14/05/2012 Daily Politics


14/05/2012

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. He discusses police reform and the direction of the Conservative Party with the former Tory leader Lord Howard.


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Transcript


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Afternoon all. When the Government calls on us all to work harder, let

:00:46.:00:51.

me be the first to respond, as Eric Pickles told me yesterday on the

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Sunday politics, "You've got to work harder." Here I am working an

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extra Monday shift, for love, for nothing, except for the dili

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politics for the love of it N Greece they are working overtime

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trying to get together a coalition Government. Here at home, public

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sector workers are on the war path, nurses, doctors, the police, all

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rejecting calls to tighten their belts. Speaking of war paths the

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Ministry of Defence is gearing up to say it has found a way of

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disappearing a giant black hole in its long-term procurement budget.

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Will it be fit for purpose? It is Alastair Campbell's turn in front

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of Lord Leveson this afternoon. Perhaps we will find out how Tony

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Blair signs off his texts. Stay tuned for the big news. Well, that

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in the next half an hour of solo public service broadcasting. If you

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have any thoughts or comments on anything, then you can keep them to

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yourself... No, sorry you can Tweet using the hashtag tag. Now with us

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for the ride is Michael Howard. Welcome. Thank you.

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But first, my own self-less contribution of getting rid of the

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deficit. When I read William Hague's suggestions that business

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leaders stop complaining and work a wee bit harder then I took it to

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hard. Eric Pickles took it to heart, by telling me the same thing to my

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face yesterday. I think we should all work harder. I should work

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harder. You should work harder. don't have an extra hour in the day.

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You are doing Sundays. So you are doing your bit. What evidence do

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you have that these people are not working very hard? I think the

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point that William is making and it is a very reasonable one and it

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comes back to the earlier point is, Government cannot create Government.

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It can create the conditions, but we'll only be able to do this if we

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all work harder. Well, what can I do? Roll up my sleeves for some

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extra hard work. Let's talk about this with Michael Howard. Just how

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does this work - politicians, Cabinet ministers lecturing us to

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work harder? You've had a great compliment from Eric Pickles who

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said you are doing your bit. So you can bask in that reflected glory.

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And the - it is a point of Government line - it's not the best

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to come up with. It would be very odd if somebody said we don't need

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to work as hard as we are working, we should not work harder. People

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are working harder. We work longer hours than our European neighbours.

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People are working hard from chief executives of big companies to

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nurses on the ward. Ifing harder is the answer we'd -- if working

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harder is the answer we'd have a boom economy. I travel abroad a

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fair bit and it is very frustrating when you go to companies in

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different parts of the world and you - countries in different parts

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of the world, and you find German companies there exporting. Italian

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companies there exporting. And you very often don't find as many

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British companies there exporting as you would like. I think there is

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something in our business culture - of course there are many, many

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great exceptions to this observation - but there is

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something in our business culture which has made many of our

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businesses less adventurous and perhaps less ambitious in terms of

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getting into these export markets and we have to export more. That is

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one of the ways in which we'll come out of the economic mess we're

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still in. But in terms of per capita, we export more per capita

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than any other country in the world. We have to do more. We have to do

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better That cannot be working harder... Does it go down well at a

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time when it is tough for people, when people's living standards are

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being squeezed for longer than any time since the 1920s, for a Cabinet

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of millionaires, and inherited wealth to tell us to work harder?

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Look, if you have a Trade Minister, Lord Green, who is working hard,

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going all over the world, you have others encouraging British business

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to get out there and really pitch for the orders that they can win

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and create jobs and create wealth in this country, it is perfectly

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reasonable to say there is more that can be done and you travel

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abroad. You know this is true. There is more that British business

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can do to win the orders that are out there, waiting to be won.

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is all - this all resonates with what used to happen in Harold

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Wilson's day in the 60s, "I'm backing Britain." Nothing wrong in

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backing Britain. There is if it doesn't mean anything. It is up to

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the Government to create the conditions in which business can

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prosper and if you... You say you meet all these businessmen, when

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you go abroad, they will tell you that they don't think the

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Government's economic policy gives them a chance to prosper. They

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don't say that. If we didn't have the determined attempt to bring

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down Britain's borrowing then they certainly would not have a chance

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to prosper. That is absolutely essential. That is an essential

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precondition. As Eric Pickles said, the Government can create

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conditions in which wealth can be created, but Government cannot do

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it on its own. I put it to you that the real issue is not people

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working harder - unless it could be for people who work more

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effectively. The real issue facing business and chief executives is

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not how hard they work. The fact is they are sitting on a cash pile of

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�750 billion and they are not investing it in Britain and the

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only reason they cannot be is because they don't think the

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Government has created the conditions for business to invest.

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Look, you know perfectly... That is true. Not entirely. Of course it is

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true they are sitting on a great cash pile, but the reason why...

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Why are they not investing in it? Because we live in extremely

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uncertain times. I wish we didn't. We live in uncertain times. We will

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probably talk about Greece and the euro in a moment or two. We are

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indeed. I would love British business to be investing that money.

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I don't think you can blame the fact they are not doing so on the

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Government. An interesting topic. It's been a slippery market on the

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European Stock Markets yet again. With Greece in per pettual

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political crisis, questions being asked about the future of the

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eurozone, is that any surprise? 125 to the pound, which I guess will

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make Europe cheaper this year and does not help our exports T chor us

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of disapprove -- the chorus of disapproving voices are in Greece

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and Germany. Mrs Merkel lost the biggest state in Germany in local

:08:18.:08:28.
:08:28.:08:29.

elections yesterday. There are a few unhappy workers here too.

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For austerity, that has been the economic model of choice here and

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in Europe and in the last few years across the continent. Political

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opposition show nos sign of retreating. Here doctors will start

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to vote on whether to take their first industrial action since the

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1970s, in a bitter dispute with the Government's controversial

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pensionry forms. The Royal College of Nursing is claiming overworked

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staff and job cuts have left the NHS facing a desperate situation.

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It says that 61,000 posts are at risk across the health service. A

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figure which the Government disputes. On Thursday more than

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30,000 off-duty police officers, they marched through central London

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to protest at cuts in the police service. Europe are chucking out

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governors in Greece. Coalition talks appear to be close to

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collapse, largely due to disagreements over the austerity

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programme forced on them by Europe. Tomorrow the new French President,

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Francois Hollande, who came to power on anti-austerity pledge,

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well he will meet for the first time the German Chancellor, Mrs

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Merkel, to argue for a different approach. Even Mrs Merkel has felt

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the displeasure of her people. Her Christian Democrat party suffered a

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regional defeat. The result many are interpreting as

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a verdict on the austerity programme.

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So, pretty grim times all around on this side of the channel and

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elsewhere. He joins us now, he is one of Labour's Treasury team.

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Welcome to the programme. Let me come to you first - it is a fiscal

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nimbyism you see. People accept there'll have to be cuts, to get

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the deficit down, to get the debt down, but not in our back yard!

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is understandable and not a very surprising reaction. It is easy to

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forget the basic economics here. If you have been borrowing too much

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and you need to carry on borrowing, the rate of interest you will pay

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depends on how credit-worthy you are. If you are seen to be making

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determined attempts to bring down your borrowing, you pay lower

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interest rates. That is one of the best ways you can encourage your

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economy to grow. If you start to borrow even more, the rate of

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interest you pay will go up and that would be one of the greatest

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imped meants to economic growth. This is not rocket science but it

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is something it is easy for people to forget. What do you say to that?

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I think you have to have a balanced approach T difficulty is that the

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Government don't show much sign of accepting that. Yes, we have to

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take action... Ultimately? Ully matly we do. In order -- ultimately

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we do. To deal with the high borrowing levels. There are 150

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million more than the Chancellor was predicting - you have to get

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growth into the economy. The Government seem to be saying it is

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just about austerity, it is just about the expenditure side, nothing

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about getting the economy moving, generating income, revenue to get

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back into the balance. That is all we have been saying for 18 months

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now at least. Alistair Darling had it in his plan. Of course there are

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tough decisions on expenditure, but we need to get the economy moving.

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That is where the Government is failing. You have done nothing to

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make people understand that there will have to be cuts. You attacked

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the Government for cuts, but you accept there are cuts yourself, but

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you never emphasis that. We always said we need a balanced approach.

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Yes, we are criticising the Government, as the phrase goes for

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going too far and too fast. The key thing here is we have said, yes,

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there are certain circumstances where reductions in expenditure are

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necessary. I give you the example of policing for example. Instead of

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the �20 billion reductions, we... That is the one example you always

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bring out. There are other examples elsewhere. Do you think the cuts

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have caused -- if you think the cuts are the reasons why the

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economy is not growing, how much has been cut since the coalition

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came to power? Of course they had their so-called Emergency Budget so

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called after the general election. There was a significant amount

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taken out of capital eke pen diure. Overall? We have not begun --

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expenditure. Overall? We have not begun... In the first two years,

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that feast is finished. How much have the coalition cut? I think

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they are certainly trying to reduce that sense that the Government are

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going to be active in economic policy. How much has been cut from

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public spending? Taking the last Year of the Labour Government and

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the financial year just finished, which means two full years? I don't

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have the figures with me. They are �8 billion. Public spending last

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year was �8 billion lower than the last year of Labour and the public

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spending had just gone up by �36 million. What I am trying to get to

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you is why would an �8 billion cut throw us into recession? There is a

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confidence issue and a demand issue here. If you think we've had the

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sense of confidence for consumers, the demand in the economy, it's

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just not been there. We've had choices taken by the Government

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that have removed confidence. If Government isn't there to play a

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counter sickicallyal role. If consumers do not spend, if there is

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no stimulus then we will go back into recession. We are in recession.

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This is a serious situation. We are not generating the revenues to get

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ourselves out of the hole. Let me come to Michael Howard N the first

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Budget, 2010, the OBR, endorsed by the Government, made predictions

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for growth this by now, by now, by the summer of 201, the economy

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would have grown by 4.3 -- 2012, the economy would have grown by

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4.3%. How much has it grown by? hasn't. It has grown by 0.4% in

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these two years, which is one-tenth of what the Government said it

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would grow by. When I interviewed Eric Pickles yesterday and other

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Government ministers, they seem bereft of any ideas to get growth

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going. First of all, you have got to go behind the label of growth.

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You have got to examine what people mean. What Chris Leslie means is

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borrowing more and spending more. There are things you could do to

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encourage growth which don't involve extra spending and

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borrowing. You would do things to free up the labour market. The

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Government is taking some measures in the de-regulation Bill, which

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:15:38.:15:40.

When the leader of the Opposition went to Barnsley the other day, he

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said he wanted to make it more difficult for employers to dismiss

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people, more difficult. Sorry Michael... He's going completely

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the other way. Is the ideology of the Government that making it

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easier to fire people is the best way to get out of the recession?

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You've asked me a question and I'll answer it. Everybody who has looked

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at these things all over the world knows, if it's ease tkwror fire

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people, it's easier to hire people. And more people are hired.

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should be making it ease tkwror hire them. So we need, for

:16:14.:16:24.
:16:24.:16:27.

example... ALL TALK AT ONCE Can I move onto Greece. We all know

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that if the eurozone goes south, that whatever our economic policy

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here, it's bad news for Britain. Does the Labour Party have a

:16:35.:16:39.

position on Greece's future in the eurozone? Is it your view that

:16:39.:16:43.

Greece should continue with the austerity pact and stay in the

:16:43.:16:47.

eurozone or actually, that's just going to be so painful it should

:16:47.:16:51.

get out? There is an anxiety that the obsession with austerity will

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be very short lived and might be self-defeating not just in terms of

:16:56.:17:00.

the growth agenda across Europe, but possibly provoking a reaction

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from Greece... There is a reaction already. We know the situation...

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Let me explain. It's not necessary for Labour to have a policy. I'm

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just asking whether you have. my point of view I think it would

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be disastrous to see the eurozone breaking up. It would be very bad

:17:16.:17:22.

to see... You're opposed to the anti-austerity party's in Greece?

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think the key thing, without getting embroiled in the

:17:25.:17:29.

maccinations of Greek politics, the key thing is there has to be more

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effect made to find a longer term solution. Trying to extricate

:17:33.:17:37.

Greece from the euro would then put the spotlight on what's happening

:17:37.:17:41.

in Spain, in Italy and elsewhere, Ireland, Portugal, you name it.

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Once one country leaves and there's a sense of that exit door there,

:17:46.:17:51.

it's the fear of contagion. That's not what the Germans are saying and

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they're the ones picking up the bills. Speaking personally, should

:17:55.:17:59.

Greece still make a go of this austerity deal or should it pack it

:17:59.:18:05.

in and leave the euro? Greece is going to have to face a long time

:18:05.:18:08.

of austerity whatever it does. There are no easy choices facing

:18:08.:18:13.

Greece. There would be a great deal of disruption if it left the euro.

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And it wouldn't be, that wouldn't make it possible to avoid austerity.

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I think they face a very unenviable choices, but there are wider

:18:23.:18:28.

questions of the future of the euro more generally. JP Morgan, I want

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to finish on that, you've seen the 2 billion loss again. What is the

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difference between an investment bank and a casino? I think that,

:18:40.:18:43.

hopefully, we're getting to a position where investment banks are

:18:43.:18:47.

going to be ring-fence add way from the retail part of the economy, the

:18:47.:18:50.

thing that cash machines and all the rest of it. We've had the

:18:50.:18:54.

investment banking and retail banking world so linked that we

:18:54.:18:58.

need to pull it... That's not the right answer. Shall I give you the

:18:58.:19:02.

right answer? One is a well managed and has effective risk controls.

:19:02.:19:09.

The other is an investment bank. ( Boom-boom.

:19:09.:19:13.

Right. Who's the author of that wonderful definition? I think we

:19:14.:19:18.

got it on Twitter. We're not very original here! All right. Are we

:19:18.:19:22.

saying goodbye to Chris Leslie now? It's been a pleasure. Thank you for

:19:22.:19:25.

having me stphr. Parting is such sweet sorry.

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Sometimes we're a party leader stands on an issue and where they

:19:31.:19:34.

want him to stand is like instructions for line dancing, step

:19:34.:19:38.

to the left, move to the right, just spin on the spot. Michael

:19:38.:19:43.

Howard is nodding. He knows I speak the truth on this issue. Since the

:19:43.:19:46.

Budget and bad local election results the call for David Cameron

:19:46.:19:51.

has been resolutely to move right, right, right. But will he? Should

:19:51.:19:57.

he? Gyles has been finding out. A PM doesn't just have to run a

:19:57.:20:00.

country, but a party. If that's the Conservative Party, then it means

:20:00.:20:05.

keeping a very broad range of views all happy under one banner. Never

:20:05.:20:08.

is that job harder than when things aren't going your way in the

:20:08.:20:12.

country and the people paying the political price are your foot

:20:12.:20:14.

soldiers, who can go from Councillor to critic in the space

:20:14.:20:18.

of a count. Since the Budget the Conservatives have gained a

:20:19.:20:24.

reputation for incompetence. Many people who are not natural

:20:24.:20:27.

Conservatives assume the Conservatives support the better

:20:27.:20:30.

off, they're a bit heartless. But they think they're competent and

:20:30.:20:34.

they get votes from people who say, I don't terribly like their outlook

:20:34.:20:38.

on life, but they know how to run things. When they lose that bit of

:20:38.:20:45.

their reputation, as they did for example in the 1990s, they're sunk.

:20:45.:20:49.

So would a so-called right shift, a move to more stridently

:20:49.:20:54.

Conservative views on tax, public spending and society give the core

:20:54.:20:58.

and possibly voters a window of assurance about the future? For

:20:58.:21:03.

some it's not even about the right, the problem is the middle. At the

:21:03.:21:06.

top of the party there is almost an obsession with capturing the centre

:21:06.:21:11.

ground. I think that drives us to take our eye off the ball

:21:11.:21:16.

occasionally, off those big issues and we get detracted at looking at

:21:16.:21:21.

issues, such as the redefinition of marriage, or Lord's reform or wind

:21:21.:21:25.

turbines, which actually, don't make much stopbs people outside.

:21:25.:21:29.

That's not their main concern in the street. They're not worried

:21:29.:21:32.

about the red benches. They're more worried about the red lines on

:21:32.:21:36.

their monthly statements. contribution is let's be positive,

:21:36.:21:40.

let's say what can make Britain a better place. Let's not be

:21:40.:21:43.

ideological. There are good ideas out there. They're sometimes called

:21:43.:21:46.

right, sometimes left. Let's go for the common ground. That's where

:21:46.:21:49.

more people are in support and recognise where the common ground

:21:49.:21:54.

is now. It's not where some people say the centre ground is. Such

:21:55.:21:58.

voices stress they're still supportive of the PM but keen to

:21:58.:22:02.

give him options. The party doesn't need to lurch to the right.

:22:02.:22:05.

Elections are fought on the centre ground. David Cameron is more

:22:05.:22:09.

popular with the public than Conservative Party grandees and

:22:09.:22:12.

colleagues should remember that. Divided parties lose. That's not in

:22:12.:22:15.

the interest of our party. Personally I don't think it's in

:22:15.:22:19.

the interest of our country. Anyone who thinks previous party leaders

:22:19.:22:21.

haven't presided over their own tugs of war between the party's

:22:22.:22:25.

wings are delewding themselves. The skill is to be either strong enough

:22:25.:22:30.

to hold the line you want... lady's not for turning. Or allow

:22:30.:22:36.

both sides a few victories to hold balance. Which path David Cameron

:22:36.:22:40.

favours following may be determined less by convincing Conservative

:22:40.:22:47.

argument, and more by the convines of what coalition will allow.

:22:47.:22:51.

-- confines of what coalition will allow. What do you say to Tories

:22:51.:22:56.

who want a more robust Toryism? What the Government has got to do,

:22:56.:22:59.

what any Government should do, is per sue the policies which are

:22:59.:23:04.

right for the country. That's got to determine what policies you put

:23:04.:23:09.

into place. It's complicated by the fact we have a coalition Government.

:23:09.:23:12.

I support this coalition. I'm in the a great fan of coalitions in

:23:12.:23:15.

general. I'd much prefer there to be a single party Conservative

:23:15.:23:19.

Government. We take that for granted, you'd want that. I would.

:23:19.:23:25.

If we had a majority, but we didn't get a majority. So you have to have

:23:25.:23:28.

compromises in coalition. You know the criticism of your colleagues,

:23:28.:23:31.

you know this as well as I do, they know they're in coalition. They

:23:31.:23:34.

know they can't get everything. They can't get everything for the

:23:34.:23:38.

very good reason they didn't win the election. Exactly. But they

:23:38.:23:44.

feel that the Lib Dems, who make up a sixth of Parliament, are getting

:23:44.:23:47.

a lot more than they're getting, that Mr Cameron listens to the Lib

:23:47.:23:51.

Dems a lot more than he does his own backbenchs. What do you say to

:23:51.:23:55.

that? I'm not sure that's right. I'm right in saying that's the

:23:55.:23:59.

feeling, correct? I think people take that view. I'm not sure it's

:23:59.:24:01.

right. You put yourself in the shoes of the Prime Minister, he's

:24:01.:24:05.

got to try and do what's right for the cub tri-- country. He know

:24:05.:24:10.

what's he think sz right. He has to take into account the views of

:24:10.:24:14.

coalition partners. On issues like Lord's reform or gay marriage, are

:24:14.:24:17.

these things the coalition should pursue in the particular economic

:24:17.:24:22.

climate we've been talking about? Well, I don't know to what extent

:24:22.:24:26.

Lord's reform is going to be pushed through. It seems to be a bit of an

:24:26.:24:33.

open question. You don't sound too keen on it. Well, all the parties

:24:33.:24:36.

work committed to it in their manifestos last time. That's

:24:36.:24:39.

perfectly true. We're going to have a bill. It's going to start in the

:24:39.:24:44.

House of Commons. We'll have to see what happens to it. You don't sound

:24:44.:24:47.

convinced. I agree with those who've said that people in the

:24:47.:24:50.

street are worried about much other things at this particular time.

:24:50.:24:54.

I'll take that was a yes. Gay marriage, is that a core

:24:54.:24:58.

Conservative principle? No, it's not. But it's not in the Queen's

:24:58.:25:00.

Speech. The Government is consulting about it. It's a

:25:00.:25:04.

perfectly reasonable thing to consult about. A lot of people hold

:25:04.:25:09.

up bar ris Johnson and say look, London is a Labour city, but he won

:25:09.:25:15.

London with a strong populist Tory message. What do you say? I think

:25:15.:25:22.

that, look, London was essentially ape contest between two person --

:25:22.:25:26.

essentially a contest between two personalities. It was the nearest

:25:26.:25:31.

thing we have in this country to a presidential election. You vote

:25:31.:25:35.

individually. You vote directly for the individuals not indirectly as

:25:35.:25:40.

we normally do. So personalities played a part in that election to a

:25:40.:25:43.

greater extent than is usual in our politics. Boris won because he's

:25:43.:25:50.

Boris. Are you content to put the current woes of the Conservative-

:25:50.:25:56.

led coalition down to mid-term blues or are you not worried there

:25:56.:26:02.

is something more fundamental afoot, that these are tough times, people

:26:02.:26:06.

may be prepared to live with tough times if they see a light at the

:26:06.:26:10.

end of the tunnel, but if the Government gets a reputation for

:26:10.:26:13.

incompetence and being out of touch, that's worse than just mid-term

:26:13.:26:17.

blues? Obviously, that's a danger. All governments go through rough

:26:17.:26:24.

patches. That's why the term "mid- term blues" has become such an

:26:24.:26:29.

accepted part of our political jargon. The big question is a lot

:26:29.:26:32.

of governments come out of those rough patches and recover and go on

:26:32.:26:36.

to win the next election. Not all governments do. I'm confident that

:26:36.:26:39.

this is a rough patch, out of which this Government will come.

:26:39.:26:43.

there was an interesting feature of the elections for Labour, which is

:26:43.:26:49.

not to the Conservatives' advantage, which is once again Labour began to

:26:49.:26:54.

establish itself in a party strong in every part of the country. They

:26:54.:26:59.

held onto Glasgow. They did well in the west of Scotland. They took

:26:59.:27:01.

back South Wales. They increased their position in the north of

:27:01.:27:06.

England. They started winning seats again in the Midlands and the south.

:27:06.:27:09.

Whereas increasingly your party looks like a regional party of

:27:09.:27:14.

London and the south. No-one is going to pretepbld that the local

:27:14.:27:17.

elections were a triumph for the Labour Party. I'm saying is that a

:27:17.:27:22.

trend, does that make you pause to think, this could be more than mid-

:27:22.:27:25.

term blues? Well, nobody knows. That's an honest answer! Nobody

:27:25.:27:30.

knows. My take on it, I'm confident that the Government can recover.

:27:30.:27:36.

Nobody knows for sure. The local elections were not a triumph. We

:27:36.:27:39.

have to learn lessons from what's happened in the last few weeks. I

:27:39.:27:42.

think the Government will ref cover, but we'll come back, no doubt in

:27:42.:27:46.

two or three years' time and know the answer. In two or three years'

:27:46.:27:49.

time when the coalition parties go their separate way to fight the

:27:49.:27:52.

election as separate parties and we're agreed they'll do that,

:27:52.:27:57.

correct? Yes. Should the Conservatives include in their

:27:57.:28:06.

manifesto a rev dumb on Europe - in -- referendum on Europe -in or out?

:28:06.:28:09.

You're asking me to write the manifesto two or three years out.

:28:09.:28:13.

I'm asking what you think? depends entirely on the

:28:13.:28:16.

circumstances at that time. It might be a sensible thing to do at

:28:16.:28:20.

that time. It might be idiotic. it just a matter of principle?

:28:20.:28:26.

at all. One thing I think is pretty clear, lots are going to happen to

:28:26.:28:29.

the European Union between now and the next election. There are going

:28:29.:28:32.

to be many developments. In the light of those developments we

:28:32.:28:36.

should decide that question. 2015 we may not recognise it.

:28:36.:28:40.

knows. Indeed. I don't know. Whoever thought a

:28:40.:28:44.

poll significance would tell me that, honesty has broken out.

:28:44.:28:51.

Police officers from every force in England and Wales are gathering for

:28:51.:28:52.

their annual conference. Theresa May is due to address them on

:28:52.:28:56.

Wednesday in what's likely to be a tense encounter. It follows the

:28:56.:29:00.

march in London last week of 30,000 police officers, protesting at cuts

:29:00.:29:05.

in the service. Police officers cannot strike. Such is the feeling

:29:05.:29:10.

within the organisation that there are plans to ballot members on the

:29:10.:29:12.

subject this Autumn. Paul McKeever is Chairman of the

:29:12.:29:15.

Police Federation of England and Wales. He joins us from our

:29:15.:29:25.
:29:25.:29:27.

Southampton newsroom. Welcome. What kind of reception are you going to

:29:27.:29:30.

give the Home Secretary this time? The Home Secretary hopefully is

:29:30.:29:34.

somebody who will listen. You have a former Home Secretary there,

:29:34.:29:37.

Michael Howard, somebody who we held in very high regard indeed. He

:29:37.:29:41.

was very successful Home Secretary. He used to listen to us. He would

:29:41.:29:45.

meet with us and listen. We hope the Home Secretary will do the same.

:29:45.:29:49.

Michael Howard didn't have to preside over huge cuts. We even had

:29:49.:29:53.

Labour in here earlier saying that even they would have to cut the

:29:53.:29:59.

police. Not by as much, but they wo. I ask again, what kind of reception,

:29:59.:30:03.

what mood are your members in in the way they're going to treat the

:30:03.:30:06.

Home Secretary when she arrives? She is the Home Secretary and we

:30:06.:30:10.

have to recognise her office. The questions will be asked of the Home

:30:10.:30:13.

Secretary will be clear. Why have the coalition Government given

:30:13.:30:17.

policing such a low priority? Why is it they've chosen to increase

:30:17.:30:20.

some budgets like overseas development by 34%, which would be

:30:20.:30:25.

a larger budget than policing? Why, when we're facing what is in effect

:30:25.:30:28.

a four-year pay freeze and additional contributions to

:30:28.:30:32.

pensions, like everybody else in the public sector, why are we

:30:32.:30:35.

facing pay reviews taking more money out of our pockets? We're

:30:35.:30:40.

trying to be fair about this. When the coalition came into office, we

:30:40.:30:44.

listened to Sir Denis O'Connor who said we could cut by 12%, we

:30:44.:30:47.

accepted that. To see 20% and more, it will be disastrous for policing.

:30:47.:30:52.

Let me put that to the former Home Secretary and Conservative peer.

:30:52.:30:56.

Why is a Conservative-led Government cutting the police

:30:56.:31:06.
:31:06.:31:12.

budget by 20% and increasing Thank you very much about the nice

:31:12.:31:17.

things he seed about me. The Prime Minister has said and I agree with

:31:17.:31:24.

him that we're not going to balance our budget on the world's poor.:

:31:24.:31:29.

Will you on the back of the police instead. The Home Secretary had an

:31:29.:31:32.

independent look at the terms and conditions of the police and that

:31:32.:31:36.

has come forth with some recommendations and she's wanting

:31:36.:31:41.

to put those recommendations into effect. I am sure she'll listen to

:31:41.:31:45.

what the police have to say. The police have to recognise that we're

:31:46.:31:53.

in very difficult times and we all have to accept.... Now the Police

:31:53.:31:57.

Federation have said they think that things can not continue as

:31:57.:32:02.

they are. It is not just the budget cuts you are against. You continue

:32:02.:32:09.

like the reforms as well? Some of the reforms are leading to a

:32:09.:32:12.

fundamental change in British policing T accountability we have

:32:12.:32:19.

is being lost by the wholesale privatisation in some forces. We

:32:19.:32:21.

are losing the resilience F you remember last year, during the

:32:22.:32:25.

riots, we managed to get 16,000 officers out on the streets to

:32:25.:32:29.

quell those riots. That is almost the number we're looking to lose

:32:29.:32:36.

over the next few years. We accept there has to be a cut. Education

:32:36.:32:46.

was set by a similar per cent. The public's safety is being put at

:32:46.:32:50.

risk by some draconian changes. you accept that the police service

:32:50.:32:55.

needs to get much more -- do you accept that the police service

:32:55.:32:59.

needs to get much more efficient? We were the first to call for a

:32:59.:33:04.

Royal Commission, to look fundamentally at policing to. Have

:33:04.:33:07.

this piecemeal change which is going on, it will lead to a

:33:07.:33:13.

different police service. We have questions about the report carried

:33:13.:33:23.

out by Tom Windsor as well. There are some real doubts in our mind

:33:23.:33:28.

that we'll be able to keep the public safe. You have a

:33:28.:33:32.

disillusioned police service. Almost every officer off duty was

:33:32.:33:39.

in London last week. 35,000 police officers trying to get across how

:33:39.:33:44.

fundamental these changes are and that public safety is being put at

:33:44.:33:48.

risk. You have a police service saying we understand there has to

:33:48.:33:53.

be a cut. You have got the head of the Police Federation there telling

:33:53.:33:56.

me he understands there are some restrictive practises they have to

:33:56.:34:02.

get rid of. Despite that attitude, which is not exactly an attitude

:34:02.:34:06.

akin to Arthur Scargill's miners many years ago. You have managed to

:34:06.:34:10.

get 30,000 police on to the streets of London against a Conservative-

:34:10.:34:14.

led Government. Something has gone wrong. I can understand that police

:34:14.:34:17.

officers feel very strongly about these things, just like the others

:34:17.:34:22.

that you mentioned at the beginning of this interview, doctors, nurses,

:34:22.:34:26.

others feel strongly. We live in difficult times, I am afraid.

:34:26.:34:31.

People who do feel strongly are nevertheless going to have to

:34:31.:34:34.

accept that the world has changed and because the world has changed,

:34:34.:34:39.

we've got to change the way we do things. There has to be a dialogue.

:34:39.:34:42.

I am sure the Home Secretary will listen to what Paul and his

:34:42.:34:46.

colleagues say. At the end of the day, we have to recognise that

:34:46.:34:50.

really difficult measures have to be taken because of the

:34:50.:34:54.

circumstances we're in. Very briefly. I have to say we cannot

:34:54.:35:03.

understand why the Government has given policing such a last -- low

:35:03.:35:09.

priority. The protection of citizens is at risk. Well, we're

:35:09.:35:15.

going to have to let Michael Howard go. He worked hard. Eric Pickles

:35:15.:35:21.

would be proud of him - your productivity has been huge. We saw

:35:21.:35:24.

all revelations about the relationships between the press and

:35:24.:35:28.

politicians since David Cameron came to power, including how he

:35:28.:35:34.

signs off his text messages. Yes, we deal with the big issues of our

:35:34.:35:44.

times. This afternoon we will see how it worked out when Tony Blair

:35:44.:35:48.

was at Number Ten. Alastair Campbell will be in front

:35:48.:35:53.

of the bench. You must have been aware when you were Tory leader of

:35:53.:35:56.

this incredibly close, deep relationship between News

:35:56.:36:01.

International, the Murdoch organisation, and the Government?

:36:01.:36:06.

Who could be unaware of it. Certainly, I was, yes. Was there

:36:06.:36:10.

nothing you could do? You needed the support of the Sun and other

:36:11.:36:18.

papers. Sure. Was it impossible to break into? That's right. I failed.

:36:18.:36:24.

Do you think that had an impact, on for example the 2005 election?

:36:24.:36:30.

think you can exaggerate the extent... The Sun took a while to

:36:30.:36:36.

make up its mind in 2005, didn't it? I had some hopes at some point.

:36:36.:36:41.

I will tell you, here is a scope for this programme, Andrew.

:36:41.:36:45.

Excellent! I asked Rupert Murdoch directly for his support at the

:36:45.:36:49.

2005 election. He said, my heart is with you, but I am afraid my head

:36:49.:36:58.

isn't. So he'd had enough of new Labour by

:36:58.:37:04.

then, he kind of wanted to go with you, but he wanted, he thought

:37:04.:37:06.

better stick with Labour. How interesting.

:37:06.:37:10.

Well, we will see what Mr Campbell has to say this afternoon. In these

:37:10.:37:14.

days t Prime Minister didn't do texting and there wasn't so many e-

:37:14.:37:20.

mails around. I didn't know how to text in 205. I saw you doing it --

:37:20.:37:26.

2005. I saw you doing it on the way in here today. How did you sign it

:37:26.:37:31.

off? It was an e-mail. As usual it will be a busy time for us hard-

:37:31.:37:38.

working and I say it again "hard- working" political journalists Mr

:37:38.:37:41.

Pickles. Tomorrow will see Ed Miliband shuffle his Cabinet. Peter

:37:41.:37:46.

Hain says he will stand down. Keep an eye out for whether Blairites

:37:46.:37:50.

still have a job. On Thursday Francois Hollande is oh -- on

:37:50.:37:55.

Tuesday Francois Hollande is sworn in as France's new President. He is

:37:55.:38:01.

expected to hold emergency talks with Angela Merkel to discuss the

:38:01.:38:06.

continuing crisis. On Wednesday the Treasury will await the employment

:38:06.:38:11.

figures as well as the Bank of England's inflation report.

:38:11.:38:16.

Then in the evening, the Conservative 1922 Committee, a sort

:38:16.:38:22.

of trade union of Tory backbenchers, will vote for positions on the

:38:22.:38:28.

executive. The Tory leadership will hope for some loyalists to try and

:38:28.:38:34.

steady the ship. Let's get the views of two hard-working political

:38:34.:38:39.

journalists. Very hard working - I am told Mr Pickles. Amber Elliott

:38:39.:38:42.

from Total Politics magazine and the Guardian's Nick Watt.

:38:42.:38:46.

First of all, are we going to get a Labour reshuffle? Yes, I think we

:38:46.:38:51.

are. We know there is a vacancy. Peter Hain has said he wants to

:38:51.:38:58.

resign as Shadow Welsh Secretary. There probably will be a reshuffle.

:38:58.:39:02.

You will perhaps look at a reshuffle or the thinking about a

:39:02.:39:06.

reshuffle after that speech tomorrow. The big question is; does

:39:06.:39:11.

it go further than filling the slot vacated by Peter Hain? What the

:39:11.:39:14.

Labour Party sources are saying is, look we had a big reshuffle last

:39:14.:39:19.

year f you like the 2010 reshuffle, when they brought on really

:39:19.:39:24.

talented people who were elected at the last election. Will they do

:39:24.:39:30.

something like you just said there? Is Liam Burn going to be moved

:39:30.:39:37.

aside? There's a battle going on. Blairiates today are saying we --

:39:37.:39:44.

Blairites today are saying they support him. What do you think? An

:39:44.:39:48.

extensive reshuffle or just fill the hole left behind by Peter Hain?

:39:48.:39:54.

I think we'll see a mini-reshuffle. I think Ed Miliband is happy with

:39:54.:40:00.

where his party is I think we might see Liam Burn lose one of his

:40:00.:40:03.

positions. Perhaps we will see a reshuffle there. The other thing to

:40:03.:40:08.

consider is David Miliband's role. There have been rumours and

:40:08.:40:13.

whispers about where he might head. I am hearing he is not moving.

:40:13.:40:19.

So we will not see perhaps him move up quite yet. And Nick, this new

:40:19.:40:23.

mantra from the Government, we had it from Mr Hague yesterday in the

:40:23.:40:26.

Sunday Telegraph, from Mr Pickles on the Sunday politics - that we

:40:26.:40:31.

all node to work harder, particularly chief executives need

:40:31.:40:38.

to work harder - as a spin line, how would you rate that out of ten?

:40:38.:40:43.

Zero or one? Kit not apply to you, me and Amber because we could not

:40:43.:40:47.

be working any harder. Think the Government needs to be careful. The

:40:47.:40:49.

Conservative Party like to think of themselves as the friend of

:40:49.:40:52.

business and they seem to have found themselves getting into a

:40:52.:40:56.

spat with business leaders. It is interesting that Peter Mandelson

:40:56.:41:01.

said one of the reasons high the Labour Party lost the last election

:41:01.:41:04.

is because they didn't have any business leaders on their side. You

:41:04.:41:08.

had the Queen speech last week, there appeared to be, as far as

:41:08.:41:12.

businesses were concerned, not enough measures in there to promote

:41:12.:41:17.

growth, so they are not happy. If the Tories were in power on their

:41:17.:41:21.

own, you would probably see some serious supply side reforms coming

:41:21.:41:28.

through. We talk about the report by the venture capitalist, talking

:41:28.:41:31.

about it being easier to sack worker who are not working hard.

:41:31.:41:35.

They are in coalition, so they are slightly ham strung. Cannot do all

:41:35.:41:39.

they want to do, can the Conservatives. They need to think

:41:39.:41:42.

carefully. A Government at war with business - not really the right

:41:42.:41:46.

place to be. Particularly a Conservative-led Government. Amber,

:41:46.:41:52.

these elections to this 192 committee it is really a - it is a

:41:52.:41:57.

-- 1922 Committee, it is a test. What are they going to do? Are they

:41:57.:42:04.

going to put a bunch of loyalists on to that executive? There is a

:42:04.:42:09.

group among the David Cameron lot called the 301 Group. They tend to

:42:09.:42:12.

be loyal. Perhaps they are ambitious about where they want to

:42:12.:42:16.

go. They are standing for a lot of the executive positions. There is a

:42:16.:42:20.

feeling perhaps it has something to do with David Cameron trying to put

:42:20.:42:24.

his stamp on the backbenches. The other thing is there is an Old

:42:24.:42:27.

Guard there at the moment. Perhaps we should not just see it as

:42:27.:42:31.

Cameron's people trying to put their mark on this, but a younger

:42:31.:42:37.

group of 2010 intake MPs coming up, saying we want a bigger role in our

:42:37.:42:42.

backbenchers. I think you have worked hard enough. Take a quick

:42:42.:42:48.

tea break and be back for another 18-hour shift. With us are Monday's

:42:48.:42:54.

members, Laura Sandys, Jenny Willott and for Labour Kate Green.

:42:54.:43:00.

Welcome to you all. Are you excited about the reshuffle? I don't think

:43:00.:43:04.

it is the biggest story we are thinking about today. We have a

:43:04.:43:11.

competent team across the Labour Party. Are you waiting by your

:43:11.:43:15.

phone? I am not waiting by my phone. Who ever it is... I am very happy

:43:15.:43:20.

with the job I am doing. Who ever is doing whatever job we are a

:43:20.:43:25.

strong team and we are sharing ideas together. That is

:43:25.:43:29.

controversial for a member to say. Just ask you to be independent for

:43:29.:43:35.

a few seconds - would you like, in your own view, to see a

:43:35.:43:42.

minireshuffle or an extensive reshuffle? I -- mini-reshuffle or

:43:42.:43:47.

an extensive reshuffle? I don't think there is any need for an

:43:47.:43:50.

extensive reshuffle. We are getting our message across to more and more

:43:50.:43:55.

of the voters. I don't see the need for a major reshuffle. Would you

:43:55.:44:00.

like to see David Miliband? I think he has tremendous strengths. Would

:44:00.:44:06.

you like to see him brought back in? I am happy to see him in.

:44:06.:44:10.

are happy in or out? I think David has his own views. Is there

:44:10.:44:15.

anything about David you would not be happy about? He must have the

:44:15.:44:19.

opportunity... You will not express a view. He will be a huge asset to

:44:19.:44:25.

the team, but it is up to David to say what he wants to. Even I know

:44:25.:44:28.

that bit. I was interested in your opinion. That is what we do on

:44:28.:44:33.

shows like this. Tell me about this working harder nonsense? What it is,

:44:33.:44:39.

it's about as a country we need to regain some of our ambition. I

:44:39.:44:44.

didn't see the exact quote directed at business. No William Hague

:44:44.:44:49.

talked about justice King, the person who runs Sainsbury's. He

:44:49.:44:53.

picked out the head of the British Chambers of Commerce and said, they

:44:53.:44:56.

should work harder. Why are you picking a fight with people who

:44:56.:45:01.

already work hard? Having run two businesses myself I know how hard

:45:01.:45:04.

business people work. What is important is that we get that

:45:04.:45:10.

sepbts of ambition internationally. I think -- sense of ambition

:45:10.:45:13.

internationally. There is a lot Government can do when it comes to

:45:13.:45:17.

exports. That is an area we have not, as a country, over the past 15

:45:17.:45:23.

years we have left it. coalition Government didn't say

:45:23.:45:27.

Government and ministers and business - we've got to get

:45:27.:45:33.

together more and push the export drive. It said, you business folk

:45:33.:45:43.

I can't say what William Hague intended by his comments. What bit

:45:43.:45:47.

didn't you understand? You can't solve everything by legislation.

:45:47.:45:51.

Government can't solve everything itself. In my constituency I

:45:51.:45:54.

represent a city centre. There say huge diverse range of businesses

:45:54.:45:59.

there. Actually, a lot of the medium sized businesss are doing

:45:59.:46:02.

well. They're very ambitious, taking on new staff. When they can

:46:02.:46:06.

get bank loans, they're expanding very often. The issues facing

:46:06.:46:10.

businesses and holding some of them back are a whole range of different

:46:11.:46:14.

issues, many of which are outside the hands of the Government itself.

:46:14.:46:18.

I think that it's up to everybody to be playing their part in it to

:46:18.:46:22.

make sure that we build the economy. You can't solve everything by

:46:22.:46:27.

legislation? Absolutely. Do you go to Lib Dem conferences? I've been

:46:27.:46:30.

going to Lib Dem conferences for years. Every problem there is,

:46:30.:46:34.

there's a demand for legislation. think it's clear thaw can't

:46:34.:46:38.

actually solve everything by legislation. You say that -- will

:46:38.:46:42.

you say that at the Lib Dem conference this year? We have been

:46:42.:46:45.

saying for years, if you have too much legislation you can make

:46:46.:46:49.

things very, very difficult for businesses. Too much regulation

:46:49.:46:54.

makes things more complicated. do you think about the work harder

:46:54.:46:57.

mantra? Businesses in my constituency will be shocked and

:46:57.:47:00.

offended. The reason some of them are sitting on piles of cash is

:47:00.:47:05.

because of a lack of confidence. And uncertainty. Exactly, Andrew.

:47:05.:47:09.

The smaller businesses are saying they can't get credit. They're

:47:09.:47:11.

struggling many of them to get finance out of the banks, despite

:47:11.:47:15.

the reforms that the Government apaifrptly has tried to put in.

:47:15.:47:18.

totally agree that legislation is not what we need. What we need is

:47:19.:47:21.

growth. That comes from businesses. One of the measures I would have

:47:21.:47:26.

suggested one looks at into the future is how we kin sent vice

:47:26.:47:33.

those cash mountains -- can incentivise those cash mountains to

:47:33.:47:38.

be releezed. We used to have the business expansion scheme. One way

:47:38.:47:43.

to do it may be not to lecture businessmen to work harder and

:47:43.:47:47.

encourage them to invest more. would love to see some of those

:47:47.:47:51.

businesses invest in their supply chain, in smaller businesses within

:47:51.:47:54.

their supply environment. Well, supply chain interesting, because I

:47:54.:47:58.

want to move on, don't go away. Talking about the biggest supply

:47:58.:48:02.

chain in the country in a second. In a little over an hour's time the

:48:02.:48:06.

Defence Secretary will be giving a statement to the House of Lords on

:48:06.:48:09.

defence spending. The details are pretty closely guarding, but the

:48:09.:48:13.

one thing to come out over the weekend is that Mr Hammond believes

:48:13.:48:20.

he's found a way of making the �38 billion black hole in the MoD

:48:20.:48:24.

budget disappear. Sent this magic man to Greece, if this is true.

:48:24.:48:27.

Here on the Daily Politics, we're old and suspicious enough to want

:48:27.:48:35.

to wait and read the fine print. Commander John Muxworthy Commander

:48:35.:48:37.

John Muxworthy of the UK National Defence Association, which

:48:37.:48:40.

campaigns on defence spending and strategy is in our Plymouth studio.

:48:40.:48:46.

Thank you for joining us. Do you think, is he going to pull off this

:48:46.:48:51.

magic, is the procurement budget back on track? There's a well known

:48:51.:48:58.

saying that I'll corrupt that it's financial talk that, if you can

:48:58.:49:03.

make anything you like, there's lie, damn lies and Treasury statistics.

:49:03.:49:07.

If they've clear today fine, but what is so damaging is the cuts

:49:07.:49:10.

that they've done to the military, the navy in particular, not just

:49:10.:49:15.

because it's my service, but it's all interdependent. The savings,

:49:15.:49:20.

the cuts are supposed to have provided whether it's �38 billion

:49:20.:49:22.

or whatever, I don't necessarily believe it, but the savings have

:49:23.:49:27.

not been justified. The throw ago way of Ark Royal and the Harriers,

:49:27.:49:30.

for instance, didn't save money. It cost the Libyan campaign three

:49:30.:49:35.

times what it would have cost if we hadn't had that cost. It wasn't a

:49:35.:49:41.

saving. The other thing, if I might add it, when there were the Nimrods

:49:41.:49:45.

that they didn't want and they changed their minds, they threw

:49:45.:49:50.

away �4 billion, now that emaciated the armed forces, so did the

:49:50.:49:55.

carriers and there are no savings. It's not right because defence is

:49:55.:49:57.

the first priority of any Government and so says the Prime

:49:57.:50:00.

Minister. Indeed. Of course, we've just had

:50:00.:50:03.

the police on the programme saying they're the first front line

:50:03.:50:07.

service as well. You all seem to be, any time TV presenters will be

:50:07.:50:10.

claiming to be the first fronts line, though that obviously won't

:50:10.:50:14.

be too credible. You talk about the cuts. As a commander, you're a

:50:14.:50:19.

naval man, you're getting two of the biggest aircraft carriers the

:50:19.:50:23.

Royal Navy has ever had in its long and distinguished history. Thank

:50:23.:50:27.

goodness. You have astute class subMarines, which are state-of-the-

:50:27.:50:32.

art, even Americans don't have subMarines as good of that. You

:50:32.:50:35.

have a destroyer which cost �1 billion a piece, ahead of anything

:50:35.:50:38.

else in the field, what more do you want? It's not nearly enough.

:50:38.:50:42.

There's a three to one ratio in anything in the military. If you

:50:42.:50:47.

wanted a ship on station for some operation, you need three. Because

:50:47.:50:50.

one will be in maintenance, one will be training and it's the same

:50:50.:50:54.

with service personnel. We can't afford three aircraft carriers,

:50:54.:50:59.

commander. We'll probably make do with two, but it's the silly idea

:50:59.:51:03.

that we would then maybe put them into storage. Of course, I missed

:51:03.:51:08.

out of course, you're getting the new jump jet strike 35 fighter as

:51:08.:51:11.

well. That means you won't have to put one in storage, you'll have the

:51:11.:51:14.

two. There's no logic to that. Don't get me... That would take a

:51:14.:51:18.

whole new programme. What I have to say, they're trying to get defence

:51:18.:51:23.

on the cheap. Give me the one example you said of the type 45

:51:23.:51:30.

which are superb ships. Six isn't enough because when SDSR98, the

:51:30.:51:35.

really serious review, because SDR 10 was rubbish, just financially

:51:35.:51:41.

driven, merely financially driven, the navy asked for 14 type 45s,

:51:41.:51:45.

they were cut down to 12, that was rdge. That was going to cost �12

:51:45.:51:50.

billion. In fact, they then changed their minds, the Government changed

:51:50.:51:54.

their minds, not the board, they were well advised, it took three

:51:54.:51:58.

years for that decision, but now we get six. And the price has doubled,

:51:58.:52:03.

not because of the military's fault, but because of Government, the MoD

:52:03.:52:07.

and Treasury constantly changing their minds. All right. Defence is

:52:07.:52:11.

being emaciated. All right. Stick with us. I'm going to speak to the

:52:11.:52:15.

politicians and see what you think. When you were campaigning at the

:52:15.:52:19.

last election, did you think you would be pre-siding in a Government

:52:19.:52:23.

with this cutting down process by 20%, giving us the smallest Army

:52:24.:52:29.

since we fought the Boar war. Which didn't go very well I should point

:52:29.:52:33.

out. Having worked at the Centre for Defence Studies for many years,

:52:33.:52:37.

actually I think we needed a realignment of our capabilities. I

:52:37.:52:43.

appreciate that we had �38 billion of black hole. No-one wants defence

:52:43.:52:47.

to be cut, but we've got to rationalise it and also, in my view,

:52:47.:52:51.

make it much more flexible and nimble for a different set of

:52:51.:52:55.

defence requirements and defence threats that we have. He says it's

:52:55.:52:59.

going to be too small, we won't have enough. To do what? I think we

:52:59.:53:03.

should be looking very clearly at what we need to do in terms of

:53:03.:53:08.

international trade, which is very much the naval sector. We need to

:53:08.:53:14.

be looking to invest more in cyberdefence and we need tone sure

:53:14.:53:18.

that we have a capability that's flexible. We have got a lot of

:53:18.:53:22.

static or have in the past had a lot of static platforms and I think

:53:22.:53:27.

that actually, what we're doing is designing a defence system for the

:53:27.:53:33.

future, but yes, appreciate it's on a budget. We still spend more on

:53:33.:53:39.

defence than 99% of the world's countries. About �40 billion a year.

:53:39.:53:43.

All we ever hear from the military is we want more and we never get a

:53:43.:53:47.

great bang for the buck. Here's a radical idea to get steam coming

:53:47.:53:51.

out of your ears, why do we need three separate services in Britain

:53:51.:53:56.

now, with all the generals and admirals and all their, wing

:53:56.:54:01.

commanders, why don't we have one massive UK/US style marine force

:54:01.:54:05.

that does everything? That would be brilliant. I wish we had the

:54:05.:54:09.

numbers of the US Marine Corps. We have just flogged all our Harriers

:54:09.:54:15.

to them for �1 million an aircraft. Do you know how much it cost us?

:54:15.:54:20.

�20 million. The approach this this has been wrong. The whole country

:54:20.:54:24.

lacks military experience now. 30, 40 years ago, they'd been in World

:54:24.:54:28.

War II, they'd had conscription. Now we don't have it. There's no

:54:28.:54:33.

understanding in politics on the whole, there are a handful of

:54:34.:54:37.

people in Parliament who have got military experience. We, the UK

:54:37.:54:41.

national defence association, with admirals, generals, civilians, all

:54:41.:54:48.

sorts of people, have submitted seven major reports in detail, by

:54:49.:54:54.

experienced people. It's all been turned down and ignored. This is

:54:54.:54:59.

where it is going wrong. One quick one... I'm sorry. I'm sorry to

:54:59.:55:02.

interrupt. We've given you a fair run. I need to move on and get on

:55:02.:55:07.

some other subjects. Thank you for joining us. You're welcome. Let me

:55:07.:55:13.

come to you, aren't you getting concerned that the longer time goes

:55:13.:55:19.

on, the more elusive economic growth seems to be, that you're

:55:19.:55:23.

doing the cuts, though you've only just started, you've put taxes up.

:55:23.:55:27.

We have an economy that's flatlining. We saw some progress

:55:27.:55:30.

last year, which has gone backwards, which is disappointing. There are

:55:30.:55:33.

measures both in the Budget and in the Queen's Speech that will make a

:55:33.:55:38.

difference. There's going to be a significant amount of investment in

:55:38.:55:41.

renewable technologies, in the Green Investment Bank. The

:55:41.:55:44.

Government's bringing forward legislation... You don't expect

:55:44.:55:49.

that to kick off economic growth, do you? I think it will make a real

:55:49.:55:52.

part in some parts of the country. Some of the green jobs we've looked

:55:52.:55:58.

at recently, which you're so proud of, have cost �300,000 a piece.

:55:58.:56:04.

don't know what in particular you're referring to, Andrew. Nick

:56:04.:56:07.

Clegg's regional development fund as well, one of the jobs he created

:56:07.:56:13.

there cost �200,000. That's not going to mop up unemployment.

:56:13.:56:16.

talking about different things now. I'm talking about both. Talking

:56:16.:56:20.

about the investment bank, the Government putting in �1 billion.

:56:20.:56:24.

How many jobs will that create? idea is that will leverage in

:56:24.:56:27.

private investment to create a pot of money that's available for

:56:27.:56:31.

invstment in jobs and new technologies. The solar power

:56:31.:56:36.

people have just said they're pulling out, they've cut the

:56:36.:56:40.

subsidies. That's not what I'm finding in my area. They have said

:56:40.:56:45.

they are pulling out. I am finding... We're going to get this

:56:45.:56:49.

economy growing through a Green Revolution? If you want to know the

:56:49.:56:52.

great renewable story is in my constituency where we have the

:56:52.:56:56.

largest windfarm in the world. 5,000 people have been coming in

:56:56.:57:00.

and out of Ramsgate harbour over the last couple of months and it is

:57:00.:57:04.

going to be, they're looking to reinvest... What are these 5,000

:57:04.:57:14.
:57:14.:57:15.

people doing, building an off-shore windfarm. They're looking to get

:57:15.:57:20.

more off the back of the reform. is seriously your investment that

:57:20.:57:24.

growth comes back to the economy because of a Green Investment Bank?

:57:24.:57:27.

There are small businesses which we support and have always supported

:57:27.:57:33.

as a coalition. The deregulation... They can't get money to invest.

:57:33.:57:37.

deregulation legislation coming through is going to be focused on

:57:37.:57:42.

them. Then you look at the big infrastructure projects.

:57:42.:57:47.

Electricity market reform will invite a lot of engineering jobs

:57:47.:57:53.

into the sector. What would Labour do to get growth going? We wouldn't

:57:53.:57:58.

have taken so much money out of the economy. And we would put it back

:57:58.:58:01.

in more quickly. The Green Investment Bank is not going to be

:58:01.:58:04.

lending for another five years. We can't wait. We need money in the

:58:04.:58:07.

economy now. Where would you get that money from? It's a mix of

:58:07.:58:11.

first, not rushing to cut rates of tax for the wealthiest and to make

:58:11.:58:16.

sure that we keep money flowing around the economy. You'd borrow

:58:16.:58:20.

more? The borrowing, the starting point, wouldn't start from here,

:58:20.:58:23.

the borrowing is larger now than the Government had planned as a

:58:23.:58:27.

result of their failure. Would you borrow more yes or no? If we

:58:28.:58:31.

started today we would live what we're inheriting from this

:58:31.:58:33.

Government, which is higher borrowing. Would you borrow more or

:58:33.:58:38.

not? I have time for one word? know you're not going to get one

:58:38.:58:42.

word. We'll leave it there. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:42.:58:45.

The One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. Jo is back

:58:45.:58:48.

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. He discusses police reform and the direction of the Conservative Party with the former Tory leader Lord Howard. And he talks to the Shadow Treasury Minister Chris Leslie about the government's austerity policy.


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