13/10/2011 Daily Politics


13/10/2011

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Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The moment of

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victory in Libya looks imminent. The new government there's on the

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brink of saying the country is clear Gaddafy's forces. Meanwhile,

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here at home, the Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, is still under fire. Can

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you continue if the job? continuing to do what is needed,

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focusing on defence issues. Thank you very much. We'll have the

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latest. We'll also take a look at what's happened to crime in Croydon

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after the summer riots. Have all the arrests made an impact on how

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safe it is to walk the streets? And it's that time again - the

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Westminster Dog of the Year. We'll find out which pooch is top dog.

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There's no dog in the studio this year. I'm told that Foxy Knoxy's

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agent has been holding out for double money. All that in the next

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half hour. Joining us throughout the programme, the former MP for

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Tatton, war correspondent and now poet, Martin Bell. Good to be here.

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Published last week. But first, the Foreign Secretary, William Hague,

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is expected to make a statement in the Commons within the next few

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minutes. It's on the latest situation in Libya and there is

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speculation that he'll say that it is almost clear of resistance to

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the new government. Meanwhile, Liam Fox is still being staked out by

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half of Fleet Street here at home. Within the last few moments MPs had

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this to say about the Defence Secretary in the House of Commons.

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Yesterday, the Prime Minister promised to look -- to publish a

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list of meetings with the Defence Secretary and Adam Werritty. When

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will this list be published? Following the BBC's revelations of

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secretive wealthy donors running a shadow operation at the heart of

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one of Whitehall's most sensitive government departments, what are

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the implications for accountibility and probity? On her first question,

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I'm sure the Prime Minister will honour the undertaking he gave

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yesterday on the list of visits to ministers. That is as soon as the

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information has been dealt with. On the earth -- other issue, the

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Cabinet Secretary is dealing with all issues and will complete his

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inquiry as soon as he can. George Young there. We are

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expecting the Foreign Secretary to make a statement probably including

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some in terms of declaring victory or at least Libya free. Is it

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difficult to determine that moment of victory, if you like, in these

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sorts of circumstances? Yes, I think in a long-running war, which

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doesn't necessarily involve regular forces, and a lot of rumours, but

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these ones are holding out. I think the moment of victory has just

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about arrived. As forceful humanitarian interventions go, I

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think this one has worked. Would you say you were a fan generally of

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a policy of liberal intervention? The Government will say it has been

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hugely successful and they did the right thing? Is it legal and

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proportion nailt and supported and doable? -- proportionate and

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supported and doable? This one has. It has not been America-led and the

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boots on the ground are those of the Lybians. That is the difference,

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looking back to Bosnia, boots on the ground become key or not as it

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was in Libya? That depends how they are used. We had 34,000 UN troops

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on the ground at the time of the Srebrenica massacre. Each case is

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different. Finally we got it right and good for those. Very different

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from Iraq? Totally and Afghanistan. I don't see how we could have stood

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back and see that happen to beng. He said he would go from --

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Benghazi. He said he would go from house to house and grab people out

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and kill them. He would have done, since he has previous. We are

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always criticising politicians, but when they get it right, give them

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the cid. Liam Fox - I -- credit. Liam Fox, we have a rough idea. The

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picture is clear now that there were clearly a group of Tories,

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quite wealthy, very wealthy in some cases and they were bank rolling a

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Shadow office in the shape of Mr Werritty. Because Liam Fox didn't

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quite trust the Cameroons or the Civil Service and they were very

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pro-Israel and they were Thatcherite in tradition and that

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seems to be what happened. Is that a sacking offence? I think his

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position is untenable. I think we can wait a few more days and if it

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turns out that Mr Werritty got any monetary advantage from his

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friendship with Dr Fox. The people I'm concerned for are those out

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deployed in far-flung places. This has to be distracting for the

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Defence Secretary. His judgment has to be called into question. I think

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we have a few more days. I'm in favour of not hounding people, but

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it will become clear in a very short time. I will be surprised if

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in a week's time he's still in his post. I thought at the weekend he

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might well survive. As the week's gone on and this drip, drip and we

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have now found out what has happened and Mr Werritty's position

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becomes more obvious, it does seem that the ministerial rules have

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been bent, if not broken? Yes. As previous explanations come to be

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shot full of holes and people say things when turn out to be not

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entirely true. It's the old case of the cover-up doing the damage.

