01/02/2012 Daily Politics


01/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn have live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 01/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Today's top story,

:00:42.:00:46.

you guessed it, stripped of his knighthood, but he was not the only

:00:46.:00:50.

man -- only guilty man, was he the victim of political opportunism? A

:00:50.:00:54.

7th defeat in the Lords for the welfare reform plans, will the

:00:54.:00:58.

Government stick to its guns at the legislation returns to the Commons?

:00:58.:01:01.

More trouble for the government over its plan for the NHS in

:01:02.:01:05.

England, ministers are publishing amendments to the Bill, a last-

:01:05.:01:08.

ditch attempt to win over its critics.

:01:08.:01:11.

Back in a day, you could murder and pillage and still keep your

:01:11.:01:14.

knighthood, though you might lose your head. We will look at the

:01:14.:01:23.

naughty knights of old. All at coming up in the next 90

:01:23.:01:26.

minutes of public service broadcasting at its finest! Its

:01:26.:01:31.

finest, I say that because of one of our guests. We will bring you

:01:31.:01:35.

live and uninterrupted Prime Minister's Questions at midday, and

:01:35.:01:39.

other public service. Joining us for the duration, Education

:01:39.:01:47.

Secretary Mr Stephen Twigg, he does not risk losing any titles! But the

:01:47.:01:53.

Honourable, yes, the Honourable, son of the life peer, Ed Vaizey.

:01:53.:02:00.

Just you be careful, you could lose that! Threats already! He is the

:02:00.:02:04.

media minister, we have to be nice to him. Sir Fred Goodwin is no more,

:02:04.:02:10.

it is just now main that plain Mr Fred Goodwin, but the decision to

:02:10.:02:14.

strip him has not met with universal approval. Neither from

:02:14.:02:18.

the City of politicians. We are joined by the Conservative MP for

:02:18.:02:24.

cities and Westminster, Mark Field. Was it the right decision? I think

:02:24.:02:28.

the night bird is a bit of a sideshow. The most important they

:02:28.:02:32.

are the rewards for failure. He was given it in 2004, and there was not

:02:32.:02:38.

a murmur of disapproval. By the time he got his penchant in 2009,

:02:38.:02:43.

we were aware that he had been overlooking a vast bank. -- pension.

:02:43.:02:50.

It is a much bigger question. I am slightly concerned that this witch-

:02:50.:02:53.

hunt against Fred Goodwin, he has not got too many friends, and most

:02:54.:02:57.

people come across him in business think he is having his comeuppance,

:02:57.:03:01.

but by the same token there was no question of illegality or

:03:01.:03:05.

criminality in what he did. He was monumentally incompetent, but to

:03:05.:03:08.

have a knighthood taken away on that basis seems to be said in a

:03:08.:03:11.

difficult precedent. We are a country that wants to be open for

:03:11.:03:16.

business. What message does it send, do you think? I think the genie is

:03:16.:03:20.

out of the bottle, and we will see in the next few months a number of

:03:20.:03:24.

other people in the corporate world suddenly coming under the kind of

:03:24.:03:29.

scrutiny that has been the case for Stephen Hester last weekend and

:03:29.:03:34.

Fred Goodwin over the last 24 hours, but I think that is quite dangerous.

:03:34.:03:41.

We are an open and outward-looking mercantile nation. This is the

:03:41.:03:49.

message is getting across that we are not open for business, that is

:03:49.:03:56.

bad news for this country. The Government was wrong to buy so much

:03:56.:04:00.

rhetoric and one man and one man only? As I say, this will be a

:04:00.:04:10.
:04:10.:04:18.

precedent that will be used for There was a campaign started by the

:04:18.:04:21.

Daily Mail that Fred Goodwin should be stripped Arcos night heard. It

:04:21.:04:27.

is unusual that this campaign did not have as much leverage in 2009.

:04:27.:04:30.

-- should be stripped of his knighthood. The government handed

:04:31.:04:40.
:04:41.:04:55.

out a very generous pension package It is easy for the political class

:04:55.:05:01.

to gang up on the city and bankers will our public enemy number one at

:05:01.:05:05.

the moment, but we have got to get our own house in order. We have a

:05:05.:05:08.

number of people in the House of Lords to have a lifelong seat in

:05:08.:05:12.

the legislature will have a time in prison over the expenses scandal.

:05:12.:05:15.

If we want to reserve the sanctity of the honours system, I hope David

:05:15.:05:20.

Cameron would get the four budget committee to look at the case of

:05:20.:05:25.

certain lords who are expense hurdlers who still have their

:05:25.:05:31.

honours very nicely intact. I am catching the whiff of a witch

:05:31.:05:35.

and beginning to build up! And we're just the kind of people to

:05:35.:05:43.

stoke the fires. A quiz, Stephen Twigg, who presented with a gift

:05:43.:05:49.

over Christmas 2007? Fred Goodwin. Yes, one year later, he presented

:05:49.:05:54.

them with the cards at RBS. Who said in 2004, you are the wealth

:05:54.:05:57.

creators, the women and men who can make our nation more successful,

:05:58.:06:04.

more prosperous, and let me thank Sir Fred Goodwin and RBS? I will

:06:04.:06:11.

hazard a guess, Gordon Brown. Correct! And I think you are going

:06:11.:06:14.

for the hat-trick here, who gave Fred Goodwin the Night Herd?

:06:14.:06:19.

think it might have been Tony Blair, the Queen! Well, it was the Queen

:06:19.:06:26.

he did it at the end. I think Alex Salmond was a supporter. We got it

:06:26.:06:29.

wrong, and Ed Miliband has been clear we should not have done what

:06:29.:06:35.

we did. I suggest to you, Minister, people do not care whether Fred

:06:35.:06:38.

Goodwin keeps his knighthood or not, but they want to see some of their

:06:38.:06:43.

money back and the banking system being put on a better basis than

:06:43.:06:47.

the Bank does not getting showed loads of money from dodgy bonuses.

:06:47.:06:52.

-- and bankers. He was an independent committee that took the

:06:52.:06:57.

decision, but it should not be a distraction. I do not think -- we

:06:57.:07:02.

should think that somehow we have moved on by removing his knighthood.

:07:02.:07:06.

We will move on when we have got responsible capitalism, when we get

:07:06.:07:10.

RBS back on its feet, when we put in place systems to try to ensure

:07:10.:07:14.

we do not have the kind of banking crisis that has put this in so much

:07:15.:07:17.

trouble. It is important to focus on the future and the changes we

:07:17.:07:23.

need to make. Are we not meant to think that the Prime Minister leant

:07:23.:07:28.

on this committee? It is very convenient, at a time when the

:07:28.:07:31.

government got itself into a complete Horlicks over Stephen as

:07:31.:07:35.

the's bonus, to have this sideshow. The Roman emperors were brilliant

:07:35.:07:41.

at this, they called it bread and circuses. The Prime Minister made

:07:41.:07:47.

his view clear, as has the leader of the opposition, most of the

:07:47.:07:51.

political classes. It is important there is public confidence in the

:07:51.:07:54.

system, and there was a sense that the public were angry about this.

:07:54.:07:58.

It is symbolic, not the main show in town where it came to improving

:07:58.:08:03.

the banking sector. Fred Goodwin is a finished character, finished, a

:08:03.:08:08.

pariah now. People throw stones at his house. He has got to keep his

:08:08.:08:13.

whereabouts secret now and so on. So why just pick on him? Dennis

:08:13.:08:17.

Stephenson, Lord Stephenson of HBOS, another bank that went down the

:08:17.:08:24.

Swanee. Why is he still a lot? Your Labour government gave Alan

:08:24.:08:30.

Greenspan a night heard. He presided over a system which

:08:30.:08:33.

supported derivatives, one of the things that brought the financial

:08:33.:08:38.

system to its knees. Do we go back to calling him Mr Alan Greenspan?

:08:38.:08:42.

There is a difficulty if we open up the floodgates. There is a

:08:42.:08:45.

particular set of circumstances following the FSA report which made

:08:45.:08:48.

this a proper decision. There may be some others which need to be

:08:48.:08:51.

looked at, but we do not get into a situation where dozens of people

:08:51.:08:56.

are having their honours removed. So you just want to be on him

:08:56.:09:00.

because he is a useful one to problem a cattle prod. The scale of

:09:00.:09:05.

what happened with RBS does justify this decision, but this is symbolic.

:09:05.:09:09.

We need to move on to the much bigger and more challenging

:09:09.:09:13.

territory are responsible capitalism, the phrase that Ed used.

:09:13.:09:17.

Hold on, Hector Sants, who appeared before a Commons select committee

:09:17.:09:21.

was to the executive of the FSA at a time when the ABN AMRO deal was

:09:21.:09:26.

allowed to go ahead. Indeed, he was part of the system that the Brood

:09:26.:09:32.

RBS upping its leverage to be able to buy ABN AMRO. -- that approved.

:09:32.:09:36.

He has apologised and is set to become deputy governor of the Bank

:09:36.:09:45.

of England. How does that work?! that a reward?! That is even worse!

:09:45.:09:49.

He did get a going-over, I read the sketches of the Treasury Select

:09:49.:09:55.

Committee. How I do think it is important... You can play a parlour

:09:55.:09:59.

game, this is in itself is a parlour game, when the government

:09:59.:10:01.

put up categories of people who should be stripped of their honours.

:10:01.:10:06.

I would draw a line under it, I hope the forfeiture committee, I

:10:06.:10:10.

hope these are exceptions rather than the rule, and I think, as

:10:10.:10:13.

Stephen said, Fred Goodwin was a particular figure who took a

:10:13.:10:18.

successful bank and ended up having to be bailed out to the tune of �45

:10:18.:10:21.

billion by the taxpayer. The other key point is that he got his

:10:21.:10:25.

knighthood for services to banking. It might have been a different

:10:25.:10:28.

question it he got it for philanthropy. Which Labour claimed

:10:28.:10:34.

it was! If you go back to the pub quiz, sitting in the pub say, what

:10:34.:10:38.

did you get it for, services to banking, I destroyed RBS, why have

:10:38.:10:44.

you still got it? The First Minister says that although he

:10:44.:10:48.

agrees that the decision, he wants to know of others involved in the

:10:48.:10:51.

financial collapse will have their honours reassessed, too. Mr Salmond

:10:51.:10:56.

has also said that he would be, in retrospect, do things differently,

:10:56.:11:01.

when asked about his support for Fred Goodwin. We have all said that.

:11:01.:11:03.

Everyone has a different view in hindsight.

:11:03.:11:09.

There was a fundamental policy, in 2005, in keeping with our quiz, who

:11:09.:11:16.

said the following? The new model we propose is quite different, any

:11:16.:11:19.

risk based approach, there is no inspection without justification.

:11:20.:11:24.

No form-filling without justification, no information

:11:24.:11:29.

requirements without justification, describing the new rules for the

:11:29.:11:34.

City, who said that? Probably Ed Balls. No, Gordon Brown.

:11:34.:11:38.

acknowledged that we got regulation wrong. It has been acknowledged by

:11:38.:11:42.

Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. Let's move on to how we can get it right

:11:42.:11:47.

in the future. If Why have you tried to drop Ed Balls in it?!

:11:47.:11:54.

Terrible! By had to get one wrong! Are you looking at me? Two years

:11:54.:11:59.

after, Gordon Brown said, he was complaining about the burdens and

:11:59.:12:06.

City regulations? I don't know. George Osborne. I would have got

:12:06.:12:10.

that one right. You are all in this together. We got that wrong on

:12:10.:12:14.

regulation, we acknowledge that, but last September Ed Miliband was

:12:14.:12:18.

criticised when he moved on to this territory and talked about the need

:12:18.:12:22.

for responsible capitalism. I think it is a real achievement of Ed

:12:22.:12:26.

Miliband's leadership that is a focus of public policy debate.

:12:26.:12:32.

Shall we leave it there? No, gone, do another question!

:12:33.:12:36.

MPs will be voting on the Welfare Reform Bill after Prime Minister's

:12:36.:12:39.

questions following a series of defeats inflicted by the House of

:12:39.:12:44.

Lords. Iain Duncan Smith and David Cameron are promising to fight all

:12:45.:12:49.

the way for the changes, including a �26,000 cap on benefits. They

:12:49.:12:53.

think it is popular, so they quite like the cash with the laws. The

:12:53.:12:57.

vote could be close depending on how many Lib Dem MPs decide to

:12:57.:13:00.

rebel. Andrew, for years politicians on

:13:00.:13:04.

all sides have talked to voters about cutting back on the welfare

:13:04.:13:09.

bill, which last year cost the taxpayer �192 billion. This

:13:09.:13:13.

Government has planned a wide- ranging set of reforms, including

:13:13.:13:19.

the eye-catching and popular cap on a household's benefit at �26,000.

:13:19.:13:21.

But the Government's plans for reform have suffered a total of

:13:21.:13:26.

seven defeats in the House of Lords, most recently last night. Labour

:13:26.:13:29.

peers helped inflict those defeats, but the party officially supports

:13:29.:13:33.

the benefits can in principle. With the government refusing to back

:13:33.:13:37.

down, Labour now says the cap should be set locally, higher in

:13:37.:13:41.

some areas, lower end others. The Welfare Reform Bill returns to the

:13:41.:13:46.

Commons today, where Liberal Democrat MPs will have to decide

:13:46.:13:50.

whether to rebel, as many of their colleagues did in the Lords. This

:13:50.:13:53.

morning the government appears to have offered concessions, including

:13:53.:13:57.

money to help families affected by the cap. But will it be enough?

:13:57.:14:03.

We can find out, we enjoyed by Liberal Democrat per year Mike

:14:03.:14:07.

German. Ed Vaizey, there is some transitional relief to describe

:14:07.:14:12.

this. We have any idea how much that will cost? If well, the point

:14:13.:14:19.

about welfare reform is that they will make savings on something like

:14:19.:14:24.

�1.5 billion a year. The BL package that we will be debating in the

:14:24.:14:29.

House of Commons is about 1.5 billion. -- the whole package. They

:14:29.:14:33.

are actually quite small savings when you consider the huge size of

:14:33.:14:37.

the welfare bill. It is very difficult. We have made these

:14:37.:14:40.

reforms, and I fully support them, but they have caused controversy,

:14:40.:14:44.

and we have been defeated in House of Lords. It shows the massive

:14:44.:14:49.

scale of the task when you try to reform welfare. You do it

:14:49.:14:52.

incrementally, shave a bit off, and opinion are trying to reduce the

:14:52.:14:57.

rate of growth of the welfare bill, but even when you take these

:14:57.:15:00.

measures, they caused a stormy debate. I think we have got a long

:15:00.:15:05.

way to go in reforming welfare, but we have got to have a consensus

:15:05.:15:09.

that it is getting out of control. I mean, Liam Byrne, the Labour

:15:09.:15:12.

spokesman, wrote an article saying that Beveridge would look on these

:15:13.:15:22.
:15:23.:15:28.

It's your policy now to have a different cap depending on where

:15:28.:15:35.

you live s that correct? Yes. would you contemplate a higher cap

:15:35.:15:38.

for for London? London housing costs is probably the key feature

:15:38.:15:44.

of this debate. I think the like hihood is if you had ditch local

:15:44.:15:47.

caps in the most expensive parts of the country the caps would be

:15:47.:15:50.

higher than in other parts of the country. If I'm on average wage, in

:15:50.:15:54.

other words, people going out to work can't afford to live in

:15:54.:15:57.

central London, why should people on welfare be able to live in

:15:57.:16:00.

central London? The key thing here is the Government's trying to save

:16:00.:16:04.

money. Ed has said that. What is the answer to the question? I am

:16:04.:16:08.

starting to answer the question. What the department of local

:16:08.:16:11.

Government have said is there might be a net cost from introducing a

:16:11.:16:15.

single benefit cap for the whole country, because of the costs of

:16:15.:16:17.

temporary accommodation if people are forced out of their homes. If

:16:17.:16:20.

we are trying to save money, and we support trying to save money, we

:16:20.:16:24.

have got to do this in an intelligent way, that's why our

:16:24.:16:27.

amendment today is saying it should be an independent body that decides

:16:27.:16:32.

on these local caps as to what they should be. But Labour would

:16:32.:16:35.

contemplate or tolerate a system where maybe you had, let's pluck

:16:35.:16:40.

figures out of the air, �32,000 cap for London, which would mean you

:16:40.:16:46.

would have to earn �45,000 to take home �32,000, that's a big salary,

:16:46.:16:52.

even by London terms, but maybe a �16,000 cap in Liverpool? You would

:16:52.:16:56.

be happy with regional differences like that? There's nothing new

:16:56.:16:59.

about regional and indeed local differences in terms of housing

:16:59.:17:03.

benefits. We have local housing allowances in the system at the

:17:03.:17:06.

moment. We are responding to what we stheu a rushed reform from the

:17:06.:17:10.

Government which could have some appalling consequences in terms of

:17:10.:17:13.

homelessness and more families moving into temporary accommodation,

:17:13.:17:16.

that's why we are making this proposal. Give than housing costs

:17:16.:17:20.

are the thing that vary most from region to region, Ed Vaizey, what

:17:20.:17:25.

would be wrong with a regional based cap? Into it would add a

:17:25.:17:29.

layer of complexity. It's still I think a generous cap, you can still

:17:29.:17:34.

live in London on �1,200 a month. So I think the cap is relatively

:17:34.:17:38.

generous and there are lots of important exceptions for different

:17:38.:17:41.

categories of people, so it's a very straightforward and simple

:17:41.:17:44.

reform. I hear what Stephen says, it's interesting the the unions

:17:44.:17:48.

have always opposed things like regional pay. There hasn't been an

:17:48.:17:52.

- the Labour Party to recognise there are Reg regional differences

:17:52.:17:55.

in living standards, if you start a debate about how we take into

:17:55.:18:01.

account... The principle of London public sector workers earning more

:18:01.:18:05.

has been established in the system and accepted. Let me bring in Mike

:18:05.:18:12.

German. Has Government done enough to asaupblg rebels? On the cap it

:18:12.:18:15.

certainly has. We will see a figure which is considerable about the

:18:15.:18:18.

amount of money that's going to be put in to help people who are in

:18:18.:18:21.

the most difficult circumstances, because clearly they're going to be

:18:21.:18:25.

people trapped by circumstances beyond their control. This is the

:18:25.:18:28.

transitional arrangement. First of all, there's money and I understand

:18:28.:18:31.

it's a substantial amount of money, we are not talking about just five

:18:31.:18:34.

or six million, talking about tens, maybe hundreds of millions of

:18:34.:18:40.

pounds over a period of time. on, the cap itself only says �275

:18:40.:18:44.

million, why would you end up spending more? Over a period of

:18:44.:18:49.

time. Shoug the transition going to be? The transition is as people

:18:49.:18:54.

need to to adjust. There's one other group of people, people lose

:18:54.:18:58.

their jobs who will face a period of time to readjust, we don't want

:18:58.:19:02.

to see them immediately trapped by the cap, give them time to get back

:19:02.:19:05.

into work and the Government has to give them nine months, which is

:19:05.:19:08.

beyond what the average is for people to get back into jobs. There

:19:08.:19:11.

are things that have been done and the Government has done enough I

:19:11.:19:14.

think for my colleagues to be able to support this as it goes through

:19:14.:19:18.

tonight. Sounds like it's hardly worth the candle. It's going to

:19:18.:19:23.

take years and cost hundreds of millions when you are only going to

:19:23.:19:30.

save 275. You have to start somewhere. By spending more?! He's

:19:30.:19:34.

just managed to water it down. These are relatively modest reforms,

:19:34.:19:38.

but they are long overdue and again if you have - to keep coming back

:19:38.:19:42.

to the principle, which all of us have to decide based on our income

:19:42.:19:49.

where we live, how we will live. The great prize in all this is the

:19:49.:19:53.

bit of the Bill going through which allows people to earn more money

:19:53.:19:58.

and not to lose all their benefits, which is stop people from going

:19:58.:20:02.

back to work. It's actually a major reform and we got the most complex

:20:02.:20:05.

benefits structure in the whole of the western world and we are trying

:20:05.:20:09.

to reform all that and make it sense of it, that's happening now.

:20:09.:20:13.

And that part of the Bill has gone through both the Commons and the

:20:13.:20:16.

Lords and thankfully it will mean after today it will mean that we

:20:16.:20:19.

will be able to put that into practice, roll it out for people so

:20:19.:20:23.

whatever you do you can get back to work and there will always be a

:20:23.:20:26.

chance of earning more money. wasn't only the cap the Lords

:20:26.:20:30.

defeated the Government on a series of other amendments voted on today,

:20:30.:20:33.

opportunities to protect cancer patients from cuts, opportunities

:20:33.:20:37.

to protect disabled children from cuts. These are save thags are very,

:20:37.:20:40.

very modest and there is a basic point of decency here where the

:20:40.:20:45.

Lords are standing up for what most British people... Funnily enough, I

:20:45.:20:48.

received this morning from Macmillan cancer care, the people

:20:48.:20:53.

who have been behind this pressure, a note of agreement, they say we

:20:53.:20:56.

now find we can work with the Government on proposals, we have

:20:56.:21:01.

reached... We quoted Macmillan cancer care on this programme.

:21:01.:21:08.

was you that done it, Andrew. did point out... It's also worth

:21:08.:21:11.

pointing out, when Stephen says the House of Lords is standing up for

:21:11.:21:14.

decency and truth a lot of Labour peers rebelled against their

:21:14.:21:18.

leadership. There is a consensus, although Stephen tries to hide it

:21:18.:21:24.

in terms of jumping on a band wagon, there are important reforms. And

:21:24.:21:29.

when you use language like protecting cancer patients you are

:21:29.:21:33.

means testing people and reviewing benefits. You are - you don't want

:21:33.:21:37.

to be associated with bankers' bonuses, you don't want to be

:21:37.:21:42.

associated with people who can make more on welfare than people on the

:21:42.:21:46.

average wage and people earning �35,000, just as bankers are

:21:46.:21:49.

difficult for the Conservatives, this is difficult because we know

:21:49.:21:53.

from the polls Labour voters like these changes. Of course it's

:21:53.:21:56.

difficult for us, and we're trying to strike the balance between

:21:56.:21:59.

ensuring that work pays, which is why we support the principle of a

:21:59.:22:03.

cap, but recognising that for many families in high cost areas the cap

:22:03.:22:08.

will be a problem. In the end the best solution is to create jobs.

:22:08.:22:13.

course. So the rebellion is over? Wye have thought this Bill will see

:22:13.:22:18.

the light of day. It's in a much better place than twhepb started,

:22:18.:22:21.

that will mean... Down to the Lords? The Lords and the Commons,

:22:21.:22:24.

there have been changes as well by the way which the Government has

:22:24.:22:29.

put forward as a result of pressure put on by its own backbenchers.

:22:29.:22:33.

have often wanted to say that, in a much better place than when we

:22:33.:22:36.

started! It was you that done it on the

:22:36.:22:39.

cancer care, I will remember that. We even take the credit, but we

:22:39.:22:43.

don't deserve it. Regular viewers will know that the Daily Politics

:22:43.:22:49.

mug, here it is, is a prized possession. We don't give these out

:22:49.:22:56.

to any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Ed or Steve. Not like knighthoods

:22:56.:23:02.

and we never ask for them back! If you want to join Britain's most

:23:02.:23:08.

exclusive club you will just going to have to enter our Guest the --

:23:08.:23:11.

Guess the Year competition. Let's see if you can remember when this

:23:11.:23:21.
:23:21.:23:31.

# This is the time, time for action Housewives came to their senses,

:23:31.:23:33.

the panic buying stopped which means there should be enough food

:23:33.:23:43.
:23:43.:23:53.

After three years in jail Mr Stonehouse sprinted towards the car

:23:53.:24:03.
:24:03.:24:29.

And to be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug send

:24:29.:24:34.

your answer to our special e-mail address.

:24:34.:24:42.

You can see the full terms and conditions on our website.

:24:42.:24:46.

Coming up to midday here, let's look at Big Ben. There it is. I

:24:46.:24:54.

know it's not Big Ben, but some mistakes are beyond correction!

:24:54.:24:58.

Just take it like that. Whatever that clock is, it can only mean one

:24:58.:25:02.

thing, Prime Ministers questions is on the way it means that Nick

:25:02.:25:12.
:25:12.:25:13.

Robinson is with us. Nick... Children in the studio! I said it

:25:13.:25:17.

leans to the north-west. Have you quite finished?! Let's get on with

:25:17.:25:21.

serious matters. Mr Miliband did did rather well

:25:21.:25:23.

yesterday when the Prime Minister made his statement on Europe. He is

:25:23.:25:28.

coming off a high. He is, what is intriguing, he began the year with

:25:28.:25:33.

these dreadful write-ups, it was really that PMQs before Christmas

:25:33.:25:36.

in which he had done so badly and the polls were bad and now he is on

:25:36.:25:42.

a bit of a high. Not just because his call for a vote on Hester's pay,

:25:42.:25:46.

the chief executive of the RBS, was cited by RBS as the reason why

:25:46.:25:50.

Stephen Hester was turning it down, but then he discovered a new kind

:25:50.:25:53.

of way of dealing with David Cameron yesterday, which is

:25:53.:25:58.

interesting to see if he try it is today, mockery. Up until now it

:25:58.:26:02.

seems to me, he has deployed a level of outrage which frankly just

:26:02.:26:06.

bounces off David Cameron, much of the time. But the fun he had

:26:06.:26:10.

yesterday and, frankly, the Labour whips got their act together, was

:26:10.:26:16.

to mock David Cameron for what he calls a phantom veto on the EU. He

:26:16.:26:19.

knew the sceptics were uncomfortable and he got his own

:26:19.:26:24.

side together to laugh at the Prime Minister. There was much

:26:24.:26:27.

synchronised laughing from the Labour benches yesterday. Let's

:26:27.:26:30.

look at what Nick has been talking about, this is from yesterday

:26:30.:26:33.

afternoon. Mr Speaker, having heard the Prime

:26:33.:26:38.

Minister's statement on Europe, the whole House now knows the truth,

:26:38.:26:43.

that with this Prime Minister a veto is not for life, it's just for

:26:43.:26:53.
:26:53.:26:54.

Christmas. LAUGHTER. Calm down, calm down,

:26:54.:27:01.

dear. He said it was a real veto on the use of European institutions

:27:01.:27:06.

and his backbenchers believed him. Mr Speaker, even his cabinet

:27:06.:27:10.

believed him. It was funny, but I think the

:27:10.:27:14.

Labour whips were pumping in some laughing gas just to keep it going

:27:14.:27:19.

on the backbenches. What does he go on today, probably can't go on

:27:19.:27:26.

Europe again, that was done yesterday? He is likely to surf off

:27:26.:27:30.

this wave over bankers' bonuses. I would imagine the tone he struck

:27:30.:27:34.

yesterday after the removal of Fred Goodwin's knighthood, which is fine

:27:34.:27:38.

but now what are you going to do, is what he will want to pursue, get

:27:38.:27:43.

some credit for the fact Stephen Hester lost his bonus, he will want

:27:43.:27:46.

to accuse the Prime Minister of failing to deal with that bonus and

:27:46.:27:49.

want to deal with it. He might have another go at health, I only say

:27:49.:27:52.

that because he asked three questions on health last week. The

:27:52.:27:56.

reason he did it actually is that he was aware that the Royal

:27:56.:28:00.

colleges at the time were trying to co-ordinate a letter on protest

:28:00.:28:02.

against the health Bill, actually there were too many disagreements

:28:03.:28:06.

at the top level. Between the colleges. They couldn't agree, some

:28:06.:28:11.

wanted to send a militant letter, others said that they wanted still

:28:11.:28:13.

to work with the Government to improve it. So he didn't have a

:28:13.:28:17.

kind of platform to go on. But he will try again because he knows

:28:17.:28:21.

there is a lot of concern about the Bill, he knows it's coming back to

:28:21.:28:23.

the House. But the interesting thing is just one last thought,

:28:23.:28:28.

when we say the hraft certificate co-ordinated, -- laughter is co-

:28:28.:28:31.

ordinated, don't forget who Iain Duncan Smith said to us in this

:28:31.:28:34.

studio, former leader of the opposition, said you have to as a

:28:34.:28:38.

leader of the opposition, have co- ordinated action by your whips. We

:28:38.:28:42.

can kind of mock it, we can say isn't it pathetic. All ask the same

:28:42.:28:46.

question, all laugh at the same joke, but you are on your own there.

:28:46.:28:50.

The party is by definition bigger than you, more resource, if you

:28:50.:28:55.

don't operate as an opposition together, you are stuffed. I won

:28:55.:29:00.

ter too, whether the Commons will raise itself above its normal

:29:00.:29:04.

parochial concerns and do anything, will anybody raise the issue of

:29:04.:29:10.

this secret NATO report which the BBC News revealed last night, must

:29:10.:29:16.

have been 3.00am, this report done by interviewing 27,000 Afghans,

:29:16.:29:21.

research all over the place, shows not only the Pakistan military and

:29:21.:29:24.

intelligence is supporting the Taliban, which we knew, but NATO

:29:24.:29:29.

confirm, the Afghan army, the Afghan police, local Afghans are

:29:29.:29:35.

all supporting the Taliban, as well now. That brings into question ten

:29:35.:29:39.

years of Labour and Conservative foreign policy. The thing you have

:29:39.:29:43.

noted a lot of times on this programme is how rarely Afghanistan

:29:43.:29:47.

has been properly debated. 9,000 troops there. So will someone raise

:29:47.:29:51.

it, who knows? The truth is it is not given the significance in the

:29:51.:29:54.

House of Commons that you might think, people are nervous of

:29:54.:29:57.

questioning the mission, but there are now real nerves at the top that

:29:57.:30:04.

Obama wants out quick for electoral reasons. Mr Sarkozy. And David

:30:04.:30:08.

Cameron finds himself in the unusual position of saying hold on,

:30:08.:30:12.

let's not get out too quickly here. And yet now with this report

:30:12.:30:15.

suggesting that we are fighting, not just the Taliban, but as it

:30:15.:30:20.

were the organised and supported and financed forces in part of the

:30:20.:30:23.

Pakistani intelligence services. heard this morning the Taliban in

:30:23.:30:27.

parts of Afghanistan have a helpline in place, that the Taliban

:30:27.:30:31.

are basically running the areas, but if any Taliban leaders gets out

:30:31.:30:37.

of line the local Afghan peasant can call the local leadership and

:30:37.:30:40.

say your Guy's out of order here and they can sort him out T would

:30:40.:30:46.

seem from that NATO report that the moment we, the NATO allies, leave

:30:46.:30:52.

they're in. All that blood and treasure that's been spent could

:30:52.:30:57.

end up for nought. The one person who has constantly talked about

:30:57.:31:01.

this is David Miliband. He has constantly made the case in office

:31:01.:31:05.

and now out, that because of what you are saying, the only thing you

:31:05.:31:09.

can do is seek some political settlement with the Taliban and now

:31:09.:31:15.

we know there were talks, Karzai came here to talk about that, there

:31:15.:31:19.

have been talks with the Taliban and Afghan Government, but there is

:31:19.:31:29.
:31:29.:31:34.

an argument that is the only way The whole house were wants to join

:31:34.:31:41.

me in sending our condolences to the family's of the servicemen,

:31:41.:31:47.

dedicated soldiers who were highly respected by their colleagues for

:31:47.:31:50.

their selfless service which will never be forgotten by our country.

:31:50.:31:53.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others,

:31:53.:31:56.

and in addition to my duties in his as I will have further such

:31:56.:32:04.

meetings later today. Paul Farrelly. Can I associate myself and the

:32:04.:32:08.

whole house with a Prime Minister's remarks? Those brave soldiers have

:32:08.:32:11.

been the ultimate sacrifice in the service of their country. In the

:32:11.:32:15.

past week, chief constables in England and Wales have warned that

:32:15.:32:19.

policing is on a cliff-edge and facing a watershed moment as

:32:19.:32:22.

numbers fall to their lowest in a decade. My paws in Staffordshire is

:32:23.:32:27.

cutting hundreds of police officers and staff. The Prime Minister said

:32:27.:32:30.

in the debates before the election, we are not seeing enough police on

:32:30.:32:34.

the streets, we are not catching up burglars, we are not convicting

:32:34.:32:41.

enough. How does the Prime Minister's rhetoric square with the

:32:41.:32:46.

reality of frontline policing now? Well, the fact is the percentage of

:32:47.:32:52.

officers on the front line has actually increased. What we

:32:52.:32:57.

inherited... We inherited a situation... We inherited a

:32:57.:33:00.

situation where there were 6,000 uniformed officers performing back

:33:00.:33:05.

office roles in the police. Now, we have had to make difficult spending

:33:05.:33:09.

reductions, but I think if he listens to his front bench, he will

:33:09.:33:14.

find out they support the cuts and the pay freeze, and they even so

:33:14.:33:19.

strongly support our police commissioners that droves of Len

:33:19.:33:27.

MPs are going to try to become man! Alok Sharma. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:33:27.:33:31.

Tonight his house as an historic vote on other households on benefit

:33:31.:33:36.

should be able to receive more than ourselves in work. Does the Prime

:33:36.:33:39.

Minister agree with me that the introduction of a benefits captured

:33:39.:33:45.

have the support of the whole house? Well, I think my honourable

:33:45.:33:50.

friend is entirely right. The cap is right and there. It is right to

:33:50.:33:55.

say that you should not get more than �26,000 per year in benefits,

:33:55.:33:59.

�500 per week, and it is fair because we are introducing a new

:33:59.:34:02.

principle in our welfare system that an able-bodied family that can

:34:03.:34:06.

work should not get more in benefits than the average family

:34:06.:34:12.

gets from work. The leader of the party opposite has said he is not

:34:12.:34:16.

against a cap in principle. Tonight when it will more find out whether

:34:16.:34:26.
:34:26.:34:28.

he is in favour of a cap in Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime

:34:28.:34:35.

Minister in paying tribute to the signaller Ian Jones from 20th

:34:35.:34:38.

Armoured Brigade headquarters signals squadron and Lance Corporal

:34:39.:34:42.

attached to 1st Battalion the auction regiment? Both men showed

:34:42.:34:46.

exceptional courage and bravery and our thoughts are with their family

:34:46.:34:52.

and friends. Before the election, legislation was passed by

:34:52.:34:57.

Parliament with cross-party support to make all banks disclose how many

:34:57.:35:01.

people earn over �1 million, but it needs the government to trigger the

:35:01.:35:06.

change. Will the Prime Minister go ahead and do it? We now have the

:35:06.:35:11.

toughest and most transparent regime are of any major financial

:35:11.:35:16.

centre in the world. For the first time, banks are going to publish

:35:16.:35:21.

the paper are the top eight executors. That never happened in

:35:21.:35:27.

13 years of a Labour government. On the specific Walker reforms, Walker

:35:27.:35:30.

himself said that it should be done at the same time in all countries

:35:30.:35:36.

across the European Union. Miliband! A Mr Speaker, exactly

:35:36.:35:45.

what we would expect, no leadership on top pay from the Prime Minister.

:35:45.:35:49.

In case he had not... In case he had not heard the news, they are

:35:49.:35:54.

more than eight people earning over �1 million at our banks. What did

:35:54.:36:01.

the Chancellor say in opposition? He said this. We... I think the

:36:01.:36:03.

honourable gentleman opposite should listen to what the

:36:03.:36:08.

Chancellor said in opposition. He said this. We support proposals to

:36:08.:36:13.

make these banks disclose the number of their employees who are

:36:13.:36:18.

on high salaries. Mr Speaker, he even called for them to publish

:36:18.:36:27.

their names! It is another broken promise from this Government. I

:36:27.:36:31.

asked in the question, and again, the legislation is on the books, it

:36:31.:36:36.

is ready to go, it had all-party support. Why doesn't he make it

:36:36.:36:42.

happen? We are listening to the advice of the man who produced the

:36:42.:36:45.

report for the last Labour government! Now, he asks about the

:36:45.:36:50.

number of people getting �1 million bonuses. Let me remind him of this,

:36:50.:36:55.

it was the last Labour government, when he was in the Cabinet, that I

:36:55.:37:05.
:37:05.:37:05.

read an RBS bonus ball of �1.3 billion! Literally hundreds of

:37:05.:37:11.

people... Literally hundreds of people were getting �1 million

:37:11.:37:13.

bonuses, and he signed it off. The issue for the honourable gentleman

:37:13.:37:18.

is why he is in favour of our things he never did in government?

:37:18.:37:24.

Some might call it opposition, some might call it hypocrisy! This is

:37:24.:37:27.

bigger, I will tell him what hypocrisy is. It is saying he is

:37:27.:37:33.

going to start a �1 million bonus to Stephen Hester and then nodding

:37:33.:37:38.

it through. -- Stop. I have his say to him, I have to say to him, I

:37:38.:37:42.

think we have heard it all, because he says that the class war against

:37:42.:37:46.

the bankers is going to be led by him and his cabinet are

:37:46.:37:52.

millionaires. I do not think it is going to wash, frankly. Let me as

:37:52.:37:58.

Tim... Now, let me ask him about another simple proposal. He had no

:37:58.:38:02.

answer on transparency. Does he agree with me that to bring a dose

:38:02.:38:06.

of realism to the decisions about top pay, they should be an ordinary

:38:06.:38:11.

employee on every page committee so that people on a huge salary at

:38:11.:38:14.

least have to look one of their employees in the eye and justify

:38:14.:38:20.

it? Order! The Prime Minister will know that the use of the word

:38:20.:38:25.

hypocrisy in relation to one individual member is not

:38:25.:38:29.

parliamentary, therefore... Order! Just before the Prime Minister

:38:29.:38:32.

begins his reply, I would ask into the draw that turns straight away.

:38:32.:38:36.

I am very happy to do that, this has begun. I think it is just

:38:36.:38:41.

because we are expected to listen to the people who presided over the

:38:41.:38:45.

biggest banking and financial disaster in our history, and it is

:38:45.:38:50.

not as if they had nothing to do with it! One of them was the city

:38:50.:38:53.

minister and the other one was sitting in the Treasury. I have to

:38:53.:39:00.

ask, who failed to regulate the banks? Labour! Who gave us boom and

:39:00.:39:04.

bust? Labour! Who was it who failed to fix the roof when the sun was

:39:04.:39:08.

shining? Labour! Who presided over a multi-million-pound bonuses and

:39:09.:39:14.

did nothing? Labour! I have looked very carefully at his propositions.

:39:14.:39:18.

I do not think it is practical to do what he is suggesting. It breaks

:39:18.:39:21.

an important principle of not having people on a remuneration

:39:21.:39:25.

committee who have their own pay determined, so I do not think it is

:39:25.:39:29.

the right way forward. The house may be interested to know, because

:39:29.:39:34.

I have looked carefully at all his proposals, he also proposed in

:39:34.:39:38.

Glasgow to ban performance-related pay in all but the most exceptional

:39:38.:39:42.

circumstances. I think that is completely wrong. There are people

:39:42.:39:46.

working in offices and factories and shops around the country who

:39:46.:39:49.

want poor performance related pay, and if they meet some targets, they

:39:50.:39:54.

would like to have a bonus at the end of the year. That is pro

:39:54.:39:57.

aspiration, doing the right thing for our family, and it shows he has

:39:57.:40:02.

not got a clue how to run an economy. Mr Speaker, now we know

:40:02.:40:07.

where the Prime Minister's stance. No to transparency, no to an

:40:07.:40:10.

employee on the remuneration committee, and what was the

:40:10.:40:13.

Chancellor doing last week when supposedly cracking down on top

:40:13.:40:16.

pay? He was going to Davos to tell the business community to lobby for

:40:16.:40:23.

a reduction in the top rate of income tax! We know the truth. We

:40:23.:40:28.

know the truth. When it comes to top pay, his government and this

:40:28.:40:34.

Prime Minister are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

:40:34.:40:39.

Mr Speaker, I do not know what the word is for criticising someone who

:40:39.:40:49.
:40:49.:40:55.

went to Davos when he went to Davos I think... I think the word Peter

:40:55.:41:01.

Mandelson used when he was in Davos was struggling! The Prime Minister

:41:01.:41:05.

is exceptionally well educated, and I'm sure he has got a very full

:41:05.:41:10.

vocabulary and can make proper use of it. Mr David Davis. Yesterday it

:41:10.:41:15.

was announced that the French company that sold one the first

:41:15.:41:21.

round of a contest for the 10 billion Biden contract with India.

:41:21.:41:24.

That is disastrous news for thousands of workers up and down

:41:24.:41:28.

the country, particularly in my constituency. Given the long

:41:28.:41:31.

relationship between India and Britain, given the fact that we

:41:31.:41:36.

give many times more aid to India and France ever did, would he

:41:36.:41:40.

engage himself and the full force of the government in attempting to

:41:40.:41:45.

reverse his decision? I would do everything I can, as I have already,

:41:45.:41:49.

to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon, because it is such a good

:41:49.:41:53.

aircraft. The decision is disappointing, but it is about to

:41:53.:41:57.

the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and asked to enter

:41:57.:42:01.

into further negotiations. They have not awarded the contract. I

:42:01.:42:05.

would say to my honourable friend, who cares deeply about the people

:42:05.:42:08.

in his constituency, we do not expect any jobless as stemming from

:42:08.:42:15.

this decision, and it doesn't rule out A iPhone 4 India. -- job losses.

:42:15.:42:21.

This is a superb aircraft man we will encourage the Indians to take

:42:21.:42:27.

that look. -- that view. The Deputy Prime Minister said that means-

:42:27.:42:31.

testing may be brought in for pensioners' bus passes. Was he

:42:31.:42:34.

speaking for the government, as does the Prime Minister think that

:42:34.:42:39.

is fair? I made a very clear commitment at the time of the last

:42:39.:42:44.

election about pension and bus passes, about winter fuel payments,

:42:44.:42:48.

apart free television licences, and we are keeping all those promises.

:42:48.:42:54.

Order! The house must come down. I want to hear Penny Mordaunt. If a

:42:54.:42:59.

local supermarket closes down, another quickly takes its place. If

:42:59.:43:02.

Portsmouth Football Club closes down, the Pompey fans will not be

:43:02.:43:05.

content with buying a season ticket from Southampton. Will the Prime

:43:05.:43:12.

Minister at his boys to mind in club so it recoups the tax it is

:43:12.:43:15.

owed that our club survives and the fans have their chance to become

:43:15.:43:21.

its owners? I will certainly do that, and acting she is absolutely

:43:21.:43:25.

right to raise this issue. Knowing what to Pompey fans, I can

:43:25.:43:28.

understand. Their idea that they could support Southampton is

:43:28.:43:32.

completely incredible, and we must do everything we can to keep this

:43:32.:43:39.

friendly rivalry going. Mr Ed Miliband! Mr Speaker, this week,

:43:39.:43:42.

this week the British Medical Journal, the Health Service Journal

:43:42.:43:47.

and Nursing Times published a joint editorial that said, and I quote,

:43:47.:43:52.

the Prime Minister's reorganisation has destabilised and damaged one of

:43:52.:43:54.

this country's greatest achievements, a system that

:43:54.:43:58.

embodies social justice and has delivered a widespread patient

:43:58.:44:01.

satisfaction, public support and value for money. We must make sure

:44:01.:44:07.

that nothing like this ever happens again. Mr Speaker, why does the

:44:07.:44:11.

Prime Minister think he has so comprehensively lost the medical

:44:11.:44:16.

profession's Trust? I noticed he does not run on to raise the well-

:44:16.:44:20.

backed cap today! Peel up and down the country will recognise that. --

:44:20.:44:25.

he does not want to raise the welfare cap. There are tens of

:44:25.:44:28.

thousands of General Practitioners up and down the country who are

:44:28.:44:31.

implementing our reforms because they once decisions made by doctors,

:44:31.:44:35.

not bureaucrats. They want to see health and social care brought

:44:35.:44:39.

together, and they want to put the patient in the driving seat. What I

:44:39.:44:42.

would say to him is look at what is happening in the health service,

:44:42.:44:47.

waiting times are down, infection rates are down, the number of

:44:47.:44:51.

people in mixed sex wards that we put up with for 13 years and a

:44:51.:44:56.

Labour is down by 94%. He should be praising the good things that are

:44:56.:44:59.

happening in the health service, rather than having his policy,

:44:59.:45:04.

which is to say an increase in NHS resources is irresponsible. That is

:45:04.:45:07.

their position. This government is putting the money in and getting

:45:07.:45:17.

Every time he talks about the NHS he just shows how out of touch he

:45:17.:45:21.

is with what is happening on the ground. Let me now tell him who is

:45:21.:45:26.

lined up against this Bill. 98% of GPs against the Bill. The Royal

:45:26.:45:30.

College of Nursing against the Bill. The Royal College of Midwives

:45:30.:45:34.

against the Bill. The Royal College of Radiologists against the Bill.

:45:34.:45:38.

The British Medical Association against the Bill. The Patients'

:45:38.:45:45.

Association against the Bill. Mr Speaker, he knows in his heart of

:45:45.:45:49.

hearts this Bill is a disaster. Now there were rumours last week that

:45:49.:45:54.

he was considering dropping the Bill. He has a choice, he can carry

:45:54.:45:58.

on regardless, or he can listen to the public and the professions,

:45:58.:46:06.

will he now do the right thing and drop this unwanted Bill?

:46:06.:46:12.

If you are trying to bring in to a public service choice, competition,

:46:12.:46:16.

transparency, proper results and publication of results, you will

:46:16.:46:20.

always find that there will be objections. The question is, is it

:46:20.:46:24.

going to improve patient care and the running of the health service?

:46:24.:46:29.

I apologise for interrupting, the Prime Minister's answer must be

:46:29.:46:33.

heard. Order! There is excessive noise on both sides. Members must

:46:33.:46:37.

calm down, let's hear the Prime Minister's answer. Let me tell him

:46:37.:46:46.

something that Tony Blair once wrote about the process of reform.

:46:46.:46:52.

I know, there is a man who knows a thing about bonuses and pay. He

:46:52.:46:59.

said this: Listen, listen! It is an important lesson in the progress of

:46:59.:47:04.

reform, changes proposed, it is announced as a disaster. It

:47:04.:47:07.

preseeds with vast opposition, it is unpopular, it comes about.

:47:07.:47:13.

Within a short space of time it is as if it has always been so. The

:47:13.:47:17.

lessen is instructive f you thing is a change is right, go with it.

:47:17.:47:21.

The opposition is inevitable, but it is rarely unbeatable. Someone

:47:21.:47:29.

who knew a thing or two about reform. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:47:29.:47:35.

Order!. The honourable member will be heard. Thank you, Mr Speaker. A

:47:35.:47:40.

year ago I asked the Prime Minister for help when there was the

:47:40.:47:46.

announcement of the Pfizer closure in Sandwich, would the Prime

:47:46.:47:48.

Minister agree that the support and help from his Ministers that's

:47:48.:47:54.

delivered us an enterprise zone and �40 million for jobs in east Kent

:47:54.:48:01.

ensures that we are still a leading centre for life sciences? I am

:48:01.:48:05.

delighted with what the honourable lady says. It was a tough and

:48:05.:48:08.

difficult time when they made that decision, but I think it's shown

:48:08.:48:12.

that Government and industry and local people in organisations

:48:12.:48:15.

coming together, we have been able to keep a lot of jobs and a lot of

:48:15.:48:18.

investment and research and development in that area. What Wye

:48:18.:48:24.

say to all pharmaceutical companies is this Government has the patent

:48:24.:48:27.

box, if you invent things in this country and develop them in this

:48:27.:48:31.

country you only pay a 10% corporation tax rate, that enables

:48:31.:48:36.

us to say to pharmaceutical ap -- companies all over the world, come

:48:36.:48:41.

and invest in Britain. This week temperatures across Britain have

:48:42.:48:45.

dropped drastically and last winter 200 people died every day from

:48:46.:48:50.

preventable cold weather-related illnesses, but in in Barnsley,

:48:50.:48:53.

instead of being able to focus resource on promoting the dangers

:48:53.:48:58.

of cold weather, we have had to set aside �17 million for an

:48:58.:49:01.

undemocratic, top-down reorganisation of the NHS. Can the

:49:01.:49:05.

Prime Minister tell my constituents if this really is a responsible use

:49:05.:49:10.

of public money? First of all, what I would say to

:49:10.:49:13.

him and everyone in Barnsley, this Government has been able to keep

:49:13.:49:16.

higher level of cold weather payments introduced before the

:49:16.:49:19.

election and we have kept them for all years and that will be a real

:49:19.:49:23.

help along with the winter fuel allowance. What I would say about

:49:23.:49:27.

the NHS is to simply look at the figures, if you look since the

:49:27.:49:31.

election there are 4,000 more doctors working in our NHS, there

:49:31.:49:37.

are 620 more midwives working in our NHS. And we are actually

:49:38.:49:41.

treating 100,000 more patients per month in our NHS. That's what is

:49:41.:49:45.

actually happening in the NHS, if he looks at what's happening in the

:49:45.:49:49.

hospital, rather than repeats what the trade unions are telling him.

:49:49.:49:54.

The Prime Minister will be aware that talks between St George's and

:49:54.:49:58.

Epsom and St Helier Trust have been abandoned regarding a possible

:49:58.:50:03.

merger. Could I seek reassurances that the Trust will be able to

:50:03.:50:07.

engage with local partners such as local authorities and the clinical

:50:07.:50:09.

commissioning groups to come forward with a proposal that meets

:50:09.:50:14.

local health needs and also that the �290 million allocated for the

:50:14.:50:18.

hospital is still available? Well, I totally understand my

:50:18.:50:21.

honourable friend's concerns about this issue. The priority for the

:50:21.:50:26.

Trust remains to secure the future of Epsom and St Helier and Sutton

:50:26.:50:28.

hospitals. I understand the board and those working on a possible

:50:28.:50:32.

merger had already started to look at the other options in case this

:50:32.:50:35.

didn't happen. I understand they're now looking at the next steps and I

:50:35.:50:38.

am sure the Department of Health will want to engage closely with

:50:38.:50:43.

him as this unfolds. Prime Minister, you are keen to

:50:43.:50:48.

tell us that work should always pay. Therefore, what do you say to my

:50:48.:50:52.

constituents from low and middle income family who is have contacted

:50:52.:50:56.

me to convey their fears about the measures being brought forward by

:50:56.:51:00.

the Government such as the removal of working and child tax credits,

:51:00.:51:04.

these are working people who are already facing severe financial

:51:05.:51:09.

difficulties and the current proposals could cost these hard

:51:09.:51:13.

working families with disabled children in receipt of the lower

:51:13.:51:17.

disability premium over �1300 per year?

:51:17.:51:21.

Well, I make two points. Of course we have had to reform the tax

:51:21.:51:24.

credit system when we came to office, tax credits went all the

:51:25.:51:28.

way up the income scale so actually people even in this House were

:51:28.:51:32.

eligible for tax credits and we have taken it further down the

:51:32.:51:38.

income scale. In terms of what she says about disability, I would make

:51:38.:51:43.

two points. Disability living allowance is going up by 5.2% this

:51:43.:51:48.

April, which will be well ahead of inflation. The point I would make

:51:48.:51:51.

about the universal credit issue is as she knows there is the lower

:51:51.:51:57.

rate for disabled children at �53. Anyone on that level is going to be

:51:57.:52:00.

completely protected through transitional payments. We haven't

:52:00.:52:04.

yet set the higher rate, but I can tell the honourable lady it will be

:52:04.:52:11.

at least what it is now, and possibly higher.

:52:11.:52:17.

Will the Prime Minister, as a matter of urgency, look into recent

:52:17.:52:23.

shocking report into allegations of overcharging of vulnerable adults

:52:23.:52:28.

on which arele and cases of violence and intimidation under a

:52:28.:52:32.

Labour-led council control, making sure those responsible are brought

:52:32.:52:36.

to account and never work in adult social services again?

:52:36.:52:39.

Well, I will certainly look at the report that she mentions. It's

:52:39.:52:43.

clearly a serious matter. Also ask the Minister responsible in the

:52:43.:52:46.

Department of Health to look into this matter further and speak with

:52:46.:52:51.

her. Clearly CQC, which has had a difficult birth has a really

:52:51.:52:55.

important job to do in terms of making sure inspections are

:52:55.:52:58.

thorough and targeted in the areas where they're most needed and

:52:58.:53:01.

clearly it sounds from what she said, is there is a great need for

:53:01.:53:06.

this to happen on Merseyside. again today the Prime Minister has

:53:06.:53:09.

denied that he is cutting benefits for disabled children, but the

:53:09.:53:12.

lower rate of disability living allowance for disabled children has

:53:13.:53:21.

been reduced from �54, almost �54 to almost �27, a cut of practically

:53:21.:53:24.

50%. 100,000 children are going to be affect. Is that not correct,

:53:24.:53:29.

Prime Minister? What is correct is that anyone on

:53:29.:53:33.

that lower rate of payment, no one will receive less as a result of

:53:33.:53:40.

their move to universal credit. No one will be affected by that.

:53:40.:53:43.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Prime Minister agree that a

:53:43.:53:47.

meaningful cap on benefits is essential if we are to end the

:53:47.:53:50.

something for nothing culture which developed under the last

:53:50.:53:53.

Government? I think that is absolutely right.

:53:53.:53:57.

It is right to bring in this cap T does introduce a new principle,

:53:57.:54:00.

which is you shouldn't be better off on benefits than the average

:54:01.:54:05.

family is in work. But what we have had from the party opposite is a

:54:05.:54:09.

complete silence. Are they going to be supporting us tonight in the

:54:09.:54:16.

lobbies? Why not just nod? Nod? I thought it was all about taking

:54:16.:54:19.

tough decisions, that they were in favour of a cap. They were going to

:54:19.:54:23.

tear up some of Labour's history. It was time to make bold decisions.

:54:23.:54:28.

Come on, one bold decision, just nod. Are you with us or against us?

:54:28.:54:38.
:54:38.:54:39.

A great big vacuum. Can the Prime Minister explain why

:54:39.:54:43.

my 65 kwraoerbld conconstitute --- year-old consit kwrepbt who

:54:43.:54:51.

couldn't debt a council home has to pay �100 because of his housing

:54:51.:54:54.

benefit reforms? Why is this Prime Minister so much tougher on the

:54:54.:54:58.

vulnerable, than he is on the powerful with their excessive

:54:59.:55:02.

bonuses? We know they're not going to back

:55:02.:55:06.

us on the welfare cap, and now we can see they're against the housing

:55:06.:55:12.

benefit reforms as well. Let me just remind her what her own

:55:12.:55:17.

welfare Minister said. He said it's completely unacceptable that

:55:17.:55:25.

housing benefit has rocketed to �20 billion. This is what he said.

:55:25.:55:33.

Where is - he is not at home today. He said this: Beverage would

:55:33.:55:37.

scarcely have believed housing benefit alone is costing the UK

:55:37.:55:41.

over �20 billion a year. Now, this Government is reforming it, that

:55:41.:55:47.

opposition is doing nothing. Does the Prime Minister agree that

:55:47.:55:51.

all members of this House who claim they're on the side of hard working

:55:51.:55:54.

families across the country should vote with the Government tonight to

:55:54.:55:58.

cap benefits at �26,000, which is after all the average income of

:55:58.:56:02.

hard working families? She's absolutely right. People up

:56:02.:56:07.

and down the country will be completely amazed that supposedly

:56:07.:56:11.

the party that's meant to stand up for working people thinks that it's

:56:11.:56:16.

OK to get more on benefits, than a family gets from working. Let me

:56:16.:56:21.

give them one more go. Are you with news the lobbies tonight -- with

:56:21.:56:28.

you with us in the lobbies tonight? Absolutely hopeless. It is now

:56:28.:56:32.

clear that the single biggest funder of the Prime Minister's

:56:32.:56:37.

party got his peerage on false pretenses. Can the Prime Minister

:56:37.:56:41.

guarantee that Lord Ashcroft has now told the whole truth about his

:56:41.:56:44.

connections with the building company Johnson International, or

:56:44.:56:48.

is it yet again one rule for his rich friends, and another rule for

:56:48.:56:53.

everyone else? I have answered this question many

:56:53.:56:58.

times. I I might point out to him the largest funder of his party has

:56:58.:57:04.

been based offshore. There are eight million houses who have to

:57:04.:57:09.

make do with earning �26,000 or less before tax. What message does

:57:09.:57:13.

my right honourable friend think we will be sending to those people if

:57:14.:57:23.

we are to renege on to cut benefits. Many people who do criticise the

:57:23.:57:28.

benefit cap and say actually �26,000, �500 a week is too high. I

:57:28.:57:32.

think it is fair, I think it is right but I think they have got -

:57:32.:57:35.

people have an expectation of their politicians that we are going to

:57:35.:57:38.

make it clear that you are better off in work than you are in

:57:38.:57:41.

benefits. There are plenty of people who are excluded from the

:57:41.:57:44.

cap because they're on disability living allowance, they're not able

:57:44.:57:48.

to work and the rest of it. But if you can work, you shouldn't be

:57:48.:57:51.

better off on benefits. A simple principle. I find it amazing that

:57:51.:58:00.

the party opposite can't agree. One more go, one little nod? Nothing.

:58:00.:58:05.

Mr Speaker, in opposition the Prime Minister told millions on TV, if

:58:05.:58:15.
:58:15.:58:20.

you work hard, I will be behind you. 82% state owned RBS hasn't signed

:58:20.:58:27.

up to pay the living wage of �8.30 in London and �7.20 per hour

:58:27.:58:32.

elsewhere for all its staff and contractors. Why does his

:58:32.:58:40.

Government support low wages for workers, but big bucks and bonuses

:58:40.:58:44.

for bankers? I thought by saying standing up for people who work

:58:44.:58:47.

hard he was beginning to get the hang of it and we might have a

:58:47.:58:51.

supporter tonight. What this Government has done with RBS is

:58:51.:58:55.

radically cut the bonus pool that was massive under Labour, is say

:58:55.:59:01.

there should be a �2,000 cash cap, unlike the massive cash increases

:59:01.:59:08.

under Labour and actually beginning to get this bank under control.

:59:08.:59:12.

Liberal Democrat plan to increase the income tax threshold to �10,000

:59:12.:59:15.

was on the front page of our manifesto. It will give many

:59:15.:59:19.

working people an extra �700 a year and lift millions of poorly paid

:59:19.:59:23.

people out of income tax altogether. At a time when many working people

:59:23.:59:26.

are struggling to make ends meet, will the Prime Minister agree to go

:59:26.:59:31.

further and faster on this much needed tax cut?

:59:31.:59:34.

I think the honourable gentleman is right to raise this issue and I am

:59:34.:59:39.

proud of the fact we have taken 1.1 million people out of tax, those

:59:39.:59:44.

are some of the lowest paid people in our country, the majority are

:59:44.:59:46.

women and we are committed to making further progress during this

:59:46.:59:52.

parliament with this policy. Prime Minister, before the general

:59:52.:59:56.

election you told midwives that you would make their lives easier and

:59:56.:00:01.

that you would recruit 3,000 more midwives. Since the general

:00:01.:00:05.

election nurses and midwives have been downbanded, working harder for

:00:05.:00:11.

less, and midwives in training have been reduced by 3% a year. Will the

:00:11.:00:14.

British people wrong to take you at your word?

:00:14.:00:19.

I am very sorry but the honourable lady's figures are in fact wrong,

:00:19.:00:23.

compared with the election there are over 620 more midwives working

:00:23.:00:28.

in the NHS, and there are record numbers in training. Now we want to

:00:28.:00:32.

do more. But will only be able to do more if we keep funding the NHS

:00:32.:00:36.

and her party is committed to cutting it, saying NHS funding

:00:36.:00:40.

increases are irresponsible. And will only be able to do it if we

:00:40.:00:42.

keep cutting back on the bureaucracy which we are doing

:00:42.:00:46.

successfully with our reforms and making sure the money goes into the

:00:46.:00:49.

front end. But there are more midwives, more in training. I am

:00:49.:00:59.

afraid her figures are wrong. you, Mr Speaker. On New Year's Eve

:00:59.:01:02.

2010 my constituent Jamie Still was killed by a drink driver who was

:01:02.:01:07.

more than twice over the limit. And yet his family had to face the fact

:01:07.:01:11.

that the person who killed him continued to drive for a further

:01:11.:01:15.

eight months until sentencing. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet

:01:15.:01:20.

with the family and consider their campaign that people who are

:01:20.:01:23.

seriously over the limit in a death by dangerous driving case should

:01:23.:01:26.

have as part of their bail conditions their driving licence

:01:26.:01:32.

withdrawn? My heart goes out to my honourable

:01:32.:01:34.

friend's constituents for the loss they've suffered. I think he raises

:01:34.:01:38.

a very important point about what happens in cases like these and

:01:38.:01:41.

what you can and cannot do with bail conditions. I will certainly

:01:41.:01:46.

go away and look at that. It may well be this is something we can

:01:46.:01:49.

consider alongside the recommendations we are considering

:01:49.:01:52.

about drug-related driving. I think there is more work for the

:01:52.:01:55.

Government to do in this area and I will certainly listen to his

:01:55.:02:00.

concerns. We believe on these benches that the Government's

:02:00.:02:05.

welfare cap is both fair and reasonable and we will be

:02:05.:02:08.

supporting the Government in the lobbies tonight but we also believe

:02:09.:02:12.

that the Lords' amendments affecting vulnerable people, cancer

:02:12.:02:17.

patients and disabled people are also fair and reasonable. Not least

:02:17.:02:21.

because of the disproportionately detrimental effects on Northern

:02:21.:02:23.

Ireland which the Prime Minister will be aware of. Why is it,

:02:23.:02:28.

therefore, that we are so limited in time in terms of debating these

:02:28.:02:31.

crucial issues which affect so many of our most vulnerable people?

:02:31.:02:34.

First of all, can I thank him for his support in the lobbies tonight

:02:34.:02:38.

and look forward to seeing him there. On the issue of the cancer

:02:38.:02:42.

sufferers and the plans, let me explain that the number of people

:02:43.:02:46.

under our plans, the number of cancer sufferers that will get

:02:46.:02:50.

extra long-term help through the support group is actually going to

:02:50.:02:52.

increase. And we are going to reduce the number of people that

:02:52.:02:55.

have to have face-to-face assessments. These proposals have

:02:55.:02:58.

been fully supported by Professor Harrington Harrington who we asked

:02:58.:03:02.

to look into this issue because we weren't happy with the previous

:03:02.:03:05.

Government's arrangements and the way these things were dealt with.

:03:05.:03:08.

The point Wye make is there are two types of employment and support

:03:08.:03:12.

allowance, the support group who will always go on getting support,

:03:12.:03:17.

not means tested, as long as they need that help they will get it and

:03:17.:03:19.

the work-related activity group, people who with help are able to

:03:19.:03:23.

work and I think it's right to ask them with support to get into work

:03:23.:03:28.

and that's what we are going to do. Who does the Prime Minister think

:03:28.:03:36.

is on the side of hard working low paid families in doesn't eaten? The

:03:36.:03:39.

Conservative-led coalition that's taken the lowest paid out of tax

:03:39.:03:43.

and capping benefits or the party opposite who took away the 10p tax

:03:43.:03:46.

rate and flip-flopping over the benefit cap?

:03:46.:03:52.

I think my honourable friend is being chartable, they're not flip-

:03:52.:04:02.
:04:02.:04:07.

flopping over the benefit cap, So Mr Mellor and went on bankers'

:04:07.:04:10.

bonuses, asking the Prime Minister to do even more following the loss

:04:10.:04:15.

of the knighthood from Fred Goodwin. -- Mr Miliband. He then went on the

:04:15.:04:19.

NHS reforms, which the government is still struggling to get through

:04:19.:04:23.

the Lords, pointing out that most of the medical establishment is

:04:23.:04:27.

against the reforms. The Prime Minister pointed out that the

:04:27.:04:30.

medical establishment is usually against any kind of reform. What

:04:30.:04:34.

was not mentioned, dogs that did not bark in the mother of all

:04:34.:04:37.

parliaments, Afghanistan did not rate a mention, despite the NATO

:04:37.:04:43.

report we are talking about earlier. The eurozone, despite the failure

:04:43.:04:47.

of Greece to agree the size of its haircut, and Portugal looking as if

:04:47.:04:51.

it will be next in line to take a haircut as well. There was not even

:04:51.:04:56.

a passing reference to Mitt Romney winning in Florida in the early

:04:56.:05:02.

hours of this morning, which I thought they might have mentioned.

:05:02.:05:07.

We will hear what our panel thinks in a moment, but first what were

:05:07.:05:12.

the e-mails about? The leaders' performances and the NHS, in the

:05:12.:05:16.

name. Ian Jordan from Tamworth, suddenly Ed Miliband has the

:05:16.:05:19.

measure of David Cameron, who seems rattled and weak by comparison on

:05:19.:05:25.

key issues. David Cameron does not do himself well when he loses his

:05:25.:05:30.

temper and personalises his attack. This is from Damian in Manchester,

:05:30.:05:33.

David Cameron is quite right to repeat the fact that Labour left us

:05:33.:05:37.

with such a mess, many people in the Labour Party are very fickle

:05:37.:05:43.

and need a reminder, hence the lame class division Jan. This is from

:05:43.:05:47.

Liam in addition, fed up with David Cameron refusing to answer the

:05:47.:05:50.

questions, the response about NHS reform proved that he is genuinely

:05:51.:05:56.

at of touch. But this is from Damian, all right, two goes, here

:05:56.:06:04.

we go again with desperate veto using the NHS card. -- desperate Ed.

:06:04.:06:08.

Time to hose down our automatic accent, back to class war!

:06:08.:06:14.

thought that was the striking thing, there is no doubt that Ed Miliband

:06:14.:06:17.

that the Prime Minister on the back foot, just by quietly asking

:06:17.:06:21.

questions that he knew the answer to already, the answer was no. Why

:06:21.:06:26.

not implement the Walker report which would mean that bankers

:06:26.:06:29.

salaries over �1 million were published? Why not put an employee

:06:29.:06:34.

on the remuneration committees? But then he is an extraordinary phrase

:06:34.:06:38.

when he said that David Cameron and his Cabinet of millionaires, of his

:06:38.:06:44.

political strategy, could not lead a class war on bankers. I think he

:06:44.:06:50.

might come to regret that phrase. If I was a businessman, sitting in

:06:50.:06:54.

New York right now, and I am thinking of relocating and putting

:06:54.:06:59.

a new investment into Europe, and I am watching British politics at the

:06:59.:07:03.

moment, what do I see? I see politicians in the keirin on how

:07:03.:07:08.

much I can pay senior executives, those who pay a lot being pilloried,

:07:08.:07:14.

and whatever I pay, the state will take 52%. Why come to Britain?

:07:14.:07:17.

not think it is only in Britain that these debates are happening.

:07:17.:07:20.

They are happening in America and other European countries, and it is

:07:20.:07:25.

about getting a proper balance between open for business and

:07:25.:07:29.

having proper remuneration for people, and understanding the

:07:29.:07:32.

causes of the collapse in 2008. are meant to be open for business,

:07:32.:07:38.

we have to rebuild our economy after the Great Crash of 2008, and

:07:38.:07:42.

this would not seem to be a great way of going about it if we want to

:07:42.:07:45.

have a business-friendly environment. Of course, we have got

:07:45.:07:48.

to have a business-friendly environment, and it is right that

:07:48.:07:51.

we strike a proper and correct balance and avoid being anti-

:07:51.:07:56.

business. Ed is promoting a devout about responsible capitalism, which

:07:56.:08:00.

a lot of people in the business world recognise needs to happen.

:08:01.:08:04.

The problem for the Conservatives is that you unleash the dogs of war,

:08:04.:08:08.

the Tories in opposition loved banker bashing. Indeed, your

:08:08.:08:13.

rhetoric often outbid Labour, and it has come back to bite you in the

:08:13.:08:17.

bottom. I do not think so, if you are sitting in New York, you will

:08:17.:08:20.

see the Occupy Wall Street protesters down the road. This

:08:20.:08:25.

debate happens all over the world. The day are not saying how much you

:08:25.:08:35.
:08:35.:08:39.

can pay people. Net but the focus on business. Nobody objects to

:08:39.:08:43.

people starting a business being rewarded for it. -- let's put the

:08:43.:08:48.

focus. Are people being paid large bonuses went by and large they are

:08:48.:08:52.

only in business because the taxpayer has bailed them out?

:08:52.:08:56.

People object to the one-way bet, where if you do well, you get a

:08:56.:09:00.

large bonus, and the same if you do badly. There's nothing wrong with

:09:00.:09:05.

politicians pointing that out. If you were in New York, I hope he

:09:05.:09:09.

would say this was a great place to do business for a technology

:09:09.:09:13.

company, but also it if you are a banker, let's show a bit of

:09:13.:09:16.

humility and understanding that you live in a society where people have

:09:16.:09:21.

real concerns. I understand the point that if we bailed these

:09:21.:09:24.

bankers out, it is rather frustrating to see them still being

:09:24.:09:29.

on huge salaries, even though they have not put their banks on to an

:09:29.:09:34.

even keel. But you NPower, and when you took over, you both agreed that

:09:34.:09:39.

that decision on pay and bonuses were not be yours. -- in power. You

:09:39.:09:43.

and sauced it to a quango, and you do not have the direct power to

:09:43.:09:48.

determine pay. -- out sourced. reality in the case are RBS is that

:09:48.:09:53.

the state had to intervene to save RBS. That is not my issue. You did

:09:53.:09:59.

not take direct control of pay and bonuses. You out solstice, and the

:09:59.:10:02.

Conservatives in government have kept it that way. -- Alex Horne

:10:02.:10:11.

state. I thought you were linking Andrew is putting his finger on

:10:11.:10:15.

something interesting, which is the concern that business has and is

:10:15.:10:18.

beginning to articulate, the arbitrary nature of political

:10:18.:10:22.

intervention. They can cope with rules. If you change the tax system,

:10:22.:10:27.

they have got predictability. If you want to change the rules on

:10:27.:10:31.

transparency, for example, or how pay is set, whether there should be

:10:31.:10:35.

bonuses, in the end they make a judgment. The thing that is really

:10:35.:10:39.

an ailing business at the moment is the fact that when political

:10:39.:10:43.

pressure gets great enough, when there is contest on the front

:10:43.:10:46.

benches as to who can be holier than now, suddenly this arm's-

:10:47.:10:52.

length relationship with RBS goes out the window when the Prime

:10:52.:10:57.

Minister desperately tries to stop Stephen Hester's bonus. People

:10:57.:11:03.

expect politicians to talk about the businesses -- issues of the day.

:11:03.:11:06.

I seem to remember the chairman of RBS waved his bonus before Stephen

:11:06.:11:11.

Hester made his decision, leaving Stephen Hester even more exposed.

:11:11.:11:16.

There was a public debate, and he knew he was taking on a publicly

:11:16.:11:19.

owned bank and the brokers would be on hand. The share price has halved,

:11:19.:11:25.

people are wondering why he should get a �2 million bonus. Mash the

:11:25.:11:35.
:11:35.:11:40.

It needs to be about changing the rules, and what was striking today

:11:40.:11:42.

was that Ed Miliband put to the Prime Minister some pretty modest

:11:42.:11:46.

changes to the rules that have been recommended by the High Pay

:11:46.:11:49.

Commission, and the Prime Minister parted them away. The Walker report

:11:49.:11:53.

says do not introduce those rules unless they are global. The idea

:11:54.:11:57.

that the Prime Minister is holding back on his is not right. One issue

:11:58.:12:03.

that we have not talked about as we come to the end of our time here,

:12:03.:12:09.

as a country, we give almost more than �250 million the year in

:12:09.:12:15.

foreign aid to India. I understand we have given about �1.3 billion in

:12:15.:12:18.

the last four years, and yet we learned last night that the Indians

:12:18.:12:23.

have decided not to buy the Eurofighter, the Typhoon, of which

:12:23.:12:26.

we make a big chunk, but to buy what most people regard as an

:12:26.:12:31.

inferior French fighter, the Rafale. It has not been money well spent.

:12:31.:12:38.

do not think we gave money to India... France is nothing to India.

:12:38.:12:43.

France has no one aid to India. are a generous nation. Comic Relief

:12:43.:12:47.

has raised more money in a recession than they did before. We

:12:47.:12:51.

give that money to the Indian people. We give it to people who

:12:51.:12:58.

are in poverty, suffering from illness and disease. It goes to

:12:58.:13:01.

government quangos. It is moving to a position where India will no

:13:01.:13:05.

longer receive aid over the next three years. That is the direction

:13:05.:13:08.

of travel. We have supported programmes which deserve to be

:13:08.:13:13.

supported. The Prime Minister indicated that this was not yet a

:13:13.:13:17.

done deal. If that is true, we are going to go back in Anne and Pitch

:13:17.:13:22.

Again. He seemed to suggest the Indians had opened negotiations

:13:22.:13:28.

with the French because they had given the lowest bid. He seemed to

:13:28.:13:31.

suggest it might yet unravel and that there would be another go for

:13:31.:13:36.

British Aerospace. I have not seen at anywhere else. Neither have I.

:13:36.:13:41.

David Davies, along with Alan Johnson, the former Labour Home

:13:41.:13:45.

Secretary, both MPs in hull, have been campaigning together to try to

:13:45.:13:49.

defend jobs in the area, and this will cause them real angst. Thank

:13:49.:13:54.

you for being with us, we're holding hostage until one o'clock,

:13:54.:14:00.

so do not think about leaving! gets to leave early? For good

:14:00.:14:06.

behaviour! He is a member of Her Majesty's BBC. He has got to get to

:14:06.:14:14.

the news. I can check whether that is true! It is out! The Government,

:14:14.:14:18.

about to publish what could be as many as 100 amendments to its

:14:18.:14:22.

controversial Bill to reform the NHS. After the furore caused by the

:14:22.:14:26.

original proposals on the health secretary, Andrew Lansley, there

:14:26.:14:30.

was a redrafting of the legislation. Doctors and nurses have been on the

:14:31.:14:35.

warpath again, calling for the plans to be abandoned. I'm joined

:14:35.:14:39.

by former Labour Health Minister Lord Warner. Do you think it is

:14:39.:14:41.

still possible politically to push these reforms through? I have

:14:41.:14:45.

little doubt that the Government will get its bill at the end of the

:14:45.:14:50.

day. Now, they would get that bill at a price. They will have

:14:50.:14:54.

alienated quite a lot of people. They certainly will not have

:14:54.:14:59.

achieved cross-party consensus. The uproar that will come from

:14:59.:15:04.

implementing the Bill will disrupt the NHS from delivering the �20

:15:04.:15:08.

billion savings over the next four years that have to be delivered.

:15:08.:15:11.

the bill should be scrapped? have got to that rather strange

:15:11.:15:17.

point where the Bill is a good way up the hill, and it is a tough

:15:17.:15:21.

judgment as to whether you march everybody back down or continue to

:15:21.:15:25.

the summit. I think we are at the point where you are got to carry on

:15:25.:15:29.

and make the best of a bad job. that is the problem, it seems

:15:29.:15:32.

impossible to get rid of it, even if there are people across the

:15:32.:15:35.

political spectrum who feel it is too difficult to achieve while

:15:36.:15:40.

making savings. I think there is a danger that we end up with a

:15:40.:15:45.

financial train crash. I mean, there is no doubt about that. Most

:15:45.:15:51.

organisations would not try to overturn the organisational

:15:51.:15:56.

structure at the same time that they are trying to produce �20

:15:56.:15:59.

billion worth of savings over a period of years. They would try to

:15:59.:16:02.

keep more managers in those posts to deliver the changes, but they

:16:02.:16:07.

have chosen, the government, to go the hard route. What about the

:16:07.:16:11.

amendments themselves? We are expecting about 100. Will that do

:16:11.:16:15.

anything to dramatically changed the bill? It is a very able

:16:15.:16:19.

minister in the Lords, but he got a fair old kicking from across the

:16:19.:16:23.

benches and quite a few issues. They are not issues which have been

:16:23.:16:26.

in the public eye, but they are important, education, training,

:16:26.:16:31.

research, public health. The conversation I had with him this

:16:31.:16:36.

morning, where he courteously rang me up, suggested they have listened

:16:36.:16:39.

to some of the concerns that were expressed in the Lords from

:16:39.:16:43.

different parts of the house. So I think we are going to end up with

:16:43.:16:49.

probably a better built than it Thank you very much.

:16:49.:16:53.

Now, you might well be confused about what these reforms to the NHS

:16:53.:16:56.

actually mean. We certainly are, but the politicians they must

:16:56.:17:01.

understand it, right? Well, just to be sure we have a

:17:01.:17:05.

little test for our two politicians, test number two. I would like to

:17:05.:17:10.

ask you, Ed, you are going to start us off, to arrange these cards on

:17:10.:17:14.

the flip chart, which has been brought in very ably by John, to

:17:14.:17:19.

show us the structure of the NHS will look like under the

:17:19.:17:22.

Government's reforms. I might help you. Stephen, you are going to tell

:17:22.:17:28.

him if he is right or not. Can you be - this is a flow chart, you

:17:28.:17:30.

remember these from school. Starting at the top with the chain

:17:30.:17:35.

of responsibility. Have a go. think it's unfair to ask me,

:17:35.:17:39.

because I came early to the programme and walked in and was

:17:39.:17:42.

told I wasn't allowed in the studio and saw the entire arrangement.

:17:42.:17:48.

mean you cheated! I will say that is my flow chart. This is what

:17:48.:17:52.

these reforms are about. Obviously, they will be helped by your

:17:52.:17:55.

clinical commissioning groups, go somewhere over here. You want to

:17:55.:17:59.

put patients at the bottom, you are the BBC, but I would put them at

:17:59.:18:04.

the top. This is the Government's reforms. I do want to put Andrew at

:18:04.:18:11.

the top, he is a great man. I think they go to the side here, clinical

:18:11.:18:17.

Senates, linking in to the groups. GPs and dentists and the national

:18:17.:18:20.

board under Andrew, of course, very important people. And hospitals

:18:20.:18:27.

over here. But the key point is patients. That's what it's all

:18:27.:18:33.

about. I want to put them at the top. This is a BBC flow chart.

:18:33.:18:36.

key thing happened there is when things started to fall off, that's

:18:36.:18:39.

what has been happening throughout this process. It's a disaster and

:18:39.:18:42.

big waste of money what the Government are doing. What is a

:18:42.:18:46.

waste of money? Labour have said handing over a slice of the budget

:18:46.:18:51.

to GPs, cutting out the middle management is not a bad idea.

:18:51.:18:56.

started some of this with practice- based commissions, Andy Burnham

:18:56.:18:59.

when he became shadow Health Secretary made an offer to Andrew

:18:59.:19:02.

Lansley to work together to spread clinical commissioning but we don't

:19:02.:19:06.

need this legislation in order to do that. Isn't the problem really,

:19:06.:19:14.

as the Health Select Committee said, - I will change those. Listen, we

:19:14.:19:20.

have 100 amendments coming on. was so nervous! Shouldn't GPs be

:19:20.:19:25.

closer? You get a point. Do you want to swap those around. Utterly

:19:25.:19:30.

humiliating this programme! I only come on it waupbs year -- waupbs

:19:30.:19:35.

year. There is unhappiness on your benches with this, even if you

:19:35.:19:37.

agree with the reforms it's not possible to do the same thing as

:19:38.:19:41.

taking that money out and carry out reforms at the same time. Well, I

:19:41.:19:44.

think the reforms are long overdue and I think they will put power

:19:44.:19:49.

into the hands of GPs and you will remember the letter from the

:19:49.:19:52.

commissioning groups published I think last week, saying this is a

:19:52.:19:55.

huge opportunity for the NHS. There have been reforms, reforms under

:19:55.:20:00.

the last Government. I remember as a new MP we had five Primary Care

:20:00.:20:05.

Trusts, we went down to down. We want to simplify the structure. I

:20:05.:20:10.

thought would you produce a much more complicated, one that closely

:20:10.:20:17.

resepl pwepled the BBC perhaps. studio is not big enough for that!

:20:17.:20:20.

This puts power in the hands of GPs to commission the services that

:20:20.:20:24.

patients need. As a constituenty MP, I am sure Stephen has a different

:20:25.:20:30.

experience, I am not experiencing in my postbag in terms of people

:20:30.:20:34.

saying this is a distraction... heard Conservative MPs who are

:20:34.:20:38.

worried about the effect of taking that money out at the same time.

:20:38.:20:41.

constituency, including people who have been involved with this

:20:41.:20:45.

clinical commissioning the Government says it's based on the

:20:45.:20:50.

evidence is 98% of GPs are opposed, yet it's supposed to be putting

:20:50.:20:54.

more power. It's been rushed and the Government need to go back to

:20:54.:20:57.

the drawing board. You think it should be scrapped altogether?

:20:57.:21:00.

can't see how this Bill can be salvaged. It's been changed

:21:00.:21:07.

funmently. That's part of the problem, you have the combination...

:21:07.:21:12.

Norman Warner said �20 billion is being taken out of the system as

:21:12.:21:15.

well as a reorganisation, so it's a waste of money on the

:21:15.:21:19.

reorganisation at a time when when services are being cut. It would be

:21:19.:21:22.

much better to work together on a cross-party base which is doctors

:21:23.:21:26.

and nurses to make clinical-based practices actually work which they

:21:26.:21:33.

could do. It will be in the end down to what the Liberal Democrats

:21:33.:21:38.

do, won't it in terms of numbers and politics? Yes, I think it will.

:21:38.:21:41.

I think, you know, in general, yes, the Bill will go through and I

:21:42.:21:46.

think the amendments, I haven't seen the amendments, but they're

:21:46.:21:52.

technical amendments as as -- as I understand it, people are much

:21:52.:21:57.

clearer. It has been - again what the Prime Minister said at PMQs,

:21:57.:22:01.

you will always get opposition to reform, and then once it goes

:22:01.:22:05.

through people will adapt it, but I think will produce a simpler system

:22:05.:22:14.

and for me the key is giving power to GPs. After After - some of the

:22:14.:22:18.

colleges are against it. Despite that, it will still go through,

:22:18.:22:26.

probably. Someone has tweeted that you demand

:22:26.:22:32.

fresh fruit and cab both ways when you appear on the BBC. Is it true?

:22:32.:22:41.

No, in fact, we don't get cars at all now. We inherited a �300,000

:22:41.:22:45.

bill from the last four Labour Ministers who were in there.

:22:45.:22:52.

BBC would be paying for the cab? walked here. You can categorically

:22:52.:22:58.

deny that? Yes, I walked here. Forget about hug a hoody, the

:22:58.:23:06.

latest policy is to deknight a hoody. Fred Goodwin may be one of

:23:06.:23:16.
:23:16.:23:16.

few. History is full of Sirs who perhaps should have been

:23:16.:23:21.

dishonoured as well. Giles has been looking at when knights go bad.

:23:21.:23:28.

The idea of the bad knight is not rare, it's a caricature in medieval

:23:28.:23:38.

history, but some titled terrors really do stand out. In 11 70 Sirs

:23:38.:23:42.

hacked at the head of an Archbishop, and redecorated the cathedral with

:23:42.:23:47.

the insides. And murder is no stranger to knights of the Realm.

:23:47.:23:51.

Sir James confessed to the murder of the Princes in the tower, in

:23:51.:23:55.

1483. Although he might have been tortured. No, I don't mean he was

:23:55.:24:00.

racked with guilt. Frankly, France sis is a bad name if you want a

:24:00.:24:05.

good night. Sir Francis in the 1570s was a shifty but effective

:24:05.:24:10.

chief spook for Elizabeth I Sir Francis Bacon's life ended in

:24:10.:24:16.

disgrey, barred for bribery. And Sir Francis Drake was a killer,

:24:16.:24:21.

thief and slave trader. In the 17th century Sir Henry Morgan proved the

:24:21.:24:24.

rule if you mug and kill someone on land you are a thief and if you are

:24:25.:24:31.

at sea and they're Spanish you are a hero. Sir Roger Casement was

:24:31.:24:37.

convicted of spying. He was stripped of his honour and executed.

:24:37.:24:42.

And a spot of Soviet spookery, led Mrs Mrs Thatch tore remove the

:24:42.:24:46.

knighthood on Sir Anthony Blunt, the lesson being murder might be

:24:46.:24:51.

bad, but it's spying that actually gets you stripped of your honours.

:24:51.:24:55.

Bluntly put, a spot of regal sword play on the Commons shoulder might

:24:55.:25:00.

make a Sir but doesn't necessarily make a noble human being. We are

:25:00.:25:04.

joined now by the historian Dan Snow. Welcome to the show. Good to

:25:04.:25:09.

see you. Was Fred Goodwin in the wrong time,

:25:09.:25:12.

the wrong place, the wrong era? think he was, what's interesting

:25:12.:25:17.

about that piece there it shows sometimes knights are denobled,

:25:17.:25:22.

whatever the word is, for evil deeds, but often it's because their

:25:22.:25:25.

politics, they fall out with the people in charge. Of course, James

:25:25.:25:32.

I decided Sir Walter wasn't his cup of tea and and he was far too

:25:32.:25:35.

towards the Spanish, he got in trouble, he was executed. Most of

:25:35.:25:39.

the time, unfortunately, they find themselves being Lorded by one

:25:39.:25:43.

regime, the regime changes, or circumstances change and events

:25:43.:25:47.

change, and like Fred, you find yourself on the receiving end of

:25:47.:25:52.

some punishment. We have moved a long way from medieval times when

:25:52.:25:57.

knights were supposed to live by a code. I don't think that many who

:25:57.:26:01.

are called Sir this and that these days live by that kind of code, do

:26:01.:26:07.

they? Of course, arguably that code is a massive spin exercise, anyway.

:26:07.:26:12.

Of course, the basis of knights, in fact, was probably around 9th and

:26:12.:26:17.

10th century France where thugish provinesal war Lords emerge and

:26:17.:26:20.

they become knights, they exercise local power and they have an uneasy

:26:21.:26:24.

relationship with a central Government that they hold land in

:26:24.:26:27.

return for vague service to the Crown. It's only later in the

:26:27.:26:31.

middle ages people start saying if you are going to be one of these

:26:31.:26:34.

thugish locals cow be nice to people and women and children and

:26:34.:26:38.

stuff like that. British history is littered with - don't forget,

:26:38.:26:42.

perhaps the greatest knight of them all, Sir Winston Churchill, a man

:26:42.:26:46.

who took risks, he risked the entire future of Britain and The

:26:46.:26:49.

Empire, possibly the entire future of western civilisation of his

:26:49.:26:55.

tkpapl bell of stopping Hitler. Bomber Harris was knighted after

:26:55.:26:58.

effectively incinerating a huge number of Germans during the war.

:26:58.:27:03.

It's not necessarily the deeds that are notable about these knights and

:27:03.:27:12.

Fred took great risks whilst he was at RBS, bomb is Harris, Churchill.

:27:12.:27:16.

What I have been watching the last few days, frankly it all comes down

:27:16.:27:20.

to luck F you are on the right side of events you are going to do fine.

:27:20.:27:25.

It reminds me of Napoleon, who asked off his Generals, are they

:27:25.:27:30.

lucky? Do you think in the 21st century we should be still spraying

:27:30.:27:34.

around these knighthoods? Shouldn't we get rid of it altogether or keep

:27:34.:27:39.

it for the truly exceptional, like a Winston Churchill, so you only

:27:39.:27:46.

have maybe about 20 knights at any one time? Like the knights of the

:27:46.:27:49.

Garter, for example, which is an extraordinary extraordinary

:27:49.:27:54.

medieval hangover that's survived. Possibly, our hopb honours system

:27:54.:28:00.

is slightly absurd, but as - people the point is people will be feted

:28:00.:28:03.

and if it's not knighthoods, it will be some other way, Chancellors

:28:03.:28:06.

of the university or whatever it might be and then events will

:28:06.:28:12.

change, luck will change, decisions that were welcomed in different

:28:12.:28:20.

circumstances will now look completely inabgriesic. It won't be

:28:20.:28:26.

long, Sir Dan. Fingers crossed! will put a word in for you, that

:28:26.:28:31.

will make sure you never get it! Time to give you the answer to

:28:31.:28:37.

Guess the Year. 1979. The road hauliers strike was the clue. You

:28:38.:28:43.

can pick the winner, Ed Vaizey. Stephen guessed the year.

:28:43.:28:50.

haven't that much time to be polite! Politicians! Cameron

:28:50.:28:54.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS