18/05/2012 Daily Politics


18/05/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and guests including UKIP leader Nigel Farage and former Europe Minister Denis MacShane on the euro crisis.


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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. As if he didn't

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have enough on his plate David Cameron wants to help you bring up

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your children or at least provide classes to lend you a hand. Has the

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champion of the Big Society embraced the nanny state? Now he's

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got that out of the way, the Prime Minister is heading to the US for a

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meeting of the world's biggest economies, with Greece, Spain and

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the euro crisis top of the agenda. We'll have the latest from

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Washington and ask UKIP's Nigel Farage and former Europe Minister

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Denis MacShane where the EU goes from here. And what happens when a

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politician more famous than the party they lead stands down? After

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Caroline Lucas steps down as Green Party leader we'll talk one person

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parties. How fast do you drive? 60, 70? What about 80 miles per hour?

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That's the government's plan for Britain's motorways but road safety

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campaigners say it will cost lives. We'll debate whether the planned

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new limit is the right one. Treasury whip just received the

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steps from a Labour Whip saying Please Please come to the chamber

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for the start of the final day of the Queen's Speech today. Ed Balls

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is opening for us and really needs his support. Oh dear. We'll explore

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the perils of mixing politics with modern technology. All that in the

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next hour. And with us for the whole programme today are Anne

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McElvoy from the Economist and Steve Richards from the Independent.

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Let's start with the Prime Minister's plans to help parents

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bring up their children by offering state-funded parenting classes,

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some of which will be made available in high street stores.

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Here's what he had to say about the idea this morning. Parents want

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help, it is in our interests as a society to help people bring up

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children. We are taught how to drive so I think it makes perfect

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sense to keep -- help people with parenting. I wish I had had more

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support. These are practical, sensible tips from midwives,

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featuring real families, real information. It is a good thing and

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people who say it is the nanny state do not listen to them. David

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Cameron speaking this morning. Steve, does this have a hint of the

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nanny state? I am a strong supporter of the nanny state, I

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think the idea it is a derogatory phrase is part of the problem with

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Britain at the moment when any one is too scared to outline clear

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rules. I think it is a really good idea, absolutely right but it does

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not go far enough. I think parenting classes should be made

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binding, not voluntary. My worry is that the kind of people that would

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really benefit from these classes like young parents will not take up

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the offer. It is not enough, so should be more nannying, not less!

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This paranoia about being a nanny state is a real problem. Look at

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the smoking ban. Liberating measure. The problem for him is he has

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always moaned about the so called nanny state that you support. Is it

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just surprising coming from David Cameron, this sort of policy?

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because it is not even nannying. It is voluntary, it is Advisory,

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offering advice, resources, facilities. It is not nannying. If

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you cannot do something like this when a few of his advisers rightly

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say we insist on people taking driving instructions but have no

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guidelines on parenting, if you cannot do this through fear of

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appearing bossy you might as well give up politics because they are

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in a position where they can do something about this. The issue is

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it is not enough. But are the right people going to take up any of this

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advice which can be classed as e- mails, I forget what else. Early

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intervention will save money further down the line. Tony Blair

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never came up with this idea. Is this going to do the trick? No. The

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reason is because they fear being accused of being a nanny state, so

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they will not impose the Sony one. -- this on any one. Where actually

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the only way you make progress is where people have to do it

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otherwise people will not. So I fear it will not reached the people

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that will benefit most. Everybody will benefit because nobody knows

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how to parent, I wish I had been forced to do it. But I do not think

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it will reach the right people. That means becoming more of a nanny

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state, then you can. We're used to the eurozone lurching from crisis

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to crisis, but the single currency has never looked under greater

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threat. After nine days of wrangling party leaders in Greece

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this week gave up their attempt to form a government, raising the

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prospect of a "Grexit" - Greece crashing out of the euro and

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returning to the Drachma. One economist warned that the cost of a

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Eurozone breakup could reach as much as one trillion dollars and

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would hit the UK hard. With depositors apparently taking their

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money out of Greece, we've then heard unconfirmed reports of a run

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on banks in Spain. And last night ratings agency Moody's said 16

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Spanish banks were being downgraded because of the country's weak

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economy. Spain's banking crisis threatens to reach Britain's high

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streets, as the UK arm of Santander was also downgraded. Amid the chaos

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David Cameron has appealed to the eurozone's leaders to take decisive

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action to save the single currency. But will his lectures risk souring

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relations with world leaders gathered near Washington for the

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annual G8 summit? Well he won't be the only world leader calling for

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action, with President Obama urging Europe to stiumulate growth.

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Joining us from Washington DC is our political correspondent Norman

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Smith. He cannot escape this crisis because it will be top of the

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agenda. There is no way round it but what is interesting is that in

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a way David Cameron is perhaps calling for the most radical action

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at the summit. We know Francois Hollande and Barack Obama won more

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pro-growth measure but in Downing Street they are saying the measures

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they're arguing for like bringing forward structural funds and credit

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easing is not enough, it is far too marginal given the scale of the

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economic crisis now. In a funny way, David Cameron finds himself almost

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a closet Euro-federalist having to argue a much more radical cause of

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action including the creation of greater fiscal integration, a much

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higher bail-out fund. So it is not Mr Cameron calling for austerity.

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In a funny way he is the one trying to crank up the pressure on the

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eurozone and needs to do more. is that why we are getting briefing

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saying there is no rift between David Cameron and Francois Hollande,

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bearing in mind the rhetoric has been different in the past? At a

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personal level it would frankly be bizarre if there was not a slight

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coldness between the two. But I think the truth is whatever their

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personal differences I think it would be extraordinary if I was

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allowed to skew of course there talks later today. It would be like

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two neighbours arguing over a hedge when the foundations of the House

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are crumbling. They will be focused on the political, the priority. The

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real focus, the person who will really come under pressure at this

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summit is not David Cameron, not Francois Hollande, certainly not

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Barack Obama, in all likelihood it will be the German Chancellor

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because all the remedies these men are pushing for, all of them

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require stacked loads of money and the only country with a stack loads

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of money is Germany. It will be critical. Good luck. So where does

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this all meet the European project? -- leave. We're joined by former

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Minister for Europe Denis Macshane and UKIP Leader and MEP Nigel

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Farage. So after two years of saying we were at a critical point,

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his is the critical moment when the two options of Greece going or

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Germany doing something dramatic to prevent that? I will give you a

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European answer - yes and no. People just look at Britain, read

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the Financial Times hearing we are in the worst slump since the 19th

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century, that we have cut investment, my firm is ready to go,

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build houses, provide catering service, all they want is a nod

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from the government so what the rest of Europe is doing and saying

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to Britain is Will you help increase demand because we cannot

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get ourselves out about crisis if Britain remains locked in

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stagnation and slump? Arguably that will not help Greece at this stage,

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and it is at that stage where the rest of Europe is looking to. Do

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you think the meeting today will be a make or break? No because I think

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Barack Obama will knock a few heads together and put his ideas forward.

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He needs to knock our view together that the government should not

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spend any money together with Chris's 2% of the grease economy,

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all the money that has gone to them so far has been recycled back to

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banks in Europe, including some in London, which rather than spending

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on improving the Greek economy. The Greek primary deficit is 1%, ours

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is 8%. So actually Greece has a lot of pain to go through but the

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notion Greece will bring Europe down his fantasy. Do you think this

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is a critical moment? I sense we may have passed the point of no

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return. The run on the banks, the rich people got the money out of

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Greece last year, the middle classes and are desperate to get

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their money out. But there are not use of people going round the

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corner like with Northern Rock. Take Spain, a billion euros I think

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we have a bank run going on, and a recognition amongst the electorate

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that the north of Europe is not prepared to pay continually to bail

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out the South. And the South is starting to vote differently as

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well. So you think this is the point at which everyone except

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Greece goes? I think they will go quickly. The does not a remote

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issue for Britain. If Greece goes the risk of contagion, a trillion

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dollars, the cost of a potential break-up, is also huge. The real

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problem is Spain because if it goes after Greece with a domino effect...

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But with your policy that is more likely isn't it? If these countries

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are kept trapped inside the eurozone it could lead to

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revolution, violence, Allsorts of awful things so the best thing is

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to take the medicine to help these countries get out of the euro and

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get our own currencies back. It will be better than staying as we

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are with something that is failing. But that amounts to saying to every

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Greek rush to your bank today, that would be soon, you would have to be

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armed guards outside banks because the money would be under people's

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beds. It is not happening in Spain. It is officially denied. Cash

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deposits went up 20% increase and they are falling this year.

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means people will feel no hope, unable to pay the police, the army,

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goodness knows what will happen, they will flood north light in the

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Yugoslavian crisis, when our government said it was somebody

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else's problem to solve. If we want a million Greeks flooding into the

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UK, go down your road, Spain... him defend it. The Greek economy

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has contracted by 20% over the last years, it is due to fall 67% this

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year, youth unemployment is 57%, we even have neo-Nazi parties winning

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seats in Greek parliament. The situation there is desperate. The

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only hope they have got us a competitive devaluation, to have a

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rebirth in the tourism industry, to give their exports some chance.

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Those are the same scenarios that have been on the table for a long

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time. Is there any notion at this stage that Germany is going to

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finally say OK, we are going to persuade the European Central Bank

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to step in, we're going to prevent Greece leaving the euro to save the

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currency? Or is it they are working on Greece leaving, then they will

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try to save the rest? We might have a clear idea after this weekend.

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There are about 25 different elements to this story. We know the

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answer to some of them. The Spanish bank situation is frightening but

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we know what we need to do because we experience that ourselves and so

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did the US in 2008. You need to throw money at these banks. It

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Spain are now officially denying it as lies. There are not queues

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outside banks to take money out. Spanish banks are solvent, Spanish

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debt is manageable so the Spanish state, we have a Prime Minister who

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I agree on the British element. It is difficult for David Cameron and

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George Osborne to lecture other countries when Britain is part of

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the problem with the economic policy it is pursuing. In terms of

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Greece and whether it will leave the euro, I haven't a clue. We have

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been here about 25 times over the last year. A let me take a look at

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the European project, broadly. Denis McShane, you promoted it at

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the time. It is now endangering jobs and security for millions. Do

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you accept that it has failed? what has endangered jobs and

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security is bad banking policies. This is not just me thinking it,

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but the most respected commentator in Europe. In Britain, we have the

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weakest major economy in the world. But looking at the Eurozone, do you

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accept that that has failed? And not at all. I have just come back

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from Turkey, which would like to join Europe. If you go to eastern

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European countries, even Ireland, the idea that they want to return

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to control of their own currencies and their own national economic

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policies, Nigel believes in that, but I don't. You are stuck with a

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big idea that you believed in for decades. You can't recognise that

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it has gone wrong. People of Europe now want a Europe in which we trade

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together, but one how own national democracies. The other side of that

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argument is that what went wrong was that there was not a closer

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political and fiscal union, which might happen now, with a smaller

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Europe. In is unlikely. You cannot build a political union without the

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political consent inside that union. We tried that with Yugoslavia.

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Nobody in Europe has been asked whether they want most of their

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laws made by the European Commission. They would reject it

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all over Europe. It but Denis MacShane's point, recent programmes

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have shown that many in Greece and Ireland do not want to leave the

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euro. That is as it was in Argentina ten years ago. The day

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before they left, two thirds of people did not want to leave. The

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day after, they were delighted. When the opinion polls do not go

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your way, they are wrong. It is clearly failing. Nigel Farage, I

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know you feel it will not happen, but if Greece does go and maybe

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some of the other southern European countries, and there is a small

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Europe with Germany at the helm, might Britain not be more isolated?

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I thought the Eurozone might work in northern Europe for a time, but

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over the last couple of years, the competitiveness gap between France

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and Germany is also very wide. The whole thing will break-up. In is

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the price of keeping Greece in the euro worth it at whatever cost?

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is for the Greeks to decide. We had two elections in 1974. Some people

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need more than one election to get where they think they should be

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going. A big debate is taking place in Europe. On balance, the idea of

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reintroducing capital controls in countries and bringing back the

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drachma and the peseta would cause havoc for the 800,000 Brits living

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in Spain. They would be the first victims if Spain is affected by the

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Greek problem, which almost certainly will happen. We will work

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our way through this. We adopt new policies such as those that Obama

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and so on are calling for, or we go back into the road of the

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Balkanisation of Europe. We have had arguments about austerity and

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growth, but let's think about the G8's brief, bringing together,

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Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande and Obama - that will be DG8 on the

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phone! So sorry! You are forgiven. The Washington hotline has

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contacted me now to say exactly what Merkel is going to do.

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they really from such different perspectives? They are, no question.

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When David Cameron claims that Hollande is with him in terms of

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what needs to be done, that is not what Hollande himself believes. I

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know that from conversations he has had with others in Britain. There

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are very different ways in which this austerity versus Growth debate

:20:18.:20:27.

could go. When people look back, they will recognise that the media

:20:27.:20:30.

reaction in 2008 to the crisis, which was when we entered this new

:20:30.:20:35.

era, the country's broadly got it right. Obama and Brown, who is not

:20:35.:20:41.

allowed to be mentioned these days, and others, persuaded Merkel to

:20:41.:20:49.

introduce a short-term fiscal stimulus. And Sarkozy. But since,

:20:49.:20:54.

this austerity package within Europe and Britain has stifled the

:20:54.:20:58.

small amount of growth that surfaced after the 2008 crisis.

:20:58.:21:06.

Angela Merkel will not be persuaded. She will not go for the euro bonds,

:21:06.:21:13.

which is David Cameron's idea. big worry is, one reaction in

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Greece might be to cancel the arms deal with Germany. That is what

:21:19.:21:21.

happens when you have the Balkanisation of national economies.

:21:21.:21:27.

They stop trading with each other. I have to say goodbye to you.

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Wiedersehen. British voters have backed UK

:21:32.:21:37.

membership of the European Union in a referendum, but that was in 1975,

:21:37.:21:41.

37 years ago. Now the People's Pledge campaign is trying to put

:21:41.:21:44.

pressure on the Government to hold a new referendum on whether we

:21:44.:21:48.

should stay in the EU. Claiming Europhile as well as Euro-sceptic

:21:48.:21:52.

support, backers range from Tory MPs Mark Reckless and Priti Patel

:21:52.:21:56.

to Caroline Lucas of the Greens and Labour's new policy chief Jon

:21:56.:22:00.

Cruddas. The group held their own mini referendum on the issue in the

:22:00.:22:06.

Essex constituency of Thurrock, where 30% of electors returned

:22:06.:22:09.

ballads and 89% backed the campaign. This morning, they announced plans

:22:09.:22:13.

to hold prefer the votes in the neighbouring Lib Dem help seeds of

:22:13.:22:17.

Manchester Withington, Cheadle and Hazel Grove. With the possibility

:22:17.:22:21.

of a vote on EU membership being taken increasingly seriously by all

:22:21.:22:24.

the political parties, the politicians will be watching with

:22:24.:22:29.

interest. We are joined now by the director of communications for the

:22:29.:22:34.

People's Pledge campaign, Ian Mackenzie. And Anne McElvoy has

:22:34.:22:40.

also made it. Ian, do you want Britain to leave the EU or stay in?

:22:40.:22:44.

The People's Pledge does not have a position on that. We have people

:22:44.:22:48.

from pro Europe and anti-Europe. Personally, I am a Europhile, but I

:22:48.:22:52.

want to take the politics out of it. The British people should decide on

:22:52.:22:56.

our relationship with our European neighbours, not the political

:22:56.:23:01.

parties. It you look at a lot of the polling evidence,

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overwhelmingly, people seem to be more Euro-sceptic. Not necessarily.

:23:06.:23:11.

15% are in favour of staying in without question. 47% in the middle

:23:11.:23:17.

want to renegotiate on some level. We should clear matters up with a

:23:17.:23:23.

referendum so that after 37 years, people have the chance of a say.

:23:23.:23:33.
:23:33.:23:34.

Looking at the results, in the name, would you accept that the people

:23:34.:23:39.

who would respond to a referendum like that would be those motivated

:23:39.:23:44.

by wanting to leave the EU? For at the moment, I can't deny that the

:23:44.:23:48.

centre of gravity is clearly Euro- sceptic, certainly in therapy. It

:23:48.:23:52.

depends where you go, of course. But for the last few decades, we

:23:52.:23:55.

have had Nigel Farage and chaps on the Euro-sceptic wing arguing

:23:55.:24:00.

against it. And the air time for pro-Europeans barely happens.

:24:00.:24:07.

you think if there was more of a debate, the Euro-sceptics have

:24:07.:24:12.

dominated the argument. So you have chosen these three constituencies

:24:12.:24:17.

next. Why those three? Were looked at different options. Many factors

:24:17.:24:22.

were involved - the politics of the MPs and the local parties, our

:24:22.:24:27.

local support, psephology, local statistics. There are all Lib Dem.

:24:27.:24:34.

No particular reason for that? have a Labour MP and a Conservative

:24:34.:24:41.

MP launching a campaign. The smart be music to your ears. I agree. The

:24:41.:24:48.

more people that recognise that that referendum that seven years

:24:48.:24:51.

ago was not about the European Union. My parents did not vote for

:24:51.:24:55.

that, they voted to stay part of a Common Market, a very different

:24:55.:25:00.

thing to what we have today. The more debate there is, the better.

:25:00.:25:04.

Anne McElvoy, does it test the temperature of people in terms of

:25:04.:25:09.

wanting a referendum? Bitch should certainly test the temperature. But

:25:09.:25:13.

I am not clear up what it is a referendum on. When he and talks

:25:13.:25:17.

about it clarify our relations, if you are going to do that, you could

:25:17.:25:21.

have done that at many points. The Lisbon Treaty might have been the

:25:21.:25:25.

moment to do it, but there was not the political will to go ahead. At

:25:25.:25:30.

the moment, it is hard to say what the EU will be very shortly. So

:25:31.:25:34.

there is a charity issues that face us this campaign, which is what are

:25:34.:25:38.

you asking people to vote on? From a Europhile position, you want

:25:38.:25:43.

people to renegotiate. You can't have a referendum asking if we can

:25:43.:25:47.

renegotiate. Referendums give you clear and blunt outcomes. You are

:25:47.:25:52.

muddying the waters if you bring in renegotiation. It is either out or

:25:52.:25:58.

in on the terms on the table. Firstly, we are not talking about

:25:58.:26:01.

renegotiating now. We would want to focus on the crisis. The next

:26:01.:26:05.

Parliament would be the time to do it. A referendum requires a

:26:05.:26:08.

referendum Act, which needs a referendum bill, and that requires

:26:08.:26:13.

consent among the parties. That can only happened after a general

:26:13.:26:18.

election. But that he may look different by then. Let's find out.

:26:18.:26:22.

But you should find out, because you are putting this before the

:26:22.:26:28.

people. I have a problem with the principle of referendums. Firstly,

:26:28.:26:33.

they don't change anything for very long. If you look at the 1975

:26:33.:26:38.

referendum, by 1979 onwards, Labour were arguing to pull out of the

:26:38.:26:46.

European Union or the Common Market, as it was. The other thing is, it

:26:46.:26:50.

is always used in Britain - I know Nigel has been campaigning for it

:26:51.:26:54.

for a long time - for party political reasons. I bet Labour

:26:54.:26:59.

will adopt a referendum proposal, but it will be partly to

:26:59.:27:05.

outmanoeuvre the Tories. It is always done for the wrong reason. I

:27:05.:27:13.

am a referendum sceptic. They are promised and never held. What would

:27:13.:27:21.

be the point of UKIP after that? we have a referendum and we vote to

:27:21.:27:25.

leave the European Union, that will be day one of Britain being able to

:27:25.:27:30.

renew herself, to fulfil a global role. We are the only party putting

:27:30.:27:35.

together policies for how Britain could be run them. And the end what

:27:35.:27:41.

will you do? Get a proper job. are coming to that in a moment.

:27:41.:27:45.

Now, the leader of the Greens is standing down from the job,

:27:45.:27:48.

although she will stay on as an MP. Caroline Lucas says she is doing it

:27:48.:27:52.

so that other members of her party can raise their profiles, but can

:27:52.:27:56.

the smaller parties ever get over the problem that sometimes their

:27:56.:28:06.
:28:06.:28:09.

leaders are bigger than they are? Let's call it the Gulliver dilemma.

:28:09.:28:15.

What do you do if you are a big political figure, but your party is

:28:15.:28:19.

a bit small? That question has been posed after the Greens' any MP,

:28:19.:28:23.

Caroline Lucas, announced that she is standing down as the party's

:28:23.:28:28.

leader so that others can share the limelight. The problem a lot of

:28:28.:28:31.

small parties have is that their leader becomes huge in political

:28:32.:28:35.

terms, and there is a vacuum below them. The danger for the Greens

:28:35.:28:38.

would be that they became more about Caroline Lucas and not the

:28:38.:28:42.

rest of the party. It is an opportunity for someone else to

:28:42.:28:46.

step forward. Sadly for UKIP, when their leader Nigel Farage decided

:28:46.:28:52.

to stand down, the person who stepped forward was Lord Pearson.

:28:52.:28:55.

Has he read your manifesto? A course. You don't seem familiar

:28:55.:29:00.

with it. I had not read it all in detail. He did not come to talk

:29:00.:29:05.

about your manifesto? I did, but not in the detailed... Of whether I

:29:05.:29:08.

have talked to some policemen in some car park. Which is why Mr

:29:08.:29:15.

Farage returned pretty soon afterwards. Although sometimes, it

:29:15.:29:20.

is help for having a boss who is famous. I have seen you on the

:29:20.:29:26.

telly. Rob it Kilroy-Silk launched veritas in 2000 and pets five, and

:29:26.:29:32.

then left. Can you name their current leader? And the referendum

:29:32.:29:36.

Party of the late '90s may be a gift -- distant memory, but the

:29:36.:29:41.

high profile of their founder, Sir James Goldsmith, helped them secure

:29:41.:29:50.

around 800,000 votes at a general election. Celebrity can sometimes

:29:50.:29:55.

create confusion, though. Many think George Galloway's the leader

:29:55.:30:00.

of Respect. He is not, he is just a humble MP. It is easy to make fun

:30:00.:30:05.

of these people who tower over their party. But underestimate them

:30:05.:30:10.

at your peril. They help set the agenda for the larger parties.

:30:10.:30:13.

Whereas no one would pretend that UKIP will be a major electoral

:30:13.:30:18.

force, the influence of UKIP is felt more in terms of how the other

:30:18.:30:22.

parties react. Ditto with the Greens. They have certainly managed

:30:22.:30:26.

to ensure that their agenda, albeit from their perspective watered down,

:30:27.:30:31.

is now a permanent part of the three main parties. There may be

:30:31.:30:34.

all this talk about the Bishop distracting from the fact that all

:30:34.:30:38.

parties, no matter what size they are, need enough little people to

:30:38.:30:42.

do the difficult work, things like knocking on doors. Wheel size

:30:42.:30:52.
:30:52.:30:53.

Nigel Farage are still with us. Small parties benefit from having a

:30:53.:30:56.

larger than life of vocal leader like yourself. More many smaller

:30:56.:31:00.

parties are founded by somebody, drawn from the top and support

:31:00.:31:04.

comes up towards the leader and you see this across Europe. In this

:31:04.:31:10.

country I would argue UKIP is different, the Greens are similar,

:31:10.:31:12.

where grass roots movement where the support for the party bubbles

:31:12.:31:18.

up from the bottom. There has never been a dominant figure. What?!

:31:18.:31:25.

There was briefly with that suntan follow -- fellow. I beg to differ.

:31:25.:31:35.
:31:35.:31:35.

You what the dominant figure. -- you are. If I were to fall under a

:31:35.:31:41.

bus, have a crash, who knows? If I disappeared tomorrow, UKIP would

:31:41.:31:48.

not disappear. The up we be as successful? For many people you are

:31:48.:31:53.

UKIP. We are a grassroots organisation, 300 branches in the

:31:53.:31:56.

country, I might be the dominant figure at the moment but it is

:31:56.:32:01.

about more than me. But if you were to step aside for whatever reason,

:32:01.:32:05.

where are the next generation of UKIP leaders? There are a couple of

:32:05.:32:08.

people that could do the job now actually, people have been elected

:32:09.:32:12.

to European Parliament, gained political experience. It would not

:32:12.:32:16.

be easy but it never is. Why did not come into this as a known

:32:16.:32:25.

celebrity, I came to this as a nobody. I had to work at it.

:32:25.:32:30.

Hooker takeover now? Can you think of somebody? -- who could takeover

:32:30.:32:36.

now. I would struggle with that because as you say it is grassroots,

:32:36.:32:39.

you have good women associated with other things, known for campaigning

:32:39.:32:44.

on those issues. They are UKIP but not really associated in the public

:32:44.:32:48.

mind with it. You also have powerful figures who like to stay a

:32:48.:32:56.

bit behind the scenes. You have funders, grassroots, but what tends

:32:56.:33:01.

to happen is that somebody emerges who can catch the public

:33:01.:33:09.

imagination as you have, then it is very difficult when you go. It will

:33:09.:33:14.

not be easy to say I am moving out of the way for Caroline Lucas and

:33:14.:33:17.

somebody steps in. But is not how small parties work. What effect

:33:17.:33:22.

will it have on the greens of Caroline stepping down? Would

:33:22.:33:28.

smaller parties, although the leader's personality is important,

:33:28.:33:33.

and you are one of the great media performers in that... We are being

:33:33.:33:41.

so nice to! Forget about him! issue for the smaller parties is

:33:41.:33:47.

the issue they are identified with and how salient it is. That was

:33:47.:33:50.

arranged in question, if Nigel gets this referendum and Britain votes

:33:50.:33:55.

to stay in the European Union, what role then just for Nigel but for

:33:55.:34:00.

UKIP? Similarly for the Greens, when Caroline Lucas got that see

:34:00.:34:05.

the environment was one of the big issues before the recession.

:34:05.:34:09.

Weather remains as salient in the economic doldrums is a bigger issue

:34:09.:34:13.

when parties are associated with one particular policy area. I think

:34:13.:34:18.

their fate is more dependent on the policy area they are associated

:34:18.:34:24.

with. That may have been true, certainly a few years ago. But over

:34:24.:34:27.

the last few years we have broadened and people are voting for

:34:27.:34:32.

us in local elections. No electoral success has not been great. We do

:34:32.:34:35.

look at our progress in local elections just a couple of weeks

:34:35.:34:39.

ago people are going out and voting for us for more reasons than just

:34:39.:34:44.

the European question. A accept that question now was so salient at

:34:44.:34:50.

the top of the agenda. Let's look as some other nationalist parties.

:34:50.:34:56.

Look at Alex Salmond, not a small party but does that apply in the

:34:56.:35:00.

same way? No question. What did they have the referendum in

:35:00.:35:05.

Scotland and there was a boat to keep the union? I don't think I

:35:05.:35:11.

agree. I don't think Alex Salmond will go up for something you the

:35:11.:35:14.

things that will be the outcome, he will shaded towards an endless

:35:14.:35:24.

progression towards deep Lomax and He will keep pushing for more

:35:24.:35:28.

Scottish Power's and it does have bass drum and bass in the

:35:28.:35:37.

electorate. He could miss time it and get the wrong result. I would

:35:37.:35:41.

be surprised if we went back here and there was some SNP to be

:35:41.:35:47.

dealing with. The decline may be. We always bring you great political

:35:47.:35:51.

TV for free. So today we are going to be something Vos. After the

:35:51.:35:54.

programme go to your nearest computer, go on the internet and

:35:54.:35:59.

fill in an online survey run by the University of Strathclyde to test

:35:59.:36:09.
:36:09.:36:17.

how the nation really feels. Here How was the country feeling? The

:36:17.:36:19.

question of researchers at Strathclyde University are trying

:36:19.:36:26.

to answer would their survey. You log on anonymously, say where you

:36:26.:36:29.

are, answer a few questions and 15 minutes later the website will then

:36:29.:36:35.

take you where you are on the optimism scale. How do you feel

:36:35.:36:39.

about the events taking place around due, difficult circumstances,

:36:39.:36:44.

economic change, constitutional change, political change? How do

:36:44.:36:53.

they make you feel? Happy, nervous, when do things about pride? We are

:36:53.:37:00.

trying to get that sense. What you feel, rather than what you think.

:37:00.:37:04.

The is is the address to go to... We will bring you the result in a

:37:05.:37:09.

few weeks. Trust me, this is not your average online questionnaire.

:37:10.:37:18.

We look forward to it. The Web address for back survey is on our

:37:18.:37:27.

Facebook page. Now, the government are consulting on plans to increase

:37:28.:37:31.

the speed limit on motorways and some dual carriageways to 80 miles

:37:31.:37:34.

per hour, up from today's limit of 70. They say the current limit has

:37:34.:37:36.

been discredited because most drivers routinely exceed it and

:37:36.:37:39.

also claim it will have economic benefits. Road safety campaigners

:37:39.:37:42.

take a different view saying the change will inevitably lead to more

:37:42.:37:46.

fatalities. So, who's right? We're joined by Julie Townsend, Deputy

:37:46.:37:49.

Chief Executive of Brake and motoring journalist and former Top

:37:49.:37:54.

Gear presenter Chris Goffey. Julie, what is your worry on this? We are

:37:55.:37:58.

desperately concerned that if we see motorway speed limit increased

:37:58.:38:02.

we will see more devastating crashes and casualties on the roads.

:38:02.:38:07.

We have a range of evidence that indicate even a small increase in

:38:07.:38:10.

average speeds on our motorways will mean more people being

:38:10.:38:15.

needlessly and violently killed, more people being injured and this

:38:15.:38:19.

increases the burden on health and emergency services so it has

:38:19.:38:23.

economic repercussions and increased emissions as well.

:38:23.:38:29.

sounds like a terrible idea. A does, doesn't it? You can't argue with

:38:29.:38:32.

Brake, they're a great charity you have done great work. They were

:38:32.:38:37.

founded because a lady was killed in her car by a tanker that had did

:38:37.:38:43.

to -- had defective brakes. Since then they have campaigned for HTVs

:38:43.:38:49.

to be safer. But this does not affect HTVs, they will keep going

:38:49.:38:53.

at 56 miles an hour, their limit. But the rest of us are driving

:38:53.:38:56.

Rotimi at 80 miles an hour, being tolerated by police because our

:38:56.:39:03.

cars have moved on since 1965 when the limit came in. Sir it would

:39:03.:39:07.

just formalise what happens anyway, most people drive within that 10

:39:07.:39:12.

mile per hour grace that is given to them. We have not seen the sort

:39:12.:39:17.

of thing you have described over the last 10 years. All on the

:39:17.:39:26.

contrary, our fatalities have come rocketing down. -- on the contrary.

:39:26.:39:31.

2010 was the best year ever for casualties in the UK. We have seen

:39:31.:39:35.

casualties fall dramatically, thankfully, in recent decades. Part

:39:35.:39:39.

of the reason for that is improved compliance with speed limits across

:39:39.:39:48.

our roads. No. Mo is people flout as 70 mile limit. A lot of people

:39:48.:39:54.

do. It is only a minority that get up to 80 at any given time. In any

:39:54.:39:57.

case, we would argue that just because we have people breaking the

:39:57.:40:01.

law at present does not mean that law is wrong, all we should raise

:40:01.:40:07.

it. We have this evidence, academic research which shows if we raise

:40:08.:40:11.

the limits we would see an increase in average speeds and we will

:40:11.:40:15.

therefore seem more crashes and casualties. What about a bit was

:40:15.:40:19.

enforced properly at 80 mph, if there was not that ten-mile grace,

:40:19.:40:22.

you have audit sceptred fatalities have come down, would you be happy

:40:22.:40:30.

with that? We would like to see improved speed enforcement on the

:40:30.:40:33.

motorways, we don't want to see that accompanied with an increase

:40:33.:40:39.

in the maximum speed limit. In fact, there has been a study which looked

:40:39.:40:44.

at this option of raising the limit and improving enforcement, it

:40:45.:40:48.

looked at introduced in 100 more average speed cameras across the

:40:48.:40:51.

network and raising the limit. They still found an increasing

:40:51.:40:54.

casualties. We would argue we should be coming at this from the

:40:54.:40:57.

other direction, how to improve safety and speed management and

:40:57.:41:03.

deliver the economic benefits associated with it. So the economic

:41:03.:41:06.

benefits that have been talked about, is that a bit overblown,

:41:06.:41:10.

that if we could drive faster there would be no traffic and the economy

:41:10.:41:15.

would be doing better? I don't think it is a huge economic

:41:15.:41:19.

argument, average speed journey times will not come down that much

:41:19.:41:22.

but it is the practicality of everyday life on the motorway and

:41:22.:41:26.

the fact that cars are so much safer, the technology has come on

:41:27.:41:34.

so far since the 70 limit was introduced that we are reasonable

:41:34.:41:40.

people driving at the sensible cruising speed of our cars. Do you

:41:40.:41:44.

drive too fast? S certainly did when I came back from living in

:41:44.:41:50.

Germany where there is effectively no speed limit. I learnt my lesson,

:41:50.:41:54.

I got my points and I'd learned by lesson. I am sceptical about this

:41:54.:42:04.

change because what I have seen in Germany is that people will drive

:42:04.:42:08.

faster, that is the thing I would worry about in Britain, we are used

:42:08.:42:14.

to that 10% give, fatalities are higher, and if there is a crash the

:42:14.:42:20.

chance of fatalities becomes much higher. I think that is a

:42:20.:42:24.

reasonable thing for the state to get involved in trying to keep it

:42:24.:42:34.
:42:34.:42:36.

down. I don't see it as an attack on my liberty. Is there a point at

:42:36.:42:40.

which you say why don't you bring it down to 60, if it is so

:42:40.:42:45.

dangerous, why stop at 70? You could say let's pitch it at 50. Is

:42:45.:42:49.

there an ideal point at which the number of deaths are acceptable?

:42:49.:42:54.

Having made a strong argument for the nanny state earlier in the

:42:55.:42:58.

programme, I disagree with that, I am quite relaxed about the speed

:42:58.:43:08.
:43:08.:43:09.

limit going up. Simply because... You have a fast car. A don't have a

:43:09.:43:14.

fast car. Whenever I buy a car people say it goes tour hundred and

:43:14.:43:17.

142 minutes. Obviously cars are more technologically developed

:43:17.:43:22.

since the 1960s and everybody does it so it really does not bother me

:43:22.:43:26.

that much if they formalise it. I do not think that will mean people

:43:26.:43:34.

then go from 80 to 90. Are you so sure about that? Every year in

:43:34.:43:40.

Germany I drove a bit faster and I really had to rehabilitate myself.

:43:40.:43:42.

They dread that extraordinary speeds there because there is no

:43:42.:43:50.

constraint. We are going back to Europe here! No more! Now, have you

:43:50.:43:54.

ever sent a text or an email to the wrong person? Can be a bit

:43:54.:43:58.

embarrassing, can't it? Well, how embarrassing depends on who you

:43:58.:44:02.

send it to and if they pass it on. It happened to Labour whip Lyn

:44:02.:44:07.

Brown yesterday. Take a look at this. My honourable friend, the

:44:07.:44:12.

government's Treasury whip, just received this text, a Labour Whip

:44:12.:44:15.

saying Please Please come to the chamber for the start of the final

:44:15.:44:19.

day of the Queen's Speech today, Ed Balls is opening for us and really

:44:19.:44:29.
:44:29.:44:37.

I'd give way to the lady who said the text! Can I explain to the

:44:37.:44:40.

honourable gentleman that we have a very different and more effective

:44:40.:44:50.

way of whipping our benches than he clearly has on his. Finally, to do

:44:50.:44:52.

with the economy, the Chancellor needs to pay more attention to

:44:52.:44:56.

detail because that was not the right reading of the text. Indeed,

:44:56.:45:06.

it was not accurate, just like much else he does. The Labour Party

:45:06.:45:10.

certainly does have a different whipping operation, they send their

:45:10.:45:16.

information to the other political party! How best to avoid those

:45:16.:45:26.
:45:26.:45:28.

awkward moments? Giles still what With most politicians having some

:45:28.:45:31.

kind of electronic device, you'd think they would be technologically

:45:31.:45:36.

savvy, but some don't know their apps from their e-mail. Here is my

:45:36.:45:40.

guide to using electronic devices. While rallying your backbenchers,

:45:40.:45:44.

pay attention to the mobile phone number you are texting. A couple of

:45:44.:45:49.

digits amiss, and you could be handing the opposition a cyber coup.

:45:49.:45:53.

Why she had the other mobile number is something of a mystery.

:45:53.:45:57.

When tweeting about leaks to journalists, make sure that hush-

:45:57.:46:02.

hush info is sent as a private message. Chris Huhne wrote someone

:46:02.:46:06.

saying that he didn't want his fingerprints all over the story.

:46:06.:46:09.

Unfortunately, it was posted to thousands of his followers and

:46:09.:46:13.

retweeted to thousands more. Linger on your lingo before

:46:13.:46:16.

pressing cent. Former News International executive Rebekah

:46:16.:46:20.

Brooks reveal to the Leveson inquiry that David Cameron had

:46:20.:46:25.

signed off text messages aloe well, apparently thinking it meant lots

:46:25.:46:31.

of love. Don't let the office in turn get

:46:31.:46:35.

their hands on your Twitter account. An intern in Tom Watson's office

:46:35.:46:40.

caused consternation by logging on as Tom and using inappropriate and

:46:40.:46:44.

controversial language. And context, darling, context.

:46:44.:46:49.

Britain doesn't have any, so do you really want to post that tweet?

:46:49.:46:54.

Diane Abbott was accused of racism after saying that white people love

:46:54.:47:02.

playing divide and rule. She was forced to apologise.

:47:02.:47:08.

We are joined by Labour MP and confirmed Luddite Stephen Pound. Is

:47:08.:47:18.

that your new title? Embarrassing for Lyn Brown, wasn't it? You can

:47:18.:47:21.

come a cropper with tweeting, particularly in the Wapping

:47:21.:47:25.

operation. Were that true, it would be embarrassing, but it is a load

:47:25.:47:31.

of cobblers. I don't know what the rules about calling MP a lie are

:47:31.:47:37.

outside the chamber. It is on parliamentary inside the chamber. -

:47:37.:47:44.

- unparliamentary. Her I happen to have here in my hand - this is what

:47:44.:47:47.

the word - please come to the chamber for the start of the final

:47:47.:47:50.

day of the Queen's Speech. Ed Balls has opening for us. We have

:47:50.:47:53.

dominated so far. It is important to finish with a strong, confident

:47:53.:48:00.

finish. There is nothing there about "help out poor Ed". Ed was

:48:00.:48:06.

tearing strips off George Osborne. He was marvellous. He was in

:48:06.:48:12.

Godzilla mode. Hasn't this exposed the darker arts of whooping and

:48:12.:48:16.

political spin for what they are? Where there you read that out as

:48:16.:48:21.

the truth, as you say, or it is paraphrased by George Osborne, it

:48:21.:48:24.

just shows what goes on behind the scenes. That makes it a dangerous

:48:24.:48:29.

tool. It is different from the old dark arts of Wapping, which were

:48:29.:48:34.

more physical than electronic. It was like the last day of the

:48:34.:48:36.

football season. Everyone was watching their football team and

:48:37.:48:40.

listening to other matches going on. And in the chamber nowadays, it is

:48:40.:48:47.

like a group of penitence at prayer. You see these heads bent over these

:48:47.:48:53.

things, getting information. The other day, suddenly everybody was

:48:53.:48:58.

talking about Kenny Dalglish. You can't concentrate. Is it a bad

:48:58.:49:02.

thing in that sense, that you are keeping up so much of the time - I

:49:02.:49:05.

do it myself - you are inching through the stories as they

:49:05.:49:10.

happened, and it detracts from what is going on at the time? It becomes

:49:10.:49:15.

part of what is going on. This is what is weird at the moment. Prime

:49:15.:49:19.

Minister's Question Time is really interesting, because you see the

:49:19.:49:23.

press people of Cameron and Miliband looking at their iPads and

:49:23.:49:26.

phones to see what the Twitter verdicts are on Cameron and

:49:26.:49:30.

Miliband. So the two leaders know immediately when they leave the

:49:30.:49:34.

Chamber of whether they have robbed or been a success. I keep getting

:49:34.:49:44.
:49:44.:49:45.

messages in real time in PMQs from the teams, pointing out things that

:49:45.:49:50.

are on Twitter. That has accelerated massively since Stephen

:49:50.:49:58.

and I started watching. Have you made any terrible faux pas?

:49:58.:50:02.

remember surprising some so-called followers. It is very dangerous to

:50:02.:50:08.

do it when you have had a few drinks. That applies to many things.

:50:08.:50:12.

But with Twitter, you forget that it is a public forum after a vat of

:50:12.:50:18.

wine or two. I have tweeted in these circumstances. And people

:50:18.:50:21.

have expressed surprise at the messages. I will not reveal what

:50:21.:50:27.

they were. We want to know! Then I looked to see if I had any replies,

:50:27.:50:33.

and they said "rather surprised at that comment, blah, blah, blah". I

:50:33.:50:37.

was going to explain that I was completely... Plastered. Should it

:50:37.:50:41.

be avoided? Tony Blair had the right idea. He still wrote with a

:50:41.:50:46.

quill pen, but he did not send e- mails. He would not have had a

:50:46.:50:52.

Leveson moment in that sense. but as we saw with the Hutton

:50:52.:50:56.

Inquiry and many other post-mortems on the Labour government, once

:50:56.:51:00.

everyone started e-mailing each other, the next step would be that

:51:00.:51:05.

you did it on Twitter on social networks, so you can't stop it. And

:51:05.:51:13.

you can make a mistake when you are doing it in a hurry. This was a

:51:13.:51:17.

slightly pleading tone to the text. It was only intended to be seen by

:51:17.:51:22.

supporters, but seen from the other side, it is funny, like it was when

:51:22.:51:27.

I e-mailed my boss and left a list of things. And she said, I don't

:51:28.:51:36.

think this is for me. It was for the cleaner. Lyn Brown, that is her

:51:36.:51:43.

style. She does not do robotic tones. That is the danger. That is

:51:43.:51:48.

the point. I am still trying to work out how Greg got hold of it.

:51:48.:51:54.

That is for you to find out. I have got Gregg's on my speed dire!

:51:54.:51:58.

senior politician said to me that in the age of Twitter, nothing is

:51:58.:52:01.

off the record. Work on the assumption that everything will be

:52:01.:52:07.

known. That is what they said when e-mail came in. Let's go back to

:52:07.:52:12.

the quills. If we had a quill, we would give it to you as a parting

:52:12.:52:17.

gift, but we don't. Thank you very much.

:52:17.:52:21.

Now, in case you have not been paying attention, time to catch up

:52:21.:52:25.

on the political Week That Was. Here is Susana Mendonca with the

:52:25.:52:32.

week in 60 seconds. The new French President might have

:52:32.:52:34.

wondered whether the thunder was trying to tell him something this

:52:35.:52:38.

week. First it rained on his victory parade. Then a lightning

:52:38.:52:42.

bolt struck his plane while he was heading to meet Angela Merkel. The

:52:43.:52:45.

German Chancellor was trying to steer Francois Hollande in her

:52:45.:52:49.

direction on growth in the Eurozone. David Cameron had his own advice.

:52:50.:52:54.

It either has to make up, or it is looking at a break-up. Theresa May

:52:54.:53:00.

felt the force of the law as she faced police off the beat. Wasn't

:53:00.:53:05.

that an awkward backdrop? The Hunter became the hunted in the

:53:05.:53:10.

hacking saga, as Rebekah Brooks and her husband faced charges of

:53:10.:53:14.

conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. Unjust, they claimed.

:53:14.:53:19.

ratchet up the pressure on my wife, who is the subject of a witch-hunt.

:53:19.:53:23.

Played a seemed to tilt to the left in Ed Miliband's Mini reshuffle.

:53:23.:53:27.

And David Cameron revealed that his favourite album is Pink Floyd's

:53:27.:53:34.

backside of the moon. Is that another economic doom metaphor?

:53:34.:53:39.

That Was the Week That Was. Anne McElvoy, why don't we do a bit on

:53:39.:53:42.

growth, since you missed the beginning? We were talking about

:53:42.:53:46.

the rhetoric and everybody commented after David Cameron's

:53:46.:53:50.

speech that his rhetoric has changed. Is it heartfelt, or is it

:53:50.:53:54.

just to chime with Francois Hollande's arrival?

:53:54.:53:58.

government's position has always been more adaptive on this than it

:53:58.:54:02.

wanted to headline. It wanted to have clear blue water with Labour

:54:02.:54:07.

by saying "we are the party not afraid to do this austerity cutting

:54:07.:54:11.

thing properly". And then, as that has become less proven to be

:54:11.:54:15.

popular, we don't know if it will work in the long run, but at the

:54:15.:54:25.

moment the fashion is that Francois Hollande has come in on the left.

:54:25.:54:29.

This has always been a flexible proposition. They did increase

:54:29.:54:33.

spending and some point, and they also used quantitative easing, but

:54:33.:54:37.

they put out the message that they were super tough. They did not say

:54:37.:54:40.

they were super flexible, so we are now seeing that side. People will

:54:40.:54:45.

be confused. That is one reason why Labour's poll ratings on the

:54:45.:54:52.

economy have risen in the last week. Labour have pulled ahead in a

:54:52.:54:56.

significant way now. Some might say it is about time, bearing in mind

:54:56.:55:03.

what is going on in the economy. It was posed Budget that the big pull

:55:03.:55:07.

away happened. Is it that, or is it that people just don't believe the

:55:07.:55:12.

austerity message any more? Bearing in mind that we have been in

:55:12.:55:14.

difficult times for the last two years, why have Labour pulled

:55:15.:55:20.

ahead? De events of recent weeks have created a sense that the

:55:20.:55:24.

coalition and Cameron and Osborne in particular are not as competent

:55:24.:55:28.

as people thought. When you have doubts about competence, you then

:55:29.:55:32.

question the fundamental argument about the economic policy. And that

:55:32.:55:39.

gives them a chance to say, hold on a second, and in some cases turn

:55:39.:55:47.

back to Labour or least give them a hearing. But I do not think this is

:55:47.:55:51.

necessarily just a mid-term phenomenon. The local elections

:55:51.:55:56.

were interesting in their spread of Labour support. They are the only

:55:56.:56:01.

party now with support around the UK. If they are clever, they could

:56:01.:56:08.

use that to give themselves a new and credible picture. And it is not

:56:08.:56:13.

just the public. The timing has also been interesting, coincidental

:56:13.:56:18.

or not, of Peter Mandelson and Tony Blair, who have been quiet since Ed

:56:18.:56:21.

Miliband became leader of the Labour Party. But now they want to

:56:21.:56:26.

re-enter the domestic political scene. They believe Ed Miliband

:56:26.:56:29.

could be a future prime minister? Are I am not sure if they do

:56:29.:56:33.

believe that, but they think it is a possibility. And they both have

:56:33.:56:37.

reasons for wanting to get their own profile back up again domestic

:56:37.:56:47.
:56:47.:56:49.

kick. -- domestically. These five- year terms are very long. So it is

:56:49.:56:54.

all right to flounce out for a while. Then you suddenly think,

:56:54.:56:58.

during year three or four, maybe there are things they want to say.

:56:58.:57:01.

Mr Blair needs to reconnect with the domestic electorate for the

:57:02.:57:07.

sake of his own standing. It is true that they would not come back

:57:07.:57:10.

if Ed Miliband looked like an absolute basket case. Do you think

:57:10.:57:15.

he could be a future prime minister? When you ask me that

:57:15.:57:18.

directly, I still have difficulty seeing him on the steps of Number

:57:18.:57:25.

10. Leadership is his weakness. He is very bright and broad in the way

:57:25.:57:29.

he handles things. He has a good temperament, but he does not look

:57:29.:57:34.

like a confident leader. He needs to grab moments such as the great

:57:34.:57:37.

result in the local elections. Was the speech he gave after the best

:57:37.:57:41.

speech he could have given? He misses moments. Leaders need to

:57:41.:57:46.

catch moments. Find a look, look at this and see if you can work out

:57:46.:57:49.

why Lib Dem MP Tessa Munt is losing it on the floor of the House of

:57:49.:57:51.

Commons? We will announce our conclusion

:57:52.:58:01.
:58:02.:58:03.

shortly. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sorry. Right. Was it something I

:58:03.:58:09.

said? I hope not. I look forward to hearing the honourable lady.

:58:09.:58:13.

you spot what happened? If not, here is a second chance from

:58:13.:58:17.

another angle. Keep your eye on Charles Hendry at the dispatch box

:58:17.:58:20.

on the left-hand side of the screen. We will announce our conclusion

:58:20.:58:30.
:58:30.:58:31.

shortly. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Oh, dear. If you did not spot it,

:58:31.:58:35.

Charles Hendry, the energy minister, managed to sit down on top of his

:58:36.:58:39.

boss, Lib Dem climate change Secretary of State Ed Davey. No

:58:39.:58:43.

wonder Tessa Munt lost it. And Ed Davey will be one of Andrew's

:58:43.:58:48.

guests this Sunday on the Sunday Politics at noon on BBC One. See

:58:48.:58:51.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and guests including UKIP leader Nigel Farage and former Europe Minister Denis MacShane on the euro crisis.

What are the arguments for and against raising the speed limit to 80mph?

And what happens when a politician more famous than the party they lead stands down?


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