Browse content similar to 19/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Did the Home Secretary, Theresa May get | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
her dates mixed up? Theresa May has been summoned to the Commons to | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
answer questions about the confusion over the deportation of | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
radical Muslim cleric, Abu Qatada. Had happened in the Commons, we are | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
to bring you the latest. Reforms to the court are being | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
discussed in Brighton today. As the British Government tries to push | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
through what it claims are significant changes, but will it | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
get its way? The Government narrowly avoids defeat in the | :01:15. | :01:24. | |
Commons on plans to attack static caravans and today Joan Bakewell is | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
here to tell us why the granny tax should be scrapped. The clock tower, | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
to us, Big Ben, should it be renamed the Elizabeth Tower? All of | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
that coming up. With us today, former Chief | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Secretary to the Treasury, David Laws. | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
Now, we go to the breaking stories as we came on air, dramatic events | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
in the Commons with the Home Office proving its reputation as a | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
poisoned chalice for ministers. The case fr radical Muslim cleric, Abu | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
Qatada, has proved a thorny issue for the Home Secretary and all of | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
her Labour predecessors. This case goes all the way back to 2001. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
Theresa May was speaking in the House of Commons. Summoned there to | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
answer an urgent question this morning, Yvette Cooper leading the | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
attack for the Labour opposition. It looked like the saga was coming | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
to an end, but now it unravels and it continues. | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
So, the saga of deporting the radical Muslim cleric, Abu Qatada, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
goes on. The European Court of Human Rights blocked the | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
deportation to Jordan in January, saying that whilst they were | :02:42. | :02:50. | |
satisfied that the cleric would be treated well, that they could not | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
see evidence of him not having tortured used against him in Jordan. | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
Ministers believe that a deadline passed o on Monday night. On | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Tuesday, the Home Secretary, May May, told the Commons, she had | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
received guarantees from Jordan that Abu Qatada would face a fair | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
trial and he could be deported. Abu Qatada was arrested by the police | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
and held in custody. On Tuesday, the European Court of Human Rights | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
said they had recieved a fresh appeal who, argued that the | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
deadline was a day later. A panel of five judges are to decide if the | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
case goes to the court's Grand Chamber, causing delay and the | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
prospect of Abu Qatada being released in the meantime. The 47 | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
countries signed up to the court meeting in Brighton are to discuss | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
reforms as to whether there should be fewer appeals. Sir Nicolas | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
Bratza, however, warned of the times that no magic wand would | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
emerge. The Home Secretary has been summoned to the Commons to answer | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
an urgent question on the issue. This farce has serious consequences. | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
Additional delays, a risk that Abu Qatada is out on bail and a risk he | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
could sue the Government. So did the Home Office get assurances from | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
the European Court of Human Rights that the deadline was Monday night? | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
If so, will they publish them, if not, why not? Why did they not pick | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
up the phone to sort it out? The Home Office was told by a | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
journalist on Monday, nearly 24 hours before Abu Qatada was | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
arrested, that the European Court officials were saying that the | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
deadline was Tuesday. Did they do anything about it? I hope that she | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
is right, but at best there is uncertainty and several lawyers | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
saying that they agree with the European Court. So why take the | :04:45. | :04:54. | |
risk? What was the harm in waiting until Wednesday? Why create a legal | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
loophole for Abu Qatada's lawyers to create. | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
We have been clear that the process of deporting Abu Qatada is likely | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
to take many months. It should not come as a surprise to anybody that | :05:06. | :05:15. | |
Abu Qatada has intended to apply delaying tactics. | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
I repeat, that it should hardly come as a surprise to anybody... | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
That Abu Qatada has chosen to use delaying tactics. Afterall, he has | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
been doing this since 2001. Well, that is Theresa May coming | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
under fire then from the opposition benches and Yvette Cooper. I am | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
joined by Clive Coleman. Can you clear up for us, once and for all, | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
has Theresa May and the Home Office got the date wrong? Well, I've been | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
speaking to a number of lawyers this morning. They would say yes | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
she has. If you look at the wording of | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
article 47, when it says is that you start counting from the date | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
that the judgment is given. Now that was give no-one the Abu Qatada | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
case, the chamber judgment was given on the 17th of January. You | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
then count forward three months. Now going on that basis. So you | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
start from the next day, as it were if you start from the next day, | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
then that takes you to the Tuesday night, the 17th. | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
So on that basis, the Government has got it wrong. Now, there is | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
some case law on this. In relation to time limits for, not for | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
applications in the Abu Qatada-type situation, but for applications to | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
the court, for the court to hear a case. It is a six-month time limit, | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
but there are two cases that could not be clearer, but as I say, you | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
start counting the next day and count forward for three months. So | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
on the basis of the wording of Article 47 and on the basis of the | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
case law, although on a different time limit, but a time limit in | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
relation to getting in an application to the European Court | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
of Human Rights, on that basis, the Government seems to have it wrong. | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
If that is the case, if it is shown to be the case, what is the | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
likelihood of Abu Qatada released on bail while the legal process | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
takes its course? I was in court to hear the bail hearing. What the | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
judge was clear about, was that he said that he was to remand Abu | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
Qatada in custody, as there seemed to be a fast-track, a potential for | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
a really fast-track way of getting this all done and dusted. By this | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
is under deportation through the UK courts. Now if Abu Qatada's | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
application is successful, if he is successful in getting a full Grand | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
Chamber hearing. That would be in front of 17 judges of the European | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Court of Human Rights. Then that could drag on. The judge was clear, | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
if within a couple of weeks it looks like it will drag on, that he | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
comes back to the court, that he will then consider the issue of | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
bail. When he was previously looking at the case, when a long | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
period was stretching ahead, he granted bail. | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
Thank you very much. Andrew? This is going to develop as | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
the day goes on. The Home Secretary is still answering questions in the | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
Commons. That could be a long session it is all beginning to | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
unravel. Let's see if we can pick where we are going. This is a | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
complicated legal case. If the studio I am joined by Diana Johnson. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
In the Oxford studio, there is Michael Pinto-Duschinsky. He | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
recently resigned by the body set up by the coalition to examine our | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
relationship with the European Court of Human Rights and of course | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
David Laws is with us. David Laws, if Theresa May got the dates wrong | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
if she was out by a crucial 24 hours, is her job on the line? | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
is frustrating, but the first thing we need to find out is whether or | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
not the ECH, whether our approach is right or the Home Office. We | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
also do not know, frankly, in terms of advice that the Home Office gave | :09:11. | :09:19. | |
to the Home Secretary, whether it was informed by the ECHR. Was it a | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
consequence of the mistake made there. So until there is clarity it | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
is difficult to be sure, but I think when this came out it came | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
out in your report, that it is inconceivable, that this individual, | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
seeking to prolong and delay this for years and years, would not have | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
appealed any way. Although I find this, I am sure that the Home | :09:41. | :09:50. | |
Secretary finds it frustrating, and -- but I'm not sure we would have | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
gone through this type of a pale process. | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
She, May May, may have been guided by Home Office opinion on this, but | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
not by Strasbourg itself, so, I say again, if she has the crucial dates | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
wrong, that opens the British Government, or opens Abu Qatada to | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
being released on bail again, opens legal action by him against the | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
British Government and could delay matters yet further, it her job on | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
the line? No, I don't think it is. She has done a great job of getting | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
us where we are now. Secondly, I think it unlikely that the even if | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
there has been an error, that the Home Secretary herself is | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
responsible. I suspect she has had clear advice, either from officials | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
or possibly from her officials because of the advice given by the | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
ECHR. A third point is that I am not sure that this is material to | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
the fact that there would have been an appeal. So I think that her | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
position is clear, but the Government and the Home Secretary | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
will be furious about this and we have to get to the bottom of this. | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
Let me come to Diana Johnson. In your view has the Home Secretary | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
got the date right or wrong? Well, we have to look at what the ECHR | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
says when they meet, but it does seem there is confusion over the | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
date it seems that there, or it would have beenwiseer to wait to | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
ensure if there was a risk if there was an additional day to lodge | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
appeal, that was allowed to pass and then the action was taken. By | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
doing what the Home Secretary has done, she has opened herself up to | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
a claim of wrongful arrest, first of all, and possibly compensation | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
claims and also, when the Home Secretary, when I heard her | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
statement before I left the house, was one issue was that the hearing | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
on Tuesday afternoon, that they, Abu Qatada, appealed later on that | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
evening it seems to me should should have waited until the next | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
day. Do you mean if she was advised, | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
that she was entitled to press ahead, she would have been | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
irresponsible to have left it, then she could have discovered an appeal | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
comes in after that. It depends on how much credence you | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
give to the record of that department. | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
If you are a Home Office Minister you question everything that comes | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
before you. You ask if you are sure. If you are the Home Secretary, on a | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
case such of this with the national importance you definitely ask that | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
question. Let's bring in Michael Pinto- | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
Duschinsky. He is waiting in Oxford. I want to broaden this out to what | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
is going out in Brighton, also with the wider reforms that are meant to | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
be afoot there, but can you bring clarity to the issue of when the | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
clock starts to tick for the time limit within which someone can make | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
an appeal against a Strasbourg judgment? Well, I certainly can't. | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
I am pleased these days that I am not a lawyer, but I do think it is | :13:10. | :13:18. | |
a bit much for Mrs Johnson to attack Theresa May because for | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
years and years every Home Secretary has had to rely on | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
officials for different judgments. You will recall that Charles Clarke | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
had to resign as there were hundreds of prisoners, foreign | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
prisoners who should have been deported when their sentences in | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
jail came up and they were not to be found. | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
I think that many of them have not been found still. So I think that | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
one needs a bit of realism and humility about what goes on in the | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
job of a Home Secretary and indeed if Mrs Johnson ever becomes a Home | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
Secretary, herself, then she will find factly -- exactly the same | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
thing. There is an underlying problem of getting the Home Office | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
working better as a department and that is a long-standing and | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
important problem, but I do not think that this is something that | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
could be blamed in this case on Theresa May. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Let me ask you the broader issue, you know that the justice ministers | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
from across the members of the European Council are meeting in | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
Brighton. The British have a reform agenda. They have been pushing hard | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
in the six months in the chair. They hope to get the 47 to sign up | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
to it in Brighton this week, will they succeed in your view, fanned | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
so, will the reforms make a difference? I am sure that they | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
will succeed in getting a document signed up. | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
There has been a lot of very good work, I may say, on this for all | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
sides. But I don't think that it is going | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
to resolve the underlying issue, which is where does the buck stop? | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
Who has the final authority on deciding cases that come under the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
European Convention on Human Rights? And the document says | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
clearly, that final authority rests with Strasbourg. So whatever | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
cosmetic concessions are made, will really not mean very much. | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
So, David Laws, whatever is decided in Brighton, my sung that the | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
Government's proposals have been watered down, that nothing will | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
change in Brighton to stop someone like Abu Qatada Maying the system | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
like a fiddle since 2001 and the European Court coming up with a | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
number of rulings that stop us from deporting him? Firstly, Michael is | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
gloomy about the outcomes it is possible. | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
Supposing so, let's be optimistic, the British Government gets | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
everything that it wants, all 47 sign up to this, what difference | :16:00. | :16:10. | |
:16:10. | :16:17. | ||
In his case I am not sure you would. There needs to be an understanding | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
in ECHR by the type of people who were appointed to it, people with | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
more experience rather than academics, about the sensitivities | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
there are in countries in Europe that international law means not | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
only protecting the rights of people like this individual but | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
also the right of everybody else to be defended against people of his | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
alleged nature. The only other alternative to making these types | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
of change would be for us to pack up, leave ECHR, and give an open | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
invitation to the countries we do know do not respect law in their | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
own states, like Russia and Turkey, to leave as well. Although this | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
case is damn frustrating and I feel as angry that this has gone on as | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
anybody else, or the European Court of Human Rights is doing is trying | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
to ask the UK to ensure that there are protections to make sure this | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
man is not tortured when he goes to Jordan. Is that unreasonable to | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
ask? I do not think it is but we won these processes to work quickly | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
in the future. Many British people may think it is unreasonable. Our | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
own Supreme Court, with some of the best qualified judges in the | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
democratic world, has ruled this man should be sent back. So | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
couldn't a reform take place where by the European Court says if this | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
has been heard by a properly constituted, fully qualified courts | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
of Human Rights, using the convention as its set of yardsticks, | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
why doesn't need to go to Strasbourg? That is one of the | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
issues that could be looked at in the conference in terms of if in | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
the domestic courts they have had regard to the case of the European | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
Court, they could say you have dealt with that so that is one of | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
the suggestions. The problem with the Brighton conference is the | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
proposals on the agenda are watered down. I am not sure what will come | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
out of that conference but we would like to see reform, of course. We | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
don't want to see this again. could avoid the number of cases | :18:20. | :18:30. | |
:18:30. | :18:34. | ||
What would you like to see be done that would stop a case like Abu | :18:34. | :18:42. | |
Qatada or dominating our judicial process and no politics since 2001? | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
I think any individual case like Abu Qatada has to be considered | :18:47. | :18:57. | |
very carefully. I do not criticise the Strasbourg judges on this, I | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
think they have been very careful and have come to what seemed to me | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
to be good judgment. So I don't want anybody to be tortured, or any | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
risk of torture. The problem comes with much broader policy decisions | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
such as should prisoners in general have the right to vote? And on | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
those are essentially political decisions, they should be taken by | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
our House of Commons, not by judges in Strasbourg. So I think we ought | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
to move to a system where the House of Commons has, in exceptional | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
cases, it right to override the Strasbourg court on matters that | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
deal essentially with political interpretations. Thank you for | :19:47. | :19:57. | |
joining us from Oxford. And to you. Ken Clarke said today that allowing | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Parliament to overrule a Strasbourg ruling would take us back to Tudor | :20:00. | :20:10. | |
:20:10. | :20:11. | ||
times. Was that a rather crushing remark? Was Theresa May let down by | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
civil servants at the Home Office over the deadline? Some | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
Conservative MPs claimed she was an even before the current funerary | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
there was growing discontent on the back benches that the pair of civil | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
servant in the government. A frustration articulated in Prime | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
Minister's Questions yesterday. recently asked the Prime Minister | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
to what extent he believed the Whitehall machine, the Sir Humphrey | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
factor, was frustrating reform stop he assured us it was not. According | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
to the Financial Times in Malaysia last week the PM said as Prime | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
Minister I can take you yes, Minister is true-to-life. Can the | :20:46. | :20:55. | |
Prime Minister tell us what has happened to change his mind? There | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
are few occasions where I think the Honourable Gentleman does need a | :20:59. | :21:08. | |
bit of a sense of humour. Douglas Carswell, can we get a reaction | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
about what has happened with Abu Qatada? Do you think Theresa May | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
has been let down by civil servants? Within 24 hours of me | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
making my comment, the Carry On Sir Humphrey episode in the latest | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
shenanigans rather demonstrates part of the problem. If Sir | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
Humphrey cannot even get the legal paperwork in on time and read a | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
Callender properly what chance is there of Sir Humphrey being able to | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
dig us out of this human rights mess? Again and again we find | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