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shall see. It will be another weekend of news stories, no doubt.

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We all remember the riots. The pictures scarred the towns and

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cities are still in our memories. These pictures are from Croydon.

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This morning, as guidelines have been published for people involved

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in rioting, Gavin Barwell, a Croydon MP, claims to have seen

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evidence that crime has now gone down dramatically in the area. We

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have going to speak to him in one moment, but first here is Jo on how

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the courts delts withlet aftermath. Following the -- dealt with the

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aftermath. Following the riots, 1 ,715 had appeared in court and 73%

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had a previous caution or conviction. This chimed with Ken

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Clarke, when he said that a hardcore of criminal classes were

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involved. The courts got tough. 43% of offenders tried at a

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Magistrates' Court received an immediate custodial sentence,

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compared to 12% for similar offences in England and Wales in

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2010. The average custodial sentence was 5.1 months, compared

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to 2.5 the year before. At Crown Court the average sentence was 18.5

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months, compared with 11.3 months in 2010. Now, new proposals have

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been set out by the Sentencing Council for England and Wales. They

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are designed to take into account the harm inflicted on the victim.

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Under the new guidelines, those who are guilty of domestic burglaries,

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who normally get up to 26 weeks in jail, could see a sentence of up to

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two years, if the crime took place during a riot. Gavin Barwell is now

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with us. Welcome to the programme. This is a first for you? It is.

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Let's get straight to the fact in this. What figures have you seen

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and what do they tell us? I've seen some figures from my borough

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commander in Croydon, which show if you look at the four-week period

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after the riots and the period including the riots, there has been

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a significant reduction in property crime. You would expect that. There

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has been a reduction of 20% in violent crime. That shows very

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clearly it seems to me that putting the offenders away has worked in

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terms of reducing crime in the short term. I understand that. I'm

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puzzled by the period comparison if it tells us very much. You are

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saying the first period includes the riots? It does. Wouldn't a

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better comparison be, say, the four weeks after the riots, with four

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weeks in June or in April? Sure. I hope when we get the investigation

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complete we'll see all of that data. On the property crime you are

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making a perfectly fair point, because it's an unfair comparison,

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but there were very few offences of violent crime on 8th August, that

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people have been prosecuted for. It shows a significant reduction.

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conclusion do you draw from this? I they we are offered on crime and

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punishment a false choice, with some saying we need to put people

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away for longer and others say prison doesn't work, we need to

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improve rehabilitation and I think there is merit in both. Prison does

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work in the short term. It gets them off the streets and make

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Croydon a safer place, but as Ken Clarke argues in the longer term,

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it doesn't change people's behaviour patterns, so when they

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come out they are very likely to reoffend. What I'll argue this

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afternoon in the House is we are being offered a false choice.

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Obviously, it is axiomatic, if you put the guys away there will be

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less crime on the streets. Couldn't there be a play that after a riot

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and you see this in the United States also, people are exhausted,

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even the criminals are exhausted, and they need a rest? Sure. Also,

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there are lots of police around and there is lots of publicity and you

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lie low. By the way, I've nicked all this stuff and I have to fence

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it, so I'm busy doing that. Surely there must be an element of post-

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riot exhaustion? There is an effect that we saw more policing after the

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riots than on the day itself. What we'll need to see is data for the

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next few months while people are serving sentences to see if the

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effect is prolonged. My constituents want to see the

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maintenance of the visible policing. Why are we dependent on you coming

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to us with this information, which I understand is unofficial and it

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was leaked to you. Why - if this was a programme in New York we

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would be able to through their computer system tell you that crime

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precinct by precinct in the past 24 hours officially. Why don't we have

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that here? We are beginning to get it. The Government has started the

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crime mapping process, but there is a time lag. Historically, there has

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been far too little information that has allowed people to make the

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mapgz. There is the time lag -- mappings. There is the time lag

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that won't help that. We'll get the internal recrew across London and

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that will give myself and people like yourselves a lot more data.

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I say, I can see the point that crime's going down because a lot of

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the rioters with previous convictions have been put away and

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the streets a bit safer for a while. Even if you put them away for

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longer than you normally do, they will get out and they won't have

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been in prison long enough for rehabilitation to matter, so

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doesn't crime spike up again? agree with what Ken Clarke says.

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The initial story - You don't agree with him on not putting people away,

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do you? We are seeing that the guidelines are going to be a bit

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tougher, but permly I would like to see us go further still. I think

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also one of the things that very clear from the evidence is far from

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being spontaneous, in Croydon there was a significant organisation and

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gang culture was at the core of what happened in our town, so I'm

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very much looking forward to the stailt from Iain Duncan Smith and

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the Home Secretary about -- statement from Iain Duncan Smith

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and the Home Secretary about that. One final question to you for the

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moment, we know from international experience and we know now from coy

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done, that if you put a lot of police on the streets crime tends

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to fall. And your government is cutting police numbers. That can't

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be right, can it? In London this year we have seen a slight increase,

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but there is a danger going forward. Boris, as I tried to establish at

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the Tory conference, Boris Johnson and the Home Secretary can't be

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right. If he says he has 1,000 more police officers and he needs it to

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keep it down, so if you take 16,000 away in the rest of the country and

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that won't effect crime, one or the other is wrong? The Prime

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Minister's response was that we would see far more officers on the

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streets. Clearly, numbers is an issue. And you are cutting the

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numbers? My view is the police can't be expempt from savings and

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there are ways of saving without cutting numbers, but I've made it

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clear to the Prime Minister in the House that I would not favour

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anything that is actually going to reduce the front-line policing in

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my town. My constituents don't want to see that. Let me bring in Martin

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Bell in. What is your take? I used to be the BBC's riots correspondent.

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I have been from Chicago to Belfast. You didn't wear a helmet?

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certainly didn't. We had no body armour. The most serious riots

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never go on for four days because people get completely exhausted.

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Has Croydon recovered from the sense of shock? No, I think the

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damage to the reputation as a town and also the knowledge that living

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in the town there are people who are behaving like this in the

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community is going to take a long I think of Croydon as an affluent

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suburb. It is a very mixed community. There is some damage but

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there is also a positive side to this story. There were huge numbers

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of people look came out to help to clear up at the store. And they are

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going to rebuild it? Yes. If you look at the way that Manchester

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recovered from the IRA attack, these things can be turned into a

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positive. That is the job - to turn it around.

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Croydon was Nicholas Sarkozy's favourite town. He compared it with

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Paris. That was before the riots! Thank you for coming on.

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MPs will always tell you about ha- ha the work - the 14-hour days, the

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pressure to get re-elected - and that is all before they even think

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about climbing the greasy pole to the top. -- MPs will always tell

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you about how hard they work. According to a recent report, we

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should be encouraged in our MPs to be lazier. -- encouraging our MPs.

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Don't be fooled by appearances, life at Westminster can be jolly

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tough sometimes, especially if you're an MP. There is all that

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"here, here close good business to get the hang of, then they expect

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you to turn up to vote at all ours of the day and night. There is a

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school of thought that says that the best way to get to the top in

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politics is to do less. Peter Taylor reckons that the future

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belongs to the lazy. Malaysia's air negative term. I think it is a

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positive thing. There is an approach to doing things in the

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most efficient way. It is a combination of intelligence and

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laziness. And you can achieve so much more by going that way.

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good in theory, but has anyone actually got to the top and stayed

:17:38.:17:43.

there without trying too hard? classic example is Ronald Reagan,

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who was unbelievably lazy. People would go to visit him and he would

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talk also -- for several Lars and give them a tour of the White House.

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-- for several hours. How do you do it? If you want to be this standard,

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good and conscientious MP, you do all your local staff, supporting

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the surgeries and so forth. If you want to become Prime Minister, you

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want to fork is higher. It is about networking and socialising and been

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involved in the big, important stuff. Are some of the new members

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of Labour's sham -- Shadow Cabinet real-life examples? People have

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leapt into the Shadow Cabinet, having been newcomers a year ago or

:18:37.:18:46.

18 months ago. It is probably a good idea because it will allow

:18:46.:18:51.

them to learn their briefs and be ready for office if Labour ever

:18:51.:18:56.

gets back in our lifetime. Finally, do not be embarrassed by your

:18:56.:19:06.
:19:06.:19:07.

lethargy, embrace Europe in a laziness. -- you're in our laziness.

:19:07.:19:12.

I think it is the right approach. Next time you see a politician or

:19:12.:19:15.

reporter taking the weight off their feet, remember they are not

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being lazy, they are just being efficient. Honest!

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Wake up, Andrew! It is like the Daily Politics and

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ideas room. Were you Ali c m p or

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unproductively busy? I did not sufficiently understand the

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procedures of the House of Commons so I made a very slow start but I

:19:42.:19:48.

think I got there in the end. I discovered that too many people

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were discovered -- expecting me to be a super councillor. A you were

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in a unique position. It is true that people who are successful and

:19:57.:20:01.

efficient with their time get more done and do not get overstretched

:20:01.:20:05.

in the same way as other people. The classic clip from that was

:20:05.:20:11.

Thatcher and Reagan. I was the correspondent in Washington during

:20:11.:20:17.

that political romance. He worked very short hours. For the first six

:20:17.:20:24.

years he she came over every year - - for the first six years she came

:20:24.:20:28.

over every year. Firstly, she told him up what she thought and then

:20:28.:20:34.

have told him what he thought. -- and then told him. I interviewed

:20:34.:20:38.

him in the Oval Office ones. I forget what it was, some important

:20:38.:20:45.

issue, and he said, Andrew, you are quite right - it is so serious it

:20:45.:20:49.

is giving me sleepless afternoons. How could you be that relaxed, even

:20:49.:20:53.

if you did surround yourself with very good people? Surely, as head

:20:53.:20:59.

of state, you have to do a certain amount of legwork. He concentrated

:20:59.:21:04.

on the ceremonious things. He was the best communicator until the

:21:04.:21:08.

President incumbent. He loved been commander-in-chief, and he let

:21:08.:21:15.

other people to the functioning part. Until about 1986 it went well.

:21:15.:21:20.

I had to persuade people that this was not as stupid person but a

:21:20.:21:24.

formidable operator. One of the examples here was that Gordon Brown

:21:24.:21:31.

used to have the reputation, and he used to say, I will strive harder,

:21:31.:21:36.

work harder. In the end, he did not achieve things. Even when he went

:21:36.:21:39.

on holiday in Suffolk he said, I have got to get on with the job.

:21:40.:21:46.

The whole idea was to get away with it -- away from it.

:21:46.:21:50.

At some stage, he was getting up so early that he met himself going to

:21:50.:21:56.

bed. It is the worst thing to do. What you really need is a good

:21:56.:22:01.

night's sleep, think about it a bit and then get on with it. You cannot

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drive yourself into the ground. David Cameron is seen now as a

:22:06.:22:10.

slightly more relaxed type. He does not do quite the number of hours.

:22:10.:22:16.

Does it matter? You guys are in the loop. Has he got it right now?

:22:16.:22:22.

I think, on a day-to-day basis, it seems more manageable. There will

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be those who will argue that he has not been hungry enough and does not

:22:26.:22:31.

work hard enough. If you end up in the House of

:22:31.:22:38.

Commons it is quite hard work. you had no support system. You need

:22:38.:22:47.

a party. I had the best Parliamentary Secretary ever.

:22:47.:22:53.

For the uninitiated, to letter -- Twitter is a way of texting your

:22:53.:22:58.

thoughts to the world, or at least those who follow you. Some MPs have

:22:58.:23:02.

got fed up with others staring at their mobile phones the whole time

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during debates, so they have put down a motion to ban a habit. It is

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due to be debated any time now. I caught up with Luciana Berger, who

:23:14.:23:20.

likes to tweet, and James Gray, who wants her to stop. I started by

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asking James Gray if all mobile devices should be banned. They

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should be used for the business in hand. You can use them for urgent

:23:27.:23:31.

messages coming in or going out. I was recently chairing a committee

:23:31.:23:36.

upstairs about pensions and benefits reform. Two-thirds of

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people and the committee were staring at a device of some sort.

:23:41.:23:44.

That just means they are not concentrating on the debate in

:23:44.:23:48.

question. From outside, it looks terrible, looking at all these

:23:48.:23:52.

people in the chamber fiddling with electronic devices. Let us use them

:23:52.:23:58.

for a minimal amount of time, maybe the odd tweak here and there, maybe

:23:58.:24:02.

instead of using paper, but do not let us have a chamber full of

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people staring at screens. You have a point there. It is distracting if

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people are staring at the screen. Surely they cannot be concentrating

:24:10.:24:14.

on the debate. The main motion we are discussing today specifically

:24:14.:24:19.

says that we should only use hand- held devices with decorum. That is

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the main point back. I am concerned about the amendment being proposed

:24:24.:24:31.

which says that you can only send and receive urgent messages. That

:24:31.:24:35.

will prevent MPs from Tooting. That is what I am going to talk about in

:24:35.:24:41.

the debate. What does it mean, all with decorum? People can still sit

:24:41.:24:46.

there and use electronic devices and it will not be, in their view,

:24:46.:24:51.

with decorum. It is also going to deal with what is and is not an

:24:51.:24:55.

urgent message. As MPs, we take responsibility for what we do or do

:24:55.:25:00.

not do in the chamber. I except that me and my colleagues will do

:25:00.:25:05.

that and, therefore, debate -- the debate today is about what that

:25:05.:25:10.

should be. There is a bit of self- regulation there, James. You cannot

:25:10.:25:15.

ask people what they are doing. If the chairman knows that you should

:25:15.:25:21.

only be using these devices for work that is going on in the

:25:21.:25:25.

chamber and he sees someone doing something that is not pertinent, he

:25:25.:25:29.

can intervene and say, the rules of the House are that you should not

:25:29.:25:34.

be doing that. If we do not get my amendment through today we will

:25:35.:25:38.

find that the chamber of a House of Commons and the committees will be

:25:38.:25:44.

full of people doing things with their devices. It will look

:25:44.:25:48.

terrible from the point of view of people outside looking in. We get

:25:48.:25:51.

complaints at the moment that no- one is in the chamber. Look to the

:25:52.:25:54.

future and the complaint will be, all right, they are in the chamber

:25:54.:26:00.

but they are not paying attention to the debate. I would like to see

:26:00.:26:04.

minimal use of them just for the purposes of concentrating on the

:26:04.:26:09.

debate in hand. Why do you think that meeting has taken off in the

:26:09.:26:13.

world it -- in the way it has? live in the 21st century ad

:26:13.:26:18.

tweeting is just one way of better engaging and communicating with our

:26:18.:26:22.

constituency to whom we are accountable. The response is that I

:26:22.:26:25.

have had, and I have asked the question of whether we should

:26:25.:26:35.
:26:35.:26:36.

continue to tweet, -- the responses that I have had our that people

:26:36.:26:41.

find it engaging. The death lobby in particular finds it useful.

:26:41.:26:48.

Who do you follow most of all? follow and lots of people. Mostly

:26:48.:26:52.

it is organisations and people in and around my constituency. And you,

:26:52.:26:57.

James? I am never sure who is looking and who is listening to

:26:58.:27:04.

what one says on Twitter. I am not a dinosaur, I look at it. I think

:27:04.:27:08.

there is plenty of room for Twitter and all of these other things. The

:27:08.:27:13.

question is about how much of it should be done during a technical

:27:13.:27:17.

debate in the House of Commons. We should be listening to detailed

:27:18.:27:22.

arguments, coming up with alternative views, and not fiddling

:27:22.:27:28.

about with electronic devices. Let us pick up on that point might.

:27:28.:27:34.

The issue is whether you should be tweeting from the chamber. What is

:27:34.:27:39.

your view? If you ever go to war with the British Army, you will

:27:40.:27:43.

find commanders telling people to minimise and concentrate on the

:27:43.:27:48.

business in hand. It is very depressing in the House divide

:27:48.:27:54.

people not paying any attention at all. They did not have Twitter in

:27:54.:27:57.

those days. What is the point of having a debate if people do not

:27:57.:28:05.

listen to it? Except that Luciana's point is that they are did --

:28:05.:28:08.

tweeting about the debate itself. But how do you not?

:28:09.:28:16.

Before we go we have to announce the winner of the yesterday's Guess

:28:16.:28:26.
:28:26.:28:36.

the Year competition. It was Susan Emmett from All Saints near Brigg.

:28:36.:28:41.

Thank you to all other guests. I will be back later but it -- way to

:28:41.:28:49.

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