Browse content similar to 15/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. As dark economic | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
clouds gather over Madrid, Rome and Athens, in good old Blighty, the | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
Chancellor decides it is time for some pre-emptive action. We can | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
deploy new firepower to defend our economy from the crisis on our | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
doorstep. We will assess just how close the eurozone is to the brink | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
and ask whether George and made in's plants can really save the day | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
at home. It's been another of those | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
difficult weeks for the coalition. Dave and Nick fall-out over Jeremy. | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
Given all of the time they spend arguing, how does the coalition | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
government actually work? It has been a star studded week at | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the Leveson Inquiry. In case you missed them, we will have the best | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
bits from the big hitters. Could you stand up in front of your | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
workmates and say this? I was visited by an obsessive compulsive | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
disorder. Over the past 31 years, it has played a fairly significant | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
part in my life. We will talk to one of the MPs who were opened | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
:01:54. | :01:54. | ||
their hearts on mental health in So, all of that is coming up in the | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
next hour. With us for the duration, Andrew Pierce of the Daily Mail and | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
political commentator Gaby Hinsliff. Welcome to you both. | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
Let's start once again with the euro crisis. Chancellor George | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
Osborne and Governor of the Bank of England Mervyn King last night | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
announced new liquidity and lending measures designed to protect | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
Britain from the DEC storm that is gathering across the Channel. The | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
Government assessment of economic prospects was especially gloomy. | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
The other effect of the crisis has been to create a large black cloud | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
of uncertainty hanging over not only the euro area but our economy | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
and, indeed, the world economy as a whole. Complete uncertainty means | :02:40. | :02:50. | |
:02:50. | :02:50. | ||
that the risks that will yield returns in five years' time are | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
impossible to quantify. The black cloud has dampened spirits so that | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
businesses and households are battening down the hatches to | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
prepare for the storms ahead. The result is that lower spending leads | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
to lower incomes and a self- reinforcing weaker picture for | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
growth. There is none so cheery as a | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
central bank governor these days(!) We have been tottering on the brink | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
of the abyss for some time, the apocalypse just around the corner. | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
It never quite happens. The Chancellor and the Governor would | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
not be proposing �400 billion worth of extra liquidity for our banks if | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
they didn't feel that something horrible was about to happen. With | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
Greece's second election coming on Sunday and interest rates on ten- | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
year bonds hitting 10% in Spain, which is unsustainable. We are | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
joined by Allister Heath from City AM. They think something bad is | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
about to happen, don't they? Clearly something is very wrong in | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
the eurozone. First you have the Greek elections, if they vote for | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
and against a pro-austerity party, and we don't know, because there | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
are no polls, then we will leave the euro very quickly indeed. That | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
is a major event. A lot of people believe it will be a Lehman | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
Brothers style event, triggering intense disruption. The second | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
problem is Spain. Spain is spiralling out of control. Its bail | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
out failed miserably. In fact, it caused more problems than it solved, | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
interest rates have gone up. Although Greece is a small economy, | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
even if they do leave the eurozone as a result of the elections, or | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
other matters, the firewall that was meant to be in place to stop | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
the contagion spreading into Spain and Italy is not there, and they | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
are both incredibly vulnerable? Absolutely. That is why they tried | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
to bail-out Spain a week ago. To show they are strong, they have a | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
plan of action and a workable firewall. Within a few minutes, or | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
at least a few hours, the markets basically call their bluff. They | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
say this is not a proper firewall, you're making the situation worse. | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
What happens if Greece leaves the euro? Nobody has a clue. That is | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
why central bankers are preparing all sorts of measures to pump | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
liquidity into the system if things go wrong. We are all paying more | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
attention to what comes out of Berlin these days because of what | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
we have just been talking about. Has it not been remarkable this | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
week, the radio silence from Berlin? They are not really saying | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
anything. Absolutely. That suggests to me that they are starting to | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
lose patience with the whole system. Quite clearly, they did not want to | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
underwrite the entire risks of the eurozone. Something very | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
interesting has been happening. The interest-rate on German bonds has | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
actually started to go up. The reason for that is, yes, Germany is | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
a very strong economy. But even they cannot take on the entire debt | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
of all of the banks and all the countries of the eurozone. We are | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
running out of time here. This is economics. Economics is a | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
constraint. You cannot go any further, really. George Osborne has | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
now indicated twice, hinted, that Greece will probably have to leave | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
before the Germans will get around to sorting out the remains of the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
eurozone. If it were to leave, it could have a sense that you lose | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
control over. Do you get the impression that in London, now, the | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
view is that Greece is going to go and, by the way, it should go? | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
think that is the consensus, generally speaking. A lot of multi- | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
national countries accept that. There were stories of a large | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
French company preparing to pull out of Greece. I think that is | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
definitely the most likely outcome. The problem is, how are they going | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
to react? What measures are the European authorities going to put | :06:38. | :06:47. | |
into place when Greece does leave? There were some people against the | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
whole formation of the eurozone. They were widely ridiculed by the | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
establishment commentators at the time. But even the critics never | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
thought that the eurozone would unravel in such a way that it | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
threatens everybody? Yes. The Cassandras are all saying, you did | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
not listen to us and we were right. They have every right to say that, | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
although they didn't necessarily foresee this kind of unravelling. | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
We never saw this scenario. People didn't see the crash coming and | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
didn't see that would lead to where we are now. Rather than scrapping | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
over who was right or wrong to start with, the worry now is that | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the grown-ups are not in charge, even now. Reading that speech, the | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
Mansion House speech, you kind of feel like a passenger on a plane | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
weather cap hundred and is saying, the bad news is that we are going | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
to crash into the side of the mountain, but the good news is that | :07:39. | :07:49. | |
:07:49. | :07:49. | ||
the sandwiches are on us. When 100 billion euros bail outs, as Spain | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
got, barely buys you 18 hours in the markets, you get the impression | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
that the European policy elite don't know what to do? It was a | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
sign that they were still desperate to try to preserve the idea that | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
the single currency can still work. The deal unravelled within hours. | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
It was on more generous terms to the Spanish deal, which could have | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
an impact on Sunday. Clearly, the financial package announced by the | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
Governor of the Bank of England was to pre-empt, I think, the collapse | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
of Greece in the eurozone, which I think cannot come quick enough. | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Stick with us. In the face of this doom and gloom, what are Mervyn | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
King and George Osborne doing? Last night, they announced a new scheme | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
that has brought funding for lending. The Bank of England has | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
agreed with the Government to provide billions of pounds, | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
probably up to 80, of cheap credit to bags if they then lend to | :08:47. | :08:56. | |
companies, small businesses and so on to buy houses. It would increase | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
overall bank lending by about 5%. In addition, the Bank of England is | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
also starting, or enhancing, a bank liquidity scheme. This was already | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
put in place last year. It is entirely separate from the first | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
thing. It has a catchy title, extended collateral term repo | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
facility. What it really means is that it will make it easy and | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
cheaper for banks themselves to borrow at least �5 billion every | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
month to cover any shortfalls in the wholesale market between banks. | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
It gives them cash. At the weekend, George Osborne claimed that the | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
crisis was killing off the UK recovery. Last night he claimed | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
there was still action that he there was still action that he | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
could take. We are not powerless in the face of the eurozone debt storm. | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Together, we can deploy new firepower to defend our economy | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
from the crisis on our doorstep. Funding for lending to the family | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
aspiring to own their own home and the business that wants to expand. | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
Liquidity for our high-street banks. So, will these latest measures work | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
when previous ones have not quite seemed to, given the way the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
economy has flatlined in a double- dip recession? Joining me now is | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
the shadow Treasury minister Chris Leslie and, from Cambridge, the | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
Conservative MP Matthew Hancock. He used to be an adviser to the | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
Chancellor before he got demoted and became an MP. Allister Heath is | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
Batty Hancock, what makes you think that these measures will get some | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
growth into the economy when they had and �25 million of quantitative | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
easing, the interest rates, a 20 billion loan guarantee scheme | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
haven't? As you say, we have got very loose monetary policy, both | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
quantitative easing and low interest rates. But that is not | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
being passed on into the real economy. This morning I was talking | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
to stable lads in Newmarket, not particularly well paid, and they | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
were saying that their mortgage rates have gone up in recent months, | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
even though official rates have stayed flat. The proposal, which I | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
think was a very good and timely one yesterday, was to make sure | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
that there's very low official rates, that we have because up the | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
credibility we have as a government to clear our debts, that those are | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
passed on to people with mortgages and people that are running | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
businesses. Therefore, to support them. We have got this very heavily | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
indebted economy. Keeping rates down for people who have got those | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
debts is an important way of making sure people have money in their | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
pockets. If you're stable lads are complaining about the level of | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
interest rates for mortgages, are you arguing that as a result of its | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
measure mortgage rates are going to come down? Well, I hope that will | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
be one of the consequences. Really?! I think if a bank can | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
borrow more cheaply in the money markets, then they can pass on some | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
of that lower interest rate on to their customers. One of the things | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
we have discussed on this programme, Andrew, has been how mortgage rates | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
have been creeping up. I hope that this liquidity support will put a | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
stop to that. Also, I am sure it would put a stop to that if it | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
wasn't for the second reason, also. We know there is this great debt | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
storm in Europe, it appears to be coming to a head. I don't think | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
they can solve that without radical structural reform, which means they | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
are essentially have one economic policy across the eurozone. I think | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
the reason the Spanish bail out that you were talking about didn't | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
work was because if you throw money without a structural change to make | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
sure that they are going to live within their means as a currency, | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
they have got to do that and it is a huge change. We take it that | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
things are terrible in the eurozone, we are trying to work out if the | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
measures of your government are going to help us get through any | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
storm. Let me bring Chris Leslie in. Do you welcome these monetary | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
measures? Well, anything that provides some stimulus to the | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
economy, I think, has to be welcomed. We have sort of been here | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
before, as you were mentioning, as he went through the list of efforts | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
on the Monetary Policy side that the Governor of the Bank of England | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
has taken. The Governor of the Bank of England is, as some papers are | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
reporting, is blinking now. He is saying, gosh, we have got to do | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
something. The problem is that we have a Chancellor fixated on this | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
austerity ideology. It really betrays the fact that I do they | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
