20/04/2012 Daily Politics


20/04/2012

Andrew is joined by Lord Oakeshott to discuss the latest coalition row on House of Lords reform. Plus the latest developments on Abu Qatada.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:42.:00:46.

It's bad news for the Prime Minister, but even worse for Nick

:00:46.:00:49.

Clegg! Tory backbenchers are warning David Cameron that there

:00:49.:00:53.

will be a rebellion "off the scale", if he presses ahead with the Deputy

:00:53.:00:56.

Prime Minister's pet project, House of Lords reform. Could this be the

:00:56.:01:01.

row that breaks the coalition? Troublesome Lib Dem peer Matthew

:01:01.:01:04.

Oakeshott joins us. And, as Theresa May endures that

:01:04.:01:07.

ritual of British politics, the Home Secretary getting a thoroughly

:01:07.:01:11.

good kicking, we ask where the Abu Qatada debacle leaves the Home

:01:11.:01:18.

Secretary? And, it was billed as a decisive

:01:18.:01:21.

moment in the UK's efforts to reform the European Court of Human

:01:21.:01:26.

Rights. But, has the Brighton Declaration lived up to the hype?

:01:26.:01:30.

Ken Clarke thinks so. The President of the Court, who's also British,

:01:30.:01:33.

not so much. We'll ask Tory MEP Martin Callanan,

:01:33.:01:36.

and former Lord Chancellor, Charlie Falconer.

:01:36.:01:40.

And, it's an election frenzy on the Daily Politics today. We'll hear

:01:40.:01:44.

what's happening in Wales. Meet the Uruguayan immigrant

:01:44.:01:47.

standing as the BNP's candidate for London Mayor.

:01:47.:01:50.

And, talk to a French socialist hoping to be elected as the member

:01:50.:02:00.
:02:00.:02:02.

All that in the next cosmopolitan, sophisticated and truly

:02:02.:02:10.

international hour of public service broadcasting.

:02:10.:02:13.

And, alongside me throughout, Agnes Poirier, UK editor of French news

:02:13.:02:18.

magazine, Marianne. And, rather less exotically, it has

:02:18.:02:24.

to be said, Matt Chorley from the Independent on Sunday.

:02:24.:02:28.

Welcome. So, it's not a great morning for

:02:28.:02:31.

anyone with Prime Minister in their title. For David Cameron, the

:02:31.:02:34.

headlines about Theresa May and her troubled relationship with the

:02:34.:02:38.

calendar are bad. The poll that puts Labour a whopping 13% ahead,

:02:38.:02:44.

even worse. And that's before we get to his restive backbenchers,

:02:44.:02:47.

who warned last night that they would not support plans for House

:02:47.:02:53.

of Lords reform. That's where Nick Clegg's headaches begin. With his

:02:53.:02:57.

party desperate for a victory on constitutional reform, to make them

:02:57.:02:59.

feel better about this whole coalition business.

:02:59.:03:02.

So, what's been going on in Westminster overnight? Our

:03:02.:03:09.

political correspondent Carole Walker joins us.

:03:09.:03:12.

4th 4th of the Prime Minister was not at this meeting of Tory

:03:12.:03:16.

backbenchers. From all of the reports, they were in rebellious

:03:16.:03:21.

mood? I think the word will certainly get back to David Cameron.

:03:21.:03:27.

Tory MPs have had a testing time with rows over the pastry tax,

:03:27.:03:33.

granny tax, the possible fuel strike. It seems like they seized

:03:33.:03:38.

on this issue of House of Lords reform to say pretty strongly that

:03:38.:03:44.

they will not put up with it. They feel this is a pet project of the

:03:44.:03:47.

Liberal Democrat Deputy Prime Minister. They are concerned at the

:03:47.:03:52.

idea of a largely elected House of Lords would lead to difficulties

:03:52.:03:57.

and conflict between the two Houses of Parliament. They think any plan

:03:57.:04:02.

to radically reduce the House of Lords will clog up the Houses of

:04:02.:04:07.

Parliament for quite some time and dominate the headlines. Their

:04:07.:04:10.

constituents will be wondering why they are preoccupied with the inner

:04:10.:04:15.

workings of Parliament when they are more concerned about jobs and

:04:15.:04:23.

the economy. So, it is pretty clear there is a huge amount of hostility.

:04:23.:04:27.

There was some surprising guidance from Downing Street, saying those

:04:27.:04:31.

who spoke out against reform were not representative of Tory

:04:31.:04:37.

backbenchers. But there were over 40 who took this line. If they are

:04:38.:04:41.

representative, what does Mr Cameron do? He is in a very

:04:41.:04:48.

difficult position. Because, this issue of House of Lords reform,

:04:48.:04:53.

part of the constitutional reform agenda was part of the price of the

:04:53.:04:57.

Coalition for Nick Clegg. There is no doubt the Prime Minister will

:04:57.:05:03.

have a huge problem in terms of his own party. I have spoken to MPs

:05:03.:05:07.

from a number of different wings of the party and all of them are angry

:05:07.:05:12.

about this on a number of different levels. The key one is this simply

:05:12.:05:16.

do not feel this is the issue that the government should be focusing

:05:16.:05:21.

on and driving through, with all of the battles that will involve, at

:05:21.:05:27.

this current time. So he will have a difficult ride. Quite a few MPs

:05:27.:05:32.

now say that, if it is going to go ahead and there will be reform of

:05:32.:05:36.

the Lords, they should be a referendum. That is something on

:05:36.:05:40.

which you could see rebellious Tory MPs finding common cause with

:05:40.:05:44.

Labour of which could make it even more difficult to get any proposals

:05:44.:05:50.

through. So, there could be trouble ahead. And, who better to ask about

:05:50.:05:52.

it than troublesome Lib Dem peer Matthew Oakeshott. Alongside former

:05:52.:06:02.

Labour Lord Chancellor, Charles Falconer.

:06:02.:06:10.

The Conservative MPs are not up for this? Troublesome. Totally on

:06:10.:06:16.

message. The coalition and Liberal Democrat message. About 40 of them

:06:17.:06:22.

spoke against it. I can tell you plenty of gazetted MPs are in

:06:22.:06:27.

favour. There have been some very good ones on the Joint Commission

:06:27.:06:33.

reported on Monday. You think that this committee meeting of the 1922

:06:33.:06:38.

Committee last night, which every MP who spoke, except one, was

:06:38.:06:45.

against proceeding with reform, as Nick Clegg once. But it doesn't

:06:45.:06:52.

matter? I didn't say that. The important thing is Liberal Democrat

:06:52.:06:57.

MPs are totally united in favour, it is coalition policy. Electing

:06:57.:07:03.

the house of Lords was in all three major parties's manifestos,

:07:03.:07:10.

including yours, Charlie. You made it quite clear you, of the party

:07:10.:07:16.

was in favour of an elected House of Lords and getting rid of the

:07:16.:07:21.

hereditary principle. Those policies were put to the country.

:07:21.:07:28.

The Conservative manifesto, you keep saying this was in the

:07:28.:07:32.

Conservative manifesto and coalition agreement. It isn't. The

:07:32.:07:39.

Tory manifesto says we will work to build a consensus. To replace the

:07:39.:07:48.

current House of Lords. It doesn't say we will reform, but we will

:07:48.:07:57.

work to build a consensus. Clearly, there is no consensus. You have

:07:58.:08:03.

consistently said the coalition agreement... The coalition

:08:03.:08:07.

agreement simply says, we will establish a committee to bring

:08:07.:08:15.

forward proposals. For a wholly or mainly elected upper chamber.

:08:15.:08:22.

Bringing forward proposals. That commits nobody to anything. It does.

:08:22.:08:27.

It is a clear understanding between the two parties that is what we

:08:27.:08:32.

would propose. That is the deal. Your party could save the day, no

:08:32.:08:38.

matter how disillusioned the Tories are, by voting with the Liberal

:08:38.:08:42.

Democrats for a second elected chamber? We could and we would if

:08:42.:08:45.

they were worthwhile proposals. But they're saying everything is

:08:45.:08:49.

wonderful in the current arrangement, except the Lords are

:08:49.:08:55.

not elected. So let us change, but keep anything else, including the

:08:55.:09:00.

primacy of the Commons. A nonsensical idea. Once we are

:09:00.:09:05.

elected, we will assert ourselves against the Commons and there will

:09:05.:09:09.

be gridlock. You can't have an inferior second chamber which is

:09:09.:09:16.

also elected. Get back to the drawing board. A back to the

:09:16.:09:24.

drawing-board. An excuse for never doing anything. Let me say, 800 of

:09:24.:09:29.

us, very complacent dinosaurs, what will you do about the hereditary

:09:29.:09:36.

principle? I don't believe and I see no reason why an elected House

:09:36.:09:43.

of Lords as all three parties are in favour of, should mean there

:09:43.:09:48.

should be a change in the power balance. At the moment, the Commons

:09:48.:09:55.

actually is now had more power by using this financial privilege.

:09:55.:10:00.

We're having some movement away. I think we should stick to the

:10:00.:10:06.

balance there has been. You reject the unanimous conclusion that had

:10:06.:10:13.

Lords Bill, Commons, Tories, Liberal Democrats, off the existing

:10:13.:10:17.

conventions go up the window. Excuse me, I was on that committee,

:10:17.:10:22.

it did not say that. It did not accept, and those of us in favour

:10:22.:10:28.

of reform, supported that on the basis that was a separate issue. We

:10:28.:10:32.

did not say on that committee you had to change the powers before

:10:32.:10:39.

changing the composition. I was there. I was actually there, I was

:10:39.:10:48.

on that committee. You were not. You obviously never read the report.

:10:48.:10:53.

Can I remind you again of the words of the Conservative manifesto. We

:10:53.:10:57.

will work to build a consensus. It doesn't sound like you have done it.

:10:57.:11:01.

He don't have to have unanimity in the Conservative Party to have a

:11:01.:11:07.

decision. You are relying on the manifesto which has been shot to

:11:07.:11:12.

pieces. Also, you are very unrepresentative of most of the

:11:12.:11:20.

Labour Party, the Labour leadership in the Commons, you are a dinosaur.

:11:20.:11:24.

I think you are getting a phone call from your leader! I think what

:11:24.:11:30.

my party once, is a sensible Bill. And yours is total rubbish. What he

:11:30.:11:35.

wants I am sure is a form and a democratic House of Lords as well

:11:35.:11:40.

as Commons. We won't get it while dinosaurs are blocking the way.

:11:40.:11:50.
:11:50.:11:50.

hit is an issue which nobody cares about, according to the polls.

:11:50.:11:54.

you ask people what are the most important issues facing Britain,

:11:54.:12:01.

the reform of the Lords gets 0%. How all this play about? If the

:12:01.:12:07.

entire summer is dominated by this, it will play out very badly. It's

:12:07.:12:14.

the opponents who say this is mad to make this a number one priority.

:12:14.:12:19.

Nick Clegg wants it. His party wants it more than he does. For he

:12:19.:12:25.

wants it. After losing the alternative vote referendum. Number

:12:25.:12:35.
:12:35.:12:35.

10 is still saying the promised it is still committed. -- the Prime

:12:35.:12:41.

Minister. How do you let the second chamber in France? It is elected to

:12:41.:12:48.

start with. They got rid of Lords during the Revolution! Which is an

:12:48.:12:55.

easy way to go about it. There is an intellectual case for it. I am

:12:55.:13:01.

amazed you say 0% of people are concerned. It is very important.

:13:01.:13:05.

you ask every opinion poll, it says most people are in favour of

:13:05.:13:11.

collecting it. It is not top of their list. The only reason it will

:13:11.:13:14.

clog up Holland visit the people who are against it spend time time-

:13:14.:13:24.
:13:24.:13:26.

wasting. People want current paces macro to have a long period before

:13:26.:13:34.

change. If there is a referendum, it looks a good idea... Let me be

:13:35.:13:39.

clear. You are speaking for the party that now wants to give us a

:13:39.:13:42.

referendum on an issue no one cares about. But the party which wouldn't

:13:42.:13:49.

give us a referendum... In relation to the Lords, we always said there

:13:50.:13:54.

would be a referendum. In relation to Lisbon, and cut remember the

:13:54.:14:02.

precise timing, it went away for some reason -- I can't remember.

:14:02.:14:10.

You support an elected, your party supports an elected chamber. Stop

:14:11.:14:16.

the politics and support him. upping macro, it is a very bad

:14:16.:14:25.

proposal which would be bad for the country -- no. I'll be asking the

:14:25.:14:30.

Deputy Prime Minister about this issue, when he joins me on the

:14:30.:14:38.

Sunday Politics. On BBC One, this Now, the papers this morning don't

:14:38.:14:41.

make great reading for the Government. Do we detect a theme

:14:41.:14:45.

here? Many are splashing on the news that the radical cleric Abu

:14:45.:14:48.

Qatada could be released on bail within weeks because of the

:14:48.:14:52.

confusion surrounding his deportation. It's a further blow to

:14:52.:14:55.

the Home Secretary Theresa May, and her department. Mrs May insists

:14:55.:15:02.

that Abu Qatada's lawyers have his deportation. But a spokesman

:15:02.:15:03.

for the European Court says the appeal, lodged on Tuesday evening,

:15:03.:15:13.
:15:13.:15:16.

was "just in time". The judge here who approved Abu Qatada's arrest at

:15:16.:15:19.

the start of the week, Mr Justice Mitting, says that "if it is

:15:19.:15:22.

obvious after two or three weeks that deportation is not imminent"

:15:22.:15:28.

then he would reconsider bail for Abu Qatada.

:15:28.:15:30.

Meanwhile the Justice Secretary Ken Clarke hailed a new declaration,

:15:30.:15:40.

agreed in Brighton, to reform the European Court. Mr Clarke says

:15:40.:15:43.

there will be more "subsidiarity" and a "margin of appreciation" -

:15:43.:15:49.

that means more decisions made by national courts. However, the

:15:50.:15:52.

President of the European Court, a Brit called Nicholas Bratza, said

:15:52.:15:55.

he was "uncomfortable with the idea that governments can in some way

:15:55.:15:59.

dictate to the court how its case law should evolve or how it should

:15:59.:16:09.
:16:09.:16:14.

carry out the judicial functions Not a lot of enthusiasm there from

:16:14.:16:19.

the President. Charles Falconer is still with us and we're joined from

:16:19.:16:22.

the home of the European Court, Strasbourg, by Martin Callanan the

:16:22.:16:24.

Tory MEP who heads the right of centre European Parliament grouping

:16:24.:16:34.

of which the Conservative Party are members. Welcome to both of you.

:16:34.:16:38.

Charlie Falconer, let me come to you first. You are a lawyer as well

:16:38.:16:43.

as a former politician and former Lord Chancellor. Did Theresa may

:16:43.:16:47.

get the old days right or not? think she might have got it wrong.

:16:47.:16:54.

-- did she get the date right? The convention says you have to make

:16:54.:16:57.

the appeal within three months and the guidance documents say it

:16:57.:17:02.

includes the day of the judgment but other cases say it does not

:17:02.:17:05.

include the day of the judgment. It is very confusing, but if you are

:17:05.:17:09.

confused by that, the right thing is to wait until the last possible

:17:09.:17:13.

date and then it said you were going to deport. Instead she took a

:17:13.:17:19.

risk. I don't know what advice she had got. I read in the newspapers

:17:19.:17:24.

she was evasive about saying what advice she got. I do not know who

:17:24.:17:28.

took the risk. The right thing to do if your stated stance was to say

:17:28.:17:32.

you would only move to deport him once the time for appeal had gone,

:17:32.:17:38.

then you should wait for that time for appeal unequivocally. And get

:17:38.:17:41.

clarity from Strasbourg as to what they considered was the right thing.

:17:41.:17:44.

She should have waited until the end of the next day and there would

:17:45.:17:49.

have been no argument one way or another. The problem she has ended

:17:49.:17:56.

up in is that somebody, whether it was hurt or a lawyer, took a risk

:17:56.:17:58.

that the view it ended on the Monday was right, and it has now

:17:59.:18:02.

turned out to be wrong. The court has now said it was within time.

:18:02.:18:08.

is a technical issue, but there are bigger symbolic issues. Let me go

:18:08.:18:14.

to Martin. If Abu Qatada gets released on bail, is that curtains

:18:14.:18:21.

for the Home Secretary? No, I don't think so. I think Theresa May is on

:18:21.:18:24.

the side of the angels and is doing an excellent job. It is just the

:18:24.:18:29.

angels are not sure what day it is. This argument about dates is

:18:30.:18:32.

interpreted and reinterpreted by the court, and this is the problem

:18:32.:18:36.

with it, it makes the law as they go along about what people ought to

:18:36.:18:41.

save rather than what it does say. But going back to the principles,

:18:41.:18:45.

this guy has been illegally in the country for 20 years and successive

:18:46.:18:49.

Home Secretaries have considered him a threat to national security

:18:49.:18:53.

and he was labelled a terrorist sympathiser by a judge and he

:18:53.:18:58.

detests what we stand for in the UK. Everybody wants rid of him. We know

:18:58.:19:05.

that, but none of you can find a way of doing it. The problem is

:19:05.:19:07.

that the European Court of Human Rights substituted judgment on

:19:07.:19:12.

elected politicians in the UK and even in the UK courts and the UK

:19:12.:19:19.

taxpayer is funding both sides of the case. We know that, and we have

:19:19.:19:23.

heard it endlessly, politicians come on to this programme wringing

:19:23.:19:28.

their hands about this all the time. Should the Home Secretary do what

:19:28.:19:33.

the French and the Italians do and just put him on a plane to Jordan?

:19:33.:19:38.

No, she can't. That would be contrary to the law and we abide by

:19:38.:19:43.

the law in the UK and a thing that is correct. What we should do is

:19:43.:19:45.

change the law and abnegate the European Convention of Human Rights,

:19:45.:19:49.

withdraw from it and then it will be perfectly legal for Abu Qatada

:19:49.:19:53.

to be deported. Kenneth Clarke says the Brighton agreement, which has

:19:53.:19:57.

been unveiled this morning on the European Court, will make a big

:19:57.:20:02.

difference to the way it works. The President of the court says it will

:20:02.:20:08.

not change the way it -- we do our jobs. Who is right? Eyes suspect

:20:08.:20:13.

the President of the court is right, because the job of interpreting it

:20:13.:20:17.

lies with him and his fellow judges, most of whom are not even legally

:20:17.:20:21.

qualified. Most of them are political appointees and they will

:20:21.:20:24.

interpret the law as they see fit. That is what they have done all

:20:24.:20:28.

along. It sounds like you do not trust your justice secretary on

:20:28.:20:33.

this. I am suspicious of his motives, I have to say. I prefer

:20:33.:20:38.

the interpretation of Tereza May. The point is, Charlie Falconer, can

:20:38.:20:41.

you point to any of the clauses in the Brighton declaration that would

:20:41.:20:46.

have made a difference to the Abu Qatada case? They are saying they

:20:46.:20:51.

will streamline the process is. The subsidiarity staff won't add any

:20:51.:20:56.

difference to the result -- the subsidiarity stuff. But they are

:20:56.:20:59.

saying their procedural changes that will make it quicker and there

:20:59.:21:03.

are complaints about what happened with Abu Qatada because some people

:21:03.:21:09.

say he's ability to appeal means the process takes so long. It has

:21:09.:21:14.

taken 10 years and everyone is exasperated about that. I am more

:21:14.:21:18.

hopeful than your other guest that it will make a difference. I have

:21:18.:21:22.

no idea what difference it will make. We have a situation in the UK

:21:22.:21:26.

way you have a final court of appeal that will hear around 60

:21:26.:21:30.

cases per year. What you need the the European Court of Human Rights

:21:30.:21:35.

is a coarse -- a court that he is a small matter cases, sets out the

:21:35.:21:40.

principles, and decides things in a reasonable time. People are fed up

:21:40.:21:43.

with any party's ability to sort this out. This man was allowed in

:21:43.:21:47.

illegally under a Tory government, then in 2001 under the Labour

:21:47.:21:51.

government for nine years, you fail to get progress in getting him out,

:21:51.:21:56.

and now we have a Tory government back in and we are not quite sure

:21:56.:21:59.

what day of the week it is. question about the timing is one

:21:59.:22:05.

that could have risen in an English case. The problem is that the time

:22:05.:22:09.

these things take. It is right to have a court out of the country

:22:09.:22:13.

that is saying, regionally, for Europe, what is the standard of

:22:13.:22:17.

human rights. That is a good thing and insures people are protected.

:22:17.:22:22.

What is a bad thing is... Why can't they be protected by the British

:22:22.:22:26.

Supreme Court which is nine of the best qualified judges in the world?

:22:26.:22:29.

The Kozuka always have a government saying you can disagree -- because

:22:29.:22:33.

you can always have a government that disagrees and says the courts

:22:33.:22:39.

in Britain were wrong. You have to have something outside the UK.

:22:39.:22:42.

United States doesn't. But they have judges who can strike down

:22:42.:22:47.

legislation. So you have an independent protective in the US of

:22:47.:22:53.

people's human rights. Why is this not an issue in France? I do not

:22:53.:22:59.

know why in Britain we always blame Europe. Because we stick to the

:22:59.:23:03.

rules and in France you just put them on a plane. Mr Sarkozy has

:23:03.:23:10.

just done it. But we did not involve the European Court of Human

:23:10.:23:13.

Rights on this. It might be down to the more authoritarian nature of

:23:13.:23:18.

the French state, perhaps. And it is very difficult to get to the

:23:18.:23:21.

European Court of Human Rights in France. The funding is more

:23:21.:23:27.

difficult. We are a nation where we make access to the courts,

:23:27.:23:31.

including the European Court, very easy would you are rich or poor. I

:23:31.:23:35.

am not sure if it is like that in France. Frankly, the political

:23:35.:23:41.

establishment do not know what to do. The reforms, most people think

:23:41.:23:43.

they won't make much difference, and he says we should just leave.

:23:43.:23:49.

David Cameron is not going to just leave and couldn't give a coalition

:23:49.:23:53.

with the Liberal Democrats. It is a stalemate for the future. It is,

:23:53.:23:56.

and a lot of legal process is complicated and people cannot

:23:56.:24:00.

Follett. When you get down to a Monday or Tuesday, people can

:24:00.:24:04.

follow that. People think if you have waited 10 years and you cannot

:24:04.:24:08.

wait another day... Everyone agrees that we should get rid of him, so

:24:08.:24:14.

why, do that? You want Britain to pull out of the European Court of

:24:14.:24:19.

Human Rights altogether. Do you want us to have our own British

:24:19.:24:23.

Bill of Rights? I think that is a matter Parliament can determine.

:24:23.:24:29.

was asking you. What benefit accrues to the UK from our

:24:29.:24:32.

membership of this court? I don't feel my human rights are under

:24:32.:24:36.

threat. We are the country that had the Magna Carter, the British Bill

:24:36.:24:41.

of Rights and by human rights are well protected. The idea not one to

:24:41.:24:46.

be protected by judges from Belarus and the Ukraine. -- I do not want

:24:46.:24:50.

to be protected. There are only two courses in the Magna Carter that

:24:50.:24:54.

are still part of British law and a British Bill of Rights was at the

:24:54.:24:57.

end of the 17th century. If you are so convinced this is the right way

:24:57.:25:01.

to go, how come you have not convinced your prime minister?

:25:01.:25:05.

think David Cameron probably does support that view. He doesn't

:25:05.:25:09.

support the idea of full withdrawal from the European Court. Let's see

:25:09.:25:13.

what is in the next Conservative manifesto. The problem is we are in

:25:14.:25:17.

coalition with the Liberal Democrats to believe it is fine for

:25:17.:25:23.

us to be dictated to by these various tribunals and courts.

:25:23.:25:26.

doubt Abu Qatada will be here to read the next Conservative

:25:26.:25:30.

manifesto. Probably! Thank you for joining us. We had trouble getting

:25:30.:25:34.

you earlier, but it's good to see. Now, we're going election crazy on

:25:35.:25:37.

the Daily Politics today. First up, France. It's the last day of

:25:38.:25:40.

campaigning before voters go to the polls on Sunday in the French

:25:41.:25:48.

presidential elections. Nicolas Sarkozy is in Nice and Francoise

:25:48.:25:58.
:25:58.:25:58.

Hollande in Bordeaux making their final pleas for votes today. The

:25:58.:26:02.

campaigning starts tonight, Saturday is quiet, and then they go

:26:02.:26:05.

to the polls. Opinion polls show the two men are neck-and-neck, but

:26:05.:26:13.

Socialist candidate Mr Hollande is favourite to win a run-off vote.

:26:13.:26:18.

Probably by quite a big majority if the opinion polls are right. Here's

:26:18.:26:21.

Susana Mendonsa with all you'll need to know your onions on the

:26:21.:26:24.

French election. I should warn you that her report contains some flash

:26:24.:26:32.

The French Presidential Election is upon us and there's everything to

:26:32.:26:42.
:26:42.:26:43.

play for for the incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy. He'll need the help

:26:43.:26:46.

because this is a very tight race, and if the voters decide that it's

:26:46.:26:49.

"au revoir", he'd become the first French president not to be re-

:26:49.:26:57.

elected for a second term in more The French elect their president in

:26:57.:27:01.

a two stage process, starting with stage one this weekend. To be

:27:01.:27:04.

elected on the first round alone, one of the ten candidates would

:27:04.:27:08.

have to win an absolute majority at the polls on Sunday. If none of

:27:08.:27:11.

them achieve that, then the the top two candidates will face each other

:27:11.:27:20.

The front runners are Conservative Sarkozy, and Socialist Francoise

:27:20.:27:27.

Hollande who's promising change. Polls this week put him at 29%,

:27:27.:27:32.

edging every so slightly ahead of Sarkozy who's on 28%. The rest of

:27:32.:27:36.

the candidates veer from the far left to the far right and will most

:27:36.:27:39.

likely be eliminated this weekend, but where their supporters go could

:27:39.:27:45.

be the tipping point, with Hollande favourite to win the second round.

:27:45.:27:48.

And this is the man whose votes he'll hope to pick up, the Left

:27:48.:27:58.
:27:58.:27:59.

Front's Jean-Luc Melenchon. While Sarkozy will hope that far right's

:27:59.:28:02.

National Front leader Le Pen's supporters will vote for him. But

:28:02.:28:08.

that's forced both men to appeal to the extremes. One of Melenchon's

:28:08.:28:10.

more controversial ideas is to confiscate all income over 360,000

:28:10.:28:17.

euros a year. Holland followed that up with a pledge to tax income

:28:18.:28:20.

above one million euros at 75%. Sarkozy has sought to claw back

:28:21.:28:23.

right wing voters with policies like pulling out of Europe's

:28:23.:28:26.

borderless zone unless there's a crackdown on illegal immigration.

:28:26.:28:29.

And after the shootings in Toulouse by the son of Algerian immigrants,

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:40.

he's proposed tougher laws against But it's on the economy that who

:28:40.:28:44.

wins in France affects us here in Britain. Sarkozy's support for a

:28:44.:28:46.

financial transaction tax on the banks is looked upon with suspicion.

:28:46.:28:49.

And Hollande's tax and spending approach might force Germany to

:28:49.:28:59.
:28:59.:29:00.

look towards Britain. I am glad I gave a warning about the flash

:29:00.:29:06.

photography. And I'm delighted to say we are joined by the Socialist

:29:06.:29:08.

candidate for Nord Europe - the constituency for ex-pat French

:29:08.:29:15.

nationals which includes those living in the UK, Axelle Lemaire.

:29:15.:29:19.

The vast majority of French people living in the UK are in the London

:29:19.:29:24.

area. A lot of them work in the city. As a Socialist candidate, is

:29:24.:29:28.

it quite hard to campaign for these people's boats as so many of them

:29:28.:29:34.

have come to London to escape people like Francoise Hollande.

:29:34.:29:38.

I've don't think they'd come to escape him. I think they came to

:29:38.:29:44.

London and were attracted by offers in the job market. I think people

:29:44.:29:49.

working in the city, what they want, they want a strong economy for

:29:49.:29:54.

France and long-term policies and a stable economy likely to attract

:29:54.:29:56.

foreign investments. This is something Nicolas Sarkozy has not

:29:57.:30:06.
:30:07.:30:07.

The French people I know who live in London escaped France because he

:30:07.:30:12.

believed there were not the kind of jobs they could get in London, and

:30:12.:30:20.

because taxes were too high. Well, Nicolas Sarkozy has actually

:30:20.:30:25.

created 45 new taxes in five years. The public debt has doubled in 10

:30:25.:30:32.

years. You are not going to cut these taxes. That depends for whom.

:30:32.:30:38.

Mr Hollande wants to introduce progressive taxation. So there

:30:38.:30:41.

would probably be more French people paying taxes, but the edit

:30:41.:30:46.

is to make it progressive. That means the wealthiest have to pay.

:30:46.:30:52.

It is already quite progressive. Mr Hollande is suggesting if you earn

:30:52.:30:58.

over one million euros, your marginal rate will become 75%. How

:30:58.:31:04.

much money would that raised? think he is doing that for the

:31:04.:31:09.

symbolic aspect of it. And because this would concern 3,000

:31:09.:31:17.

individuals. The important tax rate to look at is the 45%, which would

:31:17.:31:24.

concern earnings between 150,000.1000000 Euros euros. Why is

:31:24.:31:28.

it symbolically important? Because taxation is very unfair in France

:31:28.:31:36.

and people are fed up with the richest paying less taxes, than

:31:36.:31:43.

bloke and middle-class citizens. Mr Hollande were to implement the

:31:43.:31:48.

centre by % tax, you would need to book far ahead on the Eurostar

:31:48.:31:54.

because it will be packed with millionaires. I am not sure. The

:31:54.:32:00.

reason I came to Britain in 1975 was because of the new President

:32:00.:32:09.

then. I love Britain too much now to go back. Don't be so sure about

:32:09.:32:18.

the reason why. In a country surrounded by other countries,

:32:19.:32:23.

France has borders with anyone and a tunnel would Britain, why won't

:32:23.:32:32.

they leave? They will be taxed anyway. Nicolas Sarkozy proposed it

:32:32.:32:37.

because he proposes everything that Mr Hollande is proposing as a

:32:37.:32:44.

desperate measure. He says they will be taxed anywhere. If Mr

:32:44.:32:48.

Hollande wins, will Jean Luc Melenchon who wants to confiscate

:32:48.:32:55.

all money above 350,000 euros, a real socialist policy, where he get

:32:55.:33:04.

a job in the government? I can't say, I don't know how Mr Hollande

:33:04.:33:08.

will form his government. Jean Luc Melenchon has already announced he

:33:08.:33:15.

does not want to be in government. That being said, it doesn't mean Mr

:33:15.:33:19.

Hollande should not take into account the messages sent by the

:33:19.:33:23.

people who would vote for Jean Luc Melenchon, as he would do for any

:33:23.:33:29.

other candidate. If he is elected, he will be elected by the French

:33:29.:33:33.

people and he will have to rule in the national interest. What lessons

:33:33.:33:40.

are there for British politicians? An interesting campaign.

:33:40.:33:48.

Interesting issues. In addition to the two main candidates, the others

:33:48.:33:54.

have been interesting as well. obvious parallel is the Labour and

:33:54.:34:02.

Tories worried about losing votes to the UKIP party. And the respect

:34:02.:34:12.
:34:12.:34:17.

party. We know David Cameron would want Nicolas Sarkozy to win but he

:34:17.:34:23.

does a -- not know if it will happen. There is a love-hate

:34:23.:34:29.

relationship. Of the two, he would prefer to have Nicolas Sarkozy.

:34:29.:34:35.

is not so clear that it is in the interest of Ed Miliband for Mr

:34:35.:34:39.

Hollande to win. In a sense it would be a victory for the left but

:34:39.:34:44.

if it quickly unravels, as it did with Francois Mitterrand's early on,

:34:44.:34:54.
:34:54.:34:55.

that is not good news. If the policies start panning out, rich

:34:55.:35:01.

people start leaving, tax revenues go down, then that will play out

:35:01.:35:07.

badly. If your man wins, you could win as well. London voted last time

:35:07.:35:13.

roughly the way France voted. So, you could be representing London

:35:13.:35:19.

and the other areas in the French Assembly. If he does win, who do

:35:19.:35:23.

you think will bring him to his senses more quickly? The bond

:35:23.:35:33.
:35:33.:35:36.

markets or Angela Merkel? people, hopefully. I was very

:35:37.:35:44.

interested to read in the Economist today, this idea from the leaders,

:35:44.:35:54.

that the addition -- that leaders have to work together to promote

:35:54.:36:01.

growth. That is the message Mr Hollande would send to Angela

:36:01.:36:05.

Merkel and hopefully they would agree on a fat the markets have to

:36:05.:36:10.

be stabilised, to promote growth. Good luck with your dealings with

:36:10.:36:14.

Angela Merkel. Am I right in thinking the Nicolas

:36:14.:36:18.

Sarkozy campaign which at one stage but it clique around the events in

:36:18.:36:24.

Toulouse looked like it was having a head of steam. But that has

:36:24.:36:31.

petered out. What happened is all candidates have the same space on

:36:31.:36:38.

radio and TV. Nicolas Sarkozy is very good at fireworks. But he is

:36:38.:36:44.

not there anymore. Therefore, he is plummeting in the polls. So I am

:36:44.:36:51.

right. If you are right! The Now, over the course of the

:36:51.:36:53.

next couple of weeks we'll be interviewing all the candidates

:36:53.:36:57.

vying to become Mayor of London. Yesterday we spoke to the Green

:36:57.:37:00.

candidate Jenny Jones. Today, we speak to the BNP candidate. He's

:37:00.:37:02.

called Carlos Cortiglia. He's originally from Uruguay. We'll

:37:02.:37:06.

speak to him in a moment but, first, let's take a look at what he's

:37:06.:37:09.

offering. On transport: he wants to look at

:37:09.:37:14.

the possibility of abolishing the congestion charge.

:37:14.:37:17.

He's also offering free weekend travel on the Underground and

:37:17.:37:19.

trains. On crime: he wants to introduce

:37:19.:37:23.

minimum five-year prison sentences for knife crime.

:37:24.:37:27.

And he also opposes the use of water cannons on streets to cope

:37:27.:37:29.

with rioting. He's also promising there'll be no

:37:29.:37:35.

amnesties for illegal immigrants in the capital.

:37:35.:37:45.
:37:45.:37:46.

Carlos Cortiglia joins us now. Welcome to the programme. In 2010,

:37:46.:37:50.

the BNP campaigned against, the immigrant invasion of our country.

:37:50.:37:56.

And you are part of that invasion? Precisely. The reason is, the BNP

:37:56.:38:01.

has to change. It wants to be a British National Party, has to stop

:38:01.:38:07.

talking about 1930s ideas, which are ridiculous, and I invite anyone

:38:07.:38:13.

who is a nationalist to watch the Battle of Britain, and to watch a

:38:13.:38:16.

very good series done by Thames Television about the history of the

:38:16.:38:26.

war. And to understand what British nationalism has to be about. It's

:38:26.:38:31.

his not a continuity of that, but to start thinking about what is in

:38:31.:38:35.

the best interests of Britain. are you saying you are not anti-

:38:35.:38:41.

immigrant any more? We talk about illegal immigration, that is the

:38:41.:38:46.

issue. People who are legally entitled, like me, to be in this

:38:46.:38:52.

country, are not the issue. But the BNP national conceit is to offer

:38:52.:38:59.

generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here, not illegal,

:38:59.:39:04.

who wished to leave permanently. they want to. How much will it take

:39:04.:39:08.

to send you back to Uruguay? A bid people want to make that choice,

:39:08.:39:13.

they can. There is no argument that people who are legally entitled to

:39:13.:39:19.

be here have the right to be a participant. So if we had a whip-

:39:19.:39:24.

round to entice you to go back to Uruguay? You would have to raise a

:39:24.:39:29.

lot of money. I established by family in the UK. My three children

:39:29.:39:33.

are born in London. I have been here for almost a quarter of a

:39:33.:39:38.

century. The reason I came here is still valid. I love this country

:39:38.:39:46.

and I want to represent it and put an end to this chauvinism from

:39:46.:39:51.

1930s which is not the solution for Britain's problems. The fact is,

:39:51.:40:01.
:40:01.:40:03.

immigration is your party's reason for being. People will find it

:40:03.:40:06.

strange that someone who is an immigrant, who has done well in

:40:06.:40:10.

this country, who is part of the reason why people think immigration

:40:10.:40:13.

overall has been rather a good thing for Britain, particularly for

:40:13.:40:19.

London, is representing a party that would send you back if it had

:40:19.:40:24.

half a chance. The problem in this country, it is a situation all

:40:24.:40:27.

political parties including the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats

:40:27.:40:34.

and Tories agree on, -- Labour, it is not a question of stopping

:40:34.:40:44.

people coming here. Countries, when they get people who can offer

:40:44.:40:49.

something, if you have a country like the UK that has no control

:40:49.:40:54.

over its borders because, basically, immigration policy has been

:40:54.:40:59.

influenced by being a member of the European Union, we have elected

:40:59.:41:05.

authorities, they should be running out immigration policy, not Europe.

:41:06.:41:10.

But your party, there is a sense that you are a front man for this

:41:10.:41:15.

party. Because you represented party, you don't say it yourself,

:41:15.:41:21.

that would stop all new immigration. That is not at all. For that is BNP

:41:21.:41:27.

policy, you would reject all asylum seekers. The issue of asylum

:41:27.:41:34.

seekers is about illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. We have a

:41:34.:41:38.

border a authority that just confessed they are not able to

:41:38.:41:42.

manage the number of people coming in. That is different from saying

:41:42.:41:49.

no more immigration. If we had that Lord today, you'll would not be

:41:49.:41:53.

allowed in -- you would not be allowed in. I would say that is not

:41:53.:41:59.

a policy of the BNP. It is their national policy. These islands off

:41:59.:42:05.

the coast of Argentina. What you call them? The Falkland Islands.

:42:05.:42:11.

Not the Malvinas Islands? In 1982, there was a dictator in Argentina.

:42:11.:42:17.

Argentina was going down the drain. Who did you support? I supported

:42:17.:42:22.

Britain. So this story that you tried to sign up for the

:42:22.:42:30.

Argentinian forces? That is not true? It is not true, I was working

:42:30.:42:35.

for the state education system, a teacher of mathematics that ear. I

:42:35.:42:40.

did not move away from Montevideo. I was studying the English language

:42:40.:42:44.

at the American Institute. I was studying journalism and I had

:42:44.:42:51.

nothing to do with it. Why is such a well educated person representing

:42:51.:42:56.

be BNP in this election? Because I do believe there is a need for

:42:56.:43:06.
:43:06.:43:06.

change. Why did you join UKIP? would say to you, David Cameron

:43:06.:43:13.

said the BNP is a far-right party. I said jokingly, we are in the

:43:13.:43:20.

middle. The point is... If you listen to the French election,

:43:20.:43:25.

marine Le Pen, and Jean Luc Melenchon on the far left and right,

:43:25.:43:31.

they're saying quite a lot of the same thing. If no, they're not.

:43:31.:43:35.

Public services must be public services and one of our policies is

:43:35.:43:39.

to stop the automation of the underground and maintain the

:43:39.:43:45.

principle we need to protect public services. That is not a far right

:43:45.:43:49.

cried but a socialist principle. To protect public services and workers.

:43:50.:43:54.

The whatever you stand for isn't working, you are 1% in the polls.

:43:54.:44:00.

would say to you, the issue of percentages is not the issue. In

:44:00.:44:03.

British politics, it is participation. This is the first

:44:03.:44:09.

time I have had a chance to talk about politics. In all of the

:44:09.:44:16.

debates and hustings, including those organised by the BBC, and no

:44:16.:44:26.
:44:26.:44:28.

BNP is represented. We have run out of time.

:44:28.:44:37.

Now, it's not just election time in London and France this spring. Oh

:44:37.:44:39.

no, they'll be casting ballots in Scotland, across England and in

:44:39.:44:43.

Wales too where there's good news and bad news for all four main

:44:43.:44:46.

political parties. Labour's on the comeback trail, the Tories are on a

:44:46.:44:50.

bit of a high, the Lib Dems have yet to face a major backlash as a

:44:50.:44:52.

result of the Coalition in Westminster and Plaid Cymru made

:44:52.:44:56.

gains at the local elections four years ago. So how might things pan

:44:56.:45:02.

Thompson to Barry Island, home of Gavin and Stacey, to see who'll be

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:20.

making the political weather in Barry, in the Vale of Glamorgan,

:45:20.:45:24.

home to Britain's hardiest holiday makers and to a certain TV sitcom.

:45:24.:45:28.

If you're not from Wales, Barry probably means Gavin and Stacey,

:45:28.:45:32.

but politically this place as more about it than that, because what

:45:32.:45:35.

happens in next month's local elections could give us a big clue

:45:35.:45:39.

to the fate of the four main political parties in Wales and

:45:39.:45:45.

beyond. So, what's occurring? At the moment there is a slim Tory

:45:45.:45:48.

majority on the council and the one Westminster seat here as well.

:45:48.:45:52.

Labour would like to take them both, and in general, Wales has been

:45:52.:45:55.

something of a success story for the David Cameron team. How have

:45:55.:46:01.

they done it and can they keep the area around Barry Blue? We have

:46:01.:46:05.

broadened the base and branded ourselves as a Welsh party, at the

:46:05.:46:09.

same time the other parties have moved to the left, so if you are a

:46:09.:46:12.

centre right Botha in Wales, the only party is the Conservative

:46:12.:46:17.

Party. But in Wales, lefties not necessarily a dirty word, and for

:46:17.:46:20.

Plaid Cymru it is the key to building on the gains made in the

:46:20.:46:25.

last set of local elections. We are to the left of Labour and that is a

:46:25.:46:28.

message if it is bought in practical terms about the

:46:28.:46:31.

difference it can make in the community can be positive, but we

:46:31.:46:34.

do know that we face a challenge because when people are fearful, as

:46:35.:46:38.

they are at the moment, the Labour Party says they have to vote Labour

:46:38.:46:42.

to keep the Tories out and that is a message we have to counteract.

:46:42.:46:46.

what about Labour? In the words of its former leader in Wales, the

:46:46.:46:50.

party to go belting in the 2008 local elections. Since then there

:46:50.:46:54.

has been a bit of a revival. But can Welsh Labour leader resurgence

:46:54.:46:59.

of the party across the UK? There is a message in that we are less

:46:59.:47:04.

associated with New Labour here. We have always been classic Labour,

:47:04.:47:08.

not all Labour, but classic Labour as distinct from New Labour. I

:47:08.:47:13.

think that has been a helpful message. If we can increase the

:47:13.:47:15.

number of Labour-controlled authorities, in particular the big

:47:15.:47:20.

ones like Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham, that would be a major

:47:20.:47:25.

advance and I think it would be a message for Labour, nationally.

:47:25.:47:31.

Funnily enough, they are almost the main Welsh cities the Labour Dems -

:47:31.:47:36.

- the Lib Dems are running. So can they avoid the mid-term blues this

:47:36.:47:40.

time round? We are fighting the election in different circumstances

:47:40.:47:44.

because of the power in Westminster, but it is clear that over the last

:47:44.:47:47.

three years the Liberal Democrat councils have kept council tax

:47:47.:47:51.

levels low and invested in schools and communities. There is no desire

:47:51.:47:57.

for people to go back to Labour-led councils. The air is fun for

:47:57.:48:03.

everyone in Barry, even on a day like this. And the main parties

:48:03.:48:06.

hope they will be making the political weather on 3rd May. And

:48:06.:48:09.

joining us from Cardiff to discuss all that, Vaughan Roderick, our

:48:09.:48:17.

Welsh Affairs Editor. Good to see you in the Welsh Assembly. Mark our

:48:17.:48:20.

card. As the results coming from Wales, what should we be looking

:48:20.:48:26.

out for? Results in Wales are notoriously difficult to predict

:48:26.:48:29.

because roughly a third of the councillors in Wales are

:48:29.:48:34.

independent and because many of the parties, at least three of the four,

:48:34.:48:38.

don't contest something like half of the wards. It is not a straight

:48:38.:48:42.

battle between the four parties anywhere apart from the capital

:48:42.:48:47.

city of Cardiff. This is the place you have to look at, the council's

:48:47.:48:51.

mention their like -- by Rhodri Morgan, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea,

:48:51.:48:56.

Wrexham, those are the ones fought by all the parties on party

:48:56.:49:00.

political terms. Outside of those four, you have a mixture of

:49:00.:49:05.

independence, at hoc groupings of small, local parties, which make it

:49:05.:49:10.

difficult to draw conclusions. But we will want to look as well at

:49:10.:49:14.

places that Labour should never have lost four years ago. The old

:49:14.:49:21.

seat of Merthyr, and Neil Kinnock's old stamping ground. Labour lost

:49:21.:49:24.

control of councils that covered those constituencies which they

:49:24.:49:27.

should never have done. If Labour do not get those back, it will be a

:49:27.:49:32.

very bad night for them. Now Labour are in opposition in Westminster

:49:32.:49:36.

they will be looking to make some gains again in Wales. The Tories, I

:49:36.:49:40.

assume, will try to hold what they have got because they are

:49:40.:49:43.

historically in a decent position there compared to before. But Plaid

:49:43.:49:47.

Cymru have a new leader. They have taken a bit of a hit in recent

:49:47.:49:52.

years. Are they on the way back, do we think? It is the first big test

:49:52.:49:56.

for Leanne Ward, the person who took over the leadership a few

:49:57.:50:00.

months ago. Plaid Cymru think if they do not do well they can say it

:50:00.:50:05.

is early days. But what may happen is that they will lose some seats

:50:05.:50:11.

in urban Wales but they could offset that by gaining seats in the

:50:11.:50:17.

rural areas from the independents. There does seem to be a gradual

:50:17.:50:20.

decline in independence in Wales which will help the Tories as well.

:50:20.:50:26.

When it comes to overall numbers we might see Labour going up but Plaid

:50:26.:50:30.

Cymru and the Tory stain in the same place for which seats being

:50:30.:50:36.

offset by gains elsewhere. For Roderick, thank you very much and

:50:36.:50:40.

we look forward to the results and a couple of weeks' time. Vital

:50:40.:50:45.

prescription drugs including those for breast cancer, heart disease,

:50:45.:50:48.

diabetes are not being stocked in chemists around the country which

:50:48.:50:52.

is leading to a dangerous short fall for patients who are having to

:50:52.:50:59.

wait up will weep, which could be a bit scary. So who is to blame? The

:50:59.:51:04.

manufacturers were not supply or the wholesalers selling drugs

:51:04.:51:11.

abroad? In the studio we have Huw Irranca - Davies MP who has been

:51:11.:51:13.

highlighting the problem and Samantha Ogden from The Association

:51:13.:51:15.

of the British Pharmacuetical Industry. So, what is the problem?

:51:15.:51:20.

The problem was illustrated by a constituent of mine who said to me

:51:20.:51:23.

that she had been into the chemist looking for her breast cancer drug

:51:23.:51:27.

treatment and was told she could not get it. The chemist had rung

:51:27.:51:30.

the wholesalers and the local chemist and was now ringing the

:51:30.:51:34.

manufacturers to get hold of this. She went for three days without it

:51:34.:51:39.

and then they manage to get hold of one package. She is there every

:51:39.:51:43.

fortnight asking for this. They know she's coming in. I was

:51:43.:51:49.

disbelieving, but I went and looked at it and with the help of the

:51:49.:51:52.

pharmacists organisations, what I have learnt is that this is a

:51:52.:51:55.

problem across the UK and patients are at risk of damage to their

:51:55.:52:01.

health. Who, in your view, is to blame? There is no one individual

:52:01.:52:04.

calls for one individual to blame. The industry, across the supply

:52:04.:52:08.

chain, has been doing a lot as a -- rectify this but evidence says it

:52:08.:52:13.

is getting worse. It was acknowledged under Andy Burnham but

:52:13.:52:16.

it has not been got to grips with. Some of the solutions are out there

:52:16.:52:20.

and we are trying to persuade the government to take it seriously

:52:20.:52:23.

because every debate we have in the Commons there is no acknowledgement

:52:23.:52:28.

of the severity of the problem. can I come to this? In Britain we

:52:28.:52:31.

are world leaders in pharmaceuticals. We are up there

:52:31.:52:35.

with the Americans and the Germans. We own some of the biggest

:52:35.:52:37.

pharmaceutical companies in the country and they are based here.

:52:37.:52:41.

You see one on the way to Heathrow when you get a plane. How can it

:52:41.:52:47.

happen in Britain? Pharmaceutical manufacturers supply medicines for

:52:47.:52:49.

patients and they also make an effort to go beyond that and stock

:52:49.:52:55.

anything between 50 and 30% more. The challenges that a small

:52:55.:52:59.

percentage of pharmacists to have a business that not only prescribes

:52:59.:53:03.

and dispenses prescriptions also trade medicines overseas for profit.

:53:03.:53:09.

So it is their fault? I think they are part of the problem, yes.

:53:09.:53:12.

you know they are doing that, should and should tell them to

:53:12.:53:18.

stop? You are still getting the money. If the money is not going --

:53:18.:53:21.

if the pills are not going to the people who need them, but you still

:53:21.:53:26.

get the money it is a win-win situation for you. The challenge is

:53:26.:53:33.

making sure the obligation to the patient. You're not doing that.

:53:33.:53:36.

There is no way the pharmaceutical companies can differentiate whether

:53:36.:53:42.

medicines are going, so in good faith they cannot say they are not

:53:42.:53:46.

supplying to someone. If you have a massive order and you know it is

:53:46.:53:53.

going abroad could you say you will not supply? Now, we don't know and

:53:53.:53:59.

we can do that. In some areas we are in full agreement with you. One

:53:59.:54:05.

of the issues is if you had the focus all away down you have to say

:54:05.:54:13.

you have enough patience stock first. But the first responsibility

:54:13.:54:16.

is that in most European countries they have a patient service

:54:16.:54:20.

obligation. It might not be the solution completely, but it says

:54:20.:54:24.

you have to maintain stocks or your own patients first. Are you to

:54:24.:54:29.

going to work together to stop this? Because it is quite scary,

:54:29.:54:34.

particularly if you are older, that you cannot get your drugs. You have

:54:34.:54:38.

chemists at the moment saying that they are spending as much a six up

:54:38.:54:41.

to eight hours a week instead of being on the counter helping people

:54:41.:54:45.

with complaints. Well, come back and talk to us. Thank you for

:54:45.:54:50.

coming in. So, MPs returned to Westminster this week after another

:54:50.:54:54.

holiday. They will soon be going on another. But I wonder if David

:54:54.:54:58.

Cameron wishes they hadn't bothered. Here is Giles with the Week in 60

:54:58.:55:05.

One month on, and the budget continues to dominate political

:55:05.:55:09.

debate. Ed and David were back in the thick of it with the Labour

:55:09.:55:13.

leader taking on the PM over the charity, caravan and taxes on the

:55:13.:55:18.

pasty. Even people in Downing Street are calling it a complete

:55:18.:55:23.

shambles budget. Labour failed to block the granny tax but only by a

:55:23.:55:27.

geriatric whisker. The backbench Tory did not improve David Cameron

:55:27.:55:31.

smooth with a question about whether real life was just like the

:55:31.:55:35.

Prime Minister? They are a few occasions when the gentlemen needs

:55:35.:55:39.

a sense of humour. The elsewhere Theresa May was tackling the Abu

:55:39.:55:42.

Qatada case ending up with us not knowing if she was coming or going

:55:42.:55:46.

or what day it was. There was a little more love in evidence from

:55:46.:55:51.

Chris Grayling who called on business and not so much too hard a

:55:51.:55:54.

holiday but higher one. And after all that, it looks like Ed Miliband

:55:54.:55:59.

is on the up after a poll in the Sun newspaper put Labour 13 points

:55:59.:56:09.
:56:09.:56:12.

A 13 point Labour lead this morning, the sort of thing oppositions

:56:12.:56:18.

expect to have in the mid- term. This phrase of a complete shambles,

:56:18.:56:24.

although the more accurate term we cannot use, and a thing we did last

:56:24.:56:29.

night and got bleeped out, is it systemic? Will they get through

:56:29.:56:33.

this? There is a sense in Downing Street of panic. There is a sense

:56:34.:56:37.

that once this keeps going for a couple of weeks, everything gets

:56:37.:56:42.

seen through the same lens. It will be difficult to spin the Theresa

:56:42.:56:46.

May think positively, but if all the right-thinking newspapers were

:56:46.:56:49.

onside, they might have given her the benefit of the doubt and blamed

:56:49.:56:53.

the European Court, but to get scenes -- scene as they do not know

:56:53.:56:56.

what they are doing and once you get to that place, how can you

:56:56.:57:03.

convince people you are competent? So we could have a while to run.

:57:03.:57:06.

The MPs are going on holiday again and we are waiting for the Queen's

:57:06.:57:09.

Speech and there is nothing for us to write about. It builds up a head

:57:09.:57:12.

of steam. Until the Queen's speech comes, there is nothing they can do

:57:12.:57:17.

to get back the agenda. On Sunday night we get the results. The exit

:57:17.:57:25.

polls we get about 8pm. 8pm sharp. So, seven coquille. It is like

:57:25.:57:30.

religion. We are watching our TV screens at 8pm and the results come

:57:30.:57:34.

in. The exit polls are pretty reliable in France. They had been

:57:34.:57:41.

so far. Does Francoise Hollande come into this? They are made and

:57:41.:57:46.

tuck in the first round, it always has been, but could Sarkozy get

:57:46.:57:50.

some momentum by coming first in the first round? He could, but

:57:50.:57:56.

there are 10 candidates and Jean- Luc Melenchon, he might take a big

:57:56.:58:03.

chunk. But, obviously, the Melenchon voters will vote for

:58:03.:58:07.

Francoise Hollande in the second round. You have to be careful. We

:58:07.:58:13.

all hope for a surprise, but not that kind of surprise. Not like her

:58:13.:58:17.

father who got into the final round that time. We will leave it there

:58:17.:58:20.

and we will be watching on Sunday night. Good to see both. Good to

:58:20.:58:25.

see today and thank you to our guests. The 1pm news is starting on

:58:25.:58:29.

BBC One. And Joe and will be back with all the political news on

:58:29.:58:34.

Monday. I will be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics

:58:34.:58:39.

and I will be joined by the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. It is at

:58:39.:58:44.

Andrew is joined by Lord Oakeshott to discuss the latest coalition row on House of Lords reform. Plus the latest developments on Abu Qatada with Martin Callanan, the Leader of the Conservative Party in Europe, and Lord Falconer, former solicitor general for Labour.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS