01/11/2011 Daily Politics


01/11/2011

Jo Coburn with the political stories of the day, including the anti-capitalist campers outside St Paul's Cathedral and the Greek referendum on the latest bail-out deal.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 01/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:23.:00:26.

The City of London is telling the anti-capitalist campers they've got

:00:26.:00:31.

48 hours to leave, or face eviction. Could this lead to running battles

:00:31.:00:36.

on the steps of St Paul's? The UK economy grew by 0.5% between

:00:36.:00:39.

July and September, a surprise for many, so is it proof the

:00:39.:00:46.

Government's plan is working? Meanwhile, the Greek Prime Minister

:00:46.:00:49.

has stunned the rest of Europe by announcing a referendum on the

:00:49.:00:53.

latest bail-out deal. So, does the whole future of the eurozone now

:00:53.:00:59.

hang on the result? And, the Prime Minister has always

:00:59.:01:02.

vowed to protect Britain's aid budget, but a lot of his own

:01:02.:01:07.

backbenchers are sceptical. So is it time to look at where the money

:01:07.:01:15.

is going? All that in the next half hour. Jo

:01:15.:01:18.

and Andrew are off today, so joining me for the whole programme

:01:18.:01:22.

is Dame Barbara Stocking, the chief executive of Oxfam. Welcome to the

:01:22.:01:27.

Daily Politics. Hello. I'd like to get your thoughts on what's

:01:27.:01:30.

happening down at St Paul's today, where the protesters look as if

:01:30.:01:33.

they're going to be served with legal papers giving them 48 hours

:01:33.:01:36.

to pack their tents. But first, let's get the latest from our

:01:36.:01:44.

correspondent down there, Tamsin Smith. There's a real sense that

:01:44.:01:48.

anticipation is building here. We know there's a meeting ongoing at

:01:48.:01:52.

the Guildhall, where they are hammering out the details of an

:01:52.:01:56.

eviction notice that is going to be served to the protest camp. You can

:01:56.:02:00.

see the camp behind me. They've set up a university, where they are

:02:00.:02:05.

having elects tures, and debates. There are portaloos, a media point,

:02:06.:02:10.

and so they are very much bedding down to stay. It's been a very damp

:02:10.:02:15.

night. There are lots of duvets out airing, but they say that, despite

:02:15.:02:19.

they eviction notice which is going to be served by the City of London

:02:19.:02:22.

Corporation, they will not be moving. They say that, in fact,

:02:22.:02:27.

more protesters will be coming to join them. Interestingly, they say

:02:27.:02:32.

they are also getting lots of funding as well. �1,000 a day, we

:02:32.:02:37.

hear, is pouring in to help fund the protest camp here. And it

:02:37.:02:44.

continues to be an embarrassment, an acute embarrassment for St

:02:44.:02:46.

Paul's Cathedral, who want to stress today that the eviction

:02:46.:02:51.

notice is not being served by them but by the Corporation of London.

:02:51.:02:54.

Do you think there's a risk that the protest might become

:02:54.:02:58.

confrontation as a result of all of this? Sorry, I missed that question.

:02:58.:03:02.

Do you think this protest could become confrontation as a result of

:03:02.:03:06.

this eviction notice? Well, there is not a sense of that. Certainly

:03:06.:03:11.

it is very peaceful at the moment. I've been speaking to some of the

:03:11.:03:16.

protesters, asking them about how long they think they will stay.

:03:16.:03:20.

They say they are happy to stay here until Christmas. Interestingly,

:03:20.:03:26.

they say that this whole debacle, the dilemma it has put the Church

:03:26.:03:30.

in, they say it is positive for them, because it is helping to draw

:03:30.:03:34.

attention to their cause, which primarily is one of anti-capitalism,

:03:34.:03:39.

but you might have seen behind me some of the banners here. There's a

:03:39.:03:43.

raft of disparate cause, very disparate me messages. There isn't

:03:43.:03:47.

a huge sense of cohesion, in terms of the message they are putting

:03:47.:03:52.

across at the moment, but they are riding on the back of the dilemma

:03:52.:03:58.

that's engulfed the St Paul's Cathedral at this moment. Thank you.

:03:58.:04:03.

Dame barb remarks what do you make of what's going on at St Paul's?

:04:03.:04:08.

is going on all over the world. I was in America last week, in

:04:08.:04:11.

Washington and New York, and you've got people camped out there. They

:04:11.:04:15.

are the tip of an iceberg of a lot of people who are really worried

:04:15.:04:18.

about the way the free market system works, and what's happened

:04:18.:04:22.

to banks and the financial system and so on. So they are a small

:04:22.:04:26.

group but they certainly represent a lot hor of the thinking and

:04:26.:04:31.

concern that there is. There are protests two a penny day in and day

:04:31.:04:37.

out, yet why is this one getting the coverage and the impact that

:04:37.:04:42.

others don't? I guess it is because it is global. Also because I think

:04:42.:04:46.

it hits this core that people have, that's what has happened in the

:04:46.:04:50.

last few years in the economy is not fair, not fair for the poorest

:04:50.:04:54.

people in the UK, not fair for the middle income groups who are seeing

:04:54.:04:58.

all the jobs going. People genuinely feel that something is

:04:58.:05:01.

happening here that is not fair. They are not against the Government

:05:01.:05:05.

dealing with the debt crisis but they are saying, "Why is it us?"

:05:05.:05:09.

you think the reason it is making an impact is, in your view, the

:05:09.:05:15.

rightness of the cause, not the tactics they are using in terms of

:05:15.:05:19.

the occupation and the taking on the Church in the City of London?

:05:19.:05:23.

It is a bit of both. A lot of people fundamentally agree with

:05:23.:05:27.

their concerns. They may not agree with camping outside St Paul's. But

:05:27.:05:32.

as they've said on reporting from St Paul's, they've been given a

:05:32.:05:36.

media blessing by the sense of the eviction and all the concerns. Can

:05:36.:05:39.

I understand why the protesters are saying this is getting us into the

:05:39.:05:44.

media and that's good news, it is amplyifying our voice now. Is Oxfam

:05:44.:05:48.

going to learn there from this in the way you campaign? I don't think

:05:48.:05:51.

there is anything wrong with what they are doing as long as they are

:05:51.:05:55.

peaceful. The worry is you might get into a violent situation now.

:05:55.:05:58.

It is perfectly sensible for people to want to demonstrate about things

:05:58.:06:03.

that are wrong in their own society. We would absolutely back that. The

:06:03.:06:06.

tricky bit is it is not entirely clear which bits they are really

:06:06.:06:09.

campaigning against, but that general sense of unease with the

:06:10.:06:14.

economy. Barbara, for now, thank you.

:06:14.:06:17.

So, the latest growth figures are out, and for once the Government

:06:18.:06:21.

may well have let out a sigh of relief. The figures are the first

:06:22.:06:25.

estimate of the third quarter of 2011 and they show that Britain's

:06:25.:06:28.

economy grew by 0.5%, a little better than the 0.3% many expected.

:06:28.:06:32.

However, to give this some context, growth in the last quarter was 0.1%,

:06:32.:06:36.

so some rise was expected. Ed Balls argued earlier in the week that

:06:36.:06:39.

growth would need to be 1.3% for the Government to meet its targets.

:06:39.:06:42.

What's more, separate figures out this morning show that the

:06:42.:06:46.

manufacturing sector shrank by the sharpest rate since June 2009, when

:06:46.:06:49.

Britain was still in recession. Speaking earlier this morning,

:06:49.:06:51.

however, the Chancellor, George Osborne, welcomed the growth

:06:51.:07:01.
:07:01.:07:03.

figures. I think this is a positive step forward for the British

:07:03.:07:06.

commitment it's a better figure than some were expecting this week,

:07:06.:07:10.

given what's happening in the world. And, of course, the British economy

:07:10.:07:14.

has got a difficult journey to take from its debt-fuelled past. That's

:07:15.:07:19.

a journey made more difficult by the kind of problems you see today

:07:19.:07:22.

in the eurozone. But the important thing is today we took a step down

:07:22.:07:27.

that road the road will lead to recovery and prosperity. As the

:07:27.:07:31.

Chancellor said, across the Channel things aren't looking good.

:07:31.:07:33.

Yesterday the OECD downgraded its growth predictions for the eurozone

:07:33.:07:38.

in 2012 from 2% to 0.3%. And this morning the markets took a tumble

:07:38.:07:42.

as they digested the news that the Greek Government has decided to put

:07:42.:07:45.

its latest austerity plans to a referendum. Most opinion polls show

:07:45.:07:48.

a majority of Greeks don't support the measure, and if the vote is

:07:48.:07:55.

lost, it could derail the EU's recovery plans. With us now is the

:07:55.:08:01.

economist, Vicky Pryce, who is Greek herself. Welcome to you. From

:08:01.:08:05.

the Labour frontbench, Chris Leslie, and for the Conservatives, Matt

:08:05.:08:08.

Hancock, a former Bank of England economist and adviser to George

:08:08.:08:14.

Osborne. Welcome to you all. Vicky Pryce, can I begin with you? �0.5%,

:08:14.:08:19.

what can we take from that, what does it mean for the economy?

:08:19.:08:25.

of all it is better than expected, so that is good news. Everybody

:08:25.:08:28.

indicator we've seen in the last couple of months suggests that in

:08:28.:08:31.

fact we are moving into a slower pace of growth, with manufacturing

:08:31.:08:36.

being hit. And the services sector, which did so well in the last

:08:36.:08:40.

quarter it is now also slowing down. Europe is very significant for us.

:08:40.:08:44.

Manufacturing itself, which had done rather well because of Germany

:08:44.:08:48.

in particular, having become a locomotive for growth, is going to

:08:49.:08:52.

suffer, because Germany itself hurts now, showing signs of not

:08:52.:08:57.

growing at all. So a glimmer of positive news for the last three

:08:57.:09:01.

months but it is looking pretty grim for the next three? It does.

:09:01.:09:08.

We had recovered from the previous three months. We had a series of

:09:08.:09:11.

accidents like the bad weather, and then the Royal Wedding. The

:09:11.:09:15.

problems in Japan with the tsunami and the nuclear explosion that we

:09:15.:09:22.

had. There was a serious slowdown in demand for goods in the whole

:09:22.:09:26.

region really, because basically we were exporting quite a lot to them

:09:26.:09:30.

as well. That's recovered. It had to recover, but it is not

:09:30.:09:34.

sustainable, given what's going on around the world. The OECD figures,

:09:34.:09:38.

the forecasts now which are so low, suggest that the problems are going

:09:38.:09:44.

to be significant in 2012 as well. Matt Hancock, how do you tackle the

:09:44.:09:48.

criticism that the Government's policies aren't working enough

:09:48.:09:51.

simply because there is not enough growth in the system, there is no

:09:51.:09:55.

sign of it to come? I'm not sure that's the criticism. I agreed with

:09:55.:09:59.

almost everything that Vicky said. These figures are better than

:09:59.:10:03.

expected, so they are positive, and positive news in that sense. But of

:10:03.:10:08.

course the world economy is in a very difficult place. We learn that

:10:08.:10:11.

Italian Government bonds for instance, interest rates in Italy

:10:11.:10:16.

are now over 6%, which is crippling for them. I look at that and I

:10:16.:10:20.

think, thank goodness that isn't us. So, of course it is very difficult,

:10:20.:10:26.

but the best thing that we can do is make sure that we have the UK as

:10:26.:10:31.

a port of stability in this great crisis that's going on around the

:10:31.:10:35.

world rather than itself facing the wrath of the markets, who are after

:10:35.:10:40.

all the people that we borrowed all this money from. So Chris Leslie a

:10:41.:10:45.

port of stability? I worry there's a bit of complacency creeping in

:10:45.:10:51.

here. I think the idea that 0.5 % growth is a great triumph or even a

:10:51.:10:55.

sign of recovery moving forward, as the Chancellor seems to have

:10:55.:10:58.

sometimes suggest is completely out of touch with reality. The

:10:58.:11:01.

Government shouldn't be taking any comfort from these statistics.

:11:01.:11:05.

Particularly when all the for tents are in terms of manufacturing we're

:11:05.:11:09.

back into contraction, according to the PMI index today. The

:11:09.:11:14.

construction sector has fallen back by 4% in the last year. This is

:11:14.:11:18.

0.5% growth since the Chancellor's great Spending Review. The previous

:11:18.:11:23.

year before that, 2.6%. We really have had a recovery that was

:11:23.:11:26.

completely choked off by the decisions that the Chancellor has

:11:26.:11:32.

made. They are going to try to use this eurozone crisis as an alibi by

:11:32.:11:38.

the export situation doesn't stand up to that story. This is a move

:11:38.:11:42.

backwards because of the choices, the idealogical choices that the

:11:42.:11:45.

Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. A lot of the Treasury

:11:45.:11:49.

background today has been, look, we are in a global crisis, there was a

:11:49.:11:54.

crisis in the eurozone, we are not an island, the politics of John

:11:54.:11:58.

Dunn. How do you respond to that criticism? The policies the

:11:58.:12:02.

Government are mer suing have an impact on growth at the moment.

:12:02.:12:07.

This is an international very difficult situation. The idea that

:12:07.:12:11.

any of the tone of what I've been saying is anything other than that

:12:11.:12:14.

we are in this difficult situation and we are trying to get Britain

:12:15.:12:19.

through it. But what you don't do to get through it is to borrow more,

:12:19.:12:25.

when the problem is that we are in a debt crisis. So, it is, it is

:12:25.:12:29.

serious, it is difficult. What we need to do, I think actually, is on

:12:29.:12:34.

the growth side we need to do more to get growth growing. So for

:12:34.:12:37.

instance, let me give you an example. Make it easier to employ

:12:37.:12:42.

people, by changing from one year to two years the merd that you can

:12:42.:12:49.

employ them -- the period that you can employ them. You can make all

:12:49.:12:52.

the supply-side changes, but if demand isn't there it doesn't

:12:52.:12:55.

matter how much you change employment law. That's why I

:12:55.:12:58.

thought it was right that the Bank of England engaged in another round

:12:59.:13:03.

of qeezing to get money flowing. And we are going to go into credit

:13:03.:13:06.

easing, which is about getting that money into small businesses. The

:13:06.:13:10.

question for people like cries, you can't borrow your way out of a debt

:13:10.:13:14.

crisis. Are they going to support the other measures we are taking to

:13:14.:13:17.

get growth going? You can't cut yourself out of this situation

:13:17.:13:23.

either. Cut sog far and so fast as George Osborne has done has caused

:13:23.:13:27.

problems. It is important that you listen to the people of Britain,

:13:27.:13:31.

who are compass rated by this Government's failure to do anything

:13:31.:13:35.

on growth. The idea that removing employment rights is going to be

:13:35.:13:39.

the salvation for our economy is completely off the planet. It is

:13:39.:13:46.

time you started to take serious measures to boost growth, cutting

:13:46.:13:52.

VAT or putting a banker bonus levy. We've got a five-point plan. What

:13:52.:13:56.

do you make of this debate and are you in Oxfam getting some impact?

:13:56.:14:00.

What impact is it having on organisations like your known

:14:00.:14:10.
:14:10.:14:11.

the moment, not too bad that. Comes -- not too bad. People are

:14:11.:14:14.

concerned and generous about people internationally. Our income from

:14:14.:14:17.

the public has stayed the same. The thing it does do is nobody will

:14:17.:14:21.

commit to the future. Everybody knows that something may happen to

:14:21.:14:25.

their job, so we don't get new people signing. What do you mean by

:14:25.:14:30.

that? We have 400,000 people who commit to giving to Oxfam regularly

:14:30.:14:34.

a fixed amount on direct debit. We can't get new people to sign up to

:14:34.:14:39.

that. They are too uncertain about what will happen to them in future.

:14:39.:14:43.

There is plenty of uncertainty about but for us people have

:14:43.:14:53.
:14:53.:14:56.

Minimising that uncertainty is so important for the future. We need

:14:56.:15:01.

to minimise that rather than borrowing further. Talking of

:15:01.:15:07.

uncertainty, Vicki - a referendum in Greece. How much uncertainty in

:15:07.:15:14.

the short term has that placed over the whole eurozone packet? Huge.

:15:14.:15:20.

Everyone was shocked to hear that they have called for a referendum,

:15:20.:15:29.

and a very interested to hear why they should have done it. Whatever

:15:29.:15:32.

happens between now and when the second bail-out package comes in

:15:32.:15:35.

and then austerity measures for the next couple of years have to be

:15:35.:15:40.

passed, he needs to know he has the backing of his parliament.

:15:40.:15:46.

isn't the risk enormous? It is huge. First of all, we are not sure

:15:46.:15:50.

whether a referendum will take place. He has to pass a confidence

:15:50.:15:54.

vote first of all this week, which includes the referendum. If he

:15:54.:15:59.

doesn't pass that, we will have elections. And what that means is a

:15:59.:16:03.

huge uncertainty over the coming few months anyway. But in addition,

:16:03.:16:08.

what it has shown is that we cannot rely on the deal that has been

:16:08.:16:14.

agreed just a few days ago. It may all be reopened. The uncertainty

:16:14.:16:18.

about the situation is very worrying, and they think if we were

:16:18.:16:23.

genuinely worried, we would have a stronger economy that could

:16:23.:16:26.

withstand some of these international wobbles.

:16:26.:16:31.

Unfortunately, because we are so flatlining in terms of this

:16:31.:16:35.

negligible growth, any internal event destabilise the market and

:16:35.:16:40.

put our economy in jeopardy. This is why we have to have a strong and

:16:40.:16:44.

positive efforts, not just here at home for growth, but the Chancellor

:16:44.:16:48.

and a prime minister who will argue for growth and jobs in Europe. That

:16:48.:16:53.

was the missing factor and a lot of the euro-zone arrangements.

:16:53.:16:57.

Do you think as some Euro-sceptics in your party believe, that this is

:16:57.:17:00.

the moment, if a referendum takes place, that could see the

:17:00.:17:04.

withdrawal of Greece from the euro, and that could bring the whole

:17:04.:17:09.

house tumbling down? They are lobbying with glee about this.

:17:09.:17:13.

the referendum is past, that will give the Greek Prime Minister a

:17:13.:17:17.

strong mandate to drive through the changes to deal with their debts.

:17:17.:17:22.

At the end of the day, at the heart of this crisis, it is a debt crisis.

:17:22.:17:28.

In Greece, in Italy, across the eurozone and here in the UK. That

:17:28.:17:31.

is what the Greek Prime Minister is having a referendum, in order to

:17:31.:17:39.

get the mandate to deal with it. And the problem? Some people may

:17:39.:17:44.

say that a disorganised downfall would be a good idea. I think it is

:17:44.:17:48.

in Britain's economic interests that the euro is strong. Thank you

:17:48.:17:53.

very much indeed for joining us all here today. This debate is clearly

:17:53.:17:57.

one that is going to go on and on. This weekend, the Prime Minister

:17:57.:18:01.

was promising to get tough when it comes to which countries should get

:18:01.:18:06.

aid from Britain, and warned regimes with bad rates on human

:18:06.:18:09.

rights that they might not get cash. But Tory backbenchers are still

:18:09.:18:13.

worried about the size of the Budget at the Department for

:18:13.:18:15.

International Development. Adam has investigated.

:18:15.:18:19.

On a visit to Kenya, then Development Secretary Andrew

:18:19.:18:22.

Mitchell, the only Cabinet minister whose budget is protected from the

:18:22.:18:27.

cuts. It is part of a pledge to eventually bring spending on eight

:18:27.:18:37.
:18:37.:18:38.

up to 0.7% of national income. -- spending on aid. It will go up from

:18:38.:18:45.

�5 billion a year in 2006 to �7.7 billion now. Earlier this year,

:18:45.:18:49.

there were a couple of big reviews, which saw the number of countries

:18:49.:18:54.

receiving aid from us from 43-27. Places like Russia and China came

:18:54.:18:59.

off the list. There has also been a change in priorities, with an

:18:59.:19:03.

emphasis on helping countries develop economic Klee, and helping

:19:04.:19:09.

places affected by conflict. This has raised concerns even among the

:19:09.:19:15.

Department's supporters. They are cutting back room staffed by one

:19:15.:19:22.

third. They are going into more fragile states, places like Somalia

:19:22.:19:26.

and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and therefore the dangers of

:19:26.:19:31.

corruption become greater. And the temptation will be to put more

:19:32.:19:35.

money into multinational organisations like the World Bank

:19:35.:19:39.

for Unesco, where the British taxpayer will not be able to

:19:39.:19:43.

monitor of where their money is going. At this weekend's

:19:43.:19:45.

Commonwealth summit, the Prime Minister repeated his message that

:19:45.:19:50.

aid is going to come with more strings, especially when it comes

:19:50.:19:54.

to human rights. But he has still got to convince some sceptical Tory

:19:54.:19:59.

backbenchers like Caroline Dinenage, who took these photos on a recent

:19:59.:20:04.

fact-finding trip to India. Some of the politicians we spoke to had a

:20:04.:20:07.

sense of almost arrogance about their position on the world stage

:20:07.:20:11.

at the moment. It is almost as if they are the pretty girl at school

:20:11.:20:15.

that everybody now suddenly wants to go out with, and almost an

:20:15.:20:18.

ignorance of the fact that this incredible economic position that

:20:18.:20:22.

they find themselves ent has been built on the back of a population

:20:22.:20:27.

for whom the average wage is a quarter even of China. And then

:20:27.:20:31.

there are those who are question whether any of our aid makes a

:20:31.:20:37.

difference. We are still stuck in what I think of as the 1984 mindset,

:20:37.:20:40.

where yes, there are starving people, and we have got to help and

:20:40.:20:45.

teach them and inoculate them, and we have to do stuff to them.

:20:45.:20:48.

Actually, it should be a partnership where they are doing it

:20:48.:20:55.

and we are helping to enable that. The aid pledge is completely non-

:20:55.:20:59.

negotiable for this government. Future arguments will be about how

:20:59.:21:09.
:21:09.:21:10.

Adam Fleming reporting there. Barbara Stocking, why should the

:21:10.:21:13.

government protect it international aid budget more than its budgets

:21:13.:21:18.

for health or education? Defend the basic position. First of all, the

:21:18.:21:21.

government made the commitment, and this was a pledge given several

:21:21.:21:25.

years ago. I do think the British people think it is a good thing

:21:25.:21:30.

which governments do what they say. They don't always. No, but that is

:21:30.:21:35.

generally a good thing. The British people are generally committed to

:21:35.:21:39.

aid and to make sure that something happens for the poorest people. We

:21:39.:21:44.

see that in the way people come and give money to ask. But will that

:21:44.:21:48.

continue as the economy continues to stagnate? People have given

:21:48.:21:52.

money towards trying to make other people's lives better three times

:21:52.:21:55.

when they have been at their poorest, so I don't think that will

:21:55.:22:01.

be dramatically changed. It is in Britain's interest to do this. When

:22:01.:22:06.

I was over at the UN, it is amazing to see the influence that Britain

:22:06.:22:14.

has. Generally, Britain does this rather well. We have a lot of

:22:14.:22:17.

influence, and we will have a lot of influence in the countries where

:22:18.:22:22.

aid is currently going, because in future, they will be our markets.

:22:22.:22:26.

There are so many different reasons why it is good to stick to the aid

:22:27.:22:32.

commitment. And are you happy for aid to be used as a tool of policy

:22:32.:22:37.

to combat terrorism, create future markets, reduce instability?

:22:37.:22:44.

not directly. It must be directed at the poorest people, and the

:22:44.:22:47.

countries that came out of the bilateral review are in fact the

:22:47.:22:51.

countries which are the poorest and most unstable, and instability is

:22:51.:22:54.

actually one of the things that poor people are mostly concerned

:22:54.:23:00.

about in their countries. Being in an insecure country is just hell on

:23:00.:23:05.

wheels. We are watching that very carefully, because we are worried

:23:06.:23:10.

about whether it were just going to security. The UK NGOs are concerned

:23:10.:23:14.

about where this money is going, and we will continue to watch. But

:23:14.:23:18.

money that goes to countries like Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan,

:23:18.:23:24.

where there are huge numbers of poor people. And India, with its

:23:24.:23:28.

space programmes? India is interesting, because they have so

:23:28.:23:34.

many poor people, but can we use the aid tactically to make sure

:23:34.:23:39.

that it reaches the poor people? With Oxfam, we now have an Oxfam

:23:39.:23:44.

India. That is fantastic because it is saying to Indian middle classes,

:23:44.:23:48.

you have a responsibility for your own poor people. Very quickly,

:23:48.:23:52.

should British policy be discriminating, or should it

:23:52.:23:56.

withhold aid from countries that banner, sexuality? I think you have

:23:56.:24:06.
:24:06.:24:09.

to be very careful with that. ban homosexuality? If you go to

:24:09.:24:14.

local NGOs and onwards, you don't have to pull out just because you

:24:14.:24:17.

don't approve of the government, you can take different steps. We

:24:17.:24:21.

would be nervous about taking money away from the poorest countries

:24:21.:24:25.

because their governments don't have policies we agree with.

:24:25.:24:29.

you detect no change in government policy on this? We think they will

:24:29.:24:34.

stay committed, and we will hold them to that. Thank you very much.

:24:34.:24:38.

Have one organisation making quite a big difference to how Parliament

:24:38.:24:41.

works is the backbench business committee. The green benches were

:24:41.:24:46.

packed as huge numbers of Conservative MPs defied David

:24:46.:24:49.

Cameron's pleas not to vote for a referendum on our relationship with

:24:49.:24:52.

the European Union. That came about because the backbench business

:24:52.:24:56.

committee made it happen. Today, they will be considering whether or

:24:56.:24:59.

not to have a similar debate about the extradition of British citizens

:24:59.:25:05.

to face trial in foreign countries. 1 K is often cited is that of Gary

:25:05.:25:09.

McKinnon, who suffers from an autistic spectrum disorder. He

:25:09.:25:16.

broke into an American computer network and claims he was just

:25:16.:25:20.

looking for UFOs. His mother claims he would not survive the prison

:25:20.:25:27.

system. The US wants him extradited. Dominic Raab is pushing for this

:25:27.:25:32.

debate. Why do you think the extradition system is unfair?

:25:32.:25:36.

had a big drive for enhanced Corporation on counter-terrorism

:25:36.:25:46.
:25:46.:25:48.

after 911. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Also

:25:48.:25:55.

under the European arrest warrant, we have fast track extraditions

:25:55.:25:57.

tainted with evidence of spurious grounds. We need to rebalance, put

:25:57.:26:00.

in a bit more common sense, and basic judicial checks and

:26:00.:26:05.

safeguards. I think it is important to have this debate, because it is

:26:05.:26:10.

the job of Parliament to protect British standards of justice.

:26:10.:26:13.

former Court of Appeal judge, Sir Scott Baker, came to a different

:26:13.:26:22.

conclusion, and he said the system was adequate. Yes, and they read

:26:22.:26:27.

all 486 pages of his report. There were a few flaws in it. They ducked

:26:27.:26:31.

the big issues. Take the Michael Turner case, the case of fast-track

:26:31.:26:35.

extradition, not for a prosecution but a police investigation. That is

:26:35.:26:40.

the kind of case that shouldn't be happening. The Baker report denies

:26:40.:26:44.

it happens, and Michael Turner's case is confined to a single

:26:44.:26:48.

footnote in the report. The second major flaw in the report is that

:26:48.:26:53.

they didn't interview any of the victims, and therefore it is that

:26:53.:26:57.

of shorn of all human dimension. If you are subject of this extradition

:26:57.:27:00.

and you are innocent, it turned your life upside down. What impact

:27:00.:27:06.

you think a debate would have? have the Joint Committee on Human

:27:06.:27:09.

Rights report as well. Lawyers can give their legal opinion. But I

:27:09.:27:13.

think ultimately it is up to elected lawmakers to stand up our

:27:13.:27:17.

justice system and our citizens and to have their voice and they say

:27:18.:27:21.

before the government response than this. How much support you think

:27:21.:27:26.

you will get? At the moment, we have cross-party support. So Ming

:27:26.:27:35.

Campbell, how Francis, -- Sir Menzies Campbell. Particularly

:27:35.:27:38.

constituency MPs for constituents who have suffered under the

:27:38.:27:42.

European arrest warrant. Barbara, due think this new development of

:27:43.:27:46.

the backbench business committee and more backbench power is a good

:27:46.:27:51.

thing? Definitely. The more that people's voice can be heard, and

:27:51.:27:56.

that is a better way of more people being engaged in the debate.

:27:56.:28:04.

Lobbyists feeding into the debate? Yes, we do, and we raised full

:28:04.:28:06.

parliamentary sittings. But that wider view of what the British

:28:06.:28:10.

people are wanting and the debates they want to have held has got to

:28:10.:28:14.

be good for democracy. And in the wake of expenses and the

:28:14.:28:18.

downgrading of Parliament, you think it is a good thing?

:28:18.:28:23.

Definitely. There is a bigger issue here as well. We tend to assume

:28:23.:28:26.

that politicians are all the same, but there is a difference between

:28:26.:28:31.

Parliament and legislature, and the executive. There is also my job as

:28:31.:28:36.

a backbencher and a lawmaker to hold the government to account and

:28:36.:28:39.

scrutinise policy. Thank you both very much for being with us here

:28:39.:28:44.

The City of London is telling the anti-capitalist campers they've got 48 hours to leave, or face eviction. Could this lead to running battles on the steps of St Paul's Cathedral?

The Greek prime minister has stunned the rest of Europe by announcing a referendum on the latest bail-out deal. We speak to economist Vicky Pryce, Labour's Chris Leslie and Conservative Matt Hancock, who is a former Bank of England economist.

Plus we discuss the extradition of UK citizens - and the case of Gary Mckinnon - with Tory MP Dominic Raab.

Joining Jo Coburn for the whole programme is Oxfam chief executive Dame Barbara Stocking.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS