Conference Special Daily Politics


Conference Special

Andrew Neil is in Liverpool for the Labour Party's annual conference with Jo Coburn in Westminster with all the other top political stories of the day.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to Conference Special. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon. We are live from the this ball, where that sky is

:00:26.:00:36.

blue. -- live from Liverpool. That's the view from the Liverpool

:00:36.:00:44.

Wheel. It is another busy day here at conference. Ed Miliband has been

:00:44.:00:47.

doing his round of morning interviews, which always follows

:00:47.:00:51.

the leader's speech these days. He has a message for you youngsters

:00:51.:00:55.

out there - do not pin your hopes on being the next star of a reality

:00:55.:01:00.

TV show. You know you want to, but the Labour leader says no. His

:01:00.:01:04.

party tonight is hosting its own talent contest. Inside the

:01:04.:01:13.

conference, delegates are still digesting the Miliband speech. The

:01:13.:01:16.

journalists -- he had a good reception here, even though they

:01:16.:01:20.

are not working in the aisles. We will be speaking to the Shadow

:01:20.:01:23.

business secretary. And Giles has been finding out if there is any

:01:23.:01:28.

appetite for a future deal with the Lib Dems. Is there still hope for

:01:28.:01:34.

the Progressive Alliance? Or has Nick Clegg put an end to that? And

:01:34.:01:40.

that's not all. Jo has done a runner, left us. She's back in

:01:40.:01:45.

London. I have hot-footed it back to the capital, where the weather

:01:45.:01:50.

is just as nice. The big story today - Labour accusing the

:01:50.:01:54.

coalition of confusion over police reform. So the party has set up its

:01:54.:01:57.

own review. We will be speaking to the former Crimewatch presenter

:01:57.:02:06.

Nick Ross, and to the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper.

:02:06.:02:11.

Yes, all that and a lot more coming up in the next hour. To discuss

:02:11.:02:15.

that, I am joined by Anushka Asthana from the Times, and

:02:15.:02:19.

Benedict Brogan from the Telegraph. So, it is the morning after the

:02:19.:02:24.

night before - what do we think? think the speech has not had a

:02:24.:02:28.

great reception in terms of the newspapers today. I saw that Ed

:02:28.:02:36.

Miliband was asked about Tony Blair this morning, whom of course he

:02:36.:02:40.

mentioned that he was not in the speech, and got cheers. He did not

:02:40.:02:47.

defend Tony Blair that heavily. Should not a leader have said, when

:02:47.:02:51.

he heard the Boeing, have immediately ad-libbed, how dare

:02:51.:02:56.

anybody do that for the most successful Labour leader we ever

:02:56.:03:00.

had, who introduced the minimum wage, built more schools and

:03:00.:03:05.

hospitals than any leader ever? Why did he not do that? There are still

:03:05.:03:09.

plenty of fans of Tony Blair, and this morning they are out raged

:03:09.:03:14.

that he did not say anything. He appears to have associated himself

:03:14.:03:18.

with the jeering of Labour's most successful leader since the war, if

:03:18.:03:25.

not in its entire history. There is some good news for him. He came to

:03:25.:03:31.

Liverpool and advanced an argument. That is refreshing. But it is an

:03:31.:03:34.

argument that everybody is arguing with this morning. The difficulty

:03:34.:03:37.

for him is that in his round of interviews, he spent all of his

:03:37.:03:41.

time explaining what he was trying to say, defending himself about

:03:41.:03:45.

Tony Blair, and even having to answer questions about whether or

:03:45.:03:49.

not he is weird. There is a difficult disconnect for the Labour

:03:49.:03:54.

leader, I would suggest. He says it is the end of the political and

:03:54.:03:58.

economic consensus of the past 30 years. He may be right on that.

:03:58.:04:02.

These things come in cycles. The post-war consensus ended with Mrs

:04:02.:04:07.

Thatcher. It is probably time for a new one to emerge. But if you say

:04:07.:04:10.

something that big is happening, you have to have something quite

:04:10.:04:15.

big to respond to it. I agree. He has got this idea of goodies and

:04:15.:04:25.
:04:25.:04:27.

baddies, producers and predators, I think it was. The the problem is

:04:27.:04:30.

that it is too much like black-and- white. Everybody has a bit of both.

:04:30.:04:35.

You have these pantomime villains, like Fred Goodwin. He's talking to

:04:35.:04:42.

you, as in, are we the goodies? I'm not sure, maybe I'm a baddie, I'm a

:04:42.:04:47.

journalist. A definitely a baddie, you're a predator. But you at the

:04:47.:04:52.

Telegraph, we do not know. definitely on the good side of the

:04:52.:04:55.

argument. But he has got this big argument and he has not got

:04:55.:04:59.

convincing answers to it. Everybody is puzzled as to what he means.

:04:59.:05:04.

Does it mean that as Mr Hi! -- bad businesses will be taxed more than

:05:04.:05:14.

others? We remember Gordon Brown going around like a bear with a

:05:14.:05:18.

sore head after the Sun dumped him. Ed Miliband was not quite like that

:05:18.:05:23.

this morning. This is what he had to say. Are you saying you want to

:05:23.:05:27.

fight the gas and electricity companies? Just remind me, who was

:05:27.:05:31.

the Secretary of State for energy quite recently? Me, and that's why

:05:31.:05:36.

I took action. Did you take them on? You guessed, I did. Talk to

:05:36.:05:40.

them about it. I took action on prices, on pre-payment meters. But

:05:40.:05:48.

there's more that we can do. People are saying, hold on, he wrote the

:05:48.:05:52.

rules - on Energy, on debt finance, which led to Southern Cross, you

:05:52.:05:58.

were there. A was there, and I do not say we did everything right.

:05:58.:06:02.

I'm proud of what we did. On the crucial issue of pre-payment meters,

:06:02.:06:07.

for example, we took action. Ask the companies themselves whether

:06:07.:06:11.

Ray gave them an easy ride, and they will say I did not. I'm

:06:11.:06:14.

determined that we complete that work, which we would have done if

:06:14.:06:19.

we had been re-elected. mentioned good business and bad

:06:19.:06:24.

business - British Airways, is that a good business? The most important

:06:24.:06:28.

distinction I make is between good business practices and bad business

:06:28.:06:34.

practices. I'm not going to typecast one industry. So, let's

:06:34.:06:43.

talk about British Aerospace... It is the subject of a fraud inquiry.

:06:43.:06:47.

I know what good business is about. It is about training your workforce,

:06:47.:06:55.

it is about sustainable wealth, not wealth which is built on sand. Of

:06:55.:07:00.

course you need defence manufacturers in your economy.

:07:00.:07:04.

about private-equity companies? So, provided you train people and spend

:07:04.:07:10.

money on research...? Sustainable wealth, that is what is about. It

:07:10.:07:15.

is more complicated than just to say it is about a few evil people.

:07:15.:07:18.

The rules were not right, they encouraged the wrong things, not

:07:19.:07:23.

the right things. You could say, let's just carry on as we are.

:07:24.:07:28.

Let's say the banking crisis was simply a local difficulty. Icesave

:07:28.:07:33.

this is a moment when we have got to change. This is not anti-

:07:33.:07:43.
:07:43.:07:45.

business. It is anti-business as usual. Let me comeback to a matter

:07:45.:07:49.

mention by Ben, the question on the Today Programme, people think you

:07:49.:07:54.

are weird... Before coming here, partly because the new channels are

:07:54.:07:58.

full of the Michael Jackson trial, I tried to watch some other things.

:07:58.:08:04.

I came across Channel Five, the show with a live audience in the

:08:04.:08:09.

mornings, not with people like this, just ordinary daytime viewers. They

:08:09.:08:13.

ran a clip of Ed Miliband, and the whole audience started to snigger

:08:13.:08:17.

and burst into laughter. The presenter, quite pro-Labour, put

:08:17.:08:22.

his head in his hands, like that. That's a real problem. I think it

:08:22.:08:27.

can be a problem. It is a real shame that that was the reaction.

:08:27.:08:33.

It takes time to put that right. With Mr Hague and Iain Duncan Smith,

:08:33.:08:39.

for the Tories, it never happened.. But it can happen for some people.

:08:39.:08:43.

David Cameron was not as impressive in the early days as he later

:08:43.:08:47.

became. I'm not sure it can, in this case. First impressions are

:08:47.:08:51.

terribly important. The danger is that Ed Miliband is crystallising

:08:52.:08:57.

the minds of the public as somebody who is slightly so regal, slightly

:08:57.:09:01.

goofy looking. Somebody who is not quite in tune with them. --

:09:02.:09:09.

cerebral. We have not got that much time left. The William Hague of

:09:09.:09:13.

this conference, Rory Weal, it turns out, according to some of the

:09:13.:09:17.

papers, he was not born in a shoe and brought up in the middle of a

:09:17.:09:21.

roundabout, after all. But you have interviewed him. You can have a

:09:21.:09:25.

minute to defend him, and you have a minute to say whatever you want.

:09:25.:09:29.

He probably should have mentioned that she had gone to private school.

:09:29.:09:33.

But he never claimed that he lived a life of poverty. One point he

:09:33.:09:37.

made to me was that actually, people who sometimes need the

:09:37.:09:40.

benefits system are not the stereotypes that you talk about. He

:09:40.:09:45.

never lied, his house was repossessed. He was remiss in what

:09:45.:09:50.

he should have told us. Perhaps it was a sin of omission. But he is a

:09:50.:09:54.

16-year-old. How many 16-year-olds can do what he did yesterday. Very

:09:54.:10:02.

few, but then he does go to a grammar school. I found him great,

:10:02.:10:07.

he was a normal kid. He loved football, Charlton Athletic. I

:10:07.:10:10.

should have noticed that she had a season ticket for Charlton Athletic,

:10:10.:10:17.

which obviously wasn't that cheap. You warmed to him? Yes, he's just a

:10:17.:10:21.

very nice, personable 16-year-old. I was impressed with what he did.

:10:21.:10:25.

He should have mentioned his dad and the money. But the reality is

:10:25.:10:30.

that his house did get repossessed. The you will probably turn out to

:10:30.:10:37.

be a brilliant politician because he has mastered the art of being

:10:37.:10:41.

economical with the truth. And he is a walking, talking advertisement

:10:41.:10:47.

for private education as well. Would you like a badge? I love

:10:47.:10:50.

Rupert Murdoch? He is your proprietor, I would like to remind

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:01.

you. This one, I love Ed. I will take, I love deficit reduction. The

:11:01.:11:06.

thank you very much to both of you. Let's go back to London. Open the

:11:06.:11:10.

papers, turn on the television, and the parts of Ed Miliband's speech

:11:10.:11:14.

which are being picked over are the bits about business. Labour's big

:11:15.:11:18.

game hunters stepped into the conference jungle yesterday, and he

:11:18.:11:23.

had some big targets in his sights. He took aim at predatory private-

:11:23.:11:29.

equity firms, like the one which bought and eventually closed

:11:29.:11:34.

Southern Cross care homes, Blackstone. He could not resist

:11:34.:11:41.

firing off a few rounds at ex-RBS chief Fred Goodwin. But he was keen

:11:41.:11:45.

to recognise good firms, what he termed producers, like Rolls-Royce,

:11:45.:11:49.

who are creating wealth and keeping jobs in this country. He made it

:11:49.:11:52.

clear he would favour these firms and government.

:11:52.:11:56.

We must learn the lesson that growth is built on sand if it comes

:11:56.:12:00.

from our predators and not our producers. For years, as a country,

:12:00.:12:05.

we have been neutral in that battle. They have been taxed, regulated,

:12:05.:12:10.

celebrated the same - they will not be by me. We need the most

:12:10.:12:12.

competitive tax and regulatory environment for business that we

:12:12.:12:19.

can have. When I am Prime Minister, how we tax, how we relegate, what

:12:19.:12:23.

government buys, will be in the service of Britain's producers.

:12:23.:12:28.

That did not go down well with big business beasts. Former trade

:12:28.:12:32.

minister Lord Digby Jones called minister Lord Digby Jones called

:12:33.:12:35.

the remarks divisive and a kick in the teeth for business. In contrast,

:12:35.:12:39.

the speech was it would meet for those on the left. Len McCluskey

:12:39.:12:44.

eulogised that there was a phoenix rising from the ashes, with Labour

:12:44.:12:48.

becoming a peoples Party. Joining me now, from the Conservative Party,

:12:48.:12:53.

me now, from the Conservative Party, Michael Fallon. Do you agree that

:12:53.:12:55.

the something for something mantra that he used will resonate well

:12:55.:13:01.

people? But what did they do about it over 13 years? They did not do

:13:01.:13:02.

it over 13 years? They did not do anything about welfare reform.

:13:02.:13:06.

They're not backing our changes on welfare reform to make sure that

:13:06.:13:15.

you have to work to claim benefit. Just not backing the changes. They

:13:15.:13:19.

are talking about this. They did not do it when they were in office.

:13:19.:13:22.

