Browse content similar to 16/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Another day, | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
another big speech from Ed Miliband on the economy. Other job to | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
promises from Labour's real job guarantees real? Harriet Harman | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
joins us from the party's big gathering in Coventry. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Has the relationship between the Conservative Party ever recovered | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
from scenes like this? One Tory MP believes it is time to kiss and | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
make up but are the unions up for The Tories have a new leader. David | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
Cameron is still in charge in Westminster but there is a new top | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
Tory in Brussels. He join us for his first interview since getting | :01:14. | :01:22. | |
the job. And plans to charge �15 decline Big | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
Ben have been shelved. -- to climb Big Ben. We speak to one MP that | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
thinks that charges should still be applied. | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
I am joined by Jackie Ashley and The Guardian's James Forsyth, | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
hopefully. He is stuck in traffic. Labour are gathered for an event | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
which is not their traditional spring conference. That has been | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
cancelled. This looks like an accelerated version. They get | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
together in Coventry. How is Ed Miliband doing? He is ahead in some | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
polls, behind in others, but since his performances in PMQs, he seems | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
to be sorting out his troubled leadership. Good use? Not so fast. | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
His critical friend blogger at Dan Hodges says that he is losing his | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
grip on the Shadow Cabinet. Let's see what he has to say. He has had | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
improved performances at PMQs. Why don't you get behind him? Well, | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
because I am his critical friend, as you save. Labour are doing | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
better in at the polls. There was common consensus that in the | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
recession, Labour would see double- digit poll leads and we are not | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
seeing that. His own poll ratings are stuck in the basement, | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
subterranean. He is stuck at minus 14 and the reality is you cannot be | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
Prime Minister from that position. As you have said, we have seen this | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
week the amazing spectacle of open revolt against the prospect of Ed | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
Miliband's staff coming in. What is this open revolt? For the people | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
out there, is it significant? very significant. We had a | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
situation where from the most junior to the most senior members | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
of staff on Monday people were standing up and being openly | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
critical. Who? Obviously I am not going to embarrass people buy it | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
naming them and I will not cost them their jobs. It has been | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
reported not just by me but by other newspapers as well. Obviously | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
there is always a reaction when changes are afoot. A isn't that | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
always the case? It is not the first time that Labour has had an | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
internal row over changes. No, and in any organisation, like the BBC | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
or the Conservative Party, people are resistant to change. People | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
will recall working under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. These are | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
people that are used to very centralised control. They are not | :04:05. | :04:14. | |
used to a laissez faire, let 1000 flowers bloom type environments. | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
They will object to control from the consent of but they also object | :04:17. | :04:26. | |
to a lack of control and lack of leadership. -- control from the | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
centre. In terms of Ed Miliband's standing, do you think he is being | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
unfair in the way that he is not supporting him and his slight | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
improvement? Yes, I would question whether he is a friend at all! | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
think we were being generous! slightly wonder what you and your | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
cohorts among the bloggers want. Do you want Ed Miliband to be forced | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
out? Do you think that David can come back? And if you are allegedly | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
Labour why are you so down on him? For some people, whatever Ed | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
Miliband does, it is wrong. There is this general derision and | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
sneering. It does not help. What I want is the Labour Party in | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
Government and I want a Labour Party Prime Minister and I don't | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
think anybody that I speak to in the party of the record, among the | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
general people in Westminster and outside, actually sees Ed Miliband | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
as the future Prime Minister. you do want him out? No. Who do you | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
want in? It is not for me to pick the leader of the Labour Party. It | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
is for me to analyse where the leader of the Labour Party is at | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
present. You are absolutely right, 12 months ago, early on, I was | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
critical of his leadership. I was told that I have to wait and he | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
worked introduce themselves to the electorate and people would love | :05:54. | :06:02. | |
him. -- he would introduce himself. But they do not. Labour is ahead in | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
the polls. The first, they are five points ahead. There was an | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
interview with Peter Hain, his closest supporter, in which he said | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
on the record that the Labour Party was not in a position to form a | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
majority Government in the next election. That they were fighting | :06:20. | :06:28. | |
for the largest single party. When was the last time we heard a senior | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
member of a political party three years before an election say they | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
cannot win it? What about the shadow members? Are they saying | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
that Ed Miliband cannot ever be Prime Minister? In terms of Ed | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
Miliband's authority within the Shadow Cabinet, to be honest that | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
was week from the beginning, given the tainted mandate that he got in | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
the leadership election. He won the leadership election! Get over it. | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
Well, he won the leadership election but not among his MPs are | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
or the constituents. He won and of the system that there is. I did not | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
say he did not win. I am saying it was a tainted mandate, which it was. | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
What do you think? Certainly some people will not accept that Ed | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Miliband dared to stand against his brother and they will do anything | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
they can to make life difficult for him. Whether that will be good for | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
the Labour Party in the long run, that they claim to support and want | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
to see in Government, and the Lib Dem and conservative coalition, I | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
don't know. Maybe they will wake up and realise what is going on. | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
not just former supporters of David. Ed Miliband has not enjoyed the | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
support and has not imposed his authority on the Shadow Cabinet. | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
Thank you. Ed Miliband is focusing on youth | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
unemployment this morning. The Labour Party has unveiled a new | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
scheme to get work as young people into jobs. Here is how they say the | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
real jobs guarantee will work. After 12 months of unemployment, or | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
young people aged 18 to 24 will go on a six-month long paid job, | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
preferably in the private sector. This would apply it to 100,000 | :08:03. | :08:11. | |
people currently. The Government would pay for -- for wages to the | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
company for 25 hours per week, �4,000 per job. The company would | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
cover the training and development of the young person for a minimum | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
of 10 hours per week, and the money for this would be provided out of | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
the backbone is tax allocation, �600 million currently. -- Bank | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
Bonas tax allocation. Under Labour job is guaranteed paying at least | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
the minimum wage for 16 months with real training. -- for six months. | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
Real work, it real jobs, real prospects for our young people. | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
Let me tell you, let me tell you, if I was the Prime Minister, I | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
would be putting all my energy behind mobilising every single | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
business in my country behind this programme. I would mobilise every | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
single voluntary sector organisation behind this programme. | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
I would never stand by. A Labour Government would get our young | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
people working again. Ed Miliband. Joining me from Coventry is the | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
deputy Labour leader, Harriet Harman. Thank you for coming on the | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
programme. We have been hearing about the real jobs guarantee. You | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
are guaranteeing any young person that has been jobless for a year | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
and paid job. It is the job creation scheme? Absolutely. I | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
think everybody recognises that there is a real problem with the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
number of young people that are unemployed and cannot get work. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
They realise it, their parents and grandparents realise that it is the | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
problem and business realises it is a problem. It seems the only people | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
that do not realise that it is the problem is the Government. We are | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
saying that really something should be done about this. Many businesses | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
have full order books but they cannot actually comply and fulfil | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
those orders because the banks are not lending. Actually, therefore, | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
they cannot take people on. It would help business to take people | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
on and provide vital opportunities for young people. It is too | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
dispiriting. You finish call, you go out to make your way in the | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
world and you are told sorry. -- you finish school. But are they | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
real jobs? Is it just a ruse to occupy people for six months? What | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
happens at the end of that period? They are real jobs. As I said, many | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
businesses have full order books but cannot comply with the orders | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
because the banks are not lending. Therefore there is work that people | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
could be doing if employers could afford to employed them. This is | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
helping business and young people. This will help business generate | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
more profits for the Revenue. What the Government is doing with their | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
economic strategy is shrinking the economy back. And we want action by | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
Government, not only to help people but not support the economy through | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
this difficult time. -- but to support the economy. How many jobs | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
will be in the private sector? think most would be. Who has signed | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
up to it? Well, we would get business to sign up to it and we | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
would invite them to sign up to it. If you say to business that their | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
side of the bargain is to provide decent training, but we will play a | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
proper wage, the national minimum wage, for this person, then that is | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
a good opportunity for business. They would not have to be forced | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
into it. I think many would come forward. I think many businesses | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
have a sense of responsibility about this. They don't like the | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
idea that there is a whole generation of young people that | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
will be dispirited and demoralised and will lose their confidence. | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
They will never be able to find their way in the world. OK... | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
don't think business will be reluctant to come forward. But if | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
they are... Harriet, if you do not manage to fill the jobs, and I am | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
sure some businesses will come forward, then in effect the state | :12:16. | :12:25. | |
will be playing for the jobs? The state will be employing them. | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
will be playing? The people, out of the tax, and so there is | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
responsibility that we want to see from those at the top. The bankers | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
bonus tax would finance this. The bankers could well afford it. It | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
should not just be business as usual. Their responsibility would | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
be to pay the tax on the bank as bonuses and that would finance it. | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
It would not come out of any other public services. The bankers bonus | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
tax will rage how much money? -- rose how much money? I know that we | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
have worked out that figure but I will have to get back to you. It | :13:04. | :13:12. | |
would finance all those that have been unemployed the 12 months. It | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
has been costed and it can be raised. What is the cost of the | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
real jobs guarantee scheme? I have not got that figure to hand but I | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
can absolutely assure you that Ed Balls, as our Shadow Chancellor, | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
has sorted it, along with Ed Miliband. That is not an issue. | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
costs are important. I thought I was just explaining to you how it | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
would work. Oh, yes, the costs are important. People have to be | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
reassured that it will raise enough money. At that the money will cover | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
the real jobs guarantee, however much it will cost. I know that it | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
will, I just have not got the figure at my fingertips and I | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
apologise. There is no mystery about it. The other issue is that | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
the bankers bonus tax will be committed to paying for other | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
things, like... No, it has not been committed to other things. Ed Balls | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
said it would pay for 25,000 affordable homes. That will also | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
provide apprenticeships for young people. Are you going to be over | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
committing this money that you think you can raise from bankers | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
bonuses tax which is not certain in terms of how much you will raise | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
and you already committing it to the real jobs guarantee, 25,000 | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
affordable homes and what else? are being very careful. I am sorry | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
that I have not got the detailed numbers for you. But they are at | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
hand, just out of reach here. It is a carefully costed programme. The | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
alternative, which is what the Government is doing, is saying that | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
as far as bankers and their bonuses are concerned, it is business as | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
usual and the Government will protest but do nothing. Meanwhile | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
we see young people feeling as though they are being thrown on a | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
scrappy before they have begun. there will be sanctions, would | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
there? Yes, I think they will have to take it. They cannot say they do | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
not want to do a job. They would have to take the job or else there | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
would be sanctioned, yes. But I think the truth is that young | :15:25. | :15:35. | |
The costs of the scheme are important in terms of making | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
spending commitments, and you do not want to be accused of saying we | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
are addicted to state intervention and state paying for jobs real or | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
not. They're going to run into trouble. It's a bit unfair this are | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
far away from the election to expect specific costings. Harriet | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
Harman is not a Treasury spokesman, so you were maybe being a little | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
unkind there. Am I being unfair? It's a slightly novel strategy when | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
you are a party trying to re- establish fiscal credibility to | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
make a major announcement like this and go wanted to anybody want not | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
have the figures. It's particularly damaging because the Tory attack | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
this morning is they spent his bankers' bonus tax several times | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
over. They treated as an unlimited pot of money. Labour have their own | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
costings. The two parties disagree on the numbers. The costings to | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
cover those two schemes. What is interesting is the sanctions. It's | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
a sign of how far the welfare debate has moved, that the Labour | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Party are now saying, if you won't take this job at the minimum wage, | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
you will use your benefits. they are being paid. That is the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
difference. And like the work experience programme. Tesco taking | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
all of these people for nothing. But you say psychologically the | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
Labour party... I think Liam Byrne sees this as a shift towards a | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
tougher position on welfare. They are deeply concerned about being | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
continually out plant by the Tories on this issue. This perception that | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
the Labour Party were for people on benefits was extremely damaging to | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
them. That polling shows they cannot win without being seen to be | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
much tougher on shirkers. Lots of Labour supporters feel very | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
strongly about that. They are working very hard, they are seeing | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
their standard of living going down. They believe they are paying for | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
these malingerers. There is an element of hype in that, but it is | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
a real issue. Labour is right to move on to this territory. Will the | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
scheme work? Despite the fact Harriet Harman is saying she is | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
going to get private employers coming in to take these people on. | :17:38. | :17:46. | |
Youth issue - that unemployment is a real issue. Undoubtedly. There is | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
the fear of particularly women, the next generation, are going to have | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
it worse than we have it. That is a real danger. Anything that talks | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
about what Ed Miliband calls the promise of Britain, ensuring that | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
the next generation does as well or better than we have, his | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
potential... Where are these private employers who were | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
desperately in need of these workers? We will have to wait and | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
see who actually signs up to it. Stay with us. Nice to have you on | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
the programme, well done for making it. 50p off not 50p, that is the | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
question. We will finally find out next Wednesday when George Osborne | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
announces his budget. But it seems the decision has already been taken | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
one way or the other, or will be by the end of today. Our political | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
correspondent joins us with more. Is it all going to be signed off, | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
they had the meeting at the very top and they will decide on all | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
those decisions today? What we know is today is the deadline for the | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Office of budget responsibility's scorecard. Something as important | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
as a tax rate is going to have to be sorted out by the end of today. | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
The Prime Minister and the Chancellor have both been off on | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
that trip to the United States. They are due to have a phone call | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
with the other members of the quad, with Danny Alexander and with Nick | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
Clegg, to try and finalise this. But it's a very difficult issue. | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
The Chancellor is under pressure from both sides. In his own party | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
many are saying it is acting as a disincentive and they should scrap | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
it. The Lib Dems are making it clear that if you are going to | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
scrap this, then they are looking for other taxes on the wealthiest. | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
It is a very difficult issue, but it looks as though they are going | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
to have to reach some sort of conclusion by the end of today. | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
We've had this being played out in public anyway. Everyone putting in | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
their Penny's worth as to what's going to happen. That will continue | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
over the weekend, now it's been nailed down today. That's right. | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
The Prime Minister's spokeswoman today was saying this was a normal | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
part of coalition politics, when you've got two different parties, | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
you have different views on specific issues. Yes, the Liberal | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Democrats have been very open in saying, well, if you are going to | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
scrap a tax on the highest earners then that has got to be replaced by | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
some sort of other attacks on wealthy, if not a mansion tax, | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
which was there before option, then this idea of making sure that the | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
wealthiest pay a fair share of their earnings. Some sort of | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
clampdown on tax avoidance. I'm sure we will be seen that in get | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
any case. But there's a wider political difficulty here for the | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
government. George Osborne and the Prime Minister keeps saying we are | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
all in this together. There are many people out there on low | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
incomes and those on middle incomes who are about to lose things like | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
their child benefit, he may not take too kindly to be Chancellor | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
who stands up and says, Well, I'm going to cut taxes for people | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
earning over �150,000. It's a difficult issue but it's got to be | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
sorted out today. Should he scrap the 50p top rate of tax? I think | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
you should. It is clearly acting as a disincentive. It is also | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
encouraging people to get to - not get into incredibly difficult | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
situations. It's a great boom industry for accountants. The Ken | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
Livingstone style companies of one person, all that kind of thing. | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
Which is legitimate was Dot yes, perfectly legal and proper. But it | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
causes problems for the Exchequer. The most interesting thing is | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
George Osborne, last week at the Lib Dem Conference, the Lib Dems | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
were saying in private that George Osborne, Nick Clegg and Danny | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
Alexander have come up with multiple ways of scrapping the 50p | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
rate, but the obstacle is the Prime Minister, who is very queasy about | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
the politics of it. That is presumably because you think | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
strategically and politically it's the wrong thing to do. He has two | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
worries. The first is that it underlines the Tory party's | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
reputation as being the party of the rich. The second is that if you | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
do this, it will be the only thing that people notice in the Budget. | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
You can do lots of other stuff for Business and growth but people will | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
only notice the 50p rate decision because it does obsess the media | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
and is so politically symbolic. Would a 45p top rate of tax being | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
reasonable substitute, if that is one of the options being talked | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
about? They think more people would perhaps pay that. Accountants and | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
economists can argue forever about the figures. Some people would say | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
it doesn't take into account the people that leave the country | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
because of these punitive I tax rates. Who knows about the actual | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
rate. It might well be the compromise Osborne comes up with. | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
But in a way, that's a despise nobody because it's still giving | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
the message that the Tories are the party of the rich. It doesn't | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
please the Lib Dems and it has not cut it even up to satisfy the Tory | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
right wingers. He almost can't win on this one. How much of a boost to | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
do you think it will give to David Cameron and George Osborne in terms | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
of Conservative backbench support if he does cut it? It will be | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
massive. The point about the Tory party in coalition is it becomes | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
fractious. Much of the goodwill that David Cameron created with the | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
veto has begun to ebb away. His backbenchers are getting a bit more | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
difficult and a bit more tricky. To do this would be a real sign that | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
this is a government prepared to take the tough but economic the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
necessary decisions that are on the politically popular. It would send | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
a big symbol out there that this is still a tax-cutting party. As Jack | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
Lee said, the costs would also be high. -- Jackie. Is it still worth | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
it in terms of getting that red meat to his own backbenchers and | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
sacrificing whatever message he is hoping to dispel? There is an | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
element whereby the Conservatives see that they've been losing out | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
recently to the Lib Dems. Talk to almost any Conservative backbencher | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
and Babel said the Lib Dems are winning on this, that and the other. | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
He has to do something to steady the ship. What about things on | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
child benefit? That's another big issue. I don't see much movement on | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
that. Do you not think... I think they will raise the threshold. So | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
you won't lose it if you earn �44,000. They will raise it higher | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
than that. To 60,000, 80,000? still have anomalies that the | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
double or single earner. I think they will raise it up by a bit more | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
than we expect. What about the money that was supposed to be | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
raised by his 50p top rate of tax? There's been a debate as to how | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
much in terms of precise figures they were going to get. There's a | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
report from Revenue and Customs saying how much the tax will raise. | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
It will show that it raises less than it was projected to raise. It | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
was projected to raise a few billion? It will show its rate in | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
the low billions. That will be the justification. The argument will be | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
that the measures we are putting in place, which will be dressed up as | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
some of these measures that Lib Dems have talked about as part of | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
their tight contracts, will ensure that the rich pay more than their | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
current debate a. The attempt will be to say that the anti-avoidance | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
measures they are taking, but things they are clamping down a | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
will raise more than the 50p rate does. It will be interesting to see | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
how far they go along with the Match Attax are not, or whether | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
it's just the tycoon tax. doesn't sound as though that is | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
going to happen. We will find out on Wednesday. We will be either | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
pleasantly surprised to disappointed. There's been a | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
leadership election this week. I hope you didn't miss it. If you did, | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
I can help. Conservative MEPs have elected Richard Ashworth their new | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
leader, after his predecessor, Martin Callanan, was appointed | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
leader of the broader parliamentary group. British Conservative MEPs | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
used to sit in the main centre- right bloc and the European | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
Parliament. But since 2009, they've taken a more eurosceptic stance. | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
Along with allies in a new group called the European Conservatives | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
and reformists. Richard Ashworth has won the leadership after a | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
nail-biting election. The 26 Tory MEPs were split 13-13, between Mr | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
Ashworth and Syed Kamall. Ashworth has a hard act to follow. His | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
predecessor, Martin Callanan, it was a known as an outspoken critic | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
of much of the European project. But it's been suggested Mr Ashworth | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
will take a more moderate line. Mr Martin Callanan opposed the bail- | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
out of Greece and criticised the British government on going soft on | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
EU institutions. He also said the UK should withdraw from the | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
European Court of Human Rights, unless there are major changes. | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
Richard Ashworth is with us now. You won the contest but it wasn't a | :26:23. | :26:31. | |
resounding result, was it? We've always got a range of | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
interests and a range of views in the party will stop this is all | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
part of the democratic process. I am delighted to have one. It's been | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
an open fight. Let's get it back to business and more of the same. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
sounds like it might be quite difficult because it was quite a | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
tight contest. Would you agree that the group is pretty well split? | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
We have a range of opinions, that's right and proper and healthy. But | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
the one thing that Martin Callanan, my predecessor, particularly it | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
took as a united group of people, working together to achieve a | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
common goal. I don't think we are split. I think my job is to keep | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
the whole group focused on the project which we have a head, and | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
there's an awful lot to be achieved. I'm looking forward to getting down | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
to business with them. One of the issues, people will remember the | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
departure from the mainstream right of centre bloc, the EPP, because it | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
was too federalist. Tory MPs joined the European Conservatives and | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
reformists group. Are you minded to look at this issue again, talk to | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
David Cameron about it? I'm not. Rather than being so simple as | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
saying it is too federalist, which it is incidentally. We believe in | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
reform of the European Union. We think there are massive global | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
challenges with which we confront - - with which we are confronted. The | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
world order is changing with the emergence of Far Eastern economies, | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
which will challenge us in terms of competitiveness. Challenging in | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
terms of energy secured, challenging in terms of food | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
security. These are the issues the European Union should be focusing | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
its fire on. Not the distractions we have now. Do you feel you are in | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
the right position and group to do that? That is what David Cameron | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
set the group up to do. That's the consistent message that both the | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
British Conservative Start It All Over Again are you supportive of | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
that as well? When David Cameron walked out of negotiations before | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
Christmas over the fiscal contract, critics said it was because Tories | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
went in the meetings in the main centre-right bloc with President | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
Sarkozy and Angela Merkel, that these things went ironed out | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
beforehand. Do you have some sympathy with that? No. Absolutely | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
don't. By having our own distinct group now, we have our own voice. | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
If you were a member of the EPP, the large centre-right Conservative | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
group, it would be their appointed speaker who spoke, not us. No, we | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
have our own voice and platform right now. We are articulating that | :29:08. | :29:18. | |
message. You are part of this new group and a happy to be part of it. | :29:18. | :29:18. | |
It has a sister organisation of Conservatives and reformists | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
throughout Europe called the alliance of European Conservatives | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
and reformists. You are not in that, are you? Personally or the group? | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
First illegal stop no. Why not? Because I have a split loyalty. | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
First and foremost, I'm a member of the budget committee of the | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
European Union. I have a very strict view of life, there are | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
three redline issues. One, the size of the European budget must be | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
frozen. Any increase will be below the inflation level. It's a real- | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
terms reduction in the European Union budget. Two, an absolute | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
freeze on the UK net contribution. Three, the UK rebate is a red line | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
issue. If I'm going to be particularly robust on that, I have | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
to be a little bit hard on ourselves, when we look at the | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
expenditure... But you can do that as an individual signed up to that | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
group. You can, but the point that I'm making is if I want to go into | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
the budget committee and say I want a reduction in the level of | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
European expenditure, that means as, as well as everybody else in Europe. | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
The parliamentary groups expenditure has been going up and | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
up. I've got a point to make. The members of the European Parliament, | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
look, economies and efficiency start with you. Set an example for | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
everybody else. Most of your colleagues are signed up to it | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
individually. I don't quite understand why it precludes you in | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
that way. The Conservative Party is signed up to it. The chairman has | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
spoken to it. Now your leader, isn't there an expectation that you | :30:53. | :31:03. | |
:31:03. | :31:03. | ||
No doubt, but not before I have spoken to the party chairman about | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
being consistent in our message. We want a reduction in European | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
expenditure, and that means us as well as everybody else. Are you | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
less euro-sceptic than the rest of the grid? I don't like being | :31:15. | :31:23. | |
pigeon-holed at all. I take a hard- nosed view on the economy and | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
agriculture because those are my jobs. Please don't pigeonhole me. | :31:27. | :31:37. | |
Are you less euro-sceptic than York predecessor? I doubt it. You say | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
you're your own man. Are you with people calling for withdrawal from | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
the European Court of Human Rights? Let's be clear that the European | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU. They are entirely | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
different. The European Court of Human Rights came in 1948 and they | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
did an honourable job. There are for th member nations. Actually it | :31:59. | :32:09. | |
:32:09. | :32:10. | ||
is not fit for purpose now. -- 48 member nations. The treatment of | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
minorities was an acceptable when it was created but today made his | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
murder link in national law, the national conferences, overriding | :32:18. | :32:28. | |
our own courts and that is not acceptable. -- today it is | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
Madeleine in national law. Has he got a difficult job? I don't envy | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
him. There is not a split between pro-Europeans and anti-Europeans. | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
It is about how euro-sceptic you are. This debate was split between | :32:42. | :32:50. | |
13-13. I think if your opponent had won he would have been happy to be | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
pigeon-holed as a euro-sceptic. There is this divide in the Tory | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
party over that. It will be interesting to watch over next | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
couple of years. There is a big prize at stake. What will the Tory | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
manifesto in 2015 say about the European Union? The coalition but | :33:07. | :33:16. | |
certain -- puts certain limitations on what we can say about the | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
European Union. I think there will be a big fight. That is not very | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
generous towards David Cameron. We have moved on. But have you? The | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
split shows something quite different. The message we are | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
putting in council and in the European Parliament is that Europe | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
has got to be relevant to the future. You have got to start | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
addressing the really big issues that affect the people of Europe. | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
There are 23 million people out of work in Europe today and stagnant | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
economies. Let's focus on that and stop banging on about the | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
distractions that we have. Start reducing red tape, encourage small | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
businesses to flourish. That is what we should be doing and that is | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
our message. That is why I think it is wrong to pigeonhole us as euro- | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
sceptics. The trouble is, as James has said, you say you are your own | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
man, but the Tory party at Westminster, which is what voters | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
here are interested in, is very split. It is more euro-sceptic. | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
is a question of how euro-sceptic you are. The us. They are not | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
interested in reforming the institution. They are interested in | :34:25. | :34:33. | |
these basic questions of being in or out. Are you sad to see Roger | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
from the UK Independence Party go? Roger is a man of certain dues and | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
if he feels that his political home is with the UK Independence Party, | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
then I wish him well. I never have a party with people's political | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
views, but I do have a problem with their behaviour. That is my opinion | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
from now on. I do not discriminate against people but have an extreme- | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
right or left wing view, that is right and proper and healthy. But | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
at the end of the day we can only have one leadership and one | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
discipline. Do you accept that if Roger had not gone to the UK | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
Independence Party then you would not have won the election? I cannot | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
possibly speculate on that. But it is probably true, with the figures | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
being so tight. I really could not command. OK, thank you very much. | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
If the post-war history of the relationship between Conservatives | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
and the unions was strained, it was in the 1980s that it broke out into | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
open warfare. The miners' strike of 1984 continues to resonate 30 years | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
later. Is it time for the Tories and trade unions to move on? We | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
will talk to the Tory MP that thinks it is time. First we | :35:46. | :35:56. | |
:35:56. | :36:03. | ||
# Nobody told me there would be days like these. | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
# Nobody told me there would be days like these. | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
The miners' strike in 1984 lasted one year. It was a watershed in | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
British politics. For Margaret Thatcher, it was unfinished | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
business from a decade earlier. It was every bit an idealistic | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
political struggle between left and right, as it was about management | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
first is the workers. This is Coventry, and this was once the | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
jewel in British Coal's crown. It is still operational today, just. A | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
Labour MP in the 1980s recalls all too well that it was not only the | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
miners that were beaten. One of the legacies of the miners' defeat was | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
that you could not challenge the Government. The poll tax battle | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
he's to that of because the ordinary people showed that you | :37:07. | :37:17. | |
:37:17. | :37:17. | ||
could challenge the Government. They had to accept that Margaret | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
Thatcher was right about many things, but would that have | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
happened if she had lost the miners' strike? The victory of the | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
Tories over the miners left the impression that nobody else could | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
challenge the Public enemy, the leadership of the pro-market | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
policies. That affected the Labour Party and it was one of the reasons | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
why I left the Labour Party in the 1990s because of the changes that | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
took place. That was absolutely the pay-off for Margaret Thatcher. It | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
also meant there was a generation in some parts of Britain that has | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
never been able to vote Conservative since. That is a | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
problem for today's Tories. First because of energy policy. The | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
strike and subsequent privatisation of the coal industry all but | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
destroyed deep mining in Britain. It was this failure of an overall | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
energy strategy that left the miners' and the pits marooned. And | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
yet we have these fast coal reserves and we are only seeing now, | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
with the possibility of developing the gas and the oil from shale, a | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
new opportunity opening up. Just think how well Britain would be | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
placed to develop something like shale and shale gas with clean coal | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
if only we had kept all of our knowledge about deep mining in | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
Britain. # Nobody told me there would be | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
days like these. Today politics is more centrist, | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
more consensual. Should David Cameron be reaching out to our | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
seven million-strong trade unions, rather than letting them remember | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
how much are a Conservative Government used to hurt back in the | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
day? Robert Halfon, the Conservative MP | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
from Harlow, and Karen Jennings, the assistant general secretary of | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
Unison, join us. Welcome to the programme. Robert, Margaret | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
Thatcher was committed to breaking up the unions. She wanted to break | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
the power and the backbone of the unions. Did you support that? | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
have to make the distinction. She was there to stop union extremism | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
but actually what she did, there were 270 branches of trade | :39:26. | :39:34. | |
unionists around the country when she was leader. It was one of the | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
first organisations that she ever joined, Conservative trade unions. | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
But ideologically it was not just dealing with the trade unions. It | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
went broader than that, didn't it? The print unions in Wapping, it was | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
about reducing power of trade unions generally. My grip that are | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
always said we should use legislation to assist trade | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
unionism. -- Margaret Thatcher always said. She was also trying to | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
deal with extremism in the 1980s. Are you saying that she was | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
misunderstood? You have to look at everything that she did and not | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
just part of it. Why did she picked this fight with the miners? Was it | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
just about extremism? Most people would accept that Arthur Scargill | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
was fairly hard line and the unions had a significant amount of power | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
at that time. What I am arguing in my paper is that we need a new | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
relationship with the trade unions and we need to distinguish between | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
the members on the ground and the union militants. What do you say to | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
that distinction in terms of Margaret Thatcher's dealings with | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
the miners and Arthur Scargill? Well, I was a nurse at that time | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
and it was very difficult. The draconian legislation that came in | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
on the back of Margaret Thatcher and John Major was hostile, | :40:50. | :40:57. | |
actually hostile to trade unions. I don't share the same vision of | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
Margaret Thatcher's relationship with the trade unions. Has it have | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
irreparably damaged relations with unions, that memory of it? Even | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
though it was a long time ago and one could arguably say it needed to | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
be done in terms of dealing with militants. Has it irreparably | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
damage relationships with the Government? Between the Tories and | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
the unions, I mean. A think there is a lack of trust between the two. | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
I suggest that is what you are trying to repair now, with the | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
direction of travel of the writings that you have done. The Tories are | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
back in Government. As a trade union we need to be talking to the | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
Tories about what we can do for our members and how we can progress | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
some of the social inequalities but still exist. You do want to build | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
bridges. Robert, you would like to build those bridges because you | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
have to, they are in Government. Yes, we have to work with this | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
administration, with whoever is in Government. Even when the Labour | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
party was in Government, we had our differences, but of course we | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
believe that Labour holds the same values and printable us that we do, | :42:08. | :42:15. | |
where is the Tory party, I think, has different values. -- values and | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
principles. How to combat that image? You could argue that | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
communities that suffered in the 1980s are not going to forgive and | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
forget and that issue of trust is very important. 39% of your union | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
members voted Conservative according to opinion polls. It | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
shows that one-third of trade union members voted Conservative. My | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
argument is that unions are community-minded and they get | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
involved in the Big Society, but they also capitalist institutions | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
and conservative in many ways because they get lots of | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
Conservative support. Is it one of the problems that the rhetoric that | :42:54. | :43:02. | |
we hear from the Conservatives leadership is union-bashing? -- | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
isn't one of the problems? That rhetoric is still there. I think | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
there is a feeling on both sides that they are opposite side of the | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
political divide, them and us. That is probably a problem for both | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
sides. I am not suggesting we return to beer and sandwiches at | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
Number 10. We do need to talk. You are underestimating what Margaret | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
Thatcher did. She fundamentally changed the unions, they are much | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
less powerful and union membership has gone down. She really destroyed | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
the powerful unions and I think there is a different relationship | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
to be built but it needs to be different in tone. Do not have to | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
choose sides? When it comes to it, there have been strikes over | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
pensions. If more action is taken by unions, you have to decide if | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
you support the Government or the unions. Of course but we need to | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
make a big distinction between union militants and the vast | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
majority of millions of moderate trade union members, as many of | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
them at work in all kinds of organisations... We forget that the | :44:05. | :44:13. | |
numbers are there. Exactly. Your trade union advertises tax refunds. | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
There are something like 3 million union members with private health | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
insurance. 1 million trade union members went on strike. Actually | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
most trade union members of very moderate people. Yes, but this is | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
also a problem for Tories in the North. If they are going to build | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
relationships with trade-union in the North, then that what rebuild | :44:36. | :44:45. | |
issues with Conservative politics in the North. Yes, the miners' | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
strike is still one of the major barriers to a Tory break through in | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
the North. There is comfort is very interesting. But on public sector | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
pensions, it will polarise relationships between the Tory | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
party and the unions, I think. The Tory party will so that not many | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
people voted to strike, and they will raise the threshold. -- will | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
say that. There have always been Tories that recognise the value of | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
trade unions. We talk about hawks and doves within the Tory party. | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
Clearly we need to have a relationship and we need to | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
negotiate on pay terms and conditions. In many ways we want to | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
have partnerships. But that requires trust, confidence and | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
respect. And all the while you have got Tories saying that taxpayers | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
waste money on trade unions. We need a healthy relationship that | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
respect of that trade unions have a role to play for their members, | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
including those that fit for the Tory party and Labour, because that | :45:51. | :46:01. | |
:46:01. | :46:05. | ||
is what we are there to do. -- a At the end of the debate, the House | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
of Commons Commission decided to shelve the plan. Democracy in | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
action - At last! The MP behind the motion opposing the new charges was | :46:15. | :46:24. | |
Robert Helpmann. We will ask him Those who support the charges of | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
you that Big Ben is not part of our democracy, simply an adornment, a | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
luxury. I would say that this is patently not true. Big Ben is not | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
only the most recognisable British icon in the world, but also the | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
most recognisably parliamentary icon. We should not for a second | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
interfere with the rights of our constituents to come and see how | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
the democratic process works. That should be an absolute red line. I | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
know both sides of the House would not allow that to ever be | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
compromised. But I say to the house again, if we are to be taken | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
seriously, if we are to show to the public that we mean what we say | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
about the need for fiscal responsibility, sometimes that has | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
to begin at home. I visited the school recently in my constituency | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
and it was year three and you four. A teacher asked the pupils to | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
prepare questions for me and to draw pictures about what they | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
thought my job as an MP was. Almost every single picture contained Big | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
Ben. Almost all the pupils thought I worked in Big Ben. I believe that | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
this charge will carry on to schoolchildren. It is a curiosity. | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
It is something of interest to do. It is a delight and a pleasure. But | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
it is not at the heart of how we scrutinise the government or how we | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
serve our constituents. The country needs to make savings. A charge of | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
�15 on 9000 people a year who want to see a clockwork machine seems to | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
me not unreasonable. I have listened very carefully to this | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
debate. I have talked to those commissioners present. We have | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
agreed that were the Honourable Gentleman to accept the amendment I | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
have proposed, the commission would ensure there was no charge for the | :48:22. | :48:30. | |
clock tower during the course of As well as Robert Halfon, we are | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
joined by one of the MPs featured their. Thomas Docherty joins us | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
from Edinburgh. You must be very happy with the outcome. The yes, I | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
thought this action was completely wrong. Today, I met 15 kids from | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
the Prince's Trust and took them to the clock tower. They would have | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
had to pay �15 a head if I'd taken them there. But unaffordable at �15. | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
Would it have been affordable at a slightly lower level? I thought the | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
principle was wrong. I do not think people should be charged for going | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
round the House of Commons. We pay forehead already through our taxes. | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
You obviously disappointed. We are in a democracy, we saw that | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
yesterday. We have to move forward. What I thought was quite | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
astonishing about the debate was that some members, not Robert but | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
some of his colleagues, seemed to me quite introducing this charge on | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
less than 1% of those who visit the House of Commons, with some have | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
put in a shroud over Big Ben. The hard reality is we have to make | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
multi- million pounds savings. We didn't hear coherent alternatives | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
through some of the Roberts colleagues yesterday about how we | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
would do that. We will get to the coherent or incoherent alternatives, | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
whichever way you want to put it. But people have equated it with | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
saying this is the cradle of democracy so it should be free to | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
go into all parts of the building. Do you not see any link or logic in | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
that? I see a link. I don't think it's a compelling argument. As | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg said, he was not a natural bedfellow of myself on | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
these issues, this is not part of our democratic process. It is a | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
timepiece. A very famous timepiece that is part of the building. We | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
were talking about less than 1% of visitors. They visit the clock | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
tower. You worry family are at -- a family in four in your constituent | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
you would have to pay �60. Let's be clear on this one. If you went | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
across the road to Westminster Abbey, you pay �28 for an adult and | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
about �15 for a child. If you go to Buckingham Palace, where we | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
definitely pay for that, you have to pay for those things. The other | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
thing that is frustrating is the only people who get to sponsor the | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
towers of the MPs. This was quite bluntly a perk for some of our | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
colleagues. Not Robert, but some of his colleagues saw this as a perk. | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
In the Times we are living in, cuts have to be made. That seems like | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
quite a sensible one to make. You are still allowed to going to the | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
Houses of Parliament for free. Why not charge their than instead | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
bringing it in somewhere else? think it was an easy target to hit | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
the British public. I identified that �469,000 worth of savings | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
could be made. The Commons food bill, they could start by shutting | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
the dining rooms which aren't used on certain days. The Commons Spence | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
�65,000 a year on press cuttings. It could reduce that. We could | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
slightly cut the budget on overseas trips. If you added up, there's | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
loads of money that can be saved in other areas. But to hit the British | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
public and try to discourage people from seeing our ancient Icon... | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
many people go up? I don't know the full total but I've had 60 from my | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
own constituency and 15 in today. People love it. We pay forehead | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
already through our taxes. Although people do pay to see lots of other | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
icons. We'd just be putting it on a level playing field with all sorts | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
of other icons. This is different. It's our democracy and Parliament. | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
People should have a right to go round it until -- free of charge. | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
Would you like to see the debate reopened? I think we need to have a | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
much bigger debate. Robert is right to say we need to look at how we | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
spend money. I am delighted Robert will no longer be eating in the | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
House of Commons. I am delighted he is making that of a today. More | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
seriously, we have a proposal going into the commission in less than a | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
fortnight. It says if we can take �2 million of print savings by | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
giving MPs iPads and senior staff, that would be fantastic. That is | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
the kind of thing we need to be going forward. It is time to catch | :52:53. | :53:03. | |
:53:03. | :53:04. | ||
up with what has been happening in MP Eric Joyce was given a 12 month | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
community sentence, fined �3,000 and banned from going into a pub | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
for three months, after pleading guilty to four charges of assault. | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
David Cameron left the cares of domestic politics at home, by | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
jetting off to America. He enjoyed lavish hospitality and a trip on | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
Air Force One to a basketball match. Not to mention a hot dog and a can | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
of Coke. With the leader away, it was up to Nick Clegg and Harriet | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
Harman to take the reins at Prime Minister's Questions. Veteran | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
Labour MP Dennis Skinner was under no mood to give the PM stand in an | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
easy ride. I will give him a chance to separate him from the ranks of | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
Tories behind him. Come on! Miliband and Ed Balls set out more | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
details of Labour's economic policy. They say the coalition has actually | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
cut taxes for high earners. And the 140 id macro Archbishop of | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, announced he would stand down to | :54:00. | :54:10. | |
:54:10. | :54:12. | ||
As we've seen, David Cameron's visit to the US has been one of the | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
dominant stories of the week. But how does it play politically for Mr | :54:15. | :54:23. | |
Cameron, and will it do anything for Barack Obama's chance for re- | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
election? Has it done anything, has it been well covered in the States? | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
Our people thinking, hey, Iraq - Matt Barrett a bomber has been | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
cavorting with politicians and it will help him? It has been going | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
well. In terms of the significance of this, it's really focused on the | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
state to state relationship between the US and UK. That is what that is | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
it is all about and that's what the focus needs to be in a situation | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
like this. Do voters pay any attention in the States to this | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
sort of thing? People who are going to vote will pay attention to this | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
and any number of things. The state of Ohio, where the leaders visited | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
on Tuesday, my home town in fact. They went to watch basketball my | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
home town. I told my friends to make sure they mowed the lawn so! | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
David Cameron doesn't understand basketball. There were big signs of | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
saying, welcome, Prime Minister Cameron. He made a big fuss of | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
David Cameron. Even we were surprised by how lavish it all was. | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
What was the intention, apart from just being very hospitable? | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
intention is to solidify and re emphasised the special relationship | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
between the two countries. It's a relationship that is very old and | :55:41. | :55:48. | |
works very well, a common culture, common heritage. I think it was a | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
classic stitch-up. Barack Obama gets to inoculate himself against | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
the charge that republicans are going to throw Wetton, that he some | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
sort of left-wing radical. How can I be a left-wing radical Wenham | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
such good friends with an English Conservative, centre-right Prime | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
Minister. David Cameron gets to emphasise the stature gap of Ed | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
Miliband. Can you imagine him there? Always difficult for a | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
leader of the opposition in those circumstances. David Cameron get to | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
portray himself as someone who is above party. I am on the world | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
stage, I might be a Tory but I've got a good democrat friend here. | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
They both did it to do over their opponents and it worked brilliantly. | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
It's slightly more than that for Cameron. He is embarrassed by a lot | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
of the Tea Party wing of the Republicans. He didn't meet any of | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
them. Yes, he made a clear statement. Republicans, know. | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
think it David Cameron decided he was going to meet even the | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
Republican Speaker of the house, I don't think he would have got the | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
full on treatment that he did from the White House. He is pretty well | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
endorse, Barack Obama. You get the feeling David Cameron is banking on | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
the fact is going to get the second term. Let's roll the clock back in | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
terms of the comment about meeting the Speaker of the house. The US | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
political system, it's not the role of the House of Representatives or | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
the Senate to engage in international diplomacy. And our | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
constitution, that's the role of the President of the United States. | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
Giving some lavish entertainment to one of our most important allies in | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
the world is his job. That's what he does for a living and I think he | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
did it well. Although you wonder behind the scenes of the serious | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
talks on Afghanistan and Iran. Some jokes are saying, I've lavished all | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
this a new and we are pulling out of Afghanistan in the next six | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
months, you'd better do the same. I'm sure there are any number of | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
closed-door talks that we won't be pretty to, but everything we saw | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
was very positive. Rowan Williams stepping down, will David Cameron | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
be pleased? I think you'll be delighted. Replacement? Maybe the | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
Archbishop of York. I think the Archbishop of York. The were you | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
surprised? No, I've been for some time... It was said a few weeks ago | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
that Rowan Williams was about to go. A terms of picking an ally, is it a | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
dangerous position anyway? archbishop has to be his own man. | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
The politics of this will play out. The gay marriage thing is going to | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
be interesting. Whoever is the successor, it will put them in the | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
spotlight on that issue. They are going to press ahead with that? | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
think they are going to. They are completely relaxed about the | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
opposition of the Church. They will try and keep the debate respect for, | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
but I think they view this as a classic part of modernisation. | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
will be following every step of the way in this campaign. That is all | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
for today. The news is starting on BBC One now. Thank you to all of my | :58:41. | :58:46. |