reforming administration that came to office with a coalition | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
agreement that was meant to mean real change has been thwarted by | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
the institutional inertia of the Whitehall mandarins. Are you not | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
blaming too much civil servants? It is clear you think the officials | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
made the mistake, we have been discussing whether Theresa May | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
should have checked on such a big issue, although close to her on the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
political basis, that they had the dates right? I am not exonerating | :22:08. | :22:16. | |
ministers. I think this is damning criticism of the ministers, I am | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
not exonerating them. I do not want to comment too much on the Abu | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
Qatada case but again and again and again in flagship Whitehall | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
departments we see promises ministers made to bring about | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
fundamental change and they are not delivering on it. An example - the | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
government came to office promising to cut the deficit. It is not only | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
spending more money in five years and borrowing more than Gordon | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
Brown did in 13, it is not only going -- even going to meet | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Alistair Darling's target. It suggests to me Sir Humphrey is | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
running the show and he never wants to cut his budget. You have a | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
chance to respond to that. annual deficit 25% smaller when the | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
government -- than the figure we inherited from Alistair Darling. | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
But the government will have to borrow more over the course of the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
parliament. The borrowing projections are the end of last | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
year, they were revised upwards from initial ones because the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
European economy is softer and therefore our growth outlook is | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
different. We cannot blame civil servants for that. It is also | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
blaming ministers. If you look at what they can be held to account | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
for including ministers, in other words, how much we are spending in | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the public sector, the public sector has met all the targets the | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
government met for cuts in public spending over the last two years. | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
The Bonfire of the quangos seems to have gone out. I am told by a | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
special adviser in the Treasury in the 1990s as civil servants would | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
perennially suggest a caravan Tax, granny tax and these things had | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
been slipped through because ministers are being run by the | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
departments, not dead -- not running their departments. So what | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
is the solution? There is our land mines the staff would have | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
predicted, are you saying more political appointments? Let's not | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
replicate the mistakes of Tony Blair. That sounds like what you | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
want though. I would like ministers to be able to appoint a chief of | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
staff. If they could do that, they could get a grip in a way they have | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
not always been able to. I would like to see select committee | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
chairman being held to account -- holding to account the Sir | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
Humphreys. I would like them to appeal for their money and their | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
budget before they get it. You have been accused of being a right wing | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
agitator, unhelpful to the Prime Minister, what do you say to that? | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
I do nothing you can dismiss me as a typical right window. I want | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
radical change in this country and one of the reasons I was excited | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
about the coalition was because I believed it was a historic | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
opportunity to merge traditional free-market Toryism with a | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
political radicalism we find that the Lib Dems. But if you look at | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
what the government is doing in health, education, the welfare | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
system, there is no evidence that civil servants have held up plans. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
We have been criticised for the speed of reform in health and | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
education and welfare. The idea this has been blocked is not true. | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
In education and welfare and policing, we are seeing genuine | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
reforms. But in so many other departments we're not getting the | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
change we need. I have to stop you there. Have you got a sense of | :25:49. | :25:58. | |
humour? I hope so. I think I do. Lovely. Thank you. Now, the first | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
of our series of interviews with the seven candidates who hope to | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
fill Boris Johnson's shoes as London Mayor, one of them is Boris | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
Johnson, in fact. In a moment I will be speaking to the Green Party | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
candidate for the job, Jenny Jones. She is hoping to make a | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
breakthrough in London with policies including She'd also like | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
to see a 20mph speed limit across much of the capital and she wants | :26:19. | :26:29. | |
:26:29. | :26:33. | ||
to close London City airport to cut But her manifesto goes beyond | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
natural green issues and includes pledges to try to introduce a | :26:36. | :26:46. | |
:26:46. | :26:48. | ||
higher minimum wage and to create 150,000 apprentices. The party | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
supports weekly bin collections but would like to see London sending | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
nothing to landfil by 2030. When will all probably be gone. -- we | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
will. The Greens have made some notable advances in recent years, | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
including their first MP, and Jones has set her sights on overtaking | :27:06. | :27:16. | |
:27:16. | :27:16. | ||
the Lib Dems to come third on May 3. You have been overtaken by you kick | :27:17. | :27:26. | |
:27:27. | :27:36. | ||
on the pulse. What went wrong? What is your best poll recently? | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
Previous polls have put us on 4% and the Lib Dems on 6%. We think we | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
can do better. Green votes tend to come out late, I have no idea why, | :27:45. | :27:53. | |
they just don't register early. one Green voters to give their | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
second preferences to Ken Livingstone. If you feel like that | :27:58. | :28:07. | |
why wouldn't you just give Ken your first vote? Because we do not think | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
he is the best candidate, we think that is a green who can take London | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
forward in a sustainable way. were his former deputy. He | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
described your endorsement. As a key building block to a victory. -- | :28:23. | :28:32. | |
endorsement point. Miracles happen. When, I've never seen one. Read our | :28:32. | :28:39. | |
manifesto if you have not already. I have even written your name in it. | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
You signed it for me? What about me? Sorry, I did not know you were | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
here. I appreciate that. But why are you so enthusiastic about Ken? | :28:52. | :29:02. | |
We have had this row about his tax returns after talking about rich | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
people and he always moans about the privatisation of the NHS and we | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
discover this morning he uses private health care. Why are you | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
keen for him to win? I am not going to justified Ken Livingstone. | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
You're telling people to vote for him. I am suggesting is deport the | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
Greens to make an impact, there are three ways to do it... You can vote | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
for me as Meyer because that's a signal at everybody about the | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
support we have, you can vote for assembly members having his strong | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
green pack of -- assembly members, having a strong pack of Green | :29:39. | :29:49. | |
members is a good way. And thirdly, if it has to be, go for Ken, we | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
can't work with Boris. What about the congestion charge? Far too many | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
people are paying it. How much would you put it up? We would put | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
the standard congestion charge up to �15. And for gas-guzzlers we | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
would make it �40. �40 a day?! With government ministers have to pay | :30:14. | :30:24. | |
:30:24. | :30:25. | ||
that? Hopefully. But they would be Boris Johnson says that the | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
transport plans have an honesty. I think that is his idea of irony. | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
You want every new London home to have space to grow food, whether it | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
is a garden, balcony, would a window box do? It probably would. | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
And just to say, we have been joined by viewers in Scotland, | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
they've been watching First Minister's Questions live from | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
Holyrood. Now we are in London be, we with interviewing the Green | :30:57. | :31:04. | |
Party candidate, Jenny yons. You were explaining, you would be | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
satisfied if we had a window box? There is a need in lots of people | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
to grow things. There is a shortage of allotments? | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
Absolutely. We should close city airport and do something useful | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
with it. That is not going to happen? Why not? It is a key link | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
for the City of London for short- hall flights to Amsterdam, | :31:31. | :31:38. | |
Copenhagen, Stoke home... We should start to understand that short-hall | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
flights have to be overtaken by rail travel N other parts of Europe, | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
they are expanding the intake from around the railways. | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
That is because Charles De Gaulle has already built six runways, they | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
have done their expansion! We live with a finite amount of resources. | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
If there is growth in one area, there is recession in another. We | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
are greedy. We must learn how to adapt and to survive. | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
I would think it is tough, which is why some think you are not only | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
unlikely to win, but you could lose seats in the assembly, but it is | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
tough on the economic climate and these campaigning issues? Well, if | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
I can tell you about one policy. Insulating homes. If we do 1 | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
million in the next four years we lower people's energy bills, that | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
is good for them. We reduce the car emissions. We reduce the need for | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
energy companies to invest in more energy, you know, infrastructure. | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
That is why we have the Green Deal. If only it went far enough. It does | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
and it will be. You can have a win, win, win | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
situation on the environment and on the economy! Thank you very much, | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Jenny Jones, I will see you on Sunday. | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
The debate is going out on BBC One on Sunday night after the news at | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
10.25pm, when we have four of the main London mayoral candidates in | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
the debating area plus others on video tape. Now, a full list of the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
candidates is on your screen now it is available on the BBC News | :33:18. | :33:27. | |
website. Now, the Government is involved in | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
a serious of rebellions, the most serious was the plan to impose VAT | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
on static caravans used for holidays. The Government's majority | :33:37. | :33:45. | |
was reduced to 25 on the issue. Clearly Margaret Beckett was doing | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
the whipping. The Government also won on the so-called pasty tax, but | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
with a considerable rebellion from coalition MPs. Let's give you a | :33:54. | :34:03. | |
flavour of the debate. We have a Cornish coalition moving | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
forward to try and protect the Cornish pasty. The paroles from the | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
Government, I fear, are unfair. They are unworkable, they will be | :34:13. | :34:20. | |
bad for the economy of Cornwall. The current rules mean that many do | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
not know whether they are charged vat sat on hot food as the | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
treatment depends on the shrier's purpose in heating the food. | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
-- supplier. The new rules ensure a level | :34:32. | :34:40. | |
playing food and we are removaling the sent tivity element. | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
proposal on VAT on static caravans will have a serious effect on all | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
of East Yorkshire and Hull, include ing the situation where it could | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
dramatically cut employment in the area. At a time when we are trying | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
to encourage growth and balance the books, this will not help to do | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
either in the situation it will reverse both. | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
It will destroy a purely British success story in the manufacturing | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
industry. 95% of the caravans are made in the UK. We want a proper | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
informed debate and consultation. I have heard the arguments about | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
extending the consultation period. That is a reasonable thing to do. | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
Rather than closing the consultation period on the 4th of | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
May. We are to extend it now to the 18th 6 May. | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
We want people to respond to these consultations, but it is right to | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
address these anomalies. Today, the debate moves back to the | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
region of the so-called granny tax. It is certainly the description | :35:55. | :36:04. | |
:36:05. | :36:12. | ||
that we are using in the media. This is the plan to remove certain | :36:12. | :36:22. | |
areas of help for the elderly. Age UK says, "It is all relatively | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
small beer." Small amounts of money matter a great deal to older people | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
:36:37. | :36:42. | ||
who have not got very much. Small amounts are being cut. So, this is | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
not the poorest. It does not affect the richest. They did not get this | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
tax relief? It affects those if they have their state pension which | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
is about �5,000, plus a private pension of �6,000. They would | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
therefore have a total income of �12,000. Not rich, you have to | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
admit. That is not rich. That is middle? Well... I mean | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
among the pensioners? These are the people, they are Tory voters. | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
Not all of them. They tend to be people who have | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
worked hard, have been putting things aside for pensions, they are | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
good, hard-working people, who have earned a pension and are suddenly | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
penalised by small beer to fund millionaires who have suddenly been | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
given a tax rebate of �40,000. You say that, but that is the | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
debating point. The real thing it has to stpund taking people on very | :37:50. | :38:00. | |
low incomes out of tax all together. That is the real cost. | :38:00. | :38:07. | |
But the fact is that many have a tax rebate of �40,000. | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
They don't. It is true that higher earners benefit, but being a | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
millionaire is a measure of wealth. Being a millionaire does not mean | :38:17. | :38:27. | |
:38:27. | :38:33. | ||
you earn �1 million a year. However, that is a large amount, a | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
large some of money that is benefiting the rich. The people who | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
are small beer, losing small beer, it is a small amount that matters | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
to them. The rising cost of fuel, the rise in travel, the rise in the | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
cost of food. All of these are really hitting old people hard. | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
But what they have not been hit by and some would say, those in the | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
middle, they have been shielded, relatively so from austerity, as | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
they get the winter fuel payments, they are not means tested. The | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
state pension is going up by �5. Bus passes are still free. Travel | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
is free. First of all, �140 a week is not | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
great wealth. So let's not say that they are sitting pretty. | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
No, I'm not saying that, but they have been shielded from austerity? | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
Well, they are being shielded from inflation. | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
The �5 rise is in order to let the pensioner keep up with inflation. | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
Old people are hit by inflation, they are hit by VAT. | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
They spend their money because they have nothing else to spare it is a | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
very good case. You have made a correct point. I | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
come now to David Laws. We understand you had to finances, you | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
are committed to the idea of taking people out of tax. Especially those | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
at the lower end. We know it cost as lot of money to do so, but why | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
would you get some of this money from the sort of pensioners that | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Joan Bakewell is talking about, they are on modest incomes. They | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
are not rich, as she says. They have worked hard all of their lives. | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
They are enjoying a modest affluence with the emphasis on the | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
word modest, rather than affluence. Why take the money from them? | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
accept this is something that we would rather not be doing, but what | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
we are trying to do in in order to deliver austerity and get the | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
budget on balance, is to ensure that those on the lowest incomes | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
make a contribution. It has been said that so far the pensioners | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
have been the one group we have not asked to make a contribution to | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
dealing with the austerity. Many may say and you should not. | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
That these people have give an lifetime of service to this country. | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
They have worked hard. They have paid their taxes. They have ended | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
up with pensions that are probably worth a lot less than they thought. | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
Annuities have been hammered. Private pension schemes are no | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
longer what they are. There are incredibly tough times | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
for the public finances. We took the decision to go for the full | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
uprating the state pension. But that is to keep apay -- apace | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
with inflation. It is, but let's have a look for | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
those people in employment what is happening. They are not getting | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
inflation increase. They are getting significant cuts in the | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
last few years of their real earnings. | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
But that is not the comparison to make. What about the people earning | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
more than �1 million who, are being treated out of all proportion | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
generously? What about their contribution? Let me come back on | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
that. Firstly for pensioners who are affluent or going to be so, | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
were raising something like �3.5 billion by restricting the pension | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
tax relief that goes to the highest people in the country. You were | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
wrong in the Budget to say that the money was funding the tax cut for | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
wealthy people. We have funded that five times over with other tax | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
increases on wealthy people. In a world of dodgy statistics, you | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
know that is in the premiere division of dodgy statistics. | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
I tell you why. You are saying that the cut from 50 to 45 pence will | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
cost the Treasury �100 million. That is the best estimate that the | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
Government has got to make that decision. | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
I don't know anyone who believes it. I don't want to get technical, but | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
the indicator you have picked is the most generous to show you don't | :42:45. | :42:53. | |
lose money? The Office for Budget Responsibility, he looked at this. | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
He put out a report. He said that the revenue estimate is as likely | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
to be in the opposite direction. Let me ask you the broader question. | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
The day after the bulgt, you described George Osbourne as, "A | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
grand strategist." Four weeks on, if that is what a grand strategist | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
looks like, what does a useless strategist look like? Well, you | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
return Gordon Brown, his Budgets would get great reception, then | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
they unravelled over time. I think when we look back on the Budget, in | :43:33. | :43:40. | |
three, six, nine months or a year's time, will see that the Chancellor | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
has taken really important correct economic decisions to give us a | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
competitive tax regime to take people on low incomes out of tax. | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
The big decisions were the right ones. | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
What was the last Budget? You can include all of Gordon Brown's in | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
this. What was the last Budget, unravelling four weeks after it was | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
unveiled? One of Gordon Brown's when he got the 10 pence tax rate. | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
There was a riot over that, but let's get this into perspective. | :44:08. | :44:17. | |
That is across the piste, the pasty piste! -- piste! We have looked at | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
the decisions that the Chancellor has taken and realised that this is | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
a good Budget, that has sent the message that Britain is open once | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
again for business. The nonsense about pasties, charitable donations | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
and all of the other bits and pieces we are voting on... Please, | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
everyone over 65 condemns the Budget. | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
Of course they don't like it, but the Government is having to do | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
tough things and everybody in society, everybody single group has | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
to contribute to this. You have to come back and see us. | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
This could be unravelling in two months' time it could be the | :44:53. | :45:00. | |
Olympics of unravelling! Stop being gloomy about this, Andrew. | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
Joan Bakewell, thank you very much. Now, the Government's troubles have | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
done nothing to improve the Liberal Democrats ratings. In some polls | :45:08. | :45:17. | |
they are behind UKIP. So how bad can it be for them? As demonstrated | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
by the website, the Lib Dem who is point, Lib Dems love pointing. They | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
also love local governments that involves lots of pointing, but does | :45:27. | :45:35. | |
local government love them? Right now across the UK they have about | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
3,147 councillors and outright control of 13 local authorities, | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
but last year, they lost 748 councillors and control of nine | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
councils. See that they hope will not be repeated this year in Essex. | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
Like this place was for the Normans, kolchest ser a bit of a Lib Dem | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
stronghold. They are the largest party on the local council. They | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
have a firm grip on the Westminster parliamentary seat. If they fail | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
here it is bad news. Benjamin Ramm says that bad is a good way of | :46:08. | :46:18. | |
:46:18. | :46:19. | ||
describing the mood among the Those activist are committed, | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
resilient, but it is different when you're in coalition with a party | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
night the Conservatives who, in so many social and economic issues | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
that the Lib Dems have put themselves against while | :46:34. | :46:41. | |
campaigning. The Lib Dems are not putting up full slate in municipal | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
elections, this is problematic for the party. It is in part caused by | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
the fact there are not the activists pushing for greater | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
representation. On a cold Tuesday evening in February it is hard to | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
motivate yourself to go out with a yellow rosette. The Poles are | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
depressing, too. Some have the party on, or close to single | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
figures, another put them on level pegging with UKIP. It is not clear | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
how that will translate on the ground in places like Colchester. | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
Although it is a coalition I feel the Tories are the stronger part of | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
it. What they have been doing lately has not gone down well. I | :47:21. | :47:30. | |
feel some of that disillusionment might rub off towards the Lib Dems. | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
They go along with the Conservatives in lots of issues. So | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
people don't trust them, I don't think. Well that feed down to | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
politics at the council level? think so. The it is why you will | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
see Lib-Dems constantly pointing out popular policies based a are | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
there idea. Like the rise in the income tax threshold. It is an | :47:55. | :48:03. | |
effort to avoid another set of glum results in the local elections. | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
Well, David Laws is still with me... Let's pick up on another point | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
there where they say they are not fielding a full slate so. In some | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
areas we are targeting our resources which is something all | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
parties do. It is unusual for a party not have a full slate of | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
candidates, particularly for the Liberal Democrats. In the last | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
Parliament and probably in these elections there are many places the | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
Conservatives do not necessarily have a full slate. The Labour Party | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
in the last Parliament often did not contest seats. In my area, | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
Somerset, I would say sometimes three quarters of seats do not have | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
a Labour candidate in them. Last year the Lib Dems had what Nick | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
Clegg described as a very bad election. The polls have not | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
changed much since then. So what are your expectations? It will | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
inevitably be tough. Worse than last year? I am not going to make | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
forecasts on this programme for a number of weeks out. There are | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
signs things are looking better than last year but it is too early | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
to make definitive judgments. We all knew when we went into a | :49:16. | :49:24. | |
coalition government that things would be difficult, that poll | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
ratings would go down and inevitably that filters through to | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
local elections even though those should really be about local issues. | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
But that is the problem. You're not getting any message through locally | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
are either. Last year the Lib Dems lost every seat contested in | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
Manchester, the best performance was the Cotswolds, does that mean | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
Lib-Dems are going to end up being a party of the rural south? I don't | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
think so. If you look that -- back at many by-elections since the | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
election last year they have had a different pattern. In Somerset we | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
gain seats of the Somerset -- the Conservative Party. In the North it | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
has been more difficult because Labour has traditionally had a | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
greater strength there. They were very unpopular at the end of the | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
last government, they are up in the opinion polls significantly since | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
the last election. Of course that will be difficult for people at a | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
local level. My frustration is that in many of those areas we have had | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
a Lib Dem councillors do a great job after years of complacent | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
Labour administration and I think people need to make sure they vote | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
in local elections on local issues in order to get the right decisions | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
locally. But if they don't and if they punish the party like they did | :50:44. | :50:52. | |
last year, what will happen? All happened to the party if locally | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
York-based is diminished ever further, that is what the party was | :50:56. | :51:04. | |
about. We will continue to fight locally and on a local record, or | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
to highlight problems in particular areas. At a national level we have | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
always known what we were doing was difficult, was the right thing, but | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
that would we were -- but that we would be judged over a five-year | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
period. We will be judged and are happy to be at a national level in | :51:23. | :51:30. | |
The National polls over five years. If we do live on the economy on the | :51:30. | :51:38. | |
four pledges then my hopes and expectations for 2015 in the | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
general election are not at a 10% opinion rating that was seen to | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
date. Are you happy going into that election taking a �10 billion slice | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
to the welfare budget? We are happy to going on spending plans will be | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
agreed by the coalition as a whole. But there was a Budget announcement. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
George Osborne did not say there would be a certain amount of | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
welfare cuts, he said if the next spending review looked like this | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
one, or if we protected particular areas, we would have to make bigger | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
welfare cuts. You would be happy to go along with that, to say we have | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
to make more cuts and it could mean something like �10 billion worth of | :52:23. | :52:32. | |
cuts to the welfare budget? We are not picking out precisely where we | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
need to make savings in public spending. We are saying last year | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
Danny Alexander and George Osborne announced the new spending totals | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
to take us be on the next election, we are committed to those of the | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
government. When we have the next spending review we will set out how | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
we deliver the plans. What happened to the policy of differentiation? | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
We are in a coalition working well together but of course occasionally | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
issues of differentiation come up where the Conservative Party will | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
have a strong view on one area, where we will. Most of those get | :53:08. | :53:17. | |
resolved behind the scenes. Would you agree with that briefing? The | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
leaking the Lib Dems have been blamed for? Whether they are blamed | :53:22. | :53:31. | |
on not, it does not mean we are responsible for the briefing. Both | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
parties should be free to breed in a coalition but it is also | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
important some of the legitimate debate and attempts to | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
differentiate in particular policy areas should not lead to a chaotic | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
process which gives the impression to people that the coalition cannot | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
govern effectively together. I pick a competition of ideas in the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
coalition should be about how we deliver the proposals and policy | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
ambitions we have already agreed on, in other words, they should be | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
about how we go forward, not about different destinations. When do you | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
expect to come back into the government? I have no idea whether | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
or it will have other responsibilities. I am happy to be | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
a backbench support of the government, I think the Prime | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
Minister and Deputy Prime Minister are doing a good job, the coalition | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
will deliver on its bold ambitions, it is not for me to speculate on | :54:22. | :54:32. | |
:54:32. | :54:36. | ||
other issues. We moved to the big Should Parliament's Clock Tower, | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
which most of us would know as Big Ben, be renamed after the Queen to | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
mark her Diamond Jubilee? That's what one Tory MP is calling for and | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
Tobias Ellwood's campaign has received cross party support from | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
MPs. But what's the feeling on the streets of Westminster? We've sent | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
Susana Mendonsa out to see what people think. That is the Victoria | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
Tower, the only tower at Westminster named after a monarch, | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
Queen Victoria, for her yuk -- for her years of service. Some think | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
Queen Elizabeth the second should receive the same on and they have | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
their eyes on the Big Ben, or the clock tower as it is officially | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
known. But should it become the Elizabeth Tower? It really ought to | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
stay as Big Ben and they should name something else after the Queen. | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
It is so well-known I don't think you can change it after all these | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
years. It assure name is the clock tower. We all know it as Big Ben. | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
It is iconic to London. You can't change it. It should not be renamed. | :55:30. | :55:36. | |
It is Big Ben for a good reason. is not its real name. I know but it | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
is the bell inside it. It is what it is known as. You can't remain | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
something so famous. It is a lovely idea. Would you still call it Big | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
Ben? Possibly but I think that our's name is for her, she has been | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
a wonderful Queen. The clock tower is named after the bell but I don't | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
mind them changing the name of the tower to celebrate the jubilee. | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
Fantastic idea. Would you still call it Big Ben? Yes. If they | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
renamed it what would you call it? I would not rename it. I would | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
still call it Big Ben. They were asked us where is the Elizabeth | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
Tower? We would say there and they would say but that's Big Ben. They | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
would be an argument. A group of MPs want to it rename it the | :56:23. | :56:33. | |
:56:33. | :56:34. | ||
Elizabeth Tower. Stupid idea! joined now by Kate Hoey MP who is | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
one of the signaturees of this early day motion to change the name | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
of the Clock Tower. So people will just still call it Big Ben, when | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
they? Of course because they don't call it the clock tower, or the St | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
Stephen's Tower which some people think it is. This is about formally, | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
constitutionally changing it to the Elizabeth Tower so it is opposite | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
the Victoria Tower over the House of Lords because it is the diamond | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
jubilee and it would be a celebration of the Queen's rain. | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
But everyone would know it as Big Ben because Big Ben is the clock | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
and we all call it that. Is it worth changing the name? It is no | :57:09. | :57:16. | |
big deal. But it is a nice bit for the end of the programme and I | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
think it would be a nice gesture. There is a lot of party support for | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
it but the person who will decide it is Her Majesty the Queen. So you | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
think it will happen? I don't know how these things happen. If | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
somebody somewhere so is it is a good idea behind the scenes, it | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
could happen, but there is big support for it. But it will still | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
be Big Ben. What about people who say we have the Victoria Tower, | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
parliamentary democracy, we should not have the unelected head of | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
state, some might say, being part of the Houses of Parliament. Nobody | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
said that on your programme. That is not an issue. We are royalist | :57:54. | :58:04. | |
I have always been a great royalist. The idea of having an ex-prime | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
minister like Tony Blair as President, or something like that, | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
it is not sensible. There was a panel on 26th March saying we | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
should rename St Stephen's Tower as the suffragette power, or Big Ben, | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
as in Tony Benn. Did you support that? I did not. I don't know even | :58:25. | :58:34. | |
put that up. Two Towers, 1 Victoria, one Elizabeth. Big Ben still there. | :58:34. | :58:42. | |
What do you think? A nice bit of symmetry. That's it. Thanks to our | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
guests. I am back tonight with Alan Johnson, the man with the shirt, | :58:47. | :58:51. |