13/03/2012 Daily Politics


13/03/2012

Andrew Neil is joined by former trade minister Lord Jones. Plus news of David Cameron's trip to the US, and former chancellor Lord Lawson on the tax system ahead of the Budget.


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Rebekah Brooks and

:00:43.:00:47.

her husband are arrested by police investigating phone hacking at News

:00:47.:00:50.

International. They are among six people arrested in the early hours

:00:50.:00:54.

of this morning. We will have the latest.

:00:54.:00:58.

The relationship is special after all. Last year they flip burgers in

:00:58.:01:02.

the Downing Street garden. Tonight they will go to a basketball game

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in her while, as swing state. -- in Ohio, the swing state.

:01:11.:01:17.

And top of their agenda will be Afghanistan, following the horrific

:01:17.:01:21.

killings by erode US soldier. Has the course of the war changed

:01:21.:01:26.

forever? Come fly with the Daily Politics,

:01:26.:01:34.

as we examine the arguments for and against airport extension.

:01:34.:01:38.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, Digby Jones,

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former director general of the CBI and a trade minister in Gordon

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Brown's Government but I promised I would not remind him of that. I

:01:47.:01:50.

think I just have! Before that, the breaking news that

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happened after you had read your morning papers. The former chief

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executive of News International, Rebekah Brooks, and her husband,

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the racing trainer and Prime Minister's friend, Charlie Brooks,

:02:03.:02:07.

have been arrested as part of the on-going investigation into firm

:02:07.:02:17.
:02:17.:02:17.

hacking. They are among his six -- of their own hacking. They are

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among six suspects that have been arrested. She has been arrested

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before. What is it this time? first time she was arrested was in

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July last year, when she was arrested on suspicion of

:02:30.:02:33.

involvement in phone hacking. This time it is on suspicion of

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conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. She has actually been

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arrested a third time previously also by police investigating

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allegations of payments to police officers. Third time for Rebekah

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Brooks. For the other people arrested today, this is the first

:02:50.:02:54.

time they have been arrested, so these are new names. We do not have

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the names of four of them at the moment but the other person is

:02:58.:03:02.

Charlie Brooks, the racecourse train and husband of Rebekah Brooks.

:03:02.:03:08.

He first entered the phone hacking saga last summer, during the select

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committee hearings which Rupert Murdoch appeared in front of, and

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which generated headlines. At that time there was a small story that

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appeared in the media, which reported that police had been

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called to an underground car park near the home of Rebekah Brooks and

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Charlie Brooks, where laptop belonging to him and some other

:03:26.:03:31.

items had been recovered from a litter bin. This is the first time

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that he entered the saga but this is the first time he has been

:03:35.:03:39.

arrested. That changes the nature of what is going on. I understand

:03:40.:03:44.

if you cannot answer this difficult question. There has been a lot of

:03:45.:03:49.

arrests, including Rebekah Brooks, three times. Can your sources give

:03:49.:03:54.

you any indication yet whether any of these arrests will be turned

:03:54.:03:59.

into charges? Frankly, if charges are to follow, and that is and if

:04:00.:04:05.

at the moment, then that is likely to happen in the next couple of

:04:05.:04:08.

months. 44 people have been arrested in total. The total number

:04:08.:04:12.

of arrests is actually higher because some of them, like Rebekah

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Brooks, have been arrested twice. We have seen the expansion of the

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inquiry, not just phone hacking but computer hacking and police bribery.

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And not just journalists and police officers. Recently we saw the

:04:27.:04:29.

arrest of a Ministry of Defence worker and a member of the armed

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forces. So the net is widening, if you like. We presume all of their

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innocence until proved otherwise and that is how our system works.

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Am I right in thinking that if you are charged with perverting the

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course of justice, then that is a much more serious charge than phone

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hacking? Yes, it is. That would incur a serious prison sentence. So

:04:54.:04:59.

would phone hacking, depending on the severity of the crime. It all

:04:59.:05:03.

has to go through the court and we will see. In theory these carry

:05:03.:05:07.

prison terms. We don't know what the substance of the suspicions are,

:05:07.:05:11.

if you like, as they relate to the conspiracy to pervert the course of

:05:11.:05:17.

justice. But that is a serious crime and a serious allegation.

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Thank you very much. Fascinating stuff. 44 arrests so far, some of

:05:22.:05:31.

them double of course, or triple in Rebecca -- Rebekah Brooks's case.

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Now, David Cameron has set off for Washington, lucky guy. So has John

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Pienaar. Great to see you with the white -- White House and the

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Jefferson monument, my favourite monument in all of Washington. Am I

:05:48.:05:52.

right in thinking that both David Cameron and Barack Obama must be

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thinking privately if not publicly how to get out of Afghanistan even

:05:56.:06:00.

quicker than we were planning? think they have been thinking about

:06:00.:06:04.

getting out as quickly as possible for quite a while. The military

:06:04.:06:08.

chiefs in Washington and in London have at times been worried about

:06:08.:06:13.

the invasions of their leaders and whether it squared with what the

:06:13.:06:17.

military want to achieve. Since the killings at the weekend, the

:06:17.:06:25.

arguments have fled in Washington. One of the Republican runners, mood

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Gingrich, has been talking about it being not possible to win. -- Newt

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Gingrich. Opinion polls in America reflect those in Britain, that

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people do not understand the mission in Afghanistan and simply

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want to get out. That adds up to political pressure. The two leaders

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will be stressing that it is all about completing a mission and

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handing over responsibility for policing and security in

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Afghanistan to the police there. The deadline of 2014 will not

:06:56.:07:00.

change, but the leaders will want the public to see that troops on

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their way back. It is clear that David Cameron would like to get out

:07:06.:07:09.

as soon as is respectable. Barack Obama is under more pressure

:07:09.:07:15.

because he has got an election this year. It would be popular if he was

:07:15.:07:19.

to announce some kind of speed up. Keep the 2014 deadline, but move

:07:19.:07:24.

more quickly to get the bulk of the soldiers out. Yes. I don't think

:07:24.:07:29.

they will speed up the timetable, but that will be apparent and it

:07:29.:07:33.

already is apparent as one of Barack Obama's wishes. Just as it

:07:33.:07:43.
:07:43.:07:43.

is in -- apparent that the public want to see that as well. From the

:07:43.:07:46.

right of Republican Party, through the Democrats, through the public,

:07:46.:07:51.

that is the wish. That will be coming through loud and clear, but

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neither David Cameron or Barack Obama wants to be accused of

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cutting and running. They will have to square that. The political

:08:00.:08:04.

pressure is pretty apparent. city that you are in has woken up

:08:04.:08:10.

to a joint article by the President and the Prime Minister in the

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Washington Post. Other than the usual flannel, if I can put it that

:08:13.:08:18.

way, is there something interesting in it? They are setting out their

:08:18.:08:24.

agenda. Afghanistan, the shared objectives. Iran, a huge story

:08:24.:08:29.

around the world. It is a big issue in Washington. Listening to a

:08:29.:08:33.

senior Democrat, the chair of the defence committee, the other night

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he was saying that the strike on Iran's nuclear facilities was very

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likely to happen. Maybe not in the coming days and weeks but it was

:08:42.:08:46.

certainly likely in months. America's involvement, however

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tangential, is very much being discussed. That will be discussed

:08:50.:08:55.

between David Cameron and Barack Obama. Syria, it goes without

:08:55.:08:59.

saying, is big on the agenda. And the economy, is big on everybody's

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agenda. The leaders will be shoulder to shoulder, to use the

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old cliche, because they are both putting pressure on eurozone

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leaders to act more quickly. That might upset Nicolas Sarkozy yet

:09:11.:09:16.

again but you can't please everyone. We can't because we are at the BBC,

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but am I right in thinking that some people are speculating that

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David Cameron would be quite happy to see the re-election of Barack

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Obama when he looks at the Republican field? Maybe so! I think

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Barack Obama is still in pole position to win the election. There

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is no guarantee of that and that is very clear as well. In swing states,

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the Republicans are doing really rather well. The approval of the

:09:45.:09:49.

Barack Obama economic policy is really quite poor. Something like

:09:49.:09:53.

60% of people are not convinced on the last opinion poll that I saw.

:09:53.:09:57.

But you would bet if you had to that Barack Obama will be there and

:09:57.:10:03.

you will but that Downing Street is making the same essential. -- you

:10:03.:10:08.

would bet. They will be lapping up the plush red carpet that is coming

:10:08.:10:11.

David Cameron's way. We are not just talking about a flight on Air

:10:11.:10:16.

Force One, which no other leader has done, but the basketball, two

:10:16.:10:19.

mates out for the evening. There will be several thousand people at

:10:19.:10:23.

the White House greeting David Cameron. There is a banquet of

:10:23.:10:29.

thousands of people including the actor Damian Lewis, big in the

:10:29.:10:37.

Homeland to the show and an old Etonian. All of that will be going

:10:37.:10:43.

on. -- television show. It is priceless for David Cameron, and it

:10:43.:10:47.

will do him no harm at all. And if it turns out that a Republican wins

:10:47.:10:51.

the presidential race, I don't think they will be breaking down in

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tears about it because after all they know the Republicans will be

:10:55.:10:59.

on the side of a Conservative Prime Minister who supports public

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spending cuts and is an ally on the military front. They can build

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those bridges if they have to but for now they will be enjoying this

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connection with Barack Obama. you. Enjoy the rest of your work

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there. For the legal it, I think he has

:11:15.:11:25.
:11:25.:11:26.

just given away the answer to our competition! -- for those that were

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listening. And with the White House in the background, built by slaves,

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with Scottish stonemasons and burnt by the British then rebuilt after

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1812. How would you categorise Anglo-American relations at the

:11:40.:11:49.

moment? Good. I don't see any major falling-out. I think that Barack

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Obama has spread his net more widely. There is a special

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relationship, other than intelligence sharing. We have

:11:59.:12:02.

always thought there is one, but the Americans have never really

:12:02.:12:07.

acted on it. When I was trade minister for the last Government,

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which by the way I am the only minister that never belonged to the

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party politics... I thought you might get that in! I did it for

:12:17.:12:22.

Britain and trade. When I was in America, Americans have never

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treated the British with the special relationship in terms of

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trade. I think John Pienaar's summary of it was excellent. There

:12:30.:12:34.

will be a subliminal thing of Let's Get More business and trade going

:12:34.:12:44.
:12:44.:12:45.

as the two a economies start falling. There is a systemic change

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taking place in America's concerns. When it was the defeat of the Nazis,

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then the Cold War, and Europe was the crucible of the world's great

:12:59.:13:02.

fascists, then Britain and America were side to side. The biggest

:13:02.:13:07.

concern that America has today is the rise of China, and Britain is

:13:07.:13:12.

almost entirely irrelevant in that respect. So they are looking to

:13:12.:13:18.

their West. Yes, and what is more, if Britain is fabulously engaged

:13:18.:13:21.

with this open economy, if it is going to make it then it will make

:13:21.:13:29.

it by going East itself, going to Ager. -- are going to Asia. The

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biggest investor in Britain is still America and vice versa so

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there is still something there. On the Afghanistan point, you have

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raised this before and I am glad that you do, what does victory look

:13:43.:13:47.

like? You can tell a grieving mother that he laid down his life

:13:47.:13:51.

in the Falkland Islands to three people. He lay down his life in

:13:51.:13:55.

Germany to free Europe from the Nazis. What do you say? At the end

:13:56.:14:00.

of the day, we know that there will be a deal with the Taliban. Hamid

:14:00.:14:04.

Karzai is already banning women walking around in public. Victory

:14:04.:14:07.

is not something that will look very pretty. The more young people

:14:07.:14:14.

that died, the more the public will ask what it is in a door. I also

:14:14.:14:17.

hope he brings this up. While he is walking down the red carpet,

:14:17.:14:21.

sitting in Air Force One, having the banquet, there is a British

:14:21.:14:25.

person in solitary confinement in a jail in America without charge. He

:14:25.:14:30.

is not able to defend himself. He has been set because of the British

:14:30.:14:35.

Government's kowtow to the extradition treaty. He is not the

:14:35.:14:39.

first and I think there will be many. I would like David Cameron to

:14:39.:14:44.

change the law on this in Britain and sorry, Barack Obama, that will

:14:44.:14:48.

make it tricky for your guide to come over before we extradite

:14:48.:14:55.

people. -- your guys. I was brought up that people are innocent until

:14:55.:15:00.

proven guilty, but the extradition treaty is the opposite. We will see.

:15:00.:15:05.

I would not hold your breath. I don't know why I am saying that,

:15:05.:15:11.

but I will. I don't know why we are bothering with this, but this is

:15:11.:15:15.

the quid! What we David Cameron have the privilege of travelling on

:15:15.:15:20.

a while he is on his visit to the USA. This is only for viewers that

:15:20.:15:30.
:15:30.:15:36.

tuned in after the John Pienaar At the end of the show, Lord Jones

:15:37.:15:45.

will give us the correct answer. There has been plenty of

:15:45.:15:47.

speculation about changes the Chancellor could make to tax rates,

:15:47.:15:55.

ahead of next week's Budget. So, what measures might he bring in?

:15:55.:15:58.

Plans to shelve the 50p tax rate for those earning more than

:15:58.:16:00.

�150,000 have also been discussed. Initial Treasury calculations

:16:00.:16:10.
:16:10.:16:11.

estimate the rate currently brings in around �3 billion a year.

:16:11.:16:15.

The Lib Dems have been pushing for a "mansion tax" on properties worth

:16:15.:16:18.

over �2 million, as a way of getting more tax revenue from the

:16:18.:16:22.

rich. There is speculation that this could be offered to ease Lib

:16:22.:16:29.

Dem concerns on scrapping the 50p tax rate.

:16:29.:16:33.

He is also looking at scrapping tax relief on pension contributions for

:16:33.:16:39.

top earners. The Lib Dems say that this could

:16:39.:16:47.

save �7 billion, and make the system fairer.

:16:47.:16:50.

These measures are being considered to help pay for raising the income

:16:50.:16:55.

threshold, before you start paying tax to �10,000. It was part of the

:16:55.:16:59.

coalition agreement. Earlier this year, Nick Clegg

:16:59.:17:09.
:17:09.:17:12.

called for this to brought in faster than planned. A report by

:17:12.:17:14.

Christian social policy charity Care this week criticised the

:17:14.:17:17.

threshold rise as an inefficient way to help poor families, and

:17:17.:17:21.

found that our current tax system means families in the UK with one

:17:21.:17:24.

working parent are some of the hardest hit amongst the top

:17:24.:17:33.

developed countries. Former Conservative Chancellor

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:48.

Nigel Lawson chaired the report, and joins us now.

:17:48.:17:52.

Outstanding back, as you see the fiscal position the Chancellor is

:17:52.:17:58.

in, if it was you, what would you be minded to cut, if at all?

:17:58.:18:06.

should operate on both ends. I would do two things. I would bring

:18:06.:18:13.

the 50p tax rate down to 40%, which is where I've put it in 1988. You

:18:13.:18:18.

would lose no revenue at all in my judgment. Because, the Inland

:18:18.:18:27.

Revenue calculation is assuming no behavioural changes. If you factor

:18:27.:18:31.

in behavioural changes, it wouldn't cost you a penny. That is my

:18:31.:18:38.

expense. When I did cut it to 40% in 1988, we got more money from the

:18:38.:18:45.

rich rather than less money. The other end of the scale. Care. They

:18:45.:18:50.

are on to a very good point. There is a solution. Not to raise the

:18:50.:18:56.

threshold, that is inefficient, they are right. But introduce

:18:56.:19:00.

transferable allowances. In other words, the wife who gives up

:19:00.:19:04.

working in order to have children and he wants to look after children,

:19:04.:19:09.

should not lose her renounce, that should be transferred for the time

:19:09.:19:13.

being to her husband so they get the full benefit. I suggested that

:19:13.:19:21.

in mind 1985 -- by 1985 Budget speech and brought out a green

:19:21.:19:27.

paper. But I could not get Margaret Thatcher to agree to it. She felt,

:19:27.:19:34.

somehow, that women who were staying at home, lacked gumption

:19:34.:19:37.

and get up and go. She identified very strongly with the woman who

:19:37.:19:44.

went out to work. Like herself. Very often, the woman who is

:19:44.:19:47.

bringing up young children, maybe working much harder than her

:19:47.:19:54.

husband. And she should not be discriminated against. That is

:19:54.:20:01.

where the poverty is. Where there is only one earner, in a two child

:20:01.:20:07.

family. And I would do those two things, and get the money which has

:20:07.:20:17.
:20:17.:20:18.

been squirrelled away, which is not nearly as important.

:20:18.:20:23.

Sticking with the thresholds. They have become quite an iconic policy

:20:23.:20:26.

for the coalition. The Liberal Democrats who think they are

:20:26.:20:30.

pushing for it, and quite a few Tories like the idea of taking

:20:30.:20:37.

people out of tax, it has become a litmus test for this coalition.

:20:37.:20:42.

It is a question, am sure something will be done. It is a question of

:20:42.:20:52.

how much you do. When I started off, by taking a lot of people out of

:20:52.:20:55.

tax and raising the threshold this did actually, but subsequently and

:20:56.:21:01.

felt it was better to cut the rates of taxation. That has a more

:21:01.:21:07.

dynamic effect, than acting on the threshold. The one thing I would

:21:07.:21:12.

like to say, and a lot of businesses say this. If someone on

:21:12.:21:16.

the minimum wage could pay no tax, that would encourage a lot of

:21:16.:21:20.

people to say, it is not worth being on the dole, it is worth

:21:20.:21:26.

working. How you achieve that, which is your argument, the one

:21:26.:21:35.

thing about the single mum at home, it's his her contribution to the

:21:35.:21:44.

economy, providing a stable environment for a young person.

:21:44.:21:48.

There is a lot and the press about this. It is a bigger contribution

:21:48.:21:52.

to society. There is a strong social argument for this change,

:21:52.:21:59.

yes. Your argument, the argument of the charity, is that, although what

:21:59.:22:04.

they're doing will take low earners out of tax altogether, it's not

:22:04.:22:10.

just them who benefit. The bulk of the cost goes to middle and us who

:22:10.:22:14.

find their first �10,000... As sometimes wonder, is that the

:22:14.:22:19.

unspoken intention of a policy, a way of putting money into the

:22:19.:22:24.

pockets of middle income? I do not think the Lib Dems have really

:22:24.:22:32.

understand what they are talking about. Badenoch think they -- I

:22:32.:22:37.

think there is another reason for having lower taxes, rather than

:22:37.:22:43.

people taking out -- taking people out of tax altogether. There is

:22:43.:22:49.

always a danger, if you take large numbers of people out of tax, then

:22:49.:22:57.

they will feel that all they can ever actively lobby and press for

:22:57.:23:02.

his higher benefits. And they don't have to pay. So I think, if you

:23:03.:23:09.

want an educated political debate, it is better not to do this but cut

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:25.

tax right across the border. These are straitened times. -- the board.

:23:25.:23:29.

The government is limited in what it can do now. This particular

:23:29.:23:33.

proposal has so much going for it and I am glad this charity, Care,

:23:33.:23:38.

has brought out is well written and well argued report at this

:23:38.:23:43.

particular time. The Chancellor's big challenge

:23:43.:23:46.

isn't just to make tax changes which will be regarded as fair in

:23:46.:23:50.

these times, but to get some growth back into the economy. What would

:23:50.:23:55.

you do? I would deregulate. There has been some deregulation but

:23:56.:24:00.

there is far too much regulation. Much more rules and regulations,

:24:00.:24:07.

which hamper British business. Some of it comes from the European Union,

:24:08.:24:13.

which is a nuisance. Even so, you can interpret that the way some of

:24:13.:24:18.

our continental friends interpret it, rather loosely. There is a lot

:24:18.:24:22.

which is our own regulation which you can get rid of. Give me an

:24:22.:24:30.

example? That is the important thing to do. You get businessmen

:24:30.:24:35.

complaining all the time about the amount of regulation areas. I think

:24:35.:24:38.

also, incidentally, there is another change on the tax front I

:24:38.:24:45.

would like to see. I'd like George Osborne at least to focus on it. I

:24:45.:24:50.

am very concerned about the existing system of corporate

:24:50.:24:56.

taxation as it affects banks'. Because, they get tax relief if

:24:56.:25:01.

they finance themselves from a loan capital. If they finance themselves

:25:01.:25:05.

from equity, they do not. As a result, they have far too much

:25:05.:25:11.

borrowed money and not a big enough equity base. I think we really need

:25:11.:25:18.

to address that. They get the tax relief on interest but not on the

:25:18.:25:28.
:25:28.:25:28.

dividends they pay. Where are you on the 50p top rate? It has become

:25:28.:25:32.

symbolic in these difficult times. The Chancellor keeps saying we're

:25:32.:25:36.

in it together. What would you do for growth? I would put the

:25:37.:25:42.

political argument Ford, what Britain has to do, we have to

:25:42.:25:47.

increase the amount of money we raise. The politics is in direct

:25:47.:25:52.

conflict. 50p does not raise the money. There are lots of other

:25:52.:25:56.

things were you could but you have to when the politics. There is no

:25:56.:25:59.

energy going into the Liberal Democrats or Tories to win the

:25:59.:26:04.

politics. They're quite prepared to let the politics when. That really

:26:04.:26:09.

worries me. We will end up with lots of ways people can avoid it.

:26:09.:26:13.

One thing I would do for growth more than anything, I would abolish

:26:13.:26:17.

national insurance had visions for employers for people who employed

:26:17.:26:25.

fewer than 25 people, for the next people they employ. If you employed

:26:25.:26:30.

had five and go to 26, he went pay contributions employing the next

:26:30.:26:36.

person. Why do we have a Jobs Tax? Every other tax in Britain taxes

:26:36.:26:42.

money in some form, capital, income. This tax taxes you if you just

:26:42.:26:49.

created job. It is barmy. It is �5.2 billion, so you can't just

:26:49.:26:55.

abolish it. May as says and then further about deregulation. The

:26:55.:27:00.

first point, you can stimulate activity by removing these shackles

:27:00.:27:05.

were it doesn't cost you any thing at all. There is another reason,

:27:05.:27:09.

internationally. We have always been less regulated than

:27:09.:27:15.

continental Europe. They had said they would follow us but they're

:27:15.:27:22.

going back again following the crisis in the euro. And the

:27:22.:27:28.

Americans now are into regulation in a heavy way. The banking bill.

:27:28.:27:35.

Other legislation. We have the opportunity to be the less

:27:35.:27:43.

regulated major economy, and attracted the -- because of it.

:27:43.:27:53.
:27:53.:28:00.

are right, that is at no cost. We will see what the Chancellor

:28:00.:28:05.

says in the Budget on 21st March, live here on BBC Two. A week

:28:05.:28:10.

tomorrow. The Royal College of GPs has said it is willing to work

:28:10.:28:13.

again with the government on helping to implement the changes to

:28:13.:28:17.

the NHS in England. The body had been omitted from talks with

:28:17.:28:19.

government, after declaring its opposition to the NHS Bill last

:28:20.:28:23.

month. Dr Clare Gerada, who heads the college, has now written to the

:28:23.:28:27.

Prime Minister, saying she wants to help find a "way forward". Dr

:28:27.:28:32.

Gerada appeared on this programme last month. Here's what she had to

:28:32.:28:41.

say then. I represent 44,000 general

:28:41.:28:45.

practitioners of which over 90% when we surveyed them recently

:28:45.:28:51.

wanted me to ask for withdrawal of the bill. Against a background of

:28:51.:28:56.

1.5 years of consultation, three surveys, five executive councils, a

:28:56.:29:00.

national conference, endless consultation. I can categorically

:29:00.:29:07.

tell you my members do not want this bill. Some of the parks of the

:29:07.:29:12.

Bill of good. Bidding GPs in control of money, but impatience

:29:12.:29:17.

first. In its totality, the Bill is a best, it is flawed, the Bill will

:29:17.:29:22.

not achieve what you and Andrew Lansley is setting out to achieve.

:29:22.:29:26.

Dr Clare Gerada speaking to me last month. The NHS Bill is going to be

:29:26.:29:30.

under discussion in both Houses of Parliament today. Let's go over to

:29:30.:29:36.

Central Lobby now, and join Carole Walker.

:29:36.:29:44.

preoccupying the House of Lords and house of Commons. It is continuing

:29:44.:29:47.

its somewhat tortuous process through the House of Lords. In the

:29:47.:29:52.

Commons this afternoon, we are going to have an opposition day

:29:52.:29:55.

debate with they the same even at this late stage, the government

:29:55.:30:02.

should stop the bill in its current form. Diane Abbott speaks on health

:30:02.:30:10.

for Labour. And Lord Jones for the Lib Dems. We heard the Royal

:30:10.:30:15.

College of GPs, the head, vehemently opposed to these plans,

:30:15.:30:18.

saying it is time to sit down with the government and work on putting

:30:18.:30:26.

them into action. Shouldn't you be Her position has not altered and

:30:26.:30:34.

she believes that it is a bad bill. Some of the GPs are taking these

:30:34.:30:42.

roles. Some of them are, but the vast majority want the bill to be

:30:42.:30:47.

dropped. The point about Dr Gerada's position is that it has

:30:47.:30:52.

not altered. She is opposed to the bill in its current form. The Royal

:30:52.:30:55.

College would always have worked with the Government if it became

:30:55.:31:01.

law, and in that sense nothing has changed. Do think there is a change

:31:01.:31:06.

of position because that after the acceptance, the weeks and months of

:31:06.:31:10.

wrangling, this bill will become law in pounds less than a week? I

:31:10.:31:17.

think it is a watershed. It is very difficult to explain to people how

:31:17.:31:21.

this bill has changed, especially in the Lords over the last few

:31:21.:31:26.

weeks, on things like competition, regulation of foundation trust,

:31:26.:31:29.

regulation of private income, things like that. I think that

:31:29.:31:34.

realisation is beginning to become true to members of the Royal

:31:34.:31:39.

College of GPs and other Royal Colleges, I hope. I think we are in

:31:39.:31:43.

the position that the bill will get more acceptance outside now. I

:31:43.:31:47.

think at the end of the day it will go through. I think that is wishful

:31:47.:31:51.

thinking. My view is the same as the majority of the Lib Dem members.

:31:51.:31:57.

In its fundamentals, this bill has not changed. You don't think...

:31:57.:32:04.

how does she know what the Lib Dem members think? They passed a motion

:32:04.:32:08.

agreeing that great progress had been made in House of Lords. The

:32:08.:32:11.

only line they took out of the motion was one are saying to give

:32:12.:32:14.

it a third reading and that is because they did not know enough

:32:14.:32:19.

about the bill as a whole. That is a very their position for a stock

:32:19.:32:29.
:32:29.:32:32.

that was the key line to take out. -- that is a very unfair position.

:32:32.:32:38.

That was the key line to take out. If they have been allowed to vote

:32:38.:32:41.

against the bill, they would have. They were allowed to vote for the

:32:41.:32:44.

motion that they wanted, which is the one that accepted the progress

:32:44.:32:48.

that had been made. That is why Nick Clegg had to use an air-raid

:32:48.:32:54.

shelter. If this bill does go through, as many people expect,

:32:54.:32:59.

what a future Labour Government overturn it? Oh, yes. Andy Burnham

:32:59.:33:04.

has said clearly on a number of occasions that if this bill goes

:33:04.:33:07.

through, when we are in Government we will overturn it and pick the

:33:07.:33:15.

worst -- on pick the worst of the damage. Even though we are prepared

:33:15.:33:19.

to make the best of it, there is a consensus that it will be damaging

:33:19.:33:29.
:33:29.:33:32.

and it will cause recommendation. It may -- they are hoping to

:33:32.:33:36.

persuade members of your party to stop this bill. Do you think there

:33:36.:33:40.

is any prospect of that happening now? It will go through. The

:33:40.:33:44.

extraordinary thing about Labour is that they have now performed a

:33:44.:33:49.

somersault, basically. They used to be pro choice and that competition

:33:49.:33:53.

had a limited place in the NHS. They had to 2006 Act that opened

:33:53.:33:58.

the door to price competition, which we are now regulating more

:33:58.:34:02.

effectively. It is extraordinary that they are doing this and many

:34:02.:34:10.

members will be unhappy if they appealed -- try and repeal this and

:34:10.:34:15.

later. The 2006 Act did not mention competition. We still believe that

:34:15.:34:19.

the private sector has a role to play and we certainly believe in

:34:19.:34:23.

choice but this is the wrong bill at the wrong time. We believe it is

:34:23.:34:26.

not too late for the Government to drop it. They really got themselves

:34:26.:34:31.

in a twist last week. They voted against the 49% limit, so they

:34:31.:34:37.

voted to open it. That shows the confusion within the Labour Party.

:34:37.:34:42.

OK, thank you very much. There is still a great deal to discuss on

:34:42.:34:46.

this bill. It does now look as though it is on course to become a

:34:46.:34:53.

law fairly shortly, but in the Commons this afternoon Labour will

:34:53.:34:57.

be saying that it should be dropped. Goodbye from Westminster.

:34:57.:35:01.

Thank you. Last week was brutal in Afghanistan and as we were saying

:35:01.:35:05.

it should feature high on the agenda in discussions between

:35:05.:35:09.

Barack Obama and David Cameron. Both are under pressure following

:35:09.:35:19.
:35:19.:35:22.

recent terrible events to increase the pace of withdrawal. Yesterday,

:35:22.:35:32.
:35:32.:35:32.

there were questions about the killing by the rogue US soldier.

:35:32.:35:35.

Does the Minister accept that there is a growing feeling in this

:35:35.:35:40.

country, no doubt and United States as well but certainly in Britain,

:35:40.:35:44.

that this war cannot be one? This is a war when people no longer

:35:44.:35:49.

accept the official line. Our security depends on our military

:35:49.:35:53.

continuing to be in Afghanistan. Barack Obama and the Prime Minister

:35:53.:35:58.

are meeting this week. Would it not be wise for them to accept that

:35:58.:36:03.

there is this feeling, this strong feeling, that this war has gone on

:36:03.:36:09.

now for over 10 years, that it cannot be won? We are on the right

:36:09.:36:12.

course. We have the right security strategy, but I think what he is

:36:12.:36:17.

getting at, and this opinion is widely held, that what we need to

:36:17.:36:22.

find is a political solution to the future of Afghanistan. Although

:36:22.:36:24.

progress on this has been disappointingly slow, there are now

:36:25.:36:30.

some signs of encouragement. I believe that there is a realistic

:36:30.:36:33.

prospect that the political process will be under way within the

:36:33.:36:37.

timescale that I am talking about. The idea that we can start

:36:37.:36:44.

challenging the plan to withdraw early worries me a great deal.

:36:44.:36:48.

Because soldiers need certainty. They need that certainty for their

:36:48.:36:53.

offices to plan and for soldiers to get used to it. It will be

:36:53.:36:56.

increasingly challenging for the soldiers over the next two years as

:36:56.:37:01.

we go towards withdrawing from combat operations. Can I ask the

:37:01.:37:05.

Minister whether he agrees with that assessment? We have got to

:37:05.:37:08.

support our soldiers are utterly and completely and the plan is set

:37:08.:37:12.

and must remain set now. The best thing we can do is for the

:37:12.:37:18.

international community now have to appoint an international mediator

:37:18.:37:22.

with international backing, to frame the international strategy

:37:22.:37:26.

internally and regionally, which is so desperately needed. If we do not

:37:26.:37:33.

stop working on it now, every day will show we can chances of leaving

:37:33.:37:38.

Afghanistan. -- start working on it. This is an isolated incident. There

:37:38.:37:42.

will be some calling for urgent withdrawal, but can I stress this

:37:42.:37:46.

is not just about security? It is also about governance and I hope

:37:47.:37:56.

that will be discussed at the summit into cargo. -- in Chicago.

:37:56.:38:00.

Tobias Ellwood, you saw him on the take and now he is live in the

:38:00.:38:04.

flesh. He is a former captain in the army and we are also joined by

:38:04.:38:09.

John Hemming, Liberal Democrat MP. John Hemming, if you were in charge

:38:09.:38:14.

of our Afghan policy now, what would you do? I would be looking

:38:14.:38:17.

for a earlier withdrawal. The problem is the dynamic of the

:38:17.:38:22.

situation is about the occupation, the presence of forces from outside

:38:22.:38:26.

Afghanistan. In an a symmetric conflict, when one side is powerful

:38:26.:38:31.

and the other relatively weak, it is a motions that drives things. If

:38:31.:38:36.

we are looking for real peace, which is the political solution,

:38:36.:38:40.

then maintaining the forces is not working towards that. Can you give

:38:40.:38:44.

us an idea of what you mean by an early withdrawal? I understand that

:38:44.:38:48.

the final combat troops will be gone by the end of 2014 and the

:38:48.:38:52.

draw down will begin before then. We always have to be concerned

:38:52.:38:56.

about the future safety of our troops and I will always take

:38:56.:38:59.

advice from the military about how quickly and then to be they can

:38:59.:39:08.

withdraw. I voted to withdraw some years ago now. -- and how safely

:39:08.:39:12.

they can withdraw. What we are doing is very cruel for the troops.

:39:12.:39:19.

If we gave them a military objective, they could achieve

:39:19.:39:22.

anything we set them, but a political objective is not

:39:22.:39:27.

something they can achieve. They will come out anyway, and whether

:39:27.:39:31.

we have got something that looks like victory or not. We are still

:39:31.:39:37.

coming up. The case for early withdrawal would be where you leave

:39:37.:39:41.

Afghanistan and where things would go in the near future? We don't

:39:41.:39:44.

want to leave an unstable Afghanistan and we don't want

:39:44.:39:51.

another civil law. -- civil war. We did not start training the Afghans

:39:51.:39:56.

properly until 2008. And only now are they starting to take over at

:39:56.:40:01.

the locations that they need to hold to provide that security.

:40:01.:40:04.

Underneath that a brother of security, what has not happened is

:40:04.:40:11.

improvements to governance. In the same way as happened in the 1840

:40:11.:40:16.

and the early 20th century, Afghanistan was never properly run.

:40:16.:40:20.

We needed divergence of governance so that Afghanistan is properly run,

:40:20.:40:28.

rather than it is the -- this knee- jerk reaction that we need to get

:40:28.:40:32.

out which will leave possible civil war further down the line. We have

:40:32.:40:36.

spent all this blood and treasure already. If we get out too soon, we

:40:36.:40:40.

will leave the Afghans not ready to take over, so we need to stay, do

:40:40.:40:47.

we? You are ignoring an important point that Tobias Ellwood is making.

:40:47.:40:50.

He is one of the few politicians that understands tribal than

:40:50.:40:55.

foreigners. We are imposing a Western model on Afghanistan which

:40:55.:40:59.

cannot work. There is a power structure based on tribes and we

:40:59.:41:03.

are imposing a Western model on that. So it does not matter how

:41:03.:41:09.

long we stay? Tobias is right. In terms of resolve in the political

:41:09.:41:12.

side, there needs to be something that recognises the power

:41:12.:41:22.
:41:22.:41:24.

structures that exist. We are driving a 1000 years of political

:41:25.:41:30.

structures in the UK it over 10 years, which is also a mistake.

:41:30.:41:35.

Lots of people watching this would say that the imposition of a

:41:35.:41:40.

Western-style on to Afghanistan is wrong. Therefore to get it devolved

:41:40.:41:44.

down into tried to get the corruption out, to somehow ensure

:41:44.:41:48.

that the Taliban do not come out of the caves in 2014 and start a civil

:41:48.:41:52.

war, whatever we do, everybody would say that we are not going to

:41:52.:41:58.

pull that off between 2012 and 2014. This is cultural change. Either you

:41:58.:42:02.

are going to be in for an incredibly long haul, which we all

:42:02.:42:08.

know won't happen, but what is so magical about 2014? Firstly, we are

:42:08.:42:16.

seeing progress. That -- let's not deny what is happening. We are

:42:16.:42:20.

taking charge of the security of the country. This is not matched

:42:20.:42:24.

with improvements in governance and Reconstruction and Development.

:42:24.:42:29.

This country is rich in minerals and so forth but the economic plan

:42:29.:42:33.

is not there. As we focus on draw down, we need to press forward to

:42:34.:42:41.

encourage better forms of governance. To give a brief example,

:42:41.:42:48.

Hamid Karzai gets to a point every headteacher in Afghanistan, which

:42:48.:42:52.

is far too centralised. Everybody is appointed by the President. This

:42:52.:42:56.

sort of reform needs to be focused on. He has just banned women

:42:57.:43:00.

walking around Kabul on their own without a male consort. We know

:43:00.:43:04.

that is so that you can go down the road to the Taliban and say that he

:43:04.:43:11.

is trying to meet them somewhere. If I was a soldier from any country

:43:11.:43:15.

where life was being threatened every day, I know they are paid to

:43:15.:43:18.

go in harm's way, but at least they have got to think things are being

:43:18.:43:23.

changed. We are running out of time but I want to ask you this.

:43:23.:43:27.

Regardless of the substance of your argument, do you get a sense that

:43:27.:43:32.

you are pushing at an open door because of what has happened?

:43:32.:43:37.

difficulty is, one of the eternal problems with any military conflict,

:43:37.:43:41.

we have to be primarily concerned about our security and the security

:43:41.:43:45.

of our armed forces. It is difficult to say that what we need

:43:45.:43:48.

to do is pull out given the sacrifice is that people have made.

:43:48.:43:52.

But it is worse to have more sacrifices because we are making

:43:52.:43:56.

the difficult decision to put out now. Are you pushing at an open

:43:56.:43:59.

door? It is difficult to say because the Government needs to

:43:59.:44:03.

work with native. If you don't know it is better not to answer the

:44:03.:44:09.

question. Thank you. We will see what is decided by the President

:44:09.:44:12.

and the Prime Minister. It is bound to be a key part of any final

:44:12.:44:18.

statement after the British visit Later this month, we'll get an idea

:44:18.:44:21.

of the government's vision for the future of Britain's airports. The

:44:21.:44:24.

aviation industry say that expansion will help the economy,

:44:24.:44:27.

while environmental groups fret that the green agenda is being

:44:27.:44:35.

chucked out in favour of growth. Here's Adam.

:44:35.:44:41.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have begun a descent into Westminster

:44:41.:44:51.
:44:51.:44:52.

Right now, politicians have got aeroplanes on the brain. The

:44:52.:44:56.

coalition agreement between the Tories and Liberal Democrats rules

:44:56.:45:00.

out any new runways at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. Last year,

:45:00.:45:04.

the government started a consultation on the future flight

:45:04.:45:08.

plan in the UK. We will hear their initial thought this month, paving

:45:08.:45:13.

the way for a full-blown aviation strategy to be published next year.

:45:13.:45:18.

What are some of the options people have been talking about?

:45:18.:45:21.

The departure to London Heathrow has been cancelled because the

:45:21.:45:26.

airport is full. The owners of the UK's biggest airports so that means

:45:26.:45:32.

they are stuck in a holding pattern. We are short of capacity, which

:45:32.:45:36.

means we are more vulnerable to delays and congestion, and short of

:45:36.:45:41.

capacity to put in on new routes, such as to China. We announced one

:45:41.:45:45.

new route recently but our competitors are lapsing several new

:45:45.:45:48.

routes, they're getting further ahead of us in terms of trade links

:45:48.:45:52.

with growing parts of the world. Which suggests either another

:45:53.:45:57.

runway or permission to operate even more flights.

:45:57.:46:02.

Check in for the first flight to Boris Ireland will open in 13 years.

:46:02.:46:06.

To realise the dream of the mayor of London for a new airport in the

:46:06.:46:11.

Thames estuary, a lot of obstacles have to be overcome, from the risk

:46:11.:46:14.

posed by birds, to the aviation routes of other countries, and the

:46:15.:46:21.

enormous cost. For those obstacles can digest, some are more difficult.

:46:21.:46:25.

What we need is for the government to say this is something they can

:46:25.:46:31.

look at seriously. The 11:45am flight to Manchester,

:46:31.:46:35.

Bristol and Birmingham is now ready for boarding. The UK's regional

:46:35.:46:39.

airports are keen to grab a bigger slice of the growing demand for

:46:39.:46:44.

flights. But all this horrifies green groups.

:46:44.:46:49.

Passengers could always forget the plane and get the train instead.

:46:49.:46:54.

you do not need to fly to Paris, you can take the train. If you can

:46:54.:46:57.

take a train to Manchester or Edinburgh, let us look at those

:46:57.:47:03.

options, sensible runway capacity so you're not having to chock-a-

:47:03.:47:08.

block few runways with those short hop flights and you can have proper

:47:08.:47:12.

flight space for long-haul flights. So there aren't easy answers when

:47:12.:47:17.

it comes to aviation policy. Passengers boarding at Westminster

:47:17.:47:23.

International Airport, prepare for some turbulence. Adam Fleming.

:47:23.:47:27.

We've still got our guest of the day, Digby Jones, with us. To talk

:47:27.:47:31.

more about the future for airport expansion in the UK, we are now

:47:31.:47:34.

joined by the Chair of the Energy and Climate Change Select Committee,

:47:34.:47:42.

Tim Yeo, also Conservative MP for South Suffolk.

:47:42.:47:46.

Can we clarify, is it your understanding of that the

:47:46.:47:49.

Conservatives, and the coalition government, they are still opposed

:47:49.:47:54.

to a third runway at Heathrow? his coalition policy, and happen to

:47:54.:48:00.

think it is wrong. What would you do? Britain needs a modern

:48:00.:48:04.

transport infrastructure which means more airport capacity. But it

:48:04.:48:08.

kick in China we have no direct links and we will miss out.

:48:08.:48:14.

Provincial cities. We now at last have cover for changing the

:48:14.:48:19.

coalition position. The EU has applied a new emissions limit. That

:48:19.:48:25.

means building another runway does not actually increase emissions

:48:25.:48:32.

because they're already subject to the EU restrictions. So to build a

:48:32.:48:37.

brand new airport? He is more practical to build a third runway.

:48:37.:48:41.

The cost otherwise would be enormous. It is also in the wrong

:48:41.:48:47.

place. People do not live in the Thames estuary, they tend to live

:48:47.:48:50.

west and north. The journey for most passengers would get worse if

:48:50.:48:56.

we had a Thames estuary airport. People say we are in danger of

:48:56.:49:00.

losing out. They say it aviation happens to be an industry Britain

:49:00.:49:07.

is a world leader. Heathrow was the world's premier airport. Great for

:49:07.:49:12.

Britain. They now say business is going to Frankfurt, Amsterdam,

:49:12.:49:21.

Paris. That is so right. We are in danger of ceasing to be a hub for

:49:21.:49:27.

the developed world. If you look at a brute, about 60% of the

:49:27.:49:37.
:49:37.:49:43.

passengers on a route come from somewhere else - route. You have to

:49:43.:49:51.

feed it through a hub. Frankfurt has 16 destination cities in China.

:49:52.:49:57.

It brings it in everywhere else from Europe. We're trying to be

:49:57.:50:02.

point to point and it doesn't work. If you're going into the Thames

:50:02.:50:07.

estuary, more people belong to the virus pp than to the political

:50:07.:50:17.
:50:17.:50:19.

parties in Britain! -- RSPB. It all comes back to a third runway at

:50:19.:50:23.

Heathrow. If you had the Thames estuary and closed Heathrow, help

:50:23.:50:30.

any politician can defend the loss of jobs? It has to be a third

:50:30.:50:37.

runway. The case for a third runway, it reinforces the hub nature. I

:50:37.:50:42.

interviewed unexamined a couple of weeks ago. He got the sustained

:50:42.:50:46.

light aeroplane from Aberdeen to Heathrow. It was full of people

:50:46.:50:51.

going on to the Far East, Singapore. You won't get many direct flights

:50:51.:50:56.

from Aberdeen to Singapore. They needed Heathrow. They were saying,

:50:56.:51:01.

you can fly from Aberdeen to Frankfurt, we will go there.

:51:01.:51:06.

Heathrow remains potentially a world-class airport. It Sadiq is

:51:06.:51:10.

not that at the moment, some of the tunnels are out of date. It needs

:51:10.:51:15.

extra capacity as well. There is an interesting environmental argument

:51:15.:51:21.

in favour of runways, less stacking. Emissions for aircraft are

:51:21.:51:25.

particularly high when they are waiting to land. You could make a

:51:25.:51:28.

positive green case for saying reducing the congestion at Heathrow

:51:29.:51:34.

in the air for people arriving, and on the ground, taking off, to cut

:51:34.:51:42.

emissions. You have two problems. You have a Conservative Transport

:51:42.:51:46.

Secretary whose constituency is on the flight path into Heathrow. And

:51:46.:51:52.

you have a coalition partner who as I understand, their policy isn't

:51:52.:51:57.

just no runway in Heathrow, they are saying no runways in the south

:51:57.:52:02.

east. Justine Greening has made a good start as Transport Secretary,

:52:02.:52:07.

I have to say. I am genuinely encouraged by it. She might like to

:52:07.:52:11.

pass the decision about the runway to somebody else who does not have

:52:11.:52:16.

the same constituency problem. My constituency is in East Anglia. I

:52:16.:52:22.

was concerned when I thought Stansted was going to expand.

:52:22.:52:26.

Liberal Democrats, they're wrong about this. Britain, if it is going

:52:26.:52:30.

to be a world-class economy, it needs a world-class transport

:52:31.:52:36.

infrastructure, which means high- speed trains, and more capacity. We

:52:36.:52:44.

are falling behind badly on transport issues. We have to be

:52:44.:52:49.

brave with the coalition partners and say, we want Britain to be in

:52:49.:52:56.

the Premier League economically, that means more airport capacity.

:52:56.:53:00.

love -- I'd love the politicians to say to a penance, where you see

:53:00.:53:07.

this country in 2025. High-speed rail, excellent. Secondly, at the

:53:07.:53:14.

moment, you would seek a vibrant Paris and Netherlands taking the

:53:14.:53:24.
:53:24.:53:25.

growth away. You end up with a second Tear Britain. That is awful.

:53:26.:53:35.

-- tier. A few days ago, Apple announced

:53:36.:53:39.

more than 25 billion apps have been downloaded from its app store. And

:53:39.:53:43.

everyone it seems wants to get in on the craze. The Prime Minister

:53:43.:53:50.

already has an iPad. We know about his Angry Birds obsession. Not

:53:50.:53:52.

content with that, he's had a customised tablet computer produced,

:53:52.:54:02.
:54:02.:54:06.

costing �20,000. So what special apps might he have on it?

:54:06.:54:10.

It's thought the PM will be able to access all kinds of stats, with a

:54:10.:54:14.

data app: Polling trends, the markets, NHS waiting times, and

:54:14.:54:19.

crime and unemployment figures will all be available. We're not sure if

:54:19.:54:23.

he'll have a nuclear option on the app, keeping him in control of the

:54:23.:54:32.

country's nuclear arsenal. But we do expect him to have a personal

:54:32.:54:35.

trainer app for days when we can't go jogging in St James' Park.

:54:35.:54:43.

Something to keep him motivated and fit.

:54:43.:54:47.

We know the PM likes to catch up on episodes of The Killing and

:54:47.:54:57.

Desperate Housewives. So a film downloads app is sure to feature.

:54:57.:55:00.

We're joined now by Torsten Stauch, an app designer, from the company

:55:00.:55:08.

Red C. What to do think the Prime Minister

:55:08.:55:17.

will have? Apart from those absolute necessity is! I pick it is

:55:17.:55:22.

obvious, what we are seeing with the promise to getting his own app,

:55:22.:55:29.

is the fact there is a shift in the world from games, everyone talks

:55:29.:55:36.

about Angry Birds, to be in productivity tools. The taxpayers

:55:36.:55:39.

alliance might be say this is a waste of money, I couldn't disagree

:55:39.:55:44.

more. The more time he spends on his own app, the better it is for

:55:44.:55:48.

the taxpayer. I have no doubt any iPad usable low productivity

:55:48.:55:53.

increases when they are using a tablet. There has been a suggestion

:55:53.:56:01.

maybe MPs should all be given an iPad or tablet, and although they

:56:01.:56:09.

might cost �400 each, we think, why should we spend money on this?

:56:09.:56:14.

Would it make them more efficient? Somerset it would save money.

:56:14.:56:19.

course it would save money. You are saving on paper. There is good

:56:19.:56:24.

reason to do that at least. You are able to use it in many more

:56:24.:56:28.

different places. Sitting in a meeting and using the laptop screen

:56:28.:56:33.

is not the way you want to work. To have a discreet tablet is better,

:56:33.:56:40.

you can have information to hand way you are not behind your desk.

:56:40.:56:47.

What sort of app would make your life easier? Seriously, I would

:56:47.:56:52.

definitely would welcome a locked of the stuff I could read on trains

:56:52.:56:58.

and in the back of cars were, at the moment, for by printed it out?

:56:58.:57:04.

Whereas, if it was on a tablet, that would help me. Good for the

:57:04.:57:10.

environment. The less serious one, definitely, the in-depth analysis

:57:10.:57:15.

of why Leicester Tigers is the best rugby team in Britain, and why God

:57:15.:57:22.

is alive and well and keeping goal for Aston Villa! You created an app

:57:22.:57:31.

for George Galloway? He is well up on understanding how we is

:57:31.:57:34.

communicating -- he is communicating with his followers.

:57:34.:57:39.

If you can get into their pocket, they can be watching a video of

:57:39.:57:43.

your latest campaign or speech while standing in the queue at a

:57:43.:57:48.

supermarket, that makes sense. They might not be doing that if you're

:57:48.:57:55.

there -- by their computer. Doesn't it killed the art of

:57:55.:57:58.

conversation? There is an argument for that. Having my own children, I

:57:58.:58:03.

try not to get them into technology too quickly. That doesn't mean you

:58:03.:58:10.

can't use technology well. It must be managed. It learns -- it means

:58:10.:58:13.

you learn things and gives you something to talk about.

:58:13.:58:18.

children, we are training children to build the Rhone apps. Previously,

:58:18.:58:24.

the ICT curriculum was dead boring. Turning the children away from

:58:24.:58:33.

digital or media careers. This can interest them.

:58:33.:58:36.

Time for the quiz. What will David Cameron have the privilege of

:58:36.:58:41.

travelling on whilst he's on his official visit to the USA.

:58:41.:58:51.
:58:51.:58:51.

Force One. The first leader from a foreign country ever to be on it.

:58:51.:58:55.

Andrew Neil is joined by former trade minister Lord Jones. Plus news of David Cameron's trip to the US, former chancellor Lord Lawson on the tax system ahead of the Budget, and how to make a phone app fit for a prime minister.


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