You could argue that they did actually have a welfare programme

:13:22.:13:25.

in place, and they have said that they would use more stick and

:13:25.:13:34.

carrot. But you couldn't disagree with the idea of something for

:13:34.:13:39.

something? No, but you have to ask why they did not do it successfully

:13:39.:13:43.

in government, why they had so many people claiming benefit, and why it

:13:43.:13:47.

is still more worthwhile to claim benefit and to work. We're changing

:13:47.:13:51.

that. We have got a bill changing that at the moment. The locals are

:13:51.:13:55.

in a sense, you agree on that level, even if you are doing different

:13:55.:13:59.

things about it. He also agree with the idea of ending the era of the

:13:59.:14:09.
:14:09.:14:17.

fast buck? You agree with him on that as well? We are regulating the

:14:17.:14:27.
:14:27.:14:47.

banks properly and putting the Bank We were warning about it. Lots of

:14:47.:14:51.

people were warning about it. Lots of people were saying, this thing

:14:51.:14:55.

is getting out of control, and when it ended up with the banks going

:14:55.:15:00.

bust. We are now having to clear up that mess. That's why we are

:15:00.:15:03.

reforming banking regulation and making sure it does not happen

:15:03.:15:08.

again. So, in a sense, you are at one with what Ed Miliband is saying.

:15:08.:15:12.

You are saying they should be regulation, they should be some

:15:12.:15:16.

controls on what banks and may be big in the business does. In a way,

:15:16.:15:20.

you are agree with that line, that it is the end of that era, it is

:15:20.:15:30.
:15:30.:15:35.

the end of the fast buck, the end He say you need to divide companies

:15:35.:15:39.

into good cafes and bad companies, some are producers, and nobody

:15:39.:15:49.
:15:49.:15:50.

knows how you define them. It takes you back to the kind of picking

:15:50.:15:53.

winners and so one of the 1970s if you say that they are different.

:15:53.:16:01.

Are you saying there is not to case about having an argument where,

:16:01.:16:06.

cannot he be the middle guide between people who exploit the

:16:06.:16:10.

welfare state and businesses that made money on the back of

:16:10.:16:13.

speculation. You are always having to improve regulation because they

:16:13.:16:18.

fail to regulate the banks properly. The Conservatives didn't come in at

:16:18.:16:21.

the time and say. He is going further and say in government

:16:21.:16:25.

ministers should make moral decisions about which companies are

:16:25.:16:30.

better. Wise's boots a predator? Are you saying it is not possible

:16:30.:16:33.

or desirable to reward good businesses with tax breaks and

:16:33.:16:39.

investments? Good businesses are rewarding themselves by attracting

:16:39.:16:42.

more shareholding, making profits for the shareholders. There is

:16:42.:16:48.

already plenty of corporate guidance and so on. But what

:16:48.:16:55.

ministers cannot do is say, you are a good business and you are a bad

:16:55.:17:00.

one. The Federation of Schmoll businesses had criticism along

:17:00.:17:06.

those lines but said Ed Miliband had a good idea -- Federation of

:17:06.:17:12.

school businesses. Do you not agree? We can always improve

:17:13.:17:17.

regulation. We are doing that. is more than that. He is saying

:17:18.:17:22.

something different. He is trying to say that ministers should make

:17:22.:17:28.

moral judgments. I don't think they should go so far as deciding what a

:17:28.:17:33.

good and bad company is. Were you celebrating in Conservative Central

:17:34.:17:41.

Office is as has been reported? I have not heard that. It has not

:17:41.:17:44.

been a good walk. On Monday we didn't have a credible economic

:17:45.:17:48.

plan from Ed Balls and yesterday we have a speech from Miliband which

:17:48.:17:55.

is already falling apart. It hasn't been a good week. It has been

:17:55.:18:01.

confused and rather weak. Back to Andrew in the Conference Centre.

:18:01.:18:07.

We are joined by the Shadow Business Secretary, John Denham.

:18:07.:18:15.

The leader of the opposition told Nick Robinson that he didn't want

:18:15.:18:23.

wealth built on sand. But when your government was taking billions and

:18:23.:18:26.

billions of pounds in revenues from banks like the Royal Bank of

:18:26.:18:31.

Scotland and others in the mid- part of the decade to, using it to

:18:31.:18:36.

build schools and hospitals, was that wealth built on sand?

:18:36.:18:40.

reality was that that approach to the economy wasn't one that is

:18:40.:18:43.

sustainable in the long term. That is why Ed Miliband was talking

:18:43.:18:47.

about the rules. You didn't know at the time. When you were taking all

:18:47.:18:51.

that money, billions of pounds from financial-services, you didn't know.

:18:51.:18:55.

You certainly didn't say it was wealth built on sand. The point

:18:55.:19:00.

about where we are now after losing an election and after the banking

:19:00.:19:04.

crisis is to say, do we understand what needs to be done in the

:19:04.:19:08.

future? We have a record that I am proud. But there were things that

:19:08.:19:11.

happened and things we didn't get right that we need to change in the

:19:11.:19:21.

future. My point is, you do not know, we do not know when wealth is

:19:21.:19:25.

built on sand and when it isn't. Who would have thought that the

:19:25.:19:30.

Royal Bank of Scotland turned out to be well built on sand? I think

:19:30.:19:35.

we can say that if we have as many companies a possible who invest

:19:35.:19:39.

long term, who trained staff, who take the environment seriously,

:19:39.:19:42.

which want their customers to be with them in 15 years' time and not

:19:43.:19:47.

just in 15 minutes, those countries are the ones that are most likely

:19:47.:19:53.

to bring success to this country. We don't have an environment that

:19:53.:19:57.

fosters that. It is often been possible to make more money by

:19:57.:20:01.

doing more short-term things than by building a long-term business.

:20:01.:20:05.

What government has to do more seriously than we have done before

:20:05.:20:08.

is create the environment for those good companies to grow. Firstly,

:20:08.:20:11.

you will not get good companies without good government. If

:20:11.:20:16.

government jobs and changes its policy... Willie penalise countries

:20:16.:20:22.

that do not follow the Government's rules? You have to get incentives

:20:22.:20:26.

right in the first place. It is recognising that if the rules of

:20:26.:20:31.

the game are that you can make more money than speculation than

:20:31.:20:36.

investing long-term, people will. Let us get the rules right. This

:20:36.:20:40.

company is full of companies -- this country is full of companies

:20:40.:20:45.

that invest for the long term. you look at the economy, there are

:20:45.:20:49.

not enough of them for the size of a country to pay away in the world.

:20:49.:20:52.

We have brilliant companies but we also have companies with business

:20:53.:21:01.

models that a more short-term. example. I will not name any.

:21:01.:21:07.

you can't name companies, it is impossible to have a proper debate.

:21:07.:21:10.

It is a theoretical debate for an Oxbridge Common Room. It is talking

:21:10.:21:17.

about features in companies, training, Ferrar conditions. We

:21:17.:21:22.

need more of those conditions and more sectors of the economy.

:21:22.:21:25.

Everything we cut of about doing is changing the rules of the economy.

:21:25.:21:29.

