Browse content similar to 15/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. There is more | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
pressure on Syria today, 200 aid and Human Rights Groups have called | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
on rish and China to support attempts by the United Nations to | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
end the violence in the country. The move marks one year since the | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
first protests against President Assad's regime Has the line been | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
crossed on police reform? An independent review calls for | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
performance related pay. Koonsultaition on gay marriage | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
begins today with the Government planning to introduce legislation | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
before the next general election. We will get reaction. And that is | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
one for the family album. Cameron and Obama are enjoying their photo | :01:17. | :01:25. | |
opportunities, but do they make any difference? All that coming up in | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
the next hour. With us the Green Party's Caroline Lucas. Welcome | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
back to the Daily Politics ch first this morning let us start with | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
Syria. Out of the headlines these days. Today's guardian has | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
published secret e-mails received and sent by the Syrian President, | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
and his British-born wife Asma. The cash of -- cache of e-mails were | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
intercepted by a rebel group in Syria and leaked to the Guardian. | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
In one of the E mailts between the couple, President Assad to his wife, | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
:02:11. | :02:12. | ||
mocks his own promised political reforms as the "Rubbish laws". His | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
wife received an e-mail from, this is interesting, Mayassa al-Thani, | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
she is the daughter of the Emir of Qatar, that is the Government | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
behind Al-Jazeera, and she offered them it seems the chance to leave | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
Syria, saying "I am sure you have many places to turn to, including | :02:31. | :02:38. | |
Doha," which is the capital of Qatar. Asma shows an obsession with | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
internet shopping including expensive shoes, and even a fondue | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
set. Every Dick Tay tr's wife should have one! And they all have | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
plenty of shoes, if I remember from the Philippines. The Guardian | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
reports that the e-mails show that President Assad has been advised by | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
Iran during the crisis. Again, no suprise there. Syria's closest ally | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
is Iran. With me now Michael levy who was Tony Blair's Middle East | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
envoy. Good to see you back. They are fascinating to see these kind | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
of e-mails. Anybody's e-mails but particularly those from a dictator | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
and his wife. But nothing in, I mean, they spend lots of money and | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
gifts, they are in cahoots with Iran, nothing suprising really. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
what I would call a smoking gun there. It is stuff we would have | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
expected. They live in their secluded castle, they are not in | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
touch with the real world, and it is really more of the same of what | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
one would have an tispailted and expect. Did you learn anything at | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
all, any significance on the Emir of Qatar's daughter almost saying | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
you can come here if things get rough. Not lail. They say one thing | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
in public, in privately these people are friends and have known | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
each other for years. You see, this current President, who was never | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
meant to be President, it was meant to be his older brother, he was | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
killed in a car crash, some people think in mysterious circumstances, | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
he has a younger brother who people think is the real hard line one, he | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
is head of the Republican Guard or whatever it is called in Syria, the | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
British Foreign Office gave this guy the benefit of the doubt. They | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
thought because he went to medical college, he had a lovely wife, he | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
is not an evil dig dictator like his father. The father as you say | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
was an evil dictator, I met him many times. I thought I had really | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
done a deal with him, between Syria, and Israel, the father went to that | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
meeting in Geneva with President Clinton, meeting got messed up. I | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
will never forget the words, now is the time to talk to the Israelis | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
without preconditions, the Americans couldn't believe it it. | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
The Secretary of State went there, the talks tarted. It looks like | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
there was an opportunity. But it didn't happen. The son came into | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
power. Young man, as you say educated here, was there a | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
opportunity for him to change what was going on in Syria? But again, | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
the imprint of the father, the imprint of the regime was just so | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
deep, and the tentacles with so clasping of the regime, that really | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
nothing happened. Was it worthwhile? -- courting him, | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
worthwhile seeing if he were for real? Yes I believe it was. I | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
believe we are now in a situation where the scenarios are all pretty | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
bad, but trying to work with him, what Kofi Annan is doing, trying to | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
deal with the Russians, and to get them, if not on side, to understand | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
their perspective, what is the alternative? To send our boys in, | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
to send a force in, probably without a UN Resolution. That is | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
not going to happen? Of course not. Another Afghanistan. Another Iraq, | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
this is diplomacy and getting your hands dirty diplomacy, that is what | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
this is about. In retrospect from what we know about the nature of | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
the regime in Damascus, if the young Assad had turned out to be | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
the westernised liberal reformer we were hoping he was, they would have | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
deposed him. Andrew, I remember going shopping with this guy. | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
younger Assad? The younger Assad. The old one never left Damascus. I | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
didn't look what he was buying, but we are in the so-called VIP lounge | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
in Serena airport. He was on the same plane as me. I had been there | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
officially with my guys from the Foreign Office. And we spent time. | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
We went round for about an hour together, and you know, you, as you | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
say the guy spoke perfect English, you would have thought a complete | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
gentleman, and then his father dies, he is now the dictator in Syria, | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
and behaving the way he is. You really, there are such different | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
sides to these people, they are one person when they are here, in | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
England being educated, marrying a girl from Ealing, father, a really, | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
very world respected medical man, and then they go back to where they | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
were brought up, surrounded by the people there, their father, their | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
regime, put into power. They are totally split personalities. It is | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
almost a Jekyll and Hyde situation. Beware the girl from Ealing, that | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
is the message in this foreign policy. I am sure her family | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
wouldn't want you to say that. don't think it is enough coverage, | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
we tend to see this as a battle between the rebel, the insurgent, | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
the people trying to break free from dictatorship and their | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
disparate group, they are united, suffering terrible casualties, and | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
this regime. His mate, the big friend, the person giving him every | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
possible help is Iran. He is their guy. He is their route to his | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
southern Lebanon and down into Hamas, this is, Iran cannot afford | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
to lose this regime. Correct. You are absolutely right. But Iran will | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
play the game the way they want it. If Hezbollah and Hamas move out of | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
Damascus, and move somewhere else. Like Lebanon. You bet they will | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
back them no matter where they will be. At the end of the day Iran will | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
take care of what Iran believes is going to be right for Iran. All of | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
these countries, ultimately play the game that way. OK. Caroline, | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
you, have you had a chance the glance at the e-mails. I had a | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
quick look. I saw the hand made furniture from Chelsea. You know, | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
as Lord Levy says it dedemonstrates because someone has a nice British | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
accent it doesn't mean they can't be evil. What comes over is that | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
contrast on the day when, you know, weapons are raining down on Homs, | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
he is sending a thing on his iPad with music from you know, a western | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
country singer from the US. Just, the parallel, the contrast of these | :09:43. | :09:51. | |
things happening at the same time is shocking. On one night Hitler | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
had a up meal. Interest stuff and I am sure more will come out in the | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
days ahead that will tell us more about this. Michael thank you for | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
joining us. Thank you very much. something a little more trivial. It | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
is time for the daily quiz. It seems at some point all Prime | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Ministers let slip what they like to listen to their iPod. The | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
question for today is what does David Cameron say he plays when he | :10:17. | :10:27. | |
:10:27. | :10:35. | ||
Caroline will give us the correct answer at the end of the show. | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
Lucky Caroline. Lucky lucky Caroline. Now, all police officers | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
should be made to take an annual fitness test. I must say that did | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
make me smile this morning, with a pay cut for those who fail. I hope | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
the BBC doesn't catch on with this! It is one of the recommendations | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
from Tom Winsor, he is the man the Home Secretary asked to look into | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
police pay. He has produced the second part of his report this | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
morning, but will the Government take on the police in this way? Jo? | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
There is a big battle, but Tom Winsor says there are unfairnesss, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
he has recommended an end to policing as a job for life. Saying | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
that Chief Constables should be able to make redundancies, he also | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
wants to introduce a system of performance related pay. Controv ly | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
he suggests pay cuts for those who fail fitness tests. Critics are | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
worried it will lead to more arrests, cash for collars. The | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
first part of the report published last year recommended a cut in | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
overtime pay designed to save about �150 million a year. Overall the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
police budget is being cut by 20% over four years in England and | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
Wales. It is estimated there will be a reduction over over 16,000 | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
police officers by 2015, compared to the number in 2010. Speaking | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
earlier today, let us listen to a bit of what Tom Winsor had to say. | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
Polices is becoming more complex. It is not the blue collar job of 30 | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
years ago or longer, it is a complex environment, and it | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
requires the most intellectually able people who have the other | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
qualities to be police officers, which are just as important. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
Courage, judgment, self control, the ability to assess situation and | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
deal with people. Are ven shall qualities. But raising the entrance | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
requirements will increase the average quality of police officers | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
in the future, to join the able people who are in the service today. | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
That was Tom Winsor who carried out the report. Joining me is Simon | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Reed from the Police Federation. Can we get a genre action as to | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
whether you welcome any of the proposals? These aren't reform, | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
this is another cut to the police budget, Mr Winsor took �300 million | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
in his fis report. He has grabbed nearly �2 billion on this occasion, | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
it has been predictable what he said, most of it has been said | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
before, and failed. We have looked at things like direct entry before | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
and it has been rejected. So, he has had a difficult time. A task to | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
cut the pay, he has cut the pay but it is not innovative, and it is | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
pretty blunt, and we are going back 30 years to where we won't be able | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
to recruit police or keep police. So that is what you say, so you | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
will resist the proposals. A few of them, let's us look at the raising | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
minimum standards, is that something you couldn't support. | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
average age of an officer is 27678 40pergs have degrees and they come | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
with maturity and values that we are looking for. That is who the | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
modern recruit to the police service is. They are good people. | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
Now, making the minimum recruitment for three A-levels is irrel vaant. | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
We are getting mature people, nearly half of whom have degrees, | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
what is wrong with that. What about the annual fitness test? Some | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
people might say I would have thought that would have been scheme, | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
with a reduction for thoz who fail. Shouldn't they be fit enough to do | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
the job? Most are fit enough to do the job. There is fitness testing | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
for firearms officers but the emphasis has and should be on | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
health. It shouldn't just be about how fast you can run. We should be | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
saying we want you to be healthy, the problem is, very few welfare | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
departments now are left in the police service, so the | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
infrastructure for what Mr Winsor is suggesting, doesn't currently | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
exist either. Right. I mean, you know, there are a lot of | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
recommendations and none of which you seem to be embracing, | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
increasing the pension age to 60, what do you say to that? Do you | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
want to see 60-year-old police officers? He is talking about | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
making them fit. There will be some 60-year-old officers who are fit. | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
But policing is a strenuous job. Can we expect people of that age to | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
be on the streets chasing 18-year- old offenders. I am joined by Keith | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
Vaz, Labour MP and by Mark Reckless, Conservative member of that | :15:16. | :15:24. | |
You have criticised the length of time needed to produce his report. | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Was it worth the wait? It is worth the wait in the sense it provides | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
us with information that will help us with the new landscape of | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
policing. I admire what the Government has done in terms of | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
wanting to radically changed the landscape of policing, it does need | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
change. The problem with this report is it has taken 18 months to | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
come out. We had Mr Winsor before our committee on his first report | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
on Tuesday. It is helpful but it is only part of the solution. There | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
are bits I like, there are bits I think will create problems. | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
idea of a fitter police force? long as they don't start | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
introducing fitness tests for MPs I don't have a problem! Have caught | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
it is important that police officers are fit. If you look | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
around the Palace of Westminster, there are people who are right for | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
the job. Things like performance- related pay, Andrew, does it mean | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
they have to rest a certain number of people during a day or a week? | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
If they don't, they get their pay docked or they get more pay? I was | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
hoping you would answer that! I ask the questions! What does it do? | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
That is what the public want. The day I first met the police officer, | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
they knocked on the door of my house and asked to see my father | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
and they informed my mother he had been killed in an accident and they | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
spent a huge amount of time with her. I was 14 years old. That time | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
is not going to be able to be spent. The public don't want officers on | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
the end of the phone. I can't answer your questions, you can't | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
answer your questions. Let's ask Mark. There is very little in the | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
way of performance bonuses we have seen in this new scheme. There | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
might be one element of �600 you get if you have particular skills. | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
We have seen the special priority payments have been done away with | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
and that has saved money for the police. Is that a good thing? | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
think so. As a member of a police authority, I initially supported | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
these but the more I saw of these, I thought it was divisive. Do you | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
think these reforms go far enough? I am very impressed with what I | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
have read so far of this very substantial and considered report. | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
It really is going to give us... You think the Government should | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
push ahead with this? Put it into effect? The principles of this are | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
very good. They will also help the police start recruiting again. If | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
you allow the police to bring in new officers, what that can mean | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
his most forces have hundreds if not thousands of people wanting to | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
join the police. They can bring in new people with some of the money | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
for that money saved. Something jumped out at me from the report. | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
They wanted a scheme allowing new recruits directly to enter the | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
police service at inspector rank. Is that the beginning of trying to | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
create an officer class? We need to look carefully at these proposals | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
and put them in the context of what the Government is doing. We all | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
want to see professional officers. This is a profession, one of the | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
most important and respected professions in the country. Of | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
course we have to look at these issues. It has not had an offer | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
could -- officer class like the army. Is it right? The manager of | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
the local Tesco has been successful a lot of product, but I'm against | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
him coming into the police force as Inspector. We need to study these | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
proposals carefully. Look at our profession as MPs. We have people | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
coming in from every single walk of life. There's nothing wrong with | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
that. You are nearly all professional politicians? Police 4 | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
x lawyer's... My case rests! need to be careful who these people | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
are. We need to look at the requirements. Do you want to see... | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
It's been a criticism and people are either for it or against it. | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
Some people's critique of the police have said it's never had a | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
proper officer class the way the army or the military has. That | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
might be the wrong analogy. strikes the right balance. It | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
doesn't go all the way to a separate officer class, but it | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
allows for accelerated promotion. He inspectorate will be open to | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
existing police officers as well as people from outside. You have that | :20:01. | :20:10. | |
at superintendent level. Crucially, we will open the police up at Chief | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
Constable level to people from Australia, the US, other people who | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
have experience, to bring in new ideas. I don't think there will be | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
a lot of new people, but the possibility of it has to be good. | :20:24. | :20:34. | |
Let me give you this... Politicians on the left and the right often say | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
the police needs more reform. Its real critics call it, along with | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
the prison services officers, the last unreformed public service. If | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
you listen to the Police Federation, they say we have seen a minimum 20% | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
cut to the police budget, a loss of 16,000 officers over the next four | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
years, 300 million removed from police pay, increased pension | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
contributions, a two-year public sector pay freeze, a cap of 1% | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
increase in years three and four. Let me encapsulate that. Enough is | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
enough. I'm in favour of reform, but what you have to do is carry | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
the police with you. What we have got is this stand-off which they | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
feel everything has been done which undermines them. What the Home | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
Secretary and Nick Herbert have to do is make sure they are part of | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
the solution. Bring them with the Government on these reforms. There | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
will be opposition. There is opposition! I do hope ministers | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
will push most of this through because I think it is the right | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
thing for the police force. What you have said in terms of those | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
reductions, those savings, that means that many more people can | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
stay on as police officers, we can recruit more officers. We also have | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
to look at the police staff and get them working together with the | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
police without these artificial divisions we've had in the past. | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
What are your thoughts, Caroline? The list of the cuts you just read | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
out is instructive because that is the backdrop for this and it is not | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
surprising that the police feel very under pressure and battered at | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
the moment and therefore somewhat suspicious of some of the | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
recommendations in the latest report. My concern around some of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
the work around direct entry is the Government says it wants the police | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
to be held in the same esteem as doctors and lawyers, so do why, but | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
in doctors and lawyers you would not have someone coming in at | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
direct entry level and do some operations on you. One would hope | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
not! It is a very strange way of trying to achieve the end they want. | :22:33. | :22:43. | |
:22:43. | :22:45. | ||
We will leave it there. Thank you. Gay marriage is back on the agenda | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
today with the Equalities Minister, Lynne Featherstone, launching a | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
consultation this morning. The Government say they want to | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
legislate to allow what they call "equal marriage," but although | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Conservative MPs have been told they're be allowed a free vote, | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
there is anger amongst some Tory backbenchers, not to mention many | :22:58. | :23:06. | |
in the church. Speaking this morning, Lynne Featherstone said: | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
It was very clear that there was a big inequality, the great | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
unhappiness with that particular barrier. Civil marriages, the | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
marriages offered by the state, were only available to opposite sex | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
couples. We have a law that doesn't discriminate. We believe that | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
people, same-sex people's love and commitment is exactly the same as | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
people from the opposite sex. As the Government, we feel we are duty | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
bound to offer the same facilities, if you like, to people regardless | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
of their gender. This is about love and wanting to be married. | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
With me now is the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesman, Tom Brake. | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
And Austin ivory from Catholic voices. Listening to the equalities | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
minister, what exactly is going to be gained in terms of any legal | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
advantage? There doesn't seem to be any difference in terms of | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
increased rights between gay marriage and civil partnerships. | :24:05. | :24:12. | |
marriage is different. That is why many people choose to get married. | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
That is why many gay people want to get married. I think there is a | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
difference. But there won't be any new rights. The rights you get with | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
the civil partnership will be the same for us if you are having a gay | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
marriage. They are different, qualitatively, but it is actually | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
about providing an opportunity for same-sex people to get married. I | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
really don't see the problem. supposed to be a consultation at | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
the moment, but it is not a consultation over whether it will | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
happen, because it is clear the Government has made up its mind, it | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
is how it will be implemented. is. All three party leaders are | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
committed to gay marriage. This is about how to do it and not whether | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
to do it. It was not in any manifesto. Not in the Conservative | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
or Lib Dem manifestoes. It is the commitment we have decided to make. | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
It is fair for the fair for a government come forward with | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
proposals there's demand for. Interestingly, recent polls suggest | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
over 60% of people think same-sex relationships are just as valid as | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
heterosexual ones and if that is the case, why can't same-sex people | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
get married? Her you argue there is a groundswell of opinion in favour | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
of this happening? The polls suggest people think heterosexual | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
and same-sex relationships are of equal value. There's been talk that | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
Tory backbenchers are happy, some of them. I don't have numbers and I | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
don't think it has been that vocal in terms of people who may be | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
unhappy about it. Is there going to be a free vote? Will that | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
categorically happen? 5 not sure whether there's going to be. I | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
suspect that already we he reports some people will be given some | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
flexibility in relation to this vote, but it's a clear commitment | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
from the Government, a very clear expression of support from David | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
Cameron that this is something the Government wants to do and I hope | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
Tory and Lib Dem members will want to support this unanimously. It | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
also has the support of the Labour Party. Would you like to see a free | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
vote on this issue? The Government have made it clear this is | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
something we intend daring and from a Lib Dem perspective, it is | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
something there is a policy commitment to. Their something I'm | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
baffled about. Lynne Featherstone has been at pains to stress that | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
this is no obligation on churches or religious organisations to hold | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
these ceremonies in a religious setting. Is it true that some | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
religious groups... Liberal Jews, for instance, or Quakers, would | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
like to hold a gay marriage in the synagogue but they can't? That's | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
correct. What we are consulting on his about civil marriage and | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
anything that the Government does would not actually legally allow | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
religious marriage to take place. That is why on a bit confused as to | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
why the Catholic Church, for instance, is as concerned as they | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
appear to be. Why is the Catholic Church so concerned? Because people | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
are concerned. This isn't just about the church. The polls show | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
70% of people believe the current definition of marriage should stay | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
the same. How does that square with the polls... The poll he was | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
referring to was referring to the quality of relationships and life. | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
People do respect homosexual love. When people asked about marriage, | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
most people believe that the have gunged an institution, man passed | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
woman. They wanted to stay that way. For duvet? That is maybe what | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
people understand it to be, but why can't that change? People don't | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
want it to change because they recognise it is a unique | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
institution with unique benefits. Not only is it an institution that | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
exists in societies, the building block of civil society. The state | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
exists to recognise and protect that marriage institution in the | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
same way the Church St defies it. The proposal here is not just to | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
allow a group -- the group of people to marry, it is to rearrange | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
the architecture of marriage. is civil marriage. It doesn't have | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
anything to do with judges for religions in that sense. You are | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
not being asked to preside over these ceremonies. There are not two | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
marriages in this country. There are two ways in to it, the civil | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
and religious. Parliament decided nearly 200 years ago what the | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
definition of marriage was. It is right that parliament should take | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
the decision in relation to equal marriage. This is about providing | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
it an opportunity for people who love each other to get married. I | :28:35. | :28:43. | |
can't see the problem. desperate to come in! This issue is | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
fundamental. It is about equality. That is why it seems odd to be | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
worrying so much about whether or not it is 70% or 60% in favour. It | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
is an issue about the qualities. We would not be having debate about | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
this about whether women should have the vote. If you place the | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
issue in that context of the qualities it is clear that the | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
Government is doing the right thing. I'm not sure we need a consultation, | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
I would like to see them just do it. It was in no manifesto. Suddenly we | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
have this consultation paper being launched. This has been thrust upon | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
people. You say it is about equality. There is no legal right | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
gained by this. Equality and equivalents are not the same thing. | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
If we were to open pensions to the under 65, that would be to overcome | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
discrimination but it would also destroy pensions. What shocks me | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
about this debate is that senior Catholic church leaders have | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
described the proposals -- proposals as grotesque. I find that | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
shocking. We're talking about allowing people who love each other | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
to get married. Why is that grotesque? Had you feel about being | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
accused of inflaming homophobia? That his inflammatory to say to the | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
church that they are homophobic when the church is expressing the | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
:30:12. | :30:13. | ||
majority view of civil society. We want to welcome folks from | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
Scotland who are watching now. They have been watching First Minister's | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
Question, gay marriage was also on the agenda there. That is what we | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
are talking about here in London as well, about the Government's | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
changes here in Westminster for gay marriage. We hope in a few minutes | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
to be joined by indeed I have been told he may be there now BBC | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
Scotland's political editor Brian Taylor. Great to see you. What are | :30:40. | :30:49. | |
they saying about gay marriage in the land of the brave? We have a | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
picture of Brian. But clearly, they have nothing to say at all. Where | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
do we go from here? We have a consultation, this consultation is | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
about how to implement these rights, and what I think will, the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
Government will make very clear, is this is not about religious | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
marriage, this is about civil marriage. When I got married in a | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
civil marriage, that was a commitment to my wife, I didn't, we | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
didn't emback, on something with the intent purpose of having | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
children, so to suggest marriage is simply about procreation. It is not | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
true. I didn't suggest that. think we have sound with Brian | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
Taylor now. Brian. Good to see you. Thank you for joining u we are | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
talking about gay marriage down here, tell us what the situation, | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
the debate is in Scotland? I would be interested, because it has been | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
said although in economic terms Scotland is more radical than | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
England, in social terms, Scotland is often a more Conservative | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
country, where are we? It is often thought to be that, if you recall | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
the debate early on the business of clause 13, really, I think on the | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
promotion of homosexuality in school, it was a very huge emotive | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
edebate and the change wend ahead. At this point in Scotland there is | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
a consultation issued, responses to that closed at the end of last year, | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
and the Scottish Government say they Alex Salmond was asked about | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
it, say they are considering the response, they got 50,000 response, | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
very large indeed. The indication previously had been the Scottish | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
Government would give the verdict in the spring. I think the spring | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
in Scotland maybe extended a bit perhaps towards May or June. | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
Ministers, Alex Salmond has said in the past he is in favour of the | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
equality issue going ahead, in favour there by of gay marriage. He | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
said in response to prompting from the leader of the Liberal Democrats | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
who said stand against the serious forces, the church and others, | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
arguing against this change, Mr Samed said it was right to take | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
account of the consultation, and he urged those who were demanding that | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
he stick to his path, that they shouldn't use inflammatory language. | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
He said it was the wrong thing the debate required. Thank you for that | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
Brian. An extended spring in Scotland? Brian is predicting that | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
there. It is the nicest time of the year in Scotland, I hope it is | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
extended. Thank you to our guests. Let us move on to something equally | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
controversial. Who would be a banker? It seems not a day goes by | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
wouldn't these poor misunderstood souls being attacked in the press | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
for the sides of their bonuss or salaries or both. Is all this | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
banker bashing justified or is it is a distraction from the real | :33:39. | :33:49. | |
:33:49. | :33:55. | ||
issues facing the economy? # Life the rich | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
# And rich is nice # But all things come at a price # | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
The very fact that a group of actors can put on in the West End, | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
and expect the public to come and watch a play called Toxic Bankers | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
demonstrates how disliked these people are. Do they really deserve | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
it? Should we give them a break? have gone too far. We are saying | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
that finance is useless, it is parasitic, they shouldn't exist or | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
it shouldn't exist in the UK. That is totally misguided and economic | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
suicide for the UK. Even bankers admit that to lift to cloud of | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
suspicion from them, a deal M&S now be done that ensures banks stay | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
afloat and never rely on us for bail ought. But their pay is so | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
high. Isn't it? # The avaricious values sh | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
# On which our lives are built # Mean in this time of crisis | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
# We have to share the guilt # The official data shows about a | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
third of 50 pence taxpayers work in the financial sector. So they will | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
be people who work in industry, actor, doctors, all sorts of | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
profession like that, so it is wrong to think the only place where | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
there is very large salaries is finance, that is not the case. This | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
musical doesn't include the song brother can you spare a dime? Isn't | :35:26. | :35:35. | |
that the crux of our anger? They won't lend to anyone any more. | :35:35. | :35:43. | |
# Smash the system # Trash the bankers # | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
What happened here is that the Government have stepped in and | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
massively changed regulations governing lending. They are forcing | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
banks to lend less, telling them to lend at a more expensive rate by | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
forcing them to hold more capital. Many of these reforms make sense, | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
because they ensure the banking system is more prudent and there is | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
more, greater reserves in case something goes wrong, but the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
consequence of that is always higher lending costs, and reduced | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
lending. OK, that is all very clever, but they started this | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
crisis. # Who's to blame? # | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
As everyone is aware we were happy to take the mortgage, credit cards | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
when they were available, although there are important questions to be | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
asked about bankers, perhaps we are all a bit to blame. In a way we | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
probably could have called the show Toxic Bankers? After seeing that we | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
could have the singing Daily Politics. Joining me is Mark | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
Littlewood. Let me bowl you a fast one right away. Bob Diamond picked | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
up �28 million last year, justify that. It is not for me to justify | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
it. It for the shareholders to justify. The last thing we need | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
which is the danger we are moving into is having politicians debating | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
this. We almost had the near farce of Steven Hester's salary being | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
debated on the floor of the House. But politicians are going to debate | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
it? I think what we still have is this back wash still, a fury about | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
the abilities, that there is this feeling if the taxpayers leap to | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
your aid if you go bust, you can't have this heads I win, details you | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
bail me out. If we can move, which I think we are taking steps towards, | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
that if Barclays goes down it is wound up rather than bailed out. It | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
is up to Barclay what is they are paid. They have to makes the | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
judgment, not politicians. Well, there are issues of fairns here, | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
and it goes wider than the banks. I can see that Bob Diamond is kind of | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
at the upper echelons of this. If you look at the, the directors of | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
leading British firm, this is not just bankers but all firm, they saw | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
their earnings in the last financial year rise by 49%. And yet | :38:07. | :38:16. | |
average pay, in the private sector rose by 2.6%. Why it is fair for | :38:16. | :38:23. | |
the bosses to get 49%, and the ordinary workers to get 2.6%? | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
averages cover a very wide range of different areas. There was one boss | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
I think that goes into that figure whose salary went up 400%. But his | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
company performed fantasticically. They are getting big erase, we are | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
told in the information age that a company runs on its brain, that the | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
quality and productivity and brainpower of the work force. | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
the guy at the top. Why the discrepancy. You need to go through | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
company by company, but the guy at the top is very important, | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
sometimes people make in, I think, wrong suggestion that if the share | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
price fall the boss must be doing a bad job. Sometimes that is not true. | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Sometimes the hardst job is to stabilise a fail ing company. | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
you telling me that Bob dime would work only half as hard if we paid | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
him �14 million. It is not a question of us paying him. We all | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
have insurance policies, the money is, in a sense, I mean let me not | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
take a populist line on this, let me do it another way. This is theft | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
from the shareholders. This is money that belongs to the | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
shareholders that senior management are pinching. Not pinching it. You | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
have to decide, there has to be a process to decide what the is | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
correct remuen Asian, would be 20 be OK, they have to have a process | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
in place, that determines what they think he is worth, it is not qeef | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
him working... You know as well as I do, shareholders do not determine | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
these salaries. They don't. That is a fiction. It is remuen nation | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
committees that determine them. Not always, often, I am on your | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
committee if you sit on mine and we will both get �28 million. I think | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
there is a case for greater shareholder activism, but we can't. | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
It would be disastrous if we got into a cycle that any ort of | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
substantial salary in the tns shall services is pinching or stealing, | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
it isn't. I wanted to sign you up, I thought you were doing a really | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
good job. I am cheaper than �28 million. You are right of the | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
limitations for shareholders to hold chief executive to account. | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
Some of the shares are held for microseconds before they get passed | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
on. Many are held by others in other countries and others have | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
vested interested. So that is not going to work. I think particularly | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
now, at a time when we are supposed to be in this together. Where have | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
I heard that? It is corrosive for people to say their own salaries | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
going down, at the same time as you say, these bankers and many others | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
are getting high pay outs. There is one way you could say these guys | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
are getting really big salaries and they are nearly all guys. They are | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
getting big salaries. We don't think they are worth it but in the | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
end of the day the consequences of Government trying to intervene in | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
the private sector and saying you are worth that, that is never going | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
to work in the end. Let us take the view Bob Diamond is getting 28 | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
million, we the taxpayer will get 14 million of that and so we are | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
quids in. That is what I would suggest, that rather than having | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
politicians try and work out what the figure should be, let us have a | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
50% tax and a permanent tax on bonuses, that would be a simple way | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
of doing it. You could look at issues of the differential between | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
company, putting the highest paid and lowest paid. That concentrates | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
mind. If people want to get higher they would have to bring up the | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
lowest paid. There was a documentary on the BBC last night, | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
not mine, from America, they talked in the 1950s the differential | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
tweenk between the chief executive of the General Motors and the | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
average worker was 40-1. Today it is 550-1. That is a huge difference. | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
Any way I have run out of hard balls so you can put your bat down | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
and go back to the tea room. Always good to be bowled out by you Andrew. | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
David Cameron and Barack Obama have promised to review the rules on | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
extradition following a series of high profile case, the current ex | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
pra dition treaty between Britain and America was signed in 2003. | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
Complaints were raised over the case of the NatWest Three who were | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
extradited to America, and convicted of fraud connected to the | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
Enron scandal. Then there was Gary McKinnon whon has been accused of | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
hacking NASA and Pentagon computers. Concern has been raised by the case | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
of Christopher Tappin, the businessman who is awaiting trial | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
in America on charges of illegally exporting goods to Iran. Last month | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
David Cameron said that Mr Tappin's case raised the need for a | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
thoughtful review of the process. His son Neil told the Daily | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
Politics he felt his father's treatment had been unfair. He has | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
never once had the opportunity to show any of the evidence on his | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
side of the argument, so in the hear information this country, the | :43:35. | :43:42. | |
US put across their side of the story, and then our lawyers had to | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
argue a few technical points which were pointless, so he goes out | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
there, he is in a cell on his own, no contact with us, 5,000 miles | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
away from home. It feels to us and if his presumption ofness has been | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
lost. That that is Neil Tappin talking about his faer. Let us get | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
more from Dominic Raab. What can be done? Is this not just window | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
dressing? We have had a review, we have had the baker review, he was | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
very clear, he said the treaty was not one sided. It doesn't operate | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
in an unbalanced manner. Apart from tweaking nothing is going to change | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
I would dispute that on the facts. The ratio of citizens between the | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
US and UK is something like five to one. It is in practise lopsided. | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
The point Baker made is that the legal tests, the evidential tests | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
are broadly similar, that is true, I think more or less but the key | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
thing is the way judges look at the evidence in the US, and they don't | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
do that here. The other critical think thing, I think that is what | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
is being trailed is this idea of a forum test, when you cross border | :44:53. | :45:00. | |
cases what this means is they could be tried here if it's a crime here. | :45:00. | :45:07. | |
Do you dispute what Scott Baker has done. His conclusions are clear, it | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
doesn't leave room for manoeuvre for David Cameron to look at this | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
again. I disagree. We have had review, there is a problem with the | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
Baker review, four months on we don't have any of the evidence it | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
received. That cast a shadow over the credibility of the report. | :45:22. | :45:29. | |
it going to be published? I am calling for it to be published. | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
that because you are worried it wasn't as independent as it said on | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
the tin? I am no doubt about the propriety of Scott Baker but the | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
evidence was shifted over the Home Office. It is extraordinary to have | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
an independent review and you don't have the evidence published so | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
people can see why people came ep to these conclusions. There is a | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
case of baba Ahmed who has been in prison without charge and the US | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
wants to extradite him. He hasn't been. This is a case that you | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
brought, shouldn't he be extradited. No, he is a UK citizen. The crimes | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
which he is alleged to have committed are supposed to have | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
happened in the UK. We should be trying that in this country. He is | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
under severe accusation and it is right there should be a trial. He | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
wants a trial. U but it should be in the UK where the crimes are | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
alleged to have occurred. Where someone hasn't been extradite, we | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
are seeing the example where people feel they have been handed over too | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
easily and quickly. The whole thing is a mess. Whatever you think it | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
can't be right to hold someone for years as a matter of principle that | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
can't be right. I think David Cameron is brave taking this on. He | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
is addressing the matter with the President, something that Tony | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
Blair was scared to do, with all those accusations of being a poodle. | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
It is important he addresses this. There is an expectation that | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
something will happen. The House of Commons voted for reform, not just | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
of the US arrangement but the European arrest warrant. | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
officials are looking at how this treaty is working, are you | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
optimistic is going to change. Something is, you have heard the | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
Prime Minister and the President saying they are going to examine it | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
and that has to be good news. Greens achieved the dream of any | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
small party, they got a seat in the Commons. Caroline Lucas won | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
Brighton Pavillion. He is a lone voice and there is a limit to what | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
one MP can do. Has it allowed The Greens to shine. We sent David | :47:35. | :47:45. | |
:47:45. | :47:45. | ||
Thompson up the property ladder to This might be the most eco-friendly | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
house in Britain and if the greens were in power, they would probably | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
like us all to live in a place like this. But they do have one foot on | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
the Westminster property ladder. The Green Party now have a seat at | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
the top table of British politics and it has always been seen as a | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
triumph to have a green voice on the green benches, but actually, as | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
having an MP made a blind bit of difference? It has been an article | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
of faith that getting an MP in Parliament would be the be-all and | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
end-all for a small minority party. We now know that is not the case. | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
It is massively important and the role Caroline has is important, but | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
the success of green ideas does not depend on having one MP in | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
Parliament. There are some who describe themselves as turquoise | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
Tories, True Blues but a bit green who are frankly fairly caustic | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
about the impact Caroline Lucas has made. I'm not sure I'm finding | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
having a green member of parliament as creative as I thought it might | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
be, for creating as much attention as I was expecting. I would say | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
good on the publicity, but maybe a bit light on policy. Apart from | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
Caroline in Westminster, the Greens have two MSPs in Scotland, and 133 | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
councillors in England and Wales and they control one council, | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
Brighton and Hove. They have to make gains in local government, but | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
think it is too early to say what will happen in Westminster. But | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
even their friends are doubtful whether Caroline will have to budge | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
up any time soon. It is difficult to make the sunshine there -- a | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
function that having one Green MP in Parliament, however good, it | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
leads automatically to the election of a lot of green MPs. That doesn't | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
mean sitting in splendid isolation in the Palace of Westminster is a | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
waste of time. Organisations like Age UK and Kucker look at most MPs | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
in vain. The debate on nuclear power, where all the major parties | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
have given up on finding alternatives to nuclear power, the | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
Green Party can do that. There's a very important role of bringing | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
these radical and ideas into the heart of the system that seems | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
locked into this very cruel politics of austerity without any | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
imagination about how a better world might be created. Or maybe it | :50:06. | :50:13. | |
is. As a single issue parliamentarian, there's a huge | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
opportunity. I'm not sure she has taken that opportunity and I am not | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
sure the green message is coming through as strongly. Her platform, | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
as it is from the coalition's platform, she is responding to our | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
policies, not the other way. Harsh words but that's life in | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
Westminster. Will that ever really be the ideal home for the Green | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
Party? Caroline is still with us. I didn't | :50:42. | :50:49. | |
run away! I don't blame me. It was obviously going to be difficult | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
because you're one of over 600 and you what a woman in what is still a | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
kind of men's club, despite the increase in women. Has it been more | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
difficult than you thought or have you been able to make more of an | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
impact than you had? It depends how you measure impact. In terms of | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
getting key issues on the political agenda that otherwise would not | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
have been there, we can say I've been successful. Example? | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
nuclear power. The Liberals are meekly following the Conservatives | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
and they have given up their opposition to nuclear power. The | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
majority of people are opposed. Where is the voice and the Commons? | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
If you look at the social issue, the NHS, who first started to push | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
commercialisation in the NHS? Labour. The Lib Dems are following | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
the Tories through the lobbies. Who is standing up for real public | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
health service? The greens. Afghanistan, I've put down the | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
amendment in a debate on Afghanistan calling for troops to | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
be withdrawn. That did not come from any other party. If you're | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
measuring it by putting issues on the grander, we are doing it. If | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
you are asking if I can outvote 649 others... I can't. I wonder if the | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
Times have been propitious for you. There are two ways in which Green | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
issues have been put on the back- burner. One is the economic Times, | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
which are quite grim and people are more worried about putting bread on | :52:17. | :52:24. | |
the table, and the global warming issue, rightly or wrongly, has been | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
put on the back foot as well. The public are more sceptical than they | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
were. Let me take the first one around whether or not there's a | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
contradiction between trying to get the economy back on track and | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
promoting investment in green technologies. My role is unique. | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
I'm the only one saying there doesn't have to be a division | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
between these things, precisely by investing in energy efficiency and | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
renewables. They would have vastly good economic effects as well as | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
good environmental effects. I was able to help instigate an inquiry | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
into the green economy to make sure those arguments were heard by a | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
cross-party committee of MPs and hopefully then to go forward to | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
make recommendations for the Government. Since getting elected, | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
we have been a strong green voice in Parliament. Membership of the | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
Green Party has doubled. We have our first council in Brighton and | :53:15. | :53:24. | |
Hove. Success in your grasp! What more can I say? | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
All those pictures we've seen on the news and in the papers of David | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
Cameron and Barack Obama schmoozing must be the stuff spin doctors | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
dream of. But just how important are these photo opportunities and | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
what happens when they don't go according to plan? In a moment, | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
I'll be speaking to one of Tony Blair's former spin doctors as well | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
as the Sun's former political editor, but first, here's a look | :53:43. | :53:52. | |
:53:53. | :53:53. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds | :53:53. | :54:51. | |
There was a great end! Well, former Labour spin doctor | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
Lance Price and George Pascow Watson, who's now at the PR firm | :54:54. | :55:02. | |
Portland, are with us now. Do they work or of a very risky? They are | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
slightly risky, but in the name, particularly with someone like | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
David Cameron, who is a natural performer, they are fantastic. A | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
great set of pictures can tell a fantastic story and they also give | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
a politician the chance to shine as a normal human being away from | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
Westminster. I presume that is what they are for, to show they are | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
human. We know they are. But to show them in normal surroundings. | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
But that clip of Tony Blair on the Tube, he looked really awkward, I | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
thought. I have to put my hand on your heart -- my heart. I was Byley | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
responsible. The idea was to make him look as if he understood the | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
concerns of normal people. Travelling on public transport. But | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
it is not true. You can only do it if it is true. It has to look right. | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
When we put him on the Tube or when we encouraged him to travel by | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
Ryanair on holiday one time because there were too many stories about | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
his fancy holidays, those sorts of photo opportunities go horribly | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
wrong. When you look at pictures between American President's and | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
British prime ministers, there's a feeling sometimes that you see that | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
unequal relationship, however good the photo opportunity, they look as | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
if they are the underling, if you like, to the American President. Is | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
that something you can't overcome in a photo? I'm not sure it's too | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
much of a problem. There will always be a sense that America is a | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
bigger animal than Britain. People don't have the time that people who | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
watched this show normally get to tune into politics. It is quite a | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
boring and difficult subject for a lot of people. Sometimes big | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
pictures like this are the way they get their perceptions and that is | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
really important for politicians. It is also important to point out | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
that what we've seen in this footage is a little bit. We haven't | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
seen the private stuff. The prime minister had 80 minutes on Air | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
Force One, one-on-one with the President. We don't see that sort | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
of picture. It is important to give the picture of security, economic | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
lakes and the fact we are being taken seriously. It doesn't change | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
anyone's vote. I doubt it. You have to provide pictures for television. | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
You guys need pictures. If you have a big event on the health service, | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
for example, you will see another picture of David Cameron listening | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
to nurses or Nick Clegg nodding his head sagely in the background, | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
making it look like they are engaging. It is all a bit | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
artificial. The real work goes on behind closed doors in really | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
serious discussions and the prime ministers and party leaders get a | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
bit fed up with these photo- opportunities. How much time do you | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
spend on thinking about the photo opportunity? Whoever came up of | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
that idea of Ed Balls and Andy Burnham swinging on those swings. | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
There are people like me who think about these things all the time and | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
it is not that easy. You get a brief that says make the prime | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
minister look more human. You scratch your head. Half the time it | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
doesn't work. Half the time it is counter-productive because prime | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
ministers are not like the rest of us. Thank you for joining us. | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
Time to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: What does | :58:20. | :58:29. | |
David Cameron say he plays when he needs a lift? Do you know the | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
answer? I can remind you... I was going to go for the last one but I | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
can't remember. That was Champagne supernova by Oasis. Do you know? | :58:39. | :58:46. | |
have drawn a blank. Thin Lizzie's Whiskey In The Jar. | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
Andrew will sing it! You get to pick the winner. I was amazed that | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
the President was allowed to use Air Force One to go to the | :58:53. | :59:00. | |
basketball game. This is this the year winner. This is not the winner | :59:00. | :59:08. | |
of that competition. This is yesterday's competition. The answer | :59:08. | :59:12. |