07/11/2011 Daily Politics


07/11/2011

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LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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There have been no major headaches at the Home Office since Theresa

:00:25.:00:28.

May took charge, but is she about to face her first tough test? The

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Home Secretary is due to make a statement to the Commons later

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following reports that staff at the UK Border Agency secretly relaxed

:00:34.:00:40.

identity checks on people arriving in the country this summer.

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Greece gets a new government of national unity. Its first task will

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be to ratify the new European financial rescue package. We'll be

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asking will it be enough to avert a eurozone crisis?

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Now here's a questions for you - has the market slipped its moral

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moorings? We hope to give you an answer.

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:01:13.:01:14.

And handbags at dawn as the parties All that in the next half hour and

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with me for the whole programme today is academic, writer,

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broadcaster, Germaine Greer, and the former editor of the Sun,

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Kelvin Mackenzie. First this morning, let's turn our

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attention to the eurozone and Greece because politicians are

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meeting to appoint a new prime minister after parties agreed to

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form a unity government. The new coalition will need to approve the

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EU bail out package proposed by European leaders to rescue Greece

:01:38.:01:48.
:01:48.:01:50.

from its debt crisis. Let's say we get this unity government and they

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agree the bail out package, are you reassured the eurozone crisis will

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be sorted? I don't think there's enough money to sort out Greece,

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let alone Italy. If the reports are true, the government may have to

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write a cheque for 40 billion. Danny Alexander says that is

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drawing their liabilities. If this government wants to become the most

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disliked government I can ever remember, right that cheque for 40

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billion without going through the Commons to seek permission and that

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will be the end of Cameron, the end of the coalition, the people will

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never forgive them, I promise you that. Apart from that apocalyptic

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view, returning to Greece and Italy, that possibly is a bigger problem.

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Now the discussions are about eurozone breaking up, is that

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likely? There are various aspects that never get touched on. One is,

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I think Greece has a fairly big black economy. It also has people

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unwilling to pay taxes. They say they have a relaxed view to paying

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taxes. That puts them in direct conflict with the EU, which has

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done its best to cut down on the black economy. The interesting

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thing about that is that Italy has an even bigger black economy. It is

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a safe bet that given the present situation, people are resorting to

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it more and more. You can't even barter under EU regulations. It is

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illegal. The problem is they are saying even if the eurozone breaks

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up, that is the problem, structural problems within these countries

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will persist. Joining me now is the economist

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Marie Diron from Ernst And Young. What is your prediction as this

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crisis unfolds? We think the most likely scenario is the eurozone

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will stay in its current shape because a break-up would lead to a

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chain of negative of its -- affects. That is why we think that despite

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difficult negotiations within Greece, Italy and the eurozone as a

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whole, policy makers will do their utmost to keep the eurozone in its

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current form. You say that is the least bad scenario, the worst

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scenario is the eurozone breaking up, but the G20 were just talking

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about the break-up of the eurozone. They economists say a break-up of

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the euro would not be a catastrophe. It is a possibility that we can't

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exclude and that is why we have carried out analysis. We think it

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would be a very negative scenario. The channels through which the

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economy would be damaged would be via increased uncertainty in

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financial markets, share prices would plunge, trade would collapse.

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Maybe similar to what we saw in 2008 and 2009. That is why this

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crisis would transmit to a global crisis. As we are looking at

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uncertainty in Greece and the problem of Italy trying to service

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its debt, which is growing daily, and they will probably also have to

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be bailed out, is that any better than what you have just described?

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It is a costly crisis to solve. There have been problems developing

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in the eurozone due to inappropriate structures throughout

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the last decade. Now it will be a very costly and protracted crisis

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to resolve, but the alternative is even more costly. We think it is in

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the interests of everyone to preserve the eurozone in its

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current state and to take this crisis as an opportunity to reform

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and to implement changes in these economies that have not been

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carried out for the last 10 years. Thank you. On that basis we have to

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stick a long the current half, do you agree with that? I don't. The

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issue there is why should I give a damn about Greece? Even Sarkozy

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said Greece should never have been allowed into the eurozone and the

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only reason they got in was because they got Goldman Sachs to write a

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cricket book about their accounts. I would send some of the bill to

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Goldman Sachs and say to Greece, it is in your nature, you don't want

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to pay tax, I don't want to pay tax, but the bottom line is, why are we

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always going to write the cheque? It hasn't worked for us. Sarkozy

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said we are not -- an island nation. Germany and France, it is just a

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line in the sand. It is time we faced up to the fact we don't 1

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euros. You are grimacing. Well, Britain doesn't want the euro, but

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the other country that didn't on the roof is Switzerland. Has there

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been a run on the Swiss currency? You can bet your bottom dollar that

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money is moving now fast, including money from the oil-rich Arab states,

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money from China. I want to know where the money is going. Once you

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tell me that, I think I know what to do next. Countries within the

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eurozone, the government argueds we are not paying for this, even if we

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are contributing to the IMF. In that sense we are still outside the

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zone and so we are away from it. What about if the eurozone does

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break-up? If we have the drachma come back to Greece. Let's say

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Italy becomes a problem, that will affect us. It will do. These are

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issues for each individual country. People say if it collapses, so does

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a whole of the European project. That is what she's saying. She is

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an Economist, what do they know? You quoted another collection of

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economists who say the opposite. My sense is we are quite capable of

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growing our own canoe. We can't control each individual Prime

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Minister. They all make promises and they all want to retain their

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individual country's standards of living. It is not possible. I have

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enough debts of my own, I don't want any Greek or Italian debt.

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will have to stop you there, we will talk about your debts later!

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Now it's time for our daily quiz and today it has an ethical

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dimension. That's because a report on the morality of City workers is

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being released right now. It's been written by the former banker, Ken

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Costa, who was appointed by the Bishop of London. But what does Mr

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Costa, a committed Christian, think is the best system to create growth

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At the end of the show we'll give you the correct answer. On that

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very note, about capitalism, Ed Miliband says the protest at St

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Paul's reflects the feelings of millions that the Community and the

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country are not working for them. - - the economy. Is he right?

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would be difficult to know how many people think it because it is not a

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very big demonstration. It is not exactly shaking the foundations of

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the state. It is kind of a stalemate. However, those of us who

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don't understand money, most of us, have been bewildered about how

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money was expected to grow money. And about the use of leverage, for

:09:27.:09:32.

example. We saw banking depart from its own basic principles, but

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banking didn't pick up the tab, ordinary people, pension funds

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picked up the tab. People are very bitter about this. Some people

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think charging interest is itself immoral. If you think of the

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Islamic approach to the lending of money. Banking was invented by a

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group of people who have been blamed for just about everything

:09:54.:09:58.

that has gone wrong in the last couple of millennia. Banking has

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got itself to a stage where it is less useful vanities noxious and

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that has to be fixed. It has tapped into the consciousness of a lot of

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people. Maybe there are not many people there, but people are

:10:17.:10:22.

worried and they think capitalism is to some extent a bit of an evil.

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Well, yes, I didn't hear any of these complaints between 1994 and

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2007 when everybody was going on 7,000 holidays and living in

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massive houses. It goes like this, the economy. We have good times and

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bad times. Thanks to e-mail and Twitter, nobody is prepared to

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accept the bad times. Banks over Lent, but people over-borrowed. It

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is about people wanting what they think is free money. When it came

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to paying it back, they couldn't. Should politicians regulate more?

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Kelvin does have a point, people don't want to be told what to do

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with their money. Should governments and politicians say we

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are going to meet you and banks be better regulated so we don't have

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what is happening now happen again? We have been told the problem

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wasn't a lack of regulation in the banking industry. The banking

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industry was over-regulated. The banking industry has its own

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principles and it has to admit it departed from them. One of the

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things Ken Costa has raised is that maximising profit should be the

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only issue for shareholders, do you agree? So many people have been

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forced to contribute to fault of those people. They did

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what they were told. They were told to save and now they're being

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punished. That is part of where the anger comes from. But it affects

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older people and older people tend to be patient in these

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circumstances. Coming back to your point about people not accepting

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the bad times, do you think things will change? It will come and go

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and politicians, there's nothing they can really do? To start with

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politicians are not in charge of anything and they don't have the

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brains. There's many more brains in the City working on Monday and many

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more brains in manufacturing and the world I know, small-time

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entrepreneurs. They are clever people. But they have winners and

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losers. Politicians should stop saying we are going to increase

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your standard of living, that will not happen. Every morning they

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should get up and say how can we cut spending at the centre so we

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can leave more money for ordinary people to spend it in a manner they

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want. Leave me alone. We will leave you alone but only for a moment!

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Spare a thought for the Home Secretary. When the Home Office is

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in the news, it's almost never going to be good, and so it is with

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Theresa May and a brewing scandal surrounding the UK Border Agency.

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The problems began at the beginning of the summer when, in an attempt

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to bring down the queues, UK Border Officials were told they didn't

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have to check the biometric chips have to check the biometric chips

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of passports of European citizens. There have been reports in the

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press that this order came from the Immigration Minister Damian Green

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and he was backed by the Home Secretary Theresa May. It's now

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been alleged, however, that there was an instruction to staff to do

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the same for people coming in from outside the EU, leading to fears

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that criminals could have entered the country. The Public and

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Commercial Services Union has claimed the controls were relaxed

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to compensate for staffing cuts. So far three senior officials,

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including Brodie Clarke, who's the head of the UK Border Force, have

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been suspended and Theresa May is said to have reacted to allegations

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with "incredulity and fury". The Home Secretary will make a

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statement in the Commons this afternoon where she'll face

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questions over who knew what at the Home Office and whether anyone who

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posed a threat to the UK came into the country. Yvette Cooper, who's

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the Shadow Home Secretary, has called on the Home Office to launch

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a wide ranging independent inquiry and has said all documents and

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correspondence relating to the correspondence relating to the

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passport checks be published. I'm joined now by the Conservative MP

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Mark Reckless, who sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee, and the

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Shadow Home Office Minister Chris Bryant. Are you surprised and

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worried that there was top level agreement to relax controls on EU

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citizens? I'm a little surprised it wasn't reported to Parliament, but

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I think the relaxation for non- EU people is much more serious. With

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the EU, there's little we can do, even if we apprehend people, but

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non-EU, the situation there was relaxation is very serious and the

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suggestion ministers were not aware is even more serious. How clear was

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the message given to UK Borders Agency staff? If they were saying

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relax the restrictions on EU nationals, we've got to cut down

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those queues, do you know exactly what was said to the staff? It

:15:07.:15:17.
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I am looking forward to finding out more this afternoon but I would be

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very surprised if ministers had authorised this for non-EU people.

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In my dealings with the Home Office, it seems there was a culture of

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impunity at the top of the Civil Service. The previous head of

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:15:43.:15:46.

British Airways was not fit for purpose but she was promoted, and I

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think there should be parliamentary confirmation hearings for all

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senior civil servants to root out the problems. Do you accept there

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was a lot of political pressure? Over the last six months there were

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endless statements by politicians saying we have to encourage economy

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and boost tourism, cut down the queues and that means general

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relaxation. But we have with the biometrics, we have serious

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advances in technology. If you compare the numbers to other

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agencies overseas doing this work, or what it would take in the

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private sector, I think it is a serious problem with management at

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the top and ministers need to sort that out directly. Nothing to do

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with the cuts? I think we need to get some details are out. We need

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to know exactly what was signed off by it either Damian Green or

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Theresa May this summer because there have been different versions

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about whether it was EU or non-EU citizens. I think it is dangerous

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to say we will waive all the non-EU citizens the room. You can't do the

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proper risk assessment in terms of potential criminals and terrorists

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coming into the country. Do you expect every passenger coming into

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the UK to be seen by an immigration officer? I would be -- I would

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prefer the biometric cheque to be done. But if you expect every

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passenger to be checked, we have already got statements here from

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the Immigration Service Union saying that is supposed to happen

:17:30.:17:34.

but there aren't enough staff to cover certain planes or freight

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traffic. I don't think it is a question of staff will stop that is

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what they are saying. Clearly the union will stand up for its members,

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but what I have seen of the UK BAe is that it is still not fit for

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purpose. If ministers decide EU citizens can be waved through, and

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secondly may well indeed have said that none the you citizens should

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be waved through, I want to know why has Theresa May not been out

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there explaining what will be happening? She will be making a

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statement this afternoon. She could have already published this

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information. If government doesn't give enough resources to UK British

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Airways to make sure there is enough staff are there to be able

:18:24.:18:29.

to pass every passport over the machines, then you are bound to

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have these problems. One of the biggest concerns for the public is

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even if it was only for EU citizens, we don't know who has come into the

:18:39.:18:43.

country over those some warmth. That reflects free movement of

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people within the EU. We should have border controls properly

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enforced against all countries. This is precisely so we can take

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action against criminals or terrorists. I am confused, I have

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always gone straight through. I could be the Great Train robber, in

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fact some people think I am. I get sailed through so I don't see what

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the issue is. May I observed as a non- EU passport holder who doesn't

:19:22.:19:27.

hold a British passport either, that I have never waved through. I

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have to queue, so it is news to me there has been any attempt to

:19:33.:19:40.

shorten the queues. Sometimes we have a UK residents queue, which is

:19:40.:19:44.

amazing, otherwise we are waiting for hours. We also have to fill out

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a landing card, what do they do with them? I suppose there will

:19:52.:19:57.

reach is you definitely are checked when you are going through, we are

:19:57.:20:01.

yet to establish what the order was in terms of non e u but it comes

:20:01.:20:07.

back to this question about non-EU citizens. If people were waved

:20:07.:20:10.

through, we can't know who was coming into the country. I have

:20:10.:20:16.

gone through biometric and the old fashioned method. Bizarrely, the

:20:16.:20:23.

old-fashioned method is faster than the single laying biometrics. I am

:20:23.:20:30.

puzzled us to who has been affected. I don't know any non-EU citizens, I

:20:30.:20:37.

don't hang around with them. Yes, you do! He was it who has been

:20:37.:20:43.

damaged in this manner? If Damian Green has given the go-ahead to non

:20:43.:20:48.

e us to sail through passport control, that would be utterly

:20:48.:20:54.

wrong. -- to none at the you citizens. At the queues are

:20:54.:21:00.

dreadful - what is the problem? need to make sure the UK Border

:21:00.:21:04.

Agency has enough resources to make sure there are not long queues and

:21:04.:21:08.

that they don't have to cut corners in order to cut queues. I think

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that means this applies to both types of citizens, biometric

:21:18.:21:24.

passport should be passed over. will be hearing from Theresa May

:21:24.:21:29.

this afternoon. Thank you. If you hate it, you call it

:21:29.:21:32.

positive discrimination. If you love it, it's positive action. But

:21:32.:21:35.

no matter what it's called, all the main parties are trying to do

:21:35.:21:38.

something to increase the number of women in their ranks. That's

:21:38.:21:40.

because polling shows that women are more likely to be undecided

:21:40.:21:50.
:21:50.:21:55.

about who to vote for compared to Meet the wife of the great

:21:55.:21:58.

grandfather of the stepfather of the wife of David Cameron, Nancy

:21:58.:22:03.

Astor, more relevantly in 1919 she became the first woman ever to take

:22:03.:22:09.

a seat in the Commons. By 1931, there were more, but these days

:22:09.:22:12.

Britain is not exactly a leading the world with the number of women

:22:12.:22:21.

in Parliament. Westminster is 22% female, behind Pakistan's

:22:21.:22:31.
:22:31.:22:35.

parliament, 22.2% female. Photo opportunities have not moved on

:22:35.:22:39.

since their days, but Labour has been responsible for a big increase

:22:39.:22:43.

in the visibility of women at Westminster. Thanks to all-women

:22:43.:22:48.

short lists for candidates, the front bench has been recently

:22:48.:22:53.

refreshed with lots of women on it. Labour's deputy leader has been

:22:53.:22:58.

holding hand back only all-female meetings at the Shadow Cabinet.

:22:58.:23:02.

idea that she is running some sort of parallel shadow cabinet within

:23:02.:23:07.

the party, I don't think that is what she is trying to do. She is

:23:07.:23:12.

creating a space where, as women in the parliamentary party, we can

:23:12.:23:17.

come together and talk about issues from our particular perspective.

:23:17.:23:23.

Amen allowed to come along? Some of them are women only, girls want to

:23:23.:23:28.

get together for a cup of tea sometimes. The issue for David

:23:28.:23:32.

Cameron is that his popularity amongst Women is falling, according

:23:32.:23:36.

to internal party polling, hence why a lady MP was never far from

:23:36.:23:41.

his side at the conference. Years ago he made a pledge that a third

:23:41.:23:45.

of his first government would be female, then raging some of his MPs.

:23:45.:23:50.

I ask for female MPs and they say I don't want to be there as

:23:50.:23:55.

Parliament quota, I want to be there on my ability. I feel enraged

:23:55.:24:00.

that a third of the Cabinet has to be women because of a quota. It is

:24:01.:24:03.

nonsense, doesn't bear a resemblance what is right for the

:24:03.:24:13.

country. Nick Clegg has the teacher -- the T-shirt, but very few female

:24:13.:24:18.

MPs. He is signing up people to be super candidates for the next

:24:18.:24:23.

election. The career of Westminster's first lady didn't end

:24:23.:24:27.

to well, and the party leader who fails to keep in tune with what

:24:27.:24:33.

women want could suffer the same fate.

:24:33.:24:38.

Germaine Greer, David Cameron has a women's problem, according to

:24:38.:24:43.

internal polling. What can he do about it? The problem it is his

:24:43.:24:53.
:24:53.:24:55.

party, Parliament itself. You remember when he made the blunder

:24:55.:25:02.

calling no been frustrated. His problem was the immediate go for,

:25:02.:25:08.

it wasn't even a double entendre, it was a 1 1/2 entendre, and they

:25:08.:25:13.

went berserk. Asexual lies that particular member of Parliament

:25:13.:25:17.

because she is blonde. She is in her 50s with grown-up children, she

:25:17.:25:23.

was accused of a one-night stand, and that is his problem. Parliament

:25:23.:25:27.

is a profoundly unpleasant experience for many of the women

:25:27.:25:34.

who enter it. They have stood down and stood down. If you look at the

:25:34.:25:39.

original Blair's Babes in take, many of them walked away. They

:25:39.:25:43.

couldn't learn the ropes because nobody would teach them and they

:25:43.:25:47.

didn't understand the system of patronage, horse-trading, making

:25:47.:25:56.

alliances. What do you do - change what happens first. You need to

:25:56.:25:59.

attract more women, but you're saying you need to change the

:25:59.:26:05.

manner in which Parliament is run. The women I know are cleverer than

:26:05.:26:15.
:26:15.:26:22.

the men. Women MPs? Women MPs as well. The women I know are clever,

:26:22.:26:29.

ballsy and pushy. The problem seems to me that when they get defeated

:26:29.:26:33.

at the moment, when they get defeated, they don't get preferment,

:26:33.:26:37.

something doesn't happen, they begin to think about whether this

:26:37.:26:43.

is for them. I just wonder whether they have got to be as tough and

:26:43.:26:47.

clever as they are away from the house inside the house. I have no

:26:47.:26:52.

doubt, looking out the current intake of Conservative women MPs

:26:52.:26:58.

that I know, that they will be the leaders of tomorrow. Is that

:26:58.:27:03.

because they are younger and this is a new generation? Blair's Babes

:27:03.:27:09.

was part of the political class that existed at that time. Do you

:27:09.:27:13.

think they will stay the course? One of the problems of being

:27:14.:27:17.

younger is you will be treated and used as a junior. You will be

:27:17.:27:22.

dragooned into supporting policies you are only partly in favour of.

:27:22.:27:27.

The important thing is who write the agenda, and the women don't get

:27:27.:27:32.

to write the agenda because that is to do with patronage. Hold on a

:27:32.:27:36.

second, what about Margaret Thatcher? She wrote an agenda that

:27:36.:27:44.

has gone around the world 30 times. It is not a question of intellect,

:27:44.:27:48.

long-term ambition - are they prepared to take a punch on the

:27:48.:27:54.

nose? If so, they are fantastic. is tougher than that. Margaret

:27:54.:27:59.

Thatcher is an example. Tony Blair leaves politics and is now a

:27:59.:28:04.

billionaire. What does Margaret do? She went lecturing in the United

:28:04.:28:08.

States. She didn't get any of the lucrative board positions offered

:28:08.:28:15.

to politicians leaving power. She was outside the loop. She wasn't

:28:15.:28:18.

able to exploit the connections everybody else does. She played the

:28:18.:28:25.

politics game absolutely on face value. She was never part of the

:28:25.:28:35.

inner circle. Just before we go, we have got to find the answer to our

:28:35.:28:44.

quiz. Ken Costa has been asked by the Bishop of London to look at how

:28:44.:28:47.

a form of ethical capitalism could work. But what does Mr Costa - a

:28:47.:28:51.

Christan and an investment banker - think is the best system to create

:28:51.:28:56.

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