Which falls? Rules on investment return for example, which means

:21:29.:21:33.

they can be incentives to buy into a young company and then sell it on

:21:33.:21:37.

within five years, instead of keeping your cup listen to enable

:21:37.:21:44.

it to grow. We need to make more small companies become bigger

:21:44.:21:48.

companies. How do you know it might not be a good thing to sell the

:21:49.:21:54.

company on in five years to another company? A trade sale that wants to

:21:54.:21:58.

acquire it and grow it? How can you stop it on know whether it is good?

:21:58.:22:03.

You have to make judgments on what deals you is a device. I wouldn't

:22:03.:22:07.

want to stand in the way of somebody who got Investment and

:22:07.:22:11.

chose to sell on after five years. Too many small businesses say they

:22:11.:22:16.

have no option. That when you get venture capital in after five years

:22:16.:22:21.

the capital has to be released. We can look at how you change the

:22:21.:22:25.

rules to foster different behaviour. It means making judgements about

:22:25.:22:29.

the business models you want to reward. How many ministers in the

:22:29.:22:33.

shadow cabinet have first-hand business experience? I don't know

:22:33.:22:39.

how many do. I haven't done a head count. Who has? I set up the social

:22:39.:22:44.

enterprise myself very successfully 30 years ago. Did you have any

:22:44.:22:48.

business folk in the cabinet? have business people around the

:22:48.:22:54.

party. In the cabinet? I don't think there are any that come to

:22:54.:22:58.

mind that have made their main careers in business. And yet you

:22:58.:23:03.

think you can judge? Your shadow cabinet has no business experience

:23:03.:23:07.

yet you think you can judge when wealth is not based on sand, when

:23:07.:23:10.

it would be good or bad to sell a company on in five years' time,

:23:10.:23:15.

whether venture-capital lays down the right decisions? You have no

:23:15.:23:19.

qualifications for any of that. What was said yesterday and what I

:23:19.:23:25.

was saying, has not come out of thin air. If you talk about

:23:25.:23:29.

business, this is a discussion they are they having. It is the conflict

:23:29.:23:32.

between long-term wealth creation and short-term decisions. The

:23:32.:23:38.

dilemmas faced by small companies that want to grow. This is not a

:23:38.:23:41.

Labour party invented debate. It is what British business is talk about

:23:41.:23:45.

today. The reason we are talking about it is because we have been

:23:45.:23:47.

listening to businesses says the last election and that is what they

:23:47.:23:51.

are asking us to raise and to talk about. That has not been the

:23:51.:23:54.

reaction of business. Every spokesman we have heard from his

:23:54.:23:58.

very sniffy about what you are proposing. Tell me one major

:23:58.:24:03.

business figure that has supported the line Mr Miliband took yesterday.

:24:03.:24:09.

John Cridland from the CBI. Not to tour. He bangs the idea of

:24:09.:24:19.
:24:19.:24:22.

customers investing in the long term. -- he backs the idea. That is

:24:22.:24:28.

not controversial. At the moment we do not have a system of incentives,

:24:28.:24:30.

government policy-making, rewards, which fosters those types of

:24:30.:24:37.

business. He didn't do that for 14 years in power? -- you didn't.

:24:37.:24:41.

invest in training. We had crucial decisions that Ed was talking about

:24:41.:24:47.

earlier. Energy policy that laid down a long time frame mark. You're

:24:47.:24:52.

telling us now you have to take the six major energy companies over

:24:52.:24:59.

predatory pricing. We did some of the things but not all of them. If

:24:59.:25:02.

you are saying we shouldn't try to make this choice, try to foster

:25:02.:25:12.
:25:12.:25:21.

that environment, I did believe There is nothing wrong about the

:25:21.:25:25.

investment bank. But if you buy into a company, loaded with Betts,

:25:25.:25:28.

strip its assets and leave it as a husk, that is not a helpful

:25:28.:25:38.

business model. Tuna was investment banks do? They offer a range of

:25:38.:25:47.

mergers and acquisitions and a You are saying, if you are going to

:25:47.:25:56.

be in that activity, do tax was -- awards reward the merges? If they

:25:56.:26:00.

do, that is good. If government gets the rules wrong and they can

:26:00.:26:04.

make more money by taking assets out, you don't own the company for

:26:04.:26:08.

that. The individuals involved. You say government has to get the rules

:26:08.:26:15.

right. Were you proud of your party when Tony Blair was booed

:26:15.:26:24.

yesterday? Ed Miliband was clear. He said he was his own man. He said

:26:24.:26:29.

this morning that this was the end of the Thatcher-Blair era. To the

:26:29.:26:32.

extent that the idea was that we should be completely neutral about

:26:32.:26:36.

which types of business models that took place as long as they were

:26:36.:26:40.

business. We have to go beyond that. If we pay our way in a world that

:26:40.:26:44.

has a rising China, a rise in India, we need more of those companies

:26:44.:26:47.

that will invest in the long term. Can you understand why people are

:26:47.:26:54.

puzzled that your own party should do what was regarded as the most

:26:54.:26:57.

successful leader -- should be doing what was regarded as the most

:26:58.:27:06.

successful leader. I was in the hall. With a Tory conference ever

:27:06.:27:13.

do that to Margaret Thatcher? don't think so. What did you say

:27:13.:27:17.

about Gordon and Tony? Two of the greatest leader the party has ever

:27:17.:27:26.

had. Did they applaud that? they did. Are you sure? We will

:27:26.:27:29.

have to look at the Tate. Thank you for being a with us.

:27:29.:27:37.

Last week at the Liberal Democrat conference we sent the mood box out

:27:37.:27:40.

to see who delegates would prefer to go into coalition with should

:27:40.:27:46.

there be a hung parliament in 2015. Tory or Labour? Delegates said they

:27:46.:27:51.

fancied Labour over the Tories. We went out this week to see if the

:27:51.:27:55.

feelings were reciprocated. Someone has tried to walk off with

:27:55.:28:00.

some of the mood box balls. We have lost them. But the question is

:28:00.:28:06.

today, should Ed Miliband rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? It

:28:06.:28:15.

takes two seconds. Whichever one you think. You are really need out.

:28:15.:28:24.

Excellent. I expected there to be a coalition so he knows what would

:28:24.:28:30.

happen. Should he rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? We

:28:30.:28:36.

don't ask easy questions. They are angry about what Nick Clegg has

:28:36.:28:43.

is progressive and that will do the right thing to Britain that is not

:28:43.:28:48.

led by the Tories. It is the right thing to leave the options open for

:28:48.:28:52.

a start you are catching us on the end of Ed Miliband's speech so we

:28:52.:29:01.

are feeling positive. It is a good thing to feel positive. You think

:29:01.:29:06.

it is sensible. Is that heart ruling head? I think so. If you

:29:06.:29:13.

have the chance to go to government you should take it. It is just

:29:13.:29:17.

sensible politics? There would have to be a new leader. Obviously not

:29:17.:29:24.

Vince Cable or Nick Clegg. Maybe Charles Kennedy again. Should Ed

:29:24.:29:31.

without a coalition with the Lib Dems? That would be like having a

:29:31.:29:35.

coalition with the Conservatives, so very much he should rule it out.

:29:35.:29:42.

We may not need them but you have to keep it open. Should he rule out

:29:42.:29:48.

a coalition with the Lib Dems? heart says rule it out. My head

:29:48.:29:51.

says, if his -- if it was a few of them and a lot of us, and the

:29:51.:29:54.

difference between us and them and the tourists and them, we would

:29:54.:30:02.

have to consider it. But it would go against the grey mack -- go

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:22.

It is the trade unionists and the MPs that do this. Howard Wilson

:30:22.:30:27.

said, a day in politics is a long time, and that's why I'm leaving my

:30:27.:30:31.

options open. It is closer than most have been this week, but it is

:30:31.:30:41.

still definitely rule it out which is winning at the halfway stage.

:30:41.:30:45.

think we ought to go it alone. If we are a minority government, so be

:30:45.:30:52.

it. Tell me, is there a reason why it. Tell me, is there a reason why

:30:52.:30:55.

all the MPs are options open, and the delegates are, well in it out?

:30:55.:31:01.

We are sensible realists. I think the Lib Dems will be very good,

:31:01.:31:11.

particularly those who have got more in common with Labour. More

:31:11.:31:16.

people would like Ed to read aloud a coalition with the Lib Dems, but

:31:16.:31:26.
:31:26.:31:27.

there are the pragmatists, who want options to be left open. Am joined

:31:27.:31:31.

now by the MP for Ian Murray, and by the self-styled sensible realist,

:31:31.:31:41.
:31:41.:31:46.

Tessa Jowell. Let me ask you this - given that we may be in an era of

:31:46.:31:53.

hung parliaments, we do not know, but we might be, surely, any party

:31:53.:31:57.

would be sensible not to read aloud any option. I think that's right.

:31:57.:32:02.

Other than the national Front, or whatever. That's right. And that is

:32:02.:32:08.

what being a sensible realist means. But also, nobody won the last

:32:08.:32:11.

election, and we do not know what the public mood will be that the

:32:11.:32:19.

time we get to the next election. So, I think the right thing is to

:32:19.:32:24.

campaign for an outright majority... Of course. And then, if there is

:32:24.:32:27.

not an outright majority, but in the event that Labour was the

:32:27.:32:32.

largest party, to look at the feasibility and desirability of

:32:32.:32:35.

coalition, consistent with the policies that you have campaigned

:32:35.:32:42.

on. What would your view be? It is up to the voters to decide. If they

:32:42.:32:45.

decide they do not want the Liberal Democrats forming any part of any

:32:45.:32:49.

government, then they will say so at the ballot box. But you could

:32:49.:32:53.

only do that if you wiped out the Liberal Democrats altogether. When

:32:53.:32:56.

voters vote for individual parties, we do not know if they are also

:32:56.:32:59.

voting for the Lib Dems to be holding the balance of power.

:32:59.:33:03.

would not rule it out in terms of doing any deal with the Liberal

:33:03.:33:07.

Democrats, in the sense that we want rid of this rotten

:33:07.:33:10.

Conservative government. But the bottom line is the trust issue, for

:33:10.:33:14.

me. The pledges that have been broken by Nick Clegg. There is no

:33:14.:33:17.

doubt that the Labour Party is the only progressive party left in the

:33:17.:33:23.

country. The voters will decide. the voters decide to make you the

:33:23.:33:28.

largest party, but without an overall majority, but the Lib Dems

:33:28.:33:31.

still have enough seats, that with them, you could form an overall

:33:31.:33:37.

majority, what would your advice be? It would be a very, very bitter

:33:37.:33:41.

pill to swallow, but if it meant that the Conservatives were removed

:33:41.:33:44.

from power, and Labour could take progressive policies to the country,

:33:44.:33:48.

then we would have to think about doing a deal. But Nick Clegg would

:33:48.:33:54.

be very much a barrier to that. Miliband has said that we could not

:33:54.:33:59.

do a deal with Nick Clegg as leader - is that still the situation, is

:33:59.:34:05.

it a sensible position to be in?. think that at this stage, 3.5 years

:34:05.:34:13.

from an election, it is very hard to lay down firm conditions, other

:34:13.:34:19.

than that we're going to campaign for a majority government. In the

:34:19.:34:23.

circumstances of the time, unionist has yet, and you decide whether

:34:23.:34:27.

you're going to be a minority government on what is called

:34:27.:34:31.

confidence and supply, where you have agreement issue by issue, or

:34:31.:34:36.

whether you can actually become a full coalition. Ian is right, full

:34:36.:34:39.

coalition has to be consistent with progressive values, and it also has

:34:39.:34:44.

to be consistent with what people have voted for Labour to achieve in

:34:44.:34:50.

government. You sound, if I may say so, a bit like a number of Tory MPs

:34:50.:34:54.

at the moment, who wish that they had not gone into coalition with

:34:54.:34:59.

the Lib Dems, and had formed a minority government on this supply

:34:59.:35:03.

and confident basis which Tessa Jowell is talking about. In the

:35:03.:35:11.

circumstances, is that not what you would really prefer? I have been

:35:11.:35:15.

called a lot of things, but never a Tory. We are stuck in a very

:35:15.:35:24.

dangerous austerity package. But I am talking about 2015. The Liberal

:35:24.:35:27.

Democrats have endorsed an austerity package which they do not

:35:27.:35:31.

believe in. We have to put a strong message to the British people,

:35:31.:35:36.

which says that if you want a progressive party in charge...

:35:36.:35:40.

getting enough stuff like that from the conference, I'm asking you a

:35:40.:35:44.

specific question, that in the circumstances of you being the

:35:44.:35:48.

largest party, and without an overall majority, would you not

:35:48.:35:52.

prefer, as many Tory MPs would have done in the same circumstance, to

:35:52.:35:59.

remain a minority government, with a supply and confident steal?

:35:59.:36:05.

believe in leaving those options open. You do not sound enthusiastic

:36:05.:36:10.

about a coalition. It depends on the numbers. If you fall so far

:36:10.:36:13.

away from having an absolute majority, then you might have to

:36:13.:36:17.

form a coalition. But otherwise, supply and demand should not be

:36:17.:36:22.

rule out. There is also a difference, if I can say, between

:36:22.:36:28.

the prospect of being a minority government, but with a sufficient

:36:28.:36:32.

number of seats to form a majority coalition with the Liberal

:36:32.:36:39.

Democrats, and being the largest party but a minority government,

:36:39.:36:43.

and having to cobbled-together enough seats with a whole lot of

:36:44.:36:50.

other minority parties. I think then, quite honestly, the price of

:36:50.:36:53.

being in government is just too high, financially, because of what

:36:53.:37:00.

they demand, and also, it stretches credibility. And understand that,

:37:00.:37:05.

but will this not change our politics? The possibility of a hung

:37:05.:37:07.

parliament in the run-up to the last election was the kind of

:37:08.:37:11.

elephant in the room, nobody talked about it, but it was there. Now

:37:11.:37:16.

that we have got a coalition, if, in the next campaign, the polls

:37:16.:37:19.

show there is likely to be no clear-cut winner, this will affect

:37:19.:37:23.

the campaign, and people like me will ask people like you what

:37:23.:37:29.

positions you're taking in the event of a coalition. It will be a

:37:29.:37:33.

different kind of election... would give you the same answer,

:37:33.:37:37.

that we are campaigning for an outright majority. But I will say,

:37:38.:37:42.

we know that, but are you prepared if we do not get it to do a deal

:37:42.:37:46.

with the Liberals? And the answer would be, of course, if we are the

:37:46.:37:50.

largest party, we would look at the possibility of coalition in order

:37:50.:37:54.

to form a majority government, consistent with the policies in our

:37:54.:38:04.

manifesto. It will affect the election campaign,, won't you?

:38:04.:38:07.

There is no doubt that it will change the way you campaign. We

:38:07.:38:17.
:38:17.:38:27.

will all be campaigning to be the On that shock revelation from Tessa

:38:27.:38:36.

Jowell, campaign to win, it's back to Jo in London. Now to the

:38:36.:38:39.

conference floor. Ed Miliband got cheers yesterday when he said he

:38:39.:38:42.

wasn't Tony Blair. But today, the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette

:38:42.:38:46.

Cooper, has told them that Tony Blair was right, at least on the

:38:46.:38:50.

subject of law and order, with his famous mantra, tough on crime,

:38:50.:38:53.

tough on the causes of crime. Remember that? We will hear what

:38:53.:38:57.

she had to stay in a moment. But first, this is what Sidique Khan

:38:57.:39:01.

had to say to conference. In the past 12 months, the challenges for

:39:01.:39:06.

the justice system have become all too apparent. The groups and

:39:06.:39:11.

campaign organisations I have met, the prisons, young offenders'

:39:11.:39:16.

institutions and courts I have visited, the judiciary and legal

:39:16.:39:21.

professionals I have listened to, and the victims whose experiences I

:39:21.:39:30.

have heard. Take one couple who, following the tragic murder of

:39:30.:39:33.

their young son, have channelled all of their energy into working

:39:33.:39:38.

towards a safer community for young people across London through a

:39:38.:39:45.

Foundation. I'm honoured to have Barry advising my policy review. As

:39:45.:39:52.

you know, I shadow the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke. Somebody

:39:52.:39:56.

once said to me that one downside of being in the shadow cabinet is

:39:56.:40:02.

that you begin to resemble the Cabinet Minister you shudder. Well,

:40:02.:40:11.

so far, I do not wear Hush puppies, don't smoke cigars, and manage to

:40:11.:40:16.

stay a week during my leader's speech. -- to stay awake. Because

:40:16.:40:21.

of Ken Clarke and his Government's policies, the ministry of justice

:40:21.:40:25.

faces a budget cut of a quarter, risking the effective functioning

:40:25.:40:31.

of our justice system. Dedicated, experienced professionals and the

:40:31.:40:34.

prison and probation service face uncertainty about the future of

:40:34.:40:40.

their crucial work. Even his own chief Inspector of Prisons, Nick

:40:40.:40:46.

Hardwick, said, this month, he has found no evidence at all of a

:40:46.:40:56.
:40:56.:41:10.

Bid will be enshrined in statute, so that the rights of bereaved

:41:10.:41:15.

families, of victims of homicide, are honoured. It will deliver

:41:15.:41:19.

effective justice and treat victims with respect and dignity.

:41:19.:41:22.

Supporting victims through all stages of the process, including

:41:22.:41:27.

the deeply traumatic experience of one a case reaches court. Under

:41:27.:41:31.

Labour, victims will be at the heart of the justice system. I will

:41:31.:41:35.

work with victims groups to make sure we get this right. Conference,

:41:35.:41:39.

the riots this summer show that we need a government which is not out

:41:39.:41:45.

of touch. Our country deserves better than what we have got. We

:41:45.:41:50.

need to make important decisions on crime and justice at the same time

:41:50.:41:55.

as making tough fiscal choices. At Ken Clarke and his government are

:41:55.:42:00.

getting these choices wrong. It will be down to us to put it right.

:42:00.:42:04.

There is only one party that can be trusted on law and order, and

:42:04.:42:12.

that's us, the Labour Party. Thank you very much. Tony Blair was right

:42:12.:42:15.

- tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, because it worked.

:42:15.:42:20.

Crime fell by 40%, the first government since records began

:42:20.:42:25.

where crime went down, not up, 7 million fewer crimes a year. That

:42:25.:42:35.
:42:35.:42:37.

is Labour's record, and we should be proud of it. But we know that

:42:37.:42:44.

crime is still too high. We want crime to fall further. But the

:42:44.:42:52.

Tories don't get it. I don't think they ever did. In 1978, Jaxx Mark

:42:52.:42:56.

came to Labour Party conference from Castleford, in my constituency,

:42:56.:43:01.

and he said of the Tories then, they do not have to live in

:43:01.:43:04.

vandalised communities, they do not have to drive the trams which have

:43:04.:43:08.

missiles thrown into the camps, they do not have to take charge of

:43:08.:43:18.
:43:18.:43:20.

the buses and deal with the rowdies. My old friend Jack was right. Can

:43:20.:43:24.

you imagine David Cameron and George Osborne dealing with the

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:35.

rowdy is? Rowdies Of their own, they can't even deal with Boris

:43:35.:43:40.

Johnson. And what is David Cameron's answer to crime? 20%

:43:40.:43:47.

front loaded cuts to the police. It is shocking. 650 police officers

:43:47.:43:53.

cut from Merseyside, 750 for Wales, 1,200 from the West Midlands,

:43:53.:43:58.

nearly 2000 officers from the Met. Right across the country, 16,000

:43:58.:44:02.

police officers lost. This is a reckless risk to take with the

:44:03.:44:11.

fight against crime. With me now, the former presenter of Crimewatch

:44:11.:44:15.

Nick Ross, also the chairman of the Jill Dando Institute of Security

:44:15.:44:19.

and Crime Science at University College London. Let's go back to

:44:19.:44:22.

the beginning, if you like, when it comes to Labour's record. That

:44:22.:44:26.

phrase, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime - did they live

:44:27.:44:32.

up to it in 13 years? Well, it is a meaningless expression, isn't it?

:44:32.:44:34.

meaningless expression, isn't it? Memorable, but meaningless. Yvette

:44:34.:44:38.

Cooper's, and was also memorable but meaningless, about Labour's

:44:38.:44:44.

record of crime going down 40%. She's a good politician, but she

:44:44.:44:48.

betrays why we cannot believe politicians, they do themselves a

:44:48.:44:53.

disservice. Crime started tumbling around 1995, it happened to be

:44:53.:44:56.

under the Conservatives. It was a trend Labour inherited and it went

:44:56.:45:01.

on steeply through labour's period. The Tories refused in opposition to

:45:01.:45:05.

acknowledge this. They come up with a whole load of nonsensical

:45:05.:45:09.

statistical rubbish to tell us that crime was not coming down. It has

:45:09.:45:12.

come down very, very fundamentally. There are Many lessons about why it

:45:12.:45:16.

came down. There are Many lessons about why we did not believe that

:45:16.:45:19.

crime would come down. The narrative they had in America we

:45:19.:45:22.

did not have here. So, great that the politicians are talking about

:45:22.:45:27.

it, but I wish they would put some more science and real fact been

:45:27.:45:32.

twit. Did they get anything right about crime reduction policies,

:45:32.:45:37.

Labour, over that period? You say that the crime rate was coming down,

:45:37.:45:40.

people were getting their cars are alarmed, whatever, but was there

:45:41.:45:43.

anything which struck you during that period that they did get

:45:43.:45:53.
:45:53.:45:54.

Don't dismiss the things you have said dismissively. Crime goes up

:45:54.:45:58.

and crime goes down but Hummer sapiens remain the same from one

:45:59.:46:03.

generation to the next. Roughly speaking, people remain the same.

:46:03.:46:07.

What changes his circumstance. If you have a society where suddenly

:46:07.:46:11.

everybody has the sort of wealth that only the ultra-rich used to

:46:11.:46:16.

have, you have to start locking your doors, like they looked theirs,

:46:16.:46:20.

or had servants to protect them. We had that belatedly so we had a

:46:20.:46:24.

crime wave. When we started looking after our positions, crime came

:46:24.:46:28.

down. Car crime, when I had my first car, if you wanted to get

:46:28.:46:34.

into it you put the window open and pulled a lever and pushed a wire

:46:34.:46:40.

together. Now it is very difficult. Are you saying the politicians

:46:40.:46:44.

cannot have influence over crime policy? Looking at the issue, the

:46:44.:46:52.

contentious issue of bobbies on the beach, it is always essential part

:46:52.:46:57.

of the argument. Yvette Cooper was saying the coalition policy will

:46:57.:47:01.

result in fewer bobbies on the beat. Is it about police on streets?

:47:02.:47:07.

is not. It is in part, but mostly it is about the design of products,

:47:07.:47:10.

services and policies. Labour didn't get it entirely wrong and

:47:10.:47:14.

the Conservatives are putting some effort in as well. We have design

:47:14.:47:18.

against crime. And standards for new houses and so forth. This is

:47:18.:47:22.

really important. It is not the dramatic stuff. One of the things

:47:22.:47:29.

politicians need to do and we as Democrats need to do, and I used to

:47:29.:47:33.

present Crimewatch, finding people on a conveyor belt and taking them

:47:33.:47:36.

to the courts. We need to recognise just is important in its own right

:47:36.:47:41.

but it has a remarkably small effect on crime rates -- justice is

:47:41.:47:47.

important. We need to move the police away from being a come --

:47:47.:47:52.

conveyor belt and being proactive and problem solving. One of the

:47:52.:47:55.

ideas the coalition has had his elected police commissioners. What

:47:55.:48:01.

do you think? It is a pretty poor system on the hole and a pretty

:48:01.:48:05.

poor idea except politically. If he did not have strong policies you

:48:05.:48:10.

have to have a strong sense of momentum, and here is an initiative.

:48:10.:48:15.

That is what Gordon Brown was doing. It will give us a sense of momentum.

:48:15.:48:20.

But where will the people get... It has not as though we are electing

:48:20.:48:25.

people. Do you want to elect your surgeons and pilots? What about

:48:25.:48:30.

somebody like you? There isn't going to be a crime Commissioner

:48:30.:48:36.

for London. My concern is that most people are going to be lay people.

:48:36.:48:43.

They will not know much about it. It is a technical business, how you

:48:43.:48:50.

drive down crime. It is not intuitive. What about victims a

:48:50.:48:58.

law? What Sadiq Khan was talking about? The case is a breath of

:48:58.:49:03.

fresh air and politics. I was on the Advisory Board for victim

:49:03.:49:08.

Support for very many years. Things have improved but the judicial

:49:08.:49:14.

system is adversarial. It is between the guy in the dock being

:49:14.:49:17.

prosecuted and the defence. Unless the witness, the victim is a

:49:17.:49:22.

witness, he or she is irrelevant to the process. It is really important

:49:22.:49:25.

they should be brought in. It will not help reduce crime but it will

:49:25.:49:29.

help us get a better sense of Justice Vos up what about the

:49:29.:49:38.

review, this independent heavy Is it a bit after the event, Labour

:49:38.:49:43.

suggesting this? Yes but when you are in power nobody wants to

:49:43.:49:47.

acknowledge they do not know what they're doing. At the first step

:49:47.:49:52.

Labour is taking is being open about it. We do not understand what

:49:52.:49:58.

causes crime to rise and fall. The Jill Dando is a Jew does Lord

:49:58.:50:08.
:50:08.:50:11.

Stevens does as well. -- Jill Dando We need to have a different

:50:11.:50:15.

attitude to policing. We have to detach from running after things

:50:16.:50:22.

after the event. Thinking more about what police do in football

:50:22.:50:27.

matches, terrorism, organised crime getting upstream. We need to move

:50:28.:50:33.

the whole thing, as we have learned in so many other areas of life,

:50:33.:50:36.

public health is better than patching people up afterwards.

