30/01/2012 Daily Politics


30/01/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. The Prime Minister

:00:40.:00:43.

is back in Brussels for the first time since wielding to the Dell

:00:43.:00:47.

last month, but has his stance on the deal agreed by the rest of the

:00:47.:00:52.

EU softened? RBS boss Stephen Hester forgoes his �1 million bonus,

:00:52.:00:58.

but he and other bosses could still be in line for millions more. When

:00:58.:01:02.

our Conservative Home Secretary announced a 20% cut to police, she

:01:02.:01:07.

got a stony reception from officers, so will they be won over by the

:01:07.:01:10.

compromise announced today? And could last summer's riots have been

:01:10.:01:15.

prevented if parents felt free to smack their children? The Labour MP

:01:15.:01:21.

for Tottenham thinks CO, so should the law be changed? -- thinks so.

:01:21.:01:25.

All that in the next 60 minutes, and with me today is for Mark

:01:25.:01:28.

policy wonk Matthew Taylor, who is now chief executive of the Royal

:01:28.:01:32.

Society for the encouragement of Arts, manufactures and Commerce,

:01:32.:01:37.

the RSA. First this morning, Home Secretary Theresa May has announced

:01:37.:01:41.

plans for reform of police forces in England and Wales. The original

:01:41.:01:45.

proposals were to have saved �1 billion, but after a backlash from

:01:46.:01:49.

police officers, the Government has gone with a compromise deal.

:01:49.:01:52.

Theresa May also announced plans to give communities tougher powers to

:01:52.:01:56.

tackle antisocial behaviour. This is what she had to say earlier.

:01:56.:02:02.

Since the 1970s, pays systems and the private and wider public sector

:02:02.:02:06.

have changed to recognise and reward specialist skills. The most

:02:07.:02:10.

productive employees are paid more, incentives are used to improve

:02:10.:02:16.

performance. But in the police that does not happen enough. Skills,

:02:16.:02:20.

performance and successful crime- fighting are not rewarded. Time-

:02:20.:02:24.

servers still determines how well most police officers are paid. --

:02:24.:02:29.

Times served. I do not think that is right. I am joined by the

:02:29.:02:32.

chairman of the Police Federation, which represents police officers.

:02:32.:02:37.

Thank you for joining us today. pleasure. We heard from Theresa May

:02:37.:02:41.

about reform of how police are paid, and she said that some would be

:02:41.:02:44.

disappointed. Bearing that in mind, when you accept what she is

:02:44.:02:49.

proposing? We respect the fact she has honoured the police arbitration

:02:50.:02:53.

tribunal, but there is still �160 million being taken out of police

:02:53.:02:59.

officers' pockets, and when you put this alongside the pay freeze and

:02:59.:03:02.

other pay that has been taken out of our pockets, it is not the most

:03:02.:03:06.

attractive situation. Whatever Theresa May says about police

:03:06.:03:10.

reform, the bottom line here is that the police budget has been cut

:03:10.:03:15.

by up to one third, 30% is the amount we are losing from our

:03:15.:03:17.

budget with inflationary considerations over the next four

:03:17.:03:22.

years. This is part of it. You feel you have been harder hit than other

:03:22.:03:28.

public sectors. We accept what she is proposing? We are bound by the

:03:28.:03:31.

arbitration decision anyway, and we said that when it was announced,

:03:31.:03:34.

but we are disappointed that we are going through a process which has

:03:34.:03:37.

taken even more money out of our pay than elsewhere in the public

:03:37.:03:40.

sector. There is a schizophrenia about some of the things she said

:03:40.:03:44.

today. She said it is a choice between having our pace oppressed

:03:44.:03:49.

and reduced, or losing jobs, and yet in the last year alone we have

:03:49.:03:53.

lost 7,000 jobs across the country, and that is in the first year of

:03:53.:03:56.

cuts that will go on for another three and a half years. Not all

:03:56.:04:00.

officers would lose pay. What she is saying is that there would be a

:04:00.:04:03.

restructuring, to provide incentives for officers with

:04:03.:04:07.

special skills, those working antisocial hours and poor people to

:04:07.:04:10.

have incentives on the front line. Those who do not do those things

:04:10.:04:15.

will be paid last. That sounds a fairer division of the money.

:04:15.:04:18.

if police officers have autonomy of what they do and where they work,

:04:18.:04:22.

and as most people in the public will know, we do not have complete

:04:22.:04:26.

control over the job we perform within the service. We joined the

:04:26.:04:29.

service and are directed to where we work, and so some officers will

:04:29.:04:33.

find themselves being moved from one post which is given one level

:04:33.:04:36.

of pay and then moved to another post where they are finding a

:04:36.:04:40.

reduction through no fault of their own. We think that is unfair and

:04:40.:04:44.

does not recognise the realities of policing in Britain today.

:04:44.:04:48.

question there is, if you take on board some of the reforms, you were

:04:48.:04:53.

never going to support pay cuts for your offices, where you? As I said,

:04:53.:04:58.

we are already facing what are, in effect, a cuts of the next few

:04:58.:05:03.

years. We accept that, and we are one of the few parts of the public

:05:03.:05:07.

sector has accepted that there needs to be cuts, up to 12%, we

:05:07.:05:11.

said, but we are seeing cuts that go way beyond that, and it is not

:05:11.:05:16.

good for the police service, as we heard the chief constables say over

:05:16.:05:19.

the weekend. He said his forces facing a cliff edge, and it is not

:05:20.:05:23.

good for the public either. It is putting public safety at risk,

:05:23.:05:27.

these massive cuts. But you do accept the force has to be

:05:27.:05:31.

modernised. Theresa May said it had not been reforms in the 1970s.

:05:31.:05:36.

is not true, we have been through pay reforms of the last decade, and

:05:36.:05:38.

some of the revisions that have been proposed in the Winsor Report

:05:38.:05:42.

are actually old-fashioned provisions, not modernisation of

:05:42.:05:45.

police pay at all. It is actually setting officers against officers.

:05:45.:05:50.

It is also going to have rode the trust in police officers as well.

:05:50.:05:53.

Police officers, if they're going to be paid for performance, there

:05:53.:05:56.

will be a suspicion that if they are stopped by the police, that

:05:56.:06:00.

they are being reported not because they feel they should be, but

:06:00.:06:03.

because the officer might get a bonus. That cannot be a good thing

:06:03.:06:09.

in policing. It is something we should not have. Matthew Taylor,

:06:09.:06:13.

people and said the police is the one and reformed public service. Do

:06:13.:06:19.

you agree with that? Absolutely. It was a running joke when I worked at

:06:19.:06:24.

Number Ten, I would always churned up, what about the great unreformed

:06:24.:06:27.

public service, the police? Everyone else would look at me as

:06:27.:06:30.

if I was off my head because of the problems politically about being

:06:30.:06:34.

seen to take on the police. So actually acting the coalition are

:06:34.:06:37.

right to be trying to reform the police, and everything we are

:06:37.:06:40.

discussing now is about the new economic circumstances of austerity,

:06:40.:06:44.

and I think the police may have been able to fight as hard a few

:06:44.:06:48.

years ago, but now, just like the chief executive of RBS, we are

:06:48.:06:51.

recognising we are in a different climate. If you look as though you

:06:51.:06:54.

are unwilling to be inflexible and the face of the pain everyone is

:06:54.:06:59.

suffering, you lose legitimacy. There is an irony that at the time

:06:59.:07:02.

when conditions were no more benign, you argue it would have been hard

:07:02.:07:06.

at... No question in my mind that one of the failings of New Labour

:07:06.:07:10.

in government was that it did not take on the police. It was too

:07:10.:07:14.

frightened, and that is because if you are left of centre, you feel

:07:14.:07:19.

more vulnerable in terms of being tough on crime, yes. The emergence

:07:20.:07:23.

of a German plan to send an EU official to Athens to oversee Greek

:07:23.:07:27.

budget plans has highlighted the deep divisions that remain in

:07:27.:07:30.

Europe over how to deal with their huge national debt. The Greeks have

:07:30.:07:34.

rejected the idea, and they are still big questions about how

:07:34.:07:37.

Greece and other stricken countries are going to resolve the problems.

:07:37.:07:42.

A summer of EU leaders takes place today in Brussels. -- Summit. Once

:07:42.:07:45.

again, they will be concentrating on the eurozone crisis and the

:07:45.:07:49.

search for economic growth. They will also focus on bespoke union,

:07:49.:07:54.

new deficit and debt rules for the single currency. Most member states

:07:54.:07:58.

are expected to sign up to a new budget treaty, but not the UK. Back

:07:58.:08:02.

in December, David Cameron shocked the rest of the EU by opting out of

:08:02.:08:07.

negotiations for a fiscal pact. At the time, he highlighted the legal

:08:07.:08:10.

difficulties of countries that signed the pact using EU

:08:10.:08:14.

institutions like the European Court of Justice. But it is now

:08:14.:08:19.

reported that he will allow the ECJ to oversee any agreement. Yesterday

:08:19.:08:21.

the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, made clear he

:08:22.:08:28.

thought the veto was still in place. The Prime Minister vetoed, use of

:08:28.:08:31.

the institutions, and he said that was because he had no guarantees

:08:31.:08:34.

that what they were proposing would not damage the single market or,

:08:34.:08:37.

for that matter, would cause problems to the financial sector.

:08:37.:08:40.

We do not know what they are coming forward with yet, they have not

:08:40.:08:44.

completed their treaty and are not anywhere near signing it. We do not

:08:44.:08:49.

know everyone will go down that road with them. If with us now is

:08:49.:08:52.

the Conservative MP Douglas Carswell and Liberal Democrat per

:08:52.:08:57.

year Lord Oakeshott. Welcome to the programme. Hearing his position

:08:57.:09:01.

there, is it in your understanding that David Cameron has decided he

:09:01.:09:04.

is not going to block the institutions being used to

:09:04.:09:08.

implement this new fiscal union? gather that is the case. I hoped to

:09:08.:09:12.

be able to come on air and say this was something frightfully clever,

:09:12.:09:15.

us going along with the idea that the other 26 members should form a

:09:15.:09:19.

fiscal union, take the institutions with them, but I'm afraid to say

:09:19.:09:21.

that the more I hear about the small print, the more it is

:09:21.:09:25.

beginning to look as if it is back to business as usual, ministers and

:09:25.:09:30.

mandarins making decisions. I think it underlines why it is vital now

:09:30.:09:34.

that we have a referendum and let the people decide. I thought the

:09:34.:09:37.

whole idea was that it would be a way of protecting Britain's

:09:37.:09:41.

interests, otherwise what was the point of the veto? Indeed, I had

:09:41.:09:48.

hoped to be able to say that there was a point,... Bad luck! If you

:09:48.:09:51.

study the small print, it looks as if, I'm afraid to say, when you

:09:51.:09:56.

leave it to ministers and mandarins, this is what happens, and it is

:09:56.:09:59.

back to business as usual, deal- making in a backroom, the British

:09:59.:10:03.

people treated with contempt. that why a Liberal Democrat has

:10:03.:10:06.

gone on this trip to assist David Cameron? I thought you might find

:10:06.:10:11.

it helpful because Iain Duncan Smith was not speaking for the

:10:11.:10:13.

government yesterday, but I thought it might be helpful to check with

:10:13.:10:18.

Number Ten. I like to be helpful where I can! That is very good of

:10:18.:10:23.

you, Lord Oakeshott! I was told I was free to say that IDS was not in

:10:23.:10:26.

line with the position and that is separate from the Prime Minister in

:10:26.:10:30.

that view. I thought you would like to have that. Isn't that a rather

:10:30.:10:35.

complicated way of handling European relations? Indeed, but

:10:35.:10:44.

Iain Duncan Smith is a total and European. -- anti-European. I'm

:10:44.:10:47.

pleased to say that David Cameron is starting to rein him in. I have

:10:47.:10:50.

been watching what has been happening in Europe with great

:10:50.:10:55.

interest for a long time, and we see these wrangles, and even I find

:10:55.:10:59.

it too complicated. This shows why, at the end of the day, we need to

:10:59.:11:03.

put this to the people in a straightforward referendum. What

:11:03.:11:06.

should David Cameron actually do at this meeting? The last time he was

:11:06.:11:11.

there, he walked out, and we now have people like ourselves

:11:11.:11:14.

understanding something different to the Government's position.

:11:14.:11:17.

should make it absolutely clear that the fiscal union will be

:11:17.:11:20.

entirely separate from the European Union, and that if the rest of

:11:20.:11:26.

Europe wants to spin off and joined it, great, too not involve us.

:11:26.:11:31.

get a turn?! What we have seen here, and I feel sorry for Douglas

:11:31.:11:35.

Carswell, who is a principled and two European, I feel we have seen

:11:35.:11:39.

what a disastrous miscalculation it was by David Cameron to do that the

:11:39.:11:44.

dough. -- anti-European. But it was popular. It ended up in a real mess.

:11:44.:11:51.

What really matters now is that we do not block sensible measures that

:11:51.:11:55.

are going on with the Europeans and the euro, where there is a real

:11:55.:12:00.

crisis of jobs and the economy, and we should not have a dog in a

:12:00.:12:05.

manger attitude. What about measures that are taken that affect

:12:05.:12:08.

the single market, which we will now not be able to do anything

:12:08.:12:12.

about? That is one of the big dangers, and we should be improving

:12:13.:12:16.

the single market and getting free trade going again. A decade ago, we

:12:16.:12:20.

had another Prime Minister from another party promising we would

:12:20.:12:23.

have... I think they called at the Lisbon agenda, to make the most

:12:23.:12:27.

competitive part of the global economy by 2010. How did that work

:12:27.:12:31.

out? We are hearing the same rhetoric. I do not think these

:12:31.:12:34.

mutual suicide pact of the European fiscal union is in our interests,

:12:34.:12:39.

Cameron should keep us out. We are still, two years on, talking about

:12:40.:12:43.

Greece and what to do about this country which, you know, could

:12:43.:12:47.

default in a couple of months' time. Is it not feasible now to be

:12:47.:12:50.

supportive of any bail-out plan when Greece has no chance for

:12:50.:12:54.

growth? That is a separate issue where we would probably agree. I

:12:54.:12:57.

have been saying for months and months, on this programme and to

:12:57.:13:01.

anyone who would listen, that Greece has got to leave the euro,

:13:01.:13:06.

has not to devalue. There is no way out for Greece. They went in at the

:13:06.:13:09.

wrong exchange rate with figures could buy Goldman Sachs, and it is

:13:09.:13:16.

not doing anyone any favours to pretend they can. Any senior

:13:16.:13:19.

economists will tell you that Greece will have to devalue.

:13:19.:13:23.

that is not happening at the moment. It is not the main point of what is

:13:23.:13:27.

happening. Mathematics will drive against political delusion. Greece

:13:27.:13:30.

will not stay in. The British government should get behind the

:13:30.:13:34.

idea of defaulting on this unsustainable debt and the coupling

:13:34.:13:38.

of the rope. Until they do that, our closest trading partners will

:13:39.:13:42.

never return to prosperity. Withdrawal by stealth? We are

:13:42.:13:47.

talking about kicking Greece out. Just generally in terms of the

:13:47.:13:51.

position Douglas Carswell speaks about. It is not our decision, but

:13:51.:13:55.

that is what the eurozone should do. This grand Cartesian design that

:13:55.:13:57.

means that experts and technocrats have arranged the lives of millions

:13:57.:14:04.

of Europeans has not worked out. Matthew Taylor, time to bale out?

:14:04.:14:07.

The European politicians are doing the very best they can to handle

:14:07.:14:11.

this problem that was not created solely by the European Union. It is

:14:11.:14:14.

part of a bigger set of global issues. They have got massive

:14:14.:14:17.

problems with deficit in America, which has nothing to do with the

:14:17.:14:21.

European Union. I think what is interesting, apart from the idea of

:14:21.:14:25.

Number Ten encouraging people to breathe against members of the

:14:25.:14:31.

Cabinet, that didn't even happen in my time! This isn't even briefing,

:14:31.:14:34.

it is putting Iain Duncan Smith back in his box, which I'm happy to

:14:34.:14:39.

help with. It was inevitable that David Cameron was going to have to

:14:39.:14:42.

go back into Europe and adopt a more combative attitude, absolutely

:14:42.:14:46.

inevitable, because these are huge issues that affect our economy, and

:14:46.:14:50.

the idea of standing aloof in order to satisfy the appetite of people

:14:50.:14:55.

like Douglas Carswell or Iain Duncan Smith... Well, the voters!

:14:55.:15:00.

For, to be honest, the voters at a point at which we need our great

:15:00.:15:04.

minds to be resolving the issues in Europe. The idea that UK separate

:15:04.:15:13.

It looked good in December and there was support, but now,

:15:13.:15:17.

listening to Matthew Taylor... was gesture politics. The lesson to

:15:17.:15:24.

draw is that the pro-European position is discredited. It is now

:15:24.:15:28.

trust -- time to trust the people than in or out referendum. I see in

:15:28.:15:31.

the Financial Times today that you are going on about all of these

:15:32.:15:37.

people in Britain. He was a Tory Cabinet minister in Mrs Thatcher's

:15:37.:15:44.

government. He's not a raving pinko. Briefly on the IMF, George Osborne

:15:44.:15:49.

seems to have softened his stance. Do you get that feeling, in terms

:15:49.:15:53.

of increasing Britain's contribution? I read different

:15:53.:15:56.

briefs, given to different newspapers. If we are going to use

:15:56.:16:00.

the IMF to do what it should do, to create new currencies to allow

:16:00.:16:06.

Greece and others to quit the euro, I will happily vote for it. Lord

:16:06.:16:09.

Oakeshott, Douglas Carswell, thank you very much.

:16:09.:16:12.

The images of youngsters running a mock during the summer riots was

:16:12.:16:16.

blamed by some politicians and commentators on poor parenting. But

:16:16.:16:19.

could the politicians themselves be making life more difficult for

:16:19.:16:24.

parents? A law passed in 2004 made it illegal for parents to smack

:16:24.:16:28.

their children if it resulted in reddening of the skin. Tottenham MP

:16:28.:16:31.

David Lammy said that the law makes it difficult for parents to

:16:31.:16:36.

effectively punish their children. Is he right? Carol Walker is in the

:16:36.:16:40.

Central Lobby with two MPs. David Lammy, a former schools minister,

:16:40.:16:44.

has provoked quite a controversy by his comments suggesting that it was

:16:44.:16:48.

a bit unfair for many of the parents in his constituency to be

:16:48.:16:50.

told that they should not be smacking their children, many of

:16:51.:16:54.

them felt that they would have their children perhaps taken away

:16:54.:16:59.

by social workers if they did so. He feels that perhaps different

:16:59.:17:04.

standards apply to middle-class parents. I'm joined by two MPs with

:17:04.:17:09.

different views, Kevin Barron for Labour and Harriet Baldwin for the

:17:09.:17:13.

Conservatives. Can I start with you, do you think that David Lammy has a

:17:13.:17:17.

point? I think there is an issue about parents worrying about having

:17:17.:17:21.

their children taken away by social workers. But if we ban smacking

:17:21.:17:26.

altogether, like most of Europe, only four countries have not, they

:17:26.:17:31.

would never reach the level of people protecting their child

:17:31.:17:35.

against an open fire or running on to a road, they would never be any

:17:35.:17:40.

reason to take children away or any form of prosecution. Harriet, does

:17:40.:17:45.

he have a point? I think we need to send out a message that for loving

:17:45.:17:49.

parents bringing up their children, there might be occasions when

:17:49.:17:52.

smacking is an appropriate part of loving parental discipline. I

:17:52.:17:56.

certainly think that the last thing you want your child answering back

:17:56.:18:01.

and saying is, if you do that to me, I will take you to social services.

:18:01.:18:06.

It's very difficult for the law to define loving discipline and

:18:06.:18:10.

somebody that is going over the top. Do we not need a clear distinction,

:18:10.:18:15.

as we have in law at the moment? think there is a clear distinction

:18:15.:18:18.

in law at the moment. I think everyone would recognise the kind

:18:18.:18:23.

of examples that Kevin is talking about. Your child runs into traffic,

:18:23.:18:27.

they are very small, you bring them back in and you might give them a

:18:27.:18:34.

short smack. As a parent, I have never smacked a child. But I think

:18:34.:18:38.

it is a deterrent and you can warn your child that you can smack them

:18:39.:18:42.

as well. If that were made illegal, I think that warning would not have

:18:42.:18:47.

the same force. David Lammy seemed to be suggesting that this type of

:18:47.:18:51.

attitude was at the root of the problems of indiscipline that may

:18:51.:18:56.

have led to the riots. Does he have a point? I just don't see that what

:18:56.:19:02.

happened in the riots... It was illegal, these were law-breakers.

:19:02.:19:07.

Were they perhaps kids that had not had discipline at home? One talk

:19:07.:19:11.

about discipline at home, we don't have corporal punishment in schools

:19:11.:19:16.

now. When I went to school, they did. I got caned more than once

:19:16.:19:20.

when I was at school. It didn't stop it. You know, it wasn't that

:19:20.:19:24.

long ago when it was quite legal for people in this country to hit

:19:24.:19:28.

their wives or servants. That has been stopped as well. I don't see

:19:28.:19:31.

why children should not have the same protection in law as adults.

:19:31.:19:37.

Of course, if an adult is going to do something dangerous, perhaps

:19:37.:19:41.

with special needs, it would be right for you to stop them doing

:19:41.:19:44.

that and you would be supported in the law. Reasonable chastisement,

:19:44.:19:49.

nobody knows what it means, but you can still do that. Children should

:19:49.:19:53.

have the same protection as you all right. I think there are wider

:19:53.:19:58.

issues around discipline and some of the measures in the Education

:19:58.:20:03.

Act. It was around giving headteachers the powers to expel

:20:03.:20:07.

pupils without being overwritten. I think we need to work on that

:20:08.:20:12.

responsibility, the discipline boundaries for our children. Adult

:20:12.:20:17.

male role models are often important as well. Do you think

:20:17.:20:21.

David Lammy has a point with this class point, that a lot of the

:20:22.:20:24.

parents of Tuffers dates are worried about social workers moving

:20:24.:20:30.

in, whereas middle-class parents are allowed to carry on giving six

:20:30.:20:35.

of the best? I'd like to put money on that the kids involved in the

:20:35.:20:39.

riots, about one in five of them under the age of 18 had been

:20:39.:20:43.

smacked in their lives. I don't think it's got these things. We

:20:43.:20:46.

shouldn't look excuses for law- breakers. Bringing up kids probably,

:20:46.:20:53.

that is what you do. That is it for now.

:20:53.:20:58.

On that issue, there were those that said it was a typical new

:20:58.:21:02.

Labour initiative, was it? The use of force against children to punish

:21:02.:21:06.

them has been banned in most parts of Europe. In a way, Britain was

:21:06.:21:12.

catching up. I think it is a sense of Micro Management of people's

:21:12.:21:17.

lives that people associated with New Labour. The point David Lammy

:21:17.:21:21.

is making is not saying that because children were not smacked

:21:21.:21:26.

they went and rioted, he's saying that parents feel confused and they

:21:26.:21:28.

feel their authority is on the line because they are not sure what they

:21:28.:21:32.

are allowed to do. This debate isn't really clearing it up. I

:21:32.:21:36.

still think that the principle, that is that we should protect

:21:36.:21:39.

children the same that we should protect anybody else from being

:21:39.:21:43.

subject to physical violence, I think it is important. So the law

:21:43.:21:48.

should not be relaxed, as David Lammy is suggesting? No, and it is

:21:48.:21:53.

not clear how much you relax at full support level of violence? You

:21:53.:21:57.

can restrain a child, a quick smack is probably not going to get you

:21:57.:22:00.

into trouble. But it you are smacking until you leave a mark,

:22:01.:22:08.

which lasts, that is probably undue violence. Now, how the corporate

:22:08.:22:10.

world behaves itself is very topical at the moment. It has

:22:10.:22:14.

become something of an obsession for politicians. Caring capitalism

:22:14.:22:20.

is in, greed is out. A report by Matty Taylor's RSA argues that big

:22:20.:22:24.

companies have a key role to play in the life of the communities they

:22:24.:22:27.

operate in. But is it the business of business to go around doing

:22:27.:22:31.

good? The B&Q store in Sutton. It is

:22:31.:22:35.

where to come if you are doing up a house. Here, they are trying to

:22:35.:22:39.

pull a makeover of capitalism. B&Q have worked with the Royal Society

:22:39.:22:44.

of Arts on a report that insists that big business has a vital role

:22:44.:22:47.

to play in building strong communities. That is right on trend.

:22:47.:22:51.

All of the main parties say that capitalism has to be about people

:22:51.:22:54.

as well as profits. The report is not due out for a couple of weeks

:22:54.:22:58.

but we have had a sneak preview. The report says that businesses

:22:58.:23:01.

should actively planned to make life better for communities they

:23:01.:23:05.

operate in. They can set aside part of the store as a meeting-place for

:23:05.:23:09.

local people. Government can help fund schemes where firms work to

:23:09.:23:13.

boost the local economy and become what is known as community hopes.

:23:13.:23:20.

That might sound a bit happy Class B. But what is in it for B&Q?

:23:20.:23:25.

customers feel they are dealing with a company they can trust that

:23:25.:23:29.

makes a positive contribution, they will reward it by shopping mall. We

:23:29.:23:33.

have evidence in centres where we have training centres that

:23:33.:23:36.

customers come back more often, they do more project and end up

:23:36.:23:39.

spending more money. There is a hard business benefit to it, as

:23:39.:23:43.

well as being a good neighbour. of which is great. But is it the

:23:43.:23:47.

best way for business to do good? The corporate responsibility

:23:47.:23:51.

movement has put a huge tax on customers. In order to prove their

:23:51.:23:55.

social responsibility credentials, companies have to set up big

:23:55.:24:01.

departments. They naturally want to make themselves even bigger. They

:24:01.:24:05.

turn to lobbyists and so on. Everybody in lobbying has an

:24:05.:24:08.

interest in building it up yet again. You end up with a huge

:24:08.:24:12.

bureaucracy, paid for out of company funds. That means higher

:24:12.:24:17.

prices for you and me. Funnily enough, B&Q's corporate

:24:17.:24:21.

responsibility man did not approve of that analysis. What about the

:24:21.:24:25.

idea that it is clever marketing rather than an image to do good?

:24:25.:24:30.

think it is marketing and PR to an extent. But encouraging local

:24:30.:24:33.

people to shop there is actually something which is pretty laudable.

:24:33.:24:40.

It isn't -- but isn't changing the world a job for politicians? Eight

:24:40.:24:43.

job of businesses to do good business and serve their customers.

:24:43.:24:46.

If you can do civic good as part of that package, it is entirely

:24:46.:24:50.

correct for business to do. I don't think it is solely the preserve of

:24:50.:24:54.

government to do that. Business, community groups and individuals

:24:55.:24:58.

have their parts to play. It's important that businesses should be

:24:58.:25:02.

out there making money for owners, shareholders, including pension

:25:02.:25:06.

funds and other people's investments. If they are making

:25:06.:25:11.

good profits, paying high taxation, then we can have the debate about

:25:11.:25:14.

six. Rather than trying to make business people do something that

:25:14.:25:18.

they are not in a position to do. It seems these days that greed is

:25:18.:25:22.

not good. You want big business to make a profit, but we also wanted

:25:22.:25:27.

with a human face. But can we really have it all? Thank you for

:25:27.:25:36.

shopping at B&Q... We are joined by the Guardian's Zoe

:25:36.:25:39.

Williams and Matthew Taylor from the RSA. Picking up the point made

:25:39.:25:43.

in the film, should and does this is just concentrate on making money,

:25:43.:25:46.

bringing prices down and doing what they are supposed to do? This is

:25:47.:25:52.

just a gimmick? Part of what we buy is a brand. We buy what the brand

:25:52.:25:57.

represents to us. If companies engage with communities in

:25:57.:26:01.

effective ways, if they employ local people that support other

:26:01.:26:05.

local businesses, it contributes to the value that we have on that band.

:26:05.:26:10.

It is in their interests to do good stuff in the community. Is it good

:26:10.:26:13.

business to create a whole department that deals with it?

:26:13.:26:20.

Somebody that his head of corporate responsibility? This is a myth. B&Q

:26:20.:26:24.

array community store. Strengthening their relationship is

:26:24.:26:27.

what their managers in all of their shops do. They don't need a

:26:27.:26:31.

separate department. Isn't that what we want them to do? I don't

:26:31.:26:35.

buy that we are paying in taxes for a corporate responsibility

:26:35.:26:39.

department. You cannot talk about purchasing stuff as taxation on the

:26:39.:26:43.

consumer. I am suspicious about the line that employing local people is

:26:43.:26:48.

a service to them. All businesses employ people near them. That is

:26:48.:26:53.

because it is good business. Often, decisions that companies make,

:26:53.:26:58.

which are beneficial and profitable, are then dressed up as Big Society

:26:58.:27:01.

initiatives. That is absurd and it also skews things as though they

:27:01.:27:07.

are doing the community a favour. I don't think B&Q are doing them a

:27:07.:27:12.

favour if they employ people nearby. I don't think companies are doing

:27:12.:27:16.

people a favour when eight take people on as a work experienced

:27:16.:27:20.

workers when they are not paying them. Across society, because of

:27:20.:27:23.

austerity, we are in a position that the kind of things we want for

:27:23.:27:26.

the world are not going to happen through public spending. The

:27:26.:27:31.

economy is not growing. We need to squeeze more, with less. What we

:27:31.:27:35.

have found is that stores are community pubs, where people come

:27:35.:27:42.

together. That is not something that has been exploited. They found

:27:42.:27:47.

that people didn't know much about DIY, so they started putting on DIY

:27:47.:27:51.

classes. This increases people's skills and they buy more from B&Q.

:27:51.:27:56.

It is tapping into latent capacity. I am not against DIY classes. That

:27:56.:28:02.

would be good for me. Sainsbury's were asking their staff to identify

:28:02.:28:05.

people they thought might be carers because of their buying patterns

:28:05.:28:09.

and then give them leaflets to say, if you are a carer, this is

:28:10.:28:13.

information for you. It is facilitating. Is there anything

:28:13.:28:18.

wrong with it? You have to wonder if all transactions in society have

:28:18.:28:21.

to be tied into financial transactions. B&Q is watching the

:28:21.:28:27.

fact that people talk to each other in the B&Q, and then a pass to

:28:27.:28:32.

become financial. If it cannot be, it has to be turned into marketing.

:28:32.:28:38.

It is being turned into a value proposition. Saying, we are B&Q, we

:28:38.:28:42.

are a big value proposition. I think it is cynical. We would argue

:28:42.:28:47.

that companies would want to say they are doing well for society and

:28:47.:28:52.

are also making money, rather than saying we are going to screw as

:28:52.:28:57.

much out of society as we can. Marks & Spencer his heart out reach

:28:57.:29:00.

programmes with ex criminals. That is valuable, because the state

:29:00.:29:06.

cannot do that. In a way, they are filling a gap in the market?

:29:06.:29:10.

state would never give you DIY lessons. But they might have an

:29:10.:29:16.

outreach programme. Is it different to what is being proposed at B&Q?

:29:16.:29:19.

People come into schools and give up their time voluntarily, isn't

:29:19.:29:25.

that more valuable? That is an interesting point. At what point is

:29:25.:29:28.

it distinguished between someone doing something valuable in a

:29:28.:29:32.

school, and a company annexing parts of a public school for

:29:32.:29:37.

advertising? There is a gap. If you can persuade stores to help fill it,

:29:37.:29:40.

through apprenticeships or through opening up premises to community

:29:40.:29:45.

groups, through financial people, that has to be a good thing. Nobody

:29:45.:29:49.

says it's all sorts of the problems in the world. But it seems a more

:29:49.:29:54.

modern idea of what capitalism should be. Zoe's point about an

:29:54.:29:58.

extension of marketing, it is not going to be totally altruistic.

:29:58.:30:02.

They will have all of their logos and... At the Griffi. Companies can

:30:02.:30:07.

make different appeals. They can say, drinking our product, it will

:30:07.:30:11.

get you very drunk and it is cheap, or they can say, work with us

:30:11.:30:14.

because we get back to the community. It should probably be

:30:14.:30:24.
:30:24.:30:26.

There is a busy week in the store, and to better to look ahead than

:30:26.:30:30.

Anushka Asthana and Quentin Letts? Thank you both for joining us.

:30:30.:30:35.

Quentin Letts, starting with you, just on RBS and Stephen has a's

:30:35.:30:40.

bonus, has this been difficult? Huge relief now for David Cameron,

:30:40.:30:44.

but has Ed Miliband has a bounce? And the jazz been difficult for

:30:44.:30:53.

Cameron, yes, very awkward, so I think he will be very pleased that

:30:53.:30:56.

he has leaked of the cliff and done the decent thing. The real story is

:30:56.:31:00.

that Parliament is exerting a sense of moral shame. Very interesting, a

:31:00.:31:04.

sign of a resurgent house of Commons partly, what is going on,

:31:04.:31:07.

but for Ed Miliband to be doing all of that, I love the hypocrisy of

:31:08.:31:11.

this because it was the government where he was part of the Cabinet

:31:11.:31:14.

that arranged this deal in the first place. But hey, he is an

:31:14.:31:19.

opposition now, so we can say what he wants! Cameron has mishandled it

:31:19.:31:23.

quite badly, so he will be relieved that Hester is not going to take

:31:23.:31:28.

this bonus. Anushka Asthana, a good weekend for Ed Miliband, is it good

:31:28.:31:32.

enough? It certainly is a coup for Ed Miliband, some people are saying

:31:32.:31:37.

it is the best hit that he has had so far, because the decision to

:31:37.:31:39.

drop the bonus clearly came straight after Labour said they

:31:39.:31:43.

would raise this in Parliament. I do not know whether they are going

:31:43.:31:47.

to continue threatening to have debates every time we here are

:31:47.:31:49.

their large bonus, but it will be interesting to see whether that

:31:49.:31:56.

happens. Isn't that the point? What happens with other RBS executives?

:31:56.:32:00.

It is still a big political problem. I think it is a problem, although

:32:00.:32:03.

perhaps people will look at this and say, I do not want to be

:32:03.:32:06.

vilified. I think Stephen Hester said that as one of the reasons for

:32:06.:32:10.

not taking it, and we all saw what happened to Fred Goodwin before him.

:32:10.:32:15.

But they will think harder before they go there in future. Looking at

:32:15.:32:19.

Europe, we have been talking about David Cameron's position in Europe,

:32:19.:32:23.

and it seems he will allow the institutions to be used in fiscal

:32:23.:32:29.

union, a big U-turn? Not quite, but certainly a turn of sorts. Is

:32:29.:32:33.

looking in his mirror, I think. The Conservative backbenchers will not

:32:33.:32:36.

be happy about this, but they do not have any immediate opportunity

:32:36.:32:40.

to have a go at him in the House of Commons. It may not be a problem

:32:40.:32:43.

this week, although at PMQs there might be a bit of it. There is

:32:43.:32:49.

certainly a hint that the greater the dough which we all went

:32:49.:32:55.

palliative, except the BBC, maybe it was not such a telling point. --

:32:55.:33:00.

Hallelujah. As Douglas Carswell said, what was the point? What was

:33:00.:33:06.

the point indeed? As far as you are concerned, what do you think David

:33:06.:33:08.

Cameron needs to do now as far as the position in Europe is

:33:08.:33:12.

concerned? There is this thing with Europe which is you go in all guns

:33:12.:33:16.

blazing, this is the position you want to take, but the reality it's

:33:16.:33:21.

when you're sitting around a table with the leaders of other countries.

:33:21.:33:25.

-- reality hits. David Cameron must be feeling rather isolated. If he

:33:25.:33:28.

were to go ahead and block the use of certain institutions from every

:33:28.:33:32.

other country, I think he would become a bit of a pariah, and he

:33:32.:33:36.

knows that. If I do not think that matters. If you are isolated in

:33:36.:33:41.

Europe, it is great on the domestic scene, so he will be quite happy

:33:41.:33:47.

about that. The story will be about Greece and their debt problems.

:33:47.:33:50.

That will be much bigger in Europe than the story of Cameron.

:33:50.:33:55.

return briefly to the lesser story of the coalition at David Cameron,

:33:55.:33:58.

what about relations between the Labour Democrats and Conservatives

:33:58.:34:03.

over Europe? It has been creaking quite a lot, but you get the

:34:03.:34:06.

impression the Tories have been giving Clegg one or two nice little

:34:06.:34:11.

things to do, his announcement on aspirations for the tax policy, you

:34:11.:34:14.

got the impression that Cameron was trying to boost to make it. There

:34:14.:34:19.

has been a little bit of rebuilding going on. The Tory backbenchers

:34:19.:34:22.

will not be pleased about that either, but Carmen is ahead in the

:34:22.:34:27.

opinion polls possibly, he has got a bit of political capital, and he

:34:27.:34:31.

seems to be spending it. -- Cameron. In terms of policing, do you feel

:34:31.:34:35.

that Theresa May has been under pressure in terms of giving the

:34:35.:34:39.

impression that the coalition is still strong on crime? I think that

:34:39.:34:43.

one of the most effective members of the opposition front bench has

:34:43.:34:45.

been Yvette Cooper on the issue of policing, and they knew that this

:34:45.:34:49.

was an issue that was really going to hit the Government hard. Every

:34:49.:34:53.

time they have bought out things about police cuts, Theresa May has

:34:53.:34:57.

been under pressure to take action on that front. Has she done enough,

:34:57.:35:01.

Quentin Letts? She might have done. I'm not sure that Yvette Cooper has

:35:01.:35:06.

done too brilliantly, she is all right, but she is very much helped

:35:06.:35:10.

by the coppers, there are very protective of their own patch, and

:35:10.:35:14.

they have been militants against Theresa May. Today's announcement,

:35:14.:35:18.

I would not put much by. It is only about some pilot ideas, and I think

:35:18.:35:23.

it is probably being dressed up a bit much. Thank you very much.

:35:24.:35:27.

Now, you can almost hear the sighs of relief across government last

:35:27.:35:32.

night as the TV executive of RBS decided that he would not after all

:35:32.:35:37.

take the million pounds in shares he was awarded this here. As the

:35:37.:35:40.

chief executive of RBS, his bonus was always going to be a subject

:35:40.:35:45.

for public scrutiny, and that most public sector workers facing a pay

:35:45.:35:48.

freeze and the RBS share price falling 37% in the last 12 months,

:35:48.:35:51.

any payout was going to be controversial. Originally it was

:35:51.:35:56.

reported they wanted to give Stephen Hester shares worth about

:35:56.:35:59.

�1.6 million. That figure was reduced to just under �1 million

:35:59.:36:03.

when the announcement was made last Thursday. Supposedly that was after

:36:03.:36:06.

intervention from the government. But pressure for him to give up the

:36:06.:36:10.

bonus mounted, and Labour said they would call for a vote in the House

:36:10.:36:13.

of Commons. He was apparently worried that he had become a pariah,

:36:13.:36:17.

so he is going away empty-handed, apart from his �1.2 million salary,

:36:18.:36:21.

of course. But there are reports that investment bankers at RBS are

:36:21.:36:25.

still in line for a total of �500 million, and even Stephen Hester

:36:25.:36:28.

could end up with a further award under a separate long-term

:36:28.:36:32.

incentive plan. Is this the end of the row, or will the issue run and

:36:32.:36:38.

run? I have been joined by three MPs for the rest of the programme,

:36:38.:36:44.

Amber Rudd, Fiona O'Donnell and Gordon Birtwistle. Also here to

:36:44.:36:49.

talk about the bonus, in case the three MPs agree, is Allister Heath,

:36:49.:36:54.

the editor of City AM. I am sure they will all gang up on you.

:36:55.:36:59.

don't mind! Thank you to Matthew Taylor, a previous guest. There is

:36:59.:37:03.

consensus this was the right thing to do. Which means I do not

:37:03.:37:06.

understand why the government agreed to this in the first place,

:37:06.:37:08.

they should have blocked it out right. We are in a weird situation

:37:09.:37:13.

where people are saying, yes, this is your bonus but do not take it.

:37:13.:37:16.

If the government did not want him to take a bonus, they should have

:37:16.:37:20.

blocked it as a majority shareholder. They said there was a

:37:20.:37:23.

risk that the board would walk, that Stephen Hester would go, they

:37:23.:37:27.

felt that was better. Is that a myth? I think it is a perfectly

:37:27.:37:30.

plausible explanation and a good reason to give him the bonus, but

:37:30.:37:33.

in that case they should have defended it. They were trying to

:37:33.:37:38.

have their cake and eat it. They would give in it but they did not

:37:38.:37:40.

believe he should take it. I do not think they cover themselves with

:37:40.:37:46.

glory, but nobody has. Labour, when a nationalised the Bank, called

:37:46.:37:50.

Hester in to rescue the bank and told him that it would be run like

:37:50.:37:53.

a commercial organisation with private sector pay and so on. Now

:37:54.:37:58.

everybody is making a U-turn honest and say, look, it should not be run

:37:58.:38:01.

like a private company, it should be run like a social enterprise,

:38:01.:38:05.

lending more at doing this sort of stuff. And people should be paid

:38:05.:38:10.

like in the public sector. Like a social enterprise, is that really

:38:10.:38:14.

the case? Aren't the measures for success the share price, lending an

:38:14.:38:17.

up to small businesses? That must at being part of the job spec. Lot

:38:17.:38:22.

of people have lost their jobs at RBS. By those measures, the City

:38:22.:38:26.

may said he has done a good job, but in those terms he has not.

:38:26.:38:30.

the share price issue, that is unfair, because you need to look at

:38:30.:38:35.

that over a longer period of time. It is too short term to look at a

:38:35.:38:38.

one-year share price. In terms of lending, that was not in his

:38:38.:38:42.

original job description. That was a late a policy change. I think

:38:42.:38:47.

this whole thing is a giant mess, and to be the only issue that

:38:47.:38:50.

matters is how taxpayers will get their money back, how people who

:38:50.:38:53.

are put billions of pounds into their RBS going to get their money

:38:53.:39:00.

back. Don't you help or hinder that? I suspect it will hinder it.

:39:00.:39:04.

That will be hopeless, if that happens. He is quite right in

:39:04.:39:09.

saying that his bank owes the UK taxpayer something in the region of

:39:09.:39:12.

�50 billion. I think the most urgent thing that Hester needs to

:39:12.:39:16.

do is get the bank to a position where the share price matches what

:39:16.:39:20.

we are owed and we can sell it back to the private sector and get the

:39:20.:39:23.

taxpayers' money back to and vested in what goes on. Until that happens,

:39:23.:39:28.

he should never get a bonus? I am not saying that at all. The

:39:28.:39:32.

directors decide whether he has a bonus. They decided he should get

:39:32.:39:36.

one. Yes, indeed. If David Cameron wants to sack all the directors and

:39:36.:39:41.

replace them with directors that will do what David Cameron says,

:39:41.:39:46.

then he could do that, but it would create chaos within the bank and

:39:46.:39:50.

the sector. To me, the most important thing is to get our money

:39:50.:39:57.

back. �50 billion is that there. He needs to get it back. But isn't the

:39:57.:40:00.

biggest problem actually that the action that the government was

:40:00.:40:04.

prepared to take could never match the rhetoric that they have been

:40:04.:40:08.

spouting over the past year or so? They never intended to block it in

:40:08.:40:10.

that sense. They should never have given the impression that they

:40:10.:40:15.

could or would. There was an inconsistency in a way that he was

:40:15.:40:18.

treated and the way he was appointed. In 2008, he was brought

:40:18.:40:21.

in, remember he had nothing to do with the bank that was failed, he

:40:21.:40:24.

was brought in to put the band right, and it was agreed his

:40:24.:40:28.

contract and payments would be agreed by the board. So it was a

:40:28.:40:32.

myth to say that it was Labour who actually made up the contract, that

:40:32.:40:36.

he would get these awards, it was discretionary. Labour agreed the

:40:36.:40:40.

contract, which was that the board would agree it. What was not

:40:40.:40:45.

proposed was that there would be a public sector job with a fixed

:40:45.:40:51.

salary. That was not agree. It was treated as a proper bank, where the

:40:51.:40:56.

board would agree is pay. When the board agreed this pay, it was

:40:56.:41:01.

agreed it was way too much. What would have been acceptable to you?

:41:01.:41:04.

Well, I'm delighted that Steve has decided not to take the bonus, it

:41:04.:41:09.

is the right decision, and I think the government taking the position

:41:09.:41:13.

that the board has allocated the bonus but we hope he will not take

:41:13.:41:17.

it... That is a weak position, isn't it? They should have just

:41:17.:41:21.

blocked it. No, because then you have a situation where you might

:41:21.:41:24.

have the boardwalk out and Stephen Hester walking out. He is doing a

:41:24.:41:30.

good job... Then he should get the bonus! I want him to recognise that

:41:30.:41:33.

he is paid well, and even though he is entitled to the bonus because of

:41:34.:41:36.

the contract on the last government, he is not going to take it because

:41:36.:41:41.

he wants to complete the job at a lower pay. What about other bonuses

:41:41.:41:43.

at RBS? What should happen to people within the investment arm

:41:43.:41:48.

who are said to have big bonuses, bigger than Stephen Hester's?

:41:48.:41:52.

is a question for David Cameron. What is the Labour position on

:41:52.:41:57.

that? Can I reply to what am I said? There is a limit to how many

:41:57.:42:01.

things his government can blame on the previous government. The Prime

:42:01.:42:04.

Minister said on the 19th and January, when he was asked if he

:42:04.:42:09.

would block the �1 million bonus, he said the short answer is yes,

:42:09.:42:12.

and yet he did not take action in this case. He shrugged his

:42:12.:42:17.

shoulders. To some extent, we have had the Stephen Hester and, if you

:42:17.:42:21.

like, and is not taking the bonus, and Labour will try to take credit

:42:21.:42:28.

for that, rightly or wrongly. But what about other RBS executives?

:42:28.:42:33.

Should they also forgo their bonuses? Well, George Osborne, when

:42:33.:42:37.

he presented the Merlin projects to Parliament, he said that one of the

:42:37.:42:42.

tests would be lending to SMEs, and in the third quarter are plastic,

:42:42.:42:47.

are this did not meet that target. I think we need to listen to the

:42:47.:42:51.

public, and this has been the main mistake of the government, they're

:42:51.:42:54.

out of touch with public opinion. The next round is not going to be

:42:54.:42:57.

about RBS executives but the hundreds of investment bankers who

:42:57.:43:02.

are paid large salaries, and that is an issue. We cannot have a

:43:02.:43:05.

nationalised investment bank. Unfortunately, whatever decisions

:43:05.:43:08.

will be taken for political reasons, shutting down investment bank or

:43:08.:43:16.

selling it cheaply, it will hurt the taxpayer. For political reasons,

:43:16.:43:20.

not to maximise the amount of money paid back to the taxpayers, that is

:43:20.:43:25.

my big fear. The taxpayers will lose because of short-term politics.

:43:25.:43:29.

The taxpayer will not thank you if that is what happens. The taxpayer

:43:29.:43:33.

as an expectation that we see some Venice introduced into the system.

:43:33.:43:36.

The fact that these people are still in a job is because the

:43:36.:43:40.

public bail out the bank in the first place. Yes. What would help

:43:41.:43:45.

us if we had representation from the workforce perhaps.

:43:45.:43:48.

workforce in this context of people earning millions of pounds, because

:43:48.:43:52.

you are talking about ordinary traders and so on. I do not think

:43:52.:43:58.

RBS should have been bailed out. We are at a stage when politics, when

:43:58.:44:02.

it comes to try to extract value back, that is the real issue.

:44:02.:44:07.

you say to that, Gordon Birtwistle? Is it fair that Stephen Hester does

:44:07.:44:10.

not take his bonus but other members of the investment arm of

:44:10.:44:16.

RBS do? Is it fair that Barclays chief executive could get a bonus

:44:16.:44:20.

of up to �10 million? It is one of those words that is bandied about,

:44:20.:44:25.

fairness. Or of these people have contracts that if they do a certain

:44:25.:44:28.

thing, they get paid a set amount of money. Barclays is nothing to do

:44:28.:44:31.

with the government. But they benefited hugely from the measures

:44:31.:44:35.

that the government to have the time. Well, indeed, but the people

:44:35.:44:41.

in work for them have contracts, and they create wealth for the bank.

:44:41.:44:45.

Now, I agree with Vince Cable. They should be broken up, we should not

:44:45.:44:49.

have banks that are too big to fail. They should be broken up so that

:44:49.:44:54.

the people in the casino banking side go off on their own and stand

:44:54.:44:58.

by their own failures or successes. The banks that we are concerned

:44:58.:45:00.

about, high-street banks, the banks that deal with normal people in the

:45:00.:45:05.

street, they are the ones that we need to run properly. At the end of

:45:05.:45:10.

the day, we have got to get back our �50 billion that we are owed by

:45:11.:45:18.

Should Vince Cable have come out more strongly and said they are

:45:18.:45:22.

going to block the bonus? At the end of the day, the board of

:45:22.:45:25.

directors decide the bonus. could have made a statement?

:45:25.:45:29.

could have made a statement, it is no good making a statement that you

:45:29.:45:34.

cannot carry through. The whole board would have probably resigned.

:45:34.:45:38.

Stephen Hester would have resigned. Do you think he will walk anyway?

:45:38.:45:42.

think there is a good chance. The situation is unsustainable. There

:45:42.:45:46.

is no way he can be paid a bonus again, regardless of what has been

:45:46.:45:51.

agreed or what is in his contract. There will be a big row about the

:45:51.:45:58.

investment banking division. We would end up with civil servants

:45:58.:46:02.

running the RBS, and that would be a disaster for the taxpayer.

:46:02.:46:06.

agree, it would be a disaster. At the moment, it is the best possible

:46:06.:46:09.

world, he is not taking a bonus and he is staying on.

:46:10.:46:13.

The referendum on Scottish independence is not for two years,

:46:13.:46:16.

but battle lines are already taking shape. Ed Miliband entered the fray

:46:16.:46:20.

this morning, telling an audience in Glasgow that he is prepared to

:46:20.:46:24.

go toe-to-toe with Alex Salmond to argue the case for the survival of

:46:24.:46:29.

the United Kingdom. Here he is, speaking earlier. What is the most

:46:29.:46:35.

urgent task facing us? Putting up a boarder cross the A1 and the M74?

:46:35.:46:41.

Or the task of creating a more equal, fair and just society? I say,

:46:41.:46:45.

let's confront the real divide in Britain. Not between Scotland and

:46:45.:46:52.

the rest of the United Kingdom, but between the haves and have-nots.

:46:52.:46:57.

I'm joint from Inverness by John Finney. Welcome to the programme. A

:46:57.:47:01.

message that will chime with Scottish voters? It is very clear

:47:01.:47:06.

that Ed Miliband has no message for the Scottish voters. He is at an

:47:06.:47:10.

all-time low poll rating, and the Scottish people are not going to

:47:10.:47:14.

take lectures from a man whose party offered her as cuts deeper

:47:14.:47:19.

and more savage than Margaret Thatcher. We are in favour of

:47:19.:47:23.

social justice and we will work to achieve that, not just within

:47:23.:47:26.

Scotland but elsewhere. But lectures from the Labour leader? I

:47:26.:47:32.

don't pig so. The question, as proposed, it is designed to elicit

:47:32.:47:38.

a Yes? I would hope so, yes. Agreeing that Scotland should be

:47:38.:47:42.

independent, rather than saying independent or leaving the United

:47:42.:47:47.

Kingdom. Why did you say it as it is? The referendum will follow the

:47:47.:47:52.

highest terms of international law. I am sure it will, but could you

:47:52.:47:56.

answer the question? I am trying to answer the question. The reality is

:47:56.:48:00.

that the advice is that it is a clear and concise question. It is

:48:00.:48:03.

the question the Unionist parties have been asking us to ask. That is

:48:03.:48:08.

what we are going to do. Will the UK Electoral Commission have a veto

:48:08.:48:15.

over the question? Why would they? Alex Salmond has conceded that it

:48:15.:48:20.

will have a role in assessing the questions. Who will have the final

:48:20.:48:23.

say on the wording? I think the whole tone of the question suggests

:48:23.:48:29.

a misunderstanding about the situation. The Scottish people gave

:48:29.:48:34.

a clear indication in May of their wishes, with unprecedented support

:48:34.:48:38.

to my party. That is recognised by other parties in the parliament. We

:48:38.:48:42.

have a wholesale change whereby none of the parties in the Scottish

:48:42.:48:46.

Parliament accept that the status quo is acceptable. All of them what

:48:46.:48:50.

additional powers. The question will be outlined by the First

:48:50.:48:55.

Minister and it will subscribe to the highest possible terms of

:48:55.:48:58.

international electoral law. are saying the Electoral

:48:58.:49:02.

Commission's role in terms of wording is minimal? I have answered

:49:02.:49:06.

to say that there will be no issue with legality or indeed the merit

:49:06.:49:10.

of the question, which quite simply could not be more straight forward.

:49:10.:49:14.

The issue of devo-max is one that seems to be preying on people's

:49:14.:49:19.

minds. In terms of civic Scotland, as Alex Salmond has talked about,

:49:19.:49:24.

is that the only option in terms of getting a devo-max style question

:49:24.:49:28.

on to the ballot paper? It is a peculiar situation. The reality of

:49:28.:49:33.

the situation is that the Scottish government clearly is in favour of

:49:33.:49:36.

independence. There is a significant voice, and I have

:49:36.:49:40.

already alluded to the other parties wanting additional powers,

:49:40.:49:44.

that the somewhere between the status quo and full independence.

:49:44.:49:49.

We have a peculiar situation where the Unionist parties on one hand

:49:49.:49:54.

appear to be advocating that, but see no role for it in the

:49:54.:49:58.

referendum. The First Minister has said that we are nationalists, but

:49:58.:50:02.

also Democrats. He will listen and take great heed of what comes back

:50:02.:50:06.

as a result of the consultation process, which is ongoing. Thank

:50:06.:50:12.

you for joining us. Fiona, no lectures from Ed Miliband or Labour.

:50:12.:50:17.

That is because Labour took Scotland for granted and they

:50:17.:50:20.

deserve the lack of support they are getting? Ed really cannot win.

:50:21.:50:24.

On the one hand, the SNP say they want to move the debate on to

:50:24.:50:28.

substantive issues. When he goes up to do exactly that, to talk about

:50:28.:50:33.

the big challenges that we are facing in Scotland, then he is

:50:33.:50:37.

accused... The question I would like to have asked John Finney is

:50:37.:50:41.

why it wasn't devo-max in their manifesto, as a commitment to be

:50:41.:50:44.

part of the referendum? The only reason they are pushing the issue

:50:44.:50:48.

now is because they are worried they will not get the support.

:50:48.:50:52.

has been widely debated. Let's get back to the substance of the issue.

:50:52.:50:56.

Why is it and -- Ed Miliband talking about the substance of a

:50:56.:50:59.

natural social justice? Why not talk about the economic

:50:59.:51:05.

implications? Why doesn't he go on hard finances? I think that was the

:51:05.:51:08.

right thing for Ed to go on. The fact that we are politically

:51:09.:51:13.

different from Scotland, that we only elect one Tory member of

:51:13.:51:17.

parliament, there is more of a sense of egalitarian society in

:51:17.:51:22.

Scotland. These are the issues that Scottish people are concerned about.

:51:22.:51:27.

Do you think Labour has done enough in Scotland? In terms of...

:51:27.:51:34.

terms of its heartland. Clearly not, that was the message we were sent

:51:34.:51:39.

in the elections. We accept that lesson. Part of today is about

:51:39.:51:43.

seeing the real challenges and -- the challengers are best met with

:51:43.:51:49.

Scotland within the UK. They are better equipped than the

:51:49.:51:52.

Conservatives, who feel it is better to keep quiet in case

:51:52.:51:56.

anything else pushes them into the arms of Alex Salmond? We are not

:51:56.:52:01.

very good at keeping quiet. It is a great loss for us and Scotland that

:52:01.:52:04.

there is only one Conservative MP. But we do need to lead on the

:52:04.:52:11.

business of selling the union to Scotland. Ed Miliband's speech,

:52:11.:52:15.

historically around the likes of Clement Attlee, that put it into an

:52:15.:52:20.

historical perspective. I hope we can win the battle by selling

:52:20.:52:24.

Scotland to England, as well as England to Scotland. Your

:52:24.:52:29.

constituents, what they like Scotland to stay or go? I would say

:52:29.:52:34.

they have not thought about it. At the moment they are thinking about

:52:34.:52:37.

what the Government is doing and what goes on with the economy. We

:52:37.:52:42.

get lots of the males saying it is time for Scotland to go. I think

:52:42.:52:47.

that is exactly why Alex Salmond is making this such a long, drawn-out

:52:47.:52:51.

campaign. All of their politics are about division. He wants to create

:52:51.:52:57.

as many divisions as he can before autumn 2014. What do you think the

:52:57.:53:00.

Liberal Democrats should be doing? Having lost out in Scotland, they

:53:00.:53:07.

are in a very weak position. agree with Amber. We have to keep

:53:07.:53:11.

the union, I agree with that totally. I also think we should

:53:11.:53:15.

have this referendum sooner, rather than later. I think it is causing a

:53:15.:53:19.

lot of problems to people wanting to invest in Scotland. The critical

:53:19.:53:24.

thing to me is that it has to be a decisive election. It has to be yes

:53:24.:53:27.

or no, to throw other things on the ballot paper would confuse people.

:53:27.:53:33.

It is not acceptable. Who should lead the Unionist campaign? I think

:53:33.:53:37.

there is room for everybody. That is the difference. The nationalist

:53:37.:53:41.

campaign has a man Who Would Be King of Scotland, as he was seen in

:53:41.:53:45.

the papers this weekend. There are people from civic Scotland, all

:53:45.:53:55.

walks of life, the businesswoman throwing her hat in the ring, our

:53:55.:53:59.

politics are about building consensus. The SNP had never been

:53:59.:54:04.

good at working with others. Well, you have until 2014 to do it.

:54:04.:54:08.

needs to be before them. There is so much confusion in Scotland,

:54:08.:54:12.

firstly about the time being spent on it and also about what is going

:54:12.:54:16.

on the ballot paper. They cannot have es, no or something else like

:54:16.:54:21.

devo-max. I have to have yet honour, if they want devo-max they can

:54:21.:54:26.

negotiate with the British government. We all agree that the

:54:26.:54:29.

Scottish maybe should have more powers, but I don't agree with

:54:29.:54:32.

independents. The first in a series of films

:54:32.:54:40.

demystifying sometimes arcane and mystifying procedures in Parliament.

:54:40.:54:44.

This is where public broadcasting is at its finest, as my absent

:54:44.:54:54.
:54:54.:54:54.

partner likes to say. Let's start Adjournment debate. These are

:54:55.:55:00.

strange little to debates of sparse significance in law-making process,

:55:00.:55:03.

but they allow a parliamentarian to let off steam about an issue that

:55:03.:55:07.

he or she might feel strongly about, normally from a constituency point

:55:07.:55:12.

of view. Hospital closures, road repairs, local industry expansion

:55:12.:55:16.

or job losses. These are the sorts of things that MPs will choose to

:55:16.:55:20.

talk about in adjournment debates and get ministers to reply to. That

:55:20.:55:25.

is useful. The question is that the house does now a gym. Mr Steve

:55:25.:55:30.

Baker. Thank you, a huge pleasure this evening to address the future

:55:31.:55:36.

of the Royal British Legion hall. Seagulls are part of the fabric of

:55:36.:55:39.

seaside Britain. A historically, other than following the plough,

:55:39.:55:43.

they have kept themselves to the coast. In recent years they have

:55:44.:55:48.

moved inland. It is an issue that has brought together an

:55:48.:55:53.

extraordinary coalition of local residents and organisations, united

:55:53.:55:56.

in their concern to maintain pedestrian access through our

:55:56.:56:01.

station. Adjournment debates last half an hour and it happens at the

:56:01.:56:05.

end of every day's session in the House of Commons. You get an

:56:05.:56:09.

adjournment debate by putting your name into a lucky draw and sending

:56:09.:56:13.

it off to the Speaker's office, hoping for the best. Adjournment

:56:13.:56:17.

debates do not tend to draw much of a gate, to use the football term.

:56:17.:56:22.

But they forced right all -- Whitehall to come to a conclusion

:56:22.:56:27.

and tell the MP what it is. They also have the adjournment debates

:56:27.:56:30.

in a House of Lords, but they call them Questions For Short Debate.

:56:30.:56:34.

Dean House of Lords, they go on for an hour-and-a-half. They can't do

:56:34.:56:40.

anything for a short time. They may seem piffling, but they can lead to

:56:40.:56:45.

moments of history. May 1940, the war is going badly at the House of

:56:45.:56:48.

Commons adjourns of a motion concerning the prosecution of the

:56:48.:56:54.

war in Norway. As a result of the debate, the Government falls. All

:56:54.:57:02.

because of a little adjournment motion. Adjournment debates are a

:57:02.:57:06.

problem for ministers. All the more reason to like them. The ministers

:57:06.:57:10.

have to stay until the end of the parliamentary day. That any means

:57:10.:57:14.

about 10:30pm nowadays. In the old days it could mean waited until

:57:14.:57:18.

dawn. They also did a highly personal nature to the

:57:18.:57:23.

parliamentary day. An individual MP can wrap himself in a particular

:57:23.:57:28.

issue. That is great. Adjournment debates also provide a bit of

:57:28.:57:38.
:57:38.:57:38.

variety. And we all need that, Are they really worthwhile?

:57:38.:57:42.

Definitely. They are excellent tool for backbenchers to do. You can

:57:42.:57:45.

hold a Minister to account, get answers to your question. The first

:57:45.:57:50.

time I did what, I was surprised to find myself almost the only person

:57:50.:57:54.

in the chamber. That is not very encouraging! The minister or

:57:55.:57:57.

Secretary of State has to answer and you get a full 15 minutes of

:57:57.:58:02.

them having to answer. It is a pick before getting a real answer.

:58:02.:58:06.

Quentin Letts has to go back to 1940 to find one that had that much

:58:06.:58:11.

impact, it doesn't seem like they have much effect? It can for the

:58:11.:58:17.

people you represent. constituents, yes. I spoke about a

:58:17.:58:20.

case about disability living allowance, where I cannot get an

:58:20.:58:24.

answer from the DWP. It was a way to bring the minister to the

:58:24.:58:30.

chamber and get that answer. Just a consensus, it should stay? I add a

:58:30.:58:34.

new MP, and I agree. That is all for today. Thanks to our guests and

:58:34.:58:38.

all of those I forgot to thank during the programme. Our guest

:58:39.:58:42.

tomorrow is educationalist Toby Young. If you have anything to ask

:58:42.:58:49.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS