09/02/2012 Daily Politics


09/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn have the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon, folks bs welcome to the Daily Politics. In a few

:00:44.:00:47.

minutes, we expect to hear that interest rates are on hold yet

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again for the 36th month in a row and that the Bank of England is

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going to print yet more money to buy up Government debt, all in the

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hope of stimulating growth. If or when it happens, you will be the

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first to know. Fabio Capello resigns as England

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football manager, the Football Association is holding a press

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conference right now. Should his replacement be an

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Englishman? Ken Livingstone is no stranger to

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controversy but now he's gone and said the Tory party is or was

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riddled with gays. There's outrage. Yes, there is

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outrage! Is any of it genuine?

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And politicians love their bikes and now there's news from France

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that cyclers there will be allowed to jump red lights. What's new? Is

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that the sort of thing you would like to see her?

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-- see here? Drivers jump red lights in Paris,

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why shouldn't cyclists. cyclists do here anyway. All that

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in the next hour of public service broadcasting at its finest.

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With us for the duration, the leader of the UK Independence Party,

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Nigel Farage. Welcome to back to the programme. Thank you.

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comments or thoughts or just got nothing else to do and you want to

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say something about what we are going to discuss, you can tweet

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your comments. # DP. Most of you watching yesterday will

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remember that the Prime Minister is currently wrapped up at a Nordic

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summit in Sweden. Now what he said there this morning is that he was

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looking for measures to accelerate the number of women working for top

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British firms, saying he wants a target of around 30%. He's also

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said he won't rule out quotas as a way of getting there. But not just

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yet. A good idea, Nigel Farage? It's not his idea, of course. The

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yarpblt voted for this in principle and legislation, we are told, will

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be brought forward shortly. The 30% quota won't be a Government

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decision but something imposed on us from Brussels. Is it a good idea

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though? No, I don't believe in quotas. While it may seem unfair

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that fewer women reach FTSE company, the fact is that there are not as

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many women who want to do the very demanding sfen day a week jobs. A

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lot of women have children and it's difficult in the corporate jungle

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to get to the top if you have to take time off two or three times in

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your career. If you look at parental leave and flexible working

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hours and flexible pay in other countries, that would make it

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easier? Yes, they have a different approach and the state is very

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happy to kfr all of the Cos for maternity believe and things like

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this -- cover. The point is, I talk about the corporate jungle. The

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people that get to the top utterly dedicate themselves to these jobs

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year after year after year and if you take six months off, you are

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disadvantaged. It's just as simple as that. So the status quo would

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change if there weren't these quotas and you say that would be

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fine because it's too difficult? Not because it's difficult but lots

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of women make other life choices. How many female UKIP MEPs are there

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in your party? We have two. The party director is female. Indeed on

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our assembly list for London for the elections in May we have got

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female barristers and brokers, but I don't believe in quotas and

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certainly in UKIP, if people get on, they do so on ability. The Prime

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Minister says it would help the economy, there is an economic

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reason to have the quotas? I don't know where he gets that from.

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say the Government figures that say... He's spouting the EU line.

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This is what the recommendation in the European Parliament that we

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voted for. I didn't vote for it, but that is what it said.

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Now, while Jo was doing that, we have discovered the Bank of England

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has frozen interest rates. They are still at 0.5%, that's not

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surprising. It's also extending its programme of what is called

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technically quantitive easing, basically the creating of the new

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money. It will be �50 billion. A little less than the City thought.

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They were thinking maybe up to �75 billion. It began with �75 billion,

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it got up to �200 billion, then did another �75 billion, it's now added

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another �50 billion, that takes total printing of money up to �3 25

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billion. We've never had that before, Jo.

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No. Thank you for setting out the No. Thank you for setting out the

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firs. The Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee cut

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interest rates to 0.5% in March 2009, a record low. Since then they

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haven't shift ford almost three years. The bank began its programme

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of quantitive easing at the same time, creating new money to buy

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financials a setss with the - QE has been increased at several

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stages to �275 billion in October last year and now with a further

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�50blt announced today, creating new money and keeping interest

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rates down would be expected to cause inflation.

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At a time when the Consumer Prices Index is well above target at 4.2%,

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you might wonder why the bank is sticking with the programme.

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The reason is the continuing problem facing the economy. It

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shrank by 0.2% in the fourth quarter of last year. But whilst

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low interest rates might help the economy and people with big

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mortgages, they're bad for savers. In one recent poll, just 23% of

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people said low rates are good for their personal finances compared to

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36% who said they are bad. Thanks Jo. We are joined by the

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Conservative MP, Matthew Hancock, he's a former economist at the Bank

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of England so maybe he can tell us why out of the last 68 forecasts of

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inflation they got 59 wrong. He was the adviser to Chancellor George

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Osborne and then became an MP. We are joined also by the Shadow

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economic secretary to the Treasury, Chris Lesley who I don't think has

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made any forecasts on inflation. Matthew Hancock, do you accept that

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one of the main consequences of QE is to transfer wealth from savers

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is to transfer wealth from savers to borrowers?

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No, I don't think that's one of the main points. It keeps interest

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rates low? Yes, but we manage our macro economy by altering interest

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rates and of course it has different impacts on different

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people. The most important impact of QE is to try to make sure this

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de-leveraging in the banking system goes at a pace that doesn't damage

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the wider economy more than the difficulties that we are trying to

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get through. We've always had this position. We've got these debts,

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we've talked about them around this programme a lot, and our argument's

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always been, you want fiscal responsibility and monetary

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activism where the monetary side keeps the economy going once you do

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the difficult stuff. But it's difficult to finance the debt?

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the Bank of England is, well it's not technically printing money but

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it's carrying out quantitive easing. Hold on. The Government issued �17

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billion worth of gilts in October last year, the bank bought �17

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billion worth of gilts in November the government issued �12 billion

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worth of gilts and the bank bought �24 billion worth of gilts. In 2012

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so far, the Government's issued �16 worth of debt, the bank's bought

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�24 billion. You are monetising the debt? What was wrong with what I

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said there? The key point in that is that the Bank of England is

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independent and what's crucial is that in these very difficult

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economic times when we have got the debt deficit we need to deal with -

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some people don't agree with that - we do, we have also got to keep the

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economy going and when rates get close to 0p%, the way you help the

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economy is more quantitive easing. It's difficult, I understand that,

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but the consequence of this is to help keep the economy going. As we

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saw, inflation is still above target but it's coming down.

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Manufacturing figures this morning 1% growth in December, that's good.

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Our trade deficit is at its smallest since 2003. So there is

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some good news. You say the Bank of England is independent. George

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Osborne cheerleads the bank in doing this, he's invented this

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phrase dtion monetary activism". -- "monetary activism". I come back to

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the point that you are monetising the debt. You are borrowing money

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paid for by money printed by the bank? Absolutely not. The bank is

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independent. Monetary activism. Doesn't matter whether they are

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independent or not, they are buying the debt. Of course it matters, you

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don't want politicians setting interest rates. What monetary

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activism means is you give the Bank of England the space to manage the

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economy by having a credible fiscal plan so everybody knows that we

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have the political will to deal with our debts as a country. Chris,

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I suspect if Labour was in power, you would be doing the same?

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not sure that we'd be in this particular hole. We are following

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the system set out by Alistair Darling. You have had a fair run

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now, Matthew. Do you support this? Anything that can support the

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economy. So you do? My point is, I don't think there's an ability to

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continue printing your way out of this particular hole. It's pretty

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desperate stuff when you end up having to have the Bank of England

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bailing out the Chancellor for his failure on growth and the key thing

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I think is this, Matthew says well printing money has a small effect

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on interest rates. As you said, it's absolutely the determinate of

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the low interest rates you've got printing your way to low interest

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rates is not a sustainable way forward. The difficulty with this

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point about saying the Bank of England are independent, well yes,

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they choose the amount of quantitive easing, but the

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Chancellor has to sign off the policy as well. Expecting the Bank

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of England to do all the heavy lifting on saving our economy and

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getting growth done, it's t not going to work. You are pushing on a

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string. Mr Hancock? I have o to respond to the partisan point. The

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system for ensuring that the Bank of England has the independence to

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take these decisions was set up by independence by Gordon Brown and

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then the independence over QE by Alistair Darling and that hasn't

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been changed. But that's been signed off by the Chancellor?

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Chancellor's always, whether Alistair Darling or George Osborne,

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has always signed off... A very important point. I'm not saying

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there isn't a place from time to time for quantitive easing, but the

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key they think is this. When we first had to do this back in 2009,

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George Osborne said that printing money was "the last resort of a

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desperate government". You were his Chief of Staff at the time. Did you

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advise him to stay that? We were in a desperate situation. Nobody

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really cares what he said then. was quite important. I don't care

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and I ask the questions. OK, well I care. As a Conservative,

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meant to encourage people to save, to build up their own property, a

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party that aspouzs a property- owning democracy, are you

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comfortable as a Conservative with a policy which is effectively

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state-imposed negative real interest rates? -- aspouses.

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state always has a role in the level of interest rates... Are you

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comfortable? The rates are not imposed by the state but the bond

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market, whether we like it or not. This is all level economics we are

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trying to teach you. Hardly. Do I think it's good that we have long-

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term interest rates at record lows? Yes I do because it's the biggest

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stimulus our economy could get and it would be under threat if we gave

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our... It's not stimulating the economy, we had �75 billion in

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October and our economy went into reverse in that quarter. You left

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us in a great big hole. Let me bring in Nigel Farage. Where are

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you on this? I understood why back in 08-08 09, QE was used because

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there was a real serious scare about the banks which has now gone.

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The savers are getting a rotten deal and the real problem is we are

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not dealing with the size of the debt. I know it's difficult, but we

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are not having any serious groth in the UK economy. They are the real

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problems that need to be addressed -- growth. You have some people

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saying we are cutting too fast, some people saying we are stum

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lating the economy. We are not cutting. -- stimulating. Some say

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you are not cutting enough, some say you are cutting too much. If

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you are criticised from both sides, you are normally in the right place.

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We are borrowing more than we are earning every year. Which must mean

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you are all wrong. We have an extreme over here, one over there

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and we are broadly down the middle and I feel comfortable in that

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place. Are you comfortable? Are you comfortable with Government

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spending, yes or no? No, no Government spending. Can I just

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point out that the several months ago, the Bank of England snuck out

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in small print of six point type that the effect of its quantitive

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easing so far had been to raise inflation by anything between 1 and

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2.6%. I think we can take it that it's closer to the 2.6 because the

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bank wanted to downplay the real effect. Are you comfortable with

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that? Inflation hits the poorest so you are squeezing savers in Middle

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England and hitting the poorest by putting that up? That's not what

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the Bank of England report said. I don't know whether you have read

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the report. Of course I have. showed that it boosted the economy.

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It also said it put up inflation by up to 2.5%, the same as the

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increase in VAT? So do you want the Bank of England not to manage the

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economy or do you want the Bank of England to manage the economy?

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want you to answer my question. These are difficult trade-offs. You

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can't ignore the debt. The same report was instructive because all

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the claims about low interest rates being caused by George Osborne was

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blown out of the water when the Bank of England said that around 1%

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of that low interest rate was caused by the printing of money.

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Printing of money, does it sound sustainable to you? We'll leave it

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there. The distinguished economic Editor of the Scotsman says this

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morning that the bank may end up I am going to leave with you now

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because Jo is about to do a story of which I have no interest! I am

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glad you stated your position there, Andrew. Was the England football

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managerks Fabio Capello right to rescission? I am an -- resign. I am

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an expert on this. This morning David Cameron said he was sorry to

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see Mr Capello Go, but the Sports Minister sounded less optimistic.

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The FA had no option, but to strip John Terry of the captaincy, not to

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prejudge the court case, but because it would have been

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impossible for him to discharge his responsibilities as captain of the

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England team with that hanging over him. It is a great shame that Fabio

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Capello has acted in the way that he has. If a player in his team had

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behaved in the way that he has behaved to the FA, he would have

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taken the toughest possible action and I'm delighted that the FA

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agreed with him that he should no longer be manager.

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David Thompson is in the House of Commons. David.

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Well, look forget about deficit reduction, what MPs want to talk

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about, who should be the next England manager and I am joined by

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Damien Collins, and Sir Bob Russell, Lib Dem and keen football fan.

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Damien, in a sense you have been part of this process and you were

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one of the first people to say that you thought that John Terry should

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be stripped of the captaincy while the court case was pending, are you

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happy with where we are now? Well, it was Fabio Capello's decision to

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resign. If he couldn't accept that John Terry's position had become

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untenable, it was right for him to go. Footballers and football, they

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are part of society. It is not just a sport. The England manager, just

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like the England captain is a public figure and we expect things

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of them and where we are maybe regrettable to many fans, but it

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has become inevitable and it was Capello's decision.

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Whatever the rights and wrongs of that case, we are four months away

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from a major European tournament without a manager. Have the FA

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handled this well? The FA don't handle anything well. The Football

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Association in this country is pretty useless and the way they

:18:35.:18:39.

have handled the last two England managers and this affair in

:18:39.:18:47.

particular, establish and confirms that the FA are a useless bunch.

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What should they do? They should never have had a foreign manager in

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the first place. The FA are not up to the job.

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OK. Do you think now that given we have had Svens and Fabios, do you

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think it is time for the manager to be if not English, from the British

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Isles? Their job is to a coach who has developed his career through

:19:15.:19:18.

the English coaching system. That would be a good thing. Someone who

:19:18.:19:22.

should understand the culture of football in our country maybe

:19:22.:19:27.

better than a coach brought inside particularly one that has never had

:19:27.:19:33.

any managerial experience in the UK. We need an English manager, we have

:19:33.:19:37.

got coalition consensus on something at least. Over to you.

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Consensus, I don't know, I'm moving on. Is that good or bad? I don't

:19:41.:19:46.

know. Consensus, what about you, do you think it should be an

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Englishman? I was astonished when this chap Capello was appointed. He

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earnt �24 million quid and he couldn't speak the English. Why

:19:58.:20:06.

don't we have somebody English running the English football team?

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Nobody could have done a worse job. I think Redknapp will be the next

:20:11.:20:15.

man, and good. OK, we have consensus. Everyone

:20:15.:20:19.

wants Harry, I think! Our guest of the day, Nigel Farage

:20:19.:20:22.

is the leader of the UK Independence Party still. He gave

:20:22.:20:27.

up the job for a bit when he stood against the Speaker John better cue

:20:27.:20:33.

at the -- Bercow at the last election. His successor wasn't seen

:20:34.:20:43.
:20:44.:20:44.

as a runaway suck success. Who could we send to investigate, Giles,

:20:44.:20:54.
:20:54.:20:56.

of course, our own Nigel looky Even before Nigel Farage first

:20:56.:21:02.

became leader of UKIP in 2006, a party he was involved in founding

:21:02.:21:07.

in the early 90s, people whispered the party was something of a one

:21:07.:21:11.

man show. As they built themselves to a regular feature of the

:21:11.:21:15.

political landscape, they, he would argue however flattering it is not

:21:15.:21:22.

true. A one time party candidate, now a Conservative MP disagrees.

:21:22.:21:26.

There is a cult around Nigel Farage and always has been for the last

:21:26.:21:31.

ten years. They follow him. They think he is a charismatic leader

:21:31.:21:33.

and his approach and manner is something that appeals to them.

:21:33.:21:41.

It is a reality, UKIP have become an electoral thorn in other parties

:21:41.:21:48.

sides. Nigel Farage led them and UKIP got the highest share of the

:21:48.:21:55.

vote. His attacks are praised and damned. You have the charisma of a

:21:55.:21:59.

damp rag and the appearance of a low grade bank clerk. The question

:21:59.:22:05.

I want to ask - who are you? I never heard of you. Nobody in

:22:05.:22:10.

Europe heard of you. He stood down as leader to fight

:22:10.:22:15.

the general election in John Bercow's seat. The leadership

:22:15.:22:19.

election show cased five candidates no one heard of and who Nigel

:22:19.:22:26.

wanted, Nigel gets. Only one of of them is a serious credible

:22:26.:22:32.

candidate and that's Lord Pearson. A year later he failed to win the

:22:32.:22:34.

Parliamentary seat and by enough to make some question his judgement.

:22:34.:22:38.

He was involved in an accident that shook him and fired him up for

:22:38.:22:42.

taking the leadership back. I have survived an aeroplane crash and if

:22:42.:22:47.

before that you thought I was bold, well I'm fearless now. I'm up for

:22:47.:22:53.

it, I want the job again. He won. His job will be to keep

:22:53.:23:03.

UKIP a political force in the face of growing Conservative scepticism.

:23:03.:23:06.

In the 90s they had serious thinking people on board who were

:23:06.:23:12.

trying to get an issue on the agenda in a sensible way and didn't

:23:12.:23:17.

see UKIP as a long-term project, saw it as a short-term thing.

:23:17.:23:20.

Their opponents may snigger, but there are people in UKIP who are

:23:20.:23:24.

smart and people who are charismatic and people who know how

:23:24.:23:28.

to stay on the right side of being a professional politician. The fact

:23:28.:23:32.

that Nigel Farage can do all three at a time when the party might be

:23:32.:23:35.

under pressure means they probably need him more than ever.

:23:35.:23:44.

No, thank you. I'm always told I Come to think of it, you don't.

:23:44.:23:49.

So you are a one-man band? Absolute nonsense.

:23:49.:23:59.
:23:59.:24:00.

No one heard of anyone else in the party? Last week one of your guests

:24:00.:24:06.

is in UKIP. I was looking this morning...

:24:06.:24:13.

not a politician. He bankrolls you. He used to bankroll the Tories.

:24:13.:24:18.

He bankrolled William Hague. When people like that take on senior

:24:18.:24:24.

roles, it says we are far more than a one-man band. We have women and

:24:24.:24:28.

women, barristers, shipbrokers, professional and competent people.

:24:28.:24:32.

There has been a change in UKIP. How many are standing in the

:24:32.:24:37.

elections? 25 in all. I'm confident that on our message,

:24:37.:24:44.

jobs and growth interestingly, we are so ham strung by EU law that we

:24:44.:24:49.

are not able to go out there and create jobs that we will do well.

:24:49.:24:54.

Giles said, "A party under pressure." Look in 2011 we made a

:24:54.:24:58.

lot of progress in the opinion polls. We started off at 2.5% to 3%,

:24:58.:25:04.

we finished at 7% to 7.5%. Public sees and you rate quite well

:25:04.:25:09.

in the polls as a leader, but the public sees you as a one-man band

:25:09.:25:14.

leading a one issue party? Well, that's unfair. I think... That's

:25:14.:25:20.

how they see you? There are people like my deputy who is only 34, a a

:25:20.:25:24.

Scouser who is is beginning to appear on more and more BBC

:25:24.:25:29.

programmes. There is three our four names.

:25:29.:25:34.

But not the younger ones in the party? Well, you know, get him on

:25:34.:25:37.

and we will get people elected to that London Assembly who are bright

:25:37.:25:42.

and young. You said in 2011 that had been

:25:42.:25:45.

amazing year and you went through your successes. What's the target

:25:45.:25:49.

for 2012? What will be another amazing year for you if you achieve

:25:49.:25:54.

what? Well, the thing we have to do this year, we have to win seats in

:25:54.:25:58.

the London Assembly. If we fail to do that, then 2012 will have been a

:25:58.:26:02.

failure. That's the big objective is to get people elected there. We

:26:02.:26:06.

will be continuing to fight by- elections, local elections, and you

:26:06.:26:11.

know, in Barnsley last year, we came second in the by-election in

:26:11.:26:14.

in Barnsley and I would look for that trend in the opinion polls to

:26:14.:26:18.

continue. We were up until the summit, where Cameron was thought

:26:18.:26:22.

to have vetoed something, we were running neck in neck with the Lib

:26:22.:26:26.

Dems and I I expect that trend to continue and I think we will get

:26:26.:26:30.

past them. Even The Greens have their MP in

:26:30.:26:36.

Brighton, you haven't managed that? Our support is is spread across the

:26:36.:26:42.

country. We don't have... Aren't the Greens spread across the

:26:42.:26:47.

country thinly? Absolutely not. The Greens do well in three or four

:26:47.:26:52.

big cities and poorly everywhere else. We tend to do respectively

:26:52.:26:57.

everywhere. We have got to built up -- build up a local base. There are

:26:57.:27:00.

areas where we have district and county councillors and those are

:27:00.:27:04.

the areas we have to work on. Like the Greens and the Lib Dems,

:27:04.:27:07.

you have to build that up from the ground up, that's more difficult?

:27:07.:27:12.

It is a heck of a job and I'm not pretending it is easy, but we are

:27:12.:27:15.

making progress. Let's look at the policy and beyond

:27:15.:27:22.

the one that you are famous for. What of an English Parliament? The

:27:22.:27:25.

Scots have a Parliament. The Welsh have a Parliament, what about an

:27:25.:27:30.

English assembly? Absolutely. We said we as a party believe in an

:27:30.:27:33.

English Parliament and I believe in a federal structure for the United

:27:33.:27:35.

Kingdom. Where would you put the English

:27:35.:27:39.

Parliament? It should be in the House of Commons. That's the

:27:39.:27:44.

British Parliament? I don't see any need for Scottish or Welsh or

:27:44.:27:48.

Northern Irish MPs to debate things that are English only issues and

:27:48.:27:52.

most of the business that is conducted there, tends to be on

:27:52.:27:57.

Irish only issues. We need to have a separate Parliament and the

:27:57.:28:00.

country if it stays a United Kingdom after the Scottish

:28:00.:28:05.

referendum, comes together in Westminster which will be the

:28:05.:28:08.

imperial Parliament for the UK? proposal that we are debating, it

:28:08.:28:11.

is not party policy is the House of Commons would be the English

:28:11.:28:15.

Parliament and the House of Lords which is in need of reform would

:28:15.:28:19.

become a union Parliament. That's the way we're going.

:28:19.:28:26.

Wouldn't it be good for regional policy if you put it in York?

:28:26.:28:31.

don't think there is there is appetite for yet more buildings and

:28:31.:28:35.

more MPs. What about High Speed Two, are you

:28:35.:28:39.

in favour of that? I am opposed to T it is a ridiculous price and it

:28:39.:28:43.

is the wrong route and it is astonishing that all three parties

:28:43.:28:49.

support it. I know this was agreed to in Brussels many, many years ago.

:28:49.:28:53.

I would have thought we could spend a fraction of the money upgrading

:28:53.:28:56.

the existing lines. Come the Scottish referendum if the

:28:56.:29:00.

question is along the the lines of do you think Scotland should be

:29:00.:29:02.

independent, how will you advice advice your supporters to vote?

:29:02.:29:06.

There has to be a debate in Scotland. Alex Salmond got away

:29:06.:29:08.

with murder. This idea that Scotland could be independent and

:29:08.:29:11.

part of a European Union, let's have that debate.

:29:11.:29:15.

How are you going to vote? I don't want the United Kingdom to break up,

:29:15.:29:20.

but I want it to change. Right, but you are the United

:29:20.:29:22.

Kingdom independence party, so you must be in favour of the United

:29:23.:29:28.

Kingdom? I am in favour of devolved powers. I don't see any

:29:28.:29:34.

inconsistency with that. The geny is is out of the bottle.

:29:34.:29:38.

We have more to discuss including Ken Livingstone and gays.

:29:38.:29:42.

We welcome viewers to BBC Scotland, they have been watching First

:29:42.:29:44.

Minister's Questions and they join the Daily Politics and we can bring

:29:45.:29:51.

you the news that in London, Ken Livingstone caused outrage. In an

:29:51.:30:00.

interview New Statesman magazine. He has been talk being the

:30:00.:30:10.
:30:10.:30:36.

Conservative Party's attitude to Great English! The best English, Mr

:30:36.:30:43.

Livingstone. We get your drift. Well, it's caused a row, as many

:30:43.:30:47.

things Mr Livingstone says. We are joined by Labour's Chris Bryant and

:30:47.:30:52.

the Conservative Mike Freer. Mike Freer, you first, he says it was a

:30:52.:30:56.

joke, he's known for shooting from the hip, you maybe make a mistake

:30:56.:31:01.

if you take him too seriously? Let's hope London doesn't make that

:31:01.:31:06.

mistake twice. On BBC this morning, he was asked did he use the wrong

:31:06.:31:12.

word. The local London talk station? Yes. Other than "riddled"?

:31:12.:31:19.

Yes. People always said "riddled with what". But on LBC he said no,

:31:19.:31:23.

he wouldn't change the word, he stood by the word so he didn't

:31:23.:31:25.

misspeak, he wasn't shooting from the hip, I think he knew exactly

:31:25.:31:31.

what he was saying. Chris Bryant, what's your take on it? The word

:31:31.:31:35.

"riddled" is pretty daft. I've read the full interview and it reads

:31:35.:31:41.

oddly. I'm not sure whether he's talking about hypocrisy riddling

:31:41.:31:47.

the Conservative Party in relation to... Or If you read it, he does

:31:47.:31:51.

mean gay. He actually says when people came out, they became

:31:51.:31:59.

ministers and that was great. He says that. I'm not a fan of this

:31:59.:32:04.

word "riddled" at all. It's unpleasant. However, I would say

:32:04.:32:07.

there is a bit of Fawkes outrage here because Mike was banging on

:32:07.:32:11.

yesterday about how terrible this was. I remember when Boris Johnson

:32:11.:32:15.

said that if two men should be allowed the marry, why not three

:32:15.:32:19.

men or for that matter three men and a dog. Mike Tweeted to said

:32:19.:32:24.

that was Ken that said that, it wasn't, it was Boris. I didn't say

:32:24.:32:32.

that's what condition said, I said it didn't sound like Boris --

:32:32.:32:39.

that's what when said. We are talking about Boris. What Boris

:32:39.:32:43.

said is that he said he doesn't care that the state determines what

:32:43.:32:47.

marriage is, basically he said two men, three men, one man and a dog,

:32:47.:32:53.

he doesn't care. How offensive is that. Homosexuality is the same as

:32:54.:32:58.

beastiality. He's saying he doesn't care. If Boris made these remarks

:32:58.:33:05.

of Ken, there would be a lot more outrage? Mike, you are a hypocrite

:33:05.:33:08.

because you are not prepared to own up to the fact you got this wrong

:33:08.:33:12.

yesterday. But what about this point? Boris said the Tory party

:33:13.:33:17.

used to be riddled with gays in the closet, if he said that, what would

:33:17.:33:22.

you feel? I dislike the word "riddled", however it's true that

:33:22.:33:25.

there were, I think it was horrible for many years in the Conservative

:33:25.:33:28.

Party as a gay man, we know that there are several men who've now

:33:28.:33:32.

come out who weren't able to do so, had to pretend to be something

:33:32.:33:36.

different and some of those have subsequently said they had to vote

:33:36.:33:40.

the wrong way against what they wanted to. Is that true? That was

:33:40.:33:44.

hypocrisy. The difficulty is, if you are a gai MP, previously as a

:33:44.:33:48.

Conservative, it was difficult. The Conservative Party couldn't run

:33:48.:33:51.

apart from gay men, it practically ran for Central Office, so there's

:33:51.:34:01.

a bit of let's balance the books. That's a bit suggestive. Chris is

:34:01.:34:06.

very good at standing up and accusing other people of homophobia.

:34:06.:34:11.

I want him to stand up to the home Phoebes in his own party, starting

:34:11.:34:16.

with Ken Livingstone. Livingstone is not a home Phoebe. I

:34:16.:34:20.

disagree with Ken using the word requests riddled" but he's not a

:34:21.:34:30.
:34:31.:34:34.

home Phoebe. He's battled for LGTB rights for years, even when it was

:34:34.:34:38.

- he's been there all the way through. Can I put a wider point to

:34:38.:34:43.

you that, almost every time a politician on the left or the right

:34:43.:34:49.

now goes kind of off piste in their language, they get slapped down.

:34:50.:34:55.

They get dragged on to this programme by you. We haven't got

:34:55.:35:00.

any of them on. Riddled or dragged, not too sure, just be careful. The

:35:00.:35:04.

point I'm making is if we carry on like this on the left and the right,

:35:04.:35:08.

we'll end up with politicss who sound like I speak your weight

:35:08.:35:14.

machines. You have heard that from either of us this morning have you?

:35:14.:35:19.

I'm tired of, if one of my party says something stupid, I'll stand

:35:19.:35:23.

up and shout them down, but the Labour Party expect them to be

:35:23.:35:29.

sacked, you know. That's a lie, that's a direct lie. Yesterday, you

:35:29.:35:33.

were saying that can't have been Boris that said about the equating

:35:33.:35:38.

homosexuality with beastiality. But you didn't then reply, did you?

:35:38.:35:44.

me bring in... I wonder whether voters in London are having this

:35:44.:35:48.

furious debate. They'll say, it's Ken Livingstone, he's been saying

:35:48.:35:56.

silly inoffensive things since the '70s. I think Ken likes to shock,

:35:56.:36:01.

offend, there's no need phone an argument. Isn't the truth that Ken

:36:01.:36:05.

Livingstone is wrong on both accounts, that just because you

:36:05.:36:12.

came out as lesbian or gay, you did not automatically get a job. That's

:36:12.:36:18.

definitely wrong as you will know. And although undoubtedly there were

:36:18.:36:22.

gay MPs in the Conservative Party who felt that they couldn't be

:36:22.:36:29.

openly gay, the party, to use his unfortunate word, wasn't "riddled"

:36:29.:36:34.

which implies 80-90% were gay, there were a minority and times

:36:34.:36:40.

were difficult for them so he's factually wrong on both. It's the

:36:40.:36:46.

contagion of riddled. We all don't like riddled. Shall we end on that

:36:46.:36:49.

agreement then? I don't think he was intending to shock anybody.

:36:49.:36:54.

Listen, he's looking at... going to give Mike Freer the final

:36:54.:36:58.

word because he's been the quitest. When the world is looking at London

:36:58.:37:07.

for the Olympics, the Paralympics, world pride, do we need

:37:07.:37:13.

Sanctimonious. I'm not, I've let you speak. Do we give a stuff what

:37:13.:37:21.

Ken Livingstone says outside London? I don't. Boris is the real

:37:21.:37:24.

homophobic one. Thanks for joining us and I think we should move on.

:37:24.:37:29.

Do you think that row would drag on, to use that unfortunate phrase?

:37:29.:37:32.

I don't think that got us anywhere, but it was good. Pretty much every

:37:32.:37:35.

local authority in the country is having to tighten the purse strings

:37:35.:37:39.

and find savings. But the BBC's found that many of them are also

:37:39.:37:42.

forking out millions in fines because they've missed their

:37:42.:37:52.
:37:52.:37:53.

European targets on recycling. It's bin day on this estate in

:37:53.:37:57.

Worcester. Last week, it was recycling. This week, there's only

:37:57.:38:03.

one place the city's rubbish is heading. The landfill site on the

:38:03.:38:09.

edge of town is home to 180,000 tonnes a year.

:38:09.:38:13.

But growing mountains of rubbish like these are costing the councils

:38:13.:38:17.

dear. All local authorities have to pay landfill taxes, essentially a

:38:17.:38:23.

Government fine to encourage them to hit European recycling rates.

:38:23.:38:28.

The problem is, despite the fact our councils are throwing less to

:38:28.:38:32.

landfill, the fines are rising. Even though more and more of us are

:38:32.:38:36.

recycling our rubbish, it's not enough to keep Brussels happy.

:38:36.:38:39.

you just look at the headline figure, you will see we are paying

:38:39.:38:42.

more tax there so we must be failing, but we are not, we are

:38:42.:38:48.

actually on track, we are managing to wean ourselves off it. The waste,

:38:48.:38:51.

it's a long-term plan, you can't change the system overnight but

:38:51.:38:54.

need to have a clear and positive strategy which we are working to

:38:54.:38:59.

year on year. And with budgets under more and more pressure, the

:38:59.:39:06.

landfill tax is proving a real headache. In the financial year

:39:06.:39:10.

2005-0106, Worcestershire County Council sent 262,000 tonnes to

:39:10.:39:16.

landfill and paid �3.4 million in tax.

:39:16.:39:22.

In 2010-2011, that waste fell to 127,000 tonnes, but the fine shot

:39:22.:39:29.

up to �5.8 million. At the same time, Shropshire paid �4.2 million

:39:29.:39:32.

and Gloucestershire, �7 million. The figures have caught the eye of

:39:32.:39:36.

MEPs on the continue net. It should be a matter for the Westminster

:39:36.:39:41.

Government and not for Brussels. We should be able to spend our money

:39:41.:39:45.

in a meaningful way and not be fined by the EU.

:39:45.:39:50.

But the reality is, if we are going to reduce our carbon emission and

:39:50.:39:53.

catch up with your European neighbours, the answer doesn't lie

:39:53.:40:00.

with holes in the ground. If people had understood earlier

:40:00.:40:04.

the drivers behind sustainability and taken on the Green Party

:40:04.:40:10.

message a bit more, then we could have avoided a lot of the pain of

:40:10.:40:14.

landfill tax. Whilst most agree landfill isn't

:40:14.:40:18.

the way forward, unless our councils stop burying rub Nish the

:40:18.:40:26.

ground, then they'll continue to throw away good money after bad.

:40:26.:40:29.

Natalie Bennett is a Green Party member and a journalist and she

:40:29.:40:33.

joins us now. It's the fines isn't it, in a time like this when there

:40:33.:40:37.

are massive cuts, should councils be paying fines if they miss their

:40:37.:40:40.

targets? The massive cuts are absolutely dreadful, that's hitting

:40:40.:40:44.

social services and those issues. So they shouldn't be fined? But the

:40:44.:40:48.

issue of waste is a separate issue that simply has to be dealt with.

:40:48.:40:52.

The situation is, it's the UK Government that decided what level

:40:52.:40:55.

these fines should be at and it's the UK Government that has to deal

:40:55.:40:58.

with this problem on a national level. We are going to run out of

:40:58.:41:02.

landfill spaces in eight years' time, there's nowhere to put it, we

:41:02.:41:06.

are using an area the size of Warwick to dump waste on which is

:41:06.:41:11.

great for seagulls but not humans. What we have also got to do is, the

:41:11.:41:15.

councils have to do better. they've made big improvements,

:41:15.:41:20.

they've been successful at reducing landfill which begs the question

:41:20.:41:26.

should they face fines of �64 a tonne, rising to �80 a tonne in

:41:26.:41:29.

2014. Worcestershire County Council faced a fine of almost �6 million

:41:29.:41:33.

last year, people will say at a time when libraries are closing,

:41:33.:41:37.

that is not a good use of money? But that council and the others

:41:37.:41:41.

with it have a chance to do much better. The councils being fined

:41:41.:41:46.

are the ones doing very poorly generally. There is a huge Sarah

:41:46.:41:51.

yoution between the council doing best with 66% and the worst at 14%,

:41:51.:41:58.

so the councils have a lot of this in their hand -- huge variation.

:41:58.:42:01.

What is the point of it all? This legislation was brought in to deal

:42:01.:42:05.

with the landfill question in areas like Belgium and the Netherlands

:42:05.:42:09.

which were in many cases below the water table. That's why the

:42:09.:42:13.

legislation? Brussels was put into place. It was never relevant or

:42:13.:42:18.

popt for the UK. -- appropriate. When we are going to run out in

:42:18.:42:20.

eight years? There are plenty of landfill sites out there, no

:42:20.:42:23.

mistake about that. What's happened is, because of the threat of fines,

:42:23.:42:27.

we have put people on to fortnightly bin collections across

:42:27.:42:31.

most of the UK and if we don't use landfill, we move towards

:42:31.:42:34.

incinerators which people will object to even more strongly.

:42:34.:42:37.

to your point that there isn't a need for it in the UK. Does this

:42:37.:42:41.

mean that there is? We can argue about how much landfill sites there

:42:41.:42:44.

are. Even if they came from Europe or the UK, surely they have to do

:42:44.:42:48.

something to reduce the amount of waste? The point is, this

:42:48.:42:52.

legislation was designed to deal with water table problems in the

:42:52.:42:57.

low countries, we are applying it to the enth degree, it isn't

:42:57.:43:01.

relevant to the UK, we should say to hell with it. We have a picture

:43:01.:43:07.

behind us at the moment, not sure viewers can see what a landfill

:43:07.:43:11.

looks like. It's an unpleasant nasty place good for seagulls, not

:43:11.:43:15.

humans. We want to reduce waste, that is a good target to have, it

:43:15.:43:20.

will improve our lives, no reason why we shouldn't be saying improve

:43:20.:43:26.

things. Fines are the way? We have to look also at a plastic bag tax.

:43:26.:43:31.

More taxs? And forcing the supermarkets to reduce the

:43:31.:43:34.

wonderful packages, where you get a piece of meet with plastic and

:43:34.:43:38.

container and more wrapping. You have to change the way we do those

:43:38.:43:42.

sorts of things and reduce to a lower waste. Thank you very much.

:43:42.:43:47.

I'm presuming you wouldn't support that either? No, I wouldn't. Funny.

:43:47.:43:51.

The Government Bill to reform the NHS in England is still causing

:43:51.:43:56.

ministers sleepless nights. For the lazier ones, it's causing them

:43:56.:43:59.

sleepless afternoons. Yesterday there was another defeat in the

:43:59.:44:01.

Lord's and if you were watching Prime Minister's Questions, you

:44:01.:44:11.
:44:11.:44:14.

THE SPEAKER: Ed pland Miliband. Speaker, isn't this interesting

:44:14.:44:21.

because he says this is all about reform. The Tory reform group has

:44:21.:44:29.

come out against these proposals. I have to say, Mr Speaker, it comes

:44:29.:44:33.

to something when even the Tories don't trust the Tories on the NHS.

:44:33.:44:40.

Let's look at the figures. 100,000 patients treated more every month,

:44:40.:44:45.

4,000 extra doctors since the NHS, the number of clinical staff up,

:44:45.:44:49.

the level of hospital acquired infections down, the number of

:44:49.:44:54.

people who are in mixed sex wards down by 94%. That is what is

:44:54.:44:58.

happening because you have got a combination of money going in and

:44:58.:45:01.

reform. He knows in his heart of hearts

:45:01.:45:06.

this is a complete disaster this Bill. That's why his aides are

:45:06.:45:09.

saying the Health Secretary should be taken out and shot because they

:45:09.:45:13.

know it's a disaster. I've got to tell him, the career prospects for

:45:13.:45:23.
:45:23.:45:24.

my right honourable friend are a Nik Darlington speaks for the Tory

:45:24.:45:28.

reform group and he joins us now. Mr Lansley seems like a man

:45:28.:45:34.

clinging to a timebomb that he can only not hear ticking? I didn't

:45:34.:45:38.

publish the article. The article was written by an independent

:45:38.:45:40.

contributor to the blog which I edit.

:45:40.:45:46.

You published it this then? Miliband miss represent that had

:45:46.:45:50.

article, -- misrepresent that had article. The article which was

:45:50.:45:58.

written by Craig Barratt is is pro reform.

:45:58.:46:05.

It said it was a timebomb where Mr Lansley couldn't hear ticking?

:46:06.:46:09.

believe in debate. Any party will have different opinions and it was

:46:09.:46:14.

right to put it on the blog. We have a disclaimer over the blog

:46:14.:46:17.

saying that the opinions of the individual contributors are not

:46:17.:46:23.

those of the Tory reform group. We released a statement saying we are

:46:23.:46:28.

pro reform. We want to introduce more competition to the NHS and

:46:28.:46:34.

Labour had 18 years to reform the NHS and did nothing. Ed Miliband

:46:34.:46:38.

misrepresented the article and misrepresented the Tory reform

:46:38.:46:43.

group's position. So you can say anything you want on

:46:43.:46:48.

the blog and it is not anything to do with the tOrm or the re-- Tory

:46:48.:46:53.

Party or the reform group? They are not the opinions of the Tory reform

:46:53.:47:01.

group. We want it there for a forum for debate. That happens in any

:47:01.:47:05.

party. I want people to have their opinion. I think that opinion

:47:05.:47:08.

deserved to be heard. Did you really flag it up as this,

:47:08.:47:15.

"Was not the view of the Tory reform group.". Yes.

:47:15.:47:24.

Where can I find out where the views of the Tory reform group?

:47:24.:47:28.

TRG is in favour of reforms. We support David Cameron and the

:47:28.:47:33.

coalition coalition and we were the first group to express support.

:47:33.:47:38.

I was looking on your website and I couldn't find it. I could find the

:47:38.:47:43.

attack, but not the support? attack was made by an individual

:47:43.:47:47.

contributor. . Where is the support bit? We we

:47:47.:47:50.

haven't had any reason to run anything on it in the month leading

:47:50.:47:55.

up to it. How many members has the Tory

:47:55.:47:59.

reform group got? I don't have that information with me.

:47:59.:48:03.

I thought that's who you represented? I am the editor of the

:48:03.:48:06.

Tory reform group blog. You don't know if it is thousands

:48:06.:48:14.

of people or a man and a dog in a back room in Battersea.? I can

:48:14.:48:18.

assure you it is not a man and a dog.

:48:18.:48:22.

Two dogs. It is a sizable organisation.

:48:22.:48:27.

I would suggest you send Mr Miliband a crate of champagne

:48:27.:48:33.

because you have had publicity? has been an interesting day. It

:48:33.:48:38.

shows the power of plit political blogs. I can't say it was

:48:38.:48:42.

comfortable to see it used in that forum, but I defend the right to

:48:42.:48:47.

publish it and I think that people have a right to be heard in a free

:48:47.:48:50.

debate. If other people in the Conservative Party don't want

:48:50.:48:57.

debate then they shouldn't criticise people like like Ken

:48:57.:49:00.

Clarke. Maybe you will get more members.

:49:00.:49:08.

There has been speculation about whether Andrew Lansley will end up

:49:08.:49:14.

paying for this with his job. Mehdi Hasan joins us now. Is it wise to

:49:14.:49:17.

misrepresent in that way on a subject that Labour Labour seems to

:49:17.:49:21.

be doing well in? Not at all. It led to a great line about the

:49:21.:49:27.

Tories not believing the Tories on health. Let's talk about NHS

:49:27.:49:35.

misrepresentation in debates. David Cameron misrepresented Labour's

:49:35.:49:40.

position on private income for hospitals. He said waiting lists

:49:40.:49:44.

were down when they are up. It is fair game? It is understandable

:49:44.:49:47.

game. What about looking at Andrew

:49:47.:49:50.

Lansley, the Government gets its Hillary Clinton Bill through,

:49:50.:49:54.

patched -- Health Bill through, patched up and with its amendments

:49:54.:49:59.

and there is a reshovel. Is there - - reshuffle. Is there any point of

:49:59.:50:03.

getting rid of Andrew Lansley? there is a point.

:50:03.:50:09.

If your argument is that Lansley has done badly because he hasn't

:50:09.:50:11.

communicated this is the line in the briefings take him out and

:50:11.:50:14.

shoot him, you could argue it doesn't make sense because the Bill

:50:14.:50:18.

is through. But if you think the problem is the Bill and the chaos

:50:18.:50:21.

that it is going to bring to the NHS, the only way you can try and

:50:21.:50:26.

have some fresh start when the problems start kicking in from

:50:26.:50:30.

increased bureaucracy, from closing hospitals and people complaining

:50:30.:50:38.

about postcode Lottery, the thing is to get rid of the man who

:50:38.:50:40.

authorised the Bill. If it is about a lack of

:50:40.:50:43.

communication, that doesn't mean that the Prime Minister doesn't

:50:43.:50:46.

support the essence of the Bill and the essence of reform. I put to you

:50:46.:50:50.

again, I know what you think, but it is not worth David Cameron

:50:50.:50:53.

sacrificing his Health Secretary when he agrees with the essence of

:50:53.:50:58.

reform? If this Bill creates chaos as some suspect it will, in the NHS,

:50:59.:51:05.

then the Prime Minister, he is at his most ruthless and decisive when

:51:05.:51:15.

he is saving his own skin. I think he will get rid of Lansley. Health

:51:15.:51:18.

secretaries don't have long life expectancy.

:51:18.:51:23.

Nigel Farage, let's go back to the Bill. Is there there going to be a

:51:23.:51:28.

U-turn. Everyone says we have gone too far, do you agree? I think they

:51:28.:51:31.

will continue with this reform, whether it is good or bad, I'm not

:51:31.:51:35.

sure. I think we need a bigger debate about the NHS, about the

:51:35.:51:39.

fact that since Labour came to power and made the increases in the

:51:39.:51:43.

increase in money, we put more money, we haven't got an increased

:51:43.:51:46.

service and I wonder whether the real debate we need is whether it

:51:46.:51:50.

is time for us to move towards an insurance based system.

:51:50.:51:54.

The real terms increase is eroded and whether it will be a real terms

:51:54.:51:58.

increase is yet to be seen over the years... We don't know that yet. It

:51:58.:52:01.

is about money in the sense that we are trying to squeeze �20 billion

:52:01.:52:05.

in efficiency between now and 2015 and at that time, you are carrying

:52:05.:52:08.

out a costly �3 billion reorganisation which you said you

:52:08.:52:12.

wouldn't. On the point about U- turns, the Health Service Journal

:52:12.:52:19.

editor who came out against this, says he hears from senior civil

:52:19.:52:22.

servants they are considering a Plan B, something that has not been

:52:22.:52:27.

written down. If there is a Plan B, the man who identified Plan A,

:52:27.:52:32.

condition be the -- can't be the one who pushed it out. I can't see

:52:33.:52:39.

Andrew Lansley being the man carrying out Plan B.

:52:39.:52:42.

The European Central Bank kept interest rates at 1% too. So no

:52:42.:52:47.

change there either. The same with the Bank of England keeping ours at

:52:47.:52:53.

0.5%. What is it about politicians and their bikes? It is a beautiful

:52:53.:52:59.

day for a bike ride. So was yesterday, I thought.

:52:59.:53:02.

# I'm going to ride my bike until I get home

:53:03.:53:07.

# I'm going to ride my bike until I get home #

:53:07.:53:11.

Yes, there is not much that stops the Prime Minister as he whizzes

:53:11.:53:15.

down Whitehall, pedestrians diving for cover. Every politician wants

:53:15.:53:20.

to enhance their fitness and green credentials by being at least

:53:20.:53:24.

photographed with one! There is news from Paris that cyclists are

:53:24.:53:28.

going to have freedom that none of this lot dreamed of. They will be

:53:28.:53:34.

allowed to skip red lights completely. Well, with me now Tony

:53:34.:53:36.

Armstrong from Living Street a charity that stands up for

:53:36.:53:41.

pedestrian rights. And the London editor of the Telegraph, a keen

:53:41.:53:47.

cyclist, Andrew Gilligan. Given most schoolists I see, what's

:53:47.:53:52.

the change? It is recognising reality, isn't it? Cyclists go

:53:52.:53:55.

through red lights. I go through them. I went through a couple on

:53:56.:54:01.

the way here. I I hope you crawled through.

:54:01.:54:05.

zoom through a couple, but only when there is no pedestrians.

:54:05.:54:09.

How did you know there wasn't a car coming? Well, because you can see.

:54:09.:54:14.

You look before you cross. Many said that and ended up in the

:54:14.:54:19.

hospital. It is safer in lots of cases to go through red lights if

:54:19.:54:22.

you are a cyclist because you don't get caught up in the crossing

:54:22.:54:25.

traffic. Isn't there a danger of hitting a

:54:25.:54:29.

pedestrian stood on the road and across me comes a cyclist through

:54:29.:54:34.

the red light. And that's wrong. I wouldn't do that if it was a

:54:34.:54:36.

pedestrian. You don't always know when they are

:54:36.:54:40.

stepping out. What do you think Just because it

:54:40.:54:43.

exists at the moment, doesn't make it right to officialise it and

:54:44.:54:47.

institutionalise it. The fear for pedestrians is something that is a

:54:47.:54:50.

major concern. Lots of our supporters get in touch and say

:54:50.:54:53.

they feel fearful about crossing the streets because cyclists just

:54:53.:54:58.

zoom. On the way into work this morning, I was cycling and a

:54:58.:55:02.

cyclist went past three through a pedestrian green man phase. It is

:55:02.:55:05.

not in the name of safety, but purely because they can't be

:55:05.:55:08.

bothered to stop. I dispute that. If you are caught

:55:08.:55:11.

up in traffic from a red light and you are a cyclist and you are small

:55:11.:55:15.

and vulnerable. If you go ahead of the light then you are not caught

:55:15.:55:20.

up in that traffic. So you would like to see a trial... I would love

:55:20.:55:29.

to see a trial of what happens in Paris and what the reason the par

:55:30.:55:35.

Parisan authorities, they recognise the safety arguments of cyclist

:55:35.:55:38.

outweigh the dangers to pedestrians. You describe people being afraid.

:55:38.:55:42.

There is little data on cyclist being hit by pedestrians who go

:55:43.:55:47.

through red lights. Cyclists are more menaced by other vehicles than

:55:47.:55:51.

we menace pedestrians. You are shaking your head.

:55:51.:55:56.

I have to say, I'm irritated with cyclists. I live in a small country

:55:56.:56:01.

lane on the North Downs it used to be lovely on Sundays, now we have

:56:01.:56:04.

people wearing a colourful kit cycling around the place which is

:56:04.:56:08.

fine, but they go two abreast in the road and think they own the

:56:08.:56:12.

place and when you try and overtake them, they abuse you. I get a

:56:12.:56:15.

feeling that cyclist in the country and in the town think they have a

:56:15.:56:19.

different set of laws that apply to them and this would be the wrong

:56:19.:56:24.

signal to send out. I think they should be tougher on cyclists and

:56:24.:56:27.

the way they behave. You would be against a trial?

:56:27.:56:31.

would be against a trial. Lots of things can be put in place to

:56:31.:56:35.

improve safety for pedestrians and cyclists and this won't do this. We

:56:35.:56:39.

need to bring manners and civil yilt on to our streets and people

:56:39.:56:44.

just feel as if everyone is in it for themselves. What about

:56:44.:56:48.

pedestrians going through the red man? If you are on a vehicle, if

:56:48.:56:51.

you are on a car, you have more responsibility if you are moving at

:56:51.:56:54.

speed. What about going through a red man?

:56:54.:57:01.

It is about respect. Everyone should look where they are going.

:57:01.:57:06.

Should people be prevented from doing that? People on foot aren't

:57:06.:57:12.

travelling at speed, whereas people on vehicles are. We need to re-

:57:12.:57:19.

educate people on cycles and motor vehicles as well.

:57:19.:57:23.

Where would you dot best? I would have a rule if a pedestrian

:57:23.:57:31.

crossing was red and there were no no pedestrians crossing and you

:57:31.:57:41.
:57:41.:57:42.

could do it. The prench did in -- the French did it in Strasbourg and

:57:42.:57:51.

Nante. What is it about these capital cities, "not many, dead, we

:57:51.:57:58.

shall try it.". On a road near me, some of the of the traffic lights

:57:58.:58:06.

shouldn't be there. There are pedestrian crossings when there are

:58:06.:58:11.

no pedestrians crossing. Time to put you out of your misery and pick

:58:11.:58:15.

a winner for yesterday's Guess the Year competition. 1953 was the

:58:15.:58:19.

answer. Nigel, make somebody's day, they will win a mug.

:58:19.:58:26.

Lucky them. Lucky, lucky, lucky. It is Richard Batstone from

:58:26.:58:30.

Warrington. . You win a Daily Politics mug!

:58:30.:58:36.

That can't be bad, can it? We thank all our guests. Thank you to Nigel

:58:36.:58:40.

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