23/02/2012 Daily Politics


23/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 23/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. We've bailed the

:00:46.:00:49.

bank out but was it worth it? RBS announced losses of more than three

:00:49.:00:53.

quarters of a million pounds this morning. The unions are angry it's

:00:53.:00:57.

paying �390 million in bonuses to its 17,000 investment bankers. But

:00:57.:01:00.

is the picture really as bleak as it seems?

:01:01.:01:03.

More medical organisations call on the Government to withdraw the

:01:03.:01:06.

Health and Social Care Bill. Ministers say they won't budge and

:01:06.:01:11.

insist the Bill will improve patient care in England.

:01:11.:01:15.

Call me Dave likes riding his bike to work. But is it safe? MPs are

:01:15.:01:19.

debating the issue today. And is the Commons becoming too

:01:19.:01:29.
:01:29.:01:35.

posh on both sides of the house? We'll be talking class.

:01:35.:01:41.

Anyway, he does not ride his bike to Work anymore, he lives above the

:01:41.:01:44.

shop! All that in the next half hour and

:01:44.:01:47.

with us for the duration, the head of the Royal College of GPs, Clare

:01:47.:01:57.
:01:57.:01:58.

Gerarda. Now, first this morning let's talk about universities

:01:58.:02:00.

because the lecturers union, the UCU, says the number of

:02:00.:02:04.

undergraduate courses in the UK has fallen by more than a quarter in

:02:04.:02:07.

the last six years. The reduction has been starkest in England, where

:02:07.:02:11.

a third of degree courses have been cut. In Scotland only 3% have

:02:11.:02:21.
:02:21.:02:29.

disappeared. What do you think of that? Some of the courses may need

:02:29.:02:34.

to go by the bike. But I think part of this is the unintended

:02:34.:02:39.

consequences of the market. Way you have competition and you do not get

:02:39.:02:43.

bums on seats, does not mean the course is not good, it will have to

:02:43.:02:47.

go because it does not make money. We cannot predict what we need in

:02:47.:02:52.

the future, and it is a worrying sign we have seen such a reduction.

:02:52.:02:57.

We might be worrying we might be trying to predict. At the moment

:02:57.:03:02.

politicians are telling us the jobs of the future of green. Everyone

:03:02.:03:07.

says that. 20 years ago and no politician would have told you any

:03:07.:03:12.

job coming from something called the internet? And 20 years ago, who

:03:12.:03:17.

would have known Arabic studies would have been one of the most

:03:17.:03:22.

important studies. We may need a Nordic studies in 20 years. When we

:03:22.:03:26.

talk about health care there are parallels with what has been

:03:26.:03:31.

happening in universities competing against each other, competing

:03:31.:03:35.

against people to go into them. And actually, what we see is a

:03:35.:03:41.

reduction in choice, and not an increase. We will come on to health

:03:41.:03:45.

care in a minute. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

:03:45.:03:47.

On Tuesday, President Obama, gave a barnstorming performance singing at

:03:47.:03:51.

the White House, so our question today is: Which song did President

:03:51.:04:01.
:04:01.:04:09.

At the end of the show, Clare will give us the correct answer. We will

:04:09.:04:13.

ask for her to sing one of those songs. He don't want to hear me

:04:13.:04:19.

sing. I know the answer to that, and I know why he sang it.

:04:19.:04:25.

Life is full of imponderables. What is the meaning of life? Are we

:04:25.:04:29.

alone in the universe? And just how long will it be before we get a

:04:29.:04:32.

decent return on our stake in the Royal Bank of Scotland? RBS has

:04:32.:04:37.

revealed this morning that it made losses in 2011. Big losses. Around

:04:37.:04:42.

�2 billion in fact. Despite that they're still paying quite a lot in

:04:42.:04:47.

bonuses to their staff. So is it all worth it? Jo, some big

:04:47.:04:53.

questions there. Got some big answers for us?

:04:53.:04:56.

Stephen Hester, the boss of RBS, says he is in the process of

:04:56.:05:00.

defusing "the largest balance sheet risk time bomb in history". So just

:05:00.:05:05.

how big is it? Mr Hester has shrunk RBS's balance sheet from �2.2

:05:06.:05:09.

trillion in 2009 to �1.4 trillion today - that's still about the same

:05:09.:05:14.

size as the UK economy. In the process, Mr Hester has shed about

:05:14.:05:19.

�600 billion of assets and cut around 33,000 jobs worldwide.

:05:19.:05:22.

Despite the losses RBS is paying bonuses to its staff totalling �785

:05:22.:05:28.

million. Of that, 390 million will be used to pay staff in its

:05:28.:05:33.

investment banking arm - half what was paid last year. Last month,

:05:33.:05:35.

Stephen Hester waived his bonus following sustained political

:05:35.:05:45.
:05:45.:05:48.

pressure. This is what he said to Robert Peston. I don't think high

:05:48.:05:52.

pay is limited to the banking industry. It is a commercial

:05:52.:05:57.

business and we attract people who are attracted by commercial values.

:05:57.:06:02.

If we did not, they wouldn't be good at their job. They compare the

:06:02.:06:08.

money they get with doing the same job elsewhere. When I was asked to

:06:08.:06:13.

come and turn around RBS, I have to look over the world for the best

:06:13.:06:18.

team because we fired the previous management team. We have to get

:06:18.:06:25.

good people from other jobs. joining me now is Richard Hunter,

:06:25.:06:30.

head of equities at the stockbrokers, Hargreaves Lansdown.

:06:30.:06:37.

Turning round RBS is an enormous task. How is Stephen Hester doing?

:06:37.:06:42.

If we take it as a five-year project, it is considerable. You

:06:42.:06:47.

have quoted some of the figures in terms of reducing the balance sheet

:06:47.:06:52.

and reducing its general risk exposure. This is set against not

:06:52.:06:56.

only the fact we have had a financial crisis in the last couple

:06:56.:07:02.

of years. Not only the increasingly global market place is as

:07:02.:07:09.

competitive as it has ever been, but also the kind of political

:07:09.:07:14.

"interference" his rivals do not have. The likes of Barclays Bank

:07:14.:07:21.

and HSBC, who have avoided any handouts from the Government, are

:07:21.:07:25.

not held back by any outside interference. So you think he is

:07:25.:07:30.

doing a good job in that sense in making progress. Will the taxpayer

:07:30.:07:35.

ever make a profit out of RBS? There is a long time to go in terms

:07:35.:07:40.

of share price. It needs to hit about 50 pence, as compared to its

:07:40.:07:46.

current 28p. On paper anyway, there is an equalisation of the loss. So

:07:46.:07:53.

it is a longer term view. Apart from the competitive nature of the

:07:53.:07:58.

business we have already mentioned, the investment banking business,

:07:58.:08:03.

whilst profitable did see revenues down 25% over the last year. There

:08:03.:08:07.

are also a number of other businesses that need to be disposed

:08:07.:08:13.

of before RBS can read French at to where it can make some money. It is

:08:13.:08:17.

a longer term objective before there is any prospect of that share

:08:17.:08:21.

price doubling. The chances of it going back into private hands is a

:08:21.:08:28.

long way off, nobody is going to buy it are they? Again, it depends

:08:28.:08:32.

what you compare it with. Compared with up to three years ago, there

:08:32.:08:38.

has been considerable progress. If you look at it today and look at it

:08:38.:08:41.

as a private investor to enter the banking sector, you have to say

:08:41.:08:47.

there is better value elsewhere. You would look at one of the more

:08:47.:08:54.

globally diversified, Government free companies like Barclays Bank

:08:54.:08:59.

and page BSE. But it is possible with further prospects, it will

:08:59.:09:03.

look better than it does today it. It depends on your risk profile as

:09:03.:09:07.

an investor, and how much you are prepared to put that money aside

:09:07.:09:12.

for. With us now is the chair of the

:09:12.:09:16.

Church Arri select committee and the shadow Treasury minister, Chris

:09:16.:09:24.

Lesley. Stephen Hester says RBS is ahead in his strategy to turn the

:09:24.:09:29.

bank around, is he right? deserves some credit, it has been a

:09:30.:09:35.

tough road. It was the largest bank in the world with a lot of toxic

:09:35.:09:39.

waste on its balance sheet and he is claiming that up. It is a big

:09:39.:09:44.

job and it has not been helped by the fact the eurozone has been in

:09:44.:09:50.

crisis. So the decision has been weak. He had 2.7 trillion pounds on

:09:50.:09:55.

his balance sheet, twice the size of Britain's GDP. He has got to get

:09:55.:10:00.

rid of that or cut it down. You wouldn't want a 90 doing that job,

:10:00.:10:07.

you have to pay them well? Indeed he is paid well, he is not short of

:10:07.:10:12.

a few bob. Not big by banking standards? If it wasn't for the

:10:12.:10:17.

taxpayer, this bank wouldn't be there. It is not his fault, he was

:10:17.:10:23.

not there? No, and he has an important job to do. Even when we

:10:23.:10:28.

have a loss-making scenario, the 2 billion loss that has been

:10:28.:10:35.

announced... That is the pre-tax loss. The �7 million does feel

:10:35.:10:41.

inappropriate. It is not showing the restraint. Certainly, the

:10:41.:10:45.

Government as the shareholder, promised it would encourage. I

:10:45.:10:52.

asked Andrew, if at a time when the share value of RBS is so low and is

:10:52.:10:56.

making a loss, if we don't show the culture change now, when will we

:10:56.:11:02.

show it? If not here with RBS, where? Can you think of any other

:11:02.:11:06.

business outside banking way you get a bonus for running a loss of

:11:06.:11:10.

�2 billion? You pay receivers to go into businesses you are going to

:11:10.:11:20.
:11:20.:11:21.

dismember. It is not the same thing. Of course... Digging the chairman

:11:21.:11:28.

of British Petroleum get a bonus of �2 billion? You pay the Mark -- you

:11:28.:11:32.

pay the person in the market to do the job. Stop interrupting because

:11:32.:11:39.

I want to answer your questions. You are absolutely right, it is

:11:39.:11:44.

more pertinent. You absolutely right, Chris. We have got to get to

:11:44.:11:51.

a point where, when people are paid a bonus, and the public feel those

:11:51.:11:57.

bonuses are coming as a consequence of having been an return to

:11:57.:12:00.

profitability. But the key issue for RBS will be when the public

:12:00.:12:05.

think they will get their money back, 40 billion, I think most

:12:05.:12:10.

people would be prepared to see large payouts. And the decision of

:12:10.:12:13.

the senior management not to take these bonuses after all is a

:12:13.:12:18.

reflection of the fact, the public mood is, when we see the colour of

:12:18.:12:22.

the improvements then the bonuses can be paid. Before I bring Chris

:12:22.:12:28.

Lesley back in, it is a �785 million bonus pool acceptable for a

:12:28.:12:33.

bank that has lost �2 billion? need to divide it up into two

:12:33.:12:37.

sections. The first part is what you need but the most senior

:12:37.:12:42.

management, I have been trying to answer that question. The second is,

:12:42.:12:46.

what do you need to pay to recruit and retain good people who will

:12:46.:12:50.

enable that bind to perform well. It you strip out all of the toxic

:12:50.:12:54.

waste, it has made about 6 billion in profit. It is in a competitive

:12:55.:13:01.

market. We do have to decide, Andrew, if we want this bank to

:13:01.:13:05.

perform as a socially owned enterprise in definitely, or if we

:13:05.:13:09.

wanted to be put back into the commercial sector as soon as

:13:09.:13:13.

possible. If we interfere too much we will arrive at the point where

:13:13.:13:17.

we can never get this bank privatised. We have been talking

:13:17.:13:22.

for months, the Prime Minister was promising a culture change and

:13:22.:13:28.

responsible capitalism. And in the detail of this report, page 50 of

:13:28.:13:32.

the RBS annual report, the compensation ratio, the ratio

:13:32.:13:36.

between the income the bank is generating an the renumeration it

:13:36.:13:43.

is paying out to his executives, has risen in RBS from 32% in 2010,

:13:43.:13:51.

to 29% in 2011. So the steam roller of bonus culture is going up. And

:13:51.:13:57.

it is continually rolling on as if nobody can do anything about it. We

:13:57.:14:02.

own this Bank, 82%. If we won't affect the change in culture now at

:14:02.:14:06.

this moment, are we putting our hands up saying this is the way of

:14:06.:14:12.

the world? Absolutely not, we have a duty to the wider society. They

:14:12.:14:17.

should show the same restaurant as everybody else. I am putting back

:14:17.:14:23.

the point to Chris, when can we get this bank in to the private sector?

:14:23.:14:29.

What is the answer to that? Hold on a minute. If we are going to

:14:29.:14:33.

interfere to the point where the very best people end up drifting

:14:33.:14:38.

away, we will find ourselves in a position where we can never get it

:14:38.:14:43.

into the private sector. Is it necessary for the bonus pool to

:14:43.:14:51.

rise? Really? The American sector are having trouble getting there

:14:51.:14:56.

banks away. We have to ask ourselves, do we really want to run

:14:56.:15:02.

our banks that wait indefinitely? Let me try to get you answer a

:15:02.:15:06.

question. When will this bank end up in the private sector? If you

:15:06.:15:10.

had been listening you would have heard lots of answers, but you are

:15:11.:15:15.

too busy looking at your notes. Just answer the question. Of course,

:15:16.:15:21.

the decision on whether we can get the bank, when I say we, it is you

:15:21.:15:27.

and me, Joe Public into the private sector, will depend on whether the

:15:27.:15:32.

situation improves and how quickly it moves back to profitability. But

:15:32.:15:36.

I do think Stephen Hester and his team have done a good job and we

:15:36.:15:44.

I am asking your judgment, the initial projection was five years.

:15:44.:15:48.

Clear that's out. So what do you think, ten now? It's very difficult

:15:48.:15:54.

to tell. The five years looks out because the eurozone Chris reus --

:15:54.:15:58.

crisis made the conditions look worse. If you look the eurozone

:15:58.:16:02.

crisis out of the situation, you see an American recovery beginning,

:16:02.:16:06.

global recovery perhaps succeeding in taking route. At that point it

:16:06.:16:13.

may be possible that five or six years' time we could get RBS...

:16:13.:16:18.

core bank, the investment bank is being run down, not sure why they

:16:18.:16:22.

need bonuses of �390 million for something they're trying to run

:16:22.:16:27.

down. The core bank, what we the public will want to sell back to

:16:27.:16:31.

the market, that made a profit, quite a good profit in difficult

:16:31.:16:34.

circumstances. And on that side of the bank they're not hugely well

:16:34.:16:39.

paid. So, don't they deserve a bonus for doing well? Bonuses

:16:39.:16:44.

should be paid for exceptional performance and individuals will be

:16:44.:16:47.

either exceptional or won't be and the bonus decision should be made

:16:47.:16:51.

accordingly. It has to be put in the context of the total

:16:51.:16:55.

performance of the organisation and the society in which we live and

:16:55.:16:59.

all I am really saying is that this is an organisation that lives in

:16:59.:17:03.

the same planet as the rest of us. There are businesses up and down

:17:03.:17:09.

the country who are pair p -- paring down rewards, dividends,

:17:09.:17:13.

bonuses they're paying themselves. I want to see RBS exercise the same

:17:13.:17:20.

restraint, especially given... The compensation ratio has gone in the

:17:20.:17:23.

other direction but nobody's picked up on the detail is my point.

:17:23.:17:27.

observation as you listen, I know you don't want to talk about banks,

:17:27.:17:31.

what's going through your mind? these incredible high salaries and

:17:31.:17:34.

bonuses were there over the last few years and we were in the mess

:17:34.:17:38.

that we were in now because of them, so the the answer - to say for

:17:38.:17:41.

example they need this in order to work, that begs the question what

:17:41.:17:44.

were they doing in the past when they were getting one and two

:17:44.:17:48.

million? The other thing is I want to say is how do you know? How do

:17:48.:17:52.

you know you can't attract the best people for salaries that would be

:17:52.:17:56.

significantly less? I work in medicine, we attract some of the

:17:56.:18:00.

brightest of the generation to work in medicine and I find it

:18:00.:18:04.

incredibly arrogant that actually - that you are saying you can't

:18:04.:18:11.

attract the best people unless you offer �750 million bonus pool.

:18:11.:18:17.

Those are the sort of... Hold on. Let Mr Tyrie try and answer that.

:18:17.:18:20.

Where I strongly agree with you is that there is something very

:18:20.:18:24.

curious about the financial sector as a whole that seems to require

:18:24.:18:29.

these uniquely high rewards. Addressing that is a big question

:18:29.:18:34.

that involves the need for much more shareholder activism, not just

:18:34.:18:38.

what the Government is doing but going across the board, looking at

:18:38.:18:41.

ways in which shareholders can take a much more direct interest in what

:18:41.:18:47.

people are paid. I think if you just prick the balloon and say we

:18:47.:18:51.

are not paying this, I think you still will get the bright things

:18:51.:18:55.

into banking, you still will get the loyalty, still the performance

:18:55.:19:01.

and you might get better performance. I think it's self-

:19:01.:19:04.

fulfilling. We are here discussing these staggering salaries. We need

:19:05.:19:10.

to move on, thank you for answering my questions, and Chris, thank you.

:19:10.:19:14.

Now, the budget is looming. George Osborne will have a lot in his

:19:14.:19:17.

inbox. And it appears he is under increasing pressure from his own

:19:18.:19:22.

MPs to rethink plans to withdraw child benefit from high earners. I

:19:22.:19:28.

am joined now by the Tory MPs Christopher Chope and Peter Lilley.

:19:28.:19:31.

What is the the strength of feeling amongst your colleagues over this

:19:31.:19:36.

issue? There is a lot of feeling that the plans as currently put

:19:36.:19:40.

forward are unsustainable and that the Chancellor's got to to think

:19:40.:19:46.

again about this and in fairness to him I think he is he is as is the

:19:46.:19:49.

Prime Minister, the policy originally announced more or less

:19:49.:19:54.

off the back of an envelope at the conference in 2010 doesn't add up,

:19:54.:19:57.

as is made clear from the latest report for the institute of fiscal

:19:57.:20:00.

studies. You say you have evidence and the Chancellor and Prime

:20:00.:20:04.

Minister are rethinking this, where is that from? It's in various

:20:04.:20:08.

statements they've made to the press and obviously in discussions

:20:08.:20:12.

we have on a day to day basis amongst Conservative members of

:20:12.:20:15.

parliament. Are you confident it's going to be dropped? I am not

:20:15.:20:21.

saying that at all. I am saying is that I hope that it will be dropped

:20:21.:20:26.

and that if the Chancellor feels that additional money has to be

:20:26.:20:31.

raised from higher rate taxpayers he won't just pick off higher rate

:20:31.:20:36.

taxpayers who happen to have children. Why pick off higher rate

:20:36.:20:39.

taxpayers with children, rather than higher rate generally? Can you

:20:39.:20:44.

answer that question, Peter Lilley? Why single out those higher rate

:20:44.:20:48.

taxpayers can children rather than those without? Well, he is not just

:20:48.:20:52.

singling them out, of course, it's a higher rate of tax on upper

:20:52.:20:58.

income earners with more than �150,000 and higher rates on those

:20:58.:21:01.

over �100,000 and those just below �150,000. I considered this

:21:01.:21:06.

proposal when I was responsible for social security and rejected it

:21:06.:21:09.

because it does have all sorts of difficulties and problems which

:21:09.:21:13.

Chris has highlighted. I can understand why the Chancellor now

:21:13.:21:17.

is thinking it necessary to go ahead because in a much more

:21:17.:21:21.

difficult financial situation nationally now, than in the 1990s

:21:21.:21:25.

when I was responsible for social security. I don't think he has that

:21:25.:21:30.

much alternative. If he can find an easier way, less unfair way of

:21:30.:21:34.

doing it that's fine, I couldn't then and I am not sure one is

:21:34.:21:38.

available. You do admit it is unfair? Obviously, it's always

:21:38.:21:43.

quoted two lower rate taxpayers with a combined income of 70 or 80

:21:43.:21:49.

won't be hit whereas one will. Picking up something you said, do

:21:49.:21:52.

you think there was an assumption at the time when it was actually

:21:52.:21:55.

announced, this proposal, that it would never really go ahead in 2013

:21:55.:21:59.

and it's only because of the economy that they might well push

:21:59.:22:02.

ahead with it? No, I think when they announce announced it they

:22:02.:22:06.

intended to go ahead and will probably have to if they can find

:22:06.:22:10.

some way of dealing with the unfairness, yes and it is very

:22:10.:22:14.

rough justice or skwruf injustice some -- rough injustice some might

:22:14.:22:19.

say, that's fine. I couldn't see a way of withdrawing child benefit

:22:19.:22:25.

from upper income groups without this sort of rough edge. I was

:22:25.:22:30.

going to say this is - 2010 budget, the first that came in after the

:22:30.:22:35.

coalition was elected. And in that budget the Chancellor made it quite

:22:35.:22:38.

clear that he was going to freeze child benefit for three years and

:22:38.:22:41.

that was what he was going to do with child benefit and wasn't going

:22:41.:22:45.

to alter it in any other way. Then there was a proposal to remove

:22:45.:22:50.

child benefit from 16-19-year-olds which was vetoed and then we came

:22:50.:22:55.

up with this half-baked policy at the conference. There is this

:22:55.:22:59.

universal benefits, isn't the Chancellor arguably making a brave

:22:59.:23:03.

prove that wealthier people shouldn't just by right have that

:23:03.:23:07.

universal benefit? If you go down that road you start saying people

:23:07.:23:10.

who are millionaires shouldn't access the health service without

:23:10.:23:14.

being means tested and I think there is a strong reason for saying

:23:14.:23:19.

we should maintain some universal benefits as set out by Beforage and

:23:19.:23:23.

has been the consensus among the parties for years. You would agree

:23:23.:23:28.

with that with better off pensioners as well? In fact, the

:23:28.:23:31.

Government's specifically ruled out dealing with better off pensioners

:23:31.:23:34.

by taking away their benefits in the same way as they specifically

:23:34.:23:40.

ruled out before the general election taking away child benefit.

:23:40.:23:43.

Thank you very much. Now, when your GP tells you that

:23:43.:23:48.

you don't need that hip replacement or that hernia sorted out, or are

:23:48.:23:53.

they thinking about what's best for you or their budget? Could GPs

:23:53.:23:57.

prapgs be rationing more healthcare procedures for patients they don't

:23:57.:24:01.

think will benefit from treatment under the guise of budget cuts?

:24:01.:24:05.

Adam Fleming has been taking a loom. -- a look.

:24:05.:24:10.

The health sr was -- service was born when we still had rationing.

:24:10.:24:15.

There is the rations... The NHS has always had to do some rationing of

:24:15.:24:18.

its own. Otherwise the nation's every penny could be spent on

:24:18.:24:22.

healthcare. But, with budgets being squeezed there's now more of it.

:24:22.:24:27.

Here's how it works now. The NHS here in north London is

:24:27.:24:32.

very similar to other areas of the country in that they've a list of

:24:32.:24:36.

what the is called procedures of low clinical effectiveness. In

:24:36.:24:38.

other words, operations you will only get if you meet very specific

:24:38.:24:42.

criteria. So here your child will only get

:24:42.:24:45.

their tonsils out if they've suffered a certain number of really

:24:45.:24:52.

serious bouts of tonsilitis. You will only have skin lesinons

:24:52.:24:55.

removed if they're causing real medical problems. Elsewhere in the

:24:55.:24:58.

country if you have a hernia it will only be operated on in its --

:24:58.:25:03.

if its big big enough and other places will only give a hip

:25:03.:25:07.

replacement if it's an emergency. The Primary Care Trusts say they're

:25:07.:25:09.

cutting back on treatments that might not make that much of a

:25:09.:25:13.

difference so there is money left to pay for ones that really do. GPs

:25:13.:25:17.

can appeal in exceptional cases, but this senior surgeon says

:25:17.:25:21.

patients' health is being put at risk for a false economy. If you

:25:21.:25:25.

don't get certain procedures it can lead to extreme problems later on.

:25:25.:25:30.

If you don't have your hip operation, when you should have it,

:25:30.:25:33.

then it's going to be a much more difficult procedure at a later time

:25:33.:25:39.

and it's going to be less satisfactory outcome. And one of

:25:40.:25:43.

the reasons that GPs have had enough of the Government's changes

:25:43.:25:48.

to the NHS is that instead of shadowy anonymous managers making

:25:48.:25:51.

these kind of decisions it will be them. We are going to have to break

:25:52.:25:56.

the news to the patients and obviously we are going to be the

:25:56.:26:02.

ones left holding the baby. So, the politicians will say oh well, we

:26:02.:26:07.

devolved down the decision-making processes to the GPs, go fight it

:26:07.:26:12.

out with them. The NHS of the future will be defined by two

:26:12.:26:16.

things: Less money and more local decisions. The Government say that

:26:16.:26:20.

will make the health service more responsive to patients. Critics say

:26:20.:26:29.

it's a recipe for more rationing. We have as our guest Claire Gerada,

:26:29.:26:34.

the chair of the Royal College of GPs. It's a difficult one for

:26:34.:26:38.

doctors, people will think I need my hip replacement, it would be

:26:38.:26:45.

better for me, but the doctor might say no, it won't. Yes, and GPs have

:26:45.:26:49.

always been careful with the public's purse. We have always in a

:26:49.:26:54.

sense rationed care. We have always, for example, choosing cheaper

:26:54.:26:57.

medicines over more expensive when they have the same effect. I think

:26:57.:27:02.

what we are moving into is an area where GPs may well not just have

:27:02.:27:06.

the patient in front of them that we are concerned about, but

:27:06.:27:10.

actually out there a much wider public purse issue, but also the

:27:10.:27:13.

fact that the patient may think we are doing this for a conflict of

:27:13.:27:18.

interest and to be crude, that our take home pay will be dependent on

:27:18.:27:21.

preventing you getting care and the most important thing and most

:27:21.:27:24.

successful part of the health service is because you trust me as

:27:24.:27:28.

your doctor to do what's best for you based on your needs and not

:27:28.:27:34.

on... I might not. My patients' generation trusted doctors all the

:27:34.:27:37.

time and they were grateful, they were the first beneficiaries of the

:27:37.:27:40.

NHS and they were just grateful to get the kind of care they hadn't

:27:40.:27:45.

got in the 20s and 30s. Subsequent generations aren't quite in awe of

:27:45.:27:50.

doctors any more like that. We may get an opinion from you, but I may

:27:50.:27:54.

want an opinion from another doctor because you may not be right.

:27:54.:27:58.

think you will find that survey after survey still puts the GP as

:27:58.:28:03.

one of the most trusted of all the professions right up there, as 90%,

:28:03.:28:07.

I hope you are not in awe of me... I will tell you at the end of the

:28:07.:28:09.

programme. But you trust the decision I make on your behalf,

:28:09.:28:14.

based on your needs and not some other motive. It may be that you

:28:14.:28:19.

don't need a hip replacement t may be I do defer referring you but you

:28:19.:28:23.

must not think that's made through opl -- some other issue and the

:28:23.:28:26.

worry about these reforms is I am going to be given a quality premium

:28:26.:28:30.

if I save money from not referring you and it will place a conflict of

:28:30.:28:34.

interest. If you look at the States, for example, GPs in the States, the

:28:34.:28:38.

equivalent, have as little trust as the bankers. So, it is something

:28:38.:28:45.

that can be rapidly reversed. puts a huge premium on the doctor

:28:45.:28:49.

being right. It puts a lot of responsibility on you because you

:28:49.:28:52.

may deny a treatment to someone and turn out to be wrong and they

:28:52.:28:57.

suffer as a result. That's very complex. What I would say is that

:28:57.:29:01.

as a GP I make sometimes some life- changing decisions every ten

:29:01.:29:06.

minutes and what I would expect is that our politicians, they take the

:29:06.:29:09.

responsibility for how much health service - how much money should be

:29:09.:29:13.

put into the health service and we work together about deciding what

:29:13.:29:16.

then should be funded but together with some of the organisations, as

:29:16.:29:19.

some of these operations that you heard may not be required,

:29:19.:29:27.

absolutely. In the olden days we used to do hysterectomy for women's

:29:27.:29:31.

anxiety. You may not require an operation but you have to trust

:29:31.:29:36.

that's a decision based on evidence and on your best interests.