:50:36.:50:41.

is a sort of antiquated service. It these to be modernised and run a

:50:41.:50:44.

little bit more efficiently -- needs to be. Is that what you're

:50:44.:50:49.

saying? Yes, but I'm not saying it will lease to be new. When the

:50:49.:50:53.

police service was founded in 1827 the founders would be horrified at

:50:53.:50:57.

the idea of the police not being detectives. They would have fought

:50:57.:51:01.

against it and they did. Why should police be detectives? We need to

:51:01.:51:10.

think about it. Thank you, and across. Before we go, we will get

:51:10.:51:14.

the answer to yesterday's competition. But back to Andrew

:51:14.:51:19.

first. I am joined by the shadow home

:51:19.:51:23.

secretary, Yvette Cooper. Welcome. We used to talk about Thatcher's

:51:23.:51:28.

children. Do you accept some responsibility for the of riots

:51:28.:51:33.

this summer? In a sense, they were Labour's children. I think you

:51:33.:51:36.

should always do more, go further to get people out of a life of

:51:36.:51:41.

crime. It was shocking what happened in the summer. Crime fell

:51:41.:51:45.

by 40% during Labour's period and that included fewer young people

:51:45.:51:49.

before the riots, few young people going into crime, fewer young

:51:49.:51:53.

offenders. But we ended up with riots, people who were grown-up,

:51:53.:51:58.

not all of them, obviously, but most, their formative experience,

:51:58.:52:03.

school, early life, had been under a Labour government. They were

:52:03.:52:08.

Labour's children. The fact they have been fewer young offenders is

:52:08.:52:11.

important progress. But of course it is the case that there were a

:52:11.:52:15.

lot of those young people, people in their 20s, because some of them

:52:15.:52:19.

were older. Who we have not managed to stop getting into a life of

:52:19.:52:23.

crime. That is why you always need to do more. I would like to see a

:52:23.:52:26.

strong implementation of some of the work being done in Boston and

:52:26.:52:31.

Hackney that targets the gangs. We have set out ways that you could

:52:31.:52:34.

fund that and the Government could start doing it now, so you do not

:52:34.:52:40.

have any repeat of the violence next summer. You have talked about

:52:40.:52:48.

the fall in crime under Labour and boasted about it. That has to be

:52:48.:52:53.

caveat it by the fact it ended in the worst rioting we have seen in a

:52:53.:53:03.
:53:03.:53:04.

generation I spoke to. I spoke to police officers and a were right

:53:04.:53:07.

about public order pressures, the fear of a long, hot summer.

:53:07.:53:12.

they have a sense something would happen? Yes, several senior police

:53:12.:53:15.

officers were worried something would happen. For everybody else it

:53:15.:53:21.

was a surprise for us up exactly. It was a shock. You see people out

:53:21.:53:27.

of control, off the rails. And a sense that the fact the police were

:53:27.:53:33.

not able to hold the streets on the first night made it escalate.

:53:34.:53:38.

People thought they could get away with it. They thought the law would

:53:38.:53:43.

not be enforced. But if you saw it was a long, hot summer, it is all

:53:43.:53:49.

the more surprising that they left as undefended on the first night.

:53:49.:53:52.

don't think the police have anticipated how fast the writers

:53:52.:53:56.

would gather. One police officer said he had never in a 20 year

:53:56.:54:01.

career seen a crowd gathered that fast. And that his social media, a

:54:01.:54:05.

rolling news. But you have to respond to that. If criminals can

:54:05.:54:08.

gather quickly that the police need together quickly. And that means it

:54:09.:54:12.

is madness to make the police officer cuts. You set up the

:54:12.:54:17.

commission on the future of policing. You have chosen John

:54:17.:54:23.

Stevens, who has already attacked the Government's idea of Police

:54:23.:54:27.

Commissioner's -- elected to police commissioners. You have picked Tim

:54:27.:54:31.

Brain, who has criticised the Government cuts already. It sounds

:54:31.:54:34.

like the independent commission is full of people who have already

:54:34.:54:40.

made up their minds what the coalition is doing is wrong and

:54:40.:54:45.

what you will be doing is right. Not very independent. Lord Stevens

:54:45.:54:52.

is across printer in the House of Lords. -- is a crossbencher. All

:54:52.:54:58.

the police are attacking government policy. It makes it easy to find

:54:58.:55:02.

much as police officers but experts on crime, experts on how to bring

:55:02.:55:06.

crime down, all saying that what the Government is doing is madness.

:55:06.:55:10.

You will know that when the public sector gets United to attack those

:55:10.:55:14.

trying to reform it, as Mr Blair reminded us, you end up with scars

:55:14.:55:19.

on your back. It doesn't make them wrong. I can't find anybody who

:55:19.:55:23.

supports what the Government is doing. Anybody who supports 16,000

:55:23.:55:28.

cuts to police officers, support this is some shall organisation and

:55:28.:55:32.

chaos that they are proposing -- support the substantial

:55:32.:55:36.

reorganisation and chaos. Rather than big vision for the future.

:55:36.:55:45.

speak to policemen, and I get a sense that there is a crying need

:55:45.:55:49.

of the police, ordinary police, for a better quality of leadership and

:55:49.:55:54.

a better way their leaders are. It. Do you say that? There are some

:55:54.:55:58.

excellent police leaders. In the 21st century what you want is to

:55:58.:56:01.

draw on the best leadership, promote people fast, and have

:56:01.:56:06.

flexibility as well. I'm sure that there are issues around

:56:06.:56:08.

professionalisation and work force and those are things that will be

:56:08.:56:14.

covered as part of the review. There has been a tendency for

:56:14.:56:17.

ministers to undermine the police in the way they have been handling

:56:17.:56:24.

it and play at being armchair constables. I think some of the

:56:24.:56:31.

things we have been doing... It it is because they have no faith in

:56:31.:56:37.

the police. In August, when things were topping over the edge and we

:56:37.:56:41.

were all concerned, when we did not know whether the violence would be

:56:41.:56:44.

repeated, on that Tuesday, we should have been backing the police

:56:44.:56:47.

and backing respect for the police and the rule of law. The way they

:56:47.:56:53.

handled that, the way they seem to be knocking the police and -- in

:56:53.:57:00.

those sensitive few days was undermining the police at a time

:57:00.:57:04.

when we needed to support them most. There has been a claim that in the

:57:04.:57:08.

event of another leadership contest, your husband would sand if -- stand

:57:08.:57:13.

aside for you. Do you believe him? He said that Ed Miliband was doing

:57:13.:57:20.

a great job and he would carry on being leader for many years to come.

:57:20.:57:25.

Did he say he would not run for leadership again and that he was

:57:25.:57:31.

sad aside for you? Tony take his word,? That is what he said to me

:57:31.:57:36.

before we had the last leadership? These husbands, you cannot trust

:57:36.:57:44.

the! You don't think he will run again as leader? He has been there,

:57:44.:57:49.

done that. He is working very hard and doing a good job. You haven't

:57:49.:57:58.

ruled yourself out. You do always say that. Thank you for being with

:57:58.:58:04.

us. Before we go, time for the answer to the competition. Back in

:58:04.:58:13.

The answer was 1950, Clement Attlee, Winston Churchill, the Korean war

:58:13.:58:20.

were all in there. Nick, you can pick the winner. Everybody here got

:58:20.:58:30.
:58:30.:58:33.

this right? They did. Pick our winner. It is Matthew... Matthew

:58:33.:58:43.
:58:43.:58:47.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS