Browse content similar to 31/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Has David Cameron got | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
another fight looming over Europe? He's facing accusations from his | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
backbenchers that he's weakened his opposition to the new pact between | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
25 of the 27 European Union countries. He'll be explaining his | :00:55. | :01:03. | |
position to the Commons later this afternoon. | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
Vocational subjects will no longer be in the school tables. HMS | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
Dauntless is to head to the faubg - - Falklands. There has been rising | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
tension. We'll have the latest. Is beautiful always best? We'll look | :01:19. | :01:28. | |
at one campaign to make us eat ugly vegetables. All that in the next | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
hour. With me for the start, is Steve Potter, strategy director of | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
Bibby Line Group. Welcome to the programme. That is the firm, that | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
among other activities, operates Costcutter shops. We hope to be | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
joined by the journalist and founder of the West London Free | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
School, Toby Young, who is stuck in traffic. A familiar story. If you | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
:01:58. | :02:00. | ||
have questions, you can tweet us using the hash tag, askToby. | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
Starting with bankers' bonuses. Starting with Stephen Hester and Ed | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Miliband has been touring the TV studios this morning. We'll see | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
what he had to say. I hope the Government does use its share | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
holding in the Royal Bank of Scotland, which it hasn't done, to | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
have more restraint across the board. I fear what has happened is | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
the bonus merry-go-round across the industry is unchecked. That is why | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
we have called a vote next Tuesday on a tax on the bonuses, because | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
the taxpayer deserves to get money back. That's while this carries on. | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
That was Ed Miliband. Steve Potter, everyone's had their penny's worth, | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
do you think Stephen Hester should have kept his bonus or did he do | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
the right thing? In the circumstances he did the right | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
thing this time. He has come out of this smelling of roses. He's got | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
sympathy from the other bankers for probably being the worst-paid | :02:52. | :03:00. | |
banker in the City. Sympathy from the public, because he's taken a | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
moral stance. In reference to Ed Miliband's comments, I think it's | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
time now to get in front of the game rather than having a trial by | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
media every time the question comes up. Does that mean it should be it? | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
There shouldn't be a look at bonuses across the board, that we | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
need to look at the whole culture. Do you think Stephen Hester has | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
done the symbolic thing and we should move on? No, we should look | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
at them. Being taxed and bonuses being absolutely clearly | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
performance related. It's difficult to argue with those things, but I | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
just need to repeat that it's important to set those goals up | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
front and not get into the position we've been in of somebody having | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
been awarded a bonus on a package they thought they were being | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
recruited on and a trial by media to judge whether they are allowed | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
to keep that. What about in your company? What are they like? Does | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
everyone at senior level get one? Is it reward-related in the sense | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
of performance? Absolutely. There are no bonuses in our economy which | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
are not -- company which are not so and especially relating to | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
performance over the long term. They are long term, so not built in | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
as an extension of your salary so you come in and you are always | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
going to get a bonus, just a question of how much? Absolutely | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
not, no. Performance-related. they stopping at the moment? Have | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
you been rowing back or are people getting them? Given that as a | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
company we are performing really well you would expect everybody in | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
the company to be rewarded fairly. Well, it's one of those issues that | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
you think will go on and on. It will be interesting so see what | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
happens over the months, as we hear of other bonuses, although not | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
necessarily-state-owned bankers. It's time for the quiz. The | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
question for today is which of these qualifications is currently | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables? Is it A, a | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
fish husbandry, level-two certificate in nail technology, | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
horse care or a legal two award in travel and tourism. If you manage - | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
- if he manages to get here, Toby Young will give us the correct | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
answer. We will turn our eyes to Syria, because later today the Arab | :05:21. | :05:29. | |
League will ask the UN Security Council to back a resolution for | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
Bashar Al-Assad to transfer powers to his deputy. They say 5,000 | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
people have been killed by the regime over past ten months. | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
Western states, including Britain, are backing the resolution, but | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
Russia, which has a veto, has said it's not happy with the draft. | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
Barbara Plett is at the UN and joins us now. Isn't that the | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
problem, Russia will not sign up and so there won't be an agreement | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
on this? That's been the problem before. It's been the problem for | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
about ten months now, because the Security Council has been | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
deadlocked on this issue. When the opportunity came up with the Arab | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
League Britain and other western states thought oh, this may be the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
way to breakthrough this, because if the Arab League is coming to the | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
Security Council and asking for help, asking for support for a plan, | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
that it drew up on ending the crisis, it will be much more | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
difficult for Russia to continue to say no. That's why today the head | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
of the Arab League, as well as the Prime Minister are Qatar are coming | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
here to make their appeal in person and that's why Britain and other | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
states are sending their foreign ministers to back that up. That | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
might not be enough. That is true. If it isn't enough, where do they | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
go next? Well, I think if they are not able to pass this resolution in | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
front of the Security Council, the council options really are very | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
limited. I don't really see where they can go from here, because at | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
that point it becomes very different positions about what is | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
going on. It becomes an issue that you can't bridge with negotiation | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
and the basic difference, I think, is the fate of Bashar Al-Assad at | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
this point. The plan, the resolution, calls for a political | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
transition plan where he'll in effect hand power to the deputy to | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
oversee a national unit government. The Russians have said that sounds | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
like regime change and they don't want to give up support for Bashar | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Al-Assad, because he's a strong ally, but also because they feel | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
that if this plan is imposed on Syria, with the Syrians rejecting | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
it, it would cause more violence and cause the civil war to escalate. | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
That's a very fundamental difference. If they are not able to | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
bridge that with the resolution, it's difficult to see how to do it | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
another way. What is your feeling in terms of being able to persuade | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
the Russians? Is there a sense it's possible? I think there is a sense | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
that if it is possible it would be in this way - by having a strong | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
call from the region, because the Security Council puts stock in | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
regional requests. These are countries which neighbour Syria and | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
they've come up with the plan mostly by consensus. Only one | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
country, Lebanon, disassociated itself from it. Having said that, | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
the statements coming from Russia about draft have been negative and | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
they've said this is really unacceptable and they've accused | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
the Security Council of moving in the wrong detection, so it's | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
difficult to see whether -- direction, so it is difficult to | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
see if Russia can accept this. There is going to be every attempt | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
to try to make it abstain, not veto the resolution. In the meantime, | :08:36. | :08:44. | |
the violence has got so bad, that the Arab League has had to take out | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
its monitors? That's right. The nations are using the situation on | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
the ground are trying to add pressure. They are saying the | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
situation is deteriorating very badly. It can't afford to stay | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
silent any more. Having said that, if the resolution is passed I don't | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
think anyone is under any illusion that the violence with industry, -- | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
end, because the Security Council is not saying it will go in and try | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
to help to bring an end to the violence, but what the resolution | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
would do is put a lot of pressure on the government and in that | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
Syrians would be isolated because if Russia were not to veto, that | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
would be a message saying they were not supporting Syria in the way | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
they have been. That is really what the aim of the resolution is. | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
sort of attempt at military intervention by Arab armies, that | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
is very unlikely to happen, isn't it? Yes, I think that is very | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
unlikely. There had been a suggestion from the Prime Minister | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
of Qatar that some Arab peacekeepers be sent in, but nobody | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
took that up Any international intervention, people are very wary | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
about. I'm almost certain that wouldn't get through the Security | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
Council. There have been some suggestion that Turkey might, if | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
not send in troops, but create a buffer zone and carve out a safe | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
haven. Perhaps if the country descends into complete chaos that | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
may be an option, but if there is any military intervention it will | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
be very hard won and people are wary about intervening in Syria, | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
because of the delicate situation. Thank you. | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
Joining me now is the former Foreign Office minister, Mark | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Malloch-Brown and the chief co- ordinator of the Syrian network for | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
human rights. Welcome to the programme. We have been hearing | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
from Barbara about the fact it could be very difficult to persuade | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
Russia to sign up to any resolution and without that presumably the | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
violence just continues and Syria draws closer to civil war? Well, | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
basically that is true, because the people there cannot tolerate any | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
more humiliation and on the other hand, the Free Syrian Army stated | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
their job is to protect the peaceful demonstrations, but there | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
are other people who are tempted on a daily basis by that access of | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
violence that they have only one solution, to hold arms and join the | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
Free Syrian Army and I think this balance would be broken very | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
shortly if the international community does not accept step in | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
to protect those civilians. Stepping in, you mean intervene in | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
a military way, not just diplomatically? No, there is a | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
point in the middle, which is different from the Libyan scenario. | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
It is proposed in three steps. The first, which is the humanitarian | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
corridors, to help those indirect victims, who are the few of this | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
furious mood to give them food and medical supplies. The twoing second | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
things, the buffer zone and no-fly zone which Wylfa sill Tate to break | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
up the main body of the Army, which is still waiting for the right time | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
to defect and dessert the Army and join the Free Syrian Army. Mark | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
Malloch-Brown, the violence is getting worse and there was a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
terrible day yesterday. Just listening there, it doesn't sound | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
as if there is going to be a resolution. You are experienced. | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
Can Russia be pushed into this? think Russia's very, very worried | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
that it's the thin end of the wedge to a full intervention on regime | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
change and in that sense we are bearing the scars and price of lib | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
-- Libya. Obviously, the situation cannot continue and therefore, some | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
kind of compromise, which allows humanitarian safe havens and | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
corridors and their protection, but it absolutely has cast in stone | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
that it can't go further. That may ultimately be where we get to, | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
particularly if any troop involvement under the UN flag is of | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
Turks or Indonesians or malaisians or Bangladeshis, people - | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
Acceptable in that sense? Yes, so Turkey may or may not be as a | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
neighbour. I think the much more important point in a way is why has | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
:13:15. | :13:19. | ||
this regime held on for as long as it has? An Aliadiere Wyatt -- as an | :13:19. | :13:27. | |
alwit priority, we wonder why they are hanging on. While it is people | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
fighting for their freedom, somehow that stability card has kept him in | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
power. What we have to say to people is that Bashar Al-Assad is | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
the barrier to stability. He's no longer the key and switch the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
internal dynamic, but it's hard to do when everyone is fighting. We | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
need peace and dialogue as quickly as possible. That is not likely to | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
happen, is it? Taking the stability point, do you agree with that, that | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
there is a big body of public opinion that thinks that Bashar Al- | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Assad actually keeps stability to some extent, a modicum, rather than | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
letting the mob rule and run Syria? No, this is not true, because from | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
the observations we have on daily basis from the ground, you can look | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
at all the minorities in general are - for example, the Kurds, | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
yesterday, they lost two dead persons. They are a big minority. | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
All the other minorities are feeling now this regime is not | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
viable any more. They were in the past, but now they start to change. | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
Do you think now there could be a situation where he may go | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
relatively quickly, if that turn, as you described it, publicly in | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
Syria, is that it happening? If we can switch that diealic, it is | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
critical to him -- dynamic, it is critical to him going. The way to | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
consolidate that is to try to resource peace. So you put in | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
humanitarian corridors and put in a political dialogue. Will he let Dow | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
that though? The fact that -- let you do that though? It is critical | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
to get everyone on side, but if there's a plan here for a | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
transition and evolutionary process which secures security and | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
stability and whose end point is a government that represents all | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
Syrians, then we are beginning to see the outlines of how we might | :15:21. | :15:31. | |
:15:31. | :15:34. | ||
bet there, but it is actually Is it time to call on other groups | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
for some kind of ceasefire? I think this pitch needs to be directed to | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
the regime. I was saying, both sides. Well, the other side, they | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
are defectors from the army. They stated very clearly that the | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
responsibility is to protect civilians. If they are in a | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
defensive position, you cannot tell them, just leave your own people. | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
Today, 13 people have died under the rebels, in their houses, so | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
they cannot keep silent. So it is not practical? You are completely | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
right, it needs to be directed mainly at President Assad. He is | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
now the instigator of the primary violence. By point isn't that | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
everybody puts down their weapons and declares a ceasefire, there has | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
to be a political process to achieve that. I'm saying that the | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
Security Council and neighbours have to prioritise that. I think | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
that once the fighting stops, President Assad is finished. He is | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
only able to hold on in a situation of chaos, where he has the military | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
on his side and he can go on making this kind of argument. If we can | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
get to 8 and a half -- took a political argument, it is finished | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
for him. This regime is not viable without the iron grip on the | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
country, with the security forces and not just the military forces. | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
They are controlling the country, starting from the family and | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
spreading to the Haute Provence is. Do you think the international | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
response has been a adequate? they feel that they are confronting | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
Iran through Syria. They see Syria as the forefront of the Iranian | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
regime. They are afraid that they will create a bigger war in the | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
region. I think the best way is to approach that gradually, in a | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
different scenario, different from the Libyan one. So they try to | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
implement steps that can help the Syrians themselves to free | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
themselves by their own hands, without having this kind of | :17:40. | :17:49. | |
external interference. Why the international community does not | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
recognise the political body, the Syrian National Council, as the | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
main opposition, I don't know. They need to say that they recognise and | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
support them. That is what they did, to some extent, in Libya. Why is | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
that not happening? There is some contact with the Libyan -- Syrian | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
National Council now, we can move to beginning to recognise it. But | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
we need to unleash that kind of diplomatic campaign now. We are | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
both agreeing on the main point, that a fully fledged intervention, | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
of the Libyan kind, is really going to stir the flames. I agree that | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
Iran is a dangerous neighbourhood behind this regime, but it is even | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
more broadly that we have Hezbollah in Lebanon, it is a tinderbox and | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
it needs to be handled carefully. But none of the careful handling | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
can be an excuse for not getting to the endgame, which is a change of | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
leadership and regime in Syria. That has to happen. There is no way | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
back. OK, thank you very much. Now, from the Middle East to the | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
South Atlantic, where tensions have been increasing between Britain and | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
Argentina over the Falkland Islands. This morning we learned that the | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
Royal Navy is to send one of its newest warships to the area. At | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
Westminster, MPs have been debating the future of the disputed | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
territory. Ben Geoghegan is in central lobby. Yes, the Ministry of | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
Defence have been saying that this morning that the deployment of HMS | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
Dauntless is simply routine. But it does come at a time of rising | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
tension between Britain and Argentina, with Argentina at | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
demanding a renegotiation of sovereignty and setting up what the | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
Foreign Office have described today as an economic blockade against | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
Falklands island vessels in the region. Joining us is Guy Opperman, | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
the MP that organised today's debate, and also Lord West, the | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
commander of HMS ardent during the Falklands conflict. Before asking | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
about the debate, give us your assessment of how you read the | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
situation between Britain and Argentina. Where is this tension | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
going to lead us? There is certainly an economic blockade. It | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
was good in today's debate to see the entirety of the house | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
representing all aspects of the footprint -- different political | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
views, supporting the Falkland islanders and the Foreign Office, | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
who have worked very hard to ensure that the blockade is lifted so that | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
they can get on with the economic growth that has taken place. It is | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
a very strong Ireland, with very strong views on self-determination | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
and the way they should be going forward. A Lord West, we heard from | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
Jeremy Browne, the Foreign Office minister, saying that Argentina may | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
yet seek to intensify their pressure. Is that how you see it? | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
They may do, they may be doing some of this for internal regions. | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
to differ -- dangers? It is, if you get a splinter group of the | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
military, you sometimes think there was an opportunity and things can | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
happen. We have to be very robust in the way that we respond, which I | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
think the Government are doing. We have to be sure we get the defence | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
is right because there is no way we could recapture them as we could be | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
for, because we do not have the carrier aircraft. You agree with | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
what Sir Mike Jackson said at the weekend? Absolutely, I have said | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
it's a number of times. Is that a weakness that you think the | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
Government should not have allowed? I don't think they should have got | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
rid of Harrier jets, but the important thing is to make sure | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
that the islands are defender probably. It is a standing | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
commitment and inevitably, one of the Type 45 Destroyers will end up | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
there. What it does, because it is an amazing anti air warfare system, | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
if it is close to the island it can make sure that nothing can get to | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
the airfield very well. That is a step up. I'm sure the deployment is | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
routine, because we have so few of them, you have to use them | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
everywhere. In the debate today, you are calling for self- | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
determination to be written into law under the new White Paper that | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
the Government is bringing out. Why is that so important, when the | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
Government are making clear that there is no question about self- | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
determination for the people of the Falkland Islands? I welcome | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
completely that the Government are very supportive of the principle of | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
self-determination. I accept that it comes within United Nations | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
conventions. It would be a strong and reassuring decision by the | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Government in the White Paper if they were to say to all of the | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
overseas territories with a settled population, of which there are well | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
over a dozen, that those people, in a natural law of this country, it | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
is their self-determination principle that decides what will | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
happen to the islands. There has been a history down the years, in | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
relation to Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands in the 1960s, | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
where the Government of the day has not necessarily been as supportive | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
and has been in negotiations that the islanders were not aware of. | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
While I accept that this government is very robust and resolute in its | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
support, I want to try to ensure that it does not waver in future. | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Lord West, do you think there was a danger that it might waver? | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
Historically, if we look back, we were certainly wavering before 82. | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
I have to say, I rather support this. I was not aware it was going | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
on. I was delighted to see an article in The Or Observer, where | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
it showed that some of the entrants for the conflict, they had been | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
back and told their children, this place is not Argentine, they eat | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
fish and chips and they are very different. If that if Labour can | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
get over and it links in with self- determination, I think that would | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
be better than sabre-rattling and stupidity. The Argentinians are | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
friends, we want to trade with them and we would like a better | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
relationship. I believe the younger people of the Argentinian country | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
believe that. A good conciliatory note to end on. Thank you both very | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
much. What can be done to save the | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
British high street? In the last year, giants like mother where, -- | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
Mothercare, H&M Bay and Habitat have closed stores. The Government | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
have appointed Mary Portas to carry out a review. We sent our own regal | :24:26. | :24:36. | |
:24:36. | :24:37. | ||
reporter to survey the changing Most of us buy into the nostalgia | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
for the days when your high-street offered a butcher, hardware store | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
and Baker, separate shops, separate people, members of the community. | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
Not like today, with that parade of homogenised brands that seemingly | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
festoon the high street of any town. The story we are always sold is | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
that high street is dying, unable to deal with multiple competition | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
and full of boarded-up shops, unable to deal with the competition | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
of the supermarket, online shopping and the fact that customers just | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
don't have that much money any more. The only survivors being are those | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
that have radically changed their business plan. But is that actually | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
true? I think we have to remember that a lot of retailers were over- | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
represented on the high street. It is an extremely competitive market. | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
It is also very flat. For a lot of retailers, the only way to grow is | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
to steal a share from the competition. With that in mind, we | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
have to remember a lot of average retailers are out there. Over the | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
years, their brand has become muddled, they have been under too | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
much competition, whether from supermarkets or the internet, and, | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
as a result, when consumer spending becomes constrained, it is very | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
difficult to justify a place for these retailers. So, what we are | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
witnessing is pressure from the supermarket, internet and recession, | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
but it is commercial revolution, not high-street death. But that | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
does not make easy. It has to be acknowledged that if you are a | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Tesco type company and have an army of lawyers and planning experts, | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
you can cut through the system like a knife through butter. Small | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
independent shops cannot. There was a case for balancing the playing | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
field, partly through democracy and partly through direct intervention. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
We should be doing everything we can to create a mixed high street, | :26:29. | :26:38. | |
which is what people want. In its commercial jungle, does government? | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
At -- where the internet has a role, does government? Particularly early | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
when you look at interest rates for that high street, there are plenty | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
of things that the Government can do to help independent retailers. | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
The Government should at least create a two-tier system of | :26:53. | :27:01. | |
businesses, so we can encourage small and independent shops, the | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
ones that find themselves with their heads just above the surface, | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
that is something that can be done. That is something we should do. | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
joined now by the Conservative MP Jane Ellison, who wised -- used to | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
work for John Lewis. Just to pick up some of those points, isn't it a | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
case of survival of the fittest as far as shops on a high-speed car | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
concerned? Consumers make their choice, and some have to close? | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
are probably right. The reason we invested in Costcutter is that | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
shopping habits are changing and what people are looking for is | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
changing. We have an ageing population that don't necessarily | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
want to go to out-of-town superstores. People want to shop | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
little and often, which reflects the economic situation. Rising fuel | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
prices mean that people don't want to drive to do big shops. That is | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
one of the reasons why community shopping makes absolute sense. | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
are saying that high street should be doing well out of these | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
circumstances because more people are going there and go to out-of- | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
town shopping centres? To pick up at point, the danger is that we | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
look at the high street purely in the sense of retail. If they | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
continue to take that view, the high streets will die. We need to | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
take a wider perspective, thinking about town centres and local | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
community programmes to address things like infrastructure, | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
property and shops. Hospitals, you know, there is a whole wider | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
perspective which I think we need to look at. If they don't, do you | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
see, not the death of a high street, that sounds dramatic, the idea of | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
small independent shops not being able to survive? They will struggle, | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
yes. Jane Ellison, what can the Government do? The biggest problem | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
with businesses around me is the rates, the rent they have to pay on | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
the shop, that is why shops are closing. Is there anything that can | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
be done about that? Business rates and rents are two different issues. | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
I do want to say something about rent, because there was also a role | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
for landlords. I had the same experience as you. The Localism | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
Bill does give an opportunity, for the first time, full council to | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
have more control about what they do with business rates. Will that | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
bring them down? In some cases yes. But it is not just about councils | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
or governments. There is no one single answer to the problems the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
high-street phases. You are right to say there is evolution going on. | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
Lots of people have to play their part. There has been a huge | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
democratic disconnect between local councils and local shops. Retailers | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
and shops do not vote. Up until now, there has been no relationship | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
between food they pay their business rates to. I think | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
reconnecting that is a good thing. It gives councils some flexibility. | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
But there is more to it than that. Surely a thriving High Street is a | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
good thing for a local council? Absolutely, but until you change | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
the system and the way that rates are collected and retained, | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
councils didn't have a direct interest in that. They do want it | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
to thrive. But in and out of town centre, the council was able to put | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
a large number of jobs on that and can say something began significant. | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
It is more incremental with the high street. Should they cap the | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
growth of out-of-town shopping centres? I know that is one of the | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
recommendations. I think the Government is looking at that. They | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
promised a response since bring. you think they should? They need to | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
look at it, but there is a real danger of thinking that is the | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
answer. It could be part of the answer? Looking at it could be part | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
of the answer. At the end of the day, it is successful because | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
consumers go there. What the Government should not be trying to | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
do is make people do something they don't want to do. Equally, what was | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
said in a film about the level playing field, that is really | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
important and there is a huge role to play for everybody. Landlords as | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
well. I would like to make that point. One of the reasons out of | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
town centres thrive is that they often have a single landlord, with | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
a single vision of the mix of shops they are trying to achieve. We | :31:03. | :31:11. | |
Should the Government get involved? It sounds like the Government is | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
trying to take a back view in sense of allowing people to make their | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
own decisions, but if we want the high streets to jive, if that is | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
the aim -- to survive, if that is the aim, shouldn't they want them | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
to proceed? Absolutely. That is the way to go forward. The point about | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
out-of-town superstores and shopping malls being under one | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
property owner or landlord means they can take decisions and have a | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
long-term vision. Absolutely, for the long term. Whereas, in high | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
streets and town centres, you have a whole raft of different parties | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
and it's difficult to bring them together to have one vision that | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
can take it forward for the next few years. That is a real role for | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
local authorities and all local MPs and councillors and shopkeepers | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
themselves. There is a real opportunity there, what Mary Portas | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
called the town teams. Thank you both very much. | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
From crisis on the high street, to crisis in our primary schools. Up | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
and down the country there are a shortage of places. In fact, in | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
some towns local councils are considering turning empty shops | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
into classrooms. What is to be done? We are having lots of babies. | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
Mainly as a result of immigration and a birth rate that is just | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
generally going up. It means the number of extra school and nursery | :32:35. | :32:45. | |
places we'll need to find by 2020 is 720,000. But, there are about | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
444,000 spare ones across the country, so it's not that bad, | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
right? Well, it is, because the places aren't in the right places. | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
They know that here in Winchester, where the local authority needs to | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
find space for an extra 80 children a year for the next several years | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
to cope with the number of people coming here. It's been a great | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
place for older people, but we are finding lots of older -- younger | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
people have discovered Winchester is better than London and they are | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
moving in with young families, producing more children and | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
therefore more pressure on the schools. Maybe and we are not too | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
sure, maybe there is a drift away from the private sector, so that is | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
all adding to the figures and meaning we are having to look at | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
the upper range of estimates rather than the mid-range of estimates. | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
How they'll cope is the talk of the town. At this school, they are | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
going to concrete over a playing field to build temporary classrooms, | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
which is causing concern at the school gates. For us, that would be | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
a 50% increase in pupil numbers, without any further infrastructure, | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
no increased hall, no increase in staff facilities. We are already | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
under severe pressure, because the building is about 80% of the size | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
it should be for the number on roll. The department for education say | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
they are trying to help by spending extra money, up to �4 billion | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
targeted at particular problem areas. They also say their policy | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
of allowing parents to set up so- called free schools should make a | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
difference too. Although there's no guarantee that will help here in | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
Winchester. I had a look at the spread of free schools, for example, | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
and most are secondary schools. Most of them are in areas where | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
there is not a shortage of places, so there is no matching of need and | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
where the money's been ploughed. Another solution could be to lift | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
the limit on class sizes, currently 30. But that would need a change in | :34:41. | :34:48. | |
the law. It is even less popular with parents. With us now and for | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
the rest of the programme, he's made it, yes, we are joined by the | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
author and educationalist Toby Young, who has apparently walked | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
and cycled and hot footing is from around the corner, Labour MP Lisa | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
Nandy, who is on the Education Select Committee. We'll go straight | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
in there. Toby Young, why is there such a shortage? The reason is two | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
fold. First, we are in the middle of a huge population boom and | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
secondly, the Labour Government didn't spend enough money on | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
primary places. Primary places are funded through what is called | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
basic-need funding and Labour cut it by 26% between 04 and 0. Even | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
though the Office for National Statistics, in 2007, reported that | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
we were experiencing the biggest baby boom in England and Wales for | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
three decades, Labour still cut basic spending up to 2010, so we | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
are reaping the world wind. Lisa Nandy, even I knew we were planning | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
for this boom in schoolchildren. Why didn't Labour do anything about | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
it? We did, because one of the pressures on primary schools across | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
the country is the lack of physical space. When you look at the | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
shortage of primary school places, it's a particular London problem. | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
It exists in other areas, but it's a particular problem in London and | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
Labour brought forward a programme to build primary schools, rebuild | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
them, �7 billion programme. Building schools for the future? | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
this was the primary capital places programme and this was specifically | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
around briemary schools and that was scrapped by -- primary schools | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
and that was scrapped by the coalition when they came into | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
office. While Toby is right and there was a failure of local | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
authorities to plan in some areas, there is also a real pressure on | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
primary school building as well. There is an acceptance there that | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
the planning wasn't there and now we have too many children. Isn't it | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
enough to give local authorities, taking the space issue in hand, | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
just to allow good performing schools to have extra classes? Some | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
of the schools around where I live do that already. That would be the | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
easiest and simplest and fastest way to take on extra children? | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
happening around the country. If you look at how much the present | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
Government spend on basic need in 2011, it was 1.3 billion compared | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
to almost a third of that in the last year that Labour was in office, | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
but free schools can be a very cost effective way. Why? Aren't they | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
more expensive because you can't plan, so you don't have an idea of | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
how many people are going to be taken on. You don't know where they | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
are going to be. We have seen how ineffective the planning system is. | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
We are currently in the middle of this huge crisis, but the reason it | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
can be more effective is partly because it's much more cost | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
effective. The average cost to a local authority of building a new | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
primary was nearly �8 million under Labour. My group, the West London | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
Free School is setting up a primary, we hope, which will hope in | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
Hammersmith and Fulham in 2013 for around one million. Cost effective | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
says Toby. The problem with that is Michael Gove has been very clear | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
that the purpose behind free schools is to provide parents with | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
more choice, so if you set them up in addition to fill places that | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
don't already exist, then you don't provide parents with choice. That | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
is why he's very much focused on improving free school applications | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
so far in areas where there is no shortage of places. He wants good | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
schools to flourish and bad schools to wither and die, and they are his | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
words. He was asked that question if the House of Commons in October | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
when he announced the 79 new free schools that were approved and over | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
80% where in areas where there is acute basic need, so it's not just | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
true what you said. The first lot, 24 free schools, that opened their | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
doors, 15 were in areas where there were no needs for further places. | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
Just hold it there. Don't go anywhere. The Education Secretary | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
has had a busy morning. He's been giching evidence to the education | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
select committee -- giving evidence from the education select you | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
committee and some of the questions were -- Education Select Committee | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
and some were tweeted in from the public. Some questions are inspired | :39:14. | :39:23. | |
by the twitter feed. 5,000-plus wanting to interact with you. We'll | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
go around, each of us, and if you can give us quick answers, that | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
would be great. If good requires pupil performance to exceed the | :39:34. | :39:43. | |
national average and if all schools must be good, how is this possible? | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
By getting better all the time. Thank you. It is possible, is it? | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
It is possible to get better all the time. Were you better at | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
literacy than numeracy? I can't remember. Can you set out the chain | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
of responsibility in academies? depends who the sponsor is. What | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
evidence do you have to indicate that the pupil premium is working? | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
We are gathering evidence and as Alex pointed out, given that it's a | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
relatively new thing, we'll come back to the committee and present | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
all the evidence we have in due course. Why is there not the | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
flexibility to allow summer-born pre-term children to delay their | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
entry to school by a year? That requires a long answer. You can | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
have a little bit longer. We want children to be in school learning | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
as quickly as possible. I very much treasure the King James Bible my | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
gran gave me when I was six. Have you got the - the project you have | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
to have one in every school, have you got it funded and don't you | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
think it can speak for itself and it doesn't need a foreword from | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
you? Yes and yes. Why should there be fewer parent governors on an | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
eabg governing body? There should be fewer overall. Can I ask a | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
favour? You very kindly provided me with some water, will you excuse me | :41:13. | :41:22. | |
for one second and I'll come back and answer questions. I'll be back | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
in a minute. That's hilarious. I have never seen a minister get up | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
in a Select Committee and go to the toilet. By the way, you can't go | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
until after the end of the programme. I'm telling you that. | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
Enoch Powell's advice was don't go to the toilet beforehand on | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
Question Time because if you want to pee you'll do much better. | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
you think he's gone to look at the answers. I was relieved he came | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
back. I know about that. That was Michael Gove in front of the | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
Education Select Committee, where he was being asked questions from | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
the public. We are not ones to miss an opportunity to jump on the | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
bandwagon. We have been asking for questions for tobacco and Lisa,. -- | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
Toby and Lisa. Are you ready? Pencil or pen in your hand. This is | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
how much do you personally make out of the free school adventure or is | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
it pure altruism on your part? West London Free School is run by a | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
charity. None of us, none of the governors are paid everything. The | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
only money I've made out of becoming involved is by being | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
invited to appear on programmes like this. I haven't negotiated my | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
sum, but I'm hoping to get a mug. wouldn't hold out. This is the | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
negotiation for the mug. They've never given me a mug. I won't say | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
anything about that. If we give one to Toby we'll give one to you. Are | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
you for or against profit-making schools? This is the ideal from | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
countries like Sweden, give us your answer? I don't have a dogmatic | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
answer. I think the crucial thing is to use whichever providers can | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
deliver the best education and get the best value for money and in | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
Sweden the two largest commercial trends are the first and second | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
most successful providers of school. That sounds like you would be in | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
favour. Even though of course the coalition government said no to it. | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
They haven't said no to out- sourcing the operation of free | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
schools to full-profit companies or char ris. -- charities. You have | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
the option and it is very difficult because of the EU procurement rules. | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
We are not elected to get involved with that. I think every penny that | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
is made through running a school operation should go back into the | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
education for children. From Ronnie, is there anything that will | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
convince you that free schools were a bad idea in let's say in a few | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
years' time the exam results are down and any other research points | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
to it perhaps not having reached your high expectations, would that | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
make you question the whole ethos? I know you are not going to say | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
about bad results. One of the great beauties is that this enables | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
different groups to try out different things and in that way, | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
all these experiments and test beds we can find out what works and what | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
doesn't, discard what doesn't and duplicate what does. In that way | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
we'll drive up standards. You would go for good results. You would be | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
going for standard results? experiment that we are conducting | :44:24. | :44:31. | |
is trying to deliver a grammar school curriculum, just a core of | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
academic subjects complimented by art, music, drama and sport. We are | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
trying to deliver that to a genuinely mixed comprehensive group | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
of children and if we can succeed in getting better results I hope it | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
will be duplicated around the country. Lisa, if the standards and | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
results are impressive, will it make Labour look again at the idea | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
of backing and certainly supporting free schools? Yes. I think you get | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
good standards in every school. The other thing you have to look at is | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
what happens to those children not in that school, who may not be | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
subject today the same help and resources, but certainly if the | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
evidence bears out that free schools are a good thing, I think | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
that there is nobody who would say that school should be closed down. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
The difficulty you have is that Michael Gove has pushed through | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
both the free schools and the academies programme very quickly. | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
The bill in which it is based went through the Commons in just a | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
matter of weeks under the powers normally reserved for terrorist | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
legislation and the difficulty with this is the phrase that Toby used. | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
This is an experiment. It's with children's lives and where children | :45:37. | :45:45. | |
are concerned that is not good If a child has an alternative | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
between being stuck in a school that has failed generations of | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
children or going to one that was untested but might produce better | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
results, why wouldn't that be a word experiment? I don't think the | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
answer is necessary to set up a new school, it is to improve the | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
existing one. This is a tricky one, this came from Alex, are you and | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
Heston Blumenthal actually the same person? Have you got time for a | :46:12. | :46:20. | |
quick anecdote? I was standing in a pub and a girl came up to me and | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
asked if she could have a picture. Just as a joke I said, do you | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
realise I am not Heston Blumenthal? They said they weren't going to | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
bother with the picture. Are you going to last me the same question? | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
No. The question for the quiz was which of these qualifications is | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
currently worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables? | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
Is it a Level 2 Diploma in fish husbandry, nail technology, horse | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
care or travel and tourism? Travel and tourism. I'd quite like it to | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
the horse care. It is! You were wrong. You left out one of the | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
finer vocational qualifications introduced by Labour, a level two | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
BTEC in personal effectiveness. Which, amongst other things, has a | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
module in how to claim benefits. Not exactly aspirational! I think | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
financial skills should be taught. Are you saying that vocational | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
qualifications should not be at the level GCSEs? They should, but you | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
have to distinguish between the Mickey Mouse subject you have just | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
described, there were over 3000 vocational qualifications. The ones | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
that are recognised will be reduced to 125. The notion that | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
qualifications and things like hair and beauty, travel and tourism, | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
that they are as valuable as a GCSE in history, science, it is just | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
nonsense. Do you agree? Yes, but the question for Michael Gove is | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
why he isn't taking steps to equalise the status of academic and | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
vocational qualifications. Labour commissioned the Tomlinson report, | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
which recommended one diploma way you could do academic or vocational, | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
or a mix of both, and it would give them equal status. I wish we had | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
implemented that. Michael Gove has no solution to this disparity, | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
except for rubbishing qualifications which, to a lot of | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
young people across the country, mean an awful lot. | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
In December, David Cameron found himself in a minority of one when | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
he said 'non' to plans to a new European treaty setting fiscal | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
rules and harmonising budgets. It must have been a novelty to be | :48:35. | :48:42. | |
joined by the Czech President, Vaclav Klaus. But what is it that | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
Britain is staying out of? 27 members have signed up to the | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
fiscal compact. Come -- countries have to balance budgets or keep | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
structural deficits below 0.5% of GDP. Failure to meet the rule will | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
trigger an automatic correction mechanism and the possibility of | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
fines of up to 0.1% of GDP. Potentially, billions of euros. The | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
new pact will be enforced the existing EU institutions, despite | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
David Cameron saying only a few weeks ago that using them would be | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
wrong. The hope is that it will restore confidence in the future of | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
the eurozone and prevent another debt crisis. Whether it has the | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
desired effect remains to be seen. I am joined from Brussels by Martin | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
Callanan, the Conservative leader in the European Parliament. Do you | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
feel let down by David Cameron over this issue of blocking the use of | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
European Union institutions by the new group? No, I think the Prime | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
Minister was being pragmatic. He was faced with two fundamental | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
problems. The first one is that we are in a coalition with the Liberal | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
Democrats and, as we know, they are keen to sign up to virtually | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
everything that Europe produces. The second problem is that in order | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
to stop this he would have to take legal action. He would have to do | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
that through the European Court of Justice. He would have to ask the | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
Court of Justice to rule on whether it itself should have the power to | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
do this. It is complicated legally and it could take years. He is | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
reserving his position. If there are attempts to encroach on the | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
single market or anything that affects British interests in the | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
future, that is an option. Why was there so much cheering by Tory | :50:21. | :50:27. | |
backbenchers at the time that this was some great hurrah? That wasn't | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
the only subject of the veto. What he did, and has still done, has | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
prevented a whole new section of the treaty being established, which | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
would have the risk of caucusing, eurozone members voting together | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
within the eurozone institutions and run the risk of damaging | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
Britain's interests in the single market. This treaty is outside of | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
the EU structures completely. The veto was effective, in that respect. | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
In a sense, if you look back at some of the quotes, was there | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
anything explicit in what David Cameron said after the veto? That | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
he was actually going to say that those institutions are could be | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
used to enforce that fiscal deal? think there was a number of | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
statements that lead people to imply that was being said. | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
Ultimately, it was presented as a veto. There was no treaty on the | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
table at that stage. It was a political agreement. There was no | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
detail to be talked about. He made it very clear that he would not be | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
bound by it and Britain was not going to accept it. I would not | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
just assume it is only the Czechs that would be against this. Other | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
countries have problems with it. Sweden have said they will sign it | :51:37. | :51:44. | |
as low as they are not bound by any of the conditions within it. A | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
number of member states will have to have a referendum or approval in | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
Parliament. I think a list of countries that don't approve will | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
be greater by the time we get to ratification. The Liberal Democrats | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
were right, for practical reasons and on an issue of policy and | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
principle, it was the right thing to do? David Cameron's position now | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
is the right way to go? The Liberal Democrat position is usually that | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
whatever is put in front of Britain, we have to sign it because we have | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
to be seen as good Europeans. David Cameron took exactly the right | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
position. He was initially backed by Nick Clegg, it was a position | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
agreed in advance by him. It was only afterwards that he started | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
getting lobbying by his own backbenchers and changed his | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
position. David Cameron is standing up for the interests of the UK. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
He's taking a hard-headed, pragmatic decision about what is in | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
the UK interests. It's nice to have a Prime Minister like that, after | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
years of Labour role where they would also sign up to pretty much | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
anything. There has been a lot of debate | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
about what was expected from Euro- sceptics. That somehow when David | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
Cameron came back before Christmas, having vetoed signing up to this | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
treaty and then saying that he would not allow the new fiscal deal | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
to be using institutions of the European Union, that is what a | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
great success, this was David Cameron showing his strength. Who | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
misunderstood what? Did the Euro- sceptics get it wrong and try to | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
read more into it, or has David Cameron duped them? The reason | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
Euro-sceptics, and I count myself as one, were so delighted by David | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
Cameron using the veto, was because it signalled to our European | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
neighbours that we are not in favour of a shift away from what | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
the European Union is at the moment to a much more federalist situation, | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
a United States of Europe, if you like. I don't think that has | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
changed. The reason people like me are getting too worked up about | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
what happened yesterday is that there is a very good chance that | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
this trip he will never actually be ratified. It is due to decided its | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
present form in March. Even Sarkozy has said he will not sign it in | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
March because of the upcoming French presidential election. His | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
opponent might not either. Francois Hollande, who has a commanding lead | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
in the polls, in all likely the next President of France, he says | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
he wants to renegotiate it. There are problems in Sweden and | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
Czechoslovakia. It seems to me that it is unlikely this treaty will | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
ever be in force. Why get in an argument about the means in which | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
it would be enforced? If 25 of the 27 EU member states are in favour | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
of this dramatic sea-change towards a much more federalist United | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
States of Europe, that will bring forward the moment at which we | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
really need to decide whether we want to be part of the United | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
States of Europe or if we want to have a referendum. | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
Just time to explore the burning question of the day. Should we be | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
eating more ugly vegetables? You might scoff, but one MP is so angry | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
about the Maddox that it is challenged vegetables we throw away | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
that she wants to do something about it. In about that we will | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
talk to the lady in question. First, let's see what the public think. | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
What do you think this is? Something you smoke? Some vegetable | :55:03. | :55:11. | |
you cook? How I'd never seen it. don't know. A carrot? Parsnip, yes. | :55:11. | :55:19. | |
Not a parsnip. It is a vegetable. Potato? It's not! It is! It is a | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
beetroot. Beetroot? Yes. Would you buy a beetroot that looked like | :55:23. | :55:31. | |
that? No. I don't know. Would you buy one that looked like that? | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
not sure. Possibly not. I think I would, if I was going around and | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
knew what I was buying. Does it matter what food looks like to you? | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
It does help, I hate it covered in cellophane and everything. I like | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
it to look fresh. Does it matter to you that what a vegetable looks | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
like? Not really. After you have eaten it, it will not be much more | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
than that, when it? A parsnip will stop would you buy something that | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
looked like that? Maybe. It is too small for me. I prefer something | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
bigger. It doesn't matter to you that it doesn't look nice? | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
shape doesn't matter, just the size! De Laura Sandys is with us | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
now, as his cookery writer Stevie Parle. People just don't want to | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
eat ugly vegetables. I think they have been conditioned over many | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
years. I think ugly food must be eaten. But there is a bigger issue | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
about food prices rising. Over the next 20 years we are going to see a | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
50% increase in food prices. We waste about �50 a month, each | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
household. It cannot go on. There is really good food out there that | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
is being sent off to a fruit juice, processed food, which is delicious | :56:51. | :56:59. | |
to eat. Let's look at this tray. glorious selection! As a chef, do | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
you know what all of these are? course. We have a little test. What | :57:04. | :57:13. | |
is that? Beetroot. I cheated. I had to cut it open, just to see. Just | :57:13. | :57:19. | |
to check. That one? That is also a beetroot. You would use any of | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
these IND your cooking, but you're not serving them like that to the | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
customer? I don't think I would even mind serving them like that. | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
They are really quite beautiful. That is beautiful? Look at back- | :57:33. | :57:40. | |
pass dead. A It's all right! It's all right? I am glad that Lisa is | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
not here, this is what would be served in one of those profit- | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
making Swedish schools! I've got a feeling that these days eating this | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
kind of presentable vegetable is trendy. Farmers' markets, chefs, | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
it's so much of the market? Farmers' markets, foraging, I think | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
as a chef your priority is different. You're looking for taste. | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
You're looking for something that looks like you didn't buy it in the | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
supermarket. So, you are saying it is the fault of supermarkets? They | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
have everything looking the same? It's right through the supply chain. | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
Billions of pounds are wasted in food. We got to stop this. Value | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
food, food has been too cheap and now we have to value it in a | :58:30. | :58:37. | |
different way. We mustn't cut these beautiful, Oakley fruit and | :58:37. | :58:45. | |
vegetables out. You can have it. Are you feeling a bit hungry? | :58:45. | :58:49. |