:29:36.:29:42.

often would a doctor be faced with a decision like this? Every day,

:29:42.:29:47.

every week? About? Having someone wanting some important treatment

:29:47.:29:52.

and the doctor having to say no, it's not necessary, it's not right

:29:52.:29:56.

for you. Probably every surgery. Every surgery we would say a

:29:56.:30:00.

patient might say what about X and we might say this might be better

:30:00.:30:04.

for you. Yes, of course we can explore that, that might be better,

:30:04.:30:07.

but that's not rationing, that's good patient care. Rationing is

:30:07.:30:12.

where we make a decision based on an you will terior motive and a

:30:12.:30:15.

situation made on finances, either finances that I am going to benefit

:30:15.:30:19.

for or finances that is because the PCT hasn't got any money. In those

:30:19.:30:22.

situations I have to be honest with you and say you can't be referred

:30:22.:30:25.

for that, because there is no money. I don't say to you you don't need

:30:25.:30:35.
:30:35.:30:40.

It is a rationing decision? It is, but we can't pretend you don't need

:30:40.:30:47.

it because of other reasons. welcome our viewers from Scotland

:30:47.:30:53.

and we are discussing health reforms with the head of the Royal

:30:53.:30:59.

College of GPs. Does that include Scotland? It includes Scotland,

:30:59.:31:05.

Northern Ireland and Wales. I represent 44,000 GPs although we

:31:05.:31:15.
:31:15.:31:27.

have a devolved Council. The Health Bill was part of a heated debate in

:31:27.:31:37.
:31:37.:31:39.

the Commons. Andy Burnham said the release of so-called risk registers.

:31:39.:31:44.

Miss the Deputy Speaker, this is what the National Health Service is

:31:44.:31:49.

telling the Prime Minister of the potential effects of his

:31:49.:31:54.

reorganisation. It is appalling and shocking. They are taking

:31:54.:31:58.

unacceptable risks with children's safety and people's lives. If this

:31:58.:32:02.

is what the NHS has been telling ministers for 20 months, how can

:32:02.:32:08.

they possibly justify pressing on with this dangerous reorganisation?

:32:09.:32:15.

Hasn't what remains of any just a vocation for carrying on with his

:32:15.:32:20.

reorganisation just collapsed? If this is what is published in local

:32:20.:32:24.

risk registers, it begs the question, what are they trying to

:32:24.:32:28.

hide in the national assessment? Can I clarify to the house, I met

:32:28.:32:34.

last week with the hospital he referred to earlier. The chief

:32:34.:32:39.

executive or the German raised any of the points he raised. And the

:32:39.:32:43.

local GP commissioning consortia are perfectly happy and are asking

:32:43.:32:51.

me and other local MPs to push ahead with this Bill. Why is he

:32:51.:32:57.

such a scaremongering buffoons. I say, this is by some margin the

:32:57.:33:02.

worst tempered debate I have chaired. Can I ask members on both

:33:02.:33:09.

sides to lower the temperature. We need to have a decent debate.

:33:09.:33:13.

curious, on the one hand, the shadow Secretary of State is saying

:33:13.:33:20.

it is going badly, and he is opposing the reform of the NHS. Yet,

:33:20.:33:25.

the Secretary of State is saying the outcome has never been better,

:33:25.:33:31.

so why is he pressing on with the bill? The argument, the curious

:33:31.:33:36.

thing is, and they know he will appreciate this, even the leader of

:33:36.:33:40.

the opposition says reform is needed in the NHS because of the

:33:40.:33:50.
:33:50.:33:54.

challengers. I'm joined now by Conservative MP,

:33:55.:33:57.

Anna Soubry, who is Parliamentary private secretary to the Health

:33:57.:34:07.
:34:07.:34:10.

Minister, Simon Burns, and shadow health minister, Liz Kendall. Now,

:34:10.:34:17.

your boss claims you don't represent the views of GPs in these

:34:17.:34:22.

health reforms? I think I do, I represent a 44,000 general

:34:22.:34:27.

practitioners, and over 90% wanted me to ask for a withdrawal of the

:34:27.:34:32.

bill. It is against the background of 18 months of consultation, three

:34:32.:34:37.

surveys, five executive councils and and national conference,

:34:38.:34:42.

endless consultations. I can categorically tell you my members

:34:42.:34:46.

of the Royal College of GPs do not want this bill. Some of the parts

:34:46.:34:52.

of the bill are good. Putting GPs in charge of money, putting

:34:52.:34:57.

patients first, but in its totality, it is a mess and it is flawed and

:34:57.:35:04.

the Bill won't achieve what Andrew Lansley is setting out to achieve.

:35:04.:35:14.
:35:14.:35:16.

She represents the GPs? I think she is wrong. Let me tell you what I

:35:16.:35:22.

think. I go into my constituency and talk to real GPs on the ground.

:35:22.:35:27.

In my area, the consortia was formed before we got elected into

:35:27.:35:31.

Government. They were in existence. They are putting into operation

:35:31.:35:41.
:35:41.:35:42.

already what we are seeking to achieve. That is my experience in

:35:42.:35:45.

my constituency. I was approached by a doctor who lives in my

:35:45.:35:50.

constituency but practices in Nottingham. He said, for God's sake

:35:50.:35:53.

get this Bill through so I can deliver the treatment to my

:35:54.:35:59.

patients have that I want to do. That is anecdotal evidence, her

:35:59.:36:04.

evidence is surveys and taking the opinion, why should your anecdotal

:36:04.:36:08.

evidence be more important? I did not saying it was. You just said

:36:08.:36:14.

she was wrong. I work in a general practice. You are part time.

:36:14.:36:18.

have lots of practices across London and I speak to general

:36:19.:36:26.

practitioners. The doctor you spoke to might be one of the 56 out of

:36:26.:36:32.

2,500... What about the doctors who formed the consortia, the 95% of

:36:32.:36:38.

other areas of the country it is happening? It is not reflected what

:36:38.:36:48.
:36:48.:36:51.

we're hearing through the Royal College of GPs. GPs write to me.

:36:51.:36:57.

You have been very patient, but you say you are not a politician but in

:36:57.:37:02.

reading your case against the bill and so on, you do have a pretty

:37:02.:37:08.

strong ideological opposition to competition or further choice. You

:37:08.:37:14.

have even said it is an attempt to privatise the NHS and turn it into

:37:14.:37:19.

an American-style system? It is an attempt to privatise the NHS. We're

:37:19.:37:26.

not against competition. Turn it into an American-style system?

:37:26.:37:32.

it into a system with individuals... It is just your opinion. Give me a

:37:32.:37:36.

substantial fact. The American system involves private insurance.

:37:36.:37:41.

Is that what they will do in Britain? I would like to ask what

:37:41.:37:45.

is in the Bill that prevents that from happening. What you will find

:37:45.:37:49.

his there is nothing in the Bill that prevent that happening. We're

:37:49.:37:53.

not against competition, we have never been against competition

:37:53.:37:57.

where it adds value for patients. We are against any qualified

:37:57.:38:01.

provider way you have everybody competing for the same HIP and the

:38:02.:38:06.

same knee. Do you believe the Government is attempting to

:38:06.:38:12.

privatise the NHS? I think when they are telling clinical

:38:12.:38:16.

commissioning groups across the country, you have to put three

:38:16.:38:20.

services out to tender. When they are saying to hospitals you can

:38:20.:38:24.

have up to 49% of your patients treated in the private sector, I am

:38:24.:38:29.

very worried about that. Let me ask my question again in the hope of

:38:29.:38:32.

getting an answer. Do you believe the Government is attempting to

:38:32.:38:38.

privatise the NHS? When they are forcing services out to tender,

:38:38.:38:42.

when that is not what GPs and patients want, then that is what

:38:42.:38:48.

they are doing. Your answer is yes? I need to clarify. Is your answer

:38:48.:38:53.

yes? It is part of where they want to go with the health services,

:38:53.:39:01.

they want to see more services run by the private sector. There is a

:39:01.:39:06.

role for bringing in the private sector where we know it can build

:39:06.:39:10.

capacity and create some challenge in the system and improve services.

:39:10.:39:13.

But you have to manage the consequences choice and competition

:39:13.:39:19.

bring. I think the Government is in denial about how the different

:39:19.:39:24.

parts of the NHS are against this bill. It is not just GPS, the

:39:24.:39:29.

paediatricians came out against the Bill today. They seem to be saying,

:39:29.:39:35.

they are all confused by myths that Labour has put out. These are

:39:35.:39:39.

highly trained professionals. have had enough about who is for

:39:39.:39:43.

and against it. What about the substance of his bill? Let's talk

:39:43.:39:48.

about the substance of it. What you say about the Labour criticism,

:39:48.:39:52.

they are not against some more competition, we're not against

:39:52.:39:56.

further choice, but it has to be managed and not a free for all and

:39:56.:40:01.

the danger is this will lead down to too much private involvement?

:40:01.:40:04.

There are enough structures that have been put into this Bill to

:40:04.:40:08.

make sure that does not happen. Let's look at the so-called

:40:09.:40:14.

competition and the so-called privatisation. I find that deeply

:40:14.:40:24.
:40:24.:40:25.

offensive. How many times does the Secretary of State, ministers, the

:40:25.:40:29.

Prime Minister, every Tory stand up and say this Bill is not about

:40:29.:40:35.

privatising the NHS. Can somebody put forward were it says in the

:40:35.:40:38.

built where it will allow privatisation. We believe it should

:40:38.:40:43.

be free at the point of delivery. I will concede we have probably not

:40:43.:40:48.

explained it in the simple terms it needs to be explained in. It is our

:40:48.:40:55.

fault. It is Andrew Lansley's fault. He is the Health Secretary. As a

:40:56.:40:59.

team, I would agree we have not explained it in good, simple

:40:59.:41:05.

language. So let's have that debate in simple language. It is about

:41:05.:41:11.

shifting power back to GPs. I have no problem with that. Or Derry

:41:11.:41:14.

people in my constituency get it and ordinary GPs in my constituency

:41:14.:41:20.

like it. If you can just encapsulate in a couple of

:41:20.:41:24.

sentences, why it is not just due against what has been done, you

:41:24.:41:29.

wanted to be dropped, why? It is so complex now with hundreds of

:41:29.:41:33.

amendments that don't make sense. It is so conflicted. They have lost

:41:33.:41:38.

control? We are turning one National Health Service into

:41:38.:41:43.

thousands of different health services, competing for each other.

:41:43.:41:47.

It is a complete and utter mess that needs stopping. We need to

:41:47.:41:53.

work with you now to stabilise the NHS. You need to stop saying things

:41:53.:41:57.

like we are going to privatise it and introducing an American-style

:41:57.:42:04.

system. Liz, I will give you the final word, but it has to be brief.

:42:04.:42:09.

If this Bill won't help us make the changes we need. We need to shift

:42:09.:42:14.

services into the community and more towards integration. This Bill

:42:14.:42:18.

sets different part of the NHS against each other and won't help

:42:18.:42:23.

them work together. I hope we come back to it.

:42:23.:42:26.

Now, should more be done to protect the growing number of cyclists on

:42:26.:42:30.

our streets? MPs have been debating that this morning and in a moment

:42:30.:42:32.

we'll be talking to the Cambridgeshire MP, Julian Huppert.

:42:32.:42:42.
:42:42.:42:42.

But first we put our very own Chris Hoy - Giles Dilnot, on his bike.

:42:42.:42:47.

I have been cycling to work for four years. It keeps me fit, saved

:42:47.:42:52.

me money and they don't have to run a car or pay for public transport.

:42:52.:42:58.

But I do feel vulnerable sometimes. Three things, vehicles too many

:42:58.:43:03.

people trying to share too little road space. They are not malicious,

:43:04.:43:08.

just ignorance of me being there, even though they shouldn't be. And

:43:08.:43:12.

pedestrians who just stepped in front of you because they did not

:43:12.:43:16.

hear you. And they get aggressive like that. But other cyclists can

:43:16.:43:21.

provide a lot of problems as well. They have got to take

:43:21.:43:26.

responsibility for it, they do some stupid stuff. Jumping red lights

:43:26.:43:30.

and riding on pavements. I am coming up to some traffic now. This

:43:30.:43:37.

is where it gets dodgy. I'm really, really don't like this bit. Too

:43:37.:43:42.

many lanes across. One of the reasons I would say I am a safe

:43:42.:43:52.

cyclist is because I am a driver, too. Not enough drivers understand

:43:52.:43:56.

cyclists and cyclists do not understand drivers. New can see how

:43:56.:44:06.
:44:06.:44:06.

close some of these vehicles get. There we are, Jenny end.

:44:06.:44:10.

That was a frightening shot at the end with the bus coming towards him.

:44:10.:44:14.

Will he make the next Olympics? And the Liberal Democrat MP, Julien

:44:14.:44:22.

Huppert, is with us now. It is not safe on the roads is it? Cycling is

:44:22.:44:25.

a safe thing to do, but I would like it to be more sake. Most

:44:25.:44:30.

people who do cycle cycle regularly absolutely fine. We need to stop

:44:30.:44:38.

these crashes and there is a lot we can do. Is it fairly safe? You are

:44:38.:44:43.

looking at someone who has had two accidents, my feet been crushed,

:44:43.:44:49.

Blackfriars Bridge. It is terrifying. By what? Lorries.

:44:49.:44:55.

are the danger aren't they? It is terrifying Cycling in London.

:44:55.:45:00.

terrifying and we need to tackle it. As more people cycle, people get

:45:00.:45:04.

used to cyclists, give them more space and it gets savour. There are

:45:04.:45:14.

places like those bridges,. -- safer. We cannot fix the traffic

:45:14.:45:17.

levels on the dangerous junctions and there are cyclists out there

:45:17.:45:21.

who are not very good at it and they are a danger to themselves.

:45:21.:45:25.

You have to be very confident to tackle the roads in London and

:45:26.:45:35.

Have a space for cyclists and a space for other users. A good

:45:35.:45:39.

quality space for cyclists, not some track that weaves around trees.

:45:39.:45:44.

You are right about the education point. The Government's continued

:45:44.:45:51.

funding to train 9-11-year-olds. I would like to see cycles... With

:45:51.:45:55.

helmets? The key thing about helmets is what we found in the

:45:55.:45:59.

world where they've become become compulsory is people have stopped

:45:59.:46:02.

cycling, particularly children. Why? Because of the look of it, the

:46:02.:46:06.

feel, it reduces the number and that's bad for the health. The life

:46:06.:46:08.

expectancy of people who cycle is longer than people who don't cycle

:46:08.:46:12.

because of the health benefits. It keeps you fit, it's much better for

:46:12.:46:16.

you than sitting on the tube or a car. Would you advise for the

:46:16.:46:19.

health of the nation and your own health cycle something a good idea

:46:19.:46:23.

after what you experienced? Absolutely, if we can get more

:46:23.:46:25.

people cycling it will become safer, exactly what you say. The problem

:46:25.:46:31.

we have, in fact, I passed my cycling test many moons ago, the

:46:31.:46:35.

problem is in all honesty, is the speed of cars, especially over

:46:35.:46:40.

bridges, who seem to think a bridge is a motorway. It's cars and vans

:46:40.:46:43.

not understanding that you get squashed against the side and they

:46:43.:46:49.

lose you. It's actually pedestrians who tend to rush out. I think I am

:46:49.:46:53.

biased about this, I love cycling, I am now frightened of cycling, but

:46:53.:46:58.

I love it and we need to get more bikes on the road. Thank you very

:46:58.:47:00.

much. An MP has been arrested on

:47:00.:47:04.

suspicion of assault following an incident in a bar at the House of

:47:04.:47:08.

Commons last night. It's understood the MP is Labour's Eric Joyce, and

:47:08.:47:11.

we can now speak to our political correspondent Vicky Young. What can

:47:11.:47:15.

you tell us? We understand that the police were called to a bar in the

:47:15.:47:21.

House of Commons before Len.00pm -- 11.00 where they handcuffed Eric

:47:21.:47:24.

Joyce, he was taken to a central London police station where he is

:47:24.:47:27.

still being head. There -- held. There are various reports about

:47:27.:47:32.

what went on. Eyewitness reports about glasses being broken, about

:47:32.:47:35.

angry exchanges, even about a window in the House of Commons

:47:35.:47:38.

being broken and the Conservative MP Stuart Andrew is alleging that

:47:38.:47:42.

he was assaulted, he was headbutted and we are waiting to see whether

:47:42.:47:46.

the police take this further. The Labour Party issued a statement

:47:46.:47:49.

swiftly saying it was an extremely serious incident and they have

:47:49.:47:53.

suspended Eric Joyce from the Labour Party, penning results of a

:47:53.:47:56.

police investigation. In the last hour or so the Speaker of the House

:47:56.:48:00.

of Commons has said he takes these allegations very seriously and he's

:48:00.:48:03.

warned MPs not to talk about it on the floor of the House of Commons

:48:03.:48:08.

while this investigation continues. It's not the only high profile

:48:08.:48:14.

arrest, is it? Other news, the West Midlands MEP, Nicki Sinclair has

:48:14.:48:18.

been arrest on suspicion of conspiracy to defraud the European

:48:18.:48:22.

Parliament. She now sits as an independent. This is an

:48:22.:48:26.

investigation going back to 2010 when allegations surfaced about

:48:26.:48:29.

expenses and she's one of four people who have been detained by

:48:29.:48:32.

they've been released on bail today and that investigation also

:48:32.:48:36.

continues. Thank you.

:48:36.:48:39.

That's the kind of behaviour you get with subsidised drinking.

:48:39.:48:43.

That's why the Government wants a minimum price.

:48:43.:48:48.

They have all the subsidised booze in parliament. They're hitting each

:48:48.:48:58.
:48:58.:49:00.

other. Allegedly. Hitting each - may be who did it!

:49:00.:49:04.

Is parliament too posh? It's a question the Conservative leaning

:49:04.:49:09.

think tank Policy Exchange is asking, only a year after my own

:49:09.:49:13.

documentary on the matter. Do they need working class MPs in

:49:13.:49:18.

parliament? Many professions have opened up to people from other

:49:18.:49:21.

backgrounds, research from the Policy Institute found in 1979

:49:21.:49:26.

almost 40% of Labour MPs had done manual or clerical work. By 2010

:49:26.:49:33.

that was only 9%. 60% of Government Ministers, 54% of Conservative MPs,

:49:33.:49:38.

40% of Liberal Democrats, they all attended fee-paying schools,

:49:38.:49:40.

compared with 7% of the population as a whole.

:49:40.:49:46.

So, is the future more Bullingdon than bog standard comp? Does it

:49:46.:49:51.

matter that the Commons is not quite as common as what it used to

:49:51.:50:01.
:50:01.:50:05.

Jack Dromey and David Amess welcome to our discussion. Does it matter?

:50:05.:50:10.

Yes, it does. Parliament is increasingly narrow in whom it

:50:10.:50:16.

draws from. Progress is being made in the last 20 years in relation to

:50:16.:50:19.

women and black and Asian ethnic minority people. Much more progress

:50:19.:50:23.

needs to be made, but it's absolutely wrong that parliament

:50:23.:50:27.

has come to be dominated by the professional middle classes and

:50:27.:50:32.

professional political classes. What I want to see is parliament

:50:32.:50:36.

truly representative, including of the world of work, and that means

:50:36.:50:41.

car workers, care workers, but also chief executives. A rich diversity

:50:41.:50:46.

from the world of work in the House of Commons. People who have

:50:46.:50:49.

walkeded walk and talked the talk and know from experience what the

:50:49.:50:53.

real world is like. And what can be wrong with that? I think the way

:50:53.:50:57.

things are at the moment class just doesn't matter at all. The House of

:50:57.:51:00.

Commons is completely irrelevant. You could shut it down tomorrow, it

:51:00.:51:04.

wouldn't make any difference. The Commons was destroyed since 1997

:51:04.:51:09.

and if we get our power back it might matter. My mother still lives

:51:09.:51:13.

in the original terrace house in the East End of London, returning

:51:13.:51:17.

the first Labour member of parliament - you are much posher

:51:17.:51:21.

than I am, Jack and the Labour Party is for goodness sake. I

:51:21.:51:27.

haven't got a hangup about class. I just want the country to be

:51:27.:51:33.

governored well. I was brought up in the East End of London, no

:51:33.:51:37.

bathroom, outside toilet, no - I am proud of it but I don't go around

:51:37.:51:40.

saying I am a working class Conservative, because all MPs are

:51:40.:51:44.

middle class. The idea that we are going to pretend we are working

:51:44.:51:48.

class... David, I am surprised at you from your background, because

:51:48.:51:52.

it's not healthy. I am being frank about all political parties,

:51:52.:51:56.

including our party. It is simply not healthy that your party is

:51:56.:51:59.

increasingly dominated by people from a public school background and

:51:59.:52:03.

bankers. They've all been journalists or lecturers, you are

:52:03.:52:11.

not representing the working - get real on this. Let me ask you this.

:52:11.:52:15.

How did your party get into a position, given it's called the

:52:15.:52:18.

Labour Party, that you made so much effort to get more women in and

:52:18.:52:22.

more ethnic minorities in, with some success as a consequence, but

:52:22.:52:25.

you actually forgot to get people from ordinary background in?

:52:26.:52:30.

agree with that. Historically the Labour Party was an alliance of the

:52:30.:52:33.

organised working class and the middle classes, absolutely, we need

:52:34.:52:37.

to be more than that because we need to appeal to the country as a

:52:37.:52:41.

whole. But there has been a sad decline of people from working

:52:41.:52:44.

class backgrounds, that's wrong. Doesn't that reflect the decline of

:52:44.:52:50.

the works class? -- Clarking class? There's been changes in the working

:52:50.:52:54.

class, but if you look occupationally and in class terms

:52:54.:53:01.

where people are drawn from, that's wrong. In relation to Labour,...

:53:01.:53:06.

will give you the last word. What Ed Miliband has said and he is

:53:06.:53:08.

right, is we need to change that. We need to be truly representative

:53:08.:53:12.

of the country as a whole. I oepl wish that the Conservative Party

:53:12.:53:19.

would do the same thing. Aren't you worried that you increasingly, you

:53:19.:53:23.

are becoming more public school again? There is the grammar school

:53:23.:53:26.

generation drops out, there are few of you getting on in the

:53:26.:53:31.

Conservative side, even the women and ethnic minorities that have

:53:31.:53:35.

broken through, they're all pretty posh. Right, first of all I

:53:35.:53:38.

definitely support grammar schools. I went to a grammar school and it

:53:38.:53:43.

gave me... What about the general point? Generally, I am not hung up

:53:43.:53:46.

where my colleagues have been educated. Even if they come from an

:53:46.:53:52.

increasingly narrow group? Look, I am concerned about their judgment

:53:52.:53:57.

and the advice that they get and whether the country's well governed

:53:57.:54:01.

I am not hung up about class. For goodness sake, the Labour Party to

:54:01.:54:06.

start talking about class when it was run by the most upper class

:54:06.:54:13.

Prime Minister ever. We have run out of time, sorry. We have to go

:54:13.:54:18.

to Somalia, which has more to worry about than class. I knew we

:54:18.:54:22.

wouldn't get anywhere. But I thank you both.

:54:22.:54:25.

From one battle to another. To Somalia, because representatives

:54:25.:54:28.

of more than 50 countries are meeting in London today to try to

:54:28.:54:32.

find a solution to two decades of turmoil and conflict in the country.

:54:32.:54:36.

The United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-Moon, and the

:54:36.:54:38.

American Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, are among those

:54:38.:54:41.

attending. The Prime Minister, who is leading the conference, said he

:54:41.:54:47.

wants to address the growing threat to global security posed by

:54:47.:54:52.

terrorists and pirates. Andrew Mitchell joins us now, on that

:54:52.:54:57.

basis, it's such a failed state. Everybody gress it has been --

:54:57.:55:01.

agrees it has been and to some extent still is. What can be

:55:01.:55:06.

achieved today? What is impressive about the conference so far is the

:55:06.:55:10.

absolute identity of purpose you have from all the disparate groups

:55:10.:55:13.

from inside Somalia. The countries of the region and the international

:55:13.:55:18.

community and the United Nations, everyone is at least focused and

:55:18.:55:22.

pulling in the same direction. And that is a breakthrough. We are

:55:22.:55:27.

clear what needs to be done now, and I hope that will be the outcome

:55:27.:55:29.

of this conference today which our Prime Minister has convened.

:55:29.:55:35.

Britain's been engaged in Somalia now for sometime, because of the

:55:35.:55:38.

dreadful humanitarian consequences, but the effects of this failed

:55:38.:55:41.

state across the world and the region are seen every day.

:55:41.:55:45.

course not negotiating with the militant group al-Shabaab, you

:55:45.:55:50.

agree with Hillary Clinton on that, do you? Yes, absolutely. They've

:55:50.:55:53.

been killing their own people, have been threatening and trying to kill

:55:53.:55:56.

people elsewhere in the region and the world. They are a barrier to

:55:56.:55:59.

progress in Somalia. Everyone understands that. What we need to

:55:59.:56:03.

ensure is that there is a political process from the bottom, not

:56:03.:56:07.

imposed from the outside, which people in Somalia can see is

:56:07.:56:10.

genuinely to their advantage and what's what this conference is

:56:10.:56:15.

seeking to achieve. If al-Shabaab is such a threat and still controls

:56:15.:56:19.

large sections of the country, what about a stronger military presence?

:56:19.:56:23.

Well, that is right and that is why the United Nations agreed yesterday,

:56:23.:56:27.

following the Foreign Secretary's resolution being passed, that we

:56:27.:56:31.

would boost the United Nations African Union troops there. The

:56:31.:56:34.

European Union will be providing funding to pay for these troops T

:56:34.:56:39.

will increase from something like 10,000 to 17,000, and that that as

:56:39.:56:47.

you suggest, is absolutely essential if progress is to be made.

:56:47.:56:54.

What about military... It fell to the Ethiopian forces pushing

:56:54.:56:57.

through there, that's good news for all the poor people who have been

:56:57.:56:59.

caught up in these dreadful circumstances in Somalia. What

:56:59.:57:03.

about military presence from us, for example, if it's such a big

:57:03.:57:07.

threat to security and the country is still in a very precarious state,

:57:07.:57:15.

what about our military presence? We are focused on boosting this

:57:15.:57:17.

African Union and United Nations force, and that's why the

:57:17.:57:21.

resolution to which I referred is extremely good news. Britain has

:57:21.:57:27.

given technical advice. We had a mission last year which went in and

:57:27.:57:29.

assisted with planning and its strategy, that's extremely

:57:29.:57:32.

important. It's an area where the British military have made a big

:57:33.:57:38.

big contribution. But the key thing is to support them, which is led by

:57:38.:57:43.

Barundi and Uganda who put their troops on the ground and suffered

:57:43.:57:45.

substantial reu and -- substantially and we need to

:57:45.:57:55.
:57:55.:57:59.

support them. Time before we go to What was the correct answer? I have

:57:59.:58:09.
:58:09.:58:12.

no idea. I suspect Give me some loving. No, let's hear it.

:58:12.:58:19.

# Same old place # Sweet home Chicago.

:58:19.:58:23.

Sweet Home Chicago because it's his home town. I know he was in

:58:23.:58:27.

Indonesia when he was a kid but Chicago is his home town before you

:58:27.:58:35.

start tweeting and annoying me. 1990 was the answer from the guess

:58:35.:58:41.

the year competition. Dr Claire, you get to pick. Mark from

:58:41.:58:48.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS