15/03/2012 Daily Politics


15/03/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas. Topics for discussion include gay marriage, police pay and when does a photo op become a photo flop?


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LineFromTo

Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. There is more

:00:39.:00:43.

pressure on Syria today, 200 aid and Human Rights Groups have called

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on rish and China to support attempts by the United Nations to

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end the violence in the country. The move marks one year since the

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first protests against President Assad's regime Has the line been

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crossed on police reform? An independent review calls for

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performance related pay. Koonsultaition on gay marriage

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begins today with the Government planning to introduce legislation

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before the next general election. We will get reaction. And that is

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one for the family album. Cameron and Obama are enjoying their photo

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opportunities, but do they make any difference? All that coming up in

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the next hour. With us the Green Party's Caroline Lucas. Welcome

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back to the Daily Politics ch first this morning let us start with

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Syria. Out of the headlines these days. Today's guardian has

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published secret e-mails received and sent by the Syrian President,

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and his British-born wife Asma. The cash of -- cache of e-mails were

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intercepted by a rebel group in Syria and leaked to the Guardian.

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In one of the E mailts between the couple, President Assad to his wife,

:02:01.:02:11.
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mocks his own promised political reforms as the "Rubbish laws". His

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wife received an e-mail from, this is interesting, Mayassa al-Thani,

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she is the daughter of the Emir of Qatar, that is the Government

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behind Al-Jazeera, and she offered them it seems the chance to leave

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Syria, saying "I am sure you have many places to turn to, including

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Doha," which is the capital of Qatar. Asma shows an obsession with

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internet shopping including expensive shoes, and even a fondue

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set. Every Dick Tay tr's wife should have one! And they all have

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plenty of shoes, if I remember from the Philippines. The Guardian

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reports that the e-mails show that President Assad has been advised by

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Iran during the crisis. Again, no suprise there. Syria's closest ally

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is Iran. With me now Michael levy who was Tony Blair's Middle East

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envoy. Good to see you back. They are fascinating to see these kind

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of e-mails. Anybody's e-mails but particularly those from a dictator

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and his wife. But nothing in, I mean, they spend lots of money and

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gifts, they are in cahoots with Iran, nothing suprising really.

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what I would call a smoking gun there. It is stuff we would have

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expected. They live in their secluded castle, they are not in

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touch with the real world, and it is really more of the same of what

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one would have an tispailted and expect. Did you learn anything at

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all, any significance on the Emir of Qatar's daughter almost saying

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you can come here if things get rough. Not lail. They say one thing

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in public, in privately these people are friends and have known

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each other for years. You see, this current President, who was never

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meant to be President, it was meant to be his older brother, he was

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killed in a car crash, some people think in mysterious circumstances,

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he has a younger brother who people think is the real hard line one, he

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is head of the Republican Guard or whatever it is called in Syria, the

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British Foreign Office gave this guy the benefit of the doubt. They

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thought because he went to medical college, he had a lovely wife, he

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is not an evil dig dictator like his father. The father as you say

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was an evil dictator, I met him many times. I thought I had really

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done a deal with him, between Syria, and Israel, the father went to that

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meeting in Geneva with President Clinton, meeting got messed up. I

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will never forget the words, now is the time to talk to the Israelis

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without preconditions, the Americans couldn't believe it it.

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The Secretary of State went there, the talks tarted. It looks like

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there was an opportunity. But it didn't happen. The son came into

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power. Young man, as you say educated here, was there a

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opportunity for him to change what was going on in Syria? But again,

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the imprint of the father, the imprint of the regime was just so

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deep, and the tentacles with so clasping of the regime, that really

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nothing happened. Was it worthwhile? -- courting him,

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worthwhile seeing if he were for real? Yes I believe it was. I

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believe we are now in a situation where the scenarios are all pretty

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bad, but trying to work with him, what Kofi Annan is doing, trying to

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deal with the Russians, and to get them, if not on side, to understand

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their perspective, what is the alternative? To send our boys in,

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to send a force in, probably without a UN Resolution. That is

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not going to happen? Of course not. Another Afghanistan. Another Iraq,

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this is diplomacy and getting your hands dirty diplomacy, that is what

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this is about. In retrospect from what we know about the nature of

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the regime in Damascus, if the young Assad had turned out to be

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the westernised liberal reformer we were hoping he was, they would have

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deposed him. Andrew, I remember going shopping with this guy.

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younger Assad? The younger Assad. The old one never left Damascus. I

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didn't look what he was buying, but we are in the so-called VIP lounge

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in Serena airport. He was on the same plane as me. I had been there

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officially with my guys from the Foreign Office. And we spent time.

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We went round for about an hour together, and you know, you, as you

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say the guy spoke perfect English, you would have thought a complete

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gentleman, and then his father dies, he is now the dictator in Syria,

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and behaving the way he is. You really, there are such different

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sides to these people, they are one person when they are here, in

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England being educated, marrying a girl from Ealing, father, a really,

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very world respected medical man, and then they go back to where they

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were brought up, surrounded by the people there, their father, their

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regime, put into power. They are totally split personalities. It is

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almost a Jekyll and Hyde situation. Beware the girl from Ealing, that

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is the message in this foreign policy. I am sure her family

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wouldn't want you to say that. don't think it is enough coverage,

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we tend to see this as a battle between the rebel, the insurgent,

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the people trying to break free from dictatorship and their

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disparate group, they are united, suffering terrible casualties, and

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this regime. His mate, the big friend, the person giving him every

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possible help is Iran. He is their guy. He is their route to his

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southern Lebanon and down into Hamas, this is, Iran cannot afford

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to lose this regime. Correct. You are absolutely right. But Iran will

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play the game the way they want it. If Hezbollah and Hamas move out of

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Damascus, and move somewhere else. Like Lebanon. You bet they will

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back them no matter where they will be. At the end of the day Iran will

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take care of what Iran believes is going to be right for Iran. All of

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these countries, ultimately play the game that way. OK. Caroline,

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you, have you had a chance the glance at the e-mails. I had a

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quick look. I saw the hand made furniture from Chelsea. You know,

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as Lord Levy says it dedemonstrates because someone has a nice British

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accent it doesn't mean they can't be evil. What comes over is that

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contrast on the day when, you know, weapons are raining down on Homs,

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he is sending a thing on his iPad with music from you know, a western

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country singer from the US. Just, the parallel, the contrast of these

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things happening at the same time is shocking. On one night Hitler

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had a up meal. Interest stuff and I am sure more will come out in the

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days ahead that will tell us more about this. Michael thank you for

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joining us. Thank you very much. something a little more trivial. It

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is time for the daily quiz. It seems at some point all Prime

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Ministers let slip what they like to listen to their iPod. The

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question for today is what does David Cameron say he plays when he

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:10:27.:10:35.

Caroline will give us the correct answer at the end of the show.

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Lucky Caroline. Lucky lucky Caroline. Now, all police officers

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should be made to take an annual fitness test. I must say that did

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make me smile this morning, with a pay cut for those who fail. I hope

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the BBC doesn't catch on with this! It is one of the recommendations

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from Tom Winsor, he is the man the Home Secretary asked to look into

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police pay. He has produced the second part of his report this

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morning, but will the Government take on the police in this way? Jo?

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There is a big battle, but Tom Winsor says there are unfairnesss,

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he has recommended an end to policing as a job for life. Saying

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that Chief Constables should be able to make redundancies, he also

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wants to introduce a system of performance related pay. Controv ly

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he suggests pay cuts for those who fail fitness tests. Critics are

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worried it will lead to more arrests, cash for collars. The

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first part of the report published last year recommended a cut in

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overtime pay designed to save about �150 million a year. Overall the

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police budget is being cut by 20% over four years in England and

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Wales. It is estimated there will be a reduction over over 16,000

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police officers by 2015, compared to the number in 2010. Speaking

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earlier today, let us listen to a bit of what Tom Winsor had to say.

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Polices is becoming more complex. It is not the blue collar job of 30

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years ago or longer, it is a complex environment, and it

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requires the most intellectually able people who have the other

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qualities to be police officers, which are just as important.

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Courage, judgment, self control, the ability to assess situation and

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deal with people. Are ven shall qualities. But raising the entrance

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requirements will increase the average quality of police officers

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in the future, to join the able people who are in the service today.

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That was Tom Winsor who carried out the report. Joining me is Simon

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Reed from the Police Federation. Can we get a genre action as to

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whether you welcome any of the proposals? These aren't reform,

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this is another cut to the police budget, Mr Winsor took �300 million

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in his fis report. He has grabbed nearly �2 billion on this occasion,

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it has been predictable what he said, most of it has been said

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before, and failed. We have looked at things like direct entry before

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and it has been rejected. So, he has had a difficult time. A task to

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cut the pay, he has cut the pay but it is not innovative, and it is

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pretty blunt, and we are going back 30 years to where we won't be able

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to recruit police or keep police. So that is what you say, so you

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will resist the proposals. A few of them, let's us look at the raising

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minimum standards, is that something you couldn't support.

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average age of an officer is 27678 40pergs have degrees and they come

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with maturity and values that we are looking for. That is who the

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modern recruit to the police service is. They are good people.

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Now, making the minimum recruitment for three A-levels is irrel vaant.

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We are getting mature people, nearly half of whom have degrees,

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what is wrong with that. What about the annual fitness test? Some

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people might say I would have thought that would have been scheme,

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with a reduction for thoz who fail. Shouldn't they be fit enough to do

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the job? Most are fit enough to do the job. There is fitness testing

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for firearms officers but the emphasis has and should be on

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health. It shouldn't just be about how fast you can run. We should be

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saying we want you to be healthy, the problem is, very few welfare

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departments now are left in the police service, so the

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infrastructure for what Mr Winsor is suggesting, doesn't currently

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exist either. Right. I mean, you know, there are a lot of

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recommendations and none of which you seem to be embracing,

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increasing the pension age to 60, what do you say to that? Do you

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want to see 60-year-old police officers? He is talking about

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making them fit. There will be some 60-year-old officers who are fit.

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But policing is a strenuous job. Can we expect people of that age to

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be on the streets chasing 18-year- old offenders. I am joined by Keith

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Vaz, Labour MP and by Mark Reckless, Conservative member of that

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You have criticised the length of time needed to produce his report.

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Was it worth the wait? It is worth the wait in the sense it provides

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us with information that will help us with the new landscape of

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policing. I admire what the Government has done in terms of

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wanting to radically changed the landscape of policing, it does need

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change. The problem with this report is it has taken 18 months to

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come out. We had Mr Winsor before our committee on his first report

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on Tuesday. It is helpful but it is only part of the solution. There

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are bits I like, there are bits I think will create problems.

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idea of a fitter police force? long as they don't start

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introducing fitness tests for MPs I don't have a problem! Have caught

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it is important that police officers are fit. If you look

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around the Palace of Westminster, there are people who are right for

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the job. Things like performance- related pay, Andrew, does it mean

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they have to rest a certain number of people during a day or a week?

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If they don't, they get their pay docked or they get more pay? I was

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hoping you would answer that! I ask the questions! What does it do?

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That is what the public want. The day I first met the police officer,

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they knocked on the door of my house and asked to see my father

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and they informed my mother he had been killed in an accident and they

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spent a huge amount of time with her. I was 14 years old. That time

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is not going to be able to be spent. The public don't want officers on

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the end of the phone. I can't answer your questions, you can't

:17:05.:17:11.

answer your questions. Let's ask Mark. There is very little in the

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way of performance bonuses we have seen in this new scheme. There

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might be one element of �600 you get if you have particular skills.

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We have seen the special priority payments have been done away with

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and that has saved money for the police. Is that a good thing?

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think so. As a member of a police authority, I initially supported

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these but the more I saw of these, I thought it was divisive. Do you

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think these reforms go far enough? I am very impressed with what I

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have read so far of this very substantial and considered report.

:17:45.:17:48.

It really is going to give us... You think the Government should

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push ahead with this? Put it into effect? The principles of this are

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very good. They will also help the police start recruiting again. If

:17:59.:18:06.

you allow the police to bring in new officers, what that can mean

:18:06.:18:09.

his most forces have hundreds if not thousands of people wanting to

:18:09.:18:14.

join the police. They can bring in new people with some of the money

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for that money saved. Something jumped out at me from the report.

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They wanted a scheme allowing new recruits directly to enter the

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police service at inspector rank. Is that the beginning of trying to

:18:28.:18:32.

create an officer class? We need to look carefully at these proposals

:18:32.:18:38.

and put them in the context of what the Government is doing. We all

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want to see professional officers. This is a profession, one of the

:18:42.:18:45.

most important and respected professions in the country. Of

:18:45.:18:51.

course we have to look at these issues. It has not had an offer

:18:51.:18:55.

could -- officer class like the army. Is it right? The manager of

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the local Tesco has been successful a lot of product, but I'm against

:19:00.:19:04.

him coming into the police force as Inspector. We need to study these

:19:04.:19:10.

proposals carefully. Look at our profession as MPs. We have people

:19:10.:19:13.

coming in from every single walk of life. There's nothing wrong with

:19:13.:19:19.

that. You are nearly all professional politicians? Police 4

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x lawyer's... My case rests! need to be careful who these people

:19:24.:19:30.

are. We need to look at the requirements. Do you want to see...

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It's been a criticism and people are either for it or against it.

:19:34.:19:38.

Some people's critique of the police have said it's never had a

:19:38.:19:42.

proper officer class the way the army or the military has. That

:19:42.:19:47.

might be the wrong analogy. strikes the right balance. It

:19:47.:19:51.

doesn't go all the way to a separate officer class, but it

:19:51.:19:55.

allows for accelerated promotion. He inspectorate will be open to

:19:55.:20:01.

existing police officers as well as people from outside. You have that

:20:01.:20:10.

at superintendent level. Crucially, we will open the police up at Chief

:20:10.:20:15.

Constable level to people from Australia, the US, other people who

:20:15.:20:18.

have experience, to bring in new ideas. I don't think there will be

:20:19.:20:24.

a lot of new people, but the possibility of it has to be good.

:20:24.:20:34.

Let me give you this... Politicians on the left and the right often say

:20:34.:20:39.

the police needs more reform. Its real critics call it, along with

:20:39.:20:42.

the prison services officers, the last unreformed public service. If

:20:42.:20:47.

you listen to the Police Federation, they say we have seen a minimum 20%

:20:47.:20:53.

cut to the police budget, a loss of 16,000 officers over the next four

:20:53.:20:56.

years, 300 million removed from police pay, increased pension

:20:56.:21:00.

contributions, a two-year public sector pay freeze, a cap of 1%

:21:00.:21:05.

increase in years three and four. Let me encapsulate that. Enough is

:21:05.:21:10.

enough. I'm in favour of reform, but what you have to do is carry

:21:10.:21:13.

the police with you. What we have got is this stand-off which they

:21:14.:21:18.

feel everything has been done which undermines them. What the Home

:21:19.:21:21.

Secretary and Nick Herbert have to do is make sure they are part of

:21:21.:21:27.

the solution. Bring them with the Government on these reforms. There

:21:27.:21:32.

will be opposition. There is opposition! I do hope ministers

:21:32.:21:35.

will push most of this through because I think it is the right

:21:35.:21:39.

thing for the police force. What you have said in terms of those

:21:39.:21:43.

reductions, those savings, that means that many more people can

:21:43.:21:48.

stay on as police officers, we can recruit more officers. We also have

:21:48.:21:52.

to look at the police staff and get them working together with the

:21:52.:21:55.

police without these artificial divisions we've had in the past.

:21:55.:22:00.

What are your thoughts, Caroline? The list of the cuts you just read

:22:00.:22:03.

out is instructive because that is the backdrop for this and it is not

:22:03.:22:07.

surprising that the police feel very under pressure and battered at

:22:07.:22:10.

the moment and therefore somewhat suspicious of some of the

:22:10.:22:14.

recommendations in the latest report. My concern around some of

:22:14.:22:17.

the work around direct entry is the Government says it wants the police

:22:17.:22:20.

to be held in the same esteem as doctors and lawyers, so do why, but

:22:20.:22:24.

in doctors and lawyers you would not have someone coming in at

:22:24.:22:27.

direct entry level and do some operations on you. One would hope

:22:27.:22:33.

not! It is a very strange way of trying to achieve the end they want.

:22:33.:22:43.
:22:43.:22:45.

We will leave it there. Thank you. Gay marriage is back on the agenda

:22:45.:22:47.

today with the Equalities Minister, Lynne Featherstone, launching a

:22:47.:22:50.

consultation this morning. The Government say they want to

:22:50.:22:52.

legislate to allow what they call "equal marriage," but although

:22:52.:22:55.

Conservative MPs have been told they're be allowed a free vote,

:22:55.:22:58.

there is anger amongst some Tory backbenchers, not to mention many

:22:58.:23:06.

in the church. Speaking this morning, Lynne Featherstone said:

:23:06.:23:11.

It was very clear that there was a big inequality, the great

:23:11.:23:16.

unhappiness with that particular barrier. Civil marriages, the

:23:16.:23:20.

marriages offered by the state, were only available to opposite sex

:23:20.:23:25.

couples. We have a law that doesn't discriminate. We believe that

:23:25.:23:28.

people, same-sex people's love and commitment is exactly the same as

:23:28.:23:33.

people from the opposite sex. As the Government, we feel we are duty

:23:33.:23:37.

bound to offer the same facilities, if you like, to people regardless

:23:38.:23:42.

of their gender. This is about love and wanting to be married.

:23:42.:23:46.

With me now is the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesman, Tom Brake.

:23:46.:23:53.

And Austin ivory from Catholic voices. Listening to the equalities

:23:53.:23:57.

minister, what exactly is going to be gained in terms of any legal

:23:57.:24:01.

advantage? There doesn't seem to be any difference in terms of

:24:01.:24:05.

increased rights between gay marriage and civil partnerships.

:24:05.:24:12.

marriage is different. That is why many people choose to get married.

:24:12.:24:16.

That is why many gay people want to get married. I think there is a

:24:16.:24:21.

difference. But there won't be any new rights. The rights you get with

:24:21.:24:24.

the civil partnership will be the same for us if you are having a gay

:24:24.:24:30.

marriage. They are different, qualitatively, but it is actually

:24:30.:24:34.

about providing an opportunity for same-sex people to get married. I

:24:34.:24:38.

really don't see the problem. supposed to be a consultation at

:24:38.:24:42.

the moment, but it is not a consultation over whether it will

:24:42.:24:46.

happen, because it is clear the Government has made up its mind, it

:24:46.:24:50.

is how it will be implemented. is. All three party leaders are

:24:50.:24:54.

committed to gay marriage. This is about how to do it and not whether

:24:54.:25:00.

to do it. It was not in any manifesto. Not in the Conservative

:25:00.:25:04.

or Lib Dem manifestoes. It is the commitment we have decided to make.

:25:04.:25:08.

It is fair for the fair for a government come forward with

:25:08.:25:12.

proposals there's demand for. Interestingly, recent polls suggest

:25:12.:25:16.

over 60% of people think same-sex relationships are just as valid as

:25:16.:25:20.

heterosexual ones and if that is the case, why can't same-sex people

:25:20.:25:24.

get married? Her you argue there is a groundswell of opinion in favour

:25:24.:25:28.

of this happening? The polls suggest people think heterosexual

:25:28.:25:32.

and same-sex relationships are of equal value. There's been talk that

:25:32.:25:36.

Tory backbenchers are happy, some of them. I don't have numbers and I

:25:36.:25:40.

don't think it has been that vocal in terms of people who may be

:25:40.:25:44.

unhappy about it. Is there going to be a free vote? Will that

:25:44.:25:49.

categorically happen? 5 not sure whether there's going to be. I

:25:49.:25:55.

suspect that already we he reports some people will be given some

:25:55.:25:58.

flexibility in relation to this vote, but it's a clear commitment

:25:58.:26:02.

from the Government, a very clear expression of support from David

:26:02.:26:05.

Cameron that this is something the Government wants to do and I hope

:26:05.:26:08.

Tory and Lib Dem members will want to support this unanimously. It

:26:09.:26:12.

also has the support of the Labour Party. Would you like to see a free

:26:12.:26:16.

vote on this issue? The Government have made it clear this is

:26:16.:26:20.

something we intend daring and from a Lib Dem perspective, it is

:26:20.:26:23.

something there is a policy commitment to. Their something I'm

:26:23.:26:27.

baffled about. Lynne Featherstone has been at pains to stress that

:26:27.:26:31.

this is no obligation on churches or religious organisations to hold

:26:31.:26:36.

these ceremonies in a religious setting. Is it true that some

:26:36.:26:41.

religious groups... Liberal Jews, for instance, or Quakers, would

:26:41.:26:45.

like to hold a gay marriage in the synagogue but they can't? That's

:26:45.:26:50.

correct. What we are consulting on his about civil marriage and

:26:50.:26:53.

anything that the Government does would not actually legally allow

:26:53.:26:58.

religious marriage to take place. That is why on a bit confused as to

:26:58.:27:01.

why the Catholic Church, for instance, is as concerned as they

:27:01.:27:05.

appear to be. Why is the Catholic Church so concerned? Because people

:27:05.:27:10.

are concerned. This isn't just about the church. The polls show

:27:10.:27:12.

70% of people believe the current definition of marriage should stay

:27:12.:27:17.

the same. How does that square with the polls... The poll he was

:27:17.:27:21.

referring to was referring to the quality of relationships and life.

:27:21.:27:25.

People do respect homosexual love. When people asked about marriage,

:27:25.:27:29.

most people believe that the have gunged an institution, man passed

:27:29.:27:34.

woman. They wanted to stay that way. For duvet? That is maybe what

:27:34.:27:38.

people understand it to be, but why can't that change? People don't

:27:38.:27:41.

want it to change because they recognise it is a unique

:27:41.:27:46.

institution with unique benefits. Not only is it an institution that

:27:46.:27:51.

exists in societies, the building block of civil society. The state

:27:51.:27:54.

exists to recognise and protect that marriage institution in the

:27:54.:27:59.

same way the Church St defies it. The proposal here is not just to

:27:59.:28:04.

allow a group -- the group of people to marry, it is to rearrange

:28:04.:28:07.

the architecture of marriage. is civil marriage. It doesn't have

:28:07.:28:11.

anything to do with judges for religions in that sense. You are

:28:11.:28:16.

not being asked to preside over these ceremonies. There are not two

:28:16.:28:20.

marriages in this country. There are two ways in to it, the civil

:28:20.:28:25.

and religious. Parliament decided nearly 200 years ago what the

:28:25.:28:28.

definition of marriage was. It is right that parliament should take

:28:28.:28:31.

the decision in relation to equal marriage. This is about providing

:28:31.:28:35.

it an opportunity for people who love each other to get married. I

:28:35.:28:43.

can't see the problem. desperate to come in! This issue is

:28:43.:28:47.

fundamental. It is about equality. That is why it seems odd to be

:28:47.:28:52.

worrying so much about whether or not it is 70% or 60% in favour. It

:28:52.:28:56.

is an issue about the qualities. We would not be having debate about

:28:56.:29:00.

this about whether women should have the vote. If you place the

:29:00.:29:03.

issue in that context of the qualities it is clear that the

:29:03.:29:06.

Government is doing the right thing. I'm not sure we need a consultation,

:29:07.:29:14.

I would like to see them just do it. It was in no manifesto. Suddenly we

:29:14.:29:18.

have this consultation paper being launched. This has been thrust upon

:29:18.:29:23.

people. You say it is about equality. There is no legal right

:29:23.:29:27.

gained by this. Equality and equivalents are not the same thing.

:29:27.:29:32.

If we were to open pensions to the under 65, that would be to overcome

:29:32.:29:36.

discrimination but it would also destroy pensions. What shocks me

:29:36.:29:40.

about this debate is that senior Catholic church leaders have

:29:40.:29:44.

described the proposals -- proposals as grotesque. I find that

:29:44.:29:47.

shocking. We're talking about allowing people who love each other

:29:47.:29:53.

to get married. Why is that grotesque? Had you feel about being

:29:53.:29:59.

accused of inflaming homophobia? That his inflammatory to say to the

:29:59.:30:02.

church that they are homophobic when the church is expressing the

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:13.

majority view of civil society. We want to welcome folks from

:30:13.:30:17.

Scotland who are watching now. They have been watching First Minister's

:30:17.:30:22.

Question, gay marriage was also on the agenda there. That is what we

:30:22.:30:26.

are talking about here in London as well, about the Government's

:30:26.:30:30.

changes here in Westminster for gay marriage. We hope in a few minutes

:30:30.:30:36.

to be joined by indeed I have been told he may be there now BBC

:30:36.:30:40.

Scotland's political editor Brian Taylor. Great to see you. What are

:30:40.:30:49.

they saying about gay marriage in the land of the brave? We have a

:30:49.:30:56.

picture of Brian. But clearly, they have nothing to say at all. Where

:30:56.:31:01.

do we go from here? We have a consultation, this consultation is

:31:01.:31:05.

about how to implement these rights, and what I think will, the

:31:05.:31:09.

Government will make very clear, is this is not about religious

:31:09.:31:12.

marriage, this is about civil marriage. When I got married in a

:31:12.:31:17.

civil marriage, that was a commitment to my wife, I didn't, we

:31:17.:31:20.

didn't emback, on something with the intent purpose of having

:31:20.:31:25.

children, so to suggest marriage is simply about procreation. It is not

:31:25.:31:30.

true. I didn't suggest that. think we have sound with Brian

:31:30.:31:34.

Taylor now. Brian. Good to see you. Thank you for joining u we are

:31:34.:31:36.

talking about gay marriage down here, tell us what the situation,

:31:36.:31:41.

the debate is in Scotland? I would be interested, because it has been

:31:41.:31:45.

said although in economic terms Scotland is more radical than

:31:45.:31:50.

England, in social terms, Scotland is often a more Conservative

:31:50.:31:54.

country, where are we? It is often thought to be that, if you recall

:31:54.:32:00.

the debate early on the business of clause 13, really, I think on the

:32:00.:32:05.

promotion of homosexuality in school, it was a very huge emotive

:32:05.:32:09.

edebate and the change wend ahead. At this point in Scotland there is

:32:09.:32:13.

a consultation issued, responses to that closed at the end of last year,

:32:13.:32:17.

and the Scottish Government say they Alex Salmond was asked about

:32:17.:32:21.

it, say they are considering the response, they got 50,000 response,

:32:21.:32:24.

very large indeed. The indication previously had been the Scottish

:32:24.:32:27.

Government would give the verdict in the spring. I think the spring

:32:27.:32:31.

in Scotland maybe extended a bit perhaps towards May or June.

:32:31.:32:34.

Ministers, Alex Salmond has said in the past he is in favour of the

:32:34.:32:41.

equality issue going ahead, in favour there by of gay marriage. He

:32:41.:32:44.

said in response to prompting from the leader of the Liberal Democrats

:32:44.:32:48.

who said stand against the serious forces, the church and others,

:32:49.:32:52.

arguing against this change, Mr Samed said it was right to take

:32:52.:32:56.

account of the consultation, and he urged those who were demanding that

:32:56.:33:00.

he stick to his path, that they shouldn't use inflammatory language.

:33:00.:33:07.

He said it was the wrong thing the debate required. Thank you for that

:33:07.:33:13.

Brian. An extended spring in Scotland? Brian is predicting that

:33:13.:33:17.

there. It is the nicest time of the year in Scotland, I hope it is

:33:17.:33:23.

extended. Thank you to our guests. Let us move on to something equally

:33:23.:33:27.

controversial. Who would be a banker? It seems not a day goes by

:33:27.:33:30.

wouldn't these poor misunderstood souls being attacked in the press

:33:30.:33:35.

for the sides of their bonuss or salaries or both. Is all this

:33:35.:33:39.

banker bashing justified or is it is a distraction from the real

:33:39.:33:49.
:33:49.:33:55.

issues facing the economy? # Life the rich

:33:55.:34:01.

# And rich is nice # But all things come at a price #

:34:01.:34:07.

The very fact that a group of actors can put on in the West End,

:34:08.:34:16.

and expect the public to come and watch a play called Toxic Bankers

:34:16.:34:20.

demonstrates how disliked these people are. Do they really deserve

:34:20.:34:23.

it? Should we give them a break? have gone too far. We are saying

:34:23.:34:28.

that finance is useless, it is parasitic, they shouldn't exist or

:34:28.:34:32.

it shouldn't exist in the UK. That is totally misguided and economic

:34:32.:34:37.

suicide for the UK. Even bankers admit that to lift to cloud of

:34:37.:34:41.

suspicion from them, a deal M&S now be done that ensures banks stay

:34:42.:34:46.

afloat and never rely on us for bail ought. But their pay is so

:34:46.:34:52.

high. Isn't it? # The avaricious values sh

:34:52.:34:56.

# On which our lives are built # Mean in this time of crisis

:34:56.:35:03.

# We have to share the guilt # The official data shows about a

:35:03.:35:09.

third of 50 pence taxpayers work in the financial sector. So they will

:35:09.:35:13.

be people who work in industry, actor, doctors, all sorts of

:35:13.:35:17.

profession like that, so it is wrong to think the only place where

:35:17.:35:23.

there is very large salaries is finance, that is not the case. This

:35:23.:35:26.

musical doesn't include the song brother can you spare a dime? Isn't

:35:26.:35:35.

that the crux of our anger? They won't lend to anyone any more.

:35:35.:35:43.

# Smash the system # Trash the bankers #

:35:43.:35:47.

What happened here is that the Government have stepped in and

:35:47.:35:50.

massively changed regulations governing lending. They are forcing

:35:50.:35:55.

banks to lend less, telling them to lend at a more expensive rate by

:35:55.:36:00.

forcing them to hold more capital. Many of these reforms make sense,

:36:00.:36:03.

because they ensure the banking system is more prudent and there is

:36:03.:36:08.

more, greater reserves in case something goes wrong, but the

:36:08.:36:12.

consequence of that is always higher lending costs, and reduced

:36:12.:36:17.

lending. OK, that is all very clever, but they started this

:36:17.:36:23.

crisis. # Who's to blame? #

:36:23.:36:27.

As everyone is aware we were happy to take the mortgage, credit cards

:36:27.:36:30.

when they were available, although there are important questions to be

:36:30.:36:35.

asked about bankers, perhaps we are all a bit to blame. In a way we

:36:35.:36:42.

probably could have called the show Toxic Bankers? After seeing that we

:36:42.:36:48.

could have the singing Daily Politics. Joining me is Mark

:36:48.:36:54.

Littlewood. Let me bowl you a fast one right away. Bob Diamond picked

:36:54.:36:58.

up �28 million last year, justify that. It is not for me to justify

:36:58.:37:00.

it. It for the shareholders to justify. The last thing we need

:37:01.:37:04.

which is the danger we are moving into is having politicians debating

:37:04.:37:11.

this. We almost had the near farce of Steven Hester's salary being

:37:11.:37:14.

debated on the floor of the House. But politicians are going to debate

:37:14.:37:19.

it? I think what we still have is this back wash still, a fury about

:37:19.:37:22.

the abilities, that there is this feeling if the taxpayers leap to

:37:22.:37:27.

your aid if you go bust, you can't have this heads I win, details you

:37:27.:37:32.

bail me out. If we can move, which I think we are taking steps towards,

:37:33.:37:38.

that if Barclays goes down it is wound up rather than bailed out. It

:37:38.:37:41.

is up to Barclay what is they are paid. They have to makes the

:37:41.:37:44.

judgment, not politicians. Well, there are issues of fairns here,

:37:44.:37:50.

and it goes wider than the banks. I can see that Bob Diamond is kind of

:37:50.:37:55.

at the upper echelons of this. If you look at the, the directors of

:37:55.:38:01.

leading British firm, this is not just bankers but all firm, they saw

:38:01.:38:07.

their earnings in the last financial year rise by 49%. And yet

:38:07.:38:16.

average pay, in the private sector rose by 2.6%. Why it is fair for

:38:16.:38:23.

the bosses to get 49%, and the ordinary workers to get 2.6%?

:38:23.:38:27.

averages cover a very wide range of different areas. There was one boss

:38:27.:38:35.

I think that goes into that figure whose salary went up 400%. But his

:38:35.:38:39.

company performed fantasticically. They are getting big erase, we are

:38:39.:38:44.

told in the information age that a company runs on its brain, that the

:38:44.:38:50.

quality and productivity and brainpower of the work force.

:38:50.:38:55.

the guy at the top. Why the discrepancy. You need to go through

:38:55.:39:00.

company by company, but the guy at the top is very important,

:39:00.:39:07.

sometimes people make in, I think, wrong suggestion that if the share

:39:07.:39:12.

price fall the boss must be doing a bad job. Sometimes that is not true.

:39:12.:39:18.

Sometimes the hardst job is to stabilise a fail ing company.

:39:18.:39:24.

you telling me that Bob dime would work only half as hard if we paid

:39:24.:39:29.

him �14 million. It is not a question of us paying him. We all

:39:29.:39:33.

have insurance policies, the money is, in a sense, I mean let me not

:39:33.:39:37.

take a populist line on this, let me do it another way. This is theft

:39:37.:39:41.

from the shareholders. This is money that belongs to the

:39:41.:39:44.

shareholders that senior management are pinching. Not pinching it. You

:39:45.:39:51.

have to decide, there has to be a process to decide what the is

:39:51.:39:55.

correct remuen Asian, would be 20 be OK, they have to have a process

:39:55.:40:00.

in place, that determines what they think he is worth, it is not qeef

:40:00.:40:04.

him working... You know as well as I do, shareholders do not determine

:40:04.:40:10.

these salaries. They don't. That is a fiction. It is remuen nation

:40:10.:40:14.

committees that determine them. Not always, often, I am on your

:40:14.:40:20.

committee if you sit on mine and we will both get �28 million. I think

:40:20.:40:25.

there is a case for greater shareholder activism, but we can't.

:40:25.:40:29.

It would be disastrous if we got into a cycle that any ort of

:40:29.:40:34.

substantial salary in the tns shall services is pinching or stealing,

:40:34.:40:38.

it isn't. I wanted to sign you up, I thought you were doing a really

:40:38.:40:45.

good job. I am cheaper than �28 million. You are right of the

:40:45.:40:48.

limitations for shareholders to hold chief executive to account.

:40:48.:40:53.

Some of the shares are held for microseconds before they get passed

:40:53.:40:58.

on. Many are held by others in other countries and others have

:40:58.:41:01.

vested interested. So that is not going to work. I think particularly

:41:01.:41:06.

now, at a time when we are supposed to be in this together. Where have

:41:06.:41:11.

I heard that? It is corrosive for people to say their own salaries

:41:11.:41:17.

going down, at the same time as you say, these bankers and many others

:41:17.:41:22.

are getting high pay outs. There is one way you could say these guys

:41:22.:41:26.

are getting really big salaries and they are nearly all guys. They are

:41:26.:41:30.

getting big salaries. We don't think they are worth it but in the

:41:30.:41:34.

end of the day the consequences of Government trying to intervene in

:41:34.:41:37.

the private sector and saying you are worth that, that is never going

:41:37.:41:41.

to work in the end. Let us take the view Bob Diamond is getting 28

:41:41.:41:46.

million, we the taxpayer will get 14 million of that and so we are

:41:46.:41:49.

quids in. That is what I would suggest, that rather than having

:41:49.:41:54.

politicians try and work out what the figure should be, let us have a

:41:54.:41:58.

50% tax and a permanent tax on bonuses, that would be a simple way

:41:58.:42:02.

of doing it. You could look at issues of the differential between

:42:02.:42:07.

company, putting the highest paid and lowest paid. That concentrates

:42:07.:42:12.

mind. If people want to get higher they would have to bring up the

:42:12.:42:15.

lowest paid. There was a documentary on the BBC last night,

:42:15.:42:20.

not mine, from America, they talked in the 1950s the differential

:42:20.:42:23.

tweenk between the chief executive of the General Motors and the

:42:23.:42:30.

average worker was 40-1. Today it is 550-1. That is a huge difference.

:42:30.:42:34.

Any way I have run out of hard balls so you can put your bat down

:42:34.:42:40.

and go back to the tea room. Always good to be bowled out by you Andrew.

:42:40.:42:44.

David Cameron and Barack Obama have promised to review the rules on

:42:44.:42:47.

extradition following a series of high profile case, the current ex

:42:48.:42:51.

pra dition treaty between Britain and America was signed in 2003.

:42:51.:42:55.

Complaints were raised over the case of the NatWest Three who were

:42:55.:42:59.

extradited to America, and convicted of fraud connected to the

:42:59.:43:04.

Enron scandal. Then there was Gary McKinnon whon has been accused of

:43:04.:43:08.

hacking NASA and Pentagon computers. Concern has been raised by the case

:43:08.:43:10.

of Christopher Tappin, the businessman who is awaiting trial

:43:11.:43:15.

in America on charges of illegally exporting goods to Iran. Last month

:43:16.:43:20.

David Cameron said that Mr Tappin's case raised the need for a

:43:20.:43:23.

thoughtful review of the process. His son Neil told the Daily

:43:23.:43:27.

Politics he felt his father's treatment had been unfair. He has

:43:27.:43:31.

never once had the opportunity to show any of the evidence on his

:43:31.:43:35.

side of the argument, so in the hear information this country, the

:43:35.:43:42.

US put across their side of the story, and then our lawyers had to

:43:42.:43:46.

argue a few technical points which were pointless, so he goes out

:43:46.:43:51.

there, he is in a cell on his own, no contact with us, 5,000 miles

:43:51.:43:58.

away from home. It feels to us and if his presumption ofness has been

:43:58.:44:05.

lost. That that is Neil Tappin talking about his faer. Let us get

:44:05.:44:08.

more from Dominic Raab. What can be done? Is this not just window

:44:08.:44:13.

dressing? We have had a review, we have had the baker review, he was

:44:13.:44:18.

very clear, he said the treaty was not one sided. It doesn't operate

:44:18.:44:23.

in an unbalanced manner. Apart from tweaking nothing is going to change

:44:23.:44:28.

I would dispute that on the facts. The ratio of citizens between the

:44:28.:44:33.

US and UK is something like five to one. It is in practise lopsided.

:44:33.:44:37.

The point Baker made is that the legal tests, the evidential tests

:44:37.:44:41.

are broadly similar, that is true, I think more or less but the key

:44:41.:44:45.

thing is the way judges look at the evidence in the US, and they don't

:44:45.:44:49.

do that here. The other critical think thing, I think that is what

:44:49.:44:53.

is being trailed is this idea of a forum test, when you cross border

:44:53.:45:00.

cases what this means is they could be tried here if it's a crime here.

:45:00.:45:07.

Do you dispute what Scott Baker has done. His conclusions are clear, it

:45:07.:45:10.

doesn't leave room for manoeuvre for David Cameron to look at this

:45:10.:45:16.

again. I disagree. We have had review, there is a problem with the

:45:16.:45:19.

Baker review, four months on we don't have any of the evidence it

:45:19.:45:22.

received. That cast a shadow over the credibility of the report.

:45:22.:45:29.

it going to be published? I am calling for it to be published.

:45:29.:45:34.

that because you are worried it wasn't as independent as it said on

:45:34.:45:39.

the tin? I am no doubt about the propriety of Scott Baker but the

:45:39.:45:42.

evidence was shifted over the Home Office. It is extraordinary to have

:45:42.:45:47.

an independent review and you don't have the evidence published so

:45:47.:45:54.

people can see why people came ep to these conclusions. There is a

:45:54.:45:58.

case of baba Ahmed who has been in prison without charge and the US

:45:58.:46:03.

wants to extradite him. He hasn't been. This is a case that you

:46:03.:46:09.

brought, shouldn't he be extradited. No, he is a UK citizen. The crimes

:46:09.:46:12.

which he is alleged to have committed are supposed to have

:46:12.:46:16.

happened in the UK. We should be trying that in this country. He is

:46:16.:46:18.

under severe accusation and it is right there should be a trial. He

:46:18.:46:23.

wants a trial. U but it should be in the UK where the crimes are

:46:23.:46:28.

alleged to have occurred. Where someone hasn't been extradite, we

:46:28.:46:32.

are seeing the example where people feel they have been handed over too

:46:32.:46:36.

easily and quickly. The whole thing is a mess. Whatever you think it

:46:36.:46:39.

can't be right to hold someone for years as a matter of principle that

:46:39.:46:43.

can't be right. I think David Cameron is brave taking this on. He

:46:43.:46:46.

is addressing the matter with the President, something that Tony

:46:47.:46:51.

Blair was scared to do, with all those accusations of being a poodle.

:46:51.:46:55.

It is important he addresses this. There is an expectation that

:46:55.:47:00.

something will happen. The House of Commons voted for reform, not just

:47:00.:47:04.

of the US arrangement but the European arrest warrant.

:47:04.:47:08.

officials are looking at how this treaty is working, are you

:47:08.:47:12.

optimistic is going to change. Something is, you have heard the

:47:12.:47:16.

Prime Minister and the President saying they are going to examine it

:47:16.:47:20.

and that has to be good news. Greens achieved the dream of any

:47:20.:47:24.

small party, they got a seat in the Commons. Caroline Lucas won

:47:24.:47:29.

Brighton Pavillion. He is a lone voice and there is a limit to what

:47:29.:47:35.

one MP can do. Has it allowed The Greens to shine. We sent David

:47:35.:47:45.
:47:45.:47:45.

Thompson up the property ladder to This might be the most eco-friendly

:47:45.:47:49.

house in Britain and if the greens were in power, they would probably

:47:49.:47:54.

like us all to live in a place like this. But they do have one foot on

:47:54.:47:57.

the Westminster property ladder. The Green Party now have a seat at

:47:57.:48:01.

the top table of British politics and it has always been seen as a

:48:01.:48:05.

triumph to have a green voice on the green benches, but actually, as

:48:05.:48:10.

having an MP made a blind bit of difference? It has been an article

:48:10.:48:15.

of faith that getting an MP in Parliament would be the be-all and

:48:15.:48:19.

end-all for a small minority party. We now know that is not the case.

:48:19.:48:24.

It is massively important and the role Caroline has is important, but

:48:24.:48:28.

the success of green ideas does not depend on having one MP in

:48:28.:48:32.

Parliament. There are some who describe themselves as turquoise

:48:32.:48:36.

Tories, True Blues but a bit green who are frankly fairly caustic

:48:36.:48:41.

about the impact Caroline Lucas has made. I'm not sure I'm finding

:48:41.:48:47.

having a green member of parliament as creative as I thought it might

:48:47.:48:52.

be, for creating as much attention as I was expecting. I would say

:48:52.:48:57.

good on the publicity, but maybe a bit light on policy. Apart from

:48:57.:49:04.

Caroline in Westminster, the Greens have two MSPs in Scotland, and 133

:49:04.:49:06.

councillors in England and Wales and they control one council,

:49:06.:49:10.

Brighton and Hove. They have to make gains in local government, but

:49:10.:49:14.

think it is too early to say what will happen in Westminster. But

:49:14.:49:18.

even their friends are doubtful whether Caroline will have to budge

:49:18.:49:22.

up any time soon. It is difficult to make the sunshine there -- a

:49:22.:49:26.

function that having one Green MP in Parliament, however good, it

:49:26.:49:30.

leads automatically to the election of a lot of green MPs. That doesn't

:49:30.:49:34.

mean sitting in splendid isolation in the Palace of Westminster is a

:49:34.:49:41.

waste of time. Organisations like Age UK and Kucker look at most MPs

:49:41.:49:46.

in vain. The debate on nuclear power, where all the major parties

:49:46.:49:50.

have given up on finding alternatives to nuclear power, the

:49:50.:49:55.

Green Party can do that. There's a very important role of bringing

:49:55.:49:57.

these radical and ideas into the heart of the system that seems

:49:57.:50:02.

locked into this very cruel politics of austerity without any

:50:02.:50:06.

imagination about how a better world might be created. Or maybe it

:50:06.:50:13.

is. As a single issue parliamentarian, there's a huge

:50:13.:50:18.

opportunity. I'm not sure she has taken that opportunity and I am not

:50:18.:50:24.

sure the green message is coming through as strongly. Her platform,

:50:24.:50:28.

as it is from the coalition's platform, she is responding to our

:50:28.:50:32.

policies, not the other way. Harsh words but that's life in

:50:32.:50:36.

Westminster. Will that ever really be the ideal home for the Green

:50:36.:50:42.

Party? Caroline is still with us. I didn't

:50:42.:50:49.

run away! I don't blame me. It was obviously going to be difficult

:50:49.:50:53.

because you're one of over 600 and you what a woman in what is still a

:50:53.:50:59.

kind of men's club, despite the increase in women. Has it been more

:50:59.:51:03.

difficult than you thought or have you been able to make more of an

:51:03.:51:08.

impact than you had? It depends how you measure impact. In terms of

:51:08.:51:11.

getting key issues on the political agenda that otherwise would not

:51:11.:51:16.

have been there, we can say I've been successful. Example?

:51:16.:51:20.

nuclear power. The Liberals are meekly following the Conservatives

:51:21.:51:24.

and they have given up their opposition to nuclear power. The

:51:24.:51:28.

majority of people are opposed. Where is the voice and the Commons?

:51:28.:51:35.

If you look at the social issue, the NHS, who first started to push

:51:35.:51:38.

commercialisation in the NHS? Labour. The Lib Dems are following

:51:38.:51:42.

the Tories through the lobbies. Who is standing up for real public

:51:42.:51:47.

health service? The greens. Afghanistan, I've put down the

:51:47.:51:50.

amendment in a debate on Afghanistan calling for troops to

:51:50.:51:54.

be withdrawn. That did not come from any other party. If you're

:51:54.:51:59.

measuring it by putting issues on the grander, we are doing it. If

:51:59.:52:05.

you are asking if I can outvote 649 others... I can't. I wonder if the

:52:05.:52:09.

Times have been propitious for you. There are two ways in which Green

:52:09.:52:13.

issues have been put on the back- burner. One is the economic Times,

:52:13.:52:17.

which are quite grim and people are more worried about putting bread on

:52:17.:52:24.

the table, and the global warming issue, rightly or wrongly, has been

:52:24.:52:27.

put on the back foot as well. The public are more sceptical than they

:52:27.:52:31.

were. Let me take the first one around whether or not there's a

:52:31.:52:34.

contradiction between trying to get the economy back on track and

:52:34.:52:39.

promoting investment in green technologies. My role is unique.

:52:39.:52:42.

I'm the only one saying there doesn't have to be a division

:52:42.:52:47.

between these things, precisely by investing in energy efficiency and

:52:47.:52:52.

renewables. They would have vastly good economic effects as well as

:52:52.:52:57.

good environmental effects. I was able to help instigate an inquiry

:52:57.:53:00.

into the green economy to make sure those arguments were heard by a

:53:00.:53:04.

cross-party committee of MPs and hopefully then to go forward to

:53:04.:53:07.

make recommendations for the Government. Since getting elected,

:53:07.:53:11.

we have been a strong green voice in Parliament. Membership of the

:53:11.:53:15.

Green Party has doubled. We have our first council in Brighton and

:53:15.:53:24.

Hove. Success in your grasp! What more can I say?

:53:24.:53:27.

All those pictures we've seen on the news and in the papers of David

:53:27.:53:30.

Cameron and Barack Obama schmoozing must be the stuff spin doctors

:53:30.:53:33.

dream of. But just how important are these photo opportunities and

:53:33.:53:36.

what happens when they don't go according to plan? In a moment,

:53:37.:53:40.

I'll be speaking to one of Tony Blair's former spin doctors as well

:53:40.:53:42.

as the Sun's former political editor, but first, here's a look

:53:43.:53:52.
:53:53.:53:53.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds

:53:53.:54:51.

There was a great end! Well, former Labour spin doctor

:54:51.:54:54.

Lance Price and George Pascow Watson, who's now at the PR firm

:54:54.:55:02.

Portland, are with us now. Do they work or of a very risky? They are

:55:02.:55:06.

slightly risky, but in the name, particularly with someone like

:55:06.:55:10.

David Cameron, who is a natural performer, they are fantastic. A

:55:10.:55:14.

great set of pictures can tell a fantastic story and they also give

:55:14.:55:17.

a politician the chance to shine as a normal human being away from

:55:18.:55:22.

Westminster. I presume that is what they are for, to show they are

:55:22.:55:27.

human. We know they are. But to show them in normal surroundings.

:55:27.:55:31.

But that clip of Tony Blair on the Tube, he looked really awkward, I

:55:31.:55:36.

thought. I have to put my hand on your heart -- my heart. I was Byley

:55:36.:55:41.

responsible. The idea was to make him look as if he understood the

:55:41.:55:46.

concerns of normal people. Travelling on public transport. But

:55:46.:55:52.

it is not true. You can only do it if it is true. It has to look right.

:55:52.:55:56.

When we put him on the Tube or when we encouraged him to travel by

:55:56.:55:59.

Ryanair on holiday one time because there were too many stories about

:55:59.:56:03.

his fancy holidays, those sorts of photo opportunities go horribly

:56:03.:56:08.

wrong. When you look at pictures between American President's and

:56:08.:56:13.

British prime ministers, there's a feeling sometimes that you see that

:56:13.:56:18.

unequal relationship, however good the photo opportunity, they look as

:56:18.:56:22.

if they are the underling, if you like, to the American President. Is

:56:22.:56:26.

that something you can't overcome in a photo? I'm not sure it's too

:56:26.:56:30.

much of a problem. There will always be a sense that America is a

:56:30.:56:35.

bigger animal than Britain. People don't have the time that people who

:56:35.:56:39.

watched this show normally get to tune into politics. It is quite a

:56:39.:56:43.

boring and difficult subject for a lot of people. Sometimes big

:56:43.:56:46.

pictures like this are the way they get their perceptions and that is

:56:46.:56:50.

really important for politicians. It is also important to point out

:56:50.:56:54.

that what we've seen in this footage is a little bit. We haven't

:56:54.:56:58.

seen the private stuff. The prime minister had 80 minutes on Air

:56:58.:57:01.

Force One, one-on-one with the President. We don't see that sort

:57:01.:57:06.

of picture. It is important to give the picture of security, economic

:57:06.:57:10.

lakes and the fact we are being taken seriously. It doesn't change

:57:10.:57:16.

anyone's vote. I doubt it. You have to provide pictures for television.

:57:16.:57:21.

You guys need pictures. If you have a big event on the health service,

:57:21.:57:25.

for example, you will see another picture of David Cameron listening

:57:25.:57:29.

to nurses or Nick Clegg nodding his head sagely in the background,

:57:29.:57:33.

making it look like they are engaging. It is all a bit

:57:33.:57:38.

artificial. The real work goes on behind closed doors in really

:57:38.:57:41.

serious discussions and the prime ministers and party leaders get a

:57:41.:57:45.

bit fed up with these photo- opportunities. How much time do you

:57:45.:57:51.

spend on thinking about the photo opportunity? Whoever came up of

:57:51.:57:54.

that idea of Ed Balls and Andy Burnham swinging on those swings.

:57:54.:57:58.

There are people like me who think about these things all the time and

:57:58.:58:02.

it is not that easy. You get a brief that says make the prime

:58:02.:58:05.

minister look more human. You scratch your head. Half the time it

:58:05.:58:11.

doesn't work. Half the time it is counter-productive because prime

:58:11.:58:15.

ministers are not like the rest of us. Thank you for joining us.

:58:15.:58:20.

Time to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: What does

:58:20.:58:29.

David Cameron say he plays when he needs a lift? Do you know the

:58:29.:58:34.

answer? I can remind you... I was going to go for the last one but I

:58:34.:58:39.

can't remember. That was Champagne supernova by Oasis. Do you know?

:58:39.:58:46.

have drawn a blank. Thin Lizzie's Whiskey In The Jar.

:58:46.:58:50.

Andrew will sing it! You get to pick the winner. I was amazed that

:58:50.:58:53.

the President was allowed to use Air Force One to go to the

:58:53.:59:00.

basketball game. This is this the year winner. This is not the winner

:59:00.:59:08.

of that competition. This is yesterday's competition. The answer

:59:08.:59:12.

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