19/10/2011 Daily Politics


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19/10/2011

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are in Westminster with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the other stories of the day. Guests include Caroline Spelman and Chuka Umunna.


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LineFromTo

Good morning. This is the Daily Politics.

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There've been angry clashes at Dale Farm in Essex where dozens of riot

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police have entered the camp to clear the illegal part of the

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travellers' site. Two people were tasered this morning and one person,

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so far, has been arrested. Officers were targeted with bricks and

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rubble. We'll have the latest. Mervyn King warns time is running

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out to solve the world economy. The governor of the Bank of England

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says the recovery has gone off track and the consequences will

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"inflict pain on everyone". Is our green and pleasant land

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about to be ruined by the Government's proposed planning

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legislation? Or is there a whiff of a U-turn on the horizon?

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And talking of the countryside, as the EU prepares to reform the

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Common Agricultural policy, we hear from one farmer who says it's a

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lost opportunity. Yes all that and more, including

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The next 90 minutes of TV bronze. We worry about the bureaucratic

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proposals. And we worry about whether we are less competitive

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rather than more competitive. All that and more, including Prime

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Minister's Questions. Coming up in the next 90 minutes of TV bronze.

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See how self-effacing we are! There is a terrible smell of blue in the

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studio. Have you gone back to sniffing? No, I took my nail

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varnish off before. And with us for the duration we have a match made

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in heaven. Indeed the Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher of Westminster.

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The Environment Secretary, Caroline Spelman, and the newly-promoted

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:02:13.:02:21.

Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umanna. The BBC pronunciation

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department scores they first. Welcome to you both.

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First this morning let's turn to events at Dale Farm in Essex, where

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after a long, legal battle riot police and bailiffs moved in this

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morning to evict travellers, many of whom have lived there for over a

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decade. Our correspondent is there. What is the latest?

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The police and the bailiffs are still trying to dismantle the main

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gate of Dale Farm. The 40 ft barrier. They went into the site

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from the other side, from the friends behind the back. They went

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in pretty swiftly and used Taser gun as and rocks and other missiles

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were thrown at the police. And they are trying to get the protesters

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down of the scaffolding, so they can clear away the barricades at

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the front and get the emergency vehicles in. They need to put out

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at least one fire that is burning inside Dale Farm and begin the

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process of clearing the site of those illegal homes. It looks as if

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the resistance is coming from the protesters as much as the

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travellers, is this going to be a long, drawn-out process? I think it

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is, I think the council was initially planning for this to take

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eight weeks, and that was a month ago. We have had all of the legal

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challenges since then. Although the number of travellers inside Dale

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Farm and supporters have dwindled, we think most of the children are

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already out. Some of the caravans have left. The number of supporters,

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there were about 100 a few weeks ago, now down to about a couple of

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dozen. It is an easier operation than it might of been, and some are

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offering various degrees of resistance. Others are resisting

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more peacefully. This is going to be a drawn-out process, not just

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securing the site, but beginning the removal of those homes. Thanks

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very much for the update. Now, earlier I spoke to the local

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MP for the area, John Barron. I began by asking him whether he had

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any sympathy for the families who were being evicted. These are

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families that have broken the law. We cannot have in this country, our

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law for one group of people and a law for another group of people.

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These traveller families have been offered alternative accommodation.

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They have refused that because they deem it to be bricks and mortar.

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There are other alternative authorised sites around the country,

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but they said they do not want to travel. Also the council has an

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obligation to look after the elderly, the young and the

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vulnerable from the site. Those that are displaced from the site.

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Doesn't the council take some responsibility for having taken so

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long to sort this out. After 10 years surely they have earned some

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right to stay? The previous Government stock the council from

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taking some action. But there were periods in the past, for up to two

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years, the Labour Government stock Basildon council from taking action.

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In that period, the site quadrupled in size. It is not local residents

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fault and that they have been landed in this situation. Now we

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have had to go through the courts, which has taken time. What impact

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has that had on the wider constituency? What the law abiding

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majority want and local people want is the law enforced equitably.

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Otherwise it is the law-abiding society being prejudiced against.

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What message would it send out to everybody else? Everybody would say,

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if they can do it, why can't we get away with it and we would have

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chaos. Caroline Spelman, has this been a sensible use of money? �22

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million so far. You could have given them all a house? You cannot

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have one law for the travelling community and a law for the settled

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community. Everybody knows, you cannot just occupy a piece of green

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belt land, green meadow, and rip off the turf and build what you

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want. You have to have planning for mission. You let plenty of tents in

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Westminster Square. If I put a tent in Hyde Park you would arrest me?

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That is a separate issues. It is the same point? No, we need more

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authorised sites for the travelling community. We provide more? Yes,

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the new Government said we would provide an incentive to local

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authorities that provide authorised sites for travellers. They would

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have greater powers to enforce the law than on unauthorised sites.

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Basildon has done its bit. But some of the surrounding councils don't

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have provision for travellers. It is important that we provide for

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both the travelling community, but make sure the law is upheld for

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both the settled and the travelling community. They have been there for

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10 years, where do they go now? they want to settle in Basildon,

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like you or I want to settle in Basildon. If we were homeless

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tomorrow we become a priority on the house and Liszt in Basildon.

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That is if they want to settle her. A lot of these are fixed structures.

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If that is what they want to do, prioritising the elderly, the

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children and families. If you want to settle in a local authority area

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and you are without a roof, you are homeless, you become a priority on

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that housing list. Isn't that right, they have put a permanent

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structures which means they are not travel as any more. Why should they

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be able to do what the rest of us cannot do? We cannot just go up and

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put houses up where we feel like it? It is important the law is a

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poll but I wonder if there is a better way for the law to be upheld.

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I don't know the answer. I have a site opposite might constituency.

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These pictures are unprecedented. People having Taser gun as used on

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them, and after this situation has been dealt with, Basildon council

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will carry out an inquiry to see if they handled it correctly and

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whether it could have been handled better. It sounds like you would

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like your policy to be different than the Government's, but you

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haven't got one? I am just being honest. There is no point in me

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expressing huge outrage for the sake of doing so. Most people

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watching this will look at that and think it is not every day you see

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something like that happening. has taken 10 years? As I understand

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it, they actually own the site but they're not allowed to build on it.

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Part of it, they have legitimate planning. It is the part they

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don't? Absolutely. One can either criticise a particular situation

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and seek to learn from it, and I think that is what needs to happen.

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Actually, the problem does go back a long way to a change in the Lord

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John Prescott made. One of the difficulties is, councils have

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spent taxpayers' money trying to tackle illegal or unauthorised

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encampments. When we formed the Government we made a conscious

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decision to change the law, to make sure we are able to answer this

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question about how do you make sure there is an enforcement of the law

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that you can make it work. But, there is plenty of provision for

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those who want to travel. I think the package the Government has come

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up with is the right one. We shall see how events develop today and

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tomorrow as well. Now, listen carefully because this

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is complicated but yesterday the Backbench Business Committee voted

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to hold a debate on holding a vote to have a referendum on Britain's

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membership of the European Union. We reported it on the programme

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yesterday. Now many backbench Conservatives - and we know what a

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lot of them think of the EU - may not be over the moon to hear that

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David Cameron will order his MPs to vote against holding a referendum.

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The Conservative MP, David Nuttall, who is expected to propose the

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motion, next week is on College Green. How many Conservative MPs do

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you expect to join you in this? Already we know from the order

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paper that there are dozens and dozens of Conservative MPs who have

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signed this motion. The total number of names on here, we have

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had double more added this morning and we are up to 16 games to back

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his emotions. Across all parties! As a Conservative MPs, did you say

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60 MPs across all parties? Yes, across all parties. The vast

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majority are Conservatives. There are some Labour members who had

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signed. What about the Liberal Democrats? Would you be expecting

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many more of those MPs to sign because it was in their manifesto?

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Up to now, no Liberal Democrats have signed, but I would expect

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them to sign it because after all it was in their manifesto. Lots of

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voters who voted for them will want to see this motion passed next week

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and they can have a say on this vital issue. I suppose one might

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ask you did not stand on a platform and the Conservatives did not stand

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on a platform for an in and out referendum. Do you have a mandate

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for this? It is 36 years since we had a referendum on this issue. The

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Conservatives at the last election stood on a platform at wanting to

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renegotiate powers. This is provided for in the referendum I am

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proposing. It is in line with what we stood on. I believe if this

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legislation was passed, it would strengthen the hand of the

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Government in any negotiations with the rest of the European nations.

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It won't be binding will it, it will be indicative? I believe if

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the House of Commons passes this motion, any Government would be

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hard-pressed to ignore the Democratic will of the British

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people as expressed through their democratically elected Members of

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Parliament. You cannot be surprised David Parliament is going to try

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and obviously get MPs not to support it? What matters is what is

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good for the country and British businesses who are Bob down by red

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tape from Brussels. They have to compete on the world stage and it

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is about British jobs and securing a flourishing future of the three

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enterprise in this country. That's what is behind this. Imagine if

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there was the vote and Britain did leave the EU, what would happen in

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terms of trade? We are long way from that. You are asking people to

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vote, so what would happen? believe that as a trading nation,

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most of our trade is with the rest of the world, some of it goes to

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Europe. When somebody go shopping, do they really look were an item

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was produced? No, they buy it because it is good quality and at

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the right price. That is matters when you try to sell abroad. No

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British housewife looks and says, I am not buying this because it

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wasn't produced in the European Union.

