08/12/2011 Daily Politics


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Prime Minister


is off to Brussels. His backbenchers want him to fight


tooth and claw to defend British interests and bring something back.


But is there anything he can do? Any piece of paper he can wave on


his return that will satisfy their blood lust for a referendum on


leaving Europe? How difficult is it to get into Britain without a


passport? Well, apparently all you have to do is get as far as


Brussels, buy a ticket to Lille, and simply don't get off the train!


We'll find out why this so-called loophole is so difficult to close.


And, are the British tabloids a force for good? We'll ask one of


And here he is. With us for the duration, red-top legend that is


Kelvin Mackenzie. So, if you have any thoughts or comments on


anything we are discussing, then But first, that story over just how


easy it is to get into Britain without the bother of having to


carry a passport. Apparently, you don't need one to get from Brussels


to Lille on the Eurostar. And once you are on the train, there is,


unbelievably, nothing to stop you just sitting there until you get to


London. In the words of Richard Littlejohn, is this one you just


I had no idea bus-stop when you get into the detail of its creditors


more shocking. The border guards knew it was going on. They


recognise two Iranians who are going to try to push their way


through into the UK. They stop them and point them out to the Belgian


police. They say, you cannot do anything and we could actually


arrest you for trying to stop these two Iranians coming to your land.


This is one of the bad MRS of Europe as it stands. When there was


a 17 and a 10, these kinds of issues would grow and grow. This is


another example of a two-track Europe. We're outside the Shelton


agreement. What can the Government actually do? They are heading our


way. At St Pancras, they could have a massive checking system. I would


be in favour of it. This second thing is, we could actually not


have a benefit system which encourages the rest of the world to


think they can come here. Why don't they want to stay in Belgium and


France? We should do two things at the centre but we should be tough


about it. One thing I despair about any government, nobody actually


embraces what ordinary people's common sense would tell them. We


should do something about this kind of stuff. It is beyond me. It is a


vote-winner. Why don't they say, we are going to go...? We are going to


send armed guards to Lille and shoot them. Before you do say


something we should not on the programme... Like invade Belgium!


Don't you start. Move on briefly to the other story that has emerged


and this is a move to the Government in terms of proposals


being offered to NHS workers. Up until now, they said anyone earning


under 15,000 will not have to pay contributions. Now it is 26 and a


half 1000 pounds. Will it be enough? -- �26,500. The Government


has moved. Obviously they want a deal. I am astonished that the


Government moved at all. They want a deal. Fantastic! The kind of


offer that, in private industry, you would not have come within 1000


miles off. If the finance director says, we are stopping the final


salary, that is your lot, you get on with it. Why do state workers


get preferment? Why are 23 million of us who are outside the system


having to fund it? I think we know where he stands on the deal. He is


sitting on the fence were stuck the unions do not agree with you.


the fence. The unions do not agree with Kelvin MacKenzie. The Bank of


England has announced that interest rates are staying at 0.5%. No


surprise. Most City analysts expect interest rates to stay at that rate


for all of 2012. QED is at 275 billion as well. -- quantitative


easing. It is the economy and the main stories to do with that is the


big summit in Brussels. Yesterday, at PMQs, Tory backbenchers lined up


to urge the Prime Minister to show bulldog spirit in speaking up for


British interests in the face of French and German proposals to


rewrite the way the eurozone operates. Well, severe gales are


buffeting the country today and it is likely to be pretty stormy over


the Channel in Brussels for, wait for it, another make or break


summit to save the euro. Key to the discussion is how to bring enough


budgetary discipline into the eurozone to stop anything like the


current crisis happening again. Germany and France argue this needs


to be enforced by a change in the existing EU treaties and they want


to see the European Commission have new powers to impose penalties on


eurozone countries that have large budget deficits as well as having


common corporation and financial Some see this as the creation of


what is effectively a new country, which would have profound


implications for our relationship to the rest of Europe. David


Cameron is desperate to avoid any major treaty change that could lead


to demands for a referendum here in the UK. Something that both London


Mayor Boris Johnson and the Northern Ireland Secretary Owen


Paterson have said could be necessary. However, Downing Street


have made it clear that, whilst any new treaty may need to go through


Parliament, it is unlikely there would be any need for a referendum.


The Prime Minister is also under huge pressure from within his party


to claw back powers from Europe in return for any concessions. However,


France and Germany appear unwilling to help out him out, which could


mean the 17 countries of the eurozone going it alone and


adopting their own treaty. And our political correspondent, Iain


Watson, is in Brussels for us now. In terms of the Government, what is


worse for David Cameron? I think he is stuck. He will be here in a few


hours' time. I have got here rather ahead of him. It even if he lives


here and a deal is done to stabilise the euro, I have spoken


to a whole range of Euro-sceptic backbenchers. They said, even if he


comes back and declares victory, we will see it as the FT. It is not


enough to safeguard British interests over the City of London.


-- defeat. They want to see him coming back here and using this


process to get powers back from Brussels. That seems unlikely. Some


people want to see a referendum. Up the Merkozy proposals are quite


major. Even a couple of people in the Cabinet will argue it is so


major it would trigger a referendum in the UK. That is not what David


Cameron wants to see and it is not what Lib Dem ministers want to see.


It would put the whole coalition on the rocks. It is a very limited,


very minor treaty change. The second battle he has to face is


what he the -- what it will take for the French and Germans to stand


up for British interests? They are saying the very minimum demands


about protecting the City of London is not something they were


necessarily agree with. They will stay here as long as it takes to


get the kind of agreement they want and Britain is poor full tour of


Anyway it is the 7th European summit Fisher. Six have come up so


far with completely comprehensive plans to sort out the European


crisis so no doubt the 7th will as well. With us now is the


Conservative MP, Bernard Jenkin, who has written in today's Guardian


that this summit represents the end game for the European Union as we


know it. We also have the former Lib Dem leader, Ming Campbell, and


the Conservative MP, Nick Boles. What do you want Mr Cameron to come


back with from Brussels? He should make it clear that he has done his


best to help our European partners through this crisis. The changes


they are now proposing, they may not have a direct legal impact on


the United Kingdom that they will have a big impact on our relations


with the European Union. He will need to consult with Parliament and


with the British people on this. Ultimately there will need to be a


referendum. He should stop fiscal union going ahead? No. These treaty


changes will take months. He should come back with an agreement in


principle that we need a new relationship with the European


Union. It should be based on the principle that the laws of this


land to be made by people who are elected and are directly affected


by them. If European institutions in this new economic state will be


working for the 17, they will not be working for us. I still do not


know what you want to bring back. want to bring back an agreement


that Parliament will decide what applies to the European Union in


this country. You want us to leave the European Union? It is up to


Parliament and the Government of the day to negotiate with the


European Union as to what applies - what rules apply and what do not.


We want to remain in the customs union. I would suggest that Bernard


Jenkin, Santa is not going to bring him what he wants this Christmas.


His endgame can only result in being out. If that is what they all


say. I have just been in America for three days. Everywhere I went


much members of Congress, reporters, commentators, are you going to


solve the eurozone crisis? It is an important component in the economic


recovery of the United States. It is also important about the


possibility of Barack Obama being elected. If the agreement founders


because of an argument about the time directive on the fishing


policy, then our allies... You want powers repatriated. These are the


kinds of powers that people talk about. If it fails because of that,


our friends in the United States were not understand what we have


done. What do you want the Prime Minister to bring back? As a rule,


Bernard has been more right on this issue than Ming Campbell for the


last 20 years. My defence is one of tactics and cunning. Today is the


moment of maximum economic danger for Britain. Retail sales are


falling, Brazil has stalled, China has stalled. The entire global


economy is sitting on the edge of an abyss. We need to protect our


economy and jobs but getting this crisis fixed. We need to come to


that after we have saved our economy. What do you want him to


bring back? What I want David Cameron to do is to protect our


economy, Protect our jobs. That is the moment - protecting the City of


London. He needs to get a solution to the crisis so the entire


European economy does not fall apart. It is much more serious than


in 2008. The priority is to save the eurozone. Otherwise we will or


head into a recession and a depression and then come back to


what you want to raise at a more appropriate time. The idea it will


be easier to discuss this after they had done and dusted everything


is absolutely ludicrous. There is no need for this to hold up the


European Union. We're not talking about a whole lot of detailed,


complex things like fishing law. It has to be a general decision that


our membership will be conducted on a different principle. Why wouldn't


everyone else wants that? -- want. Can I just finished my point? If


they were to agreed that in principle, there is no need to hold


up anything. All the data could There are two important principles,


proportionality and subsidiarity. That means Brussels does not do


what cannot be done better by individual states. These are


technically part of the jurisprudence of the European Union.


We want to have an emphasis on these things. They are entirely


consistent with localism. They would stop some of the gold plating,


which goes on when European Union proposals reach the United Kingdom,


and they would bring about the reform of the European Union, which


everyone accepts is necessary, but cannot be done by the kind of


apocalyptic suggestions made by Bernard. If Bernard Jenkin got his


way, he may be right, maybe not, but we will no longer be a member


of the European Union if he gets his way. That would be true if we


go about it in the way that Bernard is suggesting. But it is not


necessarily true. But we are going to have to work out an entirely new


kind of relationship, and that is a big exercise. It offers huge


opportunities for Britain, but it is going to take two or three years.


It is not the work of a weekend when the global economy is on a


precipice. But the Lib Dems have nothing to say about what our


relationship would be with Europe if there was a new, central, pal


full eurozone, of which we would not be part. It does change the


whole dynamic... It certainly makes for an inner core and an outer core.


But it certainly does not stand in the way of relationship up to but


not including membership of the single currency. We will be


outvoted on every issue. remember, there are 10 countries in


the EU who are not members. last time I looked, 17 is higher


than 10, so we get outvoted. lots of majority decisions are


required to be made. There are plenty of allies to be found


outside the 17, if we really want to change the philosophy and the


practicalities. All the briefing I got this morning was that it was


26-1, even the Polish, the Hungarians, the Danish, have lined


up. Why is that? The reason why is because the British Prime Minister,


yesterday at PMQs, and today again, has been substantially undermined


by his own party. Rubbish. We're back to John Major and the bustards.


Thank you very much. There is going to be a lot of bustards. The people


I know among Tory MPs say that when the voting happens, it will be well


into the 120s, 140s. So when the voting goes through Parliament on


whatever this is, I could see... You're in expert on many things,


Kelvin, including an expert on the modern Tory party, most of whom you


have never met! I have got 20 quid, that it will be 120 MPs, let's see


who knows the most. You have met each other now. This programme


wants to bring people together. Thank you, gentleman. I was going


to say, this is what it will be like in Brussels. At least they all


speak different languages, so it gets lost in translation. With a


series of victims, a stellar cast of celebrities, and eyebrow raising


statements, the Leveson inquiry has been quite the eye-opener. The


target has been the tabloid press, but they are now starting to ask if


the inquiry is really fair. Giles has been trying to find the good


side of the past. If you work for a newspaper, the last weeks of the


Leveson inquiry have been uncomfortable. At the moment I


think we have a press which has just become frankly putrid.


High King of Milly Dowler's telephone was not a bad thing for a


well-meaning journalist, who was only trying to help find the girl.


What you do is, you say, a security source said, and when a load of


quotes from a source, which charges made up of the top of my head.


Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson, they're the scum of journalism for


trying to drop me in it. newspapers have become part of the


political process, yet without any of the accountability which other


parts of the political process are subject to. In the fortnight or so


since Lord Leveson started hearing evidence, we have heard how the


tabloid press have mistreated families like Milly Dowler's and


the McCann's. The press have admitted to certain things they


have done which the public would be shocked about. But now, the tabloid


press are starting to say it is too much one-way traffic. People from


the industry now seem to be the grubby journalists, the people who


admit having hacked phones or making up stories, and they have


been given a huge platform to explain what they did. And the


decent, honest journalists, like the 280 who lost their jobs at the


News of the World, are not being given any say. In the committee I


sit on, which is looking into privacy and super-injunctions, we


have heard from tabloid proprietors and tabloid journalists, and they


have given as good as they have taken. I don't think the voice of


the boding tabloid journalist is going unheard on this. If anybody


thinks that's the case, and if Leveson thinks it is the case, it


is open to him to call them as witnesses. So, what would they say


if they were in the room? Their defence has seem to be that the


tabloids always have been and still Lara force for good. Just before we


close, we secured a Military Covenant, enshrined in law, which


the Prime Minister had refused to do. The Sun has this week launched


a campaign to try to stop the cuts in armed forces' pay. We have had


campaigns such as Sara's law, relating to predatory paedophiles.


Parents have the right to know if they are living in their


communities. And we have campaigns such as help for heroes, in the Sun,


which has raised masses of money for Armed Forces charities, and has


changed the way this country things about our soldiers, who put their


lives on the line. In terms of hearing evidence, Leveson has a


long way to run. In terms of being fair, according to some of the


newspapers, Leveson has a long way to go. I'm joined now by the Labour


MP Chris Bryant, who has had less than welcome attention from the


tabloids and the past. We had hoped to be joined by the chief executive


It has always been in the gutter. And it is quite a good place to be,


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds


actually. The idea is that you are Tony you have earned up to the fact


that you hardly ever check whether any stories were true. You have


spent a great deal of time to piling the idea of any hacking.


Indeed, I remember going on many Indeed, I remember going on many


programmes with you, where you said, categorically, that you could not


believe that it could have happened, that nobody senior at the


organisation would know about it, and even if it did, you said it was


a socialist conspiracy. And then you found out that your phone was


hacked, and suddenly you were upset. I was totally upset. Somebody paid


you to write an article, so you got a bit more upset. I do not get paid


to write articles in the Spectator. If I had to do that, I would be in


the gutter. But what about the broader point? Are do not know what


it is exactly. The broader point is that there was a problem within one


newspaper, and, did they pay a price for all of that? That


newspaper does not exist today. Actually, I am amazed that that


paper does not exist. I was shocked when it was shut down. When did you


decide that Rupert Murdoch's tabloids were beneath contempt? Was


it when the Sun endorsed Labour in three subsequent elections, or when


it endorsed Cameron in 2009? first started raising questions


about the payment of police officers by the News Of The World


and by the Sun on 11th March 2003. I can remember because it was my


dad's birthday. You never spoke about the tabloids like this when


they were backing Labour. I did, I'm afraid. In these words? I did


not talk about the hacking, -- I did not know about the hacking, but


I raised the issue of Murdoch's domination, having so many of the


newspapers, as well as the broadcasters. Can they be a force


for good? Yes, of course they can, and sometimes they have been. When?


There have been lots of campaigns which have been run by tabloid


journalists. We should not forget that a lot of this is coming out


now because of the investigative journalism done by a guy at The


Guardian. Not a tabloid. No, but I do not care whether a newspaper is


a tabloid, I am not a snob. Entertaining newspapers are great.


So, what's the problem? Because all I want journalism to do is to


return to its old fashioned thing of bringing the truth to light, but


doing it within the law, and not running headlines about


Hillsborough which were a complete and utter lies. This has got


nothing to do with Hillsborough. is, it is about lying. How do you


know? How do you know, you printed a newspaper. That story came from


Liverpool news agency and Liverpool journalists. Every single newspaper


carried that story, as you well know. Carry on. You ran a newspaper


which said that people had done these things. Both of you, be quiet,


you have done the Hillsborough., the viewers will make up their own


minds. I have a broader question - do you have any regrets or remorse


about some of the things you did as a tabloid editor? Probably, yes, I


do. Would that include Hillsborough? If I could revisit


Hillsborough, I would do it in a different way, I would do with the


way the other newspapers did it, I wish I had done that, yes. What do


you think will come out of this, what will be the end game, after


Leveson and so on? It must not muzzle the press. I know people


will say politicians want the press to be muzzled, I do not want that.


I want the press to be vibrant and sometimes use colourful language


and the rest of it, and be interested in the wrong doings of


politicians, I have no problem with that. But I think everybody needs a


little bit of privacy, just to be able to survive, we all need our


own personal space. And one thing which some tabloids have got wrong


is that things have changed since 50 years ago, and sometimes, some


tabloids have maintained an attitude of a kind of judgmental


attitude from the 1950s. Just time to pick a winner from yesterday's


Guess the Year competition. The answer was 1969, the great battle


between Robert Maxwell and Rupert Murdoch for the News Of The World.


Rupert Murdoch got it because they thought he was more British than


Robert Maxwell. You get to pick the winner. I have not got my glasses.


Oh, it is Simon from Liverpool. Just joking. That's all we have got


time for today. I have got 40 quid. I'm also back tonight with This


Week. And I will be back tomorrow for another day politics. You just


can't get enough of it. We will have Tim Montgomerie, the famous


Tory blogger on, and comedian Andi Osho, who will tell us why she's


not happy about the money being spent on the Olympics. And we have


had lots of e-mails about Hillsborough, I will be sending


Download Subtitles