have fundamentally got wrong the analysis of why the economy is back | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
in recession, all this is some sort of political device to show they | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
have a different fiscal policy. But they really have to change course | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
now. The Chancellor in particular has to change course. You want them | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
to change course on fiscal policy? As a number of measures to | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
stimulate the economy. Since I have been through this endlessly with | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Labour politicians, from Ed Balls down, you cannot tell us even the | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
size of the fiscal stimulus you would want. That is not fair, in a | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
sense. Well, tell us! If you want us to reel through Labour's 5 point | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
plant... No, what with the fiscal stimulus be? If you look at what | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
happened when VAT was first reduced by Alastair Darling, the Institute | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
of Fiscal Studies talked about the positive stimulus that provided at | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
that time. We believe that there is a case, not the only thing we | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
should do, but a temporary VAT cut would help rebuild confidence. | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
going to interrupt you because you're not answering my question. I | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
know what you're matches would be. What I am saying is, since you are | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
now saying this is not enough, we need to move on fiscal policy, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
perfectly respectable position to take, I am asking you to tell us by | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
what volume would your fiscal policy be different from Mr | :15:03. | :15:13. | |
:15:13. | :15:13. | ||
All we can do is learn from the past. You can't answer my question? | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
I'm trying to. We can't crystal- ball gazers and guess how many | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
millions. Why not? There was an appreciable stimulus effective in | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
at 2009. Looking at the bank bonus levy, helping small businesses, | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
youth unemployment. I will try one more time. I will give you the same | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
answer. Just give me a figure. If you were in power today, where you | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
are at the moment, how much extra would you borrow in this financial | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
year? We have put a figure on a reduction of 2.5% in VAT | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
temporarily. What is your overall borrowing figure? A 12 billion | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
pound cost. 12 billion pound more? You have to recognise, it you can't | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
deal with a fundamental failures in our economy, the recession, to | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
stimulate growth and job creation, all the talk about money or | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
loosening policy will not do it. Isn't the hard fact, Alastair, the | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
fact that the Alastair Darling fiscal policy being implemented by | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
the government, you could barely get a cigarette paper between them. | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
They are the same. I agree. One want to borrow 130 billion, the | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
others 140 bn. That's a small difference, not even 1%. It won't | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
have an effect on anything, so we need to think about, is there a | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
difference at policies? The Government is obsessed with | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
lowering the cost of credit. I'm not sure how much of a difference | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
it will make. We will end up cutting the cost of borrowing by | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
0.2% for people with mortgages and so on the Falls of how much of a | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
difference will that make? Do you believe Mr Hancock when he says | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
mortgage rates could come down? possibly by 0.2%. The problem is, | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
does the simple reason why the cost of mortgages and loans have gone up. | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
New regulations imposed by the Government, to force banks to hold | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
more liquid capital. In a recession, they push up the cost of credit and | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
reduce the availability. If you see mortgage rates coming down by 0.1%, | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
that's going to help them? course. If you put 100 pound in the | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
pocket every month of a stable lad, you would get more spending in the | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
economy. What is interesting is that... Where does �100 come from | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
if you cut mortgage rates by 0.1%? Alastair thinks it will be 0.1% but | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
I hope it will be more than bad. I was talking to a stable lad this | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
morning whose mortgage had gone up by 100 pound a month and I want to | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
stop that happening by making sure banks have got liquidity but in the | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
studio you have somebody saying the Government must cut faster and | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
somebody saying the Government must cut slower, so the Government is | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
probably in the right place. We couldn't do these things and get | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
the low interest rates passed through if we didn't have a | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
credible plan and be prepared to official rates at 7%, imagine | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
watching this programme with a mortgage, imagine what that would | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
mean? Matthews analysis is totally wrong. He's trying to claim the | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
Chancellor's fiscal strategy is the reason for all the good things we | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
could point 2. It's the factory have sovereignty, we were not in | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
the euro, which has given us some degree of opportunity because of | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
the funding costs and capital costs, but what is holding us back is the | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
tax rises and cuts the Chancellor made which took confident about, | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
reduced demand, long before we got into the eurozone crisis. They | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
weakened our defences when we need a strong economy. I'm going to | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
bring in Gavin here. The Government is clearly in difficulty. It's also | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
interesting are the Labour argument that we are in a crisis caused by | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
too much borrowing so we should borrow more. You almost have both | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
sides are doing now. The Chancellor said last night the answer to debt | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
is no more debt, and that's the basis of the austerity plan. It's | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
more of us about having mortgages, being able to borrow, which is fine | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
if you are borrowing for growth but I don't see there's going to be a | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
huge demand from companies wanting to expand now. This money is going | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
to be sought after by companies who fear they going to the wall and | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
maybe that's a good thing. I don't think we should pretend it's going | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
to stimulate growth. I just hope if this money comes, it goes from the | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
banks to the small businesses if they want to expand and cheaper | :20:21. | :20:29. | |
mortgages and does not get used by the banks to reduce the bankers | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
debts and pay bonuses. In effect, this is the Bank of England putting | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
money directly into the private sector. It's quite a dangerous move | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
because what's going to happen is the Bank of England will end up | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
with vast amounts of private sector debt on its balance sheet, so will | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
take on quite a lot of public and private sector debt, corporate debt, | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
mortgage debt, credit card debt and so on. It will do that with some | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
safeguards to make sure it doesn't have too much risk, but if the | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
economy tanks, and a lot of these loans go bad, the taxpayer would | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
indirectly pick up the money. There is a big risk here. There is a risk | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
the banks make riskier loans and are less prudent with their lending | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
because they know they could pass on this debt to the Bank of England. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
I think there is a real risk here, and we have seen such a prime | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
lending in the past, and that's not a good idea, either. Matthew | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
Hancock, what evidence is there that small companies and households | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
on mass are desperate to borrow more? Many people I speak to are | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
paying off their debts, fed up with debt. They've had too much. They | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
are tightening their belts, as small companies and individuals. | :21:51. | :22:00. | |
It's easy for you to generalise. Some companies and households... | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
There are first-time buyers who want to get on the housing ladder | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
and buy houses. This business is expanding and find it difficult to | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
access credit, so in an economy, like this, some people are doing | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
what you said that others do want to expand. Its basic economics. If | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
you make the supply of credit easier, you will have a lower price | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
for the. The or a European banking crisis. The point that was made | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
which said it's very important this gets of banks' balance sheets and | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
into the real economy, that crucial, and that has got to be designed in | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
a way to make sure that it gets into the real economy. It's about | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
getting his official rates. Not just into the banks. It's the | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
astonishing lack of grip on economic history which for most | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
scary thing that from the Government. The reason is, if you | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
look of the 1930s, when they had these cuts in expenditure and | :23:08. | :23:16. | |
faster tax rises, as you know, in Japan, the balance sheet... In the | :23:16. | :23:25. | |
1930s, the economy grew very fast. It did. The British economy came | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
out of depression in the Thirties bought the it took a shorter time | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
For the Ed Balls told us this morning, in the 1930s, the Treasury | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
said we have to cut and that's why we stayed in depression. By the | :23:42. | :23:51. | |
mid- 1930s, the British economy was growing by 4%. We will trade blogs | :23:51. | :24:01. | |
:24:01. | :24:01. | ||
online. There is a very strong rebound. Not now, though, is there? | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
People confuse US history where there was a depression. The OK we | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
will leave it there. Gentle man, thank you very much. Everybody else | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
go back to their day jobs. Well, the European economy might be | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
merrily trundling off to hell in a handcart, but at Westminster's | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
equivalent of the X Factor, the Leveson Inquiry, it's been an | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
exciting week, with a line up of political stars strutting their | :24:26. | :24:36. | |
:24:36. | :24:38. | ||
stuff before the Inquiry's very own Simon Cowell, Robert Jay QC. So, in | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
case you missed them, here are the big hitters' best bits. | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
Were your aides involved in using the media to force Mr Blair's | :24:49. | :24:58. | |
resignation? I would hope not. they involved? I would hope not. I | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
have no evidence of that. In the dinner, it became apparent in | :25:03. | :25:11. | |
discussion that Mr Murdoch said that he really didn't like our | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
European policies. This was no surprise to me. He didn't like our | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
European policies and he wished me to change European policies. If we | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
couldn't change them, his papers could not and would not support the | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
Conservative government. As I recall, he used the word we weren't | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
referring to his newspapers. He didn't make the usual mob towards | :25:37. | :25:45. | |
editorial independence. There was a dinner with Rebekah Brooks. Just | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
the four of you? No, a large number of people were there. I was at the | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
very end of the table. By the children, so to speak. I only had a | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
very fleeting interchanges with Rupert Murdoch before the dinner | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
and I said goodbye at the end. I felt I was an observer more than | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
anything else. This idea that somehow the Conservative Party and | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
News International got together and said, you give us your support and | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
we will way through this merger, which, by the way, we didn't even | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
know about at that stage, it's nonsense. It was sent by Rebekah | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
Brooks to you, 4:45pm. I understand the issue with the Times newspaper. | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
Let's discuss over country supper soon. I'm rooting for you tomorrow. | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Not just as a personal friend, but because professionally we are | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
definitely in this together. Speech of your life? Yes, he can. When you | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
are at your constituency at weekends, did you see her every | :27:00. | :27:07. | |
weekend or most weekends? 2008, 2009? Not every weekend. Most | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
weekends? Mrs Cameron keeps a better weekend Diary record than I | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
do. She reckons we probably didn't see them more than on average once | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
every six weeks. That is a better answer than the one I was able to | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
give you earlier. Did we learn anything this week? We learned what | :27:28. | :27:37. | |
we already knew. Gordon Brown won't admit to briefing his people. John | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
Major was quite a decent bloke but not really in control. The boat had | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
a grudge matches against the media and thought they had been badly | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
treated by the media so they turned up to put the boot in, fair enough. | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
I think Gordon Brown is trying to rewrite the narrative that it lost | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
the election because he was hopeless and very unpopular. He's | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
now trying to say it was because the Murdoch press had a vendetta | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
against him, and it simply not true. I would be recalling these | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
witnesses if I was Lord Everson, because her were glaring | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
differences. Rebekah Brooks says she got confirmation to run the | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
story about Gordon Brown's child. Gordon Brown said it didn't take | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
place, the phone call with Rupert Murdoch. One of them is lying. | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
David Cameron seem to be doing pretty well. He was handling it, | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
like an opening batsman. Pretty useless medium-paced bowling, I | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
would say. Then came at Rebekah Brooks and it fell apart. But it | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
was just embarrassing. The Prime Minister, he's on those terms with | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
the newspaper editor. And also, a newspaper chief-executive kowtows | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
to a Prime Minister like that. is the kind of relationship the | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Murdoch people had built up with Tony Blair, his people in the late | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
1990s and the early part of the 21st century. Despite what Mr Brown | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
says, they continued with him. David Cameron said he wasn't going | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
to go that way. He ended up in many ways, even closer than they had | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
been. They didn't fly halfway around the world to Australia and | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
couldn't remember quite how that happened, actually. Presumably he | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
got on a plane. It was a private jet, as I recall. That's why he | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
conveniently can remember. He suffered amnesia 22 times. David | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
Cameron was not making headway in the polls, not convincing his own | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
party so decided to embrace the Murdoch family and he's now paying | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
the consequences because he got far too close. Lord Everson was | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
supposed that the press in the dock but I think he has put him in the | :29:58. | :30:07. | |
dock. Where does that leave the The Prime Minister made it clear | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
that he doesn't want such regulation. So what are they will | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
implement it or not, I don't know. Only the British could come up with | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
a system where the Prime Minister appoints someone to work out how to | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
regulate the press, and this guy then turns to the Prime Minister | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
and says, how would you like me to regulate the press? Incredible, | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
quite extraordinary. But I've never understood the point of the Leveson | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
Inquiry in the first place. There are criminal sanctions for | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
journalists that hack into phones, they have been used before and can | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
be used again. It's, if the over- the-top, nobody is under both... | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
The police investigation is going to settle this. Exactly, it should | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
have been left to the police. We knew there was good to be a | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
regulatory system anyway. There are still more hearings to go on. But | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
it is party conference time. Got you, there! Relax, you haven't | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
missed the Olympics. George Galloway's Respect party is so | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
unconventional that they hold their conference in July. Where better | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
than sunny Bradford, where Gorgeous George sensationally won the by- | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
election back in March? Is that trying for the start of something | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
big or just one of these many periodic flashes in the | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
parliamentary pan? Len Tingle has been to Bradford to find out. | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
the most sensational result in British by-election history, bar | :31:32. | :31:40. | |
none, represents the Bradford spring. But it has been a much | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
slower journey towards that Bradford spring. Within hours of | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
his by-election victory, George Galloway boasted that Respect | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
candidates would flood the upcoming local council elections, seizing | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
the balance of power from a Labour group just two short of a majority. | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
In the event, just 12 candidates came forward, did reasonably well, | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
winning five seats, one of them hitting the headlines by toppling | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
veteran Labour council leader from his seat. But it wasn't quite | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
enough to make a difference inside City Hall. As Respect grabbed the | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
headlines, Labour grabbed a few seats of their own, largely from | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
the Liberal Democrat and Conservatives in different parts of | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
the city. That left them with fortified councillors -- 45 | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
councillors, exactly half of those on the authority. With three greens | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
supporting them, that gives them an automatic majority leaving | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
Respect's 5 council has not holding the balance of power but out in the | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
cold. It leaves them in the same position as a number of parties in | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
Bradford, just short of the Liberal Democrats. We will listen to their | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
point or Huw, but I will be concentrating on delivering for the | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
people of Bradford and delivering on the manifesto. It was a | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
disappointment that we didn't have more councillors. But I think what | :33:02. | :33:11. | |
we can do is ask the awkward questions, really raise the issues | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
that our constituents are saying to us. The awkward squad's success is | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
having an effect. This was Ed Miliband in Bradford just last | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
weekend, addressing Labour's regional spring conference. We lost | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
the by-election. We made gains overall in the council elections, | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
but it was a struggle for us. A struggle against Respect. We need | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
to learn the lessons of that. Tomorrow, George Galloway steps up | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
on the platform at his party conference. His message, as far as | :33:46. | :33:54. | |
he is concerned Respect's journey Now, it has been a difficult week | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
for the coalition with Nick Clegg refusing to back David Cameron or | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
his decision to spare Jeremy Hunt and investigation into whether he | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
breached the Ministerial Code. It is just another example of the | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
tensions that ebb and flow around the coalition as they head towards | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
the halfway point in the parliamentary term. So, what do we | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
know about how the coalition functions and how it will develop | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
as the next election is? We are joined by Peter Riddell, the man | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
behind the Institute for the Government's report into war of | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
this. We are almost at the mid-term. There are obviously tensions. We | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
are not used to coalitions in peace time in this country. Has it | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
worked? That is the key point. We are not used to them. A lot of | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
politicians, people in the media, commentators, they still there soon | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
we will be backed where majority. Most countries are soon that | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
coalitions are the norm. There was a lot of experience from overseas | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
and Scotland, which used to have coalitions, on how to work it. It | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
is quite normal, or it is normal for single-party governments to run | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
into trouble mid-term, but it is also normal for coalitions. | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
Coalitions have formal agreements. A lot of the boxes were ticked. Not | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
all, but most of them. How do you move onto an election when the | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
constituent parties are going to fight each other? What we are due | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
in our report, A Game of Two Hearts, is that you have to think about it | :35:27. | :35:37. | |
now. There is not the political will there to go into it as a | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
coalition, but the Government has to go on as problems emerge. | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
Although the coalition agreement has, in a sense, run out of steam, | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
in that a lot of the things they have agreed have either been done | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
or kicked into the long grass, there is not the political will | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
within the coalition to come up with a Mark two coalition agreement | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
to see them through to the next election? Not a big agreement. When | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
you say it has not been achieved, it has been achieved legislatively. | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
The key is implementation. They passed a reform bill, but we are a | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
long way from seeing Universal credit. The Health Bill has been | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
passed, a long wait to go until implementation. Even in that the | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
agreement, there is a lot of legislation still in the Queen's | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
speech. There is still a lot to be done. What I do argue is, at this | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
stage, you're not going to get wildly radical new areas emerging. | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
There is still a lot to do on implementation. Isn't there also | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
pressure from the Lib Dems and the Tory backbenchers that as the next | :36:46. | :36:53. | |
election approaches, far from having a marked tour agreement, | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
they should start to go their separate ways? We had an event with | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Jack McConnell, First Minister of Scotland. He has an interesting | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
take on this. He said, yes, you're bound to have people fighting each | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
other. But you have got to balance that with what is necessary to make | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
government work. To produce a growth agenda, respond to difficult | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
events, that has got to be done. You recognise that you cannot do | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
really controversial things that will divide them. You can't to | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
another health plan. What you can do is get a little win for either | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
party. That is crucial. Recognise you are going to have more | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
differentiation, but try to have the internal self discipline. The | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
real problem is the big challenges like on spending. Can you take | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
difficult decisions that will last after the election? But that is one | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
thing they have stuck by. Although Nick Clegg may not want to support | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
Jeremy Hunt, there is then leaked half of the budget, all of the rest | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
of it, one thing in his coalition where it has been difficult to see | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
any unity has been on deficit reduction. You can argue that shows | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
the success of the coalition. That is the big thing. From the Lib Dem | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
point of view, they can say, we stuck to it, it was vitally | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
necessary... That might be the only thing they agree on. Look at Greece | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
and Spain, so on. We are probably going to have another spending | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
review before the election. The paid on public spending is far from | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
over. Has this coalition done better or worse than you would have | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
expected? Well, I take Peter's point. We are not used to coalition | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
and we didn't know what to expect. I actually thought it would only | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
last a year. Now I am convinced that there go the whole course. | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Vince Cable talking about disengagement before the election, | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
maybe they will break up six months before. A lot of the troops low | :38:46. | :38:56. | |
:38:56. | :39:02. | ||
Do so it would wind-up if he got Whether the Lib Dems de wave runner | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
six or nine months before the next election, we may have to get used | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
to coalitions. As the polls stand at the moment, looking at what | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
happens as elections approach, the most likely outcome is a hung | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
parliament? That would be extremely difficult for the Conservative | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
Party to swallow. The assumption was that we will put up with it, | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
everything has to be focused on winning a majority in 2015. Much of | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
the tension between Cameron and the troops comes from a feeling on the | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
right of the party that he doesn't really want an outright victory, it | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
quite suits him to be in coalition, and he will not be what is | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
necessary to secure an outright Conservative victory. At the moment, | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
we are a long way away, but at the moment the likely outcome is Labour | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
will be the largest party after the next election. They could form a | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
coalition with the Lib Dems. This is one of the reasons why people | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
did not like continental politics. No matter what the election result | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
is, the balance of power is always held by the same folk, even if they | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
do badly? This is produced by first past the post. It doesn't matter | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
what the system is. Will people take kindly to the Lib Dems, after | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
being in bed for five years with the Tories, saying, we got enough | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
of you, now we are getting a bed with Labour? If that is how the | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
electorate votes, we have to cope with that. It is what will happen | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
in closed rooms after the vote. the electorate did not produce a | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
majority government last time. This scenario is perfectly reasonable. | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
We have to make the best of it. Even if the Lib Dems lose 20 seats | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
at the next election, but Labour gets about 300, the Lib Dems will | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
still be in power? Not necessarily. It doesn't matter how the Lib Dems | :40:52. | :41:00. | |
do, they still end up with power? As Andrew was saying, what we might | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
see, a remote possibility, is a minority government... Up which is | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
what we thought was going to happen at the last election? If it did | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
happen, effectively, in 1974. That could happen again. We have learned | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
from this experience. We spent our lives with majority governments. | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
You've got to learn the lessons from abroad, you have to plan. The | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
social services have a plan, the politicians have a plan for | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
scenarios which may be unpalatable. But that is the card that the | :41:36. | :41:45. | |
Politicians get plenty of criticism. Not on this programme, obviously, | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
but I am told it does happen on others. There are occasions where | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
parliamentarians make headlines for all of the right reasons. | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
Yesterday's debate of mental health was such a case. In 1996, I | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
suffered quite a deep depression. It was related to work issues and | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
other things going on in my life. That is the first time I have ever | :42:10. | :42:18. | |
spoken to anybody about it. Like a lot of men, what do you do is try | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
to deal with it yourself. You do not talk to people. I just hope you | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
realise what I am saying is very difficult for me now. I thought | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
very long and hard. I didn't make the decision until I put my notes | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
down to do it. It is hard because you do not recognise, first of all, | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
that it creeps up on you very slowly. Also, in politics, we are | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
designed to think that somehow if you admit fault or fail to eat you | :42:44. | :42:52. | |
are going to be -- or failure, you're going to be looked upon in a | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
disparaging way in terms of the electorate and your peers. Whether | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
this naked admission means any future ministerial career is | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
blighted forever, I was a minister in the last government and I think | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
most people thought I did a reasonable job on both sides of a | :43:07. | :43:16. | |
house. I think we have got to talk about mental health in this place, | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
and people who have got an experience of it personally in this | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
house. I am delighted to say that I have been a practising fruitcake | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
for 31 years. It was 13 years ago, at St John's Wood tube station and | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
I remember it vividly, that I was visited by the obsessive compulsive | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
disorder. Over the past 31 years, it has played a fairly significant | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
part in my life. On occasions, it is manageable. On occasions, it | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
becomes quite difficult. It takes you to some quite dark places. But | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
I operate to the rule of four. I have to do everything even. I have | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
to wash my hands four times. I have to go in and out of a room four | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
times. My wife and children say I resemble an extra from Riverdance | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
aside bounce in and out of the run. Switching lights of four times. Woe | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
betide me if I switch off a lie to five times, then I have to do it | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
another three times. One in four people to experience mental illness | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
at some point in their lives. I also have experience of severe | :44:30. | :44:40. | |
:44:40. | :44:42. | ||
depression, at the happiest time of mind -- my life, I experienced | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
postnatal depressing. I am sure many people in this House will know | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
exactly what it feels like to feel that your family were genuinely | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
better off without you. Two experienced the paralysis that can | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
come with severe depression. I have been pretty healthy for five years. | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
When you let your guard down, this aggressive friend comes and smacks | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
you ride in the face. I was on holiday and I took a beautiful | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
photograph of my son carrying a fishing rod. There was my beautiful | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
son, carrying a fishing rod. I was glowing with pride. Then the voice | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
starts, if you do not get rid of that photograph, your child will | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
dive. You fight those voices for a couple of hours. You know you | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
should not give in to them because they should not be there. And it | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
ain't going to happen. In the end, you're not going to risk it so you | :45:32. | :45:42. | |
:45:42. | :45:44. | ||
give in to the voices and then you Charles Walker joins me now. | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. Kevin Jones said he found it | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
difficult to do what he did in the Commons yesterday though he was | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
glad he did. I heard you say you didn't find it difficult. When I | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
decided to do it, I didn't find it difficult but liberating, to be | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
honest. It's a bit like Crocodile Dundee when I ask him, what do you | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
do when you have a problem? Well, we tell Wally and everybody tells | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
everybody else and is not a problem. It may go on being part of my life, | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
and I'm just very relieved. I'm the same person as I was yesterday. I'm | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
just more honest. What brought this about? How do these remarkable | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
speech is take place? I can only speak for myself. Since I answered | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
Parliament seven years ago, I have campaigned on mental health and | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
spoken about issues. I'm a chairman of the All Party Mental Health | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
Group, and we are changing the mood at the moment. The mood of the | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
country can change of course, and we have a very active all-party | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
group. There is a bill coming for the to end the discrimination | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
against MPs, serving on company boards, so the time is right. We | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
had a backbench debate yesterday and the time seemed right to give | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
up some momentum and both Kevin and I have received extraordinary | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
number of e-mails. Tell me about the response. Overwhelming. It has | :47:14. | :47:20. | |
been quite emotional, as well. People from all walks of life, | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
doing all sorts of jobs saying thank you for giving us a voice | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
because they feel frightened, excluded, ashamed. And we can't | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
have that any more. We can have the NHS doing great things but we have | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
to have society embracing these people. It couldn't have happened | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
20 years ago, could it? You had a very sympathetic press this morning | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
but I look back at some of the old Press, and bonkers Bruno locked up | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
a from of the Sun newspaper. In times gone by, the press would have | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
been more hostile. They would have been. We criticise other press a | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
lot. But let me say, the press are getting their act together on this. | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
In the last four years, the press have decided to approach this in a | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
responsible way and real improvements are being seen. We | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
could all do more but the press is now beginning to play its part. | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
Hard to see this taking place in a newspaper office. Yes, it would be | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
hard to admit to. I admire everybody for coming out with it in | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
public and I hope it's a sign that times are changing and I think it | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
started with Alastair Campbell talking about his depression. | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
Suddenly, a dam broke in a certain way, but there are still industries | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
in the City, for example, where it's very hard to admit to any kind | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
of mental frailty. I just hope people who suffer with the same | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
illnesses feel encouraged. I agree and it's fantastic that MPs | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
speaking out like that has put mental health at the centre of | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
debate. Normally, it never gets mentioned. I think it's great and I | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
congratulate you, Charles. Can I just say, very quickly, my mental | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
health problems have given me great personal strength and that's the | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
interesting part. A lot of people are doing extraordinary jobs in our | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
mental health problems but it made the more capable. We are going to | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
get behind Gavin Barwell's Bill, because that will give momentum | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
over the next year. I hope the collective front benchers of | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
recognise something important is happening here. Mental health has | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
not had people to speak out for it. When the cuts come, it always the | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
mental health services to get the biggest cuts. People 10 to make | :49:49. | :49:57. | |
less noise, but we are making noise now. It is new territory, like | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
jumping into a cold swimming pool. But I really hope that Kevin and I | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
are reaching out to one of the people out there and there could be | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
some hope about their bad things are going to get better. In five | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
years' time, things will be better for me than they are now in 10 | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
years' time, much better and I think that would be a real | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
achievement. Some think politics could be proud of one at this time | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
we are struggling. Let's hope the media continues to grow. Thank you | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
for coming in and speaking to us today and for yesterday's | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
contribution in the Commons. Right, it's time now to look back at the | :50:35. | :50:45. | |
:50:45. | :50:49. | ||
political week gone by in 60 It's been a bit of a 1 draw Week in | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
politics with plenty of PMT, pre- match tension, but no last minute | :50:52. | :51:02. | |
:51:02. | :51:03. | ||
winner. Robert Jay, he faced a flat back four of George Osborne, David | :51:03. | :51:12. | |
Cameron, John Major and Gordon Brown. Nick Clegg refused to back | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
the coalition's Culture Secretary. Elsewhere, there will be a | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
referendum for Falkland Islanders on staying British, penguins will | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
not get a boat but here is a picture of them anyway. -- a vote. | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
More pain for Spain and a message for the Church of England on its | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
row over gay marriage. Once again, their talk about the things which | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
obsesses them, sex. Despite that, the Government is seldom on, as, we | :51:42. | :51:50. | |
hope, will England. -- sold on. a soldier on Nov. | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
As we've heard, the argument over gay marriage rages on, with the | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
Church of England warning that government promises to exempt | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
religious organisations from carrying out same-sex marriages | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
will not survive challenges in the European Courts. One supporter of a | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
change in the law is former Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris who joins | :52:06. | :52:13. | |
us now. Welcome to the programme. One critic of the plans is our | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
guest Andrew Pierce. We just bought a people with incredible forward | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
planning. Andrew, you are gay. You wrote a piece in the Daily Mail are | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
doing against gay marriage. Why it wouldn't you just want a simple | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
quality? This is an argument about the word, marriage, because every | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
gay person I know Ynysybwl partnership regarded as a marriage, | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
and what we are going to see is an incredible battle with the Church | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
because the genie is out of the bottle. The Prime Minister's | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
parliamentary private secretary said a religious premises will just | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
have to accept that gay marriages can take place on their territory. | :52:52. | :53:01. | |
I don't think it is for politicians to tell the Church who they can and | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
can't marry on their premises. I don't agree with a Catholic | :53:04. | :53:11. | |
Church's teaching on homosexuality, of course I don't. Nor the Anglian | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
church who allows the because to be gay as long as they don't practise. | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
How the Archbishop of Canterbury and forces that, I'm yet to be told. | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
I think we're in a good position as gay men and women, with a civil | :53:23. | :53:33. | |
:53:33. | :53:33. | ||
party should and heterosexual can't. What is your response? It and he | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
doesn't want to get married to his partner, then don't get married, | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
but you shouldn't be are doing, unless you have a bit more of an | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
argument against it, for that right to be available to other people. | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
Organisations that represent gay people including some that you | :53:51. | :53:58. | |
support, say there is a demand for gay people to have the same access | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
to civil marriage, as everybody else. And obviously, there are | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
positions against that for the not had a sexual positions, but | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
conservative positions. Many Conservatives oppose the idea | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
because there is a marriage is special and different from civil | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
partnerships and therefore should not be available to same-sex | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
couples. You can't have it both ways, Conservatives. You can't say | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
it is special and therefore should not be available and then say it's | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
the same as civil partnership and why can't you be happy? It's not | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
about being a Conservative but how I see it. I just always believed | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
when this will publish its legislation came around, when Jack | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
Straw said it's different marriage, marriage is a man and woman, Jack | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
Straw is not on the record changing his position of course,... Is that | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
your position? The Iping civil partnership is a fantastic | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
invention. It's not marriage. it's not. That's what you think the | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
don't close it down for everybody else for the stone wall were not | :55:06. | :55:13. | |
campaigning for this. It wasn't in the manifestos. It wasn't in the | :55:13. | :55:20. | |
Liberal Democrats gain manifesto. Liberal Democrats, I admit... | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
of the parties did. You did not put it in the manifesto puts up we put | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
the proposal to our conference in 20th September 10. Six months after | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
the election. We have led the way. Polls show that there is broad | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
support for this but the only argument Andrew made against the | :55:40. | :55:47. | |
proposition, and that is the ridiculous idea that religions | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
would be forced to do civil marriages. This is about civil | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
marriage. The Government are not proposing to allow an opt-in by | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
religious organisations who are happy to do it. No religious | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
organisation has been forced to do civil partnerships against its will | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
and they don't accept for a moment this self-serving argument you | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
mentioned that they will be forced by human rights. It absolutely | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
wrong. If the only argument they have, but they will be forced to in | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
a civil marriage. Crispin Blunt said this week that would has | :56:25. | :56:33. | |
premises will be required to do so. He says civil marriages. The if you | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
find people saying one thing is to back up Godwin, that's fine but if | :56:37. | :56:47. | |
:56:47. | :56:48. | ||
What he is saying is that this only affects a civil marriages and the | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
Church is not forced to do do civil marriages so why would it be forced | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
to do gays civil marriages? There is a point, the there is an overlap | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
between the Church of England in particular and marriage because of | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
the links between the Church and State in this country but you can | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
separate but it it was needed without it impinging on | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
establishment or religious freedom, so I'm very keen on a religious | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
freedoms and if people don't want to do religious services, they | :57:24. | :57:33. | |
don't have to. It's different from the adoption argument you made. | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
you be the voice of reason? I think we should grow up and get over the | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
whole thing. I cannot understand the argument is undermines marriage | :57:40. | :57:48. | |
of. The churches are doing it. cannot understand the argument that | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
vicars may or may not personally wish to marry gay couples, fine of | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
four for that's not going to be necessary. I don't see why it has | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
to occupy the time and space it does. Do we have any evidence that | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
it of England and Catholic Church actually speak for their | :58:04. | :58:14. | |
congregations? Their congregations are dwindling, of course. Is it | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
right for the state to interfere? They are free to do their own thing | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
and should not have a veto on civil marriages. That's our businesses. | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
The Church of England doesn't allow its own clergy to be properly gay, | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
so how on earth, be involved in same-sex marriage? We have to leave | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
it there. Thank you. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC | :58:40. | :58:44. |