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I am going to dispute that, I do look at the like -- label. If

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people want to buy British, you can look at a food label and with

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I don't think this is a nightmare. The most important thing is what is

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in the interest for the country right now. With the crisis in the

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eurozone, from which we are not immune, it is clear having a

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referendum about the membership of the European Union is not what is

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needed now. He has said they would like to have one of the votes on a

:15:30.:15:33.

renegotiating powers which was a promise by the Conservatives. Are

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you going to keep that promise? will have a referendum, if there

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was a treaty change which would see more power to Brussels, and that is

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a commitment to stand by completely. The manifesto promise to

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renegotiate and repatriate power. Yes, and if you look at their his

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policies, this important negotiations right now about how to

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conserve fish stocks, and that could be done with a much better

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localised approach to make sure that the fishing industry closest

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to the coastal waters that... You're not repatriating fishing

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powers and that will you promise to do. It's designed to make sure we

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have sustainable fish stocks for the future, and we have support

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amongst other countries. Are there any others? If you take the reform

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of the Common Agricultural Policy, which is coming up right now, as

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part of a negotiation, we are do in conjunction with other member

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states, the detailed implementation of that should be decided in the

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context of the member states, because farming in Cyprus and the

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UK are very different to. Why don't you let them have their vote? Why

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don't the MPs have their boat and see what they say on the issue you

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stood for at the election? Up at the election we said we would have

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a referendum... Why won't you let them? I don't think it will help

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the situation. People are worried about paying their mortgages, and

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want the economic turmoil on the world stage and within Europe, just

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be sorted out. No one is saying you should have a referendum now that

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have it next year. Had it with the independent Scottish referendum.

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The important point played in that interview, City have a good part of

:17:26.:17:36.
:17:36.:17:38.

our trade is in a Europe. It would be... Hold on a minute. 93% of our

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trade would not be affected being inside or outside. It was

:17:43.:17:53.
:17:53.:17:53.

negotiated by GAT, so they couldn't put tariffs against us. What is

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your answer to that? 40% of our trade is with other European

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countries. Which would not be affected. Yes, it would.

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wouldn't, because of they can't put tariffs against the rules. Not Just

:18:10.:18:14.

parrots, but you seek to ensure a level playing field in a single

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market. It's an advantage of the countries that operating on a

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single playing field for the WTO rules cover both barriers. Andrew,

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and talks have broken down. There is no agreement on trade

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liberalisation. Yes, there is also its to bring in emerging markets

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balls-up where is this huge demand for the referendum? I haven't had

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one business meeting, another new been a couple of days now, and I'd

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been in the team for many months now, and I haven't had one Business

:18:53.:19:03.
:19:03.:19:03.

asking me for a referendum on Europe. Right, Now it appears that

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not a day goes by without more bad news on the economy. Last night the

:19:07.:19:10.

governor of the Bank of England, some might mistake him for the

:19:10.:19:13.

harbinger of doom these days, gave us a sober assessment of the

:19:13.:19:17.

economic situation. Mervyn King said Britain must use the gravity

:19:17.:19:20.

of the global crisis to provoke a bold response. Jo bring us up to

:19:20.:19:24.

speed. Each day there is news of fresh economic woes both at home

:19:24.:19:28.

and abroad. Let's just take a quick snapshot of what we have learnt in

:19:28.:19:31.

the last 24 hours. Yesterday morning, the latest inflation

:19:31.:19:34.

figures were published with the consumer price index hitting 5.2%,

:19:34.:19:37.

and the retail price index a massive 5.6% The figures published

:19:37.:19:42.

yesterday showed that gas prices have gone up by 13% since August.

:19:42.:19:49.

And electricity has gone up by 7.5%. Then last night the Governor of the

:19:49.:19:52.

Bank of England Mervyn King warned that the time is running out to

:19:52.:19:55.

solve the world economic crisis and that the consequences threatened to

:19:55.:20:05.
:20:05.:20:07.

inflict pain on everyone. Over in Greece, a 48 hour general strike

:20:07.:20:10.

has begun as parliament prepares to vote on the latest round of

:20:10.:20:13.

spending cuts and tax increases. And ahead of the EU Summit this

:20:13.:20:15.

weekend, President Sarkozy said of the crisis facing the single

:20:15.:20:18.

currency that allowing the destruction of the euro is to risk

:20:18.:20:27.

of the destruction of Europe. British people are now going

:20:27.:20:30.

through the severest squeeze on their living standards since the

:20:30.:20:35.

1920s. What are you doing about it? We need to be clear what the

:20:35.:20:39.

Government can and can't do. There are two things which are beyond our

:20:39.:20:46.

control completely. The rising commodity prices for food because

:20:46.:20:51.

of increasing population and rising energy prices. They haven't risen

:20:51.:20:59.

since 2008. Not on energy prices. They are way off the peak. Allow

:20:59.:21:06.

fuel bills are still rising. Energy prices rose in at 2008, the retail

:21:06.:21:11.

price rose as well. They have fallen since. Our retail prices are

:21:11.:21:18.

still rising. So what will you do? There are things you can and can't

:21:18.:21:25.

do. Particularly on energy prices helping people paying their bills

:21:25.:21:30.

despite the scaremongering. We have kept the winter fuel allowance for

:21:30.:21:35.

pensioners at �200. After that two severe winters we have had and

:21:35.:21:38.

possibly another one to come, it's important to help the vulnerable

:21:38.:21:46.

families because it's important for people to stay warm. It doesn't do

:21:46.:21:50.

anything for the squeeze the middle. The most important thing we can do

:21:50.:21:54.

is help people to reduce their energy consumption. The green deal

:21:54.:22:01.

is designed to help everyone. It makes a difference. If you fit

:22:01.:22:06.

homes would double glazing you can halve your energy bill. Your

:22:06.:22:11.

response to the severest squeeze on living standards since 1925 is

:22:11.:22:16.

double glazing? I'm telling you what we can do. What is basically

:22:16.:22:21.

nothing. We need to produce more food because it's in short supply,

:22:21.:22:26.

so the number one priority is to produce more food and to produce it

:22:26.:22:30.

at less cost. That's not going to happen overnight for the are you

:22:30.:22:36.

going to pay for my double glazing? You can draw down �6,000 of capital

:22:36.:22:41.

to suit your property. I'm supposed to do this at a time when average

:22:41.:22:49.

pay is rising by less than 2%, and prices are rising by 6%? It doesn't

:22:49.:22:53.

come out of your pay packet but drawn down over your utility bills

:22:53.:22:58.

over a number of time, because people don't have the capital right

:22:58.:23:04.

now to I play on energy conservation. Basically, other than

:23:04.:23:11.

things on the margin, there is very little the Government can do to

:23:11.:23:16.

ameliorate this terrible squeeze on living standards? We can't change

:23:16.:23:21.

the trajectory of world prices but we can do things to help are

:23:21.:23:29.

vulnerable families. Overall, with food, we need to produce more food

:23:29.:23:33.

because of supply and demand. have said all that. The Governor

:23:33.:23:38.

said last night the root cause of the debt crisis was unsustainably

:23:38.:23:42.

high levels of consumption by governments, companies, and

:23:42.:23:50.

individuals. Who presided over that? I'm not sure. Your hinting at

:23:50.:23:55.

certain conclusions there. I'm not sure we have the financial problems

:23:55.:24:01.

we have now because we spent historically too much on schools,

:24:01.:24:05.

hospitals he's just saying governments, companies and

:24:05.:24:09.

individuals all borrowed too much. And it was unsustainable and the

:24:09.:24:16.

party would have to end. Who presided over this unsustainable

:24:16.:24:21.

borrowing in all three sectors? were in power for 13 years, that's

:24:21.:24:28.

a fact. In relation to private consumption, and spending and its

:24:28.:24:32.

place in our overall GDP, we need to rebalance the economy so we are

:24:32.:24:36.

not reliant so much on consumption, which makes up two-thirds of GDP.

:24:36.:24:44.

We need to build and Grover's other sectors, like manufacturing. --

:24:44.:24:49.

grow those other sectors. In so far as the public sector debt is

:24:49.:24:53.

concerned, clearly, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now were it

:24:53.:24:57.

not for the financial crisis which found itself in the banking sector.

:24:57.:25:02.

Things would be very difficult and different now had not been for that.

:25:02.:25:06.

