Browse content similar to 10/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He says it's time for David Cameron to drop or at least emasculate the | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
health reform Bill or risk disaster at the next election. | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
We will be joined live by health Minister. | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
Should we ignore the rulings of European judges and kick Abu Qatada | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
out of the country? All three main parties want him | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
deported. But the European Court is more worried about his human rights. | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
Labour's leader in the Lords says Nick Clegg and David Cameron should | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
drop their plans to reform the House of Lords. Helpful advice or a | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
sraeled threat? We will ask her. | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
:01:41. | :01:41. | ||
And, how prepared are we for is worried the Government hasn't | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
:01:51. | :01:54. | ||
learned the lessons. All that coming newspaper the next | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
will see this on no other channel, for which the other channels are | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
grateful. With me Andrew Pierce and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. I | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
don't know if you know, it's Andrew's birthday. Happy birthday. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
I will go easy on you. 24 again! Thank you so much. | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
First, let's talk about bank bonuses, why not, we seem to do it | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
every day. Barclays has published its full-year results and given | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
details of bonuses handed out to staff. The bank, whose chief | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
executive is Bob diamond, he's reported a 3% fall in profits to a | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
mere �5.9 billion for last year. Mr Diamond says the total bonus pool | :02:31. | :02:41. | |
for the group is also down by 25%. tell ITV what he was going to do | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
with it either. There are reports that he is entitled to arpbtd -- | :02:46. | :02:55. | |
take all that remains to be seen. Barclays not owned by the state. | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
so we don't have any call to give them a hard time one way or the | :02:59. | :03:07. | |
other. I wonder, still benefiting from the implicit state guarantee | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
it won't go bust. The problem is, I mean, if you want to talk logically, | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Barclays will say we never had a bail-out, we went to the Saudis. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
The Qataris. We are fine, let us get on with our own business. As | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
soon as you start having these bonuses and everybody scrutinising | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
them carefully, people will come through your business practice with | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
a fine toothcomb and there is no large business in the country that | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
hasn't benefited in some way, either from the financial | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
underwriting of the Government, or from low wages which are | :03:39. | :03:47. | |
supplemented or from a whole raft of things. You know, so basically, | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
it's a toxic issue, it will be impossible for a bank to take what | :03:52. | :04:02. | |
:04:02. | :04:04. | ||
a member of public would think was matter for the shareholders and the | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
company. But we just point out that if he gets �1 million bonus, we the | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
taxpayer will get �520,000 of it. Cameron is not going to do that. | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
Why doesn't he, we get more hapb hapb half -- more hapb half the | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
bonus. Ed Miliband made the speech last night reminding people that | :04:24. | :04:32. | |
guarantee, therefore, we all as taxpayers have a stake in the bank | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
and they should pay what is seen as reasonable. I had a wonderful | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
letter from a reader who had written to Lord Ash, head of BP in | :04:42. | :04:52. | |
:04:52. | :04:53. | ||
1995 complaining about his bonus bonuses so they can buy wonderful | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
things and go on wonderful holidays. That may seem disproportionate to | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
you but I can assure you it is a business necessity. We used to call | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
that trickle down. It shows the trickle down rhetoric is so | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
disgusting. There is a tick nickical point that's -- technical | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
point point which is important if I was a shareholder, which I am not, | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
the profits of just shy of �6 billion, the bonus billion of �2 | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
billion, that's a big percentage of the profits at a time when banks | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
are under pressure to recapitalise balance sheets, which if do you | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
that the share price would get stronger, so if I was a shareholder | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
I wouldn't be too happy. If you look at the actual stats for | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
shareholders in all businesses, they used to hold shares for an | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
average of five years, now three and a half months, they're not that | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
emotionally invested in the business shares in. They're paying | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
massive bonuses to each other but still not lending money to small | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
and medium-sized businesses. They haven't met the targets. Barclays | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
says it has done better. What did you get for your birthday? | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
haven't opened my presents yet. That's coming later. We have a quiz | :06:04. | :06:13. | |
lined up for you, it's our present. Which of these does not want to be | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
a new police commissioner. The Iraq veteran Tim Collins, | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
Falklands veteran Simon Weston or political veteran John Prescott, we | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
will give you the answer later in the show. | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
Are the health reforms for England as bad for the coalition as the | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
poll tax was for Thatcher? Not my words, but those of a Conservative | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
cabinet Minister according to the influential right leaning blogger | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
Tim Montgomery. This morning he published an article for the | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
Conservative home blog, read by a lot of Tory grass roots, saying any | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
problems the NHS will face in the future will now be unfairly blamed | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
on the Bill and a Bill that is not evenly o only mangled and | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
bureaucratic but unnecessary. He goes on to say the Bill is an | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
unexploded bomb beneath the Tories' electoral prospects. Cameron must | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
defuse it. The health Bill is having a tough | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
time in the House of Lords where the Government's made 136 changes. | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
There's concern this won't be enough to appease some Liberal | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
Democrat peers. Labour is to stage an all-day debate in the Commons on | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
February 22nd on the bill. So, what are the bill's chances of | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
now. Welcome back to the daily politics. | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
You have been encouraged to do this by three cabinet Ministers? That's | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
right. There was a very important piece in Tuesday's Times by Rachel | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
Sylvester which... Which you the srael, not on Liberal Democrat | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
disquiet about the Bill which we have been familiar with but Tory | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
disquiet and she quoted a Tory insider in Downing Street who | :08:04. | :08:14. | |
:08:14. | :08:16. | ||
talked about Andrew Lansley having to be taken out and shot. I was | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
approached -. I began a ring around and was able to establish the | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
extent of unhappiness amongst a lot of Conservatives at the health Bill. | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
I think Conservative home was meant to represent the grass roots, not a | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
hotline for distressed cabinet Ministers. Maybe we can do both. | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
