:23.

conversations. But it is illegal, is it not? Yes, of course it is.

:26:23.:26:30.

What is surprising to me is that anybody should be so naive, so

:26:30.:26:35.

gullible, so irretrieveably thick to think that an e-mail is a

:26:35.:26:38.

confidential document. I think Freddie's view is a record by the

:26:39.:26:43.

wider public. I would take it most people didn't care about this until

:26:43.:26:48.

the Milly Dowleer revelation, then it was a game change. What do you

:26:48.:26:55.

say - They didn't give a dam until it came out with Milly Dowler,

:26:55.:27:01.

listening to the relatives of Helmand, and the relatives of the

:27:01.:27:06.

girls in Soham. I think that's true. One element of it that is been

:27:06.:27:08.

profoundly damaging to British society is the involvement of the

:27:09.:27:11.

Metropolitan Police and their failure to investigate for whatever

:27:11.:27:14.

reasons, whether that is collusion or just laziness or incompetence,

:27:14.:27:18.

or whatever, but their systematic lies to parliament as well I think

:27:18.:27:23.

are problematic, and for my constituents the problem is about

:27:23.:27:26.

Murdoch owning TV. Do you think people listening toe phone

:27:26.:27:30.

conversations has never happened before in this country? It's been

:27:30.:27:32.

going on for decades. That doesn't make it a good and right thing.

:27:33.:27:38.

Part of the problem is actually not so much obviously the original act

:27:38.:27:41.

had become illegal, but they've got themselves into a real mess because

:27:42.:27:45.

of the cover-up. Of course, as usual. It's a Watergate situation.

:27:45.:27:50.

It's what happened with nickson. think the maximum you can get for

:27:50.:27:54.

hacking is two years. The The maximum you can get for perverting

:27:54.:27:57.

the course of justice is ten. That's the territory we're now in.

:27:57.:28:02.

Let me ask you this question we're now in. A lot of it has been put on

:28:02.:28:07.

this "for Neville" e-mail because it's meant to show that glen mull

:28:07.:28:14.

care, the private - Glen Mucrare was hacking for more than Clive

:28:14.:28:18.

Goodman. Given this refers to a case involving Mr Taylor who was

:28:18.:28:20.

the head of the professional footballers' association or

:28:20.:28:23.

something like that, why would anybody think that Clive Goodman

:28:23.:28:27.

who want to hack his phone in the first place? This was a point that

:28:27.:28:31.

was made systematically and regularly but nonetheless News

:28:31.:28:34.

International came back time and again there is one rowing reporter.

:28:34.:28:37.

I've got 32 instances of them relying on that. They knew,

:28:37.:28:43.

including James Murdoch, knew that that was not true. Gentlemen, thank

:28:43.:28:49.

you for that. I would like to point out, as far as we're concerned, our

:28:49.:28:52.

family think we are slim, young and irresistable!

:28:52.:29:00.

Before we came on air, we had the former MP for Luton South. She is

:29:00.:29:06.

called Margaret Moran, who will face charges to her expenses claim.

:29:06.:29:13.

She will face 21 charges. Our correspondent Robin Brant joins us.

:29:13.:29:18.

Remind us what has happened now. Margtd jirbgts moran who is no

:29:18.:29:26.

longer an MP, is facing a whopping 21 charges twice as many as other

:29:26.:29:32.

suspects others have faced. They are charges of theft and forgery.

:29:32.:29:34.

It's the forgery that will be looked upon by the court as far

:29:34.:29:39.

more serious. This is a relation between a a period between November

:29:39.:29:43.

2004 and November 2008 when it is alleged that the Labour MP as she

:29:43.:29:47.

was at the time made a series of claims for expenses relating to

:29:47.:29:51.

�60,000, �20,000 for that for dry rot in a property in Southampton.

:29:51.:29:55.

That property a hundred miles or so from her Lieutenant son South

:29:55.:29:58.

constituency, claims also relating to other properties in Luton and

:29:58.:30:03.

London, so, in total, claims for �60,000 over a four-year period,

:30:03.:30:10.

and 21 charges in all, so she's in court on 19 cement, and as I said I

:30:10.:30:14.

think it's the forgery accusation that could be most serious for

:30:14.:30:17.

Margaret Moran if found true because she could find herself in

:30:17.:30:21.

jail for several years over that. She has now been charged. I think

:30:21.:30:25.

it's probably legally wise that we leave it there.

:30:25.:30:28.

The other committee, the home affairs select committee, has also

:30:28.:30:32.

been holding a hearing this morning, and they've been looking at the

:30:32.:30:37.

summer riots. No doubt they'll be aware of the justice secretary Ken

:30:37.:30:41.

Clarke's comments in the Guardian. Mr Clarke argues what he calls the

:30:41.:30:44.

appalling social deficit as well as the financial deficit should be

:30:45.:30:47.

addressed, saying a rocket booster needs to be put on to plans to fix

:30:47.:30:51.

not just the criminal justice system but education, welfare, and

:30:51.:30:54.

family policy. The justice secretary adds that the

:30:54.:30:57.

hard-core of the rioters were in fact known criminals, and claims

:30:57.:31:01.

that is the legacy of a broken penal system. Mr Clarke writes that

:31:01.:31:06.

as well as the need for tough sentencing, more must be done to

:31:06.:31:11.

reduce reoffending, and calls for the paying of those who

:31:11.:31:15.

rehabilitate offenders by the results they achieve. The home

:31:15.:31:17.

affairs committee has been hearing evidence for much of this morning

:31:17.:31:20.

from both senior police officers and senior London politicians.

:31:20.:31:25.

Starting with the Mayor of London himself. I think he's called Boris

:31:25.:31:35.
:31:35.:31:36.

Johnson. I think, obviously, with Twenty20 hind - 2020 hindsight, and

:31:36.:31:39.

you'll have your opportunity in a minute to talk to the commissioner

:31:39.:31:43.

on the night - people think it might have been wiser to upscale

:31:43.:31:47.

the police presence. This is the Prime Minister. When you look

:31:47.:31:50.

overall at the police which is what you want to get out of us, when you

:31:50.:31:53.

look at what the police did on that night, on successive nights, and

:31:53.:31:57.

what they're doing now in their detect work, which is - detective

:31:57.:32:04.

work, which is quite remarkable, arrested 288 people, and be in no

:32:04.:32:08.

doubt, more and more people will be arrested and charged. The CCTV is

:32:08.:32:11.

still being gone through. They're doing an exceptional process. And,

:32:11.:32:16.

in spite of everything, these riots were contained, there was the very

:32:16.:32:21.

tragic death of Mr Boews in Ealing, but otherwise, there were

:32:21.:32:28.

remarkably few casualties. I just remind the committee that - We will

:32:28.:32:31.

come on to all this detail. people of London, my impression,

:32:31.:32:34.

they have the the very strong support and respect for the way the

:32:34.:32:39.

police were able to handle these riots. The issue for this this

:32:39.:32:41.

committee is do you agree with the Prime Minister in his statement to

:32:41.:32:45.

parliament when parliament was recalled that the tactics were not

:32:45.:32:49.

working, and too few police officers were deployed? Do you

:32:49.:32:57.

agree with him or not? It is self- evident, Mr Vaz, that there was a

:32:57.:33:01.

difficulty, there was a crisis on the Saturday, then the Sunday, then

:33:01.:33:05.

the Monday, which caught everybody unawares, and there is no doubt

:33:05.:33:10.

about that. I think when people come to aopblise this event, they

:33:10.:33:15.

will want to pay particular attention to the role of social

:33:15.:33:20.

media, the black berry messaging, all of that, and how that allowed

:33:20.:33:24.

the dispersal of this disorder. That's from Boris Johnson. Next up,

:33:24.:33:34.
:33:34.:33:36.

it was the turn of the acting Met commissioner, Tim Godwin. He asked

:33:36.:33:43.

how the death of Mark Duggan started the riots. It's one of the

:33:43.:33:47.

things we're looking into now in terms of what actually went on.

:33:47.:33:51.

There was some confusion in terms of who was going to tell Mr

:33:51.:33:54.

Duggan's family, and that we deeply regret, and our commander has been

:33:54.:33:59.

round to see the family to actually apologise for those errors, albeit

:33:59.:34:03.

I can understand why those errors occurred, but they were errors I've

:34:03.:34:07.

apologised for. I think one of the things we need to look at is the

:34:07.:34:11.

whole whole management that took place at Tottenham so that we can

:34:11.:34:15.

learn from it. I think there were some good decisions taken, and

:34:15.:34:18.

additionally, there were some misunderstandings. We need to get

:34:18.:34:24.

to the bottom of that. Lynn Owens sitting next to me has been tasked

:34:24.:34:30.

by me to pick up those issues, causeiality, et cetera, and those

:34:30.:34:33.

conclusions, and this is so important, and we want to be

:34:33.:34:38.

transparent, those conclusions will be shared with this committee.

:34:38.:34:46.

Nothing possibly can justify what occurred with the looting and the

:34:46.:34:50.

rioting - certainly not myself in any way is trying to find some

:34:50.:34:58.

justification. But coming to the actual event that some considered

:34:58.:35:02.

triggered off, we read in the past that the partner of Mark Duggan

:35:02.:35:06.

went to the police station waiting hours before any information was

:35:06.:35:09.

given, and even then, she considered it unsatisfactory. I'm

:35:09.:35:16.

just wondering how far you as the most senior person, the most senior

:35:16.:35:20.

officer of the Met looked into this? We've got, as I say, the

:35:20.:35:24.

review going through in terms of what went on at Tottenham during

:35:24.:35:31.

that period following the death of Mark Duggan, and it is fair to say,

:35:31.:35:36.

as in all investigations, there are different views and interpretations

:35:36.:35:41.

of what and wasn't said and we need to get to the bottom of that. There

:35:41.:35:49.

is an issue for us how we look at and relate with the IPPC. That is

:35:49.:35:51.

the learning that will come out of this. That is a critical one we

:35:51.:35:55.

have to get done speedily so we can make sure we don't make those

:35:55.:36:01.

mistakes again. Can I ask you about techniques used by the police in

:36:01.:36:04.

dealing with the disturbances. Are there any lessons to be learned? Do

:36:04.:36:09.

you feel other techniques could have been used initially which

:36:09.:36:13.

could have helped the situation to restore order? I think the - again,

:36:13.:36:17.

that's part of our review process. One of the things that impressed me

:36:17.:36:21.

was the use of vehicle-borne tactics in terms of moving people

:36:21.:36:27.

forward and keeping cordons. I think for us initially, though, we

:36:27.:36:31.

had a fuel ring of tactics that we could deploy. It was purely numbers

:36:31.:36:37.

that was the inhibitor, so we got to look at that. The point about

:36:37.:36:41.

"where are all the cops?" Is an issue we're going to be addressing

:36:41.:36:44.

in the next few months in terms of maximising our footprint and

:36:44.:36:48.

getting the numbers out there. I think there are a number of the

:36:48.:36:52.

levels we've got that are public- order trained. All of that of

:36:53.:36:57.

course has a cost. We're joined now by Conservative MP David Davis, the

:36:57.:37:00.

Labour MP David Lammy, whose Tottenham constituency was blighted

:37:00.:37:06.

by the riots. David Davis, David Cameron characterised the riots as

:37:06.:37:09.

criminality pure and simple. Do you agree with that? Yes, I do, really.

:37:09.:37:16.

What was clear, certainly by day two - not on day one - was these

:37:16.:37:18.

riots were occurring where there was a lot of gang activity in

:37:18.:37:21.

London, a lot of basic criminality there, and then from that you had a

:37:21.:37:25.

sweep of all sorts of - - suite of all sorts of people getting

:37:25.:37:33.

involved, and we heard today 75% of people they've taken on board so

:37:33.:37:36.

far have previous criminal records. David Lammy, does that surprise

:37:36.:37:40.

you? Three-quarters of those aged 18 or over charged with rioting

:37:40.:37:44.

offences already had a prior conviction. On the gang-related bit,

:37:44.:37:48.

they said it was 19%, perhaps not as high. It's difficult to get the

:37:48.:37:50.

figures completely straight but those initial figures are three-

:37:50.:37:53.

quarters of those who already have prior convictions. Pretty shocking,

:37:53.:37:56.

isn't it? It was clear on the Saturday night when things started

:37:56.:38:02.

in Tottenham that half of those who were caught up in this were not

:38:02.:38:06.

from Tottenham, and I said that on Sunday morning. I think the second

:38:06.:38:09.

thing was this rioting went on throughout the night. Many people

:38:09.:38:12.

stayed up watching the images well into the early hours. You then had

:38:12.:38:16.

looting in another part of London, in Wood Green, with no police there

:38:16.:38:21.

at all. It was a red rag to any criminal in and across London to

:38:21.:38:25.

arrive and to cause criminal damage and to take goods away. So it's not

:38:25.:38:29.

surprising, of course, that criminals were caught up in this.

:38:29.:38:34.

You do point the finger at the police. Tim Godwin was asked could

:38:34.:38:39.

the police have shut it down in Tottenham? He said, "I don't know,

:38:39.:38:42.

I'll have to look at all the evidence." I was with the victims,

:38:42.:38:46.

the homeless people who have lost everything they own. They said

:38:46.:38:49.

standing around their flats, where were the police? Where were the

:38:49.:38:53.

fire? Why were they down the road outside the police station not

:38:53.:38:56.

supporting my my flat? Why did I have to set the alarm to get out of

:38:56.:39:01.

my building? There was and has been another point of view presented

:39:01.:39:05.

which is actually if they had gone in in a hard, tough way in

:39:05.:39:08.

Tottenham, it could have made it worse, but it could have been more

:39:08.:39:13.

or looting or "going shopping" it could have been really violent.

:39:13.:39:17.

can understand that fear after the Mark Duggan episode and the fear

:39:17.:39:22.

that would cause some Brixton-type riot, but I don't think that excuse

:39:22.:39:25.

applies to anything that happened later. The next day, we had riots

:39:25.:39:28.

pretty much all over London. There was no excuse whatsoever. There was

:39:28.:39:35.

some excuse on the first day. None by day two. Ken Clarke used pretty

:39:36.:39:39.

strident language for Ken Clarke. He talked about the appalling

:39:39.:39:42.

social deficit. Which do you think the government should concentrate

:39:42.:39:46.

on? Stopping people reoffending on the criminal side of it, or the

:39:46.:39:49.

social side? You can't do one or other. You've got to do both,

:39:49.:39:55.

actually. Ken and I don't agree on prison policy. Surprise, surprise!

:39:55.:39:59.

And I think we should have more people in prison I'm afraid.

:39:59.:40:03.

Prisons have gone off the rails in the last ten years with very, very

:40:03.:40:05.

high reoffending rates. It wasn't always so. You've got to put that

:40:05.:40:08.

right. You've got to do something about that, but you've also got to

:40:08.:40:13.

deal with the gangs. The 19% number shows what the police don't know e

:40:13.:40:16.

there are a lot of areas, estates around London, some in Tottenham,

:40:16.:40:20.

some in Hackney, some in Brixton, where the gangs rule, and where

:40:20.:40:25.

youngsters growing up have no choice. They're forced into and

:40:25.:40:28.

become reluctant gangsters, if you like,. How do you see it in those

:40:28.:40:31.

terms that actually we have this gang culture that's grown up, they

:40:31.:40:36.

took an an opportunity and this is what what occurred. I think that is

:40:36.:40:41.

self-evident. What surprised me was the speed of the conteenage young.

:40:41.:40:45.

99.9% of people had never heard of Mark Duggan, that he didn't know

:40:45.:40:49.

who he was, whether he threatened to pull a gun on the police, they

:40:49.:40:52.

might have heard he was dead, but that wasn't the concern at all. It

:40:52.:40:57.

spread to the Midlands and then north of England. We have had riots

:40:57.:41:01.

before: Toxteth, Brixton, Broadwater Farm, but never sort of

:41:01.:41:05.

suddenly bursting out in Manchester or Birmingham, or Nottingham. Again,

:41:05.:41:12.

the one - the new factor which we've touched on already in another

:41:12.:41:17.

subject: cyberspace. They're able to see it all on this gizmo they

:41:17.:41:20.

carry. Yes, it's contagious. can't pull that back. People have

:41:20.:41:25.

argued what what can you do about social media. Can something be

:41:25.:41:28.

done? I don't know the technology well enough whether you can close

:41:28.:41:34.

it down? You can't. It's there. It's oddly enough also fuelling the

:41:34.:41:39.

Arab spring, actually. All it's done is accelerate what happened

:41:39.:41:44.

before. In the mid-1980s, not the first riots, but in the made 1980s

:41:44.:41:49.

Brixton riots, there were two phases where it was a demonstration,

:41:49.:41:54.

and the second phase it was straightforwardly criminal, people

:41:54.:42:00.

selecting shops and helping themselves, and planning to do so.

:42:00.:42:05.

There's People looking ahead and forward as to what actually can be

:42:05.:42:07.

done. The police have said one of the questions that's got to be

:42:07.:42:12.

raised is where are all the cops? There a view about where they're

:42:12.:42:15.

deployed, how many are deployed? That to a certain extent was passed

:42:15.:42:19.

aside because of the view it was pure criminality or would you like

:42:19.:42:22.

a proper review of where the cops are? Absolutely. Boris is proposing

:42:22.:42:26.

to get rid of 600 srjents. We've got a reduction in police numbers

:42:26.:42:32.

after the Olympics. People in London want to see officers, not

:42:32.:42:36.

less, and clearly on a Saturday night in August, the officers there

:42:36.:42:39.

were not able to contain young people who started burning a car,

:42:39.:42:45.

then a second car, and then a bus. Will they realistically ever be

:42:45.:42:51.

able to contain the wildfire that spread? Yes, we pay our taxes.

:42:51.:42:56.

People are entitled to be policed. Let's be clear on this. In my

:42:56.:43:00.

constituency, ordinary people - not the rioters, not the looters -

:43:00.:43:05.

ordinary people do not feel policed. They saw young criminals outfox our

:43:05.:43:09.

police officers. Two stark facts: number one, there are 32,000 police

:43:09.:43:14.

in London. Only 3,000 were turned out as it were in in Tottenham

:43:14.:43:17.

eventually. Number two, when they were turned out the next day, there

:43:17.:43:21.

were lots of heroic actions by individual policemen, but what was

:43:21.:43:26.

clearly the case was they were told to stand back. You could see

:43:26.:43:32.

policemen watching arson, theft. They hated it themselves but the

:43:32.:43:34.

leadership, there was a massive police leadership failure. That's

:43:34.:43:37.

the point we have to understand. One final thing, the Prime Minister

:43:38.:43:40.

is going to say this this afternoon, views on televising court

:43:41.:43:43.

proceedings. Will that make a difference? I think we need to

:43:43.:43:49.

televise the courts. People need to see justice done. They want to see

:43:49.:43:55.

the sentences. We absolutely need to get past this business of behind

:43:55.:44:00.

closed doors. I'm I'm happy about seeing the sentencing and I've

:44:00.:44:05.

watched the American court cases. The theeate kalt of it is - the

:44:05.:44:09.

theatre of it is different from the sober justice we're used to. Look

:44:09.:44:14.

at the OJ case. They said this about the House of Commons. The

:44:14.:44:18.

same Conservatives, let's not televise the House of Commons,

:44:18.:44:22.

people see their democracy in front of them, whether they like it or

:44:22.:44:26.

not. We now need that with the courts. To be respected or admired,

:44:26.:44:30.

probably not? That's the sense of the time, if you've got MPs on the

:44:30.:44:38.

take, of course it's not admired! It could be to do with the quality

:44:38.:44:43.

of MPs of course! It might have been lousy in the 1950s, and we

:44:43.:44:49.

didn't see them. And so ends the discussion, but stay with us.

:44:49.:44:53.

Now, speaking of seeing MPs, we've seen quite a lot of backbenchers

:44:53.:44:56.

today questioning all sorts of witnesses at those select committee

:44:56.:44:59.

inquiries, select committees often being more important than what

:44:59.:45:02.

happens on the floor of the House. Usually, it's the government that

:45:02.:45:07.

sets the agenda in terms of what gets debated in the floor. What has

:45:07.:45:11.

been a new development, however, is something called the backbench

:45:11.:45:14.

business committee which can get the odd item on to the agenda, run

:45:14.:45:18.

by MPs, and it's meeting this lunchtime. Not only that, but we

:45:18.:45:24.

can also try and influence what subjects they pick for debate by

:45:24.:45:26.

signing E-petitions, which is online. So, what have you been

:45:26.:45:30.

getting cross about recently online? Giles has been taking a

:45:30.:45:36.

look. 8 E-petitions - an exercise in 21

:45:36.:45:42.

century digital democracy or a handy way of plaibgt people feel

:45:42.:45:45.

like they have a voice but actually don't. It doesn't matter what you

:45:46.:45:49.

think because it's no doubt people are signing them, but only those

:45:49.:45:53.

with 100,000 signatories will be considered for debate, and so far,

:45:53.:45:58.

that is just two. Over the summer, Twitter fans may have seen an

:45:58.:46:06.

online campaign to get the death penalty to return. A counter E-

:46:06.:46:12.

petition to keep the status qo had 26,000 signatures and came six.

:46:12.:46:21.

What are in the top five? At five, 36,000 signed to ask the

:46:21.:46:23.

government's change public sector pension increases to be reversed.

:46:23.:46:28.

At four, 57,000 agreed financial education should be a compulsory

:46:28.:46:33.

part of the school curriculum. At three, an E-petition for cheaper

:46:33.:46:42.

petrol and diesel attracted 67,500 but as yet, all of those are still

:46:42.:46:45.

short of the magic 100,000. Which were the two which cleared the

:46:45.:46:49.

threshold? At two, a request for full disclosure of all government

:46:50.:46:58.

documents relating to the 1989 Hillsborough disaster. This got

:46:58.:47:02.

13137,600 signatories, and some publicity from a well-known

:47:02.:47:08.

footballer. Last week, the government suggested it wasn't - at

:47:08.:47:15.

one, normally 212,000 agreed MPs debate whether convicted London

:47:15.:47:17.

rioters should lose all their benefits. Will the backbench

:47:18.:47:21.

business committee look at scheduling a debate for that? Since

:47:21.:47:25.

every E-petition is open for a year, will those currently under the

:47:25.:47:30.

100,000 make the magic marker? Incidently, there are two others

:47:30.:47:34.

running: one saying 100,000 is too much, and another saying 100,000 is

:47:34.:47:40.

too little. Neither of them has significant support.

:47:40.:47:45.

David Lammy and David Davis are still with us. Is it a gimmick?

:47:45.:47:48.

it's a good idea, actually. I think the whole backbench business

:47:48.:47:52.

committee thing has been an astounding success. You've heard

:47:52.:47:57.

about one change of government policy on Hillsborough, prisoner

:47:57.:48:00.

votes, the government was driven off its own policy, changed on that.

:48:01.:48:05.

I think it's a very good idea. it really make a difference?

:48:05.:48:08.

think we're seeing a far more assertive group of backbenchers.

:48:08.:48:11.

Select committees are working, and I think that the public need to

:48:11.:48:15.

find ways to influence what they see as a political elite and a

:48:15.:48:19.

political class removed from them. So things like Hillsborough, a huge

:48:19.:48:24.

huge development Thai don't think you could have left to parliament

:48:24.:48:28.

itself. The committee will presumably select select one of

:48:28.:48:31.

these E-petitions for debate, debate it, and then what? Then the

:48:31.:48:37.

government will have to respond. They've first of all got to decide

:48:37.:48:39.

what they should do about whipping. They shouldn't really whip these

:48:39.:48:43.

things at all. We had this with the prisoner votes, they tried to whip

:48:43.:48:45.

various proposals and the Conservative Party wouldn't play so

:48:45.:48:50.

they then had to give in it and change their line. The petition to

:48:50.:48:53.

take away welfare benefits from rioters, that's something the

:48:53.:48:57.

political parties are going to have a view on, that would have to be

:48:57.:49:00.

whipped, I thought have thought. Not necessarily. Just because we

:49:00.:49:04.

have a view, it's not we're all of the same view. That's something

:49:04.:49:07.

frankly the Prime Minister put into the public domain when he made his

:49:07.:49:10.

statement after the riots. There are very, very different views in

:49:10.:49:14.

both main parties, all three parties, about whether it is a good

:49:14.:49:19.

or a bad bad idea. This is the sort of debate that parliament August to

:49:19.:49:24.

be able to assert its view. Throughout the Blair/Brown years,

:49:24.:49:28.

there were complaints that the legislature was not holding the

:49:28.:49:32.

executive to account. Do you really think that's improved? I think

:49:32.:49:35.

that's a fair saemt, to be honest, about backbench activity in the

:49:35.:49:39.

first two terms that certainly I was in parliament. I do think we're

:49:39.:49:45.

seeing a more robust parliamentary system. You're concentrating on

:49:45.:49:47.

select committees where frankly a show like this would have regarded

:49:47.:49:54.

them previously. Not this kind of show! Maybe Panorama or Newsnight

:49:54.:50:00.

or these other downmarket programmes! And there there is -

:50:00.:50:03.

there is a sense of there is action back in the House of Commons after

:50:03.:50:07.

a period where the action was in other places. Do you buy this?

:50:07.:50:11.

approve of just about anything, any measure whereby backbenchers can

:50:11.:50:13.

hold the government to account because it's their job. I've spent,

:50:13.:50:23.
:50:23.:50:24.

as we both know, I think, 15 years watching virtual an obsequious

:50:24.:50:34.
:50:34.:50:39.

backbench entrepreneurial lafrpbgs grant them a debate or a change of

:50:39.:50:42.

policy that they don't wish. They can see Hillsborough but they're

:50:42.:50:46.

not going to concede a referendum - They had to on prisoner votes. They

:50:46.:50:51.

had no choice on that one. Explain that. The government was going to

:50:51.:50:56.

grant them? Because everybody under a four-year sentence, and then -

:50:56.:51:01.

They didn't want to do it. often do you hear governments say

:51:01.:51:05.

we don't want to do this but we have to because of Europe. It's

:51:05.:51:08.

four years, then one years, then six years, then magistrates, and

:51:09.:51:11.

then they gave in. The other thing that is altered all this is the

:51:11.:51:16.

existence of the coalition itself. If Simon Hughes jumps up and says

:51:16.:51:19.

he doesn't like what the government is doing, they can hardly turn

:51:19.:51:24.

round to me and say you can't jump up and say you don't like - the

:51:24.:51:28.

coalition has caused a new debate as well. Coalition may have

:51:28.:51:33.

liberated the backbenches? In a way. We shall have to say goodbye to

:51:33.:51:38.

these two not so obsequious backbenchers! Thank you! 30 years

:51:38.:51:41.

ago, a group much women took a stand, protesting about the arrival

:51:41.:51:45.

of American nuclear missiles at an air base in Berkshire and stay

:51:45.:51:54.

outside the gates of Greenham Common in all weathers for 19 years.

:51:54.:52:00.

# God save our gracious Queen... # Thatcher was Prime Minister, the

:52:00.:52:04.

Cold War reaching a new peak, and a group of Welsh women had marched to

:52:04.:52:13.

Berkshire. They were concerned because the air

:52:13.:52:18.

base at Greenham Common was soon to become home to a new kind of

:52:18.:52:22.

nuclear weapon belonging to the US: the cruise missile. Women from

:52:22.:52:26.

across the country and around the world joined the all-female, all-

:52:26.:52:30.

hours peace camp. Living conditions were rudimentary, and especially

:52:30.:52:34.

tough during winter. At one point, 35,000 women linked arms around the

:52:34.:52:38.

place, although some of their stunts got some of them imprisoned,

:52:38.:52:42.

as one veteran explained to me. Well, of course, if you have a

:52:42.:52:45.

group of women who occupy the century box at the opening of a

:52:45.:52:54.

nuclear weapons base, or go - seentry box, dance on the nuclear

:52:54.:52:57.

weapons silos or climb up the outside and get into the air

:52:57.:53:01.

traffic control tower, hang a big banner saying, "Peace on earth",

:53:01.:53:06.

this technically is considered illegal. But we did it entirely

:53:06.:53:09.

with non-violence, always. That's not how it was seen by some

:53:09.:53:15.

sections of the media. "They suspect the nuclear issue here has

:53:15.:53:20.

been hijacked by radical feminists who tend to give the majority a bad

:53:20.:53:23.

image." Or by the governments of the day. What they tried to do was

:53:23.:53:29.

give a very clear image of peace- loving people, very reasonable, et

:53:29.:53:33.

cetera, but when I went to Greenham Common, it turned out that they

:53:33.:53:37.

were violent mob on the streets, and I think that completely cut the

:53:37.:53:40.

ground from underneath them. But it was this that eventually brought

:53:40.:53:47.

the protest to an end: the agreement between Reagan and

:53:47.:53:51.

Gorbachev in 1987 that began the drawdown of stocks of nuclear

:53:51.:53:55.

weapons which meant the missiles of Greenham Common were loaded on to a

:53:55.:53:59.

plane and taken home. A smaller group of women remained until the

:53:59.:54:03.

year 2000 after the base had been dismantled.

:54:03.:54:07.

This weekend, some of them were back there, the site of their 19-

:54:07.:54:13.

year protest now an industrial estate and country park. There's a

:54:13.:54:19.

herd of Exmoor ponies, there are cows, people people take their dogs

:54:19.:54:22.

and toddlers for walks on that base. It's beautiful, how, in the deepest

:54:22.:54:28.

darkest days when I wondered if it was worth it, that's how I imagined

:54:28.:54:31.

Greenham Common could be restored to common land and it has been.

:54:31.:54:36.

We're joined now by one of the ladies of Greenham Common, Joan

:54:36.:54:42.

Ruddock, who was the former chair of CND. Picking up there what

:54:42.:54:45.

Michael Heseltine said, he characterised them as a violent mob

:54:45.:54:50.

on the streets. Obviously not true in your view? Entirely not true. If

:54:50.:54:54.

there was any violence going, it was in his own mind. We saw some of

:54:54.:54:58.

the pictures indicating - There really wasn't. The whole purpose of

:54:58.:55:01.

the women's protest, and the whole reason that the peace movement gave

:55:01.:55:06.

the space to women and didn't invade them and get involved was to

:55:06.:55:12.

remove aggression, so that it was seen to be a women's-only event,

:55:12.:55:19.

and it was actually non-violent and always was non-violent. I never saw

:55:19.:55:22.

any violence at that base. People say it brought worldwide attention

:55:22.:55:25.

perhaps to the issue. It didn't actually achieve anything, did it?

:55:25.:55:29.

We saw those pictures of Gorbachev and President Regan. They made

:55:30.:55:33.

those decisions. It wasn't as a result of the women at Greenham

:55:33.:55:36.

Common. It's very difficult to know what actually motivates leaders,

:55:36.:55:40.

and when you've got huge public protest on both sides of what was

:55:40.:55:45.

then the Iron Curtain, this certainly was likely to have have

:55:45.:55:50.

had some effect. What we saw from the women was was a symbolism that

:55:50.:55:53.

ordinary people could challenge authority, that they were not

:55:53.:55:57.

afraid, and that nuclear weapons which were things that respect

:55:57.:56:02.

going to kill millions, hundreds of millions of people, did not have

:56:02.:56:07.

any part in a reasonable society. The arguments were all about reason,

:56:07.:56:11.

and the reason prevailed. One of the most significant things, I

:56:11.:56:15.

think, that was said to me, because I dealt quite a lot with Gorbachev

:56:15.:56:18.

advisers, and one of them said to me one day, "You know, we learned

:56:18.:56:23.

by your example." We have many contacts with the police movement

:56:23.:56:28.

with dissidents in the east, and we were part of that growing democracy

:56:28.:56:35.

movement across eastern Europe that was challenging the old hegemoy of

:56:35.:56:38.

the eastern states. One of the Gorbachev advisers said it had an

:56:38.:56:42.

influence, it was symbolic. think it brought Gorbachev to

:56:42.:56:47.

power? Not the Greenham Common women. Emphatically not. No-one is

:56:47.:56:50.

suggesting that for a moment. rather closer to the coal face

:56:50.:56:53.

because I was a foreign correspondent for East Germany,

:56:53.:56:57.

Czechoslovakia and Hungary at the height of the Cold War. I watched

:56:58.:57:01.

the brutality of the communist regime, this so-called protest

:57:01.:57:06.

movement both sides. Come on, the only way you got a protest protest

:57:06.:57:10.

movement on the other side of the Iron Curtain was you got a one-way

:57:10.:57:17.

ticket to Siberia. But them protest. I've been in Moscow trying to visit

:57:17.:57:21.

protesters in Moscow. I've been arrested by the KGB. You weren't

:57:21.:57:25.

imprisoned, were you? I was visiting them in flats that respect

:57:25.:57:30.

surrounded by the KGB. Of course they were under enormous pressure.

:57:30.:57:34.

Where do you think they got the inspiration, both from themselves

:57:34.:57:38.

and their own ideas of what might be different, but also because

:57:38.:57:43.

people in the West challenged the whole idea of nuclear weapons

:57:43.:57:47.

maintaining the so-called peace. Nuclear weapons wra danger to all

:57:47.:57:55.

of us, people in the East and West understood that. People generally,

:57:55.:57:59.

as populations, not just behind the Iron Curtain, do you think they

:57:59.:58:06.

were affected?. What caused finally the Politburo to lose its nerve and

:58:06.:58:09.

the man they knew was going to change things in the form of

:58:09.:58:13.

Gorbachev was the fact that they economically they were going broke.

:58:13.:58:17.

Communism had failed economically. It was failing socially, and it was

:58:17.:58:24.

failing militarily largely because we were deploying weapons like per

:58:24.:58:29.

shinning two and Cruise that they couldn't match with SS20s. We put

:58:29.:58:39.
:58:39.:58:40.

up more More pershingIIs, then the voice of people like Gorbachev

:58:40.:58:45.

prevailed. It's got nothing to do with ladies sitting - We were

:58:45.:58:50.

certainly proud of. He needed to find some support. He needed

:58:50.:58:54.

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