The key way to resolve these things is to get growth and jobs back and

:25:06.:25:10.

the economy because we had 2.5 7 million unemployed people at the

:25:10.:25:13.

moment and we have to pay them benefits, and they don't pay income

:25:13.:25:20.

tax so, ultimately, it costs us about half a billion pounds, for

:25:20.:25:23.

the more people we get back into work, the quicker we will be able

:25:23.:25:28.

to resolve the issues of the public sector debt. How do you do that but

:25:28.:25:33.

we will come back to that of. We will have the Guess The Year

:25:33.:25:43.
:25:43.:25:44.

competition and then PM queues for the -- pm at questions. A new

:25:44.:25:46.

presenter has seen the ratings plummet, there have been newspaper

:25:46.:25:49.

reports of feuding talent and the critics are beginning to wonder if

:25:49.:25:56.

the show is past its best. No, we haven't lost our X Factor. How

:25:56.:25:59.

could we? But you've got to feel sorry for poor old Simon Cowell,

:25:59.:26:03.

whose show has it appears. Luckily, me and my Sinitta have got some

:26:03.:26:06.

advice. Simon, don't worry about the songs or the stylists. You can

:26:06.:26:10.

have mine. Forget winning the �27,000 mini. If you want to keep

:26:10.:26:17.

your audience, it's all about having this very special prize.

:26:17.:26:21.

get better every week. Doesn't it? We'll remind you how to enter in a

:26:21.:26:31.
:26:31.:26:37.

minute, but let's see if you can At least 18 people have died and

:26:37.:26:43.

thousands more injured in these spontaneous riots which the

:26:43.:26:53.
:26:53.:26:54.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 53 seconds

:26:54.:27:47.

Governor of California has termed a Nostalgia rules. To be in with a

:27:47.:27:50.

chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our

:27:50.:27:54.

special quiz email address. That's [email protected] And you can see

:27:54.:27:59.

the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our website.

:27:59.:28:03.

That's bbc.co.uk / dailypolitics. It's coming up to midday here. Just

:28:03.:28:12.

take a look at Big Ben. There it is framed in a beautiful blue sky.

:28:13.:28:16.

It's Wednesday. And that can mean only one thing. Yes, Prime

:28:16.:28:19.

Minister's Questions is on its way. Before we head over to the Commons

:28:19.:28:22.

we've been joined by Matthew Parris of the Times. Welcome back. Good to

:28:22.:28:27.

see you. What should Mr Miliband go on today? In a cornucopia of

:28:27.:28:31.

choice? There will be up to be something about Liam Fox, but my

:28:31.:28:36.

guess is that he will hit the economy had a, and the inflation

:28:36.:28:42.

figures. -- harder. I would have thought he doesn't want to appear

:28:42.:28:45.

to political but would want to appear on the side of ordinary

:28:45.:28:50.

people, or not thinking a lot about Dr Fox, and nothing about the way

:28:50.:28:54.

the Government benefits, pensions, would actually be going up as much

:28:54.:28:59.

as inflation and inflation is going up faster than people thought.

:28:59.:29:05.

would you advise him to go on? There is a cornucopia of issues.

:29:05.:29:14.

What would I go on? Liam Fox is the issue of the moment. For ordinary

:29:14.:29:21.

people? His life work is undone. He's lost his job. Maybe the issue

:29:21.:29:28.

of the moment is not the issue brought up with me on the doorstep.

:29:28.:29:32.

We have not mentioned at this morning for the only you. Didn't

:29:32.:29:40.

you? Matthew just mentioned it. is the bubble personified. So I

:29:40.:29:44.

think it will be the big issue for people at the moment, the economy.

:29:44.:29:52.

But we will wait and see. Mr Miller and, despite -- Ed Miliband never

:29:52.:30:00.

sounds totally in command when it comes to the economy. It's

:30:00.:30:04.

difficult to sound in command when it you are a new Leader of the

:30:04.:30:08.

Opposition. Margaret Thatcher shadow the Chancellor before she

:30:08.:30:11.

became leader of the Conservative Party and she never sounded much in

:30:11.:30:15.

command, either. It comes with experience, and he's got plenty of

:30:15.:30:20.

time. One of the things which strikes me about the political

:30:20.:30:24.

elite on the left and right at the moment is a total absence of

:30:24.:30:29.

credible policy. Alternatives to what's happening at the moment.

:30:29.:30:32.

which makes politics quite interesting in one sense but in the

:30:32.:30:37.

other sense, quite a doll. We are being forced down the same channel.

:30:37.:30:42.

-- quite dull. Caroline would disagree with me on this. There has

:30:42.:30:50.

been, since the crash in at 2008, two quite distinct positions. In

:30:50.:30:57.

some senses, grounded in the party attitudes towards the state and how

:30:57.:31:01.

much it should intervene. I think there are real differences in

:31:01.:31:08.

approach. What is the major difference? Our five-point plan for

:31:08.:31:11.

growth shows the Government doing things for demand and we don't

:31:11.:31:14.

think the state is the answer to everything but I suppose we take a

:31:14.:31:20.

more benign view than ideological, the Conservatives would do. We will

:31:20.:31:30.
:31:30.:31:31.

come back to that. Let's go to the I am sure the whole House will wish

:31:31.:31:37.

to join me in remembering rifleman DJ ride from the Gurkha Rifles. He

:31:37.:31:45.

was a talented soldier. He was proud to be a Gurkha and it is at

:31:45.:31:50.

times like these we remembered the deep debt of gratitude we owe those

:31:50.:31:54.

brave soldiers. I had meetings this morning with ministerial colleagues

:31:54.:32:00.

and others and I will have such further meetings later.

:32:00.:32:04.

Can I commend and share the views of the Prime Minister concerning

:32:04.:32:09.

our brave military personnel. Is the Prime Minister a word that this

:32:09.:32:15.

year we are commemorating the 75th anniversary of the Jarrow march?

:32:15.:32:20.

Isn't it wrong that even today, people in this country living fear

:32:20.:32:26.

of the door and unemployment? The Government have been in a year and

:32:26.:32:29.

already we are back to the 1980s. Can I ask the Prime Minister

:32:29.:32:33.

question? Will he be supporting workers or will he be sacrificing

:32:33.:32:38.

them? I believe we need to be supporting people and helping them

:32:38.:32:43.

back into work. We should commemorate the Jarrow march, and I

:32:43.:32:47.

noticed it has been commemorated this year. We have a challenge

:32:47.:32:50.

across the country as we see numbers employed in the public

:32:50.:32:54.

sector inevitably go down. And that would be happening whoever was

:32:54.:32:59.

standing here. We have to make sure there are more jobs in the private

:32:59.:33:05.

sector. In the north-east, we seem Nissan is creating 200 jobs,

:33:05.:33:10.

Hitachi have to 500 jobs, the Lear Corporation up to 300 jobs and BT

:33:11.:33:16.

are creating an extra two wounded 80 jobs in South seals. There are

:33:16.:33:22.

half a million more private sector jobs compared at the time of the

:33:22.:33:27.

election. I agree we need to do more.

:33:27.:33:36.

Can I congratulate the Prime Minister... Are on his joint

:33:36.:33:42.

declaration with Canadian Prime Minister on Ocean renewable

:33:42.:33:48.

energies. Obviously we need to make sure we have growth in our economy.

:33:48.:33:52.

May I ask as to what he thinks universities such as Plymouth, who

:33:52.:33:58.

have a very good reputation for marine research, can do to try and

:33:58.:34:05.

help? I commend him for his question, because there are a

:34:05.:34:08.

number of universities across the country, and including Edinburgh,

:34:08.:34:15.

which I visited. They are leaders in marine renewable energy and

:34:15.:34:17.

yesterday the climate change Secretary announced we will be

:34:17.:34:21.

going ahead with the renewable obligations certificates, making

:34:22.:34:27.

sure we Bruce this industry and attract jobs to this country for

:34:27.:34:32.

offshore wind and other renewable technologies. -- boost.

:34:32.:34:38.

Can I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the riflemen from

:34:38.:34:42.

2nd Battalion the Royal Gurkha Rifles in joining the army was

:34:42.:34:48.

following a proud family tradition. He showed the utmost courage and

:34:48.:34:51.

bravery and our condolences are with his family and friends. The

:34:51.:34:56.

revelations over the last week about what has been going on in the

:34:56.:34:59.

most sensitive department at the heart of the governments are

:34:59.:35:02.

worrying. The former Defence Secretary had an unofficial adviser

:35:02.:35:06.

with access to top officials in the military and foreign governments,

:35:06.:35:12.

funded by undeclared, private donations solicited by him. Yet the

:35:12.:35:16.

Prime Minister says he and Number Ten knew nothing about these goings

:35:16.:35:21.

on for 18 months. How did he allow this to happen?

:35:21.:35:26.

I agree with him, this is an important and serious issue and

:35:26.:35:31.

that is why I set up a proper inquiry, by the Cabinet Secretary.

:35:31.:35:35.

He has produced that report and the report has been published. I do

:35:35.:35:41.

think it is worth, Mr Speaker, recognising in this case, the

:35:41.:35:44.

Secretary of State for Defence recognised he made a mistake,

:35:44.:35:48.

acknowledged team broke the ministerial code and resigned. That

:35:49.:35:53.

is not something that always happened in the last 13 years!

:35:53.:35:59.

Miliband. Mr Speaker, a piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this

:36:00.:36:08.

week of all weeks, show a bit of humility! And the truth is, we

:36:08.:36:13.

still don't know the full facts about his case. About the money

:36:13.:36:18.

trail, about to be in the Government Messer Adam Werritty. It

:36:18.:36:23.

is becoming clear there were a network of individuals who funded

:36:23.:36:27.

Mr Werritty, some with close links to the Conservative Party and

:36:27.:36:31.

others close links to the Cabinet. Giving he says he knew nothing

:36:31.:36:35.

about the arrangements of the former Defence Secretary, can he

:36:36.:36:39.

get this house a categorical guarantee that over the last 18

:36:39.:36:43.

months, no other Government minister has been engaging in

:36:43.:36:48.

similar activities? I think we should have a little bit of

:36:48.:36:53.

humility from the people who gave us cabs for hire, passports of

:36:53.:37:03.
:37:03.:37:07.

favours, mortgages for maids! Dodgy de Souza. -- dodgy dossier. These

:37:07.:37:12.

are the questions he was meant to ask last week. Perhaps I have some

:37:12.:37:16.

advice for him - if you jump on a bandwagon, make sure it is still

:37:16.:37:24.

moving! Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, no answers to the questions people

:37:24.:37:29.

want answers. This is a Prime Minister and we see a pattern of

:37:29.:37:35.

activity. He does not ask the tough questions of those around him and

:37:35.:37:40.

when anything goes wrong, it is nothing to do with him. What did he

:37:40.:37:45.

say in the ministerial code? He said, it is not enough simply to

:37:45.:37:49.

make a difference, we must be different. And in the last three

:37:50.:37:54.

months we have seen his Defence Secretary resign in disgrace and

:37:54.:37:58.

his spin doctor arrested. Is that what he meant about being

:37:59.:38:03.

different? He seems to have failed to notice the minister in question

:38:03.:38:13.
:38:13.:38:15.

has resigned. You're just a bit late!

:38:15.:38:25.
:38:25.:38:25.

Would my Right Honourable Friend agree that at a time when... Order.

:38:25.:38:28.

Would my Right Honourable friend agreed that at a time when the

:38:28.:38:34.

Governor of the Bank of England has said we are facing possibly an

:38:34.:38:38.

unprecedented economic crisis, it is a good thing this country is

:38:38.:38:46.

still committed to getting debt under control, and to retaining

:38:46.:38:55.

credibility in the financial He makes an important point. People

:38:56.:39:01.

should listen to the Governor of the Bank of England when he served

:39:01.:39:06.

with a lower level of sterling we were on track. But the problems in

:39:06.:39:10.

the Euro area and a marked slowing of the economy have length and the

:39:10.:39:14.

big period that their returns to normality is likely. We should

:39:14.:39:19.

stick to the plan of dealing with debts and deficits. If we listen to

:39:19.:39:23.

the party opposite and added �23 billion to the deficit this year,

:39:23.:39:30.

it wouldn't be Greek economics, it would be freed Economics.

:39:30.:39:35.

Mr Speaker, the Speaker has acknowledged there was collusion in

:39:35.:39:40.

the murder of Pat Finucane. Does he accept in order to get to the

:39:40.:39:45.

bottom of that, we have to get to the top of that? Does he recognise

:39:45.:39:50.

many of us lack confidence that a review by even an eminent lawyer is

:39:50.:39:54.

going to be able to do that, and will he reflect further on the

:39:54.:40:01.

grave misgivings reflected by the family and the Irish Government?

:40:01.:40:05.

course I accept the scepticism. But there was scepticism at the time of

:40:05.:40:08.

the inquiry as to whether that would get to the truth. What

:40:08.:40:12.

matters is the intent of the British Government in uncovering

:40:12.:40:16.

what happened, being frank about it, acknowledging it and apologising

:40:16.:40:20.

for it. You don't need an open- ended inquiry to achieve that. To

:40:20.:40:25.

those who are sceptical, I know they will go on being sceptical,

:40:25.:40:28.

just have an open mind and I believe we can deal with this issue

:40:28.:40:33.

properly. Will a prime Minister join me in congratulating my

:40:33.:40:41.

Gorrell council -- Borough Council in building the first council

:40:41.:40:47.

housing in many years. But also recognise their anxiety the first

:40:47.:40:51.

draft of the new national planning policy framework could render them

:40:51.:40:55.

powerless to defend treasured and green spaces on the urban fringe

:40:55.:40:59.

which are being deliberately targeted by developers? Let me

:40:59.:41:03.

reassure him on the planning policy. We are not making changes to green

:41:03.:41:07.

belt and other protections. He can discuss that with the planning

:41:07.:41:13.

minister. I congratulate all local councils to build the badly-needed

:41:13.:41:17.

houses we need and deal with overcrowding. I am sure he will

:41:17.:41:20.

welcome the announcement that have been made and the Deputy Prime

:41:20.:41:24.

Minister and I have been working closely on this, to make sure use

:41:24.:41:28.

money from the right to buy to build more social housing so we end

:41:28.:41:34.

the scandal of overcrowded housing. Can I thank you and your staff and

:41:34.:41:39.

put on record my gratitude to the Home Secretary and all sides of the

:41:39.:41:42.

House for their support for their Hillsborough families during the

:41:42.:41:46.

debate on Monday. Will the Prime Minister acknowledged governments

:41:46.:41:52.

have made mistakes, that 22 years is 22 years to too long to fight

:41:52.:41:58.

for the truth. If it is proven there was an orchestrated cover-up,

:41:58.:42:03.

justice should still prevail? And those really responsible for the

:42:03.:42:08.

Hillsborough disaster should be brought to book? First of all, let

:42:08.:42:13.

me say to him, last week I promised him the time for his debate would

:42:13.:42:15.

be properly protected and the house would have a proper time to debate

:42:15.:42:21.

it, which it did. Yes we are going to open up those papers and publish

:42:21.:42:26.

the papers as promised, so people can see what was happening. I would

:42:26.:42:31.

say it is important to remember, the Taylor inquiry was a proper

:42:31.:42:35.

investigation, it led to huge changes in the way we manage and

:42:35.:42:40.

arrange football in this country. Hillsborough was a national tragedy,

:42:40.:42:45.

I am sympathetic to the families of the victims and I'm sure there are

:42:45.:42:48.

regrets from all the institutions involved at the time, including the

:42:48.:42:53.

Government. The Prime Minister has giving his backing to national

:42:53.:42:58.

heroes Day this Friday, 21st October. Will he commend hundreds

:42:58.:43:01.

of schools taking part celebrating inspirational role models and

:43:01.:43:06.

raising money for help for heroes? I am very pleased to do that, I am

:43:06.:43:10.

a huge fan. It has been a remarkable story how that charity

:43:10.:43:15.

has grown. I have seen for myself the extraordinary efforts they have

:43:15.:43:18.

made at Headley Court, where they have built this swimming-pool which

:43:19.:43:22.

is used by so many people recovering from their injuries in

:43:22.:43:26.

Afghanistan and elsewhere. I am pleased to support what he says.

:43:26.:43:32.

Miliband. Last week we heard unemployment was

:43:32.:43:36.

at its highest level since the last Conservative Government. This week

:43:36.:43:40.

we heard retail price inflation was at its highest level since the last

:43:40.:43:44.

Conservative Government. Does the Prime Minister still think his plan

:43:44.:43:51.

is working? CPI, the measure of inflation we all now recognise, the

:43:51.:43:56.

last time CPI was as high as this was in 2080 when he was in

:43:56.:44:04.

Government. -- 2008. Inflation is too high, the principal reasons for

:44:04.:44:08.

inflation being high of world food prices, fuel prices, the

:44:08.:44:13.

depreciation of sterling and yes, there was an effect on the increase

:44:13.:44:18.

in VAT, just as there was an effect when he increased VAT at the

:44:18.:44:23.

beginning of 2010. But the reason for increasing VAT is to get on top

:44:23.:44:26.

of the record at this at the last Government left.

:44:26.:44:30.

As always the Prime Minister says it is just like that in the rest of

:44:30.:44:36.

the world. We have the highest inflation than any other EU country

:44:36.:44:42.

apart from Estonia. It is decisions he made, including VAT. The

:44:42.:44:45.

evidence mounts his plan is not working and he just refuses to

:44:45.:44:50.

change course. Lastly, we heard his flagship National Insurance scheme

:44:50.:44:55.

had not worked. Now let me ask him about his flagship regional growth

:44:55.:44:59.

fund which he launched 16 months ago. Can he tell us how many

:44:59.:45:09.
:45:09.:45:09.

businesses have had cash paid out One of the reasons why Britain has

:45:09.:45:13.

such a difficult situation with inflation is we would be country

:45:13.:45:17.

with the biggest boom and bust of any European country. He cannot

:45:17.:45:22.

hide from that. The regional growth fund will distribute billions of

:45:22.:45:25.

pounds it right across the country and it's a thoroughly worthwhile

:45:25.:45:29.

scheme he should be supporting. don't think he knows the answer, Mr

:45:29.:45:36.

Speaker. Mr Speaker, they have certainly issued lots of press

:45:36.:45:41.

releases about the regional growth fund. 22, but how many businesses

:45:41.:45:48.

have been helped in the last 16 months? Two. Two businesses in the

:45:48.:45:55.

