17/05/2012 Daily Politics


17/05/2012

Jo Coburn is joined by music promoter Harvey Goldsmith to discuss David Cameron's warning of 'perilous economic times' and why we love the Queen.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon. Welcome o the Daily Politics. First, the good news. The

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American car maker General Motors has announced an investment which

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will secure the future of the Vauxhall plant at Ellesmere Port,

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saving 2,000 jobs. Now the bad news. The Prime Minister's warning of

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perilous economic times ahead and says he needs to keep us safe from

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the storm brewing over Greece and the eurozone. He had this to say

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this morning. The eurozone is at a Crossroads. It

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either has to make up or it is looking at a potential break-up.

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No-one can pull in the crowds quite like the Queen. Jubilee fever hits

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the country and we'll be asking what's she got that our elected

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leaders don't. In the spirit of free speech, should we be hearing

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more of this? You know, really you have the

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charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low-grade bank

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clerk. Charming of course. Wouldn't hear that language here. All that

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in the next hour. With us for the duration is Harvey Goldsmith, music

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promoter. Welcome to the programme. He's organising one of the biggest

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parties of the summer, the Queen's Golden Jubilee celebrations and

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he's pretty well qualified. It is the Diamond Jubilee. Can't believe

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I said the Golden Jubilee and I read it out. You are the man for

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the job. Why, because you organised this. # All we need is radio Gaga...

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We will remember that, some of us who are my age, I was there

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actually, some time ago in 1985 as the grainy footage shows. Harvey,

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are you ready for the next huge challenge then organising the

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Diamond Jubilee party? I'm not doing all of it, I'm doing a facet

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of it. We are organising a two-day major festival in Hyde Park which

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is really for the family and then we are staying open to be the kind

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of overflow for the concert that's taking place outside Buckingham

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Palace because only a limited audience can go then. We are

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expecting large crowds for that. What is it like? It must be hor

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Roan dousely nerve-racking. I mean that was a long time ago. How do

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you organise them -- horrendous? Organising the event is not

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difficult when you do it for a living. Finding the right talent

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sometimes has its challenging, but organising the event, we have a

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checklist, a fantastic team of people work with me on these events.

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So that gets done. With this particular event, because there are

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so many different events going on at different places and there is

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the concern about excess crowds which is how I got involved in it

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in the first place, we are really there to soak up a lot of the

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audiences that are coming in who won't be able to get down the mall

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or won't find a place on the river to see the pageant. So we are

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organising the day time family pageant. How many people are you

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expecting? 50,000 for the concert. On the Tuesday for the final

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procession and the balcony moment, if you like, we could have anything

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from 50,000 to 150,000 people. Rather you than me. You have

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organised major events and charitable performances. What do

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you think going back to the Budget, this idea of capping tax relief on

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charitable donations? Personally, I think it's insane. What we should

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be doing is encouraging people to give to charities, support

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charities, which they do anyway. We are a fantastic nation of

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supporting causes and charities and awareness events and so on and

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there are thousands of charities. But the idea, all the time the

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Government has of using a sleedge hammer to crack a nut, is complete

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madness and doesn't make sense. Thank you very much. Stay with us

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for the rest of the show. Time for the daily quiz now. And the

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question for today is: What is I am sure you have all of those

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Harvey Goldsmith. At the end of the show, Harvey will give us the

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answer. There's no doubting the seriousness of the problems facing

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the eurozone. Questions about whether the euro can survive seem

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to get louder every day. But one people of research by an economist

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at JP Morgan Asset Management has taken a quirkier approach.

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Comparing different groups of countries to see which might be the

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best suited for a Single Currency by looking at which are the most

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economically and politically convertiant. The research suggests

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the strongest candidate for monetary union would be Latin

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America. A combination of the UK and its English-speaking offshoots,

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the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand would also work

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pretty well. The countries that used to make up the Soviet Union

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would do better than the eurozone, as would a reconstituted ot mon

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empire, even the random group of all the countries in the world that

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begin with M would make a more cohesive group than the euro area,

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how bizarre. The euro countries are bottom of the pile. We are joined

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by the BBC's Business Editor, Robert Peston who, tonight in a BBC

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Two programme, entitled The Great Euro Crash, will be exploring

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what's gone wrong. Should it never have happened, Robert? I mean

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should the countries have never formed a monetary union? Well,

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certainly from the stand point of where we are today you would have

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to say that it was a very, very, very foolish decision to go ahead.

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What one has to do is put one's self-into in a sense the minds of

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the two leaders who made the crucial decisions, Mr Cole and Mr

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Mitterrand more than 20 years ago now. What was on Francois

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Mitterrand's mind at the time was that he wanted to use monetary

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union to curb the grower power of the European Union. It was on the

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verge of becoming a more powerful country, France wanted to bind them

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in therefore to the EU in a rather more deeper way. Therefore, in

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Mitterrand's view, this was always a political project. It was all

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about effectively creating over time a United States of Europe. Had

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they been able to create that federation, arguably actually there

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would be much less of a crisis today. The problem that they've got

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is that they are still run as sovereign states and therefore for

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that reason Germany in particular is unwilling to provide the kind of

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financial support to the weaker countries that would allow us to

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get through this crisis without a complete calamity. It's the absence

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of political union that's led us to this extraordinary mess. Now,

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taking what you have just said with hindsight and that is a wonderful

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thing, you wouldn't have put the northern and southern European

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countries together. But when you look at what the immediate problems

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are, it's not a currency problem in itself is it. It's a banking

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problem, sovereign debt in that sense. That hasn't necessarily just

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come out of the fact that there was monetary union, has it? Well, you

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are absolutely right, that the borrowing, the fact that Italy,

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Spain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal, they all borrowed more than we now

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regard as sensible or affordable. They did it at exactly the same

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time as the UK borrowed more than was affordable, as did the US. It

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was an era of cheap interest rates. For those countries, the rates were

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made even cheaper by the monetary union which is why they borrowed

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wrecklessly, so it's not an accumulation of the debt, it's that

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unlike the US and the UK, as part of the eurozone, these countries

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don't have the tools to fix the job. We are able to get interest rates

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down to a record level in both countries, the US and the UK, the

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Central Bank's created tonnes of money to ease the period during

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which we are trying to get our debt down. Our currencies have fallen in

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value which makes life easier for our exporters. None of those

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adjustment mechanisms are available within the eurozone. What does it

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mean? It means that unfortunately for Greece, Portugal, Ireland,

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Spain and Italy, in order to get their debts down, it imposes a

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massively painful sequence of events on the people of those

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countries. If you can't devalue, what has to happen? The wages of

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people in those countries has to fall, perhaps by as much as 30% to

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make the companies in those countries competitive with

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Germany's. So what you get within the monetary union in the absence

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of Germany helping out the other countries is frankly extraordinary

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misery for the people of the weak countries, a misery that may well

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go on for years. On that basis, can anything be done to prevent the

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eurozone breaking up, or is it inef I believe the now? Gosh, I'll lose

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my job if I answer that question, Jo -- inevitable. The pressure, the

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forces pulling the euro apart are powerful. It's very difficult to

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see how the eurozone sticks together unless, to get back to the

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point I originally made, the Germans are prepared to use more of

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their wealth to help the other countries. If Germany is prepared

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to help, there is a chance they'd get through this. But in the

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absence of that, it's very difficult to see why the citizens

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of any of these countries are over a period potentially of years of

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personal misery, why they would think at the end of the day they

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want to persevere with this. That makes your programme essential

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viewing. Remind us when it's on? Nine o'clock, BBC Two and I hope

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that people get some sense of how we got into what is an

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extraordinary mess. Thank you very much.

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With us now is the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, Andrew

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Tyrie. Let's pick up on some of those points. We've had a fairly

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comprehensive explanation of the history of it, but in your view

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could it have been done differently in the way Robert Peston described,

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that monetary union between the southern and European countries to

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have make it work? Yes, many of us argued at the start of this project,

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even before the eurozone was created, that you needed a

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mechanism to enable countries that couldn't cope to get out, and there

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isn't one. No. That's the first point. The second point is, those

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countries that joined needed to know that they had to make very

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tough adjustments if they were going to stay in the eurozone for

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the long-term. Those adjustments are now coming home all at once

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like all the buses all arriving at the bus stop all at once. The third

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foint make -- point to make, which is crucial, which is not fully

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understood, is that it's not just a one-off check that will have to be

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made by the northern tier countries if this area is to stay together.

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Year after year, the southern tier countries are likely to perform

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somewhat less well than the northern cheques and therefore

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cheques will have to be written. sounds that you feel like Greece

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should just exit now? It's more likely than not that Greece will go.

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Do you think they should? Do you think they should pay now? It gets

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more difficult the longer it's left. The best time for them to go would

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have been as soon as the crisis broke. That's two years ago we have

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been in this we have to bear in mind and the fact it's dragging on

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so long is one of the reasons the British economy is struggling. It's

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worth bearing in mind too that the Greeks cheated, the Greeks actually

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lied in their submission to the European Commission. The French and

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Germans flouted budgetary rules as well? About the state of their

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public finances. It's true that everybody broke the rules, but it's

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not true that everybody lied in accounting terms. One country did

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lie and, in my view, action should have been considered at that point

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which was quite early on. OK, but you are saying now would be better

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than later to see Greece exit? at it from the Greeks' point of

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view. Do we think the Greek economy will be able to recover from here,

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a sustained recovery at current exchange rates? Maybe that's

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possible, I think it's unlikely. If it doesn't happen, if I can finish

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the answer to that point point, it means extensive and enduring checks

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from the Germans to assist the Greeks -- cheques. Whatever is done

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will involve a lot of pain. Greece leaving will be painful, for us as

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well as Greece. Before we get to contagion, let's look at the

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language from David Cameron and George Osborne. In that sense, why

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aren't we hearing a case being made by British politicians? They may

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not want to shout from the sidelines Greece should leave, it

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would be better for the British economy, if that's what they feel

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because David Cameron's entered into that territory. Was he right

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to do so? It's problematic for David Cameron and George Osborne.

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We are not members of the eurozone, but we are in the EU. It's not much

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fun for the eurozone members getting that. They don't like

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hearing lectures. David Cameron and the Chancellor don't want to get

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involved in that. On the other hand, we are trying to protect British

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interests and bring forward the point at which these decisions are

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taken. We have been at this for two years now, that's part of the

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problem, the fact that it's dragging on. If I can make a

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further point. It may be that we will stagger our way to a solution

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where eventually the cheques are written from the north to keep the

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whole zone together or parts of the eurozone may fold or fall away at

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the bottom, perhaps only Grease or others, I don't know. Whatever

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happens there, we must get that decision taken quickly. That is why

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I have favoured and been arguing for some time that the IMF come in,

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not as a partner of the European Central Bank, but to tell the

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European Central Bank what to do, to tell the European Commission

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what to do, to act as they would with any other country in trouble

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and give really tough unsentimental advice to the rest of the eurozone.

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In terms of what the leadership is saying, do you want to hear more

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from David Cameron saying make that decision, break up if you are not

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prepared to stand by the currency or get the ECB to prop up, daupt to

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Maybe he can leave it to me fr. His point of view, when he comes to the

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heads of state meeting, he doesn't want to give a long lecture. I'm in

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a different position. I can argue that the Greece position is

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perilous. To some extent it's a no- win. It appears that a large chunk

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of the Greek population don't want to be in the eurozone because of

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the adjustments they're having to make to deal with the pressures

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they're putting on them. It appears that a ton of money's been

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literally wasted that's already been given to Greece which is

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aplauing. -- pauling. If either Greece, are they going to be pushed

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or did they jump. We're not sure which way round. We're getting

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complete uncertainty from the litres and we're not getting

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certainty from our own leader. And what's the knock-on effect? I take

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your position, that if you don't cut the wound off soon, that wound

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is going to fester and spread everywhere, which is perilous to

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start with. The risk of contagion as Vince Cable set out clearly, is

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frightening. Is that not worse, the risk that you see Greece default

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messily or not and then depositors start taking money out of Spanish

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and Italian banks. Then British banks look more vulnerable to debt

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there. That would be, wouldn't that be far more frightening than

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actually trying to keep up propping up Greece? Correct. A disorderly

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break up of the eurozone would be catastrophic for anybody near the

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eurozone at the time that happens. Can we find a way of making these

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adjustments, either in the eurozone or with these countries leaving

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with the key country at moment leaving, Greece? To some extent, it

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would be a plus, if I just... If I jump in. Obviously the money

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that would have gone to Greece can be spread around the other

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countries if they so need it. want to complete the point I wanted

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to make. A said a second ago that I think we need to be involving the

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IMF in all this. Are the Europeans, is the eurozone planning a

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contingency operation for Greek withdrawal? I don't see enough

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evidence of that. I don't see the work being done. You don't? Surely

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it is going on behind the scenes. very much hope. So the people best

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place to guide it are the IMFment empower them. Three quarters of

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their shareholders are not in the eurozone and it's on their behalf,

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that's us, America, Japan, China, India, it's on behalf of the rest

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of the world that we need them to do that. You're going to be here

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for the next discussion as well. What did David Cameron have to say

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about the domestic economy this morning? Here's a flavour of his

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speech. Let me be clear, we are moving in the right direction, not

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rushing the task, but judging it carefully. And that is why we must

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resist dangerous voices calling on us to retreat. Yes, we are doing

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everything we can to return this country to strong, stable economic

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growth. But, no, we will not do that by returning to the something

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for nothing economics that got us into this economic mess in the

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first place. We cannot blow the budget on more spending and more

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debt. It would be to squander all the progress that we've made in the

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last two tough years. It would actually mean tough decisions

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lasting even longer. It would risk our future. It is not an

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alternative policy, it is a coppout. The Prime Minister speaking there

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about the economy. Andrew Tyrie, I mean the Bank of England has cut

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its growth forecast. Mervyn King's warned that the squeeze on

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household incomes will persist. Inflation stays high till next year.

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Mortgages are going up. Are you still confident the Government's

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policies are working? It's tough. I don't see an alternative to the

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strategy we've got. But it's not working. I notice that the Prime

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Minister has a purple tie on today and that... Matching. Matching the

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set here. If they're not working... He's been giving a pretty robust,

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if not to say gloomy speech, when you say it's not working... We're

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in recession. What's the alternative? The alternative

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strategy that the Prime Minister goes on about now, is we need to

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look at growth. He doesn't want to spend any more money. If you're

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looking at plan that the Government said was going to work in two years

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there would be growth, it hasn't worked. There isn't growth.

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Shouldn't they be looking at an alternative. There are two parts of

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that. The first is to say, have we got the right level of demand in

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the economy. Are we taking too much out of the economy, are we, are the

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spending cuts going through too vigorously? If you ask the people

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calling for that, I expect they'll be in your studio on and off for

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months to come, ask them by how much do they want to reduce that?

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Is it �2 billion, �5 billion, �8 billion? Bear in mind we've just

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done �300 billion worth of squeezing. The odd few billion here

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on fiscal policy is not going to make a great difference. What we

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need to be addressing is a longer term question which is reform of

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the way the economy operates, the labour market, tax system. I'm glad

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you use the term, I thought I'd try to avoid it. But do you think that

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will transform the economic landscape? It did in the 1980s. We

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were a basket case in the '70s. We had supply side reform and it

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worked. It's what the Germans are talking about and what the European

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Community, European Union is talking about with a respect to the

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Lisbon agenda, which was never implemented. It's one of the

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reasons why the eurozone is so inflexible and why the Greeks and

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Spanish and Portuguese are in a more difficult situation than they

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would be. You do accept that the plan has failed to do what the

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Government set out to do, which was as George Osborne said by having a

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rigorous deficit reduction programme there would be growth.

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There isn't growth. They blamed the eurozone. Don't they? Rather than

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saying any of it is down to policies here. Is that really

0:22:440:22:49

enough to blame the eurozone for all of those factors I've listed?

0:22:490:22:53

think the eurozone as the Governor of the Bank of England pointed out

0:22:530:22:58

in evidence to the Treasury committee said, is responsible for

0:22:580:23:03

the bulk of it. At the time the decisions were taken two years ago,

0:23:030:23:08

the eurozone was doing better than it is now, substantially better.

0:23:080:23:12

The remainder is accounted for the fact we have higher commodity

0:23:120:23:16

prices. The British economy, bearing in mind the pressure on it,

0:23:160:23:20

has been showing flexibility. We saw that in the labour market

0:23:200:23:24

statistics which have come out. Unemployment is not as bad as

0:23:240:23:29

people feared, it is very bad, but not as bad as feared. This is a

0:23:290:23:34

huge crisis, the biggest crisis that the country has faced since

0:23:340:23:37

the 1930s, certainly since the 1980s. In my view they have

0:23:370:23:43

broughtly the bright -- broadly the bright strategy on fiscal policies.

0:23:430:23:49

The sort of labour supply side reforms you would like to see?

0:23:490:23:52

have started to articulate that agenda. I've been pushing for that

0:23:520:23:56

for 18 months. I've been arguing that they need to have this higher

0:23:560:24:02

up the agenda. They do now, they are movering it up the agenda,

0:24:020:24:06

implementing it at a very, very tough job. Now they need to get on

0:24:060:24:10

with it. Thank you. Ed Miliband had this to say this morning on the

0:24:100:24:15

economy: Extraordinary, you see figures showing that the eurozone

0:24:150:24:19

as a whole has not been in recession, but Britain is in

0:24:190:24:22

recession. Now what's got to happen is that we have to have a proper

0:24:220:24:25

plan for growth in Britain. We've got to have that proper plan for

0:24:250:24:31

growth and jobs. We've got to see crucially the eurozone sort out its

0:24:310:24:33

problems. Sometimes listening to the Prime Minister he's like a man

0:24:330:24:36

watching events. He's the Prime Minister. He should be getting in

0:24:360:24:40

there and getting it sorted out with Europe's leaders and sorting

0:24:400:24:44

it out means not just sorting out the eurozone's problems but getting

0:24:440:24:47

that proper plan for growth we need in Europe, just like we need a plan

0:24:470:24:52

for growth in Britain. The Shadow chief secretary to the Treasury is

0:24:520:24:57

with me now. I will pick up on what Andrew Tyrie said, let's hear how

0:24:570:25:01

much you would spend in a stimulus. If the, as you say, the

0:25:010:25:05

Government's policies are wrong, we are in recession. Growth isn't

0:25:050:25:07

happening. How much would the Government need to spend to

0:25:070:25:11

kickstart the economy? What we're saying is that there should be a

0:25:110:25:16

slower pace of deficit reduction. I'm sorry to interrupt you, the

0:25:170:25:20

slower pace of deficit reduction, how much slower would it have to be.

0:25:200:25:25

The Government is cutting 13 a year, Labour wouldn't have cut as much, -

0:25:250:25:32

- 1prs a year, Labour wouldn't have cut as much. -- 1%. This Government

0:25:320:25:36

set out to eliminate the deficit in this Parliament. They're not going

0:25:360:25:39

it achieve that because they're borrowing �150 billion more because

0:25:390:25:42

of higher unemployment and the economy is back into recession.

0:25:420:25:45

What about the cuts made so far, you wouldn't have made any fewer

0:25:450:25:49

cuts really or not a lot less than have been made so far in terms of

0:25:490:25:53

expenditure? If you look at the police, the Government are cutting

0:25:530:25:57

by 20%, we said 12%. I'm looking at the overall expenditure. Overall

0:25:570:26:01

you wouldn't have been cutting a lot less. Our plan was to go at

0:26:020:26:05

half the speed, to halve the deficit during the course of this

0:26:050:26:08

Parliament. Remember, because the Government have failed to get the

0:26:080:26:11

economy back on track and because unemployment is higher, they are

0:26:110:26:17

now borrowing more than the plan Alistair Darling set out, �150

0:26:170:26:22

billion more because their decision to cut too far too far, choked off

0:26:220:26:26

the economic recovery. You don't have the tax receipts coming in.

0:26:260:26:30

accept when you say over the course of the Parliament. What I'm trying

0:26:300:26:35

to establish is that over the last two -- two years, in terms of what

0:26:350:26:38

Labour would have done, they haven't cut much faster than Labour

0:26:380:26:43

would have done at this point. And we are still in recession. Are you

0:26:430:26:46

saying that the policies that Labour would have undertaken,

0:26:460:26:51

cutting a little slower, would have resulted in let's say 2% to 3%

0:26:510:26:55

growth. Is that where we would be? If you look at the United States of

0:26:550:26:59

America, which has a different pace of deficit reduction, their economy

0:26:590:27:03

is growing strongly... With a massive stimulus. With a stimulus,

0:27:030:27:07

but they're reducing the deficit. They're deficit is coming down at a

0:27:070:27:12

faster rate than ours. You would have liked to see a stimulus into

0:27:130:27:16

the British economy, more spending? What you're seeing in the United

0:27:160:27:19

States is their deficit is coming down because they have more people

0:27:190:27:22

in work paying taxes and fewer people out of work receiving

0:27:220:27:26

benefits. The two go together. You have to have those policies for

0:27:260:27:29

jobs and growth to get the economy moving, but also to get the deficit

0:27:290:27:34

down as well. The Government have failed in all three tests. The

0:27:340:27:39

economy's in a double-dip recession. Unemployment is far too high. Also,

0:27:390:27:42

they're borrowing much more because their plan has failed. Would you

0:27:420:27:46

like to see more spending on things like infrastructure, that perhaps,

0:27:460:27:49

would have prevented unemployment rates, though they've come down in

0:27:490:27:55

the last set of figures, but would have prevented unemployment rates

0:27:550:28:00

going up so much? London is in the middle of infrastructure at the

0:28:000:28:03

moment. Just getting about London is an absolute nightmare. There's

0:28:030:28:10

so much work going on and so many people employed. The notion of

0:28:100:28:12

having capital infrastructure projects which will only happen at

0:28:120:28:15

certain times is the reason why we have the Olympic Games coming to

0:28:150:28:22

London, for example. To encourage more, that is the prime reason why

0:28:220:28:27

people decided to have the Olympics to push for it, is because those

0:28:270:28:32

prodge etc -- projects would never have taken place. They're happening

0:28:320:28:36

any way. What this good. Or the coalition is pointing out and I

0:28:360:28:41

think which is becoming quite obvious, you can't spend what you

0:28:410:28:44

don't have. We've been spending what we don't have for too long and

0:28:440:28:48

trying to make that up is never going to work. On that point, it's

0:28:480:28:53

been put to Labour many times, briefly, should you be saying

0:28:530:28:57

Greece needs to leave the euro? Greece leaves the euro then I think

0:28:570:29:00

that could have disastrous consequences for the UK and the

0:29:000:29:05

rest of Europe. So I want to see the governments in Europe,

0:29:050:29:08

including David Cameron and our Government, doing all that can be

0:29:090:29:15

done to try and support the eurozone economy. That means having

0:29:150:29:18

a policy for jobs and growth. Have you more and more people out of

0:29:190:29:22

work in Europe. Unless people go back to work, you can't get the

0:29:220:29:26

economy back on track. How will that help Greece? None of that

0:29:260:29:29

helps at the moment? Looking at Greece, they've been in recession

0:29:290:29:33

for four years now, one of the reasons why they're struggling so

0:29:340:29:38

much with the deficit and debt is that their economy is shrinking.

0:29:390:29:42

Nothing will save Greece at this point unless the European Central

0:29:420:29:46

Bank or money is put in. There are things that can be done as you've

0:29:460:29:52

just said. That's if the ECB does its job as a lender of last resort

0:29:520:30:00

and if the austerity is also met with a proper growth package that

0:30:000:30:10

could save the euro, but also, We often talk about the backbench

0:30:100:30:14

1922 committee on this programme, every other day it seems. Why

0:30:140:30:18

should today be any different? It's influential and has been through

0:30:180:30:21

years of thorn in the side of Conservative leaders. Last night it

0:30:210:30:26

had fresh elections. To tell us who is in and out, let's cross to James

0:30:260:30:30

Landale, a keen follower of these things. Who won and who lost, if

0:30:300:30:35

that's the way to characterise it? I won't go through the names, but

0:30:350:30:40

largely the new generation, those MPs elected in 2010, a lot more

0:30:400:30:45

have been elected on to this body. Some old guards, so-called awkward

0:30:450:30:49

squad, they've been kicked off this committee. As a committee, it will

0:30:490:30:54

be driven a lot more by the views of the new intake and all their

0:30:540:30:58

agendas. I think the Government will be happier with that because

0:30:580:31:01

largely they will be more in line with where the Government is

0:31:010:31:04

heading at the moment. However, I think that the problem for the

0:31:040:31:09

Government is that the process of this election was testy, scratchy,

0:31:090:31:13

devisive factional and I think that will add to the Government's

0:31:130:31:16

discipline problems in the long run. Thank you very much.

0:31:160:31:21

Well, I'm joined now by the chairman of the 1922 committee

0:31:210:31:24

Graham Brady who was re-elected unopposed. Listening to that, at

0:31:250:31:31

the moment, it's been testy, bad tempered, is that how you see it?

0:31:310:31:35

think the campaign was too factional and occasionally bad

0:31:350:31:37

tempered. I think sometimes colleague didn't show respect for

0:31:370:31:41

each other that I would like the see and I hope now we have had an

0:31:410:31:45

election which was very well conducted yesterday and good

0:31:450:31:53

humours on the day and is in a - has resulted in a very good

0:31:530:31:57

spectrum, I hope it will be more civilised and we'll treat each

0:31:570:32:03

other with more respect. Was this a perge by loyalists loyal to the

0:32:030:32:09

leadership? -- purge? It's exactly as it should be... Tell me how that

0:32:090:32:14

is? You survived as perhaps one of the traditionalists, but a lot of

0:32:140:32:18

loyalists have got on to the executive, 11 out of 12, that

0:32:180:32:23

sounds like a purge? I don't think the division between loyalists and

0:32:230:32:28

traditionalists is ar accurate. are loll loyal to the leadership?

0:32:280:32:32

try to be, and to the party. The committee is a channel of

0:32:320:32:35

communication to the backbenches and the party, principally to the

0:32:350:32:39

leader of the Conservative Party. That is something we do well. We

0:32:390:32:42

generally, contrary to popular opinion, the executive does it

0:32:420:32:48

discreetly, very rarely leaks and we should maintain that. Can you be

0:32:480:32:51

an effective conduit to the leadership from backbenchers who, I

0:32:510:32:57

mean I had Dan on earlier who said many of the intake think the 1922's

0:32:570:33:00

become almost irrelevant and the old guard doesn't really represent

0:33:000:33:04

our views? Well, I don't know whether Dan thinks I'm old guard or

0:33:040:33:08

not, I hope he doesn't. You are in the sense that you are not part of

0:33:080:33:13

the 2010 intake? But the Conservative Party... I take that

0:33:130:33:17

point, but what do you say to the criticism? I think the 192

0:33:170:33:21

committee is frequently misunderstood by some of its

0:33:210:33:25

members. It doesn't take a corporate view, it's a channel of

0:33:250:33:27

communication, the way in which Conservative backbenchers

0:33:270:33:31

communicate with the leadership of the party. The way they need to do

0:33:310:33:35

that is to engage, be present, involve themselves and their voice

0:33:350:33:39

will be heard. Do you accept the leadership is worried about that,

0:33:390:33:41

because they wouldn't have been backing a slate of candidates put

0:33:420:33:47

forward by a particular group, the 301 group of essentially new MPs?

0:33:470:33:51

That's something for historians to... What is your view? If the

0:33:510:33:54

leadership has to get that involved? I don't think David

0:33:540:33:57

Cameron was involved. George Osborne entertained a lot of those

0:33:570:34:00

people trying to get on to the committee? George Osborne, David

0:34:000:34:04

Cameron preconstituent I have have drinks parties for Conservative

0:34:040:34:08

Members of Parliament, I think that's a good thing, ebgts pected

0:34:080:34:10

thing, natural for David Cameron and George Osborne to come to the

0:34:100:34:15

committee -- expected. Do you think it would be too disloyal? You are

0:34:150:34:20

there as a critical voice or friend or whatever, but do you accept the

0:34:200:34:23

leadership was worried it was becoming too critical, that people

0:34:230:34:26

were voicing their unhappiness with what the Government was doing?

0:34:270:34:31

think it's important to bear in mind. People who happen to be on

0:34:310:34:34

the executive of the 1922 commission or in the offices are

0:34:340:34:37

Members of Parliament as well. They don't necessarily speak in their

0:34:370:34:43

capacity as officers of the 1922 committee. I tend to have a fairly

0:34:430:34:47

strict self-denying audience. I'm not plastered across the media

0:34:470:34:51

making public meant because it's more effective to make the comments

0:34:510:34:54

privately to David Cameron and others in the Government. Do you

0:34:540:34:58

think Mark Pritchard, Christopher Chote, Peter Bone, these are MPs

0:34:580:35:03

who've caused problems or said things and it's thought they spoke

0:35:030:35:08

out of turn? I just expect honesty and courtesy and respect. People

0:35:080:35:13

have to make their own judgments. How does Nadine Dorries and her

0:35:130:35:16

comments about two posh boys fit into that? That was not showing the

0:35:160:35:20

personal respect that should be shown to all colleagues. So those

0:35:200:35:25

comments - I mean where's the line - if you want people to express

0:35:250:35:29

their unhappy views, such as Lord's reform, should that have been in

0:35:290:35:33

the Queen's speech? It's for the Government to decide that. But you

0:35:330:35:36

are representing backbenchers. entirely proper for backbenchers to

0:35:360:35:40

give their views and to communicate their advice and views to the

0:35:400:35:44

Government. That is I think a necessary part of the process. We

0:35:440:35:48

are elected to Parliament to do is something, not just to sit, wait

0:35:480:35:51

and hear what the Government tells us. Do you think the Tory party is

0:35:520:35:56

changing this new intake of MPs that are coming through? In some

0:35:560:35:59

ways, they are actually very independent even if some are saying

0:35:590:36:02

they want to be loyal to David Cameron. What is your view?

0:36:020:36:08

appears as if the party is changing. Obviously, from a lay point of view

0:36:080:36:15

from being on the outside, all we are seeing is the condemn, you know,

0:36:150:36:25
0:36:250:36:25

the coalition. Whether it's Con /kDem or not, we can't see the wood

0:36:250:36:28

for the trues. I thought the committee was there to point out

0:36:280:36:33

which was the wood and which was the trees. It's natural the

0:36:330:36:36

committee will want to pull a coalition Government in the

0:36:360:36:39

Conservative direction and make sure the coalition is properly

0:36:390:36:45

balanced. So for instance, Lord's reform, needn't have been in the

0:36:450:36:48

Queen's speech as far as your 1922 committee and backbenchers are

0:36:480:36:52

concerned? We don't take a corporate view, we do however tray

0:36:520:36:55

to reflect the spectrum and strength of opinion. As is well

0:36:550:36:59

known, we did have a meeting to discuss House of Lords reform. It

0:36:590:37:02

was I think quite an important meeting and I think it helped to

0:37:020:37:06

inform the government's thinking on the subject. Gay marriage - that

0:37:060:37:09

dropped even though there's been the consultation. Was that the

0:37:090:37:14

right thing to do? It's not been dropped... But it wasn't in

0:37:140:37:18

legislating on in the Queen's speech? As with many things, as a

0:37:180:37:22

spectrum of opinion in the party on it, what I think is a broad held

0:37:220:37:25

view is that it shouldn't be stpral to what the Government is doing --

0:37:250:37:29

central. The things David Cameron's been talking about this morning I

0:37:290:37:32

think are very much at the core both of what the Government needs

0:37:320:37:35

to be doing, what the country needs and the thing that the coalition's

0:37:350:37:39

come together to achieve. Do you think you will still be in that

0:37:390:37:42

position next year? Well, I quite like democracy and it's a good

0:37:420:37:46

thing for people to have elections and to be able to vote and make

0:37:460:37:49

their own choices. Thank you very much. From the old guard, well,

0:37:490:37:53

perhaps not quite so old guard, to what must be the new guard, joining

0:37:530:37:56

us from College Green outside the House of Commons is Graham Evans,

0:37:560:37:59

he was elected to the 1922 committee for the first time last

0:37:590:38:03

night and had the backing of the 301 group of modernising MPs. Well,

0:38:030:38:07

congratulations on your victory. Do you see it as a victory for the

0:38:070:38:12

2010 intake and the 301 group? I don't see it as a victory. The

0:38:120:38:17

2010 intake was full of a huge amount of talented new MPs from

0:38:170:38:20

extremely diverse backgrounds, more representative of society, from the

0:38:200:38:25

north of England from working class backgrounds. So I think the 1922

0:38:250:38:28

committee is representative of the party as a whole. Why did you have

0:38:280:38:32

to run a slate of candidates then? Why did it have to be that

0:38:320:38:36

organised with what looked like backing from the leadership?

0:38:360:38:39

wasn't contacted by the Prime Minister or the Chancellor. I was

0:38:390:38:43

going to stand anyway. I'm a member of the 2010 intake, so although

0:38:430:38:48

much play's been made on the slate, we are a bunch of individuals from

0:38:480:38:53

the 2010 intake and happen to have got ourselves elected. What is

0:38:530:38:57

wrong with the old guard, do you like Graham Brady? I have a huge

0:38:570:39:01

amount of respect for him, as a fellow north-west Conservative,

0:39:010:39:05

Graham's done a fantastic job in Manchester, a lone voice of sense

0:39:050:39:10

in the I woulderness years in the 90s, so a huge amount of respect

0:39:100:39:20

for Graham, he's a very good chairman -- wilderness. Yes. Is the

0:39:200:39:23

Government going to get an easier ride from you and your colleagues.

0:39:230:39:28

Do you think it's not wise to be disrespectful and speak out in such

0:39:280:39:32

a way that would damage the Government? We should be respectful

0:39:320:39:35

critical friends. The message here is that the Conservative Party is

0:39:350:39:39

united taking the fight to Labour for leaving our country in such a

0:39:390:39:42

mess. All right. Thank you very much. Sorry I stopped you abruptly,

0:39:420:39:45

but thank you very much. And thank you to you, Graham Brady.

0:39:450:39:50

Get your bunting out, pack a few cucumber sandwiches and start

0:39:500:39:54

waving the flags because Jubilee fever is upon us. In two-and-a-half

0:39:540:39:58

weeks' time, thousands of street parties will be held all over the

0:39:580:40:01

country, millions are expected to line the mall and cheer Her Majesty.

0:40:010:40:04

According to the Kennel Club, Diamond Jubilee fever's seen a

0:40:040:40:09

surge in demand for corgis, the Queen's favourite dog. Why do we

0:40:090:40:14

love Her Majesty so much? Here is saw Sanaa.

0:40:140:40:19

- Susanna. The flags, the crowds, the bunting. Only one person could

0:40:190:40:22

be in town. After 60 years on the throne, the

0:40:220:40:25

Queen is still pulling many the crowds. But what is it that makes

0:40:250:40:28

people come and stand out here for hours on end, just to catch a

0:40:280:40:33

glimpse of her? I think the fact she's been doing

0:40:340:40:38

the same job for 60 years without putting a foot wrong. She's been on

0:40:380:40:43

the throne for a long time and has done a good job. She's faced so

0:40:430:40:46

many challenges. Because of her stamina. She never gives up. What

0:40:460:40:52

about the rest of the Royals, do you like them? Not the hangers on,

0:40:520:41:00

but yes, Will and Harry. Not the hangers on. Who are they? Well...

0:41:000:41:05

Oh, dear, are we allowed to say. Andrew. They haven't all been as

0:41:050:41:08

plash as the Queen who's now into her third Jubilee celebrations.

0:41:080:41:16

This was the silver one where the street parties ran into the night.

0:41:160:41:20

She became Queen many the early '50s and it's the history she

0:41:200:41:24

represents which we love, according to one historian. She is the 20th

0:41:240:41:30

century. She was born into the depression, the 50s and 60s and

0:41:300:41:33

came through really tough times. Her popularity was at a massive low

0:41:340:41:38

point after the death of Diana and she's come through it. We partly do

0:41:380:41:42

love her because we did once hate her. After Diana's death, public

0:41:420:41:47

anger was directed at the Queen, the monarchy had to modernise, it

0:41:470:41:54

was argued. So why not let a Queen guitarist on

0:41:540:41:58

the roof? The godge celebrations mixed the traditional with the

0:41:580:42:02

modern -- the Golden Jubilee. And last year's Royal Wedding proved

0:42:020:42:07

that the monarchy can still fill the mall. The young Royals have

0:42:070:42:09

become very popular and having the Royal Wedding last year was a

0:42:090:42:13

master stroke. I mean, it gathered all the incredible popularity and

0:42:130:42:16

ever since then, the Royal Family have been riding high on it. There

0:42:160:42:19

was a lot of talk that the Golden Jubilee would have been a come

0:42:190:42:22

plait damp squib. I don't think anyone thinks that about the

0:42:220:42:26

Diamond Jubilee, even if it's going to rain. If the Queen wants to know

0:42:260:42:30

what the weather will be like, here is someone who can give her a

0:42:300:42:34

forecast. The potential for a few flurries over barrel moral, who the

0:42:340:42:37

hell wrote this script... Prince Charles is next in line for the

0:42:370:42:41

throne, but in Bromley, supporters don't seem as keen on him. Maybe

0:42:410:42:45

ten years ago maybe, but now I think William. Not quite sure if

0:42:450:42:50

he'd make a good King, to be honest. I think William and Kate, we see

0:42:500:42:55

them as the next ones. William. Those discussions will come, but

0:42:550:42:59

the Queen's Diamond Jubilee is sure to have all the pomp and pageantry

0:42:590:43:04

of Jubilees past. Our guest of the day, Harry Goldsmith is in charge

0:43:040:43:07

of the Jubilee family festival and we are also joined by the

0:43:070:43:10

Conservative MP Robert Buckland, a member of the All Party Group on

0:43:100:43:13

the Queen's Diamond Jubilee and from the republican camp we are

0:43:130:43:17

joined by Graham Smith from Republic. Welcome to both of you.

0:43:170:43:21

Can I start with you, Robert, why do you think the Queen's appeal is

0:43:210:43:25

so enduring? She embodies public service. She made that promise to

0:43:250:43:29

us when she was a Princess years ago and has embodied that through

0:43:290:43:33

her long reign. The amount of work and engagements she does, the

0:43:330:43:38

amount of public involvement that she undertakes is extraordinary and

0:43:380:43:44

I think paying tribute to that in the Jubilee is very much part of

0:43:440:43:47

the celebration. But it hasn't been consistent in terms of support and

0:43:470:43:51

popularity, not her public service, because as we showed at the time of

0:43:510:43:55

Princess Diana's death, there was a real slump in support for the

0:43:550:43:59

monarchy, particularly for the Queen. So do you think these things

0:43:590:44:04

just go through phases and that actually the attachment isn't that

0:44:040:44:07

deep? I think the attachment is deep to the institution of monarchy,

0:44:070:44:11

but I accept your point about popularity going through phases. If

0:44:110:44:15

you take the long view, Queen Victoria went through a long phase

0:44:150:44:18

of unpopularity because she withdrew from public life. That

0:44:180:44:22

changed and taking the long view is a very important part of how the

0:44:220:44:26

Queen views her role as Monarch. The enduring support is for the

0:44:260:44:29

institution, if not necessarily for the personality or for the person

0:44:290:44:39
0:44:390:44:39

The reason why the monarchy has survived is largely because we've

0:44:400:44:44

had one monarch on the throne for 60 years. The reason why, it's

0:44:440:44:49

mathematics, she was given a job for life at the age of 25 and she's

0:44:490:44:53

stayed alive. That's why she's been on the throne for 60 years. Why do

0:44:530:44:59

you want to get rid of it? institution, three main reasons,

0:44:590:45:08

the hereditary principle is not in keeping with democratic values.

0:45:080:45:11

They willfully exploit their position for, in terms of finances,

0:45:110:45:16

in terms of lobbying Government in secret, and there are serious

0:45:160:45:20

constitutional issues. We're not a very democratic society and our

0:45:200:45:25

power is in the centre. It's offensive, the institution from a

0:45:250:45:27

hereditary point of view is offensive to democratic principles

0:45:270:45:32

in this country? I don't buy that at all. Technically, all the things

0:45:320:45:36

you're saying may be correct, but as far as the UK is concerned, as

0:45:360:45:43

far as the public is concerned, that sense of magic, I think is a

0:45:430:45:48

bit like sparkle dust at the top, we have a monarchy that, round the

0:45:480:45:53

world, has the most incredible amount of respect. I mean I go

0:45:530:45:56

backwards and forwards to America, I'm off in a couple of hours to New

0:45:560:46:01

York, and every time I go to America, I see more sense of pride

0:46:010:46:06

of having our Queen involved than anything else. Consequently, if the

0:46:060:46:10

public want it and demand it, then I think this Royal Family have done

0:46:100:46:16

a good job on supporting it. It's a myth that people around the world

0:46:160:46:21

are fascinated with it It's not a myth. It is. There's far fewer

0:46:210:46:24

monarchies around the world than there have been. And two more are

0:46:240:46:29

on the ropes in Sweden and Spain. This is why we're protesting on

0:46:290:46:33

June 3 at the pageant. There will be the largest protest there's been

0:46:330:46:36

in modern times for the simple reason that we take democratic

0:46:360:46:41

values very seriously. We're supposed to be equal citizens.

0:46:410:46:45

There's no such thing as equal citizens as you know. That's a myth.

0:46:450:46:50

That's as mythical as having a monarchy. OK, but it's a better

0:46:500:46:54

myth than the monarchy. No, it's not. The idea is that you and I

0:46:540:46:58

have the same political rights, not the same wealth or skills, but the

0:46:580:47:01

same rights. In this country that's not the case. What about the case

0:47:010:47:06

of magic dust, the fact that she is welcomed wherever she goes around

0:47:060:47:10

the country. You can't put a value on that, can you? Let's be clear

0:47:100:47:13

about the level of support. The crowds are smaller than they were

0:47:130:47:17

30 years ago. The Jubilee is less than it was 35 years ago. The

0:47:170:47:21

interest in the wedding was smaller than it was 30 years prior to that.

0:47:210:47:25

People are not as interested. don't find that at all.

0:47:250:47:30

disagree what the crowds were smaller? I don't see that at all in

0:47:300:47:34

society. You can say, there may be less street parties, that's about

0:47:340:47:38

the nature of society and the way it's changing. That's not a

0:47:380:47:42

reflection on the popularity of the monarchy. The Royal Family remains

0:47:420:47:48

an indelible part of public life. They perform a huge ceremonial and

0:47:480:47:53

emotional focus for the country. It's about continuity. It's such a

0:47:530:47:59

colourless, drab alternative that we're being offered. I'll give you

0:47:590:48:05

two words: President Blair. No-one has argued for President Blair. How

0:48:050:48:09

he's going to win an election I have no idea. It is not colourless

0:48:090:48:14

and drab. It's quite exciting and a matter of national and civic pride

0:48:140:48:17

to be able to elect our own President. Ireland has done it

0:48:170:48:21

successfully last year. People are turning off. They're not as excited

0:48:210:48:25

about the monarchy as they were before. An emotional, national

0:48:250:48:29

focus is a sport. It's football, it's the Olympics. People are more

0:48:290:48:33

interested in the Olympics than in the Jubilee. Are you saying there's

0:48:330:48:38

a lack of emotional attachment? There's some, of course. I'm not

0:48:380:48:41

pretending everybody's switched off. There will be maybe half a million

0:48:410:48:45

people at the pageant as at the wedding last year. That's smaller

0:48:450:48:50

crowds. London Gay Pride gets more people than you had at the wedding

0:48:500:48:56

last year, so does Notting Hill Carnival. It's expected between 50

0:48:570:49:00

and 150... That's not correct. As far as our planning and the work

0:49:000:49:05

we're doing with the Government on, with DCMS and Cabinet Office and

0:49:050:49:09

the royal parks etc, we're expecting huge crowds. One of the

0:49:090:49:13

limitations we v, I mentioned earlier, of course, is the state of

0:49:130:49:17

London at the moment with all its road works and whatever, which is

0:49:170:49:22

an impediment to get to events. people would come? The numbers and

0:49:220:49:27

health and so on which physically limit. In terms of demand, the

0:49:270:49:32

demand is as big now as it's ever been. We've been talking to the

0:49:320:49:34

Metropolitan Police about our protest near Tower Bridge on the

0:49:340:49:37

day and they've been telling us half a million is the figure they

0:49:370:49:40

got last year and the figure they're expecting this year.

0:49:400:49:44

Smaller than before. We'll end the competition on the big crowds.

0:49:440:49:50

Thank you to both of you. Now you bunch of (BLEEP) bleep, bet

0:49:500:49:55

you wonder what I was saying. Let's talk about insults. Free speech

0:49:550:49:59

campaignerers calling on the Government to change a law which

0:49:590:50:03

bans insulting words and behaviour. They say the Public Order Act is

0:50:030:50:06

overused and question why police and judges have the right to rule

0:50:060:50:08

what is insulting. Here's our totally uselss reporter, Adam

0:50:080:50:13

Fleming. Don't you hate it when people come up to you and insult

0:50:130:50:19

you? You useless twit. Get a life. Campaigners against section five of

0:50:190:50:25

the Public Order Act say it's part and parcel of free speech. They say

0:50:250:50:30

this 25-year-old law is having a chilling effect. Get your hair cut.

0:50:300:50:35

It allows insults to be criminalised without the person

0:50:350:50:39

being insulted, having to prove that they were insulted. I don't

0:50:390:50:45

think in this multicultural society it's appropriate to criminalise

0:50:450:50:49

something as trivial as insult. It's important for people to be

0:50:490:50:55

able to say truth to power. They point to examples of a teenager who

0:50:550:50:59

called a police horse "gay" and spend a night in the cells as a

0:50:590:51:05

result. Another teenager who was fined for shouting "woof" at a dog

0:51:050:51:08

in the street. The Home Office have held a consultation on all this.

0:51:080:51:11

We're waiting to hear what they say. If they decide the law has to be

0:51:110:51:16

changed, then it means I can go back to the Daily Politics office

0:51:160:51:23

and with impunity called Andrew Neil a (BLEEP) and Gyles he's a

0:51:230:51:27

(BLEEP), (BLEEP). Our producer couldn't (BLEEP)... Then there's

0:51:270:51:33

David Thompson he's a (BLEEP). And Susanna (BLEEP). Do you get the

0:51:330:51:36

impression that Adam enjoyed doing that a little too much! And we're

0:51:360:51:39

joined now by the human rights campaigner, Peter Tatchell, and

0:51:390:51:44

from Southampton by Will Riches of the Police Federation. On a serious

0:51:440:51:48

point, how can you criminalise insults? Let's talk first of all,

0:51:480:51:52

this is not about limiting public freedom of speech at all. Isn't it?

0:51:520:51:55

There was a particularly interesting piece there in relation

0:51:550:52:01

to it. Well, OK. But in a sense, it is still criminalising what is

0:52:010:52:05

insulting behaviour to one person and less so to another. Let's talk

0:52:050:52:10

about, it talks about a person of reasonable firmness. This is not a

0:52:100:52:14

shrirchinging violet. We're members of the public too going about their

0:52:140:52:17

business and having to endure other people's behaviour which affects

0:52:170:52:22

their quality of life as well. suppose people might say in terms

0:52:220:52:26

of protecting the police can't they put up with a certain amount of

0:52:260:52:30

abuse. You're the people protecting the public, is it worth spending

0:52:300:52:34

the time using the law to protect yourselves against what is

0:52:340:52:38

insulting behaviour? That's true. The police are the public. The

0:52:380:52:42

public are the police. We are members of society and yes, we do

0:52:420:52:46

have to look at the way in which people behave. We're there to

0:52:460:52:49

enforce the law and make sure everybody has a right to go about

0:52:490:52:55

their business and feel safe in doing so. You have campaigned to

0:52:550:52:59

protect minority groups, famous for doing so, why do you want to take

0:53:000:53:04

away this protection? This section five of the Public Order Act was

0:53:040:53:10

used in 2009, 18,000 times. It's not a rare occurrence. Morover, it

0:53:100:53:14

has been used against people who in my opinion have not insulted anyone.

0:53:150:53:19

For example, there have been a series of street preachers who have

0:53:190:53:22

said they believe homosexuality is wrong or immoral. They have been

0:53:220:53:25

convicted under this law. Now, they weren't being aggressive on

0:53:250:53:29

threating. They were just expressing their point of view. I

0:53:290:53:33

disagree with it. I would protest against their point of view, but I

0:53:330:53:37

don't think they should be criminalised. Surely, that is the

0:53:370:53:40

fact that we champion free speech in this country, unless someone is

0:53:400:53:44

under threat from physical violence, why can't people say what they want

0:53:440:53:47

to say? Of course, there should be freedom of speech. It is for the

0:53:470:53:52

Government to decide at what level the threshold is set. Why was it

0:53:520:53:57

used 18,000 times this section five? I'm sorry, I didn't get that?

0:53:570:54:03

Why was it used 18,000 times. Peter Tatchell said it was used 18,000

0:54:030:54:08

times in... 2009. That's a large number. That's historic data. I

0:54:080:54:12

don't have that in front of me. Clearly, if it's gone through the

0:54:120:54:15

system, then we're doing our jobs as police officers and making sure

0:54:150:54:19

that people are being held to account for their actions.

0:54:190:54:23

thing is it's a difficult line to draw, because what is the

0:54:230:54:27

difference between saying some of the things you said on religious

0:54:270:54:33

marches and inciting hatred? Well, if we removed the clause against

0:54:330:54:39

insults from section five, it would still leave the clauses

0:54:390:54:42

criminalising abusive and threatening behaviour. And there's

0:54:420:54:46

the other public order laws and the laws against harassment. They would

0:54:460:54:50

rightly protect people. What we're concerned about is the chilling

0:54:500:54:53

effect that this clause on insults has against people who are merely

0:54:530:54:58

expressing an opinion. Of course, in a free society we have to put up

0:54:580:55:02

sometimes with opinions we find offensive and insulting. Do you

0:55:020:55:05

think Peter Tatchell is right, we do have to put up with that and

0:55:050:55:09

that is the price for free speech? I do tend to agree with Peter's

0:55:090:55:14

views. I think it's a question of balance. I think under the basis of

0:55:140:55:21

what seems to be on the table, what Nadine Dorries said about her

0:55:210:55:24

leaders, she should be in jail by now, based on that. It doesn't make

0:55:240:55:30

any sense. We have too often, as I said earlier with the charity issue,

0:55:300:55:34

we have too often where Government uses a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

0:55:340:55:41

This is a balance, it's a difficult balance, particularly with whose

0:55:410:55:44

interpretation of what an insult is and how devastating that is in

0:55:440:55:48

effect. The problem that the police have got to do, of course, they

0:55:480:55:52

have to do the interpretation of it and decide whether this really is,

0:55:520:55:57

and it puts them in an inindividualious situation. Even a

0:55:570:56:01

very expert and experienced person like Lord McDonald, the former

0:56:010:56:07

director of public prosecutions, gave a legal opinion that we do not

0:56:070:56:11

need the insult clause in section five, that if it was removed it

0:56:110:56:14

would not diminish the powers of the police because there are so

0:56:140:56:18

many laws they can use against behaviour that is threatening,

0:56:180:56:23

abusive and causes harm to people. Thank you very much.

0:56:230:56:27

When it comes to insults, we've seen some corkers, among the cut

0:56:270:56:32

and thrust of blil debate, in a moment we'll chat about the thorny

0:56:320:56:36

issue of unParliamentary language. First are some of the our

0:56:360:56:40

favourites. I know he's keen on summing up policy in six words. How

0:56:400:56:46

about this: You are the weakest link, goodbye.

0:56:460:56:53

Mr Speaker, the House has noticed the Prime Minister's remarkable

0:56:530:57:03
0:57:030:57:03

transformation in the last few weeks from starling to Mr Bean.

0:57:030:57:09

You're a miserable pip squeak of a mad dog. Then the survivors of

0:57:090:57:13

World War II started to look pretty old as well, as my noble friend the

0:57:130:57:18

Baroness reminded me, claiming to be one of the only survivor I think

0:57:180:57:21

in this House of the, those who gave great service to their nation.

0:57:220:57:26

You know really, you have the charisma of a damp rag and the

0:57:260:57:29

appearance of a low-grade bank clerk and the question that I want

0:57:290:57:33

to ask... The question that I want to ask that we're all going to ask,

0:57:340:57:38

is who are you? I'd never heard of you. Nobody in Europe had ever

0:57:380:57:42

heard of you. So, proud of our Parliamentary democracy and what

0:57:420:57:47

can and can't be said? I think you know, MPs give it. I think they

0:57:480:57:50

should not be criminalising the rest of the public. It's

0:57:500:57:54

interesting that more than half of MPs do believe that the insult

0:57:540:57:58

clause should be removed from section five. A quick few words

0:57:580:58:03

that can't be said, hooligan, rat, swine, stool pigeon and traitor.

0:58:030:58:11

Are they unParliamentary? They're being kind. What would you say?, no,

0:58:110:58:15

don't actually tell us what you might say. One of my favourites,

0:58:150:58:20

although it's very unkind, Dennis heely once said of Lord Howe it's

0:58:200:58:28

like being savaged by a dead sheep. That's all for today. David

0:58:280:58:32

Cameron's favourite album Pink Floyd. Dark Side Of The Moon, it is.

0:58:320:58:40

Aapparently. Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is starting

0:58:400:58:44

Jo Coburn is joined by music promoter Harvey Goldsmith, who is helping to organise the Golden Jubilee celebrations.

Also discussed are David Cameron's warning of 'perilous economic times' and why we love the Queen. And should the law be changed on insults?


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