The Tory grass roots seem to be in Conservatives would like to see the | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
National Health Service reformed, the question is do we have all the | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
pre-conditions in place to make this a successful reform. Do we | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
have a health saeg who has the confidence of the professions, who | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
is able to communicate these reforms in a compelling way? Have | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
we prepared the public for reform? Have we got a Whitehall machine | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
that's on side? I don't think these pre-conditions exist. None of these | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
pre-conditions were there there from the start. What has changed... | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
Why didn't you say it then? Some of us were surprised when this health | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
Bill came forward at the beginning. But... You weren't alone in that. | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
We could see the case for it. Over time, you have just talked about | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
the scale of amendments, it's become more mangled, more | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
bureaucratic. Further detached from purpose. The headline, The Guardian | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
report and others that have followed on your your article, say | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
when I read it you don't really want to kill it, you want to | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
emasculate it. That's closer to the truth. I believe it needs to be | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
killed as far as the public are Bill, like the public health die | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
mention, that could -- die mention that could enjoy support. The | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
Government is doing enough incredibly important things on | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
schools and welfare and the deficit, that's what it should be focused on. | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
It doesn't need to be distracted by this health reforms as well. What | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
do these cabinet Ministers want to you do? I think I have done what | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
they wanted me to do. They're hiding behind you? Well, you were | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
editor of the Sunday Times, you know how this works, a lot of | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
people do not want to put their head above the phet, I have | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
reported this. Are there more than three on the Conservative side? | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
spoke to a lot of people after these approaches and I couldn't | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
find others. Others thought it was too late now to retreat and we had | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
to go on with the reform. These Ministers, just to clarify, these | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
Ministers and perhaps others, these cabinet Ministers, they want the | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
Bill to be emasculated or... Exactly, what I cannot find is any | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
senior Tory, any MP who thinks that this is either been handled well or | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
some think we still need to progress, because to retreat is the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
worst outcome, it's a terrible mess. I think I found a Tory that may | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
just fit that Bill. Andrew Lansley? Not yet, almost. Tim Montgomery, | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
thank you for joining us. We are joined from Chelmsford by Simon | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
Burns, the health Minister. Three cabinet Ministers briefing a | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
Conservative blog against your boss. Downing Street letting it be known | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
that someone there wants to take your boss out to be shot. Can you | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
ever remember any cabinet Minister being briefed against by his own | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
mates like this? No, but what you are referring to is tittle tattle | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
that appeared in the press in recent days and in the blog on | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
Conservative Home. But what is important and we must not lose | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
sight of, is the importance of modernising the NHS because, | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
frankly, what is the key component of the modernisation is having the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
patient and the patient's interests at the heart of the NHS and the | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
treatment of that patient, improving the quality of care and | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
the standard of treatment for that patient, cutting out the | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
bureaucracy in the NHS and getting greater integration of services so | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
that we can have a more cost- effective delivery of service with | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
improved standards so that the money that is generated, which will | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
be about �4.5 billion between now and the next general election, that | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
will be completely invested in frontline services. That's the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
important issue. I understand, and I want to come back to the | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
substance of your reform in a minute. Let me clarify something, | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
are you saying that when three cabinet Ministers brief a well | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
known Conservative website against your Minister and his reforms, that | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
that's just tittle tattle? I am saying that is tittle tattle | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
because what is far more important is it is quite clear the Prime | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
Minister has made it clear that he supports the modernisation | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
programme, and that the Bill will continue because the NHS needs the | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
legislation to be able to modernise to meet the challenges it is facing | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
through an ageing population, massively increasing drugs Bill and | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
improved medical science. If what you say about these reforms is true | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
and it will result in a better health service, as you in your view | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
have outlined, why have you managed to unite almost every professional | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
health group in the country against you? Well, if you look at the | :13:49. | :13:56. | |
responses from the Royal colleges, the BMA, the RCN -- RCN, when they | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
responded to the White Paper, responded to recommendations that | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
the future forum made that we adopted and amenned the Bill to | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
take into account last June, there were elements of the legislation | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
that they liked, for example, the BMA voted at its special general | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
meeting last summer that in favour of GP commissioning, which is a | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
core component of the legislation. But it's against the Bill? | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
minute, if you look at the surveys that have been based on taking | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
decisions by, for example, the Royal College of GPs, it's not | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
representative. 8% of members of that Royal College took part, it is | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
a self-selecting opinion poll and people could multiple vote. | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
understand that. It was not the poll that would stand up if you had | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
a political one trying to determine which party had what support in the | :14:52. | :15:00. | |
country. I understand that. I have not used the poll. That shows | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
distorted basis. The people who run the Royal College of Nurses, of | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
Midwives, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
GPs are all against the Bill and the Prime Minister said change, if | :15:13. | :15:22. | |
it is to endure, if it's really to people who work in the NHS. We have | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
to take our nurses and doctors with us. By that criteria you have | :15:26. | :15:35. | |
I disagree. As you have acknowledged earlier, in your | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
statement, those surveys were flawed, and what is more important, | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
I go around the country, I meet GPs' who are now actually engaged | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
in commissioning care with PCTs, and they are enthusiastic about the | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
fact that they are now empowered to take decisions to provide the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
finest quality care for patience, because of the modernisation this | :16:03. | :16:11. | |
will give them. That is more important. Are you seriously | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
telling us that if a proper opinion poll was done of nurses, doctors, | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
clinicians, midwives, there would be substantial support for your | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
reforms, is that what you're claiming? No, what I'm saying... | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
That is what you were implying. what I'm saying is that the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
important judgment of what people think of the modernisation | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
programme can be judged by speaking to those who are carrying it | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
through on the ground. GPs, who are part of clinical Commission groups, | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
who are now working with primary care trusts to commission care for | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
their patients. And if you speak to them, you will find they are far | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
more enthusiastic than you have been led to believe by the press | :16:56. | :17:06. | |
:17:06. | :17:12. | ||
and comments on blocs. That is only anecdotal evidence. If I meet and | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
talk to people, it is anecdotal, it may be right, it may be wrong. But | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that you have not | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
carried the health professionals with you, you have not carried the | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
Liberal Democrats with you, you cannot even carry Alan Milburn with | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
you, and now you cannot carry parts of the Cabinet with you - it is not | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
a great result, is it? As I keep saying, there are a number of | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
organisations within the NHS which have not mentioned which to support | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
the modernisation. The Royal College of gynaecologists, the | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
family doctors' Association, the National Association of primary | :17:50. | :18:00. | |
:18:00. | :18:01. | ||
care, all do. They all support the bill? Yes, they do. And you have | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
seen that, even though it gets lost in the telling. The key thing which | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
I keep coming back to his, if you go and speak to GPs on the ground... | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
You have made that point very well, you have made it twice, actually. I | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
would be grateful if you could send us press releases from these | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
organisations, coming out in favour of the bill, and we will put them | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
up on our website. That would be very interesting to see that. Just | :18:30. | :18:38. | |
finally, the constant complaint is that your boss, Andrew Lansley, has | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
not sold this bill well. So, if you were given 30 seconds to tell us | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
just the headline of why the Health Service will be better in five | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
years' time than it is now, it is yours... Thank you. Patients are at | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
the heart of the modernisation, giving them increased care, | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
improved care, Greater outcomes, cutting bureaucracy, so the money | :19:03. | :19:11. | |
can be put back into health care, and moving forward, making sure | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
that you do not have political micro management of the Health | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
Service by politicians and civil servants in Whitehall, but you | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
allow practitioners on the ground around the country to take | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
decisions in the best interests of patients. That was a little more | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
than 30 seconds, but we are very fair on this programme. Thanks for | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
joining us from Essex. What did you make of that? It is such a car | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
crash, isn't it? This morning I was trying to step outside my political | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
identity and imagine what it is like to be David Cameron. I thought | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
you were going to say Andrew Lansley. It is incredibly difficult | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
for them, it is absolutely toxic. This whole idea that the country | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
wants civil servants to be removed from healthcare, nobody came into | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
this election thinking, civil servants are involved in my health | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
care. They have concocted a completely false problem that | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
nobody had, and now they have devised a sledge hammer to solve it. | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
I would suggest that these three Cabinet members which Tim | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
Montgomerie was talking about are kind of malicious in this, because | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
if they really think this, they should stand up and be counted, and | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
also, it is a bit late, is it not? The legislation is now back in the | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
House of Lords, and I suspect what they're privately wishing for will | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
be that the legislation will be defeated in the House of Lords, and | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
then the Government can move away and say, we tried. But before the | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
general election, David Cameron said, there will be no unnecessary, | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
top-down reorganisation of the NHS. After the election, Andrew Lansley, | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
the Secretary of State for Health, a friend of David Cameron, which is | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
part of the problem, says it is the biggest and most radical shake-up | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
of the NHS since 1948 - what changed after the election? | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
person said, this would be like, if my editor said, you go away for a | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
year and think up whatever story you like and then come back and we | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
will put it on the front page. And then five minutes later, before you | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
go on to press, -- and then five minutes before you go to press, | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
they say, no, it is rubbish. think it will go through? I think | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
it will be badly battered, but as some Tories are saying, this is | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
going to turn out to be David Cameron's big test. I think it | :21:40. | :21:50. | |
:21:50. | :21:54. | ||
could be the thing which crucify as the coalition, and then... We have | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
to move on. There's a Row as you all know about what to do about Abu | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
Qatada, which is rumbling on. On Monday, the President of the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
Special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled that the radical, | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
some might say extremist - did I say that? - Islamist cleric should | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
be freed on strict bail conditions, because his deportation had been | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
blocked by the European Court of Human Rights. And the judge, Mr | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Justice Mitting, has said that even those strict bail conditions could | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
be revoked within three months, unless British officials make | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
progress on a new deal with Jordan. Last night, the Defence Secretary, | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
Philip Hammond, outlined the Government's position. We are going | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
through the process to try to see if we can get him back there. The | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
Prime Minister has spoken to the King of Jordan this afternoon. A | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
Home Office minister will be going out there next week. We are trying | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
to establish with the Jordanians a set of assurances which will | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
satisfy the court that we can send him back. This is not a good place | :23:02. | :23:10. | |
for us to be, but the best thing... Which caught is this? | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
Immigration Appeals Tribunal here, to allow us to send him back to | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
Jordan. With us now, the Conservative MP Mark Reckless, and | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of Terrorism legislation. | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
Mark Reckless, what would you like to do with Abu Qatada, what do you | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
think should be done with him? would like to send him back to | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
Jordan, everyone is agreed he is a very dangerous man. He came here in | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
1993, applied for asylum, he has gone through every avenue. Our own | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
highest court has determined that he can be sent back to Jordan. | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
would you do that, would you whisk him out in the middle of the night? | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
If the Government announced that it was going to defy the European | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
Court, the Government would immediately be injected by Abu | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
Qatada's lawyers. Well, I understand the Prime Minister has | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
spoken with the king of Jordan. if there is not an arrangement, how | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
would you send him back? You said we would be injected, but actually, | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
what Mr Justice Mitting said was that we could not send him back | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
without taking on the political and reputation will cost, whatever that | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
might be, of defying a European Court judgment. We have had a | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
decision by our own highest court that he can be sent back. | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
understand that, but it am asking you about the practicalities, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
because unless you whisky about in the middle of the night, his | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
lawyers, if you announce you're going to do it regardless of the | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
Strasbourg ruling, would immediately be on to it, and you | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
would have to wait for that action. I'm not sure, because the | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Government would be acting contrary to an international treaty | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
commitment, but it would be acting in line with the judgment of our | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
highest court year. It has become clear that the Strasbourg court has | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
gone so far off where it was, and is no longer I think a serious or | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
credible court, that it is not unreasonable for the Government to | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
act on the basis of what our court has said. David Anderson, if the | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
Government decided, regardless of the Strasbourg court, if there is | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
not another deal done in the desert, with the Jordanians, we're going to | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
send him back, could they just do that, or would they face more legal | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
action which could delay them doing that? They could certainly face | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
legal action, the outcome of which nobody knows. More fundamentally | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
you have got to decide whether you want to be bound by this court will | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
not. If you want to be bound by it, you cannot pick and Jewish which | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
judgements to abide by. Suddenly pick and choose. From time to time, | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
a judgment is not complied with. Prisoners' voting, from 1995, we | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
have not complied with that one. But in general, they are complied | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
with. But the French and Italian equivalents of Abu Qatada were sent | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
back to other countries, even though the court heard ruled | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
against doing so. And last time I looked, the French and Italians | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
still have one judge each in the Strasbourg court, as part of the 47. | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
That's quite true. At the end of the day, the enforcement mechanism | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
of the court is a political one, through the Committee of Ministers. | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
If a state is continually in breach, then you get into difficult | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
territory. Russia is continually in breach, but it is still a member. | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
It has got a surprisingly good record, on most cases. There are | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
several hundred Russian cases which are in breach at the moment. Turkey | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
has more than Moldavia, and almost as many as Russia. But they are all | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
members of the court. The last president, in his farewell speech, | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
put it fairly well - governments are often reluctant to comply, but | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
they generally get round to it in the end. The criticism from Britain | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
is that the Strasbourg court changed the goalposts. Article | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
three, Against torture, there are no caveats on that, and the British | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
Government went to the Jordanians to get an agreement that he would | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
not be tortured if sent back. That then went before the Strasbourg | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
court again, and the court said, yes, we will have that, we accept | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
that, but oh, hold on, he also cannot face any evidence which has | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
been extracted by torture. To which, we said, you have never mentioned | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
that before. Well, last time Abu Qatada went on trial in Jordan, he | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
was convicted and the evidence of two men who had been tortured, they | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
had been drugged, beaten on the soles of their feet. What the | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
Strasbourg court was saying was that, if you want to send him back | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
again, please can you get an Assurance first from Jordan that it | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
will not happen again. Far from moving the goalposts, all it was | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
doing was saying exactly what our own Court of Appeal had said in | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
2008. A excuse me, the Court of Appeal was overruled by the Supreme | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
Court. It was indeed. You always mention the Court of Appeal, you | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
never mention the Supreme Court. You did the same on the Today | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
Programme. You know better than I, the Supreme Court is superior to | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
the Court of Appeal - why do you do that? I was addressing the question | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
of, was the Court of Human Rights coming out of left field with | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
something completely absurd and unprecedented? No, it wasn't. It | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
was applying the law, as well understood. If we cannot get an | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
agreement on evidence gained by torture, which satisfied the | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
European Court -- satisfies the European Court, is it your view | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
that we should withdraw from the European Court? Yes, it is, but we | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
should take as many people with us as possible. That means trying to | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
go through due process. David Cameron is trying to get reform of | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
the court, and that is going to be very difficult to get that agreed | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
by the 47. But by doing everything possible, it will then strengthen | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
the ground, were we to find it necessary to leave the court. | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
you remind our viewers of the only other European country which is not | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
a member of the European Court? only other European country is | :29:30. | :29:40. | |
:29:40. | :29:41. | ||
Bella Russia. Which is also the last totalitarian state. But other | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
countries not that far short of the Munros are appointing judges who | :29:45. | :29:55. | |
:29:55. | :30:00. | ||
are overruling our own Supreme Court. -- short of Belorussia. One | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
of our law lords then says, no-one is suggesting that you cannot send | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
anyone abroad just because their standards are not as good as ours. | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
I'm afraid that is what the European Court is saying. We need | :30:10. | :30:20. | |
:30:20. | :30:23. | ||
to deal with that. Given the kind of things which have been said, | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
that if you are the Sun or the daughter of an apostate, you can be | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
killed, and we have seen his videos, people watching this programme will | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
be wondering, how come we have got John Terry on trial, and we cannot | :30:39. | :30:48. | |
I think they will. What's the answer? The European Court, it's | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
going to further contaminate people's dislike and distrust. | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
not the European Court's fault we are not putting him on trial in | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
England. The Supreme Court should be on a matter of national security, | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
it should be the view of the the court that prevails over a European | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
court. That should be the end game. Cameron should, as soon as he | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
secured some agreement with the King of Jordan, deport this man. | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
think that's a bit ridiculous, frankly. You cannot blame Europeans | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
in any shape or form for the fact we won't put him on trial ourselves | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
F we have a problem - I mean, obviously the two arguments against | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
it are if it were open court it would compromise other | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
investigations and then we have to pay for his prison care for amount | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
of time necessary prison. I can see both those points but we have to | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
take on both those points, we can't invoke - you can't do that. | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
can't seriously want this man running, he is going to be a curfew, | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
for two hours a day he is allowed to wander freely and he is a | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
security threat. It is strange we can't try him ourselves. If you do | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
want to walk away from Europe, it's a little bit reckless to assume we | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
won't then have to have a bill of rights our own. The Human Rights | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
Act in our domestic law and our top judges have decided it's OK to send | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
him back to Jordan, but then that's overruled by someone else's sper | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
pretation of the con-- interpretation of the convention. | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
You are both going to be on a lot of programmes like this, we have | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
not yet resolved prisoners' votes either. Plenty to keep us busy. We | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
like keeping lawyers busy, because they don't get well paid. | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Ten million animals were slaughtered to control foot-and- | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
mouth when it wraut the -- brought the countryside to a standstill in | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
in 2001. It has since recovered but one of the big controversies over | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
whether it is best to cull or vaccinate animals and that remains | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
unresolved years on. What lessons have been learned since the foot- | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
and-mouth outbreak? Max Cotton has been finding out what happened | :32:51. | :33:01. | |
:33:01. | :33:09. | ||
In late January and early February 2001 a highly contagious disease | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
was quietly spreading through the British livestock industry. Foot- | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
and-mouth disease was discovered in Essex on the 19th February that | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
year, and led to the slaughter of ten million animals. It thraeued a | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
-- delayed a general election and cost the farming industry �3.1 | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
billion. It's a horrible thing to just come | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
in and shoot everything on farm and just leave it there and just burn | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
it, it just seemed a total waste and against everything that we had | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
ever believed in. Philip rebuilt his Dartmoor farm after foot-and- | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
mouth, and he's diversified. Horse riders on holiday come here to | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
gather and drive cattle off the moors. The disease changed this | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
farm in one positive way. I think farming has a much better view in | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
the public eye now. There was a time perhaps in the 80s and 90s | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
where farmers were demons of of the countryside, they were heavily | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
subsidised and not overly efficient producers, I think that's changed | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
now. There was a political undercurrent to the 2001 foot-and- | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
mouth outbreak. Were farmers, particularly in Cumbria, and here | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
in Devon, suffering at the hands of a terrible disease or at the hands | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
of a terrible policy? Philip's farm was culled out because a farm | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
nearby might have had foot-and- mouth. In fact, it didn't. Why kill | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
millions of healthy animals, why not vaccinate? | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
The problem with vaccination is that you then can't tell if the | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
animal actually has foot-and-mouth, because it doesn't show any | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
symptoms and so consumers here and across the EU would have to agree | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
to eat meat from vaccinated animals. And it might take months or even | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
years to prove that foot-and-mouth had been eradicated. Nick Brown, | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
the agricultural Minister at the time, insists that he was right | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
then, but thinks we should now be planning a new strategy. I would | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
like to see a clearly established and properly honoured vaccinate to | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
live strategy adopted worldwide and the best time to do it is when | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
there isn't an outbreak and so people can discuss it in | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
theoretical terms, rather than with there being practical and as ever, | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
with these things, the trade consequences, I am not certain it | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
has. After the storm three inquiries were used to draw up a | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
new contingency plan against foot- and-mouth. But the vaccination | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
versus culling debate which caused so much controversy for Nick Brown | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
is still unresolved. Nothing's changed on that front at all. We | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
still have the issue, do we cull cattle so people can farm again or | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
vaccinate? If you vaccinate you then have the issue of whether they | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
can go in the food chain. We also have the issue of smallholders | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
having animals who probably haven't registered them with the ministry, | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
so these people have sheep, pigs, that can all harbour foot-and-mouth | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
and they wouldn't recognise it because they're not experienced | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
farmers. 11 years after the epidemic and British farming has | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
recovered and is thriving. But if foot-and-mouth did get a hold once | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
again the former Agriculture Minister and one of the country's | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
leading dairy farmers say that Government policy has a long way to | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
go if it's to protect us from millions of burning carcasses and | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
another very big bill. That was our Max. Joining me now | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
the Conservative MP Neil Parish, who is also a farmer. Welcome to | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
the Daily Politics. As we look back, almost 11 years, the pictures still | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
seered in our minds, of course, because it's hard to forget, what | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
is the single biggest lesson that we should have learned from that? | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
think the single biggest lesson and I was part of an inquiry done by | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
the European Parliament into the disease, was to close down all | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
movement of animals immediately and also manage it very close to where | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
the outbreak was. The Scots they manage their smaller outbreak of | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
foot-and-mouth from the locality. We managed everything from London | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
and of course very huge problems there for farmers, for the burial | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
of sheep and the general handling of the whole outbreak. So, of | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
course clampdown immediately on any movement of animals whatsoever. | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
There was a great argument, I wonder if it's resolved now, many | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
people, some people, not many, some people said we should not have gone | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
in for this multimillion animal slaughter, we should have done | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
vaccination instead. The Dutch, I am told, did more vaccination than | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
we did. Where do staupb on that? -- stand on that? The Dutch couldn't | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
then put those animals into the food chain, they did sraeubgs Nate | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
-- vaccinate, they then had to slaughter animals afterwards. We | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
have to agree a policy through the single market of Europe, as whether | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
the supermarkets and the buyers all across Europe will accept | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
vaccinated meat. There's nothing wrong with eating it whatsoever, | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
it's very often the perception. There was I think a little bit of | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
resistance from the supermarkets as well at the time as to whether they | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
were going to want to sell vaccinated meat. It's something we | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
have to deal with. The other thing we needed to deal with is we didn't | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
need this massive cull, these were animals that were very close to an | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
outbreak but didn't have the disease. I always feel there was a | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
lot to do with getting the general election on the way and stamping | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
out the disease quickly and too many animals were slaughtered, even | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
under a slaughter policy. So you are saying that a large degree of | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
slaughter was inevitable, but not as much as we ended up doing? | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
and also when we ended up burning those huge funeral pyres, there | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
were valleys in Devon when they set fire to these animals, then the | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
farms all through that valley were then infected with the disease. We | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
have never been able to prove scientifically whether the disease | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
was borne through the air or not, but it's one of those suspicions | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
that lay there and we just basically slaughtered too many | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
animals, and we allowed the movement to carry on for some five | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
days when the outbreak started and that's where the disease got out of | :39:37. | :39:44. | |
control. Now the outbreak that happened that came from Our own | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
laboratories the disease escaped from, at least it did actually shut | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
down - we shut down much quicker and we didn't have the spread of | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
the disease. It is about the spread of the disease. Vaccination on its | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
own unless you vaccinate all your cattle all of the time, would not | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
have helped in this instance. Finally, have we improved our early | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
warning systems to nip any future outbreak, because there will be one | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
inevitably in the scheme of things, in the bud? I believe we have. But | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
I also think it would be right for Defra and the ministry to actually | :40:19. | :40:27. | |
do a spot check and actually have - - and deal as though an outbreak | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
had happened and see if the procedure is fit for purpose. I | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
worry sometimes with our bureaucracy, especially ruling | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
everything from London, we sometimes don't get it right in | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
Cumbria or Devon or Wales, where the outbreaks were. I have noticed | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
that too on many things, Mr Parish! Absolutely. Thank you for joining | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
Plymouth, Essex, we are getting around today. Back to London. The | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
coalition agreement included plans for an elected House of Lords. All | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
the parties backed reform at the last last election but previous | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
attempts have failed in the face of opposition from peers themselves. | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
Now Labour's leader in the Upper House, Jan Royall, says it would be | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
wrong for the Government to press ahead with change now. That's | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
likely to put her on a collision course with Nick Clegg, who sees | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
Lords reform as a critical part of the Lib Dem bit of the coalition | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
programme. Here he is talking about it all just before Christmas. | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
The Lords is perhaps the most potent symbol of a closed society. | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
Because we are in the process of building support for a Lords reform | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
package, I am often advised not to be too outspoken on this issue. But | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
I am afraid this is one boat that urgently needs rocking. Lloyd | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
George described the House of Lords as being a body of 500 men, chosen | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
at random, from amongst the unemployed. To be honest, it would | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
be better if it was. Of course among our peers there are those | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
with valuable experience and expertise, but a veneer of | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
expertise can surely no longer serve as an alibi for a chamber | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
which legislates on behalf of the people, but is not held to account | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
by the people. The Lords is currently constituted, is an | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
affront to the principles of openness which underpin a modern | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
democracy. Joining me now Jan Royall, Labour's | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
leader in the House of Lords. Are you really telling us that even in | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the 21st century we can't move towards an elected second chamber? | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
I am not saying that and I heard your introduction in which you said | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
I had said they shouldn't go along with reform, that's not what I said. | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
What did you say? I said that if and when I hope they do go ahead | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
with it, I am just sort of giving them, I am observing that it will | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
clog up the House of Lords, that's not to say I don't want it. Tkoeu | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
want it, I am I am saying it's going to be extremely difficult. | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
Not if you helped? I will be helping, absolutely. If you have | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
the coalition and the Lords helping together, why will it clog it up? | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
Because although I am very pro- reform and my front bench is very | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
pro-reform, I cannot take the whole of my benches with me and certainly | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
most importantly, I think that a huge percentage of the Tory benches | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
will be against reform and they will be the people who are stopping | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
reform, not my people. I have covered House of Lords reforms | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
since it was stopped by Enoch Powell and Michael Foot, there's | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
never a good time to reform it, let's get on with it. I agree. | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
There is never a good time. Constitutional change is incredibly | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
important. I say bring it on, but I also say that if this is to be the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
absolute sort of - the most important part of the coalition's | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
programme for Government in the next session, I just wonder if the | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
people of Britain will understand that constitutional change is more | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
important than their standard of life, jobs for kids, etc. You can | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
say that at any time. You can't. You could, cow have said it when -- | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
you could have said it when the IMF were brought in to save this | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
country and Lords reform was on the agenda. I wouldn't have said it in | :44:05. | :44:13. | |
97 were things were rosy and we did got in. Start is the operative word. | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
We made a huge, huge change by getting rid of the majority of | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
hereditary. It's still unelected. probably want an elected house more | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
than you do. You don't know what I want and you won't find out either, | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
because it's not my job to tell you. Well, dam! It seems interests a -- | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
there is a huge vested interest among the existing members of the | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Lords, which is a kind of club for the establishment, just to stop | :44:41. | :44:51. | |
:44:51. | :44:51. | ||
A lot of peers want to stop it, but I would not call them a club for | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
the establishment. But there's about 800 of you. There are far too | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
many, that is one of my problems. Here's one difference, the Senate | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
in America actually matters. You've got 800 people, and very limited | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
powers. Yes, we have got very limited powers. How many would you | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
have? How many peers? Would you still call them peers? Would you | :45:18. | :45:28. | |
:45:28. | :45:29. | ||
call the monkeys? No, I would not. What would you call them? Well, | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
senators has been positive. As a socialist, do you think anybody | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
should be called Lord in the 21st century? I would go with senators. | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
But one of my problems is that at the moment, there are rumours that | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
the coalition government is going to put in 60 or more peers, how mad | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
is that, when you have got a House of more than 800 people? It keeps | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
them off the streets. But it is completely mad to put in more peers | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
now. I understand. It is mad and less you lose every single bill, | :46:05. | :46:12. | |
and then it makes sense. -- unless you lose every single bill. | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
country is about to go back into double dip recession, there is | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
massive unemployment, and what is the response of Nick Clegg and the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Lib Dems? Let's two with the constitution. That is not what | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
people want, they want growth to get us out of recession. Can they | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
not have a strategy for growth, and a second chamber which represents | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
the country in the 21st century? They are on an exceptionally sticky | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
wicket, in as Lara's, they have not got a mandate, and many of the most | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
important policies were not announced in any manifesto. | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
Effectively, when they were unelected themselves, they will be | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
opening up... They are not exactly unelected, if you add together the | :46:58. | :47:05. | |
Tory and the Lib Dem vote... Sure, but people will say, I did not vote | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
for this or that, and I did not vote for this government. This is | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
just because Nick Clegg failed so miserably on the alternative vote | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
referendum. It strikes me, if you are as enthusiastic about House of | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
Lords reform as you say, you should be sitting down with the Tories in | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
the Lords, and the leader of the Lib Dems, working together to get | :47:27. | :47:37. | |
:47:37. | :47:40. | ||
this through. I'm sure that we will get together and try and get this | :47:40. | :47:48. | |
bill through. However, I still say that there will be 70% or 80% of | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
people in the House of Lords... you think there is a big | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
constituency in the chamber against reform? I think there is, but it is | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
because a lot of them are concerned about the powers of the House of | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
Commons. The majority of people want the House of Commons to be the | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
prime chamber, they want the House of Commons to have primacy, and | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
there concern is that the bill, as it was drafted, makes a mockery of | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
that. People think the House of Commons is the most important | :48:14. | :48:21. | |
chamber. And it is. And it should remain so. When you come back and | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
see us? I will be delighted to. Over in the Commons, another topic | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
which has been around for some time now, MPs have been discussing | :48:31. | :48:41. | |
:48:41. | :48:41. | ||
Afghanistan, asking, crucially, when will it end? In Helmand and | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
across Afghanistan, is the Foreign Secretary seriously suggesting that | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
British military personnel will be involved in combat operations for | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
potentially between one year and 18 months after the Americans have | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
transferred away from combat operations? We cannot be complacent, | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
as gains made are fragile and not yet irreversible. But we are firmly | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
on track for the Afghans to have lead responsibility by 2013. They | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
will have full security responsibility by the end of 2014. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
This means that plans for British combat troop draw down by the end | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
of 2014 also remain on track. hope you will excuse me if I return | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
to the issue of the attitude of the United States and of the French. | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
There is of course a common background - in each country, they | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
are in the throes of a very acrimonious presidential election, | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
which leads me to the conclusion that statements may be made for | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
political rather than military reasons. Can he say more about the | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
negotiations going on in Qatar? Is there anything we can do to get | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
more impetus to those negotiations? We all want an Afghanistan which | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
can maintain its own security, and which is not used as a safe haven | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
for international terrorists. Our strategy is to help the Afghan | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
Government to build security forces, to make progress towards a | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
sustainable political settlement and to support the building of a | :50:14. | :50:24. | |
:50:24. | :50:27. | ||
viable Afghan state. Joining me now, the former leader of the Lib Dems | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
at Menzies Campbell. It is hard to avoid the impression that we are | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
moving towards the end game in Afghanistan. Undoubtedly. First of | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
all, we had the statement from the Lisbon conference about combat | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
troops coming out by 2014, but you may have noticed, I know you're a | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
keen student of American politics, Mr Pennetta, the Secretary of State | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
for Defence, hinted very strongly that the Americans would start a | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
serious draw down before that. In the exchanges we had yesterday in | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
the House of Commons, William Hague was endeavouring to put a slightly | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
different interpretation on it, but Mr Pennetta has never would go on | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
that. When you add to that the fact that Sarkozy has said that the | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
French are coming out at the end of 2013, then, there is a lot of | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
political stuff going on. It is election time, isn't it? You have | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
got it in one, there are two presidential elections taking place, | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
in the United States and in France. Obama was able to blame the | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
previous administration, Iraq was George W Bush's war, and he had | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
been against it. By agreeing to a surge, putting 30,000 more troops | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
on the ground, then Afghanistan became Obama's war. He will not | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
want to face the electorate in November of this year with it still | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
hanging over him. He will want to show that there has been some | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
serious reduction. What did you make of the confidential report | :51:49. | :51:56. | |
which was leaked to the media by NATO, which told us things we knew, | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
though the fact it came from NATO still made it important, but it | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
added to it, saying not only was Pakistani intelligence and the | :52:05. | :52:13. | |
Pakistani military supporting the Taliban, but part of the Afghan | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
army and the Afghan police are close to the Taliban, indeed, in | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
some areas, the Taliban are so on the present, that they have a | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
hotline in the village, if the chief is behaving badly, you call | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
up the Taliban - I mean, in some shape or form, they and up taking | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
over, do they not? That document was not based I think on close | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
analysis, it simply recorded what people were saying. But we are | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
talking to the Taliban, they have been allowed to establish not an | :52:45. | :52:52. | |
Embassy, but it in the office in Qatar. For a long time, the Afghan | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
Government, Hamid Karzai, has been very sensitive about the whole | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
notion of whether or not we should talk to the Taliban. Remember, two | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
civil servants were thrown out of Afghanistan because they had been | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
doing just that. But there is no doubt, if we're going to have | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
anything approaching political, and, we hope, peaceful agreements, then | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
it can only be done by talking to the Taliban. Some will wonder what | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
could see the blood and treasure that has been spent has been for, | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
if we end up with the situation where the Taliban are either in | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
power completely, or the dominant faction in a new government. | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
Remember that our purpose in going to Afghanistan was to prevent any | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
further acts of terrorism from Al- Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, based | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
there with the consent, sometimes perhaps even the encouragement, of | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
the Taliban. To that extent, we have succeeded. But you're quite | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
right, it is an issue which came up almost on the sidelines of that | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
exchange which we saw a moment ago, in the position of women. If, after | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
all of this, the position of women in Afghanistan goes back to what it | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
was before Hamid Karzai, before our intervention, then a lot of people | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
will feel very disappointed and let down. But your point about blood | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
and treasure was very well made. it was the position of women which | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
mattered, we should have kept the Soviets there. There were more | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
women in professional positions in those days. Indeed. It reminds me | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
of the Jill Dando crime Institute been set up when Jill Dando was | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
killed. Someone said, it is a brilliantly successful Institute | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
because no more Jill Dandos have been killed. There was not another | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
Osama Bin Laden. We went in there to close down that situation, and | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
of course, that situation has not been duplicated. I'm glad Menzies | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
Campbell reminded us why we were there, it was to do with | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
suppressing Al-Qaeda. A lot of people thought it was to try and | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
topple the Taliban. We did that many years ago. In which case, | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
pull-out now. And where are they now? They are in Somalia, and the | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
Yemen. So far, we have not had a major attack since 7/7 in this | :55:16. | :55:24. | |
country. Fingers crossed, with the Olympics coming up. 600th | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
University of your university this year? Because we are not exactly | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
sure of the date, it has lasted 14 the years! Time now to see what | :55:33. | :55:43. | |
:55:43. | :55:45. | ||
else has been happening over the Transport Secretary Justin Greening | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
said she would vote against bonuses for Network Rail executives, but | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
she got what she wanted on Monday anyway, when they decided to forgo | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
their payouts. William Hague returned from the United Nations | :55:56. | :56:03. | |
and accused Russia and China of a... Grave error of judgment. | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
Government's Health Bill came in for more criticism. Andrew Lansley | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
came under sustained fire, from Labour, and later closer to home. | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
That is why his people are saying that the Health Secretary should be | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
taken out and shot. His career prospects are a lot better than | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
those of the Leader of the Opposition. The Bank of England | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
pumped more than �300 billion more into the economy through | :56:29. | :56:39. | |
:56:39. | :56:48. | ||
quantitative easing. And David Just time before we go to find out | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
the answer to our quiz question. The question was, which one of | :56:52. | :57:00. | |
these does not want to be a Police Commissioner? What was the answer? | :57:00. | :57:09. | |
I think it must be Simon Weston who doesn't, because otherwise... | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
think it is John Prescott. You're all wrong, all three want to be. | :57:13. | :57:19. | |
Does he really want to do it, John Prescott? Yes, he's standing for | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
the Hull area. It brings a salary of �100,000. It was the first job I | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
could imagine John Prescott in and not mind. Now, it is your birthday, | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
we wanted to light the candles, but we were told we had to go on a risk | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
assessment course first, and we did not have time. Sadly, would you...? | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
not have time. Sadly, would you...? Shall I be mother? Am going to cut | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
you a piece of cake. So, I have not had a answers to every question | :57:50. | :57:58. | |
today, so let's see if I can get one. How old are you? 51. Was that | :57:58. | :58:07. | |
necessary? You are wearing well, I might say. By sue. Are you going to | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
have some? No, not yet. I will have some after the programme. -- bless | :58:12. | :58:21. | |
you. Are we seeing a turning point with Ed Miliband, he has done well | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
at three PMQs in a row now? Well, maybe it got to the point where | :58:25. | :58:32. | |
things were going so badly... remember, William Hague did very | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
well at Prime Minister's Question Time against Tony Blair, it did him | :58:34. | :58:41. | |
no good in the end. On that note, we say thanks to our guests, the | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
One O'Clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be back at midday on | :58:45. | :58:51. |