16 months. And how many have gone bankrupt in that time? 16,000. What

:45:55.:45:59.

greater example can there be on the way this Government's plan is not

:45:59.:46:03.

working. We've had 18 months of his economic experiment and what have

:46:03.:46:08.

you got to show for it? More and more people losing jobs, businesses

:46:08.:46:12.

going bust and inflation through the roof, and all we have is a

:46:12.:46:19.

prime minister who is hopelessly out of touch. Because all he wants

:46:19.:46:29.
:46:29.:46:33.

to do is talk down the economy. He won't mention the fact that there

:46:33.:46:38.

are 300,000 new businesses started. There are 500,000 people who got

:46:38.:46:42.

jobs who didn't have them at the time of the election, but the big

:46:42.:46:49.

question is, if he doesn't like our plan, where is his plan? We now

:46:49.:46:58.

know his plan to deal with our debts is to... Order. Organised

:46:58.:47:03.

barracking is not acceptable for the Prime Minister must be heard.

:47:04.:47:09.

His plan is to add �23 billion to Britain's deficit this year and

:47:09.:47:14.

almost �100 billion up by the end of the parliament, but there is not

:47:14.:47:24.
:47:24.:47:30.

one single country in Europe that Order! We are grateful to the

:47:30.:47:32.

shadow chancellor followed advice but I would like him up to applied

:47:32.:47:39.

to the House as a whole. The House must come down up. The Prime

:47:39.:47:43.

Minister. The problem is, it was his advice which got us into this

:47:43.:47:49.

mess in the first place. When is he going to learn there is not a

:47:49.:47:53.

single country in a Europe that things you deal with your debts by

:47:53.:47:57.

adding to your debts? That's why nobody listens to him here or in

:47:58.:48:03.

Europe. Yesterday, a report was published in to the serious

:48:04.:48:08.

failings by Nottinghamshire police to protect a young woman who went

:48:08.:48:12.

on to be murdered by her violent partner. Would the Prime Minister

:48:12.:48:16.

agree with me, it is imperative all police forces have the practices,

:48:16.:48:23.

policies and the training to protect women from violent men?

:48:23.:48:28.

absolutely agree. The point she makes is important because some

:48:28.:48:31.

police forces have made huge steps forwards in domestic violence but

:48:31.:48:36.

not all have, and we need to spread that best practice and recognise it

:48:36.:48:43.

across the country. The Association of college principals has just

:48:43.:48:49.

announced the largest fall in college enrolments since 1999 and

:48:49.:48:54.

cite the abolition of EMA as a factor. It's a tragedy of the

:48:54.:48:57.

Government's own making and lies directly at the door of the

:48:58.:49:00.

Secretary of State for Education. What does the Prime Minister going

:49:00.:49:05.

to do to put this right? figures actually show that some end

:49:05.:49:11.

Romans had gone up and if you look at our replacement for EMA, it's a

:49:11.:49:14.

well funded scheme which would be much better targeted on those

:49:14.:49:23.

people in need of. People will get more under EMA. The families in the

:49:23.:49:29.

country are facing very high fuel bills and there's a vested interest

:49:29.:49:31.

by the Big Six feel companies not to allow competition into the

:49:31.:49:37.

market. What of the primer so doing to bring more competition to get

:49:37.:49:43.

prices down? One thing we are doing is insisting the Big Six up to make

:49:43.:49:47.

more of their energy available into a pooling arrangement so new

:49:47.:49:52.

businesses can come into this industry. The last government

:49:52.:49:55.

abolished the pooling arrangements and created a situation with the

:49:55.:50:00.

Big Six, and we don't have to ask who the energy secretary was in

:50:00.:50:06.

that government. We are looking at him. Given the importance of carbon

:50:06.:50:11.

capture and storage, as a way of helping reduce our carbon emissions

:50:11.:50:16.

and also as an exporter will technology to rebalance the economy,

:50:16.:50:20.

will the Prime Minister put his words into action and in short the

:50:20.:50:25.

organic demonstration project goes ahead? What I can say is the

:50:25.:50:29.

funding we set aside for carbon capture and storage is still there.

:50:29.:50:34.

It will be made available. The scheme has not working in the way

:50:34.:50:38.

they intended but the money from the Government, the support, is

:50:38.:50:45.

there. Given the huge savings the nation made by the Cabinet Office

:50:45.:50:50.

is across government without legislation, and a huge financial

:50:50.:50:54.

risks provoked by constant structure reorganisation of the NHS,

:50:54.:50:57.

wouldn't it be better at politicians learn to manage more

:50:57.:51:02.

and medal less, even if the governments find the latter more

:51:02.:51:08.

interesting? He makes an important point. Let me pay tribute to a

:51:09.:51:13.

member for Horsham who does this very patient work at the heart of

:51:13.:51:17.

government and doesn't always get recognised for it but we have

:51:17.:51:23.

reduced management consultants by 70%, saving �870 million. We have

:51:23.:51:29.

spent less on lay bat, temporary labour, spent less on marketing and

:51:29.:51:34.

advertising. These are serious changes to cost things and provide

:51:34.:51:38.

good value for money. None of these things were done under the last

:51:38.:51:42.

government to put up the Prime Minister claimed before the

:51:42.:51:47.

election anyone carrying a knife should go to prison. Has he read a

:51:47.:51:51.

Brooke Kinsella's article in today's Sun newspaper revealing 40%

:51:51.:51:56.

of knife crime is carried out by under 18? Why won't he put them in

:51:56.:52:02.

jail? A we are doing something the last government failed to do,

:52:02.:52:05.

create a mandatory sentence for adults caught with knives to make

:52:05.:52:15.
:52:15.:52:17.

sure that happens. The British people are simply crying out for a

:52:17.:52:23.

referendum on the future of the Europe. Will he please make history

:52:23.:52:27.

and follow the example of great prime ministers like Winston

:52:27.:52:30.

Churchill and Margaret Thatcher and given the British people a chance

:52:30.:52:37.

to vote on our future with the EU? I completely understand and share

:52:37.:52:41.

the frustration that many have about the way the European Union

:52:41.:52:46.

goes about its business, the bureaucracy, but I have to say, the

:52:46.:52:51.

key focus here is to get on top of the EU budget, keeping Britain out

:52:51.:52:55.

of the bail-out scheme, and make sure the single market is working.

:52:55.:53:02.

Of course, we are committed to the return of powers from Brussels to

:53:02.:53:06.

Westminster. We are committed as a government that if power passes

:53:06.:53:14.

from Brussels there would have to be a referendum. That promise is

:53:14.:53:18.

good for this Parliament and beyond but I don't support holding a

:53:18.:53:26.

referendum come what may. I will not be supporting a motion. We are

:53:26.:53:29.

aware of the courage of our armed forces as they serve and

:53:29.:53:36.

Afghanistan. Last November, Major Ian McCormick from Coleraine in my

:53:36.:53:41.

constituency, died in Helmand province, one of many but he paid

:53:41.:53:44.

the highest price to defend freedom. His commanding officer said today

:53:44.:53:49.

there is a gap in their ranks which no ordinary man can fill. He was

:53:49.:53:53.

the best of his country and we mourn his loss. What the Prime

:53:53.:53:58.

Minister ensure he will review the way the Ministry of Defence

:53:58.:54:03.

prepares its honours list so families will see the entire nation

:54:03.:54:07.

recognises the sacrifice and selflessness of these brave men and

:54:07.:54:13.

women? I will certainly look very carefully at what he says and

:54:13.:54:18.

perhaps arrange a meeting with him and the Minister for other veterans

:54:18.:54:23.

and the honourable member for Blaby. I think it would be a good thing to

:54:23.:54:26.

do. I had the highest possible regard for the professionalism,

:54:26.:54:32.

courage, dedication of our forces are also we paid a high price in

:54:32.:54:36.

Afghanistan and Iraq for all we had to do there, and the whole country,

:54:36.:54:43.

actually, recognises that and feels that very strongly and are looking

:54:43.:54:47.

for new ways to recognise what the armed forces do. That's why there's

:54:47.:54:53.

such strong support for help for heroes and homecoming parades for

:54:53.:54:56.

honours lists, the military government and those sorts of

:54:56.:55:03.

things. I think we should recognise this service and sacrifice.

:55:03.:55:12.

Inaccurate reporting and statements about a European director of that

:55:12.:55:15.

applies to insulin-dependent diabetics seize up to one million

:55:15.:55:20.

such people fearing for their driving licence, but is it not the

:55:20.:55:24.

case, it's for the Department of Transport and how it interprets

:55:24.:55:28.

this directives which will determine whether or not some body

:55:28.:55:33.

loses their licence? When the Prime Minister make the position clear?

:55:33.:55:40.

will try to do that. I understand his concern and it is shared by

:55:40.:55:43.

many insulintreated diabetics across the country who want to go

:55:43.:55:50.

on driving. I can reassure him that, relatively few people will lose

:55:50.:55:55.

their licence as a result of this director's. The DVLA is going back

:55:55.:55:59.

to the European Commission to check its understanding of the

:55:59.:56:04.

interpretation of the minimum standards of this director's. On

:56:04.:56:13.

too many occasion, gold-plated directives should be stopped it.

:56:13.:56:22.

