31/01/2012 Daily Politics


31/01/2012

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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LineFromTo

Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Has David Cameron got

:00:43.:00:48.

another fight looming over Europe? He's facing accusations from his

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backbenchers that he's weakened his opposition to the new pact between

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25 of the 27 European Union countries. He'll be explaining his

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position to the Commons later this afternoon.

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Vocational subjects will no longer be in the school tables. HMS

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Dauntless is to head to the faubg - - Falklands. There has been rising

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tension. We'll have the latest. Is beautiful always best? We'll look

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at one campaign to make us eat ugly vegetables. All that in the next

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hour. With me for the start, is Steve Potter, strategy director of

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Bibby Line Group. Welcome to the programme. That is the firm, that

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among other activities, operates Costcutter shops. We hope to be

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joined by the journalist and founder of the West London Free

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School, Toby Young, who is stuck in traffic. A familiar story. If you

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:01:58.:02:00.

have questions, you can tweet us using the hash tag, askToby.

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Starting with bankers' bonuses. Starting with Stephen Hester and Ed

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Miliband has been touring the TV studios this morning. We'll see

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what he had to say. I hope the Government does use its share

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holding in the Royal Bank of Scotland, which it hasn't done, to

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have more restraint across the board. I fear what has happened is

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the bonus merry-go-round across the industry is unchecked. That is why

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we have called a vote next Tuesday on a tax on the bonuses, because

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the taxpayer deserves to get money back. That's while this carries on.

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That was Ed Miliband. Steve Potter, everyone's had their penny's worth,

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do you think Stephen Hester should have kept his bonus or did he do

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the right thing? In the circumstances he did the right

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thing this time. He has come out of this smelling of roses. He's got

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sympathy from the other bankers for probably being the worst-paid

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banker in the City. Sympathy from the public, because he's taken a

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moral stance. In reference to Ed Miliband's comments, I think it's

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time now to get in front of the game rather than having a trial by

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media every time the question comes up. Does that mean it should be it?

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There shouldn't be a look at bonuses across the board, that we

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need to look at the whole culture. Do you think Stephen Hester has

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done the symbolic thing and we should move on? No, we should look

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at them. Being taxed and bonuses being absolutely clearly

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performance related. It's difficult to argue with those things, but I

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just need to repeat that it's important to set those goals up

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front and not get into the position we've been in of somebody having

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been awarded a bonus on a package they thought they were being

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recruited on and a trial by media to judge whether they are allowed

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to keep that. What about in your company? What are they like? Does

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everyone at senior level get one? Is it reward-related in the sense

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of performance? Absolutely. There are no bonuses in our economy which

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are not -- company which are not so and especially relating to

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performance over the long term. They are long term, so not built in

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as an extension of your salary so you come in and you are always

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going to get a bonus, just a question of how much? Absolutely

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not, no. Performance-related. they stopping at the moment? Have

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you been rowing back or are people getting them? Given that as a

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company we are performing really well you would expect everybody in

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the company to be rewarded fairly. Well, it's one of those issues that

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you think will go on and on. It will be interesting so see what

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happens over the months, as we hear of other bonuses, although not

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necessarily-state-owned bankers. It's time for the quiz. The

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question for today is which of these qualifications is currently

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worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables? Is it A, a

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fish husbandry, level-two certificate in nail technology,

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horse care or a legal two award in travel and tourism. If you manage -

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- if he manages to get here, Toby Young will give us the correct

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answer. We will turn our eyes to Syria, because later today the Arab

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League will ask the UN Security Council to back a resolution for

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Bashar Al-Assad to transfer powers to his deputy. They say 5,000

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people have been killed by the regime over past ten months.

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Western states, including Britain, are backing the resolution, but

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Russia, which has a veto, has said it's not happy with the draft.

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Barbara Plett is at the UN and joins us now. Isn't that the

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problem, Russia will not sign up and so there won't be an agreement

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on this? That's been the problem before. It's been the problem for

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about ten months now, because the Security Council has been

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deadlocked on this issue. When the opportunity came up with the Arab

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League Britain and other western states thought oh, this may be the

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way to breakthrough this, because if the Arab League is coming to the

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Security Council and asking for help, asking for support for a plan,

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that it drew up on ending the crisis, it will be much more

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difficult for Russia to continue to say no. That's why today the head

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of the Arab League, as well as the Prime Minister are Qatar are coming

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here to make their appeal in person and that's why Britain and other

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states are sending their foreign ministers to back that up. That

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might not be enough. That is true. If it isn't enough, where do they

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go next? Well, I think if they are not able to pass this resolution in

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front of the Security Council, the council options really are very

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limited. I don't really see where they can go from here, because at

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that point it becomes very different positions about what is

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going on. It becomes an issue that you can't bridge with negotiation

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and the basic difference, I think, is the fate of Bashar Al-Assad at

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this point. The plan, the resolution, calls for a political

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transition plan where he'll in effect hand power to the deputy to

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oversee a national unit government. The Russians have said that sounds

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like regime change and they don't want to give up support for Bashar

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Al-Assad, because he's a strong ally, but also because they feel

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that if this plan is imposed on Syria, with the Syrians rejecting

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it, it would cause more violence and cause the civil war to escalate.

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That's a very fundamental difference. If they are not able to

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bridge that with the resolution, it's difficult to see how to do it

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another way. What is your feeling in terms of being able to persuade

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the Russians? Is there a sense it's possible? I think there is a sense

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that if it is possible it would be in this way - by having a strong

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call from the region, because the Security Council puts stock in

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regional requests. These are countries which neighbour Syria and

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they've come up with the plan mostly by consensus. Only one

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country, Lebanon, disassociated itself from it. Having said that,

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the statements coming from Russia about draft have been negative and

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they've said this is really unacceptable and they've accused

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the Security Council of moving in the wrong detection, so it's

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difficult to see whether -- direction, so it is difficult to

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see if Russia can accept this. There is going to be every attempt

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to try to make it abstain, not veto the resolution. In the meantime,

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the violence has got so bad, that the Arab League has had to take out

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its monitors? That's right. The nations are using the situation on

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the ground are trying to add pressure. They are saying the

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situation is deteriorating very badly. It can't afford to stay

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silent any more. Having said that, if the resolution is passed I don't

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think anyone is under any illusion that the violence with industry, --

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end, because the Security Council is not saying it will go in and try

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to help to bring an end to the violence, but what the resolution

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would do is put a lot of pressure on the government and in that

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Syrians would be isolated because if Russia were not to veto, that

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would be a message saying they were not supporting Syria in the way

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they have been. That is really what the aim of the resolution is.

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sort of attempt at military intervention by Arab armies, that

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is very unlikely to happen, isn't it? Yes, I think that is very

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unlikely. There had been a suggestion from the Prime Minister

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of Qatar that some Arab peacekeepers be sent in, but nobody

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took that up Any international intervention, people are very wary

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about. I'm almost certain that wouldn't get through the Security

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Council. There have been some suggestion that Turkey might, if

:09:59.:10:05.

not send in troops, but create a buffer zone and carve out a safe

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haven. Perhaps if the country descends into complete chaos that

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may be an option, but if there is any military intervention it will

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be very hard won and people are wary about intervening in Syria,

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because of the delicate situation. Thank you.

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Joining me now is the former Foreign Office minister, Mark

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Malloch-Brown and the chief co- ordinator of the Syrian network for

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human rights. Welcome to the programme. We have been hearing

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from Barbara about the fact it could be very difficult to persuade

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Russia to sign up to any resolution and without that presumably the

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violence just continues and Syria draws closer to civil war? Well,

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basically that is true, because the people there cannot tolerate any

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more humiliation and on the other hand, the Free Syrian Army stated

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their job is to protect the peaceful demonstrations, but there

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are other people who are tempted on a daily basis by that access of

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violence that they have only one solution, to hold arms and join the

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Free Syrian Army and I think this balance would be broken very

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shortly if the international community does not accept step in

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to protect those civilians. Stepping in, you mean intervene in

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a military way, not just diplomatically? No, there is a

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point in the middle, which is different from the Libyan scenario.

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It is proposed in three steps. The first, which is the humanitarian

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corridors, to help those indirect victims, who are the few of this

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furious mood to give them food and medical supplies. The twoing second

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things, the buffer zone and no-fly zone which Wylfa sill Tate to break

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up the main body of the Army, which is still waiting for the right time

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to defect and dessert the Army and join the Free Syrian Army. Mark

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Malloch-Brown, the violence is getting worse and there was a

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terrible day yesterday. Just listening there, it doesn't sound

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as if there is going to be a resolution. You are experienced.

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Can Russia be pushed into this? think Russia's very, very worried

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that it's the thin end of the wedge to a full intervention on regime

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change and in that sense we are bearing the scars and price of lib

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-- Libya. Obviously, the situation cannot continue and therefore, some

:12:31.:12:35.

kind of compromise, which allows humanitarian safe havens and

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corridors and their protection, but it absolutely has cast in stone

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that it can't go further. That may ultimately be where we get to,

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particularly if any troop involvement under the UN flag is of

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Turks or Indonesians or malaisians or Bangladeshis, people -

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Acceptable in that sense? Yes, so Turkey may or may not be as a

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neighbour. I think the much more important point in a way is why has

:13:05.:13:15.
:13:15.:13:19.

this regime held on for as long as it has? An Aliadiere Wyatt -- as an

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alwit priority, we wonder why they are hanging on. While it is people

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fighting for their freedom, somehow that stability card has kept him in

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power. What we have to say to people is that Bashar Al-Assad is

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the barrier to stability. He's no longer the key and switch the

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internal dynamic, but it's hard to do when everyone is fighting. We

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need peace and dialogue as quickly as possible. That is not likely to

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happen, is it? Taking the stability point, do you agree with that, that

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there is a big body of public opinion that thinks that Bashar Al-

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Assad actually keeps stability to some extent, a modicum, rather than

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letting the mob rule and run Syria? No, this is not true, because from

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the observations we have on daily basis from the ground, you can look

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at all the minorities in general are - for example, the Kurds,

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yesterday, they lost two dead persons. They are a big minority.

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All the other minorities are feeling now this regime is not

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viable any more. They were in the past, but now they start to change.

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Do you think now there could be a situation where he may go

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relatively quickly, if that turn, as you described it, publicly in

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Syria, is that it happening? If we can switch that diealic, it is

:14:41.:14:48.

critical to him -- dynamic, it is critical to him going. The way to

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consolidate that is to try to resource peace. So you put in

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humanitarian corridors and put in a political dialogue. Will he let Dow

:14:58.:15:03.

that though? The fact that -- let you do that though? It is critical

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to get everyone on side, but if there's a plan here for a

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transition and evolutionary process which secures security and

:15:13.:15:17.

stability and whose end point is a government that represents all

:15:17.:15:21.

Syrians, then we are beginning to see the outlines of how we might

:15:21.:15:31.
:15:31.:15:34.

bet there, but it is actually Is it time to call on other groups

:15:34.:15:38.

for some kind of ceasefire? I think this pitch needs to be directed to

:15:38.:15:45.

the regime. I was saying, both sides. Well, the other side, they

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are defectors from the army. They stated very clearly that the

:15:49.:15:52.

responsibility is to protect civilians. If they are in a

:15:52.:15:56.

defensive position, you cannot tell them, just leave your own people.

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Today, 13 people have died under the rebels, in their houses, so

:16:03.:16:07.

they cannot keep silent. So it is not practical? You are completely

:16:07.:16:12.

right, it needs to be directed mainly at President Assad. He is

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now the instigator of the primary violence. By point isn't that

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everybody puts down their weapons and declares a ceasefire, there has

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to be a political process to achieve that. I'm saying that the

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Security Council and neighbours have to prioritise that. I think

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that once the fighting stops, President Assad is finished. He is

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only able to hold on in a situation of chaos, where he has the military

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on his side and he can go on making this kind of argument. If we can

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get to 8 and a half -- took a political argument, it is finished

:16:51.:16:56.

for him. This regime is not viable without the iron grip on the

:16:56.:17:00.

country, with the security forces and not just the military forces.

:17:00.:17:06.

They are controlling the country, starting from the family and

:17:06.:17:08.

spreading to the Haute Provence is. Do you think the international

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response has been a adequate? they feel that they are confronting

:17:15.:17:20.

Iran through Syria. They see Syria as the forefront of the Iranian

:17:20.:17:24.

regime. They are afraid that they will create a bigger war in the

:17:24.:17:28.

region. I think the best way is to approach that gradually, in a

:17:28.:17:33.

different scenario, different from the Libyan one. So they try to

:17:33.:17:37.

implement steps that can help the Syrians themselves to free

:17:37.:17:40.

themselves by their own hands, without having this kind of

:17:40.:17:49.

external interference. Why the international community does not

:17:49.:17:54.

recognise the political body, the Syrian National Council, as the

:17:54.:17:58.

main opposition, I don't know. They need to say that they recognise and

:17:58.:18:03.

support them. That is what they did, to some extent, in Libya. Why is

:18:03.:18:08.

that not happening? There is some contact with the Libyan -- Syrian

:18:08.:18:14.

National Council now, we can move to beginning to recognise it. But

:18:14.:18:19.

we need to unleash that kind of diplomatic campaign now. We are

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both agreeing on the main point, that a fully fledged intervention,

:18:23.:18:28.

of the Libyan kind, is really going to stir the flames. I agree that

:18:29.:18:35.

Iran is a dangerous neighbourhood behind this regime, but it is even

:18:35.:18:41.

more broadly that we have Hezbollah in Lebanon, it is a tinderbox and

:18:41.:18:44.

it needs to be handled carefully. But none of the careful handling

:18:44.:18:48.

can be an excuse for not getting to the endgame, which is a change of

:18:49.:18:54.

leadership and regime in Syria. That has to happen. There is no way

:18:54.:19:00.

back. OK, thank you very much. Now, from the Middle East to the

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South Atlantic, where tensions have been increasing between Britain and

:19:04.:19:08.

Argentina over the Falkland Islands. This morning we learned that the

:19:08.:19:11.

Royal Navy is to send one of its newest warships to the area. At

:19:11.:19:15.

Westminster, MPs have been debating the future of the disputed

:19:15.:19:19.

territory. Ben Geoghegan is in central lobby. Yes, the Ministry of

:19:19.:19:24.

Defence have been saying that this morning that the deployment of HMS

:19:24.:19:27.

Dauntless is simply routine. But it does come at a time of rising

:19:27.:19:31.

tension between Britain and Argentina, with Argentina at

:19:31.:19:36.

demanding a renegotiation of sovereignty and setting up what the

:19:36.:19:39.

Foreign Office have described today as an economic blockade against

:19:39.:19:44.

Falklands island vessels in the region. Joining us is Guy Opperman,

:19:44.:19:48.

the MP that organised today's debate, and also Lord West, the

:19:48.:19:54.

commander of HMS ardent during the Falklands conflict. Before asking

:19:54.:19:58.

about the debate, give us your assessment of how you read the

:19:58.:20:02.

situation between Britain and Argentina. Where is this tension

:20:02.:20:06.

going to lead us? There is certainly an economic blockade. It

:20:06.:20:09.

was good in today's debate to see the entirety of the house

:20:09.:20:14.

representing all aspects of the footprint -- different political

:20:14.:20:17.

views, supporting the Falkland islanders and the Foreign Office,

:20:17.:20:24.

who have worked very hard to ensure that the blockade is lifted so that

:20:24.:20:28.

they can get on with the economic growth that has taken place. It is

:20:28.:20:33.

a very strong Ireland, with very strong views on self-determination

:20:33.:20:37.

and the way they should be going forward. A Lord West, we heard from

:20:37.:20:41.

Jeremy Browne, the Foreign Office minister, saying that Argentina may

:20:41.:20:46.

yet seek to intensify their pressure. Is that how you see it?

:20:46.:20:51.

They may do, they may be doing some of this for internal regions.

:20:51.:20:55.

to differ -- dangers? It is, if you get a splinter group of the

:20:55.:20:58.

military, you sometimes think there was an opportunity and things can

:20:58.:21:01.

happen. We have to be very robust in the way that we respond, which I

:21:01.:21:05.

think the Government are doing. We have to be sure we get the defence

:21:05.:21:08.

is right because there is no way we could recapture them as we could be

:21:08.:21:13.

for, because we do not have the carrier aircraft. You agree with

:21:13.:21:16.

what Sir Mike Jackson said at the weekend? Absolutely, I have said

:21:17.:21:20.

it's a number of times. Is that a weakness that you think the

:21:20.:21:24.

Government should not have allowed? I don't think they should have got

:21:24.:21:27.

rid of Harrier jets, but the important thing is to make sure

:21:27.:21:31.

that the islands are defender probably. It is a standing

:21:31.:21:36.

commitment and inevitably, one of the Type 45 Destroyers will end up

:21:36.:21:41.

there. What it does, because it is an amazing anti air warfare system,

:21:41.:21:45.

if it is close to the island it can make sure that nothing can get to

:21:45.:21:50.

the airfield very well. That is a step up. I'm sure the deployment is

:21:50.:21:54.

routine, because we have so few of them, you have to use them

:21:54.:21:59.

everywhere. In the debate today, you are calling for self-

:21:59.:22:03.

determination to be written into law under the new White Paper that

:22:03.:22:09.

the Government is bringing out. Why is that so important, when the

:22:09.:22:11.

Government are making clear that there is no question about self-

:22:11.:22:14.

determination for the people of the Falkland Islands? I welcome

:22:14.:22:18.

completely that the Government are very supportive of the principle of

:22:18.:22:23.

self-determination. I accept that it comes within United Nations

:22:23.:22:28.

conventions. It would be a strong and reassuring decision by the

:22:28.:22:32.

Government in the White Paper if they were to say to all of the

:22:32.:22:35.

overseas territories with a settled population, of which there are well

:22:35.:22:41.

over a dozen, that those people, in a natural law of this country, it

:22:41.:22:44.

is their self-determination principle that decides what will

:22:44.:22:48.

happen to the islands. There has been a history down the years, in

:22:48.:22:51.

relation to Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands in the 1960s,

:22:51.:22:55.

where the Government of the day has not necessarily been as supportive

:22:55.:22:59.

and has been in negotiations that the islanders were not aware of.

:22:59.:23:03.

While I accept that this government is very robust and resolute in its

:23:03.:23:08.

support, I want to try to ensure that it does not waver in future.

:23:08.:23:11.

Lord West, do you think there was a danger that it might waver?

:23:11.:23:18.

Historically, if we look back, we were certainly wavering before 82.

:23:18.:23:22.

I have to say, I rather support this. I was not aware it was going

:23:22.:23:29.

on. I was delighted to see an article in The Or Observer, where

:23:29.:23:34.

it showed that some of the entrants for the conflict, they had been

:23:34.:23:39.

back and told their children, this place is not Argentine, they eat

:23:39.:23:43.

fish and chips and they are very different. If that if Labour can

:23:43.:23:48.

get over and it links in with self- determination, I think that would

:23:48.:23:52.

be better than sabre-rattling and stupidity. The Argentinians are

:23:52.:23:54.

friends, we want to trade with them and we would like a better

:23:54.:23:58.

relationship. I believe the younger people of the Argentinian country

:23:58.:24:03.

believe that. A good conciliatory note to end on. Thank you both very

:24:03.:24:07.

much. What can be done to save the

:24:07.:24:12.

British high street? In the last year, giants like mother where, --

:24:12.:24:18.

Mothercare, H&M Bay and Habitat have closed stores. The Government

:24:18.:24:26.

have appointed Mary Portas to carry out a review. We sent our own regal

:24:26.:24:36.
:24:36.:24:37.

reporter to survey the changing Most of us buy into the nostalgia

:24:37.:24:41.

for the days when your high-street offered a butcher, hardware store

:24:41.:24:46.

and Baker, separate shops, separate people, members of the community.

:24:47.:24:52.

Not like today, with that parade of homogenised brands that seemingly

:24:52.:24:58.

festoon the high street of any town. The story we are always sold is

:24:58.:25:02.

that high street is dying, unable to deal with multiple competition

:25:02.:25:06.

and full of boarded-up shops, unable to deal with the competition

:25:06.:25:10.

of the supermarket, online shopping and the fact that customers just

:25:10.:25:14.

don't have that much money any more. The only survivors being are those

:25:15.:25:19.

that have radically changed their business plan. But is that actually

:25:19.:25:23.

true? I think we have to remember that a lot of retailers were over-

:25:23.:25:26.

represented on the high street. It is an extremely competitive market.

:25:26.:25:31.

It is also very flat. For a lot of retailers, the only way to grow is

:25:31.:25:35.

to steal a share from the competition. With that in mind, we

:25:36.:25:39.

have to remember a lot of average retailers are out there. Over the

:25:39.:25:43.

years, their brand has become muddled, they have been under too

:25:43.:25:46.

much competition, whether from supermarkets or the internet, and,

:25:46.:25:52.

as a result, when consumer spending becomes constrained, it is very

:25:52.:25:58.

difficult to justify a place for these retailers. So, what we are

:25:58.:26:01.

witnessing is pressure from the supermarket, internet and recession,

:26:01.:26:06.

but it is commercial revolution, not high-street death. But that

:26:06.:26:10.

does not make easy. It has to be acknowledged that if you are a

:26:10.:26:14.

Tesco type company and have an army of lawyers and planning experts,

:26:14.:26:18.

you can cut through the system like a knife through butter. Small

:26:18.:26:21.

independent shops cannot. There was a case for balancing the playing

:26:21.:26:26.

field, partly through democracy and partly through direct intervention.

:26:26.:26:29.

We should be doing everything we can to create a mixed high street,

:26:29.:26:38.

which is what people want. In its commercial jungle, does government?

:26:38.:26:43.

At -- where the internet has a role, does government? Particularly early

:26:43.:26:46.

when you look at interest rates for that high street, there are plenty

:26:46.:26:50.

of things that the Government can do to help independent retailers.

:26:50.:26:53.

The Government should at least create a two-tier system of

:26:53.:27:01.

businesses, so we can encourage small and independent shops, the

:27:01.:27:03.

ones that find themselves with their heads just above the surface,

:27:03.:27:09.

that is something that can be done. That is something we should do.

:27:09.:27:14.

joined now by the Conservative MP Jane Ellison, who wised -- used to

:27:14.:27:18.

work for John Lewis. Just to pick up some of those points, isn't it a

:27:18.:27:23.

case of survival of the fittest as far as shops on a high-speed car

:27:23.:27:28.

concerned? Consumers make their choice, and some have to close?

:27:28.:27:33.

are probably right. The reason we invested in Costcutter is that

:27:33.:27:35.

shopping habits are changing and what people are looking for is

:27:35.:27:39.

changing. We have an ageing population that don't necessarily

:27:39.:27:43.

want to go to out-of-town superstores. People want to shop

:27:43.:27:47.

little and often, which reflects the economic situation. Rising fuel

:27:47.:27:50.

prices mean that people don't want to drive to do big shops. That is

:27:50.:27:54.

one of the reasons why community shopping makes absolute sense.

:27:54.:27:58.

are saying that high street should be doing well out of these

:27:58.:28:00.

circumstances because more people are going there and go to out-of-

:28:00.:28:05.

town shopping centres? To pick up at point, the danger is that we

:28:05.:28:09.

look at the high street purely in the sense of retail. If they

:28:09.:28:12.

continue to take that view, the high streets will die. We need to

:28:12.:28:16.

take a wider perspective, thinking about town centres and local

:28:16.:28:21.

community programmes to address things like infrastructure,

:28:21.:28:26.

property and shops. Hospitals, you know, there is a whole wider

:28:26.:28:30.

perspective which I think we need to look at. If they don't, do you

:28:30.:28:36.

see, not the death of a high street, that sounds dramatic, the idea of

:28:36.:28:40.

small independent shops not being able to survive? They will struggle,

:28:40.:28:47.

yes. Jane Ellison, what can the Government do? The biggest problem

:28:47.:28:50.

with businesses around me is the rates, the rent they have to pay on

:28:51.:28:54.

the shop, that is why shops are closing. Is there anything that can

:28:54.:28:57.

be done about that? Business rates and rents are two different issues.

:28:58.:29:02.

I do want to say something about rent, because there was also a role

:29:02.:29:06.

for landlords. I had the same experience as you. The Localism

:29:06.:29:10.

Bill does give an opportunity, for the first time, full council to

:29:10.:29:13.

have more control about what they do with business rates. Will that

:29:13.:29:21.

bring them down? In some cases yes. But it is not just about councils

:29:21.:29:24.

or governments. There is no one single answer to the problems the

:29:24.:29:27.

high-street phases. You are right to say there is evolution going on.

:29:27.:29:31.

Lots of people have to play their part. There has been a huge

:29:31.:29:35.

democratic disconnect between local councils and local shops. Retailers

:29:35.:29:40.

and shops do not vote. Up until now, there has been no relationship

:29:40.:29:43.

between food they pay their business rates to. I think

:29:43.:29:46.

reconnecting that is a good thing. It gives councils some flexibility.

:29:47.:29:51.

But there is more to it than that. Surely a thriving High Street is a

:29:51.:29:55.

good thing for a local council? Absolutely, but until you change

:29:55.:29:59.

the system and the way that rates are collected and retained,

:29:59.:30:04.

councils didn't have a direct interest in that. They do want it

:30:04.:30:08.

to thrive. But in and out of town centre, the council was able to put

:30:08.:30:13.

a large number of jobs on that and can say something began significant.

:30:13.:30:16.

It is more incremental with the high street. Should they cap the

:30:16.:30:20.

growth of out-of-town shopping centres? I know that is one of the

:30:20.:30:22.

recommendations. I think the Government is looking at that. They

:30:22.:30:28.

promised a response since bring. you think they should? They need to

:30:28.:30:32.

look at it, but there is a real danger of thinking that is the

:30:32.:30:36.

answer. It could be part of the answer? Looking at it could be part

:30:36.:30:39.

of the answer. At the end of the day, it is successful because

:30:39.:30:42.

consumers go there. What the Government should not be trying to

:30:42.:30:46.

do is make people do something they don't want to do. Equally, what was

:30:46.:30:49.

said in a film about the level playing field, that is really

:30:49.:30:52.

important and there is a huge role to play for everybody. Landlords as

:30:52.:30:56.

well. I would like to make that point. One of the reasons out of

:30:56.:30:59.

town centres thrive is that they often have a single landlord, with

:30:59.:31:03.

a single vision of the mix of shops they are trying to achieve. We

:31:03.:31:11.

Should the Government get involved? It sounds like the Government is

:31:12.:31:15.

trying to take a back view in sense of allowing people to make their

:31:15.:31:21.

own decisions, but if we want the high streets to jive, if that is

:31:21.:31:26.

the aim -- to survive, if that is the aim, shouldn't they want them

:31:26.:31:32.

to proceed? Absolutely. That is the way to go forward. The point about

:31:32.:31:36.

out-of-town superstores and shopping malls being under one

:31:36.:31:41.

property owner or landlord means they can take decisions and have a

:31:41.:31:45.

long-term vision. Absolutely, for the long term. Whereas, in high

:31:45.:31:48.

streets and town centres, you have a whole raft of different parties

:31:48.:31:52.

and it's difficult to bring them together to have one vision that

:31:52.:31:57.

can take it forward for the next few years. That is a real role for

:31:57.:32:01.

local authorities and all local MPs and councillors and shopkeepers

:32:01.:32:04.

themselves. There is a real opportunity there, what Mary Portas

:32:04.:32:10.

called the town teams. Thank you both very much.

:32:10.:32:13.

From crisis on the high street, to crisis in our primary schools. Up

:32:13.:32:18.

and down the country there are a shortage of places. In fact, in

:32:18.:32:22.

some towns local councils are considering turning empty shops

:32:22.:32:28.

into classrooms. What is to be done? We are having lots of babies.

:32:28.:32:31.

Mainly as a result of immigration and a birth rate that is just

:32:31.:32:35.

generally going up. It means the number of extra school and nursery

:32:35.:32:45.

places we'll need to find by 2020 is 720,000. But, there are about

:32:45.:32:48.

444,000 spare ones across the country, so it's not that bad,

:32:48.:32:53.

right? Well, it is, because the places aren't in the right places.

:32:53.:32:58.

They know that here in Winchester, where the local authority needs to

:32:58.:33:03.

find space for an extra 80 children a year for the next several years

:33:03.:33:07.

to cope with the number of people coming here. It's been a great

:33:07.:33:11.

place for older people, but we are finding lots of older -- younger

:33:12.:33:14.

people have discovered Winchester is better than London and they are

:33:14.:33:17.

moving in with young families, producing more children and

:33:17.:33:20.

therefore more pressure on the schools. Maybe and we are not too

:33:20.:33:23.

sure, maybe there is a drift away from the private sector, so that is

:33:24.:33:27.

all adding to the figures and meaning we are having to look at

:33:27.:33:31.

the upper range of estimates rather than the mid-range of estimates.

:33:31.:33:35.

How they'll cope is the talk of the town. At this school, they are

:33:35.:33:39.

going to concrete over a playing field to build temporary classrooms,

:33:39.:33:43.

which is causing concern at the school gates. For us, that would be

:33:43.:33:48.

a 50% increase in pupil numbers, without any further infrastructure,

:33:48.:33:55.

no increased hall, no increase in staff facilities. We are already

:33:55.:33:59.

under severe pressure, because the building is about 80% of the size

:33:59.:34:03.

it should be for the number on roll. The department for education say

:34:03.:34:09.

they are trying to help by spending extra money, up to �4 billion

:34:09.:34:12.

targeted at particular problem areas. They also say their policy

:34:12.:34:15.

of allowing parents to set up so- called free schools should make a

:34:15.:34:21.

difference too. Although there's no guarantee that will help here in

:34:21.:34:25.

Winchester. I had a look at the spread of free schools, for example,

:34:25.:34:29.

and most are secondary schools. Most of them are in areas where

:34:29.:34:33.

there is not a shortage of places, so there is no matching of need and

:34:33.:34:37.

where the money's been ploughed. Another solution could be to lift

:34:37.:34:41.

the limit on class sizes, currently 30. But that would need a change in

:34:41.:34:48.

the law. It is even less popular with parents. With us now and for

:34:48.:34:52.

the rest of the programme, he's made it, yes, we are joined by the

:34:53.:34:55.

author and educationalist Toby Young, who has apparently walked

:34:55.:35:02.

and cycled and hot footing is from around the corner, Labour MP Lisa

:35:02.:35:06.

Nandy, who is on the Education Select Committee. We'll go straight

:35:06.:35:12.

in there. Toby Young, why is there such a shortage? The reason is two

:35:12.:35:16.

fold. First, we are in the middle of a huge population boom and

:35:16.:35:19.

secondly, the Labour Government didn't spend enough money on

:35:19.:35:23.

primary places. Primary places are funded through what is called

:35:23.:35:30.

basic-need funding and Labour cut it by 26% between 04 and 0. Even

:35:30.:35:32.

though the Office for National Statistics, in 2007, reported that

:35:32.:35:37.

we were experiencing the biggest baby boom in England and Wales for

:35:37.:35:42.

three decades, Labour still cut basic spending up to 2010, so we

:35:42.:35:47.

are reaping the world wind. Lisa Nandy, even I knew we were planning

:35:47.:35:51.

for this boom in schoolchildren. Why didn't Labour do anything about

:35:51.:35:54.

it? We did, because one of the pressures on primary schools across

:35:54.:35:58.

the country is the lack of physical space. When you look at the

:35:58.:36:01.

shortage of primary school places, it's a particular London problem.

:36:01.:36:06.

It exists in other areas, but it's a particular problem in London and

:36:06.:36:11.

Labour brought forward a programme to build primary schools, rebuild

:36:11.:36:14.

them, �7 billion programme. Building schools for the future?

:36:14.:36:18.

this was the primary capital places programme and this was specifically

:36:18.:36:22.

around briemary schools and that was scrapped by -- primary schools

:36:22.:36:25.

and that was scrapped by the coalition when they came into

:36:25.:36:29.

office. While Toby is right and there was a failure of local

:36:29.:36:33.

authorities to plan in some areas, there is also a real pressure on

:36:33.:36:40.

primary school building as well. There is an acceptance there that

:36:40.:36:44.

the planning wasn't there and now we have too many children. Isn't it

:36:44.:36:48.

enough to give local authorities, taking the space issue in hand,

:36:48.:36:51.

just to allow good performing schools to have extra classes? Some

:36:52.:36:55.

of the schools around where I live do that already. That would be the

:36:55.:37:01.

easiest and simplest and fastest way to take on extra children?

:37:01.:37:06.

happening around the country. If you look at how much the present

:37:06.:37:13.

Government spend on basic need in 2011, it was 1.3 billion compared

:37:13.:37:16.

to almost a third of that in the last year that Labour was in office,

:37:16.:37:21.

but free schools can be a very cost effective way. Why? Aren't they

:37:21.:37:24.

more expensive because you can't plan, so you don't have an idea of

:37:24.:37:28.

how many people are going to be taken on. You don't know where they

:37:28.:37:32.

are going to be. We have seen how ineffective the planning system is.

:37:33.:37:37.

We are currently in the middle of this huge crisis, but the reason it

:37:37.:37:40.

can be more effective is partly because it's much more cost

:37:40.:37:44.

effective. The average cost to a local authority of building a new

:37:44.:37:48.

primary was nearly �8 million under Labour. My group, the West London

:37:48.:37:53.

Free School is setting up a primary, we hope, which will hope in

:37:53.:37:56.

Hammersmith and Fulham in 2013 for around one million. Cost effective

:37:56.:37:59.

says Toby. The problem with that is Michael Gove has been very clear

:37:59.:38:02.

that the purpose behind free schools is to provide parents with

:38:02.:38:07.

more choice, so if you set them up in addition to fill places that

:38:07.:38:10.

don't already exist, then you don't provide parents with choice. That

:38:10.:38:14.

is why he's very much focused on improving free school applications

:38:14.:38:21.

so far in areas where there is no shortage of places. He wants good

:38:21.:38:26.

schools to flourish and bad schools to wither and die, and they are his

:38:26.:38:29.

words. He was asked that question if the House of Commons in October

:38:29.:38:34.

when he announced the 79 new free schools that were approved and over

:38:34.:38:38.

80% where in areas where there is acute basic need, so it's not just

:38:39.:38:43.

true what you said. The first lot, 24 free schools, that opened their

:38:43.:38:48.

doors, 15 were in areas where there were no needs for further places.

:38:48.:38:53.

Just hold it there. Don't go anywhere. The Education Secretary

:38:54.:39:00.

has had a busy morning. He's been giching evidence to the education

:39:00.:39:03.

select committee -- giving evidence from the education select you

:39:03.:39:09.

committee and some of the questions were -- Education Select Committee

:39:10.:39:14.

and some were tweeted in from the public. Some questions are inspired

:39:14.:39:23.

by the twitter feed. 5,000-plus wanting to interact with you. We'll

:39:23.:39:28.

go around, each of us, and if you can give us quick answers, that

:39:29.:39:34.

would be great. If good requires pupil performance to exceed the

:39:34.:39:43.

national average and if all schools must be good, how is this possible?

:39:43.:39:49.

By getting better all the time. Thank you. It is possible, is it?

:39:49.:39:54.

It is possible to get better all the time. Were you better at

:39:54.:40:00.

literacy than numeracy? I can't remember. Can you set out the chain

:40:00.:40:04.

of responsibility in academies? depends who the sponsor is. What

:40:04.:40:08.

evidence do you have to indicate that the pupil premium is working?

:40:08.:40:12.

We are gathering evidence and as Alex pointed out, given that it's a

:40:13.:40:16.

relatively new thing, we'll come back to the committee and present

:40:16.:40:20.

all the evidence we have in due course. Why is there not the

:40:20.:40:23.

flexibility to allow summer-born pre-term children to delay their

:40:23.:40:29.

entry to school by a year? That requires a long answer. You can

:40:29.:40:35.

have a little bit longer. We want children to be in school learning

:40:35.:40:40.

as quickly as possible. I very much treasure the King James Bible my

:40:40.:40:45.

gran gave me when I was six. Have you got the - the project you have

:40:45.:40:49.

to have one in every school, have you got it funded and don't you

:40:49.:40:53.

think it can speak for itself and it doesn't need a foreword from

:40:53.:41:00.

you? Yes and yes. Why should there be fewer parent governors on an

:41:00.:41:06.

eabg governing body? There should be fewer overall. Can I ask a

:41:06.:41:13.

favour? You very kindly provided me with some water, will you excuse me

:41:13.:41:22.

for one second and I'll come back and answer questions. I'll be back

:41:22.:41:26.

in a minute. That's hilarious. I have never seen a minister get up

:41:26.:41:29.

in a Select Committee and go to the toilet. By the way, you can't go

:41:29.:41:35.

until after the end of the programme. I'm telling you that.

:41:35.:41:39.

Enoch Powell's advice was don't go to the toilet beforehand on

:41:39.:41:42.

Question Time because if you want to pee you'll do much better.

:41:42.:41:47.

you think he's gone to look at the answers. I was relieved he came

:41:47.:41:52.

back. I know about that. That was Michael Gove in front of the

:41:52.:41:56.

Education Select Committee, where he was being asked questions from

:41:56.:42:00.

the public. We are not ones to miss an opportunity to jump on the

:42:00.:42:05.

bandwagon. We have been asking for questions for tobacco and Lisa,. --

:42:05.:42:11.

Toby and Lisa. Are you ready? Pencil or pen in your hand. This is

:42:11.:42:16.

how much do you personally make out of the free school adventure or is

:42:16.:42:21.

it pure altruism on your part? West London Free School is run by a

:42:21.:42:25.

charity. None of us, none of the governors are paid everything. The

:42:25.:42:29.

only money I've made out of becoming involved is by being

:42:29.:42:32.

invited to appear on programmes like this. I haven't negotiated my

:42:32.:42:36.

sum, but I'm hoping to get a mug. wouldn't hold out. This is the

:42:36.:42:41.

negotiation for the mug. They've never given me a mug. I won't say

:42:41.:42:45.

anything about that. If we give one to Toby we'll give one to you. Are

:42:45.:42:49.

you for or against profit-making schools? This is the ideal from

:42:49.:42:53.

countries like Sweden, give us your answer? I don't have a dogmatic

:42:53.:42:58.

answer. I think the crucial thing is to use whichever providers can

:42:58.:43:03.

deliver the best education and get the best value for money and in

:43:03.:43:06.

Sweden the two largest commercial trends are the first and second

:43:06.:43:09.

most successful providers of school. That sounds like you would be in

:43:09.:43:14.

favour. Even though of course the coalition government said no to it.

:43:14.:43:18.

They haven't said no to out- sourcing the operation of free

:43:18.:43:24.

schools to full-profit companies or char ris. -- charities. You have

:43:24.:43:29.

the option and it is very difficult because of the EU procurement rules.

:43:29.:43:33.

We are not elected to get involved with that. I think every penny that

:43:33.:43:36.

is made through running a school operation should go back into the

:43:36.:43:39.

education for children. From Ronnie, is there anything that will

:43:39.:43:43.

convince you that free schools were a bad idea in let's say in a few

:43:44.:43:47.

years' time the exam results are down and any other research points

:43:47.:43:51.

to it perhaps not having reached your high expectations, would that

:43:51.:43:58.

make you question the whole ethos? I know you are not going to say

:43:58.:44:03.

about bad results. One of the great beauties is that this enables

:44:03.:44:07.

different groups to try out different things and in that way,

:44:07.:44:11.

all these experiments and test beds we can find out what works and what

:44:11.:44:14.

doesn't, discard what doesn't and duplicate what does. In that way

:44:14.:44:20.

we'll drive up standards. You would go for good results. You would be

:44:20.:44:24.

going for standard results? experiment that we are conducting

:44:24.:44:31.

is trying to deliver a grammar school curriculum, just a core of

:44:31.:44:38.

academic subjects complimented by art, music, drama and sport. We are

:44:38.:44:41.

trying to deliver that to a genuinely mixed comprehensive group

:44:41.:44:45.

of children and if we can succeed in getting better results I hope it

:44:45.:44:50.

will be duplicated around the country. Lisa, if the standards and

:44:50.:44:54.

results are impressive, will it make Labour look again at the idea

:44:54.:44:58.

of backing and certainly supporting free schools? Yes. I think you get

:44:58.:45:02.

good standards in every school. The other thing you have to look at is

:45:02.:45:05.

what happens to those children not in that school, who may not be

:45:05.:45:09.

subject today the same help and resources, but certainly if the

:45:09.:45:13.

evidence bears out that free schools are a good thing, I think

:45:13.:45:16.

that there is nobody who would say that school should be closed down.

:45:16.:45:19.

The difficulty you have is that Michael Gove has pushed through

:45:19.:45:23.

both the free schools and the academies programme very quickly.

:45:23.:45:26.

The bill in which it is based went through the Commons in just a

:45:26.:45:30.

matter of weeks under the powers normally reserved for terrorist

:45:30.:45:34.

legislation and the difficulty with this is the phrase that Toby used.

:45:34.:45:37.

This is an experiment. It's with children's lives and where children

:45:37.:45:45.

are concerned that is not good If a child has an alternative

:45:45.:45:49.

between being stuck in a school that has failed generations of

:45:49.:45:52.

children or going to one that was untested but might produce better

:45:52.:45:58.

results, why wouldn't that be a word experiment? I don't think the

:45:58.:46:02.

answer is necessary to set up a new school, it is to improve the

:46:02.:46:09.

existing one. This is a tricky one, this came from Alex, are you and

:46:09.:46:12.

Heston Blumenthal actually the same person? Have you got time for a

:46:12.:46:20.

quick anecdote? I was standing in a pub and a girl came up to me and

:46:20.:46:26.

asked if she could have a picture. Just as a joke I said, do you

:46:26.:46:30.

realise I am not Heston Blumenthal? They said they weren't going to

:46:30.:46:33.

bother with the picture. Are you going to last me the same question?

:46:33.:46:38.

No. The question for the quiz was which of these qualifications is

:46:38.:46:44.

currently worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables?

:46:44.:46:51.

Is it a Level 2 Diploma in fish husbandry, nail technology, horse

:46:51.:46:56.

care or travel and tourism? Travel and tourism. I'd quite like it to

:46:56.:47:02.

the horse care. It is! You were wrong. You left out one of the

:47:02.:47:07.

finer vocational qualifications introduced by Labour, a level two

:47:07.:47:11.

BTEC in personal effectiveness. Which, amongst other things, has a

:47:11.:47:17.

module in how to claim benefits. Not exactly aspirational! I think

:47:17.:47:20.

financial skills should be taught. Are you saying that vocational

:47:20.:47:24.

qualifications should not be at the level GCSEs? They should, but you

:47:24.:47:28.

have to distinguish between the Mickey Mouse subject you have just

:47:28.:47:32.

described, there were over 3000 vocational qualifications. The ones

:47:32.:47:37.

that are recognised will be reduced to 125. The notion that

:47:37.:47:40.

qualifications and things like hair and beauty, travel and tourism,

:47:40.:47:45.

that they are as valuable as a GCSE in history, science, it is just

:47:45.:47:50.

nonsense. Do you agree? Yes, but the question for Michael Gove is

:47:50.:47:55.

why he isn't taking steps to equalise the status of academic and

:47:55.:47:59.

vocational qualifications. Labour commissioned the Tomlinson report,

:47:59.:48:04.

which recommended one diploma way you could do academic or vocational,

:48:04.:48:09.

or a mix of both, and it would give them equal status. I wish we had

:48:09.:48:14.

implemented that. Michael Gove has no solution to this disparity,

:48:14.:48:17.

except for rubbishing qualifications which, to a lot of

:48:17.:48:22.

young people across the country, mean an awful lot.

:48:22.:48:25.

In December, David Cameron found himself in a minority of one when

:48:25.:48:31.

he said 'non' to plans to a new European treaty setting fiscal

:48:32.:48:35.

rules and harmonising budgets. It must have been a novelty to be

:48:35.:48:42.

joined by the Czech President, Vaclav Klaus. But what is it that

:48:42.:48:46.

Britain is staying out of? 27 members have signed up to the

:48:46.:48:50.

fiscal compact. Come -- countries have to balance budgets or keep

:48:50.:48:56.

structural deficits below 0.5% of GDP. Failure to meet the rule will

:48:56.:48:58.

trigger an automatic correction mechanism and the possibility of

:48:58.:49:05.

fines of up to 0.1% of GDP. Potentially, billions of euros. The

:49:05.:49:09.

new pact will be enforced the existing EU institutions, despite

:49:09.:49:12.

David Cameron saying only a few weeks ago that using them would be

:49:12.:49:18.

wrong. The hope is that it will restore confidence in the future of

:49:18.:49:21.

the eurozone and prevent another debt crisis. Whether it has the

:49:21.:49:26.

desired effect remains to be seen. I am joined from Brussels by Martin

:49:26.:49:30.

Callanan, the Conservative leader in the European Parliament. Do you

:49:30.:49:35.

feel let down by David Cameron over this issue of blocking the use of

:49:35.:49:40.

European Union institutions by the new group? No, I think the Prime

:49:40.:49:43.

Minister was being pragmatic. He was faced with two fundamental

:49:43.:49:47.

problems. The first one is that we are in a coalition with the Liberal

:49:47.:49:51.

Democrats and, as we know, they are keen to sign up to virtually

:49:51.:49:54.

everything that Europe produces. The second problem is that in order

:49:55.:49:58.

to stop this he would have to take legal action. He would have to do

:49:58.:50:02.

that through the European Court of Justice. He would have to ask the

:50:02.:50:05.

Court of Justice to rule on whether it itself should have the power to

:50:05.:50:09.

do this. It is complicated legally and it could take years. He is

:50:09.:50:13.

reserving his position. If there are attempts to encroach on the

:50:13.:50:16.

single market or anything that affects British interests in the

:50:16.:50:21.

future, that is an option. Why was there so much cheering by Tory

:50:21.:50:27.

backbenchers at the time that this was some great hurrah? That wasn't

:50:27.:50:32.

the only subject of the veto. What he did, and has still done, has

:50:32.:50:35.

prevented a whole new section of the treaty being established, which

:50:35.:50:39.

would have the risk of caucusing, eurozone members voting together

:50:39.:50:43.

within the eurozone institutions and run the risk of damaging

:50:43.:50:48.

Britain's interests in the single market. This treaty is outside of

:50:48.:50:52.

the EU structures completely. The veto was effective, in that respect.

:50:52.:50:56.

In a sense, if you look back at some of the quotes, was there

:50:56.:51:00.

anything explicit in what David Cameron said after the veto? That

:51:00.:51:04.

he was actually going to say that those institutions are could be

:51:04.:51:09.

used to enforce that fiscal deal? think there was a number of

:51:09.:51:13.

statements that lead people to imply that was being said.

:51:13.:51:17.

Ultimately, it was presented as a veto. There was no treaty on the

:51:17.:51:20.

table at that stage. It was a political agreement. There was no

:51:20.:51:24.

detail to be talked about. He made it very clear that he would not be

:51:24.:51:29.

bound by it and Britain was not going to accept it. I would not

:51:29.:51:34.

just assume it is only the Czechs that would be against this. Other

:51:34.:51:37.

countries have problems with it. Sweden have said they will sign it

:51:37.:51:44.

as low as they are not bound by any of the conditions within it. A

:51:44.:51:48.

number of member states will have to have a referendum or approval in

:51:48.:51:51.

Parliament. I think a list of countries that don't approve will

:51:51.:51:55.

be greater by the time we get to ratification. The Liberal Democrats

:51:55.:51:58.

were right, for practical reasons and on an issue of policy and

:51:58.:52:02.

principle, it was the right thing to do? David Cameron's position now

:52:02.:52:07.

is the right way to go? The Liberal Democrat position is usually that

:52:07.:52:11.

whatever is put in front of Britain, we have to sign it because we have

:52:11.:52:16.

to be seen as good Europeans. David Cameron took exactly the right

:52:17.:52:21.

position. He was initially backed by Nick Clegg, it was a position

:52:21.:52:24.

agreed in advance by him. It was only afterwards that he started

:52:25.:52:27.

getting lobbying by his own backbenchers and changed his

:52:27.:52:32.

position. David Cameron is standing up for the interests of the UK.

:52:32.:52:36.

He's taking a hard-headed, pragmatic decision about what is in

:52:36.:52:39.

the UK interests. It's nice to have a Prime Minister like that, after

:52:39.:52:43.

years of Labour role where they would also sign up to pretty much

:52:43.:52:45.

anything. There has been a lot of debate

:52:45.:52:50.

about what was expected from Euro- sceptics. That somehow when David

:52:50.:52:54.

Cameron came back before Christmas, having vetoed signing up to this

:52:54.:52:58.

treaty and then saying that he would not allow the new fiscal deal

:52:58.:53:01.

to be using institutions of the European Union, that is what a

:53:01.:53:06.

great success, this was David Cameron showing his strength. Who

:53:06.:53:10.

misunderstood what? Did the Euro- sceptics get it wrong and try to

:53:10.:53:15.

read more into it, or has David Cameron duped them? The reason

:53:15.:53:20.

Euro-sceptics, and I count myself as one, were so delighted by David

:53:20.:53:25.

Cameron using the veto, was because it signalled to our European

:53:25.:53:28.

neighbours that we are not in favour of a shift away from what

:53:28.:53:33.

the European Union is at the moment to a much more federalist situation,

:53:33.:53:36.

a United States of Europe, if you like. I don't think that has

:53:36.:53:39.

changed. The reason people like me are getting too worked up about

:53:39.:53:43.

what happened yesterday is that there is a very good chance that

:53:43.:53:47.

this trip he will never actually be ratified. It is due to decided its

:53:47.:53:51.

present form in March. Even Sarkozy has said he will not sign it in

:53:51.:53:54.

March because of the upcoming French presidential election. His

:53:54.:54:00.

opponent might not either. Francois Hollande, who has a commanding lead

:54:00.:54:05.

in the polls, in all likely the next President of France, he says

:54:05.:54:08.

he wants to renegotiate it. There are problems in Sweden and

:54:08.:54:12.

Czechoslovakia. It seems to me that it is unlikely this treaty will

:54:12.:54:17.

ever be in force. Why get in an argument about the means in which

:54:17.:54:23.

it would be enforced? If 25 of the 27 EU member states are in favour

:54:24.:54:27.

of this dramatic sea-change towards a much more federalist United

:54:27.:54:31.

States of Europe, that will bring forward the moment at which we

:54:31.:54:34.

really need to decide whether we want to be part of the United

:54:34.:54:38.

States of Europe or if we want to have a referendum.

:54:38.:54:42.

Just time to explore the burning question of the day. Should we be

:54:42.:54:47.

eating more ugly vegetables? You might scoff, but one MP is so angry

:54:47.:54:50.

about the Maddox that it is challenged vegetables we throw away

:54:50.:54:52.

that she wants to do something about it. In about that we will

:54:52.:54:56.

talk to the lady in question. First, let's see what the public think.

:54:56.:55:03.

What do you think this is? Something you smoke? Some vegetable

:55:03.:55:11.

you cook? How I'd never seen it. don't know. A carrot? Parsnip, yes.

:55:11.:55:19.

Not a parsnip. It is a vegetable. Potato? It's not! It is! It is a

:55:19.:55:23.

beetroot. Beetroot? Yes. Would you buy a beetroot that looked like

:55:23.:55:31.

that? No. I don't know. Would you buy one that looked like that?

:55:31.:55:36.

not sure. Possibly not. I think I would, if I was going around and

:55:36.:55:40.

knew what I was buying. Does it matter what food looks like to you?

:55:40.:55:45.

It does help, I hate it covered in cellophane and everything. I like

:55:45.:55:48.

it to look fresh. Does it matter to you that what a vegetable looks

:55:48.:55:55.

like? Not really. After you have eaten it, it will not be much more

:55:55.:55:59.

than that, when it? A parsnip will stop would you buy something that

:55:59.:56:05.

looked like that? Maybe. It is too small for me. I prefer something

:56:05.:56:10.

bigger. It doesn't matter to you that it doesn't look nice?

:56:10.:56:16.

shape doesn't matter, just the size! De Laura Sandys is with us

:56:16.:56:24.

now, as his cookery writer Stevie Parle. People just don't want to

:56:24.:56:28.

eat ugly vegetables. I think they have been conditioned over many

:56:28.:56:33.

years. I think ugly food must be eaten. But there is a bigger issue

:56:34.:56:38.

about food prices rising. Over the next 20 years we are going to see a

:56:38.:56:42.

50% increase in food prices. We waste about �50 a month, each

:56:42.:56:47.

household. It cannot go on. There is really good food out there that

:56:47.:56:51.

is being sent off to a fruit juice, processed food, which is delicious

:56:51.:56:59.

to eat. Let's look at this tray. glorious selection! As a chef, do

:56:59.:57:04.

you know what all of these are? course. We have a little test. What

:57:04.:57:13.

is that? Beetroot. I cheated. I had to cut it open, just to see. Just

:57:13.:57:19.

to check. That one? That is also a beetroot. You would use any of

:57:19.:57:23.

these IND your cooking, but you're not serving them like that to the

:57:23.:57:28.

customer? I don't think I would even mind serving them like that.

:57:28.:57:33.

They are really quite beautiful. That is beautiful? Look at back-

:57:33.:57:40.

pass dead. A It's all right! It's all right? I am glad that Lisa is

:57:40.:57:47.

not here, this is what would be served in one of those profit-

:57:47.:57:52.

making Swedish schools! I've got a feeling that these days eating this

:57:52.:57:57.

kind of presentable vegetable is trendy. Farmers' markets, chefs,

:57:57.:58:05.

it's so much of the market? Farmers' markets, foraging, I think

:58:05.:58:09.

as a chef your priority is different. You're looking for taste.

:58:09.:58:13.

You're looking for something that looks like you didn't buy it in the

:58:13.:58:17.

supermarket. So, you are saying it is the fault of supermarkets? They

:58:18.:58:22.

have everything looking the same? It's right through the supply chain.

:58:22.:58:26.

Billions of pounds are wasted in food. We got to stop this. Value

:58:26.:58:30.

food, food has been too cheap and now we have to value it in a

:58:30.:58:37.

different way. We mustn't cut these beautiful, Oakley fruit and

:58:37.:58:45.

vegetables out. You can have it. Are you feeling a bit hungry?

:58:45.:58:49.

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