The British airports Authority's is selling Edinburgh Airport. Does he

:56:22.:56:24.

agree it's important others many international routes and services

:56:24.:56:30.

as possible. Why does the honours and the views of the four major

:56:30.:56:33.

transport in Scotland who wish to see the devolution of air passenger

:56:33.:56:39.

duty? We will listen carefully to these arguments balls-up Investment

:56:39.:56:45.

should go and the infrastructure of airports. I know Edinburgh airport

:56:45.:56:50.

has a superb facilities and they are being improved. We will go on

:56:50.:57:00.
:57:00.:57:02.

listening to those arguments are. Does he agree, private schools a

:57:02.:57:05.

lot well before then she not only support underperforming schools but

:57:05.:57:14.

also encourage them to federate? This should be cross-party

:57:14.:57:18.

initiative and I pay tribute to Lord Adonis who live think is made

:57:18.:57:24.

some extremely important speeches on this issue. There's an

:57:24.:57:29.

opportunity for independent school to sponsor academies in the state

:57:29.:57:35.

sector. I think we can to the breaking down of the barriers

:57:35.:57:38.

between independent and state education. I hope this will have

:57:38.:57:45.

all-party support. A change in the national targets regime have led to

:57:45.:57:50.

the murders his services in Greater Manchester being in the disarray. -

:57:50.:57:56.

- emergency services. The response time of the fire service has

:57:56.:57:59.

doubled in parts of Greater Manchester and the police

:57:59.:58:03.

switchboard is in meltdown. What reassurances can the Prime Minister

:58:04.:58:08.

give to the House they won't be a tragic death because of this

:58:08.:58:12.

failure in the service? I will look carefully at what the honourable

:58:13.:58:21.

gentleman says balls of we are carrying out the �20 billion of

:58:21.:58:26.

savings carried out by the Health Secretary but the depth of between

:58:26.:58:31.

our policies, we are putting those savings back into the NHS whereas

:58:31.:58:35.

the official Labour position is increasing spending in real terms

:58:35.:58:42.

on the NHS is irresponsible balls- up we think it's irresponsible not

:58:42.:58:50.

to do that. David Brown's spending in my constituency, being in

:58:50.:58:57.

receipt of a regional growth and investment, that will help to

:58:57.:59:02.

create 80 new jobs, does the Prime Minister agree with me that despite

:59:02.:59:07.

the my brain and doom-mongering opposite, there are success stories

:59:07.:59:13.

out there, and will he opened the new innovation and enterprise

:59:13.:59:20.

centre at Huddersfield University in the spring? What a delightful

:59:20.:59:27.

invitation. Can I thank the honourable gentleman. Or does. --

:59:27.:59:36.

order. What he has managed to show his the first lot of questions were

:59:36.:59:41.

irrelevant and the second set of questions were wrong. Mr Speaker,

:59:41.:59:47.

the answer the prime minister just gave just isn't good enough. The

:59:47.:59:53.

fact is, despite all his promises, but fewer people carrying knives

:59:53.:59:57.

are going to prison so will we apologise to broken seller and

:59:57.:00:03.

other bereaved families back Brooke Kinsella, for breaking the promises

:00:03.:00:10.

he made that he would take a tougher approach. It's a brave

:00:10.:00:14.

thing, her campaign, when you have lost a campaign in your own family

:00:14.:00:20.

to campaign for change in the law and also the way the police behave,

:00:20.:00:25.

young people behave. I think she is a thoroughly good individual with a

:00:25.:00:30.

very great campaigner. What we are doing under this government is have

:00:30.:00:34.

a mandatory sentence for knife crime and that will be introduced

:00:34.:00:43.

in the forthcoming Bill. My Right Honourable friend, will hear

:00:43.:00:48.

support the Royal College of speech therapist giving voice campaign

:00:48.:00:50.

which is emphasising the central importance of speech, language and

:00:50.:00:56.

communication in tackling a wide range of social issues. I will

:00:56.:01:00.

certainly join my honourable friend doing that. This is an issue way

:01:00.:01:05.

take a close personal interest as well. For anyone who has brought up

:01:05.:01:09.

disabled children, they know the importance of speech therapists and

:01:09.:01:13.

know this not another bum to provide a help and services we need

:01:13.:01:18.

and no getting their services can be extremely tough, so I certainly

:01:18.:01:26.

agree with what he says. The Prime Minister, Leno at officials from

:01:26.:01:32.

other governments were given the impression that the former Defence

:01:32.:01:38.

Secretary's an official adviser represented at the UK government --

:01:38.:01:45.

an official. How many people were misled and rarely provide a list?

:01:45.:01:51.

He should read the report by the Cabinet Secretary and he will find

:01:51.:01:57.

in there all the details the needs about what's Adam Werritty was

:01:57.:02:07.
:02:07.:02:19.

doing. It comes El from a party to Even the former leader, in the last

:02:19.:02:26.

two months, has got �120,000 for speeches to Credit Suisse, Visa and

:02:26.:02:31.

he told us he was going to put money into the banks. We did not

:02:31.:02:41.
:02:41.:02:48.

know he was going to get it out so Does the Prime Minister accept that

:02:48.:02:58.
:02:58.:03:07.

moves towards will undermine the He makes an extremely important

:03:07.:03:13.

point, which while we believe the logic of a single currency drives

:03:13.:03:17.

fiscal integration, it poses particular threats and risks to

:03:17.:03:22.

those of us who want the single market to work properly. It is

:03:22.:03:27.

important to argue for safeguards, to make sure the single market

:03:27.:03:33.

remains properly protected. Of course, in the longer term it maybe

:03:33.:03:38.

there will be further moves towards further treaties and the rest of it.

:03:38.:03:43.

They may be opportunities to bring further powers back to Britain and

:03:43.:03:48.

then maybe powers Best opportunities for a recommend --

:03:48.:03:52.

referendum. We have so much to do to get Europe to sort its problems

:03:52.:04:00.

out. Michael Meacher. The statutory register of lobbyists, will the

:04:00.:04:05.

Prime Minister also ensure so- called think-tanks, whose

:04:05.:04:09.

propaganda is clearly aimed to manipulate both ministers and the

:04:10.:04:13.

public for their own ends, should be required to reveal who

:04:13.:04:17.

ultimately funds them, so we all know whose interests they really

:04:17.:04:22.

represent? We are committed to having a statutory register and it

:04:22.:04:27.

does need to be put in place. In needs to include think tanks and

:04:27.:04:33.

other organisations. It also needs to include the lobby that owns the

:04:33.:04:38.

party opposite, lock, stock and trade-union barrel - the trade

:04:38.:04:48.
:04:48.:05:01.

There was a switch to the economy, and a lot of argy-bargy. Whether

:05:01.:05:06.

there was any wisdom, is a matter for you to judge.

:05:06.:05:10.

It is split into two on Liam Fox and the economies.

:05:10.:05:16.

Lorna Taylor says! David Cameron is a disgrace, he did not answer the

:05:16.:05:23.

questions, I am so angry". From Phillip Taylor in Cheshire"

:05:23.:05:30.

very angry, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

:05:30.:05:35.

John says people are concerned about Liam Fox more than the

:05:35.:05:41.

economy and unemployment. David Holmes in Newcastle" I am

:05:41.:05:46.

impressed by David Miliband for the first time ever, had David Cameron

:05:46.:05:52.

on the back foot on the economy". This from Simon Green in

:05:52.:05:57.

Southampton"somebody shut Ed Miliband up, his party was in power

:05:57.:06:04.

for 13 years and their policies have put this company on its knees".

:06:04.:06:12.

This one from someone in author, David Cameron is in Government and

:06:13.:06:16.

not in opposition. The Prime Minister accuses the

:06:17.:06:21.

opposition of talking down the economy, has he forgotten all he

:06:21.:06:24.

has done for the last six years is precisely that.

:06:24.:06:29.

I am glad John from Edinburgh is watching, because it means Scotland

:06:29.:06:33.

is watching. He could be watching for London

:06:33.:06:39.

feed of the Sky television system. Is there any mileage, Matthew

:06:39.:06:44.

Parris in Liam Fox? I wouldn't have thought so from the party political

:06:44.:06:50.

point of view. Everybody knows Mr Murphy was rather slow in getting

:06:50.:06:55.

on to that particular bandwagon. I think the Prime Minister's joke

:06:55.:06:59.

that it was too late to join the bus because it had stopped had hit

:06:59.:07:05.

home. I think the story remains interesting, and the question Ed

:07:05.:07:08.

Miliband asked, why didn't the Prime Minister know about this, it

:07:08.:07:12.

is an important question but it is not important for the party-

:07:12.:07:17.

political dogfight. So no party political advantage? He don't only

:07:17.:07:23.

as questions for party political advantage, believe it or not!

:07:23.:07:27.

Prime Minister's Questions, you do. You don't only, you keep butting

:07:27.:07:33.

into me today Andrews. You also have a function to scrutinise what

:07:33.:07:36.

Government is doing. Ed Miliband asked, what guarantees can the

:07:36.:07:42.

Prime Minister give, the kind of practices that shadow advisory

:07:42.:07:45.

operation that Liam Fox had in place, what guarantees can he give

:07:45.:07:51.

no other minister has that kind of operation in place and what is he

:07:51.:07:56.

doing to provide the public with confidence. What the public don't

:07:56.:07:59.

like in my view and that is what is reflected in commence in my

:07:59.:08:04.

constituency, they don't like power and influence they cannot see.

:08:04.:08:13.

Transparency is key. Questions are remaining un answered. I am sorry

:08:13.:08:18.

to interrupt you again, but do you have your phone on? Do you have a

:08:19.:08:25.

phone on you? Is it on? I don't think so. It is interfering with

:08:25.:08:31.

sound. I had to interrupt you there. If you have it on, can you switch

:08:31.:08:39.

it off because Ahsan people will be very grateful. How can you

:08:39.:08:43.

guarantee another minister is not running his own shadow operation?

:08:43.:08:48.

The rules have changed regarding ministerial conduct. We have to be

:08:48.:08:51.

transparent about the meetings we have with people in the department,

:08:51.:08:57.

any hospitality we receive, any gifts we receive and put it in the

:08:57.:09:00.

public domain. None of that would have stopped George

:09:00.:09:10.
:09:10.:09:12.

Papaconstantinou? Anyone would have seen who you were meeting on.

:09:12.:09:19.

Nothing was done about it. What the Prime Minister launched, what more

:09:19.:09:25.

safeguards can be put in place? So we make sure ministers abide by the

:09:25.:09:29.

ministerial code. By the letter and the spirit of it. At the end of the

:09:29.:09:38.

day, what a great wrong was done? I understand the stupidity. I

:09:38.:09:43.

understand the bizarre arrangement to have someone almost helping you

:09:43.:09:49.

to have your own shadow policy, but what wrong was done? We don't know,

:09:49.:09:54.

because we don't have the answers to the questions. There are a set

:09:54.:09:58.

of facts for potential wrongdoing and the public need to be given

:09:58.:10:01.

confidence there hasn't been wrong doing. And if there has, action

:10:01.:10:06.

will be taken. As things stand at the moment, you cannot tell me what

:10:06.:10:11.

great wrong was done? On a basic level in terms of the facts we do

:10:11.:10:14.

know, if you asked most people up and down the country, do you think

:10:14.:10:19.

it is acceptable, is it right for someone to take one of their mates

:10:19.:10:28.

along to a meeting? That is down as stupid. What is wrong? That is very

:10:28.:10:32.

serious. There aren't many people around the Cabinet table who have

:10:32.:10:38.

special brands protection. That is because not everybody is dealing

:10:38.:10:44.

with serious matters for the Ministry of Defence. That is why it

:10:44.:10:53.

is wrong to take you made a long to meetings. Also, Adam Werritty's

:10:53.:10:57.

financial backers, they have shelled out a lot of money for no

:10:57.:11:03.

discernible influence. And that is their problem. His senior Cabinet

:11:03.:11:06.

Minister was trying to build up a power base and was probably failing,

:11:06.:11:11.

but he shouldn't have been allowed to try in that way. Let's go back

:11:11.:11:16.

to the economy, which I suggest effects your constituents more than

:11:16.:11:21.

the fate of Dr Fox. You have a situation where unemployment is at

:11:21.:11:27.

a modern high and inflation is at a modern hype. We used to call that

:11:27.:11:33.

stagflation, the economy is in growing and inflation is high. Did

:11:33.:11:38.

you ever thing under this coalition you would return to stagflation?

:11:38.:11:42.

need to address absolutely, the question on how to get the economy

:11:42.:11:49.

growing again. It on blocks of the situation, the economic situation

:11:49.:11:53.

we are in. The decisions we have taken to tackle the debt we have

:11:53.:11:57.

inherited has restored Britain's credit rating. Had we not done that,

:11:57.:12:05.

interest rates would be higher. You scoff, but it is true. It is true

:12:05.:12:11.

Mervyn King has endorsed this, the UK's plan to reduce debt is the

:12:11.:12:21.
:12:21.:12:22.

right plan. Like a man on a salary of 20,000, lived on a salary of

:12:22.:12:27.

30,000 for 10 years. Given countries who were not regarded as

:12:27.:12:32.

having credible reduction plans... Have high interest rates. Can I ask

:12:32.:12:40.

the question? Greece, Italy, France, Spain, now paying more for their

:12:40.:12:44.

Government bonds and we pay far ours? The payment term on our debts

:12:44.:12:52.

is longer. It is not for France? You have talked about Greece, Italy

:12:52.:12:57.

and Spain. The term on our debt is longer than it is for those

:12:57.:13:00.

countries collectively. Interest rates were falling when we left

:13:00.:13:05.

Government. One of the biggest drivers we have low interest rates

:13:05.:13:09.

is we're not in the eurozone and thank God Gordon Brown does not

:13:09.:13:13.

take us into that. Of course we have got to reduce the deficit, but

:13:13.:13:17.

you cannot do that without growth. That is the problem, we don't have

:13:17.:13:23.

growth. We saw record borrowing in August, the highest level of

:13:23.:13:28.

borrowing for a Government. Over the course of this Parliament, we

:13:29.:13:36.

will see it �46 billion higher. your standards, that is the good

:13:36.:13:40.

thing. You want borrowing to be higher? They say they have a plan

:13:40.:13:46.

and it is working. But it isn't working. We have a plan, Matthew

:13:47.:13:52.

Parris coins this important phrase, it is payback time for the UK. We

:13:52.:13:57.

have got to pay back and grow the economy. Perfectly possible to do

:13:57.:14:02.

both things. You are not doing it. We are doing it. Everybody agrees

:14:02.:14:07.

growth is needed, the Labour Party keep shouting Winnie growth, growth,

:14:07.:14:12.

why isn't the Government doing anything about growth. Ensure

:14:12.:14:15.

privately George Osborne and David Cameron are worried about gross.

:14:15.:14:24.

Nobody knows how to get it. Money has been Ponton to the economy, --

:14:24.:14:29.

pumped into the economy. I don't agree with this idea nobody knows

:14:29.:14:37.

what to do about it. We are quite a consumption led economy. The drop

:14:37.:14:40.

in confidence which fell off a cliff after the Comprehensive

:14:40.:14:44.

Spending Review was announced, has had an impact on the man, so people

:14:44.:14:49.

have not been spending. If you look at the measures in a five-point

:14:49.:14:56.

plan... If you look at what happened, one of the points of it

:14:56.:15:02.

was to reduce VAT, they raise you imposed on families this year. When

:15:02.:15:09.

we did that at the end of financial -- to 1008. The last time we had a

:15:09.:15:17.

financial crisis we did that, we put �11 billion, and people went to

:15:17.:15:20.

spend �8 billion into the economy and it led to an increase. In terms

:15:20.:15:26.

of the extra borrowing at that time, it is a favourite of yours to ask

:15:27.:15:34.

for year and get a specific figure, but I do know... I am not worried

:15:34.:15:40.

about 2008, I am asking you now, this Government will borrow around

:15:40.:15:46.

125 billion, more than planned, which is 120 tears. It is about 10%

:15:46.:15:56.
:15:56.:15:58.

of the GDP. How much would you borrow? If you look at the Alastair

:15:58.:16:02.

Darling plan, look at the gap between the parties going forward.

:16:02.:16:09.

There is a gap of 8 billion. Alastair Darling plan did not

:16:09.:16:14.

include a cut in VAT? It was a different situation in a different

:16:14.:16:19.

scenario. If you are Max out on your credit card, you don't borrow

:16:19.:16:28.

more money. We are forgetting there are emerging markets, China, Brazil.

:16:28.:16:33.

China's growth is falling as well. Germany exports more to China than

:16:33.:16:37.

the whole of Europe put together. If there isn't an opportunity for

:16:37.:16:40.

British-made products to export to those markets - it we cannot see

:16:40.:16:46.

that, we are staring an opportunity in the face, an export-led recovery

:16:46.:16:50.

is what the Government... Let's finish on the departments of

:16:50.:16:54.

business which is run by the coalition Government. Citing

:16:54.:17:02.

bureaucratic snags is conceding the 1.4 billion Growth Fund has

:17:02.:17:12.
:17:12.:17:13.

dispersed 1.5 �8 million. Why his The answer is you have got to give

:17:13.:17:17.

value for money. If they don't provide that, we aren't any

:17:17.:17:27.
:17:27.:17:28.

position... Caroline, the money has not gone through. Now did you know

:17:28.:17:31.

that if you're a taxpayer, you pay �107 every year to farmers. The

:17:31.:17:36.

money forms part of the Common Agricultural policy, or CAP. And it

:17:36.:17:38.

accounts for 40% of EU spending. Many governments have tried to

:17:38.:17:43.

reform it. None have ever really succeeded. But the EU have decided

:17:43.:17:46.

to have another go. We asked one farmer to explain why he thinks the

:17:46.:17:56.
:17:56.:18:02.

CAP project -- protect us from volatility in the market and at the

:18:02.:18:07.

same time protects the consumer from volatility in food prices and

:18:07.:18:12.

enables farmers to farm on the hills and other disadvantaged areas

:18:12.:18:15.

where they provide a valuable landscape and other assets which

:18:15.:18:18.

are incredibly important to the British public and also to tourism

:18:18.:18:28.
:18:28.:18:30.

We quite like the proposals from the CAP reform, they encourage

:18:30.:18:36.

young Popple -- people do come into the industry and more research and

:18:37.:18:42.

development. We worry about the complicated bureaucratic nature of

:18:42.:18:46.

the proposals and we also worry about the fact that they might well

:18:46.:18:49.

mean we are less competitive up rather than more competitive as a

:18:49.:18:53.

result of the reforms. We need to be more market orientated so that

:18:53.:18:58.

we become less reliant on payments from Europe for the it's incredibly

:18:58.:19:02.

important to talk about the challenges ahead of us. Sir John

:19:02.:19:06.

Beddington, the chief scientist of the Government, says we have to

:19:06.:19:11.

produce more food in the next 50 years than we are produced in the

:19:11.:19:16.

last 2000 due to the increased population in the world. One

:19:16.:19:22.

proposal is to set aside more land and that, to me, seems totally

:19:22.:19:27.

wrong given the challenges we face and the difficulty in achieving the

:19:27.:19:36.

increase in food production as it is with a land we have. As farmers,

:19:36.:19:40.

we would prefer it to derive our livelihoods in the market place but

:19:40.:19:45.

as things stand today, at least half farmers would be out of

:19:45.:19:48.

business were it not for the CAP payment. It's essential bigger

:19:48.:19:52.

markets to work properly and that's the real challenge for government.

:19:52.:19:58.

Gwyn Jones joins us now. Listening to that film, we have been talking

:19:58.:20:03.

about food prices, people struggling to make ends meet and

:20:03.:20:08.

they will say why can't farmers accept cuts, too? We absolutely

:20:08.:20:11.

agree people are going to a very tough time at the moment and it's

:20:11.:20:17.

very difficult. We also accept the Budget in Europe will be cut.

:20:17.:20:20.

However, if we continue with food production within the European

:20:20.:20:26.

Union, we are governed by the Common Agricultural Policy and

:20:26.:20:31.

important thing for us is to make sure that its tears farmers away

:20:31.:20:36.

from payments towards markets, and also make sure farmers in the UK

:20:36.:20:43.

are not disadvantaged against competitors in the EU. Can we

:20:43.:20:46.

afford to produce food on that sort of scale if we need that much

:20:46.:20:53.

subsidy? Economically, it doesn't make sense. Do you accept that

:20:53.:20:58.

argument? To an extent. The biggest problem we have is markets in many

:20:58.:21:03.

areas just don't work for the the dairy industry in this country, we

:21:03.:21:09.

have been four pence per litre below the European and world prices,

:21:09.:21:15.

and also 27th out of 27 countries in Europe, so it's not just in milk,

:21:15.:21:20.

but markets just don't work properly. You say farmers don't

:21:20.:21:25.

want to be dependent on subsidies. Will that ever happen? How far away

:21:25.:21:31.

are we from get into that position? With the last two reformers have

:21:31.:21:34.

been slowly going in that direction but the real concern about this

:21:34.:21:37.

particular proposal it takes us backwards actually add isn't going

:21:37.:21:42.

to help to get us into a more competitive position. So we can

:21:42.:21:47.

move away from payments from Europe. How old do you feel about wealthy

:21:47.:21:53.

landowners getting the same sort of money as less well-off people

:21:53.:21:56.

question is the right Prince Charles receives �1.3 million in

:21:56.:22:01.

subsidies, for example? Generally, we are disadvantage in this country

:22:01.:22:05.

if there was capping on payments, simply because our farms are

:22:05.:22:10.

generally bigger than the ones in Europe. We have some very large

:22:10.:22:13.

bombs in the horticultural sector and they are suffering incredibly

:22:13.:22:18.

at the moment. They have millions of turnover and yet they are not

:22:18.:22:21.

making profits and not covering their capital investments due to

:22:21.:22:27.

the markets paying them less than the cost of production. We need to

:22:27.:22:34.

produce more food but why are you taking more land out of production?

:22:34.:22:44.
:22:44.:22:45.

We are not. Well, more Greening. It's not my proposal. We have

:22:45.:22:48.

proposed a reform which is a backward-looking and what we need

:22:48.:22:54.

to do is produce more food sustainably. First there goes the

:22:54.:22:56.

Asian is tomorrow for that we have said these proposals are

:22:56.:23:00.

disappointing but we are going to work really hard to get a better

:23:00.:23:08.

deal for UK farmers, taxpayers and consumers. What can you offer?

:23:08.:23:15.

Times Arpad and why we are subsidising the pig prices rise? --

:23:15.:23:24.

times are hard. -- big price rises. What is the dealer you're going to

:23:24.:23:31.

be fighting for exactly? What is the deal? A greener CAP, because it

:23:31.:23:35.

gives other public goods in return for the money also you not only

:23:35.:23:40.

good food of good quality, say be produced, a reasonable price, but

:23:40.:23:44.

the farmer takes measures to protect the environment for the we

:23:44.:23:50.

want to get it recognised. pleased the Secretary of State

:23:50.:23:55.

agrees more land should be taken out of it production, that's good.

:23:55.:24:01.

Given the negative stance the Government has towards the CAP, we

:24:01.:24:06.

worry how effective the negotiations are going to be, and

:24:06.:24:11.

how will we get a more competitive position for us as British farmers?

:24:11.:24:19.

We have to fish there. -- finish there. Thank you for coming in.

:24:20.:24:26.

Caroline, do you remember this? looks like you run to the hills?

:24:27.:24:32.

Not at all, we have to reform the Forestry Commission, but that the

:24:32.:24:35.

regulator and a major seller of timber into the market and in this

:24:35.:24:40.

day and age, you can't be the regulator and a major player, so we

:24:40.:24:45.

have to reform those kinds of conflicts of interest. So the

:24:45.:24:52.

Lady's Not For turning yet? No. I am ending the public consultation

:24:52.:24:56.

on this and I take full responsibility for that for the

:24:56.:24:59.

it's quite clear from the early responses to the consultation that

:24:59.:25:03.

the public and many honourable members are not happy with the

:25:03.:25:10.

proposals we set out. I am sorry. We got it wrong. But we have

:25:10.:25:20.
:25:20.:25:25.

listened to people's concerns. the lady was for turning after all.

:25:25.:25:27.

U-turning over government proposals to sell off the forests. It's

:25:27.:25:30.

amazing what a campaign led by a national newspaper, some rural

:25:30.:25:33.

campaign groups and the Ramblers can do. And we are joined by the

:25:33.:25:36.

Whitehall Editor of that national newspaper, the Daily Telegraph,

:25:36.:25:38.

whose current campaign is aiming to defeat the Government's planning

:25:38.:25:41.

policy. Before I come to you, are you going to do any you turns on

:25:41.:25:45.

the planning laws? The point I wanted to make, the convicted

:25:45.:25:51.

interest about being a regulator and adviser... That's history. Are

:25:51.:25:56.

you going to U-turn on the planning laws? No, because they don't plan

:25:56.:25:59.

for sustainable development. Everyone watching this programme

:25:59.:26:05.

can think of where housing estates have been bolted on two villages

:26:05.:26:11.

without the infrastructure in place. Surely you don't want to keep laws

:26:11.:26:18.

which keep sustainable development. So your campaign will fail?

:26:18.:26:21.

think it's a short-term problem for the Government, getting the economy

:26:21.:26:27.

to grow but long term it will be a problem for rural areas. People are

:26:27.:26:33.

concerned about building on green areas. Why are there four times as

:26:33.:26:37.

many Treasury officials were among the plans as your officials? It

:26:37.:26:42.

blows apart the whole argument it's an unbiased document for the first

:26:42.:26:46.

of all, to be perfectly clear, Protection Fault green belts,

:26:46.:26:49.

outstanding national beauty. National parks, none of this

:26:50.:26:59.
:27:00.:27:01.

changes. Rural areas is the concern. It's not DEFRA planning. Do you

:27:01.:27:04.

really want the existing laws that produce unsustainable development

:27:04.:27:11.

to continue under formed? You said you don't. You have waved the white

:27:11.:27:20.

flag of the whole issue. I haven't up. This is fiction. You are

:27:20.:27:25.

rewriting planning rules which have been in place for 50 years.

:27:25.:27:34.

don't take policy documents to your sunbed. Communities department, in

:27:34.:27:41.

charge by Eric Pickles, we work with local committees because we

:27:41.:27:45.

believe sustainable develop at the heart of the public system will

:27:45.:27:51.

produce a better result. Sustainable development is a brick

:27:51.:27:54.

wrapped in something else. More building on the countryside. You

:27:54.:28:04.
:28:04.:28:07.

have got to bring back brownfield In 1987 per... Let me finish. In

:28:07.:28:12.

1987, it is economically socially and environmentally, the three

:28:12.:28:19.

pillars Of sustainable development. It's a lawyers' charter, simple as

:28:19.:28:26.

that of. Will you put it to a vote? It's a consultation. It was like

:28:26.:28:34.

being at Wimbledon there and I felt like the referee. That's it. We

:28:34.:28:44.
:28:44.:28:44.

have to leave it there. Thanks to our guests. Will be the result of

